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S01.E06: Cherry

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Adora provides Chief Vickery with a key piece of evidence in the Ann Nash murder case. Richard probes for details about Camille’s dark past. John’s girlfriend, Ashley, looks to make news for herself. Amma bonds with Camille during and after a wild party.

 

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I will say this for Amy Adams. She definitely knows how to look messed up without going over the top. I loved her spaciness during the party, wandering around these young people and so out of her element. There's one moment when she gives some random kid the most embarrassed smile. Pure charm on her part.

And I liked seeing Richard work, although his methodology seems to be liquoring up the local women. Not sure that is a viable long-term plan dude.

I was hoping for more from Alan, especially when we learn he sleeps on a hideaway couch! Is that to avoid the appearance of two separate bedrooms? 

I can't help but think Camille really should listen to ghost/memory sister. Marion seems to the sharpest cookie at this point.

Also, I think I will respect the show more if they don't show the gang-rape. They've told us about it twice now. I don't really need to see a young actress go through that to get the point. What do you all think? Is it necessary? Do you need to see it to get closure or certainty?

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1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

Also, I think I will respect the show more if they don't show the gang-rape. They've told us about it twice now. I don't really need to see a young actress go through that to get the point. What do you all think? Is it necessary? Do you need to see it to get closure or certainty?

Personally, no. I do think some people are confused, unfortunately, but such confusion could be cleared up through dialogue. We don't need graphic flashbacks for illustration.

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Well, it was definitely rape. And Camille, unable to deal, rationalizes and makes jokes, drinks, and cuts. Props to the guy who tried to apologize. 

This episode also proves that Camille has serious boundaries issues and that Amma is completely fucked up. That girl is a straight up sociopath. John telling Amma that he’s watching her was not flirting; he seems suspicious of her and actually seems to hate her. 

And Adora gets Alan to do her dirty work when it comes to Camille. Wow. 

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10 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Personally, no. I do think some people are confused, unfortunately, but such confusion could be cleared up through dialogue. We don't need graphic flashbacks for illustration.

But tonight's conversation was explicit. He knew what he did. She said it was a train with five guys. He was ashamed. Clearly rape. And I guess now it's 20 years later, he can "confess" without fear of prosecution. Although in all fairness, his fumbled apology did seem rather sincere. It's probably one of the more honest moments she had with a person on this show. That and her former classmate calling her on her cutting. And then Amma's brutal, but honest, evaluation that Camille has never dealt with Marion's death and she's effed up as a result. Yeah, Camille had some direct talk aimed AT her this episode. She's still hiding however. Behind silence, drugs, sarcasm.

Edited by jeansheridan
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43 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but I'm starting to suspect that maybe cherry is a metaphor for something...

Cherry pie for breakfast.

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8 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

But tonight's conversation was explicit. He knew what he did. She said it was a train with five guys. He was ashamed. Clearly rape.

Well, I had personally felt like it was clearly rape even before tonight and last week's discussion thread rather disabused me of that notion. Camille and Richard had already had a conversation about what happened that struck me as just as explicit as this one. Perhaps more so since the word "rape" was used by Richard in that conversation and it wasn't here. Nothing new of significance was revealed here since we already knew it was a train and that the guy who apologized tonight was feeling ashamed about what had happened (from their interaction at last week's town celebration). And a virgin girl is not going to gladly take on a train for her first time having sex. And her body is covered in scars from cutting herself. So I'm not sure if people who were still confused would no longer be confused after tonight's scene, or if they need to have Camille actually say herself that she was raped.

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15 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

So I'm not sure if people who were still confused would no longer be confused after tonight's scene, or if they need to have Camille actually say herself that she was raped.

There was another HBO movie called The Tale and it takes on this topic. Is the event defined solely by the woman? Is there a crime if she says there wasn't one? And while I naturally wish to respect Camille's perspective, I have a hard time not calling it rape. 

It is a bit like her classmate being blunt about the cutting. She called it out, directly and not unkindly. There was no judgment. 

And this guy who participated in the attack is also being blunt. Camille is suddenly surrounded by people who aren't coming sideways at a problem like her family does.

I want to like Jackie but I hate her games. If you have something to say, say it.

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Camille suspects Natalie bit off part of Ashley's ear.  Why Natalie? 

Also, why did someone call Ashley a baby killer as she left the party?

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36 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

There was another HBO movie called The Tale and it takes on this topic. Is the event defined solely by the woman? Is there a crime if she says there wasn't one? And while I naturally wish to respect Camille's perspective, I have a hard time not calling it rape. 

