Catelynn (and Tyler)

[ghoulina]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I assume B & T must have given them their phone number. AND they did attend Cate and Tyler's wedding. So some of the boundary issues are definitely on them.

I agree. They're definitely not blameless. But I do think they're probably just genuinely SUPER nice people who are easy to take advantage of. A lot of pressure from Bethany, Cate's standard manipulation - and they got in over the head. I just think a reputable adoption agency should never have let it get this far. 

 

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

See, this does make me feel a bit bad for Cate. I don't just think Cate has an unhealthy fixation on Carly- I think Cate has an emotional attachment to Teresa

This. 1000% I speculated awhile back that this was the core issue. Cate is living vicariously through her daughter, and Teresa is the mother she never had. 

[Tatum]

2 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I agree. They're definitely not blameless. But I do think they're probably just genuinely SUPER nice people who are easy to take advantage of. A lot of pressure from Bethany, Cate's standard manipulation - and they got in over the head. I just think a reputable adoption agency should never have let it get this far. 

 

Good point. Boundaries were crossed from all sides, which has contributed to C&T's entitlement.

[evilmindatwork]

I am almost constantly annoyed by C&T and think they're terrible parents to the cute little superNova. But I am convinced that Bethanny and Dawn (Idk about B&T) were shady with Cate. Regardless of what the written agreement actually says, I am sure Dawn gushed about how wonderful open adoption is, regaled with stories about other girls who gave up their babies going on Disney vacations with adoptive parents and kids, etc. Dawn talks out of both sides of her mouth and very rarely tells them the whole truth. They may have looked at it and thought that the paper agreement was a guideline, but the happy stories were what they were getting. They were minors with absolutely no advocates on their side at the time. They're plenty old enough now to figure out what's happening, and live their lives accordingly, but they made a heavy & hugely consequential decision with very little help before they were old enough to legally buy a pack of cigarettes. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by evilmindatwork

[eskimo]

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

See, this does make me feel a bit bad for Cate. I don't just think Cate has an unhealthy fixation on Carly- I think Cate has an emotional attachment to Teresa. I think Cate is hurt by what she perceives as rejection from Teresa, that isn't even directly related to Carly. Cate wants to call up Teresa and chat her up, the way I would call up my mom, or my aunt, or my sister in law. I think maybe she thought once she had Nova, they'd just be two mothers trading mom stories.

 

As far as why Teresa puts up with it, I don't think it's just pressure from the minions and worries about bad PR for other adoptive couples. Teresa is frustrated with Cate, but that doesn't mean she doesn't care about her. She probably knows Cate is not well emotionally, and  I'm sure she feels horrible adding another rejection to what is already a long list of people who have dropped the ball on Cate, but Carly's safety and wellbeing is Teresa's primary responsibility.

I think this hits the nail right on the head.  And I think Teresa genuinely cares for Cate and gave her more leeway than she might have otherwise.  I think if Cate and Tyler would have been mature about the situation none of this would be happening.  I don't think B&T want to cut C&T off, but they might have to.  If Teresa wanted to erase Cate she wouldn't have given Cate that bracelet (necklace?) in the hospital that she and Carly would both have replicas of, to show the bond the three of them had.  This is not to mean that T thought C should be a regular fixture in their lives, but that she recognizes their emotional connection.  I really think it hurts B&T that they have been forced to take these steps.  C&T blew it.

Edited October 26, 2016 by eskimo
typo

[EmeraldGirl]

Dawn said these exact words (on 16&P), "This adoption plan will look and feel the way you want it to". So I have no idea what two teenagers made of the printed words about it not being legally binding. Where the hell was Kim? Not Cate's guardian, but couldn't she have gone in for the meetings? Someone had to take them - they weren't even driving yet and she was there at the baby handoff. But then she herself overstepped when she thought she could contact B&T. Not a bunch of geniuses at work here.

I just can't believe something is coming up yet again as a problem. Hell, I want Teresa to be MY mother, so I get Cate's attachment.  It's just a shame that she tiptoes around Tyler being a douche, and she has to tell him nicely that all she cares about are the visits and not social media crap. Although she went there herself and blurted out something about Teresa being barren, didn't she? They both definitely can jump into angry white trash in a flash (is that poetic? Well, it rhymed). Look at Cate yipping and yapping with Simon about the reunion. It was a fight between Amber and Farrah, why was Cate even a part of it? 

[eskimo]

3 hours ago, evilmindatwork said:

 

While Carly is legally B&T's daughter, I think seeing the pain Cate obviously still feels about this adoption has made me see adoption in a newer, less positive light, she made the best decision back then but she was just a kid and didn't really understand what she was agreeing to.  Add in shady Bethany and that's just another layer into the gas lighting some of these birth mothers deal with at a very vulnerable time in their lives. 

IMO, usually once there is an unplanned teenage pregnancy there is going to be pain, any way you slice it.  Abortion brings pain, adoption brings pain, and parenting as a teenager brings a certain pain.  Remember C&T's situation at the time.  She lived with their abusive, drug using parents in a completely chaotic house.  The question really is who's pain is it going to be?  Cate's pain of adoption or Carly's pain of neglect and possibly abuse, similar to the shell shock Cate endured?  If Cate can't take care of Nova in much, much better circumstances, what fresh hell would Carly have been brought up in?  Where would they all be now if they'd kept Carly, with or without MTV money?  Cate made the right choice for Carly despite any pain she suffers now. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by eskimo

[ReadMeLattice]

This definitely hasn't made me see adoption in a less positive light. It's made me see Cate and Tyler in a less positive light. 

They may or may not have been deceived to an extent when they were young, but previously they both called it a "semi open" adoption. They know the rules they've broken. They may have been fed stories, but they also 1) would have otherwise raised Carly in a home with at least two abusive addicts and 2) haven't kept the agreements they fully know they had (not talking about them on screen, sharing photos online). So it's hard for me to feel that bad for them in that regard. They could choose to keep the agreements they have now, and they repeatedly do not. They also haven't gone to school and neither one works, which was supposedly part of the reason for the adoption. I do feel bad that both of them were severely abused throughout their childhoods. But that's unfortunately not related to the adoption except that it made their environment less conducive to raising a child. 

I'm sorry but regardless of Bethany's relative shadiness, it was a legal adoption and Carly only has one set of parents. Parents that are being woefully mistreated. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Lm2162

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

2 hours ago, Birdee said:

Re: Carly running to C&T when shes' 18.

