Catelynn (and Tyler)

[GreatKazu]

Cate and Tyler probably wanted to meet at the coffee shop instead of their home because they didn't want the Bethany lady to smell all that ganja. It also gave Cate an excuse to go get her coffee fix.

I am thinking B&T may have Carly in therapy due to something come up on their end such as Carly showing some behavior issues or having issues in school. Maybe she is confused as to what role C&T play in her life and she is not comfortable. Add that with all the ridiculous requests for visits that go beyond just a visit, and the photos. Geez. One photo is not enough? Tyler has shown he can't be trusted. He will do as he damn well pleases as far as Carly is concerned. Then, the wedding fiasco where Carly's photo was taken against B&T wishes, and the photo was plastered on the internet. Then, you have the fucking psycho rapid fans of C&T who are making threats to them. Enough is enough. Those two people have put up with so much and went above and beyond what they should have done.

[CofCinci]

10 minutes ago, poopchute said:

So basically it sounds like Catelyn and Tyler pretty much invited themselves to wherever Brandon and Theresa live and are mad that Theresa isn't saying yes let's do brunch.

Catelynn is asking for more than brunch.  She's asking for an entire day and then brunch the following the morning.  The nerve.  Maybe if she asked for an hour or ice cream (is there a Farrah's Famous Froco in B&T's city?), it could be arranged --- but she wants a day and then brunch.  Come on, Cate.

1 minute ago, GreatKazu said:

Cate and Tyler probably wanted to meet at the coffee shop instead of their home because they didn't want the Bethany lady to smell all that ganja. It also gave Cate an excuse to go get her coffee fix.

Good point.

4 minutes ago, neece26 said:

They have always acted like Carly was on loan to B & T until the magic age of 18, at which time they would reclaim her. 

Yes.  They have such poor boundaries with their own parents, they automatically assume that Carly will have poor boundaries as well.  They can't even conceptualize what are healthy limits, boundaries and expectations of relationships.

[poopchute]

Sorry, I keep coming back to add more thoughts.  I would love to know the background on this meeting with Dawn.  Did Catelyn contact her because Theresa wasn't responding to her in a way that she found satisfactory?  And then Dawn called Theresa who told her Catelyn had been texting her? It seemed like Dawn knew about the texting. I'm just wondering who initiated the contact with Dawn.  Did Theresa contact her and say yo you gotta set this lunatics straight?  I hope we find out.  I watched the clip again and Catelyn's face and attitude are pretty stank about the whole thing.  The way she says "pick up the freaking phone" okay this isn't your bestie who you haven't heard from in months it's a woman who doesn't owe you a "freaking phone" call or anything else.  Again, Brandon and Theresa will see the footage of this meeting and again if I were them I would not be happy about what I was seeing.  It's like the just keep giving them more reasons to cut it off every single time they have a conversation about it.

[geekamonggeeks]

Catelynn did seem pretty antsy and upset before Dawn even got there. I know she and Tyler haven't seen Carly in a while, but that doesn't give her the excuse to harass Teresa and then get all bitchy about her lack of answers (or, most likely, her answers that Cate doesn't like). Giving each other their cell phone numbers was a huge mistake. It just gives C&T free reign to text and call B&T over every little thing over and over again. Like you really have to wonder how long Catelynn had been trying to talk to Teresa before Dawn got involved. It's just way too personal having this much contact in a situation like this. 

B&T have lives of their own. So does Carly. Their lives do not revolve around C&T. They are not required to drop whatever they're doing so they can have brunch with Catelynn. Maybe something's going on in their family and they can't find the time to have a visit. Maybe Carly's super-busy with her hobbies and swimming. Or maybe---just maybe---they're regular adults leading regular lives and they don't have to appease Catelynn just because she gave birth to their daughter. 

[CofCinci]

8 minutes ago, poopchute said:

Sorry, I keep coming back to add more thoughts.  I would love to know the background on this meeting with Dawn.  Did Catelyn contact her because Theresa wasn't responding to her in a way that she found satisfactory?  And then Dawn called Theresa who told her Catelyn had been texting her? It seemed like Dawn knew about the texting. I'm just wondering who initiated the contact with Dawn.  Did Theresa contact her and say yo you gotta set this lunatics straight?  I hope we find out.  I watched the clip again and Catelyn's face and attitude are pretty stank about the whole thing.  The way she says "pick up the freaking phone" okay this isn't your bestie who you haven't heard from in months it's a woman who doesn't owe you a "freaking phone" call or anything else.  Again, Brandon and Theresa will see the footage of this meeting and again if I were them I would not be happy about what I was seeing.  It's like the just keep giving them more reasons to cut it off every single time they have a conversation about it.

I'm under the impression that Dawn arranged for the meeting AFTER being contacted by Theresa.  Guess we'll have to wait for the episode to air to get more info.

[GreatKazu]

Quote

It seemed like Dawn knew about the texting.