It's already established that such an event is not defined solely by the person at the crux of it - a child cannot meaningfully consent, for instance.

And there's a difference between what one might say and what one really feels. Camille was unquestionably horribly traumatized by what happened, even if she's not willing to say it out loud because if she did she'd have to deal with the pain of what happened instead of avoiding it in all the ways she currently does. And she does in her way acknowledge that what happened was a crime, because she included it on her crime scene tour. That's all quite different from someone who says and truly means that it was consensual (and can meaningfully consent). But some may still have to hear Camille actually say that she didn't want the train run on her even though there are various things showing she didn't, and in that respect I don't know that the conversation in this episode moved the needle.

6 minutes ago, izabella said:

Camille suspects Natalie bit off part of Ashley's ear.  Why Natalie? 

Also, why did someone call Ashley a baby killer as she left the party?

I can't remember for sure, but wasn't there something in an earlier episode about Natalie having an incident of violence where she attacked a classmate or something? (Or I could be mixing that up with 13 Reasons Why, which I just watched last week.)

And I thought the "baby killer" accusation was thrown at John, not Ashley, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

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1 hour ago, Black Knight said:
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They did a perfect job of adapting the Camille/Amma scenes in this episode. The mood, the vibes, everything. Whenever I think about the book, I recall that sequence first, so I was happy the TV show nailed it.

Ha ha, of course the ex-cheerleader group was watching and sobbing over Beaches. And all the insipid talk...no wonder Camille was practically chugging her wine.

I still can't figure out why Ashley is sticking with John. All she cares about is popularity and he does nothing for that and didn't even before he became a murder suspect.

Of course when Alan finally snaps and yells at someone, it's at Camille about poor, poor Adora.

Richard investigating Camille made me uncomfortable. If she doesn't want to tell you, Richard, that's her right. You can either accept that or walk away, but sneaking around behind her back to learn the truth isn't cool. Why don't you focus on the murder investigation?

I know! First he's always at the bar or in bed, he finally gets off his duff and starts doing something, and it's investigating Camille. With all these murders just happened!

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I think the main reason I didn't like this episode is because I just don't like scenes of characters getting high. In this show or any other TV series, they always make the experience of drugs look so boring. People walk around looking vacant, there's music with lots of reverb, and stuff looks kind of colorful. That doesn't look like anything I would ever want to experience. I don't think the film medium has ever figured out how to convey how getting high is enjoyable on any level because it's all visual. We as the audience are just watching it and thinking, "Well you're certainly detached from objective reality. It makes you look kind of stupid right now." All I'm left with is impatiently waiting for them to get back to sober reality so we can move the story again. 

And instead the episode ends with the two sisters lying in bed together and pretty much no progress has otherwise been made. Big Little Lies was much better at pacing this stuff. 

Edited by Xantar
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10 minutes ago, Xantar said:

And instead the episode ends with the two sisters lying in bed together and pretty much no progress has otherwise been made. Bi

I totally agree with you regarding watching drug use on film. It is tedious at best.

But I do think we had progress. The bike was found, Richard knows about Camille's hospital stay and the roommate dying of poison, we know Ashley was maimed by Natalie  (or Camille believes so), and we have a third person confirmation of Camille's rape if there was any doubt.

Also, I saw some progress in Camille. She hugged Gayla. Her classmate talked about the cutting and Camille didn't deny it or make a joke. She let her sister touch her scars. Oh and she was quite direct with Alan. And directly angry with her mother about hiding the bike discovery.

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This series is trying my patience. If I wanted to experience the awkwardness of being a teenager, I have my own memories to go back to. The party, drinking and getting high was tedious. There are 2 minutes of information on the case mixed in with 45 minutes of the show giving us Camille's crappy upbringing, drinking, underage drinking, getting high, sex, unprotected sex, drinking, oh, and drinking.

Every. Single. Week.

Two episodes. I may skip and just watch the last two.

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3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also, I think I will respect the show more if they don't show the gang-rape. They've told us about it twice now. I don't really need to see a young actress go through that to get the point. What do you all think? Is it necessary? Do you need to see it to get closure or certainty?

Agree with you completely.

I totally don't understand how the bike was found and who found it and how.

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30 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

I totally don't understand how the bike was found and who found it and how.

Adora said a couple of workers found it, but that's all she said, so it's still a mystery.  And then Richard said he'd need the employment records of everyone who's worked at the pig farm going back 5 years.