I never see that happening, but before this debacle I could easily see her being a good, well-meaning person and visiting on her own. I'm my mind Carly stands around looking wide-eyed wearing a tastefully expensive cashmere sweater politely nibbling on a hotdog cooked on the squirrel orgy grill while C&T run around in wife beaters and zebra hoodies drinking 40s and telling Carly what she's been missing her whole life.

Oh, Birdee, this made me giggle so hard. It would be even funnier if it wasn't so darn true....

[Tatum]

54 minutes ago, EmeraldGirl said:

Dawn said these exact words (on 16&P), "This adoption plan will look and feel the way you want it to". So I have no idea what two teenagers made of the printed words about it not being legally binding.

Well, that was technically true. The written agreement was worded how C&T wanted- with visits, pictures, and videos. The question was, did Dawn make it clear there was a difference between an adoption plan, and how the next 18 years would actually go?

 

The real issue here is, did Dawn technically tell the truth, knowing that how she was explaining things would deliberately misrepresent the nature of an open adoption to C&T , or was the misunderstanding an honest mistake? Or was there no misunderstanding, and C&T are practicing selective memory years later?

 

1 hour ago, evilmindatwork said:

I am almost constantly annoyed by C&T and think they're terrible parents to the cute little superNova. But I am convinced that Bethanny and Dawn (Idk about B&T) were shady with Cate. Regardless of what the written agreement actually says, I am sure Dawn gushed about how wonderful open adoption is, regaled with stories about other girls who gave up their babies going on Disney vacations with adoptive parents and kids, etc. Dawn talks out of both sides of her mouth and very rarely tells them the whole truth. They may have looked at it and thought that the paper agreement was a guideline, but the happy stories were what they were getting. They were minors with absolutely no advocates on their side at the time. They're plenty old enough now to figure out what's happening, and live their lives accordingly, but they made a heavy & hugely consequential decision with very little help before they were old enough to legally buy a pack of cigarettes. 

That's possible, and it wouldn't even have to be a lie. Perhaps there is one adoption on Bethany's books where the adoptive mother and the birth mother are good friends, where they meet up once a month for brunch and go on vacations together and the birth mother babysits for the adoptive mother, and Dawn made it sound like that's way it always turns out, instead of a very rare exceptional case. I am sure Bethany has done that before, based on other people's experiences that they've posted on that forum.

 

However, the reason I think it's possible that this was not the case here, is that Cate didn't ask for that level of closeness.  I mean, Dawn could have given her a hard sell regardless (off camera), but given how little Cate was asking for, that seems superfluous. But I concede there may have been more to the story that wasn't shown.

 

43 minutes ago, eskimo said:

IMO, usually once there is an unplanned teenage pregnancy there is going to be pain, any way you slice it.  Abortion brings pain, adoption brings pain, and parenting as a teenager brings a certain pain.  Remember C&T's situation at the time.  She lived with their abusive, drug using parents in a completely chaotic house.  The question really is who's pain is it going to be?  Cate's pain of adoption or Carly's pain of neglect and possibly abuse, similar to the shell shock Cate endured?  If Cate can't take care of Nova in much, much better circumstances.  What fresh hell would Carly have been brought up in?  Where would they all be now if they'd kept Carly, with or without MTV money?  Cate made the right choice for Carly despite any pain she suffers now. 

That's a really good point. There was never going to be an easy answer involving a pregnant teen couple living in poverty with addiction and criminal activity on both sides of their families.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Tatum

[eskimo]

16 hours ago, poopchute said:

I think it's just that Catelyn thinks they are so close and have such a good relationship that she can just call them up like you would any friend and try to make plans. I don't think she understands the relationship at all.  Although I will say I don't think they should have come to the wedding, that was weird and I guess makes it hard for them to understand the boundaries of the relationship.  

I'd bet my savings that B&T regret attending that wedding.  They probably regretted it ten minutes in.  I'm sure Carly was the focus of these nut jobs and it probably made them all uncomfortable.  Especially, ESPECIALLY after they had asked that Butch not have any contact with her and then he went out of his way to meet her. And then introduced himself to her as her GRANDPA!  He said on camera that he was asked to not approach Carly, but that he was going to do it anyway. What an asshole.  She doesn't know this old man who's claiming an honored title like that.  Same as Tyler is not her father.  I would have been so livid that I would have left right then. 

I think the fact that they made an effort to attend the wedding shows that there could have been an unusually special relationship between all of them.   I'm not saying that being 'regulars' in each others lives' would have, or should have, ever been on the menu, but it could have been a special bond.  But because virtually none of Carly's bio-relatives knows how to handle this situation like mature adults, it was definitely a huge mistake to go.  C&T's family fucked this one up on C&T's behalf. 

[CofCinci]

Catelynn and Tyler did not keep the agreement -- or even read it to the bottom of the page. Yeah, I know they were 16 at time. Neither of them decided to keep this very important document?!  WTF. They were children and that's expected of children. Their parents failed them in so many ways. I know April was Boogietowning it up and wouldn't ensure that Catelynn stored this document somewhere -- but Kim?  Come on. Couldn't she have held Tyler's important papers for him - her minor child?  Was she just so happy that her son wouldn't have to pay the eventual child support (if they kept Carly, there's no way they would have stayed together for long) that they were loosy goosy with the papers?

Then you have Catelynn still crying for Carly as she's completely checked out of Nova's life. She didn't even take the baby for her first hair cut!

[Tatum]

21 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I'd bet my savings that B&T regret attending that wedding. ...C&T's family fucked this one up on C&T's behalf. 

You're totally right. I think the clusterfuck that is this open adoption agreement 7 years later is the result of mostly good intentions on B&T's part, and a lot of fuckery on the part of C&T's extended families.  Kim, who is the only adult in this situation that is remotely logical, has been egging Tyler on for the last few years when he pontificated over his own rights in this situation. She has crossed boundaries herself calling up Teresa. And forget about April and Butch, who seem to grasp the concept of adoption even less than C&T. That's a lot of bugs in C&T's ears telling them that their feelings are totally justified and B&T are in the wrong.

 

And then you have B&T, who are so grateful for Carly and I think Teresa has an affection for Cate that is genuine. I think she went to that wedding not because she felt obligated, but because she really wanted to celebrate a happy occasion with someone she cared deeply about. But having a relationship outside of adoptive mom/birth mom is kind of like trying to be best friends with your boss. It's not impossible, but the dynamics of one relationship really hinder the other. It was a poor decision on B&T's part to attend the wedding, but I see why they did. And now they feel partially responsible for the mixed signals and even more guilty about cutting off C&T. It's messy.

