S05.E09: Honk If You're Horny

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza and Kelsey find themselves at odds when a self-made billionaire pitches a book on power to Millennial. Lauren proves her worth.

Original airdate: 8/7/18

Edited August 9, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dubbel zout]

Michael Urie and Laura Benanti? Guest star bliss!

Diana and Lauren were very funny.

I really liked that Kelsey called both Liza and Charles on their relationship affecting Millennial. Charles, especially, deserved it for buying a book Kelsey had passed on. He needs to get off his high horse that the publishing house is his business. He either lets Kelsey run the imprint or he doesn't.

It also sucks that Kelsey has to keep Liza and Charles's relationship secret.

I like that Diana is fine with Enzo having done porn. It's nice to see her loosening up.

[voiceover]

Ugh.  Glass houses much, Kelsey?  In another world I'd say she had a point.  With her track record for bedding authors, I'll say, Wow; fuck you!

Another Darren Star borrow from himself...SATC's Anthony told Charlotte that Stanford's boyfriend had been a male escort named Paul.

I forgot about Lauren's "wipe the Internet" gift!  Nice callback.

[Jeopardy15]

Kelsey was being a petty beeyotch! Liza did not “stab her in the back”. I wish Charles would have laid into her a bit more.  Apparently, Kelsey is so easily influenced by that “Claw” author that she can’t think for herself.  

[dubbel zout]

At least Kelsey sleeps with her authors after they've signed their contracts. Charles is actively undercutting her. Team Kelsey here.

[chybee23]

I've been really enjoying the episodes these past few weeks. The Enzo/Diana plot went how I expected - very happy Diana didn't have any major issues with it. Appreciated Enzo's point about not being in his twenties and coming with baggage. Oh, and god, I thought his honk was an alarm when we first heard it, haha. Also, I'm all for any opportunities to but her and Lauren into scenes together. 

And Kelsey - pot calling the kettle black, much? I understand her concern and frustration about Charles buying the book, though, she sleeps with authors with no regard for how it'll affect the imprint which isn't just hers - Liza's brand is also on the line every single time. She's another one with piss poor judgement who hasn't earned a 'long leash' imo, and she was being unfair to Liza. She's also very comfortable to speaking to her boss any kind of way. For Charles' business faults, I think he handled the situation professionally and in a very classy way while having every right to remind her his personal life is none of her business. I'd rather Liza didn't say she would always choose Kelsey, (I feel like that's a one way street) but that was so, so in character. Kelsey's speech gracious - by that point, I wasn't moved, but I'm glad what Liza said resonated. 

Personally, I thought the scenes between Charles and Liza looked and felt very natural. There's definitely the vibe of two people figuring out what their new dynamic was like, and the kitchen scene was simple and kind of refreshing - especially seeing Charles so relaxed (and man, that scruff). And they may not be playing dodgeball, but Liza looks at ease and like she's have a great time so it's just nice to see these two happy after the way the first half of the season went. It's also nice to see them actually addressing issues that arise; it's really mature and I find them to be on equal footing. Preferably, they wouldn't have to keep their relationship a secret, but I can't blame them for wanting to actually work out the intricacies first, like, at all. I really do believe he'll end up stepping down at the end of the season and the work dynamic will be squashed. 

And it was awesome seeing Redmond again. 

[voiceover]

33 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

At least Kelsey sleeps with her authors after they've signed their contracts. Charles is actively undercutting her. Team Kelsey here.

So let her beef be with Charles & Charles alone.  Liza didn't go to Charles with the book & say, Please read this and agree with me.  And Kelsey should've known that Liza wouldn't do that.

Charles, OTOH, has vetoed Kelsey before.

[dubbel zout]

How can Kelsey's beef be with Charles alone? Liza gave him a manuscript Kelsey had rejected. Like I wrote earlier, either Kelsey is in charge of Millennial or she isn't.

I agree that Kelsey shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that Liza went over her head to Charles, but it's not as if Liza proactively explained what happened. Kelsey had to find out from Redmond. Trust works both ways.