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5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Adora said a couple of workers found it, but that's all she said, so it's still a mystery.  And then Richard said he'd need the employment records of everyone who's worked at the pig farm going back 5 years.

Ok thanks! I definitely remember all those components but I keep thinking how did someone find a small bike yet have to have it pulled out the way they did and why was Adora involved it was all very hinky. What is with the pig farm in general I can't wait to find out. Like, why was Camille follwing Amma there why was Amma there and how did Camille even know to follow her there. 

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5 hours ago, Black Knight said:
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They did a perfect job of adapting the Camille/Amma scenes in this episode. The mood, the vibes, everything. Whenever I think about the book, I recall that sequence first, so I was happy the TV show nailed it.

Ha ha, of course the ex-cheerleader group was watching and sobbing over Beaches. And all the insipid talk...no wonder Camille was practically chugging her wine.

I still can't figure out why Ashley is sticking with John. All she cares about is popularity and he does nothing for that and didn't even before he became a murder suspect.

Personally, I hope she has a modicum of sense and chose him because he seems like the least likely candidate to give her STD.

3 hours ago, izabella said:

Camille suspects Natalie bit off part of Ashley's ear.  Why Natalie? 

Also, why did someone call Ashley a baby killer as she left the party?

She’s investigating the murders, so it makes sense to me her mind would wander in that direction. And Natalie being John’s sister means that Ashley likely spent some time with her.

John went out the door right before her. It was directed at him.

How easily Camille, a grown woman, lets herself be manipulted by a psycho, bratty 13-year-old is too messed up for words. As always, I blame Adora for training her to wish for approval. But I do give Camille heaps of credit for how cool she played it when Adora came into the kitchen the morning after their talk.

Glory be, we have found one normal, non-vile person in that place - Camille’s old classmate. Those other women are just crazy, although amusing from time to time. I straight up chuckled when the brunette was shimmying to get onto the chair next to their hostess.

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I think we all need to dispel with the rape speculation.  The bottom line is, what happened in those woods was wrong.  It was wrong for the boys and it was wrong for Camille.  We are talking about one event in which half a dozen adolescent males had sex with a single, adolescent female.  Would it be worse if the sex was overtly "non-consensual"?  Yes, of course.  But we've already established that their ages alone rule out the possibility for sexual emancipation and maturity---I think we can all agree that a bunch of 16-yr-olds are not mature or responsible enough to participate in a consensual orgy.  In fact, I would argue that the event was traumatic for all of the children.  Sure, it's easy to lay blame on the teenaged boys.  But boys at that age are not sexually or emotionally mature, either.  And the pressure to prove sexual dominance and conquest is much greater for them, than it is for their female peers.

Let's consider the one boy (now a man) who seems genuinely troubled by what happened.   He is disturbed.  He wants to apologize to Camille.  He wants to talk about it.  Because he feels how wrong it was --- the mob mentality, combined with alcohol and raging hormones --- it was more of a sexual frenzy, than sex.  Perhaps every one of these children was a victim of this event, however to varying degrees.

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I'd like to revise my statement and say that there is rape in this story.  The town of Wind Gap is founded on rape culture -- all the way back to Calhoun Day.  And I have never heard of such a despicable tradition, where a high school football team takes a "willing" cheerleader into the woods, for some good old fashion, turn-based sex.

Wind Gap is raping it's youth with its warped stories, its secrets, and its lies.  It is a wicked little predatory town.  None are safe there.

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To be clear, I never doubted it was rape. I just would prefer the show doesn't show the attack in full. 

The Ashley ear thing is bugging me. How do we know about this? Did we see her ear at some point?

Also was Gayla making a boatload of cherry pies? Details seem to matter on this show.

And why were Amma's boys dressed like they were doing a low rent Book of Mormon? 

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27 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

To be clear, I never doubted it was rape. I just would prefer the show doesn't show the attack in full. 

The Ashley ear thing is bugging me. How do we know about this? Did we see her ear at some point?

Also was Gayla making a boatload of cherry pies? Details seem to matter on this show.

And why were Amma's boys dressed like they were doing a low rent Book of Mormon? 

Good lord those boys are bad actors. The one hitting on Camile sounded like he was reading off a teleprompter. When Amma was skating behind Camille she kind of looked like a preadatory bird sweeping in for the kill.

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Richard is trying to get a handle on what crimes are being committed against women in Wind Gap, and why it goes on, to this day, and the police don't seem to be able to stop it. He also has a gut feeling that Adora runs the town, and maybe she's covering up something.  Didn't Elizabeth Perkins character tell him "now you're getting warm", as in, figure out what Adora did to Camille. 