 

I do wonder what the impetus was for B&T giving C&T their number (which I believe came about in the second season?). That seemed to be the beginning of the end for respecting boundaries.

[Marisagf]

2 hours ago, eskimo said:

I think this hits the nail right on the head.  And I think Teresa genuinely cares for Cate and gave her more leeway than she might have otherwise.  I think if Cate and Tyler would have been mature about the situation none of this would be happening.  I don't think B&T want to cut C&T off, but they might have to.  If Teresa wanted to erase Cate she wouldn't have given Cate that bracelet (necklace?) in the hospital that she and Carly would both have replicas of, to show the bond the three of them had.  This is not to mean that T thought C should be a regular fixture in their lives, but that she recognizes their emotional connection.  I really think it hurts B&T that they have been forced to take these steps.  C&T blew it.

 

30 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I think the fact that they made an effort to attend the wedding shows that there could have been an unusually special relationship between all of them.   I'm not saying that being 'regulars' in each others lives' would have, or should have, ever been on the menu, but it could have been a special bond.  But because virtually none of Carly's bio-relatives knows how to handle this situation like mature adults, it was definitely a huge mistake to go.  C&T's family fucked this one up on C&T's behalf. 

Word to both of these comments!  Like it or not, these two women have a connection.  Seeing Theresa's interaction with Cate at the wedding had me in tears.  Cate's own mother wasn't as sweet with her!  

I think B & T feel for C & T, and want the best for them.  But C & T aren't keeping up their end of the bargain.  As my social worker told me and my hubby before our adoption (she was not with our agency), if you promise to do something, you better do it.  We told our birth mother that we would set up a password protected Website and post photos.  We can tell that she might have looked at it once or twice, and isn't really tech savvy.  So we held up our end of the bargain, but we know she hasn't been looking at them.   When I am in contact with her and find out about what is happening with her, I let her know that I am on her side and I am rooting for her.  I feel for her as another human being.  Our families do not enter into this and they shouldn't.

1 hour ago, Tatum said:

Perhaps there is one adoption on Bethany's books where the adoptive mother and the birth mother are good friends, where they meet up once a month for brunch and go on vacations together and the birth mother babysits for the adoptive mother, and Dawn made it sound like that's way it always turns out, instead of a very rare exceptional case. I am sure Bethany has done that before, based on other people's experiences that they've posted on that forum.

I don't doubt it!  And my social worker told me that these cases will get trotted out for the adoption dog and pony show.

2 hours ago, evilmindatwork said:

 They were minors with absolutely no advocates on their side at the time. They're plenty old enough now to figure out what's happening, and live their lives accordingly, but they made a heavy & hugely consequential decision with very little help before they were old enough to legally buy a pack of cigarettes. 

Here is my question: Didn't they have a lawyer?  Our birth mother did and we paid her legal expenses.  That's usually how it goes.  I know they were minors, but they had to have legal representation.  Did Kim act as their guardian/parent?  We know April didn't.  Now, a lawyer wouldn't help with the openness agreement since those things aren't codified by the legal system. But someone had to help make this thing legal.

2 hours ago, EmeraldGirl said:

Although she went there herself and blurted out something about Teresa being barren, didn't she? They both definitely can jump into angry white trash in a flash (is that poetic? Well, it rhymed).

That is so low and hurtful!  STFU, Catelynn!

[CofCinci]

3 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I do wonder what the impetus was for B&T giving C&T their number (which I believe came about in the second season?). That seemed to be the beginning of the end for respecting boundaries.

Caller ID. If they arranged for a phone call and Theresa called from her cellphone, Catelynn's phone and phone bill would retain Theresa's number. 

[Tatum]

1 minute ago, CofCinci said:

Caller ID. If they arranged for a phone call and Theresa called from her cellphone, Catelynn's phone and phone bill would retain Theresa's number. 

Well then what was the impetus for having a phone call between Cate and Teresa? In the first season, all contact was done through Bethany.

 

ETA: I take that back. In 16 and Pregnant, Teresa and Cate talked on the phone a lot. I was under the impression that the phone calls were going through some kind of 1-800 number, kind of like what shows up on caller ID when you use a calling card, but maybe Cate had Teresa's number all along.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Tatum

[GreatKazu]

Quote

Although she went there herself and blurted out something about Teresa being barren, didn't she? They both definitely can jump into angry white trash in a flash (is that poetic? Well, it rhymed).

Cate is a bitch. She goes to so much trouble to make herself look like the constant victim. She can get down, dirty, and vile just like April. She can put all the energy into being cruel and foul, getting into business that is none of hers to be getting into. Just don't put your money on or expect her to get her ass up in the morning, put on those stretched-out to infinity, lint-covered, foul-smelling black stretchy pants of hers and get to that damn appointment.

 

Cate and Tyler demanding to know B&T's last name, was just too damn pushy and the beginning of them crossing boundaries.

Edited October 26, 2016 by GreatKazu

[Tatum]

2 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

Cate is a bitch. She goes to so much trouble to make herself look like the constant victim. She can get down, dirty, and vile just like April. She can put all the energy into being cruel and foul, getting into business that is none of hers to be getting into. Just don't put your money on or expect her to get her ass up in the morning, put on those stretched-out to infinity, lint-covered, foul-smelling black stretchy pants of hers and get to that damn appointment.

Haha. I don't think Cate is always a bitch, but I definitely agree with you there are times when it's obvious who her mother is.

[ReadMeLattice]

She called her barren?!

Yeah, no sympathy. She is Carly's mother. Stfu.

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

That clip honestly made me so angry. The first few years after Carly was born, yes, I could have understood the confusion, but at this point, even your adoption counselor from shady Bethany has explicitly told you you have zero rights. 

Carly is not their child. She has parents and they are NOT Catelynn and Tyler. It would be painful, but I wish someone would openly spell out for them that they are not her parents in any way, any more than a sperm or egg donor or a surrogate is a parent. They never had to REALLY go through the pain of accepting that. They need to.

 On the clip I saw all sorts of comments from fans saying that Cate should "keep fighting for her daughter" and such. That's partly why I think this show does a disservice. People who don't understand adoption are going to get an even more warped view of it from this show. B&T are not co parents, they are not legal guardians, they aren't her parents for now. They are her only, lifelong parents. 