Yes, I got that feeling, too. Dawn did not ask to read the texts. Why? Because Theresa probably sent the messages to her to review. Dawn acted like the principal or the district attorney who already has the facts, but is just asking questions to hear what the other side has to say.

Quote

Catelynn is asking for more than brunch.  She's asking for an entire day and then brunch the following the morning.  The nerve.  Maybe if she asked for an hour or ice cream (is there a Farrah's Famous Froco in B&T's city?), it could be arranged --- but she wants a day and then brunch.  Come on, Cate.

Exactly. Cate is dictating how she wants to spend time with THEIR daughter? Uh uh. Not with my kid you don't. I tell YOU if you can see her.

I can see Cate putting on the waterworks in those texts (crying emojis) or even had a conversation before with Theresa where she became unhinged and said some things that led Theresa to feel Carly should not be exposed to C&T anymore. We know how upset Tyler was when B&T put the brakes on those two talking about their daughter. I can see Cate calling Theresa and telling her how she is having a meltdown, anxiety attacks, and her depression is getting worse at the thought of not seeing Carly.

[geekamonggeeks]

Let's see...Cate frequently has melt-downs on camera, Tyler frequently has temper tantrums on camera, Cate has been caught smoking pot while driving twice...and they're both clearly unstable individuals with nothing going for them. I can't for the life of me imagine why Teresa doesn't think it's a good idea to let Carly have brunch with them. 

[starfire]

Didn't Cate and Tyler normally meet with Dawn annually to discuss the situation, sending and receiving pictures, potential meetings with B&T, etc.? When they greeted each other they commented on it being a year.

[leighroda]

25 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

Catelynn is asking for more than brunch.  She's asking for an entire day and then brunch the following the morning.  The nerve.  Maybe if she asked for an hour or ice cream (is there a Farrah's Famous Froco in B&T's city?), it could be arranged --- but she wants a day and then brunch.  Come on, Cate.

Good point.

Yes.  They have such poor boundaries with their own parents, they automatically assume that Carly will have poor boundaries as well.  They can't even conceptualize what are healthy limits, boundaries and expectations of relationships.

You reminded me of the other point I wanted to make, Cate saying she just wanted a day and brunch the next day... that is a lot to ask, that monopolizes almost the whole wheekend Carly is in school now, she could have lessons, bday parties or god forbid just spending time with her family for a weekend... B&T don't owe C&T an ice cream date let alone a day and a half. 

I thought it was weird that in the adoption contract visitation was up to C&T to initiate... I would not have gone for that (as B&T) but nobody could have anticipated this situation so I don't fault them for that. I'm a little curious how this affected the terms of their sons adoption.  

Like I already said, I cannot fathom how Cate and Tyler don't see that posting all of this on social media and tv is not helping, every season something happens that makes me think B&T are gonna shut this down once they see how Cate and Tyler talk about them, and every season they get tighter and tighter with the restrictions on contact/visitation(as they should), so it's not like Cate and Tyler can say "we didn't know they were upset" or "this is so sudden" they have been given chance after chance and every time they shit on what B&T are gracious enough to give.

Let this board find out that anyone has leveraged any kind of hate at Brandon and Teresa for whatever decision was made... I have a feeling there would be hell to pay.

[starfire]

It's 7-8 years later and Cate and Tyler are dumber than a box of rocks (2 boxes of rocks?), so I expect back when they were 16 they were even more stupid. I am guessing they may not know what words like "initiate", etc., mean.

[AmyFarrahFowler]

Did anyone notice that Catelynn referred to them as B&T? Me thinks someone has been reading this board.

[FlowerofCarnage]

So Cate is motivated enough to travel several hundred miles to see Carly but can't drag her  ass  out of bed to make an important appointment regarding her health? 

[geekamonggeeks]

24 minutes ago, starfire said:

Didn't Cate and Tyler normally meet with Dawn annually to discuss the situation, sending and receiving pictures, potential meetings with B&T, etc.? When they greeted each other they commented on it being a year.

The contact between C&T and B&T were initially done through Bethany. Then they exchanged phone numbers, and B&T gave C&T their home address. They no longer had to go through a third-party to get and receive updates from each other. The last time C&T had to deal with Dawn was when they were having an issue with B&T not wanting them to share Carly's photos online. Catelynn was pregnant with Nova at the time, so, yeah, it was roughly a year ago from when the episode was filmed.*

 

*I'm super bad at math, so I may be completely wrong. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by geekamonggeeks

[CofCinci]

Did Tyler or Catelynn even bother to keep their original copy of the agreement?  These people!

2 minutes ago, geekamonggeeks said:

The contact between C&T and B&T were initially done through Bethany. Then they exchanged phone numbers, and B&T gave C&T their home address. They no longer had to go through a third-party to get and receive updates from each other. The last time C&T had to deal with Dawn was when they were having an issue with B&T not wanting them to share Carly's photos online. Catelynn was pregnant with Nova at the time, so, yeah, it was roughly a year ago when the episode was filmed.*

 

*I'm super bad at math, so I may be completely wrong. 