He called her experience in the woods rape at the offset, and I think she's saying it was consensual just to deal with it,  facing the fact five boys raped you when you were 16-17 is a hard thing to face. 

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8 hours ago, izabella said:

Adora said a couple of workers found it, but that's all she said, so it's still a mystery.  And then Richard said he'd need the employment records of everyone who's worked at the pig farm going back 5 years.

But how did they find it? If it had to be winched out of the muck by a machine of some kind, how would some worker see it in there in the first place? Were they in the poop swamp?!

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Also, why did someone call Ashley a baby killer as she left the party?

I assume that was directed at John, not Ashley. 

Edited by TattleTeeny
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I spotted a cutter this weekend. At first I thought just a scar on her arm but it was several lines on her forearm and then several lines again farther up. And there's no way with 3-4 repeated lines that this was a result of some kind of car accident. Unfortunately in her job she doesn't have Camille's freedom to choose her long sleeves, she had a short sleeved uniform shirt. It did make me worry about her.

I'm glad we are getting somewhere, even if people are yelling at the wrong people.

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Amma seems to come home quite late for a young girl yet Adora doesn't say anything.  How old is Adora?  Amma's about twenty years younger than Camille.

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It stood out to me that the actor who plays John has the body of a 30-year-old. (A very fit 30-year-old, for sure - but a 30-year-old nonetheless.)

That really was a casting fail, because it's distracting how he's obviously significantly older than the character he's playing. No way in hell would Camille see him in the bar in the first episode and assume he was too young to be there legally.

Edited by Blakeston
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10 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

stood out to me that the actor who plays John has the body of a 30-year-old. (A very fit 30-year-old, for sure - but a 30-year-old nonetheless.)

He is 23 in real life, probably 22 when they filmed. He does look older with his hairstyle. Amma is 19 in real life too, but she does look 15 in my opinion.

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Sheriff wants the killer to be a migrant worker SO BAD, it's all he'll consider. It's disturbing.

I was really hoping to get somewhere with this episode, but nope. Just a god-awful teen party and a drug trip. The bike doesn't even  matter to me.

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Imagining things, or did I hear Amma whisper "I can't remember being inside you" to Camille while they were out on the lawn?

So close to turning on the closed captioning.  Even with the volume cranked, I still miss half the dialogue. 

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Anyone else starting to feel like devoting 8 hours to this story is maybe about 4 hours too many? I'm getting really impatient and I'm ready for it to end.

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This series is trying my patience. If I wanted to experience the awkwardness of being a teenager, I have my own memories to go back to. The party, drinking and getting high was tedious. There are 2 minutes of information on the case mixed in with 45 minutes of the show giving us Camille's crappy upbringing, drinking, underage drinking, getting high, sex, unprotected sex, drinking, oh, and drinking.

Ditto. I get that the show is more interested in character study than plot but a little more of the latter would improve the pacing considerably.

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I think the main reason I didn't like this episode is because I just don't like scenes of characters getting high. In this show or any other TV series, they always make the experience of drugs look so boring.

The other problem is that the show is so rife with flashbacks and illusions/imagination you can't tell half the time what's real and what's not. When Amma and Camille were skating together, for example, I wasn't sure whether that was literally happening or just some kind of dream sequence. 

Also, I myself did some partying in my heyday, and let me tell you. Drink? Sure. Take Oxy? Sure. Take Molly? Sure. But . . . pick one of those things. Cripes, all three together? Why aren't they dead?

I'm not really buying into this trope that Camille is such a high-functioning alcoholic she can just drink non-stop all day long and still get up and go to work the next day. Especially if she's taking drugs on top of that. Next week I'm sure she'll be up and about at the crack of dawn like nothing happened. That's not real.

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1 hour ago, snarts said:

Imagining things, or did I hear Amma whisper "I can't remember being inside you" to Camille while they were out on the lawn?

So close to turning on the closed captioning.  Even with the volume cranked, I still miss half the dialogue. 

ooooooooooooh. hmmmmmmmmmmm. I wanna share a theory, here, one that I've only shared with my husband.  (Full disclosure, I did not hear Amma say that, but it serves my theory VERY well.)

I think Amma is Camille's daughter, probably from the rape in the woods.

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4 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:
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Also, why did someone call Ashley a baby killer as she left the party?

I assume that was directed at John, not Ashley. 

Ok, but there have been no babies killed.  Two teen girls, including his sister, yes.  Babies, no.

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Right. But it's a not-uncommon figure of speech for a murderer of children.