I hope most people don't get the wrong idea about adoption. I know several of us here are adopted, and we wouldn't have had it any other way. Our adoptive parents are our ONLY parents, period. 

[ReadMeLattice]

3 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I hope most people don't get the wrong idea about adoption. I know several of us here are adopted, and we wouldn't have had it any other way. Our adoptive parents are our ONLY parents, period. 

I think a lot of people, especially in Catelynn and Tyler's "set," which I can't describe without being offensive, think that genes mean rights. I think it's a cultural thing. If I had gotten pregnant and decided to choose an adoptive parent, my parents would have thought that the most appropriate option next to abortion. I think a significant segment of the population doesn't feel that way and thinks that if you gave birth or physically donated the sperm, you are the parent no matter what. That is very disturbing to me and I see it reflected by a lot of C&T's "fans."

[GreatKazu]

28 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

She called her barren?!

Yeah, no sympathy. She is Carly's mother. Stfu.

My sympathy for Cate went out the window long ago. Her recent "retards" comment just add to the list of reasons why. 

[Tatum]

2 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I think a lot of people, especially in Catelynn and Tyler's "set," which I can't describe without being offensive, think that genes mean rights. I think it's a cultural thing. If I had gotten pregnant and decided to choose an adoptive parent, my parents would have thought that the most appropriate option next to abortion. I think a significant segment of the population doesn't feel that way and thinks that if you gave birth or physically donated the sperm, you are the parent no matter what. That is very disturbing to me and I see it reflected by a lot of C&T's "fans."

I had the same thought going through the Bethany grievances board (there is an entire forum dedicated to complaints about Bethany).

Now, I am not trying to diminish the pain that birth mothers that choose adoption go through, or say their anger is not justified if Bethany took them for a ride, but some of the comments I read made Tyler look mature and reasonable in comparison.

One of the comments, which I actually posted here many months ago, read something like (from an angry birth mother who felt that Bethany had lied to her in regards to open adoption and her rights after adoption)  "imagine how you would feel to see your child call some genetic stranger 'mommy'".  I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. Some of these commenters seem to believe the child they gave up is still their child and they deserve the recognition as the parent.

 

When I read comments like those, I have to wonder what happened first. Did Bethany target these birth parents and lie to them (figuring they weren't credible and Bethany would get away with it), or did Bethany give it to them straight, and their own...misconceptions, I guess, about how the world works, colored their ability to understand what Bethany was telling them?

[leighroda]

6 hours ago, evilmindatwork said:

As annoying as C&T can be, I think B&T would be pretty shady to cut off things entirely. C&T are hot messes with terrible taste and worse manners, but they are mostly harmless to Carly. B&T should never have agreed to an open adoption if they weren't willing to put up with occasional annoyance and some awkward boundary crossing. 

While Carly is legally B&T's daughter, I think seeing the pain Cate obviously still feels about this adoption has made me see adoption in a newer, less positive light, she made the best decision back then but she was just a kid and didn't really understand what she was agreeing to.  Add in shady Bethany and that's just another layer into the gas lighting some of these birth mothers deal with at a very vulnerable time in their lives. 

I don't agree that C&T are harmless... just the fact that they are on reality tv causes a inherent danger to Carly, B&T have been threatened by C&T's fans in the past, and while that is not necessarily C&T's fault (although I don't recall them making any effort to put a stop to it) but that could become a very real danger to Carly.  C&T have proven time and time again not to make good judgements from driving high, posting pictures of Carly when explicitly asked not to, even most recently the nude picture of Nova... B&T could never have known this when they signed the contract, the contract was made in good faith that both sides would uphold their end... and I think B&T have made a huge effort to do so in their part, but constantly pushing the line from C&T is what has cause them to have to move further away from the original open adoption agreement.

[leighroda]

4 hours ago, Calm81 said:

This! I understand that Carly isn't Cates daughter, legally, but I feel some sympathy for the fact that when she was 16 years old I don't think she was intelligent enough (I'm not calling her stupid, but she may not have understood many of the legal terms and was too afraid or naive to ask questions and just trusted the "adults" in the situation to figure out what was best.) because when I think about my mentality at 16 versus my mentality now that I'm in my early 30s I can assume that I would have signed a lot of papers without going over all the print painstakingly while asking questions about terms I wasn't familiar with.

B&T and C&T are in a weird situation, I mean, B&T went to C&T's (LOL! The name shortcuts) wedding and Theresa had a beautiful heart to heart with Cate looking like they were close and it may have been misleading to Cate (Just to Cate, I understand it wasn't misleading) about their relationship and thought that they could text each other like besties and have extra Ice cream dates with brunches.

I see Cates side of things, like, "I gave you a special gift...my child, and I can't even get an annual visit?" thinking B&T are not appreciative to the blessing they've received. Then I see Theresa's side about how "I gave your birth child a life you couldn't give her at the time (not knowing Cate would become rich a season or two later) and allowed you a chance to further your education and establish careers without being tied down to a child at 16.

 

Ugh, I feel for both of them. This is an emotional situation where both sides are feeling hurt. Aside from all my annoyance by C&T's actions lately, I could never understand what it's like to give a child up that rested under my heart for 9 months. This is where my sympathy for Cate lies and ends. I'm mostly frustrated that she gave her up to better herself with education but never TOOK ADVANTAGE, I mean, that was the reason for giving Carly up. :-(

I can't really say I feel bad anymore for Cate... it's true she gave B&T an amazing gift, but they haven't let anyone forget it. They are not entitled to anything when it comes to Carly, and the impression they give me is that they believe B&T owe them. 

Im sure adoption was an incredibly hard decision, and took a huge toll on Cates psyche, she was young and didn't understand the full implications of her decisions, and may or may not have been given false hope by the agency... I give her all of that.  BUT, B&T cutting or limiting contact is all C&T's doing. Every time B&T gave an inch C&T took a mile. B&T sent photos, C&T posted them to social media. B&T granted them visits, C&T bring MTV along. B&T attend the wedding (which agree was maybe not the best idea on B&T's part) with a few conditions (no pictures of Carly, no Butch approaching) and C&T don't seem to really care that the conditions were broken. They have been given countless chances when it comes to keeping the adoption open, but have given B&T every reason to question their decision for an open adoption and consider closing/limiting it more.  