[Aulty]

Lauren and Diana as characters have both brought a special dynamic to the groups they interact with and getting them together was well worth the wait. To me, those two are what keeps this show fresh. I hope we'll see more of that, and that they might throw Maggie in the mix too.

And Lauren should also meet Redmond, that would be a blast.

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

How can Kelsey's beef be with Charles alone? Liza gave him a manuscript Kelsey had rejected. Like I wrote earlier, either Kelsey is in charge of Millennial or she isn't.

I agree that Kelsey shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that Liza went over her head to Charles, but it's not as if Liza proactively explained what happened. Kelsey had to find out from Redmond. Trust works both ways.

OK, but I do think Charles is within his rights to override Kelsey no matter how that came to be.  I'm on his side in pointing out that it's his company and his personal life.  Although I'm very used to working as a subordinate in a large company and accustomed to just accepting that my superiors have the right to do that kind of thing whether or not I like it.  I will agree that Kelsey has a right to be uncomfortable with having yet another secret to keep for both Liza and now Charles too.  I get it that her discomfort is part of this situation and agree that she really shouldn't be dragged into that, plus feel like she has no control over the decisions that are made with her work.  That really sucks, but given how many times Kelsey's dated her clients without considering how it might affect her work, a big part of me is saying, "touché".

Edited August 8, 2018 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, voiceover said:

Another Darren Star borrow from himself...SATC's Anthony told Charlotte that Stanford's boyfriend had been a male escort named Paul.

I knew that little sub plot seemed familiar!  I'm also pretty sure, although I can't remember the specifics, that there was a guy one of the SATC women dated that had a particular unique bedroom "quirk" like that fog horn sound Diana's BF makes in bed.  Something that later one of the other women recognized, so they knew they had slept with the same guy.  Maybe someone else remembers it?

[paulvdb]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

OK, but I do think Charles is within his rights to override Kelsey no matter how that came to be.

That is true. But Kelsey should not have found out about that from Redmond. Charles should have discussed that with Kelsey or he should at least have informed her about his decision before he told Redmond.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Yay, Laura Benanti!

I love Lauren and Diana together so I'm glad that they will be working together in the future.

Although I understand why Kelsey is upset, that hypocrite doesn't have a leg to stand on considering how many coworkers, clients, competitors, etc. who she has fucked, screwing the company in the process almost every time. On top of that, her assumption that Charles' judgment was affected by his relationship with Liza was pretty funny considering that the reason she passed on that first book was because of HER personal feelings about the author being an asshole.

Aren't Kelsey and Liza supposed to be running Millennial together? Kelsey made the decision to pass on that book on her own without even discussing it with Liza which seemed like a dick move for someone to do to their partner.

Kelsey's accusation that Liza went behind her back, was ridiculous considering that she heard exactly what happened. She knew that Liza did not give Charles the book on purpose to try to get Charles to buy the manuscript. Liza told her exactly what happened - she gave Charles the manuscript as an excuse to be seen with him in public.

I like that Diana was willing to overlook Enzo's porn past instead of just dumping him. Like he said, he's 40 so he comes with baggage.

[vegacal]

I didn't understand why Kelsey had Liza read the manuscript at all, since she'd already decided to pass on it no matter how much Liza liked it. 

[voiceover]

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

 

I agree that Kelsey shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that Liza went over her head to Charles, but it's not as if Liza proactively explained what happened. Kelsey had to find out from Redmond. Trust works both ways.

So Liza should've texted Kelsey on the way home from the restaurant that night, explaining she'd panicked and used the manuscript as cover (while also breaking the news that she & Charles are an item)?  Or told her in the elevator the next morning, Diana's presence notwithstanding?

IMO, Liza didn't think Charles would actually read the manuscript -- or having read it, immediately turn on a dime, email Redmond & agree to publish.   Would Liza have admitted what happened if she'd had more than five seconds alone with Kelsey before the news broke?  Not how events unfolded so we'll never know.   