Sounds like Theresa calls Dawn when C&T won't take no for an answer.

[geekamonggeeks]

Just now, CofCinci said:

Did Tyler or Catelynn even bother to keep their original copy of the agreement?  These people!

What's confusing is that it sounds like Cate tried to initiate a visit by ~suggesting~ brunch, then got confused when Dawn brought up the agreement that stated C&T were supposed to ask for meetings. Which one is it, Cate? 

[CofCinci]

2 minutes ago, geekamonggeeks said:

What's confusing is that it sounds like Cate tried to initiate a visit by ~suggesting~ brunch, then got confused when Dawn brought up the agreement that stated C&T were supposed to ask for meetings. Which one is it, Cate? 

I think Catelynn is confused that it was a 2 step process - that ultimately depends on what B&T want to do.  From the screengrab and Dawn: "...initiated by Catelynn and Tyler and at the discretion of the adoptive family as they determine what is in the best interest for Carly."  I have the impression that Catelynn believes if she INITIATES the request, they are supposed to arrange for a visit.

[leighroda]

10 minutes ago, AmyFarrahFowler said:

Did anyone notice that Catelynn referred to them as B&T? Me thinks someone has been reading this board.

I took it as maybe B&T asked that their names not be used anymore, I have to look again though, I can't remember if further in the conversation if she used Teresa's name.  But I caught that and thought it was weird, I only abbreviate here because it's annoying to write over and over on a phone... but in real life I would still use names. 

[GreatKazu]

21 minutes ago, AmyFarrahFowler said:

Did anyone notice that Catelynn referred to them as B&T? Me thinks someone has been reading this board.

I noticed that immediately. The thought entered my mind, but they have been referenced that way by some of those rapid fans of theirs on their social media pages.

Then I thought of those lazy jokes about Amber. Here is one for Cate:

Cate is so lazy, she can't bother to say Brandon and Theresa's names.

16 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

So Cate is motivated enough to travel several hundred miles to see Carly but can't drag her  ass  out of bed to make an important appointment regarding her health? 

Thank you! Add in going to all the other places she goes to, but she can't bother to see a professional about her mental health? The mental health she blabbers on about every.chance.she.gets!

I won't be surprised if in the next episode we see Catelynn having a break-down while Tyler goes into Kail-mode and acts like the hulk.

Edited October 26, 2016 by GreatKazu

[AmyFarrahFowler]

8 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

I noticed that immediately. The thought entered my mind, but they have been referenced that way by some of those rapid fans of theirs on their social media pages.

Then I thought of those lazy jokes about Amber. Here is one for Cate:

Cate is so lazy, she can't bother to say Brandon and Theresa's names.

Thank you! Add in going to all the other places she goes to, but she can't bother to see a professional about her mental health? The mental health she blabbers on about every.chance.she.gets!

I won't be surprised if in the next episode we see Catelynn having a break-down while Tyler goes into Kail-mode and acts like the hulk.

And here I was feeling all speshul!

[poopchute]

16 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

I think Catelynn is confused that it was a 2 step process - that ultimately depends on what B&T want to do.  From the screengrab and Dawn: "...initiated by Catelynn and Tyler and at the discretion of the adoptive family as they determine what is in the best interest for Carly."  I have the impression that Catelynn believes if she INITIATES the request, they are supposed to arrange for a visit.

I think it's just that Catelyn thinks they are so close and have such a good relationship that she can just call them up like you would any friend and try to make plans. I don't think she understands the relationship at all.  Although I will say I don't think they should have come to the wedding, that was weird and I guess makes it hard for them to understand the boundaries of the relationship.  

[FlowerofCarnage]

I think Theresa has seen this season and stalled on how to tell the Baltierras that there wiil be no more visits without them flipping out, else I think she would have responded if it just a question of scheduling. Now, when Cate ramped up what I think was basically phone harassment, Theresa reached her breaking point and got Dawn involved.  

Edited October 26, 2016 by FlowerofCarnage

[mamadrama]

9 hours ago, teapot said:

Did anyone read My Sweet Audrina by VC Andrews?

The girl in it is named Audrina, after her dead sister, who was the First and Best Audrina.  They have her sit in her sister's rocking chair to "absorb her memories" in hopes of becoming like her.

that's almost the vibe I get from how C & T treat iCarly2 (tm www.imbringingbloggingback.com)

God, I love that book. The first time I read it, I was shocked as hell at the ending. If course, I was 9 so...

[FlowerofCarnage]

34 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

mods please delete

Edited October 26, 2016 by FlowerofCarnage

[Marisagf]

Did anyone see the bonus scene of Nuvaringly getting her first haircut?  Tyler let her walk on the salon floor barefoot.  That grossed me out!

[Marisagf]

I'm intrigued by the "peak preview" of Catelynn and Tyler and Dawn.  I'm an adoptive parent.  The agency I used did NOTHING to facilitate the relationship between my husband and me and our birth mother.  Once the adoption was done and the agency got all their money, I never heard from them and I never had to deal with them. 