Yes,  C&T were young when they made the decision to adopt out Carly, but I strongly believe that they have been given the benefit of a doubt as far as the learning curve is concerned... a lot of the choices they have made that have put them at risk for having the adoption closed are things they have done as adults, they have been given warnings and chances but they are still doing the same stuff. 

So while I feel a tinge bad because I recognize it's a difficult situation I have never been through so I don't truly understand, I really can't muster anymore empathy for C&T.

[AhFillAck]

2 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Catelynn and Tyler did not keep the agreement -- or even read it to the bottom of the page. Yeah, I know they were 16 at time. Neither of them decided to keep this very important document?!  WTF. They were children and that's expected of children. Their parents failed them in so many ways. I know April was Boogietowning it up and wouldn't ensure that Catelynn stored this document somewhere -- but Kim?  Come on. Couldn't she have held Tyler's important papers for him - her minor child?  Was she just so happy that her son wouldn't have to pay the eventual child support (if they kept Carly, there's no way they would have stayed together for long) that they were loosy goosy with the papers?

Then you have Catelynn still crying for Carly as she's completely checked out of Nova's life. She didn't even take the baby for her first hair cut!

C&T did keep the documents. For a while. Then they had to cut them up all tiny because they were out of rolling papers.

[CofCinci]

Required reading for any discussions about Bethany:

https://www.thenation.com/article/shotgun-adoption/

[DeeReynolds]

I think the length of time that Cate and Tyler have been on reality TV has messed with their feelings about Carly. I really wonder if they hadn't been producer prompted to discuss her constantly for the last 6-7 years if they would still seem so fixated on her. If left to their own devices after the adoption with no camera crew documenting their storyline  (which their story was that of Carly and the adoption), would things be where they are now? Would they still be constantly talking about her? Or would them talking about her have been more normal, like remembering her on her birthday and such?

They are living in a faux world where they literally get a paycheck to talk about their long lost daughter (at least before they were request to stop talking about it). I tend to think that if there were no cameras or producers prompting them, they would have able to grieve their loss more normally and not be constantly reminded of it. Not to say things may not be the same despite the cameras, I guess we will never know!

[AirQuotes]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I hope most people don't get the wrong idea about adoption. I know several of us here are adopted, and we wouldn't have had it any other way. Our adoptive parents are our ONLY parents, period. 

This!  Thank you for saying this.   This is exactly how I feel as an adopted child.

[Willowsmom]

9 hours ago, evilmindatwork said:

As annoying as C&T can be, I think B&T would be pretty shady to cut off things entirely. C&T are hot messes with terrible taste and worse manners, but they are mostly harmless to Carly. B&T should never have agreed to an open adoption if they weren't willing to put up with occasional annoyance and some awkward boundary crossing. 

While Carly is legally B&T's daughter, I think seeing the pain Cate obviously still feels about this adoption has made me see adoption in a newer, less positive light, she made the best decision back then but she was just a kid and didn't really understand what she was agreeing to.  Add in shady Bethany and that's just another layer into the gas lighting some of these birth mothers deal with at a very vulnerable time in their lives. 

Actually C & T are a threat to Carly. They are potheads with no sense of limits. Tyker is verbally and emotionally abusive. Cate is a depressed mess. Neither realky wants the drug use to change. And they demonstrated at the wedding that tgey have no qualms expising B&T's daughter to their even worse families .

I'd bet they've asked for time alone with Carly.

[Katt]

I'm surprised Catelynn knows a word like "barren".
I think if TM hadn't happened, C&T would have split up years ago and Carly wouldn't have been a daily conversation. IMO, they could have somewhat moved on easier if not together anymore. 

i don't know if this has been touched on at all -and I'm only asking because I'm a nosy bitch- but did they get any kind of compensation for placing Carly? I know they're supposed to keep that info to themselves, but it's never stopped them before. 

[lexiexx]

I think cate was under the wrong impression.  Just looking at that paperwork it seems like she could have thought it was legally binding.   On the other hand I believe the real motivation for that adoption was to keep Tyler around and had zero to do with cates circumstances.   i think she would have signed off on a closed adoption if the alternative was keeping Carly and Tyler leaving.   

Their story could have looked a lot like kails if Tyler was on board.   

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, Katt said:

I'm surprised Catelynn knows a word like "barren".
I think if TM hadn't happened, C&T would have split up years ago and Carly wouldn't have been a daily conversation. IMO, they could have somewhat moved on easier if not together anymore. 

i don't know if this has been touched on at all -and I'm only asking because I'm a nosy bitch- but did they get any kind of compensation for placing Carly? I know they're supposed to keep that info to themselves, but it's never stopped them before. 

If I recall Cate said "I gave her (Theresa) something she couldn't give herself."- she didn't say she was "barren". Of all the things Catelynn has said and done that's the least offensive (to me), yes Catelynn did, just like Theresa gave Carly 500million important things and all things Catelynn couldn't give her, namely a MOTHER. Theresa gave Carly a mother.

IMO B&T have tried to stay true to the semi-open adoption (I don't think having someone's cellphone number is a huge deal), but C&T fucked it up by their behavior and not respecting boundaries. Had C&T been more emotionally healthy etc, attending the wedding wouldn't have started this downward spiral. 

[lexiexx]

I think the closest cate has come to admitting her regret was when she said she was only 16 when she made the decision.   The woman from the adoption agency (I am blanking on her name right now) probably didn't like that one bit.    Cate is beside herself about how she can't have the exact thing she requested in the paperwork and blurts out something like that?   I don't think she will be hired for any more speaking engagements for that agency in the near future.   

[SPLAIN]

Quote

If I recall Cate said "I gave her (Theresa) something she couldn't give herself."- she didn't say she was "barren". Of all the things Catelynn has said and done that's the least offensive (to me),

I find it offensive. It's one thing for Cate to think and believe that, it is another for her to say that on television knowing Teresa will hear her say such a thing. Cate is almost rubbing salt into Teresa's wounds. To me, that would be like Teresa announcing on television "I did Cate a favor by adopting Carly because she could never be a mother."  And to me, it is not about whether Cate has said worse. It is the overall attitude that statement makes and pretty much sums up the underlying thoughts C&T have had all along - they did this huge favor for B&T and now they deserve all of their requests to be adhered to by B&T.