Kelsey reacted like she sometimes does -- assuming it was all about *her.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

IMO, Liza didn't think Charles would actually read the manuscript -- or having read it, immediately turn on a dime, email Redmond & agree to publish.   Would Liza have admitted what happened if she'd had more than five seconds alone with Kelsey before the news broke?  Not how events unfolded so we'll never know.   

This is exactly the conclusion I came to. Liza thought Charles would sit and pretend to read the manuscript long enough to make it seem like that's what he was at the restaurant for. She didn't think he'd read it and buy it. He definitely should've told Kelsey before she heard it through the grapevine, but that's not surprising to me that he didn't -- he's seemed very "oh, by the way" with his business thus far.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I love Lauren and Diana together so I'm glad that they will be working together in the future.

I know, the two of them are gold together!  So many of us on the board have been hoping for this.  I just wonder why the show took so long to make it happen!

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I like that Diana was willing to overlook Enzo's porn past instead of just dumping him. Like he said, he's 40 so he comes with baggage.

Yes, and this makes Diana overlooking Liza's lie look probable for the same reason, but when she finds out about her relationship with Charles, that may all fly out the window.

[bichonblitz]

I can't help it, I like Charles and Liza together. They are much better suited to each other than Josh and Liza. It looks like Josh is going to be all in his feelings again next episode. Please, spare me. That horse has been beaten to death. 

[dubbel zout]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

his personal life

He's mixing business with his personal life, and both of those affect Kelsey in major ways. If Liza and Kelsey didn't work so closely together, I'd totally agree Charles's personal life was irrelevant.

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Aren't Kelsey and Liza supposed to be running Millennial together?

I think Kelsey runs it, i.e., has the final say in decisions (except when Charles butts in, LOL), but Liza has a certain amount of autonomy. The show could be a little clearer about this, definitely.

[sacrebleu]

maybe it's a generational thing-- but I could never imagine talking to the boss the way Kelsey talked to Charles. That snide comment about getting Liza to ask him for the money for the billionaire's book was NOT a good look for her. It was unprofessional and basically some serious mean girl bullshit.

[politichick]

12 hours ago, voiceover said:

So let her beef be with Charles & Charles alone.  Liza didn't go to Charles with the book & say, Please read this and agree with me.  And Kelsey should've known that Liza wouldn't do that.

Charles, OTOH, has vetoed Kelsey before.

As is his right as the owner of the publishing house. And since he actually read the book and saw it would be a bestseller, I don't blame him at all. I understand Kelsey's frustration, but the way she approached him was just fucking rude and her passive-aggressive behavior in the meeting with the Claw lady also was out of line.

I love Lauren. She and Diana also are the only ones with an interesting wardrobe. Kelsey used to have great clothes, but her taste has become questionable. Liza is dressing better since she and Charles got together but is still pretty bad.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I know, the two of them are gold together!  So many of us on the board have been hoping for this.  I just wonder why the show took so long to make it happen!

Yes, and this makes Diana overlooking Liza's lie look probable for the same reason, but when she finds out about her relationship with Charles, that may all fly out the window.

Agree that Diana won't be too upset or upset at all about Liza's age, and may actually have already figured it out, but when she learns about the romance with Charles, she will be pissed. Hopefully not too much now that she's with Enzo.

[allonsyalice]

“I like you but I don’t need to.” Power move. Diana Trout is BDE defined.

[slaterain]

18 minutes ago, allonsyalice said:

“I like you but I don’t need to.” Power move. Diana Trout is BDE defined.

had to look up BDE! :D I totally agree! 

I thought I heard "I like you but I don't need you" - either way works but slightly different in that she doesn't need a publicist...

[Bort]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

He's mixing business with his personal life, and both of those affect Kelsey in major ways. If Liza and Kelsey didn't work so closely together, I'd totally agree Charles's personal life was irrelevant.