That said, the agency didn't do a heck of a lot for our birth mother either, and my hubby and I ended up doing more for her in the time leading up to my daughter's birth.  It's a very long and personal story that I won't share, but suffice it to say, I don't think very highly of largely unregulated adoption agencies. They made the match, got paid, and were out of the picture.  

I know Cate and Tyler and Brandon and Theresa are in a unique situation b/c of the TV show.  Maybe Dawn has to stay involved with them or maybe that's how Bethany does business.  Or maybe Cate and Tyler WANT Dawn involved.  And, in this case, maybe she should be.  All I know is, the level of openness in the adoption relationship is really up to the adoptive parents.  You can make a non-legally binding agreement to share photos and have meetings, but I never had anything in writing.  We just use common sense and operate in our daughter's best interest.  We have never had an in-person visit with our birth mother since the birth (thought about it, but it was never requested), but we communicate via text and try to schedule phone calls.  I'm also friends with her on Facebook but limit her access to photos. (She can see them and "like" them, but cannot share them.  I also don't post a ton of photos of my child on FB.)

The relationship organically changes over time.  The child grows up.  leighroda made a great point about how a full day might not be feasible given their lives.  B & T also have another child.  They have moved on with life.  I'm sure they think about C & T, but their lives have gone on.  Maybe Carly has questions about her birth parents and maybe she doesn't.  That's for B & T to deal with.   If they want to keep the relationship alive for Carly's sake, that's a good thing.  But they do not have keep the same level of contact with C & T that they had when Carly was a baby.  Gradually weaning off visits and frequent letters and photos seems natural to me.  Somebody needs to explain that to C & T and tell them to move on with their lives an focus on the child they have.  Maybe someday they will find themselves too busy and too engaged in life to worry about B & T sending them a photo or answering a every single text.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Marisagf

[bethster2000]

53 minutes ago, Marisagf said:

B & T also have another child.

So do Catelynn and No-Heiffer.  Although you'd never, ever know it.

[mamadrama]

I wonder if Cate broke down during Piggygate and made some harassing texts or calls? I mean, if you are manic enough to buy a $3000 pig...

[ghoulina]

12 hours ago, starfire said:

 

Didn't Cate and Tyler normally meet with Dawn annually to discuss the situation, sending and receiving pictures, potential meetings with B&T, etc.?

 

Honestly, I think all contact should have remained through Dawn/Bethany. How does Cate even have Teresa's number to text her in the first place? That's just too close, IMO. All this contact has only served to foster Cate's delusions about B&T just raising their kid for them until she's old enough to come running to her loving mother. The relationship needed more distance, more boundaries. 

From the clip, it seems like they want to cut out the yearly visit. It would be nice if Teresa explicitly stated this, but I'd be afraid any reply I gave would be screenshot for the world to see. Hence the silence, and probably asking Dawn to handle it. 

I do have some sympathy for Cate, because I think it's likely that Dawn did this whole song and dance about how close they would all be, and how lovely an open adoption is. In reality, they have no control and things can change at any time. She WAS so young then, and vulnerable, and feeling pressure from Tyler. I'm glad Carly ended up where she did, but I don't think it was handled well. Or has been since then. Cate needs ongoing therapy. And I think they should just get letters and photos at Bethany's offices and be able to send a gift through them, etc. No addresses, no phone numbers, no visits. It's too much. 

[starfire]

Regarding B&T's other adopted child (who I think is a boy)....I just remembered that I read here awhile back that Cate met the girl who placed her baby with B&T at one of her and Tyler's speaking engagements for Bethany. If I am remembering correctly, the girl came to hear C&T speak, somehow became very close with Cate, and Cate was there for her throughout her pregnancy and adoption. I'm not sure if Cate referred this gal to B&T or what, but apparently Cate and her were so close that Cate was there when the girl handed her baby over to B&T.

I wonder if Cate and her are still close and if she has the same kind of "open" adoption arrangement that C&T have. It would be interesting to know what the relationship and contact has been like and will be between that girl, B&T, and B&T's adopted son. If the arrangement is similar, I'd be curious to know if B&T are more willing to have ongoing visits with this other girl since she is not in the spotlight with pictures of the baby, drama over what should be kept private, dirty laundry, mental health issues, heavy weed use, etc.  It's possible that after a certain amount of time, B&T want to cease visits with all the birthparents. It could be possible that C&T have done things (and not done things) that cause B&T to not feel comfortable continuing visits with them and they might not feel the same way about the other birth mom (and birth dad, if he is in the picture).

[DangerousMinds]

38 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Honestly, I think all contact should have remained through Dawn/Bethany. How does Cate even have Teresa's number to text her in the first place? That's just too close, IMO. All this contact has only served to foster Cate's delusions about B&T just raising their kid for them until she's old enough to come running to her loving mother. The relationship needed more distance, more boundaries. 