My point of view comes from the fact I am an adopted child. This whole thing has put adoption in a bad light. If anyone makes a decision to abort or keep their baby because of this mess, I blame MTV, Bethany, and C&T. They are all accountable in some way. Adoption works and has worked for many, many families. I would question any person who requests an open adoption.  I would think there is something else going on there, but it has nothing to do with the best interest of the baby.  Only in rare instances do I believe open adoption can work, but with certain restrictions in place. I won't get into what those restrictions are at this point.  

Choices made by Cate &Tyler as teens is one thing. Choices made as adults is another matter. As adults, they are not respecting the boundaries. They can't go back in time and say they didn't know. The point is, they know the open adoption agreement is not a legal binding document.

They have a warped sense of what they are entitled to. In fact, they are warped for thinking they are entitled to anything from Brandon & Teresa. B&T do not owe them a damn thing. I am not hearing them say they regret their choice, but they have taken matters to a level that has never been healthy for Carly whatsoever. Everything I am hearing from C&T is how they feel. It is Cate and Tyler's feelings. Tyler is angry. Cate is sad. What about CARLY'S FEELINGS? Those two never consider her at all. Just like how they don't consider their own child.

Tyler and Cate are making some outlandish requests. I am floored at the request for the yearly DVDs of Carly's birthday. What fucking nerve! No, you should not be allowed to see how B&T celebrate their child's birthday. You are not entitled to see the various family members and friends that are in Carly's life. They have a right to privacy. God, I feel sympathy for Brandon, Teresa, and Carly because they can't just go and live their lives without Cate's invisible umbilical cord wrapped around them.  Cate wants to spend the whole day with a child? To do what? Slobber all over her and tell her you love her? She knows that already. You have told her many, many times. What else? To take photos? You get a yearly photo. What a couple of ingrates.  I can see C&T taking Nova and telling Carly "This is your sister, Novalee!"

B&T seem to be putting the kibosh on all this nonsense. Thank goodness. As an adopted child, I cannot imagine the craziness that would have been my life if my bio parents were allowed to visit me and expecting to spend the day with me. They would have been a disruption in my life.  I would not know where the line was drawn. I have no care to ever know who those people are or if they are still alive. I would feel violated if they continued to want to be a part of my life and expected photos and videos of my personal memories with my family. My memories of my family are cherished memories. To even try to imagine if my bio parents were sharing all of that with people I didn't even know, I'd be fucking upset.  I thank my bio parents in my prayers for giving me to the people who actually raised me and loved me. My adoptive parents were my parents in every sense of the word. I have a sister whose bio mother came into her life after my sister had married and had children. It did not end well. Her bio mother was expecting to establish this mother-and-daughter relationship that just did not exist. She wasn't asking to be called "mom", but she was trying to get her own children to connect with their "long lost sister". My sister was upset. She had to sever the relationship. It was just too much for my sister to bear. She didn't want to connect with people who were not her siblings. Being blood-related does not make a relationship.

Carly was a voiceless party in this transaction. Cate and Tyler need to stop behaving as if B&T should be grateful to them and guilt them into sharing Carly and her private life and memories with them. C&T have abused the trust given to them by B&T. C&T are demanding a level of openness that is unrealistic and unhealthy. Teresa has likely felt the burden and guilt to provide emotional support to Cate by way of having this open communication with her through emails, phone calls, and texts.

Last thought of mine, but I am sure I will have more as I think about this whole mess. There is the big possibility if these visits continue in the future, Carly may try to manipulate her parents and C&T by playing one against the other.

Sorry for the long post. So many thoughts are in my head.

Edited October 27, 2016 by SPLAIN

[evilmindatwork]

2 hours ago, DeeReynolds said:

They are living in a faux world where they literally get a paycheck to talk about their long lost daughter (at least before they were request to stop talking about it). I tend to think that if there were no cameras or producers prompting them, they would have able to grieve their loss more normally and not be constantly reminded of it. Not to say things may not be the same despite the cameras, I guess we will never know!

Thanks for the link @CofCinci, I read that article a long time ago and was trying to find it today but couldn't track it down.

I just re- watched C & T's 16 & P and one of the things I found distasteful was Dawn coming into Cate's hospital room and pressuring her to let Brandon & Theresa in. When Cate says she wants to get pictures first, Dawn says "I guess I'll try to entertain them and try to hold them off then." It was a small thing but felt a lot like guilting and emotional blackmail to me. 

Anyway, I am done discussing this. I am fairly sure B&T are great and C&T definitely need to get their shit together but I mostly just find their story sad. I am not sure Teen Mom was a good thing for them despite all the money. 

[FlowerofCarnage]

We know Dawn told C&T what they wanted tonheat about how the adoption will go, but I bet she told B & T what they wanted to hear as well considering they initially wanted a closed adoption. I imagine the convo went something like "most open adoption closed by the child's 5th birthday....they're a young couple...you know how teen relationships are...they'll probably break up and move on soon than you think...you may have one of two visits and that's it..."

[lexiexx]

Cate was manipulated from every possible angle after Carly was born.   She admitted on one of the first reunions that she told April she was keeping the baby and April went out and bought baby things.   Tyler jumped on cate the second that kid came out and started talking adoption and then the adoption counselor wanted to bring in b and t and made it like an inconvenience that she dared want to see her baby and get pictures first?  It's no wonder that cate is a hot mess right now.  Maybe if the adoption does close she will finally be able to process and work through what happened --finally make some progress.  

[SPLAIN]

6 minutes ago, lexiexx said:

Cate was manipulated from every possible angle after Carly was born.   She admitted on one of the first reunions that she told April she was keeping the baby and April went out and bought baby things.   Tyler jumped on cate the second that kid came out and started talking adoption and then the adoption counselor wanted to bring in b and t and made it like an inconvenience that she dared want to see her baby and get pictures first?  It's no wonder that cate is a hot mess right now.  Maybe if the adoption does close she will finally be able to process and work through what happened --finally make some progress.  

I clearly remember Cate pushing for adoption in some scenes because Butch and April gave her a hard time for wanting to give away "their blood".  Cate mentioned not wanting to raise a baby in that environment. She continued to say many times after Carly was adopted, how it was the best decision she made. Here is just one of several articles I found where Cate talks about it:

http://www.wetpaint.com/where-do-tyler-and-catelynn-go-to-school-you-asked-we-answered-707126/

 

"I have a calling for pregnant teenagers that are placing for adoption," Catelynn told Us Weekly. "[Giving up Carly] and doing the show helped me realize what I want to do for the rest of my life."
 