And if Kelsey had any semblance of self control at keeping her personal life separate from work, I'd agree, but as it is, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[allonsyalice]

1 hour ago, slaterain said:

had to look up BDE! :D I totally agree! 

I thought I heard "I like you but I don't need you" - either way works but slightly different in that she doesn't need a publicist...

hahaha very very possible! My hearing isnt great and I usually would use captions. I should have double checked the line before posting. either tho, im not wrong

[voiceover]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I knew that little sub plot seemed familiar!  I'm also pretty sure, although I can't remember the specifics, that there was a guy one of the SATC women dated that had a particular unique bedroom "quirk" like that fog horn sound Diana's BF makes in bed.  Something that later one of the other women recognized, so they knew they had slept with the same guy.  Maybe someone else remembers it?

It's from "The Chicken Dance" in Season 2 (A-plot: A friend of Miranda's falls in love with her interior decorator & proposes within a week; Charlotte calls it "Love at first sight!"; Samantha calls it "Two people justifying a week of nonstop fucking."*).

Not surprisingly, Samantha is the one who recognizes the behavior (the guy cries out, "Pull my hair!" prior to climax) while she's bedding him...because she'd slept with him years before.  And didn't remember until that moment.  She later refers to him as a "Deja fuck".

*my favorite SATC line

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Is living on the UES embarrassing? I thought it was the wealthiest part of Manhattan. Or is it just not the IT neighborhood of the moment? Because Darren Star thinks people change their homes the way they change clothes. 

[BellyLaughter]

7 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

maybe it's a generational thing-- but I could never imagine talking to the boss the way Kelsey talked to Charles. That snide comment about getting Liza to ask him for the money for the billionaire's book was NOT a good look for her. It was unprofessional and basically some serious mean girl bullshit.

Kelsey is a mean girl....a leopard never changes its spots....

[MissLucas]

Wow, in real life Kelsey would be in massive trouble for the way she talked to her boss - and not for the first time. And of course there's the pot-kettle business, except Hilary Duff looked extremely orange in all her scenes.  It was distracting - in the scene with Lauren and Josh these two looked like vampires compared to her. And later in the office you could see that her hands were several shades paler than her face. She must have crossed someone in the make-up department.

Diana and Lauren are great together - maybe get them a spin-off and add Maggie to the mix. Poor Josh is still hanging around all those fabulous ladies with nothing to do.  

[MissEwa]

I could be way off the mark but I read the whole Charles-Redmond thing differently and thought Charles knew he and Liza were busted, and in part he bought the book as a way to keep Redmond from causing trouble (much like Liza buying that cat book a few seasons ago, but this one was actually good). I thought Kelsey read it that way as well which is why she was so furious. 

I know I have to let go of the Josh dream but I liked his easy chemistry with Kelsey etc. when Lauren told her about the award. He was huggy and genuinely thrilled for her but it didn't read sleazy. I'm sad there's not more for him to do. 

Speaking of Kelsey, her hair in this episode was so strange. In that scene where she was accepting the award it was hugely wide and big on her head, and reminded me of those apps where you put your own face into a hairstyle and your can never quite get the size right. 

[LuvMyShows]

15 hours ago, voiceover said:

So Liza should've texted Kelsey on the way home from the restaurant that night, explaining she'd panicked and used the manuscript as cover (while also breaking the news that she & Charles are an item)?  Or told her in the elevator the next morning, Diana's presence notwithstanding?

This is exactly the scene/conversation we would ordinarily have seen on the show, except that this time they didn't do it, because that served the advancement of the plot.

23 hours ago, chybee23 said:

Appreciated Enzo's point about not being in his twenties and coming with baggage. Oh, and god, I thought his honk was an alarm when we first heard it, haha. 

I was actually disappointed in the sound effect they used.  It clearly wasn't a sound from a person, and it ended up removing me from the scene temporarily.