From the clip, it seems like they want to cut out the yearly visit. It would be nice if Teresa explicitly stated this, but I'd be afraid any reply I gave would be screenshot for the world to see. Hence the silence, and probably asking Dawn to handle it. 

I do have some sympathy for Cate, because I think it's likely that Dawn did this whole song and dance about how close they would all be, and how lovely an open adoption is. In reality, they have no control and things can change at any time. She WAS so young then, and vulnerable, and feeling pressure from Tyler. I'm glad Carly ended up where she did, but I don't think it was handled well. Or has been since then. Cate needs ongoing therapy. And I think they should just get letters and photos at Bethany's offices and be able to send a gift through them, etc. No addresses, no phone numbers, no visits. It's too much. 

I assume B & T must have given them their phone number. AND they did attend Cate and Tyler's wedding. So some of the boundary issues are definitely on them.

[CofCinci]

12 hours ago, poopchute said:

I think it's just that Catelyn thinks they are so close and have such a good relationship that she can just call them up like you would any friend and try to make plans. I don't think she understands the relationship at all.  Although I will say I don't think they should have come to the wedding, that was weird and I guess makes it hard for them to understand the boundaries of the relationship.  

Yes, B&T made a huge error going to the wedding.

Poor boundaries.  It's hard to get that escaped horse back into the barn. Like @DangerousMinds wrote above, B&T share responsibility for this mess. 

I bet Catelynn got Theresa's cellphone number through one of the producers. 

[evilmindatwork]

As annoying as C&T can be, I think B&T would be pretty shady to cut off things entirely. C&T are hot messes with terrible taste and worse manners, but they are mostly harmless to Carly. B&T should never have agreed to an open adoption if they weren't willing to put up with occasional annoyance and some awkward boundary crossing. 

While Carly is legally B&T's daughter, I think seeing the pain Cate obviously still feels about this adoption has made me see adoption in a newer, less positive light, she made the best decision back then but she was just a kid and didn't really understand what she was agreeing to.  Add in shady Bethany and that's just another layer into the gas lighting some of these birth mothers deal with at a very vulnerable time in their lives. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by evilmindatwork

[Tatum]

14 hours ago, poopchute said:

Oh man, that clip.  Catelyn is just like Tyler, with unrealistic expectations and a sense of entitlement and then not comprehending or coping when things don't go her way.  It's weird that she's texting Theresa repeatedly over anything at all.  This is a woman with a job (?) and two kids so she doesn't have time to engage in all that texting with someone she really doesn't need to talk to AT ALL let alone whenever the urge strikes Catelyn. And then Catelyn expecting a phone call and then being upset when she doesn't get one.  These two are so fucking dense. I can't believe they don't have copies of their own adoption paperwork?! The other day I found a copy of my gym membership contract from 2005.  How do they not have a copy of what is probably the most important document in their lives?  So basically it sounds like Catelyn and Tyler pretty much invited themselves to wherever Brandon and Theresa live and are mad that Theresa isn't saying yes let's do brunch.  I don't know how Brandon and Theresa have put up with this shit for as long as they have.

 

See, this does make me feel a bit bad for Cate. I don't just think Cate has an unhealthy fixation on Carly- I think Cate has an emotional attachment to Teresa. I think Cate is hurt by what she perceives as rejection from Teresa, that isn't even directly related to Carly. Cate wants to call up Teresa and chat her up, the way I would call up my mom, or my aunt, or my sister in law. I think maybe she thought once she had Nova, they'd just be two mothers trading mom stories.

 

As far as why Teresa puts up with it, I don't think it's just pressure from the minions and worries about bad PR for other adoptive couples. Teresa is frustrated with Cate, but that doesn't mean she doesn't care about her. She probably knows Cate is not well emotionally, and  I'm sure she feels horrible adding another rejection to what is already a long list of people who have dropped the ball on Cate, but Carly's safety and wellbeing is Teresa's primary responsibility.

[FlowerofCarnage]

I wouldn't be surprised if Graham's birth mother has moved on with her life and gradually diminished contact with B&T. 

[ReadMeLattice]

That clip honestly made me so angry. The first few years after Carly was born, yes, I could have understood the confusion, but at this point, even your adoption counselor from shady Bethany has explicitly told you you have zero rights. 

Carly is not their child. She has parents and they are NOT Catelynn and Tyler. It would be painful, but I wish someone would openly spell out for them that they are not her parents in any way, any more than a sperm or egg donor or a surrogate is a parent. They never had to REALLY go through the pain of accepting that. They need to.

 On the clip I saw all sorts of comments from fans saying that Cate should "keep fighting for her daughter" and such. That's partly why I think this show does a disservice. People who don't understand adoption are going to get an even more warped view of it from this show. B&T are not co parents, they are not legal guardians, they aren't her parents for now. They are her only, lifelong parents. 

[EmeraldGirl]

I think C&T ARE dangerous. They're talking shit about their child's parents on television. And a clearly biased and crazy crowd of followers still think they should magically get the kid back. It only takes one nutjob. All the info is out there, I'm sure they're not hard to find. Didn't someone call Brandon at work?