[Scarlett45]

35 minutes ago, SPLAIN said:

I find it offensive. It's one thing for Cate to think and believe that, it is another for her to say that on television knowing Teresa will hear her say such a thing. Cate is almost rubbing salt into Teresa's wounds. To me, that would be like Teresa announcing on television "I did Cate a favor by adopting Carly because she could never be a mother."  And to me, it is not about whether Cate has said worse. It is the overall attitude that statement makes and pretty much sums up the underlying thoughts C&T have had all along - they did this huge favor for B&T and now they deserve all of their requests to be adhered to by B&T.

My point of view comes from the fact I am an adopted child. This whole thing has put adoption in a bad light. If anyone makes a decision to abort or keep their baby because of this mess, I blame MTV, Bethany, and C&T. They are all accountable in some way. Adoption works and has worked for many, many families. I would question any person who requests an open adoption.  I would think there is something else going on there, but it has nothing to do with the best interest of the baby.  Only in rare instances do I believe open adoption can work, but with certain restrictions in place. I won't get into what those restrictions are at this point.  

Choices made by Cate &Tyler as teens is one thing. Choices made as adults is another matter. As adults, they are not respecting the boundaries. They can't go back in time and say they didn't know. The point is, they know the open adoption agreement is not a legal binding document.

They have a warped sense of what they are entitled to. In fact, they are warped for thinking they are entitled to anything from Brandon & Teresa. B&T do not owe them a damn thing. I am not hearing them say they regret their choice, but they have taken matters to a level that has never been healthy for Carly whatsoever. Everything I am hearing from C&T is how they feel. It is Cate and Tyler's feelings. Tyler is angry. Cate is sad. What about CARLY'S FEELINGS? Those two never consider her at all. Just like how they don't consider their own child.

Tyler and Cate are making some outlandish requests. I am floored at the request for the yearly DVDs of Carly's birthday. What fucking nerve! No, you should not be allowed to see how B&T celebrate their child's birthday. You are not entitled to see the various family members and friends that are in Carly's life. They have a right to privacy. God, I feel sympathy for Brandon, Teresa, and Carly because they can't just go and live their lives without Cate's invisible umbilical cord wrapped around them.  Cate wants to spend the whole day with a child? To do what? Slobber all over her and tell her you love her? She knows that already. You have told her many, many times. What else? To take photos? You get a yearly photo. What a couple of ingrates.  I can see C&T taking Nova and telling Carly "This is your sister, Novalee!"

B&T seem to be putting the kibosh on all this nonsense. Thank goodness. As an adopted child, I cannot imagine the craziness that would have been my life if my bio parents were allowed to visit me and expecting to spend the day with me. They would have been a disruption in my life.  I would not know where the line was drawn. I have no care to ever know who those people are or if they are still alive. I would feel violated if they continued to want to be a part of my life and expected photos and videos of my personal memories with my family. My memories of my family are cherished memories. To even try to imagine if my bio parents were sharing all of that with people I didn't even know, I'd be fucking upset.  I thank my bio parents in my prayers for giving me to the people who actually raised me and loved me. My adoptive parents were my parents in every sense of the word. I have a sister whose bio mother came into her life after my sister had married and had children. It did not end well. Her bio mother was expecting to establish this mother-and-daughter relationship that just did not exist. She wasn't asking to be called "mom", but she was trying to get her own children to connect with their "long lost sister". My sister was upset. She had to sever the relationship. It was just too much for my sister to bear. She didn't want to connect with people who were not her siblings. Being blood-related does not make a relationship.

Carly was a voiceless party in this transaction. Cate and Tyler need to stop behaving as if B&T should be grateful to them and guilt them into sharing Carly and her private life and memories with them. C&T have abused the trust given to them by B&T. C&T are demanding a level of openness that is unrealistic and unhealthy. Teresa has likely felt the burden and guilt to provide emotional support to Cate by way of having this open communication with her through emails, phone calls, and texts.

Last thought of mine, but I am sure I will have more as I think about this whole mess. There is the big possibility if these visits continue in the future, Carly may try to manipulate her parents and C&T by playing one against the other.

Sorry for the long post. So many thoughts are in my head.

I certainly appreciate your perspective and experiences. As someone who's mostly familiar with intra-family adoption (adoption between family members), I certainly understand how Theresa may feel an emotional attachment to Catelynn and have formed a relationship based on that, but Catelynn and Tyler have over stepped their boundaries 100%. And this isn't an intra-family adoption so the dynamics are very different. 

From what we have seen on the show B&T have tried to be accomidating and C&T have been pushy/rude/demanding, and the consequences have come home to roost. I have no reason not to believe B&T have their daughter's bests interests at hand when they make these decisions. Theresa can most certainly have affection for Catelynn but value the stability of her family more (which she should). 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Scarlett45

[lexiexx]

The baby didn't have to be in that environment.  I already said that if Tyler stepped up the baby could possibly been at his house until they got on their feet.   I put zero stock into any cate quote.  She knows what she is supposed to say to get paid and to bow down to Tyler.   Does it look like she is at peace with her decision?  

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, lexiexx said:

The baby didn't have to be in that environment.  I already said that if Tyler stepped up the baby could possibly been at his house until they got on their feet.   I put zero stock into any cate quote.  She knows what she is supposed to say to get paid and to bow down to Tyler.   Does it look like she is at peace with her decision?  

I thought Kim said she was not helping them raise the baby/not allowing the baby to come to her home. 

[lexiexx]

24 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

We know Dawn told C&T what they wanted tonheat about how the adoption will go, but I bet she told B & T what they wanted to hear as well considering they initially wanted a closed adoption. I imagine the convo went something like "most open adoption closed by the child's 5th birthday....they're a young couple...you know how teen relationships are...they'll probably break up and move on soon than you think...you may have one of two visits and that's it..."

Or she could have simply said "you don't have to tell them so much as your last name and all that document means is that they are asking.  Nothing enforceable"

i think it's kind of sad that they would have a teenager sit down and write out those requests not knowing that it doesn't mean they will ever happen.   I wonder how many open adoptions close immediately statistically.  

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I thought Kim said she was not helping them raise the baby/not allowing the baby to come to her home. 

Possibly, it wouldn't surprise me considering she seems to think her precious baby is too good for cate.   