[LuvMyShows]

As with every show on TV, I hate it when the friends of the star character, become the only friends of the remaining characters.  The only other people at whatever the celebration or get-together was when Lauren told Kelsey that she would be winning the award, were Josh (makes sense since he's the roommate), Maggie, and Maggie's girlfriend (really??? a 40+year-old lesbian couple rather than actual friends of Kelsey?).

I also thought Charles and Liza's over-reaction to Redmond at dinner was idiotic.  IRL they would absolutely have rehearsed what they would say if they saw someone they knew.  I don't believe for a second that even if they panicked momentarily, one of them wouldn't have said something like, "Sometimes it's easier to discuss difficult business issues in a more relaxed setting away from the office." 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I totally understand Liza and Charles panicking when Redmond saw them, I thought that two people carrying on a secret relationship would have at least ten prepared excuses for people seeing them together in public. Off the top of my head, I would have had Liza say that she'd just had drinks with a friend and ran into Charles as she was leaving. It easily explains why she was there in a cute (non-work) dress, and people who live in New York know that it's a small enough place that you run into people you know all the time. Charles could have said he'd just had a meeting with someone (and then coyly refused to tell Redmond who it was) and then they decided to grab a bite to eat together.

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

He's mixing business with his personal life, and both of those affect Kelsey in major ways. If Liza and Kelsey didn't work so closely together, I'd totally agree Charles's personal life was irrelevant.

How Charles' personal life affects Kelsey is not a reason for him to censure himself because she doesn't like how it affects her.  She's his subordinate and who he gets involved with is his prerogative given that he owns the business and she basically works for him.  He can mix business with pleasure if he wants to - there's no law against it and if he owns the business he is totally free to engage in it, even if he does risk potential complications with subordinates and sexual harassment allegations if things turn sour with his love interest.  Kelsey can either put up with it or move on.  He shouldn't have to censure himself because she doesn't like how it affects her.  If she feels uncomfortable with it or that it's unfair to her, she's free to leave.  Years ago I worked in a small business where the boss took up with one of his subordinates.  I didn't much care for the change in dynamic, plus the boss increasingly deferred to the opinion of his new love, who didn't like me very much.  Fortunately it was a temporary summer gig so I toughed it out for a few months and moved on, but it was a similar situation in that how I felt about this relationship and how it affected me on the job didn't matter because he was the boss.

[Yeah No]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

It's from "The Chicken Dance" in Season 2 (A-plot: A friend of Miranda's falls in love with her interior decorator & proposes within a week; Charlotte calls it "Love at first sight!"; Samantha calls it "Two people justifying a week of nonstop fucking."*).

Not surprisingly, Samantha is the one who recognizes the behavior (the guy cries out, "Pull my hair!" prior to climax) while she's bedding him...because she'd slept with him years before.  And didn't remember until that moment.  She later refers to him as a "Deja fuck".

*my favorite SATC line

OMG, it's all coming back to me, THANK YOU for posting this, it was bothering me that I couldn't remember it!  Loved that "Deja fuck" line too!  "Friar fuck" was almost as good, if you remember that one - I got married in that church 38 years ago, BTW (and it's not an RC church but Episcopalian)!

Edited August 9, 2018 by Yeah No

[morakot]

Red flags were fluttering throughout for me in this episode. Yes, Charles is behaving immorally, if not illegally. He's having an undercover affair with a woman who is his low-level employee - Liza is still Diana's assistant, with a side job as a principal in Millennial. (What does she get paid? Assistant minimum wage or chief editor salary?) That is already a sexual harassment waiting to happen. It already leaves him open to (inadvertent) blackmail. (I agree with Miss Evo that he bought the book because he thought Redmond was hinting about revealing the affair.)

If he really cared for Liza (and his business), he would have waited to have sex with her when he was legally free (completed his divorce). He would have spun off Millennial into its own separate company. We know the imprint is successful, it's played its part in keeping Empirical afloat. He would have established Liza officially as a senior editor/publish and THEN begun a relationship with her as an independent woman. He's not a horny teenage boy who can't wait. (One the most romantic things I've heard recently was from a man who started a relationship with the premise that his woman friend was the one forever - not just a casual fling.)