[evilmindatwork]

35 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

That clip honestly made me so angry. The first few years after Carly was born, yes, I could have understood the confusion, but at this point, even your adoption counselor from shady Bethany has explicitly told you you have zero rights. 

 

I think they should have been aware they had zero rights from the very beginning. Yes, they SHOULD know at this point, but maybe they would have made different decisions if they had known the cold & hard legal truths when that knowledge could have impacted their choices. Do I think Carly is better off with well-off parents who can pay for her to have ballet classes? Yes. 

But I also think Bethany sold them rainbows and puppies when the openness of the adoption would come down to the dynamic between the birth and adoptive parents.  If the adoption is indeed closing, I feel deep empathy for C&T who gave up their birth daughter without fully knowing how irreversible that 'giving up' would be. Obviously I am not sure about exactly what they were told, or not told, way back then. I do think that there was something super shady about that surrender, on a sidewalk, outside the hospital.

Obviously  B&T need to do what they feel is best for Carly, but C&T are not personally harmful to Carly. I think mostly B&T have been going about doing things the right way, asking C&T not to talk about them on TV etc. I'll hold off on passing judgment until I know exactly what they're asking for, but I'd definitely think less of them if they just shut off contact altogether. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by evilmindatwork

[Birdee]

What never ceases to amaze me is that these once-teen-now-adult moms and dads don't understand that their actions have consequences. Yes Cate, you can get a medical marijuana card and show it off. You can (allegedly) get high on TV. You can lay on the couch and neglect your daughter and your own mental health. But those actions have consequences and right now it looks like those consequences are that you don't get physical visits with Carly. You and Tyler did this to yourselves. Keep doing what you want and learn to live with the repercussions. Welcome to adulthood. When I was teaching I had a poster on my wall that said "You are free to choose, but you are NOT free from the consequences of that choice." My middle schoolers understood it, so these yahoos should too.

Re: Carly running to C&T when shes' 18.

I never see that happening, but before this debacle I could easily see her being a good, well-meaning person and visiting on her own. I'm my mind Carly stands around looking wide-eyed wearing a tastefully expensive cashmere sweater politely nibbling on a hotdog cooked on the squirrel orgy grill while C&T run around in wife beaters and zebra hoodies drinking 40s and telling Carly what she's been missing her whole life.

[Tatum]

I have heard a lot of complaints about Bethany, from both birth parents and adoptive parents, and usually, where there's smoke, there is fire.

 

However, unless there is a lot that was not shown in 16&P, I actually don't think, in C&T's very specific case, that Bethany misled them in any way. When they sit down with Dawn, she asks them, what kind of expectations do you have for an open adoption? Cate said she would like to get pictures and she would like to be able to call Carly once in awhile. That's all she asked for. I never saw any indication that at the time of the adoption, C&T believed they'd have any more of an active role in her life. They don't even mention in person visits during the show. Now, maybe Dawn lied to them after the cameras were done rolling, but I don't believe C&T have ever even implied that they were promised something by Bethany. Their ire seems solely directed at B&T.

[Booger666]

Agree with so many of the posts above and am not surprised B&T are shutting it down. Ever since Tyler kept repeating how at one visit Carly said "daddy" and B wasn't around so Carly must be talking about Tyler. That was creepy and unhealthy. And stupid. Lots of kids say mommy or daddy just assuming their parents are always around.

Im curious, did B&T name Carly or did Cate and Tyler make a name request?

[Tatum]

B&T named her, however, the spelling of her full name is Carolynn instead of Carolyn. The double NN is a nod to Catelynn.

[ReadMeLattice]

24 minutes ago, evilmindatwork said:

I think they should have been aware they had zero rights from the very beginning. Yes, they SHOULD know at this point, but maybe they would have made different decisions if they had known the cold & hard legal truths when that knowledge could have impacted their choices. Do I think Carly is better off with well-off parents who can pay for her to have ballet classes? Yes. 

But I also think Bethany sold them rainbows and puppies when the openness of the adoption would come down to the dynamic between the birth and adoptive parents.  If the adoption is indeed closing, I feel deep empathy for C&T who gave up their birth daughter without fully knowing how irreversible that 'giving up' would be. Obviously I am not sure about exactly what they were told, or not told, way back then. I do think that there was something super shady about that surrender, on a sidewalk, outside the hospital.

Obviously  B&T need to do what they feel is best for Carly, but C&T are not personally harmful to Carly. I think mostly B&T have been going about doing things the right way, asking C&T not to talk about them on TV etc. I'll hold off on passing judgment until I know exactly what they're asking for, but I'd definitely think less of them if they just shut off contact altogether. 

There are many complaints about Bethany so I have to agree there. 