 

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I'm not really buying into this trope that Camille is such a high-functioning alcoholic she can just drink non-stop all day long and still get up and go to work the next day. Especially if she's taking drugs on top of that. Next week I'm sure she'll be up and about at the crack of dawn like nothing happened. That's not real.

If I remember right, quite a few of us in here have confirmed, from personal experience with such people, that it is indeed possible and all too real.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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22 minutes ago, zobot81 said:

ooooooooooooh. hmmmmmmmmmmm. I wanna share a theory, here, one that I've only shared with my husband.  (Full disclosure, I did not hear Amma say that, but it serves my theory VERY well.)

I think Amma is Camille's daughter, probably from the rape in the woods.

But in the flashbacks (where Camille has short hair) Amma is way too old to be her daughter, no? 

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We saw more in this episode how Camille has words carved all over her back as well as other places.  My question is how does Camille reach around to cut herself there?  It's possible to scratch yourself with something sharp in that area, but is she really that flexible to cut actual words that you can read?  Or... did someone else start this cutting on her as a punishment?  Adora?  Or Alan maybe?  I find him very creepy and I think there's something else going on underneath his controlled personality.

I noticed last night also that Camille isn't using the iPod of her dead roommate anymore either.  She's dealing with people more than using music and even the earbuds to block everything else out to escape. 

@bijoux thanks for the correction on Alan's name... 

Edited by eclectcmoi · Reason: Paul/Alan correction
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1 hour ago, snarts said:

So close to turning on the closed captioning.  Even with the volume cranked, I still miss half the dialogue. 

I had it on, but I was half asleep last night so I started re watching this morning. I turn on CC a lot, esp British shows. 

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7 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

But in the flashbacks (where Camille has short hair) Amma is way too old to be her daughter, no? 

Whether Camille was 14 or 17 when the rape occurred (I don't recall exactly), she could have become pregnant.  Amma was not alive when Camille was a teenager -- perhaps you are confusing Amma with Camille's deceased half-sister, Marian, who died when both girls were in their teens.  Marian is the ghost who shows up from time to time in Camille's visions and dreams.  She's the one who held Camille's hand at the end of this episode and said, "It's not safe for you here."

Marian has been dead for decades.

Amma is very much alive, and around 15-yrs-old.

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17 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

But in the flashbacks (where Camille has short hair) Amma is way too old to be her daughter, no? 

If anything, I think Amma is too young to be a product of that rape. I got the impression she was born after Camille left home for college. And I think Camille still wasn't a senior when she was raped. She read younger to me. 

15 minutes ago, eclectcmoi said:

We saw more in this episode how Camille has words carved all over her back as well as other places.  My question is how does Camille reach around to cut herself there?  It's possible to scratch yourself with something sharp in that area, but is she really that flexible to cut actual words that you can read?  Or... did someone else start this cutting on her as a punishment?  Adora?  Or Paul maybe? I find him very creepy and I think there's something else going on underneath his controlled personality.

I noticed last night also that Camille isn't using the iPod of her dead roommate anymore either.  She's dealing with people more than using music and even the earbuds to block everything else out to escape. 

Do you mean Alan? I can't remember a Paul. 

Didn't Camille either smash or throw away the iPod in an earlier episode? Likely the one that highlighted the roommate. 

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8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Didn't Camille either smash or throw away the iPod in an earlier episode? Likely the one that highlighted the roommate. 

Yeah, I think she rummaged around in the grass next to the road and found it though.  If I recall correctly, she threw it away towards the end of one episode, and then the next episode started with her in the ditch looking for it.  I was confused about what was going on, but I think they showed her holding it, with the screen all cracked, after she climbed out of the ditch.

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2 hours ago, snarts said:

Imagining things, or did I hear Amma whisper "I can't remember being inside you" to Camille while they were out on the lawn?

So close to turning on the closed captioning.  Even with the volume cranked, I still miss half the dialogue. 

I couldn't hear what Amma said because I couldn't hear a damn thing!  I had the volume cranked up double and still couldn't hear what they were saying.  Epic fail sound editors! Epic fail!

41 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

But in the flashbacks (where Camille has short hair) Amma is way too old to be her daughter, no? 

Because that was Marian, the dear departed dead sister, not Amma.

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If I remember right, quite a few of us in here have confirmed, from personal experience with such people, that it is indeed possible and all too real.

It's possible to be a high-functioning alcoholic, but not in the way it's being portrayed on this show. And not so that you would still look like Amy Freaking Adams either.

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