The secret relationship is so not sexy for me. I've been in too many of them, and always felt as if I was an embarrassment to the man, and not good enough to be considered an official partner.

I'm worried for the girls too. He's been their primary parent for over a year and he can only cook 4 meals? I guess they've been brought up by nannies and housekeepers (and Liza as baby sitter.)

[bichonblitz]

17 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Is living on the UES embarrassing? I thought it was the wealthiest part of Manhattan. Or is it just not the IT neighborhood of the moment?

It is wealthy and considered by many as "stuffy". Definitely not "hip", like downtown Manhattan or more recently parts of Brooklyn. It's not where young people gravitate to. 

[dubbel zout]

Redmond also said he lived on the UES to avoid the gays, who tend to congregate in Chelsea and the West Village, though it's always changing.

[Lambira]

3 hours ago, morakot said:

Red flags were fluttering throughout for me in this episode. Yes, Charles is behaving immorally, if not illegally. He's having an undercover affair with a woman who is his low-level employee - Liza is still Diana's assistant, with a side job as a principal in Millennial. (What does she get paid? Assistant minimum wage or chief editor salary?) That is already a sexual harassment waiting to happen. It already leaves him open to (inadvertent) blackmail. (I agree with Miss Evo that he bought the book because he thought Redmond was hinting about revealing the affair.)

If he really cared for Liza (and his business), he would have waited to have sex with her when he was legally free (completed his divorce). He would have spun off Millennial into its own separate company. We know the imprint is successful, it's played its part in keeping Empirical afloat. He would have established Liza officially as a senior editor/publish and THEN begun a relationship with her as an independent woman. He's not a horny teenage boy who can't wait. (One the most romantic things I've heard recently was from a man who started a relationship with the premise that his woman friend was the one forever - not just a casual fling.)

The secret relationship is so not sexy for me. I've been in too many of them, and always felt as if I was an embarrassment to the man, and not good enough to be considered an official partner.

I'm worried for the girls too. He's been their primary parent for over a year and he can only cook 4 meals? I guess they've been brought up by nannies and housekeepers (and Liza as baby sitter.)

I agree with you 100%. I also thought Charles was totally disrespectful and an asshole for buying the book and allowing Kelsey to find out from a 3rd party.  Yes, it's his business and he can run it into the ground however he sees fit, but you should treat your employees with decency and respect.  if he was going to override her decision, he should have firmly told her WHY he was doing it, BEFORE he did it.  It's just rude passive-aggressive bullshit, and IMO a signal that he feels that his wishes are more important than anyone else's.  Not a good sign for a respectful long term partnership.  And I thought Liza and Charles' chemistry in the kitchen was a snooze fest.  Still #TeamJosh

[Heathrowe]

I love this show but sometimes the writing does the characters a dis-service. There's no reason for Charles to buy that manuscript overnight. He could have just met with Kelsey in the AM about it. Or did it have to be an Millenium book? If he loved it, Empirical could have bought it.  Kelsey looked like a dumb drama queen. If anything, her partner sleeping with the publisher is GREAT for the imprint-at least for now.

Agree with some of what was said above-they should be taking steps to remove Liza from Millenium now that Kelsey and Charles know she is not actually a milennial. She's proven she has talent and works hard-make her an editor for Empirical, take away any drama about her age lie. But I guess if you take away the drama it's not great for the show.....

It's hard for me to believe Charles is in moral quicksand by sleeping with an underling/employee. It's not like he has a habit of doing so. And in real life, it does happen and it's not always sexual harrassment or a power play. Sometimes it's love.  But-what happens in real life and how things SHOULD be handled doesn't always make great tv. Though-I'm not sure this episode was great tv. Not my favorite.

Glad Diana is sticking with Enzo. I like them together! She is looking beautiful this season, I like how they've softened her look.

[Pine]

I use to like this show a lot more.  It's just not as fun as it use to be.  I won't stop watching it, yet....  :)

[Ailianna]

3 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

If he loved it, Empirical could have bought it. 