However, 1) they aren't adhering to B&T's requests or their side of the agreements. They've been explicitly asked for years not go discuss B&T on camera. Instead, they regularly badmouth them. They've been explicitly told not to post pictures on social media...Tyler does it anyway. If they want B&T to adhere to their very unofficial agreement, they have to do so too. They don't. 2) A minimal amount of research, and their own adoption papers, would tell them that the agreement isn't legally binding and that they have zero rights. I know they're not the brightest, but they have money. They could have gotten legal advice and figured that out if Bethany truly lied to them. They also could have read their own, very clearly stated documents. That agreement wasn't exactly rocket science/legalese. 

If B&T cut them off, I'd personally respect them far more. They'd be asserting themselves as the actual parents, which would be much kinder in some ways to C&T than what's gone on so far. I think their biggest issue is that they are kind of pushovers. 

[CofCinci]

23 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I have heard a lot of complaints about Bethany, from both birth parents and adoptive parents, and usually, where there's smoke, there is fire.

 

However, unless there is a lot that was not shown in 16&P, I actually don't think, in C&T's very specific case, that Bethany misled them in any way. When they sit down with Dawn, she asks them, what kind of expectations do you have for an open adoption? Cate said she would like to get pictures and she would like to be able to call Carly once in awhile. That's all she asked for. I never saw any indication that at the time of the adoption, C&T believed they'd have any more of an active role in her life. They don't even mention in person visits during the show. Now, maybe Dawn lied to them after the cameras were done rolling, but I don't believe C&T have ever even implied that they were promised something by Bethany. Their ire seems solely directed at B&T.

You can see what they were promised in the screengrabs of the agreement. 

[Tatum]

31 minutes ago, evilmindatwork said:

 I do think that there was something super shady about that surrender, on a sidewalk, outside the hospital.

From what I remember, this was more of a hospital liability issue than Bethany's doing. Cate was a minor at the time and April would not sign the paperwork as her legal guardian. I think the hospital wanted nothing to do with the hand-off and discharged Cate with the baby. I am not sure why Teresa or Brandon couldn't have walked out with her holding the baby, but legal issues are weird. It seemed to me that the baby had to leave the hospital in possession of C&T, as the biological parents.

Just now, CofCinci said:

You can see what they were promised in the screengrabs of the agreement. 

Which appear to have been met, until C&T started disrespecting B&T wishess.

[Tatum]

23 hours ago, AhFillAck said:

It's the "Openness Agreement" (which states that it is not legally binding) but there is another page that we can't see. I don't see why reading that would make Cate cry because it's ancient news, so there must be something on the other page.

Yeah, the disclaimer about it being not legally binding is right above the signature line. Kind of hard to miss that.

[poopchute]

39 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I have heard a lot of complaints about Bethany, from both birth parents and adoptive parents, and usually, where there's smoke, there is fire.

 

However, unless there is a lot that was not shown in 16&P, I actually don't think, in C&T's very specific case, that Bethany misled them in any way. When they sit down with Dawn, she asks them, what kind of expectations do you have for an open adoption? Cate said she would like to get pictures and she would like to be able to call Carly once in awhile. That's all she asked for. I never saw any indication that at the time of the adoption, C&T believed they'd have any more of an active role in her life. They don't even mention in person visits during the show. Now, maybe Dawn lied to them after the cameras were done rolling, but I don't believe C&T have ever even implied that they were promised something by Bethany. Their ire seems solely directed at B&T.

I don't know, I still think Dawn is shady.  Even in this clip, when Catelyn says "so are we done with visits forever" Dawn doesn't say, well that is a real possibility and that is absolutely their legal right.  Instead she says something like oh no, they have always been so open with you so I tbink you would know if that's what they wanted.  That's a terrible answer for two slow people who will cling to that and just think, well Dawn said they wouldn't do that!! I think Dawn doesn't want to lay out the difficult truth to them because they will go bananas and she doesn't want to deal with it.

But just because I think Dawn is shady doesn't mean Catelyn and Tyler aren't also both morons.  They were looking at the adoption paperwork like the last time they saw it was when they signed it. How do they not have copies?!

[GreatKazu]

I remember Cate and Tyler making a big deal over not knowing B&T's last name and wanting more information. Isn't that when Birther Dawn (have to differentiate her from Mama Dawn) facilitated something between C&T and B&T? I thought B&T then gave Catelynn their number so they could then have access without having to go through Birther Dawn and Bethany.

2 hours ago, starfire said:

Regarding B&T's other adopted child (who I think is a boy)....I just remembered that I read here awhile back that Cate met the girl who placed her baby with B&T at one of her and Tyler's speaking engagements for Bethany. If I am remembering correctly, the girl came to hear C&T speak, somehow became very close with Cate, and Cate was there for her throughout her pregnancy and adoption. I'm not sure if Cate referred this gal to B&T or what, but apparently Cate and her were so close that Cate was there when the girl handed her baby over to B&T.

 

I am so out of the loop. I had no idea about this. Color me shocked that Cate had the energy and motivation to help this girl through her pregnancy and the moment when she handed the baby over to B&T. But, Cate didn't have that same energy and motivation to make it on time to her psychiatric appointment. Pfft. 