[Emmierose]

I used to feel so bad for Cate.  Seeng her in the earlier seasons of Teen Mom, being given shit by Butch and April for "giving your fucking kid away", broke my heart.  She was still a baby herself and always reminded me of a scared little rabbit ready to run.  However...

These recent episodes have pretty much confirmed that Catelynn is JUST. LIKE. APRIL.  She has just embraced her trash roots and the bullshit sobbing over Carly in the preview, "I was only 16 when I made these decisions..."  Well that's just too bad there Cate.  If you were mother of the year to the baby you had now I'd buy it, but your beautiful little daughter just roams around while you cry and sleep and smoke pot.  Yeah, have a seat Cate.  Have about 200 seats.  Enough.  Grow up.  Ditch Tyler.  Tell your piece of shit mother to fuck off.  Get a job, take some classes, get your shit together.  And she and Tyler never, ever, ever would have stayed together if she'd kept Carly.  Ever. 

The stars were in alignment for Carly the day she was placed with B&T.  They need to cut off all physical contact at this point and just send letters and photos.  Enough with these two trash bags.  Focus on the daughter you have. 

[Chris Knight]

Quote

4 hours ago, leighroda said:

I don't agree that C&T are harmless... just the fact that they are on reality tv causes a inherent danger to Carly, B&T have been threatened by C&T's fans in the past, and while that is not necessarily C&T's fault (although I don't recall them making any effort to put a stop to it) but that could become a very real danger to Carly.  C&T have proven time and time again not to make good judgements from driving high, posting pictures of Carly when explicitly asked not to, even most recently the nude picture of Nova... B&T could never have known this when they signed the contract, the contract was made in good faith that both sides would uphold their end... and I think B&T have made a huge effort to do so in their part, but constantly pushing the line from C&T is what has cause them to have to move further away from the original open adoption agreement.

 

Completely agree, I don't think C&T are harmless at all. They are drug abusing shady grifters, and their family has repeat offender violent (Butch putting April's head thru the wall, is that really his only violent offense) criminals. 

[lexiexx]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall while b&t watch these two let it all hang out.    Like when cate is driving around high two different times and then puts out some bullshit I know better now than to drive medicated answer.   

[GreatKazu]

51 minutes ago, lexiexx said:

The baby didn't have to be in that environment.  I already said that if Tyler stepped up the baby could possibly been at his house until they got on their feet.   I put zero stock into any cate quote.  She knows what she is supposed to say to get paid and to bow down to Tyler.  

Kim wasn't allowing their baby to be under her roof. She was for the adoption. So, that rules out Tyler taking the baby to KIM'S house. It wasn't HIS house.

42 minutes ago, Emmierose said:

I used to feel so bad for Cate.  Seeng her in the earlier seasons of Teen Mom, being given shit by Butch and April for "giving your fucking kid away", broke my heart.  She was still a baby herself and always reminded me of a scared little rabbit ready to run.  However...

These recent episodes have pretty much confirmed that Catelynn is JUST. LIKE. APRIL.  She has just embraced her trash roots and the bullshit sobbing over Carly in the preview, "I was only 16 when I made these decisions..."  Well that's just too bad there Cate.  If you were mother of the year to the baby you had now I'd buy it, but your beautiful little daughter just roams around while you cry and sleep and smoke pot.  Yeah, have a seat Cate.  Have about 200 seats.  Enough.  Grow up.  Ditch Tyler.  Tell your piece of shit mother to fuck off.  Get a job, take some classes, get your shit together.  And she and Tyler never, ever, ever would have stayed together if she'd kept Carly.  Ever. 

The stars were in alignment for Carly the day she was placed with B&T.  They need to cut off all physical contact at this point and just send letters and photos.  Enough with these two trash bags.  Focus on the daughter you have. 

Thank goodness B&T came along and adopted Carly. If only Nova had some decent parents in her life.

[lexiexx]

It's interesting that the main point they were harping on is how cates house wasn't good enough.   If the main reason they were giving up their kid was the  environment I would imagine Tyler being more pissed that his mom wouldn't help them out temporarily.  But he didn't give a fuck because he never wanted cate to have any resources that would encourage her to keep Carly.   

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I fully expect within the next few years, we will start to hear about how Catelynn (& perhaps Tyler) REALLY feel about Bethany now that the adoption is closing. I expect that Catelynn will complain to everyone about how they took advantage of a poor, uneducated girl and misled her about open adoption. I also expect that when she and Tyler finally split, we will hear everything she's been holding back about how he pressured her to place Carly for adoption or he'd break up with her.

I have a ton of compassion for 16 year-old Catelynn, who is placing her baby because of pressure from the one somewhat stable and loving person in her life at that time - her boyfriend - who likely didn't fully understand what the open adoption meant and what it would really be like to carry & birth a child who you will lose forever to another set of parents (especially when she likely really wanted to keep Carly and would have had Tyler not pressured her to choose adoption).

However, my sympathy for now 25 year-old Catelynn has waned. Yes, maybe you were taken advantage of and pressured and didn't fully understand. But that was seven years ago and you've known the deal about how this adoption could close for a while now, yet you and your family have still crossed boundaries and talked smack about your child's parents. And you know and have admitted that Carly has a better life with B&T.  AND you now have a beautiful baby girl you could be actively parenting yet you ignore. I have sympathy for child Cate, but little for adult Cate when it comes to the adoption

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

11 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

Kim wasn't allowing their baby to be under her roof. She was for the adoption. So, that rules out Tyler taking the baby to KIM'S house. It wasn't HIS house.

The crappy thing about this is that Tyler's sister was going to place her baby for adoption via Bethany, but she backed out at the end. Her baby came home with her to live at Kim's house. So apparently Kim was cool with her daughter bringing home a grandkid, but was not okay with Tyler bringing home Cate's kid and Cate.  She obviously was hoping Tyler would sever ties with Cate and feared if they kept Carly that they would stay together. Too bad for Kim- MTV has made sure they ended up together (for now anyway).

[evilmindatwork]

3 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

However, my sympathy for now 25 year-old Catelynn has waned. Yes, maybe you were taken advantage of and pressured and didn't fully understand. But that was seven years ago and you've known the deal about how this adoption could close for a while now, yet you and your family have still crossed boundaries and talked smack about your child's parents. And you know and have admitted that Carly has a better life with B&T.  AND you now have a beautiful baby girl you could be actively parenting yet you ignore. I have sympathy for child Cate, but little for adult Cate when it comes to the adoption

This. This is exactly how I feel about this whole situation!