He offered to buy it.  Redmond said the author was only selling to Millennial, not to stuffy old Empirical.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I enjoy the show - though I immediately forget I watch it the next day - but god, do I really hate how the writers treat everything.  Everything is so MESSY.  The fact that Charles owns Imprint, but Kelsey 'runs' Millennial, and Liza works for both.  It's so MESSY.  Charles is the boss of EVERYTHING, and yet Kelsey is the "boss" of Millennial.  UGH!  I hate things that aren't clear.  I hate things that aren't direct, to the point, easy to understand, etc.  I'm not trying to say I'm stupid.  Just that this situation does NOT call for haziness and vagueness or intrigue.  This isn't some good mystery or some sexy noir or something so there is no reason for the extremely convoluted design of these companies or the characters' roles; it really really annoys me.

It's so convoluted that I had no idea whether Kelsey knew about Liza and Charles' relationship before Liza's "confession", and after this episode, I still don't know what she knew when or even what she knows now.  

Maybe the guy who plays Charles was really handsome at some point, but he's lost too much weight or I just don't like how he aged.  I don't feel bad saying this either, because usually people find men 'so attractive' when they age while women are treated like garbage.  I don't like how he turned out.  He kinda grosses me out.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Yeah No]

25 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Maybe the guy who plays Charles was really handsome at some point, but he's lost too much weight or I just don't like how he aged.  I don't feel bad saying this either, because usually people find men 'so attractive' when they age while women are treated like garbage.  I don't like how he turned out.  He kinda grosses me out.

Well, you know, that's just like your OPINION, man!  Sorry I've been watching the 20th anniversary showings of "The Big Lebowski".... ;-)

Just shows you how "one man's meat is another man's poison".  Peter Hermann is 10 years younger than me, so I see him as this really cute younger guy, LOL.

[itsreal]

47 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I enjoy the show - though I immediately forget I watch it the next day - but god, do I really hate how the writers treat everything.  Everything is so MESSY.  The fact that Charles owns Imprint, but Kelsey 'runs' Millennial, and Liza works for both.  It's so MESSY.  Charles is the boss of EVERYTHING, and yet Kelsey is the "boss" of Millennial.  UGH!  I hate things that aren't clear.  I hate things that aren't direct, to the point, easy to understand, etc.  I'm not trying to say I'm stupid.  Just that this situation does NOT call for haziness and vagueness or intrigue.  This isn't some good mystery or some sexy noir or something so there is no reason for the extremely convoluted design of these companies or the characters' roles; it really really annoys me.

It's so convoluted that I had no idea whether Kelsey knew about Liza and Charles' relationship before Liza's "confession", and after this episode, I still don't know what she knew when or even what she knows now.  

Maybe the guy who plays Charles was really handsome at some point, but he's lost too much weight or I just don't like how he aged.  I don't feel bad saying this either, because usually people find men 'so attractive' when they age while women are treated like garbage.  I don't like how he turned out.  He kinda grosses me out.

Peter Hermann grosses you out???? Wow. I'm speechless 

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, itsreal said:

Peter Hermann grosses you out???? Wow. I'm speechless 

Not directed at me and I wouldn't go so far as to say he grosses me out but I get where @Ms Blue Jay is coming from. There's something kind of strange and rubbery about him, imo. It's partly in the way he looks but also in his mannerisms and speech patterns - sometimes I actually find him difficult to watch (and definitely to listen to). 

But, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that... 

ETA. The Empirical/Millenial structure stuff is probably born out of something vaguely realistic about publishing houses and imprints. It is messy and decisions get made by all sorts of people - it surprises me that they don't ever have Diana be like 'yeah, no, we're not going to be able to sell that', because that would happen too. The unrealistic bit is that they act like anyone outside the business cares. Most book buyers don't even know who publishes what, and they surely don't care. The writer might, but in reality Charles should have been able to sway him with a good editor and a generous marketing budget.  