[Brooklynista]

I wonder if Teresa has kept up with the Carly visits this long out of a bit of guilt.  Something shady went down with this adoption.  Even if it was as simple as taking advantage of two stupid teenagers.  Catelynn at least had no adult in her corner to lean on, to go over paperwork with, to help her navigate the process and understand what she was really giving up.  All she had was Dawn the Broker who was going to tell stupid Catelynn any and everything she needed to so she could get her hands on that new white baby.  Even if April was sober, she was still an uneducated hick who's till be no match for Dawn and her well rehearsed schpiel.

All these years later and Catelynn can maybe see how stupid she was back then.  How she really didn't understand what she gave up and how hurtful the consequences of that would be always be.  

[Tatum]

7 minutes ago, poopchute said:

I don't know, I still think Dawn is shady.  Even in this clip, when Catelyn says "so are we done with visits forever" Dawn doesn't say, well that is a real possibility and that is absolutely their legal right.  Instead she says something like oh no, they have always been so open with you so I tbink you would know if that's what they wanted.  That's a terrible answer for two slow people who will cling to that and just think, well Dawn said they wouldn't do that!! I think Dawn doesn't want to lay out the difficult truth to them because they will go bananas and she doesn't want to deal with it.

But just because I think Dawn is shady doesn't mean Catelyn and Tyler aren't also both morons.  They were looking at the adoption paperwork like the last time they saw it was when they signed it. How do they not have copies?!

You have a point about Dawn not delivering some hard truths to C&T now, but I was more referring the possibility that Dawn made a bunch of promises on B&T's behalf that they had no intention of doing, or lying about the ability to enforce the open adoption agreement.

I mean, from what we saw, C&T told Dawn they wanted X (at time of adoption). The agreement they got was X + Y, signed by all parties, with the large disclaimer that this was a good faith agreement only, not legally binding. I just don't know what else Dawn could have done that made them think Carly was still a shared commodity. 

 

My two cents? This isn't about Carly for either C or T. Tyler waxes on about Carly for his storyline, and to remind people what an awesome sacrifice he made. Cate felt a bond with Teresa and she feels like that bond supercedes the agreement she made. Like, Teresa should want to see Cate for brunch for the purpose of seeing Cate, not because she signed a document 7 years ago that said she would meet her in person once a year.

[Calm81]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Honestly, I think all contact should have remained through Dawn/Bethany. How does Cate even have Teresa's number to text her in the first place? That's just too close, IMO. All this contact has only served to foster Cate's delusions about B&T just raising their kid for them until she's old enough to come running to her loving mother. The relationship needed more distance, more boundaries. 

From the clip, it seems like they want to cut out the yearly visit. It would be nice if Teresa explicitly stated this, but I'd be afraid any reply I gave would be screenshot for the world to see. Hence the silence, and probably asking Dawn to handle it. 

I do have some sympathy for Cate, because I think it's likely that Dawn did this whole song and dance about how close they would all be, and how lovely an open adoption is. In reality, they have no control and things can change at any time. She WAS so young then, and vulnerable, and feeling pressure from Tyler. I'm glad Carly ended up where she did, but I don't think it was handled well. Or has been since then. Cate needs ongoing therapy. And I think they should just get letters and photos at Bethany's offices and be able to send a gift through them, etc. No addresses, no phone numbers, no visits. It's too much. 

 

This! I understand that Carly isn't Cates daughter, legally, but I feel some sympathy for the fact that when she was 16 years old I don't think she was intelligent enough (I'm not calling her stupid, but she may not have understood many of the legal terms and was too afraid or naive to ask questions and just trusted the "adults" in the situation to figure out what was best.) because when I think about my mentality at 16 versus my mentality now that I'm in my early 30s I can assume that I would have signed a lot of papers without going over all the print painstakingly while asking questions about terms I wasn't familiar with.

B&T and C&T are in a weird situation, I mean, B&T went to C&T's (LOL! The name shortcuts) wedding and Theresa had a beautiful heart to heart with Cate looking like they were close and it may have been misleading to Cate (Just to Cate, I understand it wasn't misleading) about their relationship and thought that they could text each other like besties and have extra Ice cream dates with brunches.

I see Cates side of things, like, "I gave you a special gift...my child, and I can't even get an annual visit?" thinking B&T are not appreciative to the blessing they've received. Then I see Theresa's side about how "I gave your birth child a life you couldn't give her at the time (not knowing Cate would become rich a season or two later) and allowed you a chance to further your education and establish careers without being tied down to a child at 16.

 

Ugh, I feel for both of them. This is an emotional situation where both sides are feeling hurt. Aside from all my annoyance by C&T's actions lately, I could never understand what it's like to give a child up that rested under my heart for 9 months. This is where my sympathy for Cate lies and ends. I'm mostly frustrated that she gave her up to better herself with education but never TOOK ADVANTAGE, I mean, that was the reason for giving Carly up. :-(