Edited August 10, 2018 by MissEwa

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, MissEwa said:

It's partly in the way he looks but also in his mannerisms and speech patterns - sometimes I actually find him difficult to watch (and definitely to listen to). 

This. I'm just not impressed with him. I think he's good looking in the way a stock photo in a picture frame is attractive. He's generically attractive. I get why others find him attractive but it is lost on me because I just don't see anything there, no spark, no charm. He's just a "pretty boy" IMO

 

11 hours ago, MissEwa said:

But, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that... 

But yeah. There is something for everyone. To each his own, etc.

[LuvMyShows]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:30 PM, chybee23 said:

Personally, I thought the scenes between Charles and Liza looked and felt very natural. There's definitely the vibe of two people figuring out what their new dynamic was like, and the kitchen scene was simple and kind of refreshing - especially seeing Charles so relaxed (and man, that scruff).

 

On 8/9/2018 at 1:56 PM, Lambira said:

And I thought Liza and Charles' chemistry in the kitchen was a snooze fest.  Still #TeamJosh

Here's what I realized about why both of these are true, and paradoxically why it all rings false for me.  The scene in the kitchen, which mentioned something about her going into another room to read/edit, seemed like something that a long-established couple would do...which these two are decidedly not.  I don't think for a second that they would be so comfortable in their new couple roles yet, after having been so long in their other boss/subordinate/secret crush roles.  So the kitchen scene was simple/refreshing, but I think it was a scene more believable from weeks/months from now and not from today; and the chemistry was also a snooze fest because it read like an established couple, which they are not.

[Gothish520]

8 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

 

Here's what I realized about why both of these are true, and paradoxically why it all rings false for me.  The scene in the kitchen, which mentioned something about her going into another room to read/edit, seemed like something that a long-established couple would do...which these two are decidedly not.  I don't think for a second that they would be so comfortable in their new couple roles yet, after having been so long in their other boss/subordinate/secret crush roles.  So the kitchen scene was simple/refreshing, but I think it was a scene more believable from weeks/months from now and not from today; and the chemistry was also a snooze fest because it read like an established couple, which they are not.

Yes, very well-put and I agree. How well do Liza and Charles even know each other? Are we to assume they've been seeing each other regularly for days, weeks? It certainly hasn't been months.

An advantage that Sex and the City had was that Carrie's voiceovers helped to move the plot along and establish relationship timelines even if we did not see the developments onscreen. We may have only seen the women dating a guy for two or three episodes, but the voice overs told us that they've been seeing each other for a few weeks or a month or a few months.

[Beantown Gal]

A friend recently asked me which team I was, and after giving it some thought I realized I'm neither because I can see the appeal of both. That said I do feel as though the writers / producers haven't given Charles and Liza the time to develop as a couple the way they did with Josh. If memory serves (and please feel free to correct if it doesn't), the first three seasons we saw Liza & Josh's relationship develop as it would IRL (or at least on a TV show), but they just put Liza and Charles together and *BAM* they have their first real relationship challenge (the claw chick), I'm not sure they will survive this and I am disappointed because I have always wondered how that dynamic would work out.

Additionally I'm not real thrilled with Josh at the moment he does seem to be a little manipulative as of late. I didn't like it (or him) one bit last season when he was blackmailing Liza with her lie, it came across as I lied for you so you owe me this. I would expect this from a frenemy NOT a true friend or someone you deeply cared about. Now it seems like Josh is only interested in Liza because 1). He's coming off of the high of Claire and the crashing of that relationship and 2). He doesn't want to see / hear  about Liza being with Charles because he still has resentment towards him from the Hamptons (even though Josh did give her a free pass because he didn't want her to feel like she missed out on anything).

We'll see how tonight's episode goes.

Lauren is still the only one in that circle that doesn't know Liza's secret, correct? I'm surprised it hasn't slipped out in passing between Liza, Kelsey, Josh and Maggie. I realize Diana doesn't know, I was talking more about her social circle.