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ElectricBoogaloo

S05.E04: The Talented Mr. Ridley

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Soooo...I guess this season's obstacle between Charles and Liza is: Charles being a dick.  And I say that as a massive, series-long 'shipper & Charles apologist.  But, dayum.

Loved Diana's "This party, like my marriage, is too gay for its own good!"  

Did I miss her rejecting Plumber Dude, or is that a retcon?  Because the last I remember, he finished his contract and left without saying goodbye.  Glad to see her dating someone who can pick up a check -- no matter what he drives.  And Diana dear: there's every chance this guy makes as much money as you do.  That's how he knows $500 wine.  I am reminded of an ep of Frasier ("Seat of Power") when John McGinley guested as a now- plumber/then-hs classmate of Niles, who drove a pricier Mercedes than Dr Crane.

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I enjoyed Charles being a dick, but it's going to get old really quickly.

17 minutes ago, voiceover said:

And Diana dear: there's every chance this guy makes as much money as you do.

I'm a little surprised she was so clueless about that. It's not news that plumbers can make really good money. 

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Charles is being a bitter little toddler. Either her lies are trouble for the company or they aren't, but he needs to do something more concrete and proactive to bolster his decision other than snotting at her every chance he gets. Because it's not coming across as professional. It feels really personal. When Kelsey found out, she was a little chillier than usual at work, but most of them couldn't tell. Here Charles is manpaining all over the office because his dream girl doesn't meet his expectations.

Christian Borle! I think it's cool that he and Sutton get along so well. They had great chemistry. Though Charles was right. No publisher would publish that book as non-fiction. They'd be buried in lawsuits.

Diana needs to stop being a Manhattan snob. It's just as provincial as being from a small town or B&T. Also plumbers make good money.

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"Manpaining"!  I love it!!  At last: a word to describe my ex's favorite pastime.  After football.

And three cheers for who we *didn't* see tonight.  Mrs Marriage Vacation herself; though I fear once Charles gets over his bad self, she'll be back to wreak rom com havoc.

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19 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

 

Christian Borle! I think it's cool that he and Sutton get along so well. They had great chemistry.

I just found out that he's the ex-Mr Sutton Foster.

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5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm a little surprised she was so clueless about that. It's not news that plumbers can make really good money. 

Especially if they're "connected", as this one seems to be.

It amazes me that even when Charles shows some emotion he still seems constipated in addition to the emotional immaturity.  Is the show just writing him that way to contrast how much more genuine and real he'll become after he finally consummates his relationship with Liza?  I hope so because this is just awful in addition to being unprofessional.

6 hours ago, voiceover said:

Did I miss her rejecting Plumber Dude, or is that a retcon?  Because the last I remember, he finished his contract and left without saying goodbye.  

I had the same reaction - I can't recall her rejecting him either.

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I was cracking up at Christian Borle stuffing food into a napkin before he left Diana's party like he was a broke college student. I like that Liza is fine with him as he is, writing shitty listicles instead of more prestigious articles for Vanity Fair.

Similarly, I'm glad that Diana gave her plumber a chance and ended up enjoying herself (even if she had to go to *gasp* Staten Island). Hopefully she won't let her snobbery get in the way of a perfectly nice guy who she  clearly finds hot.

Charles has been acting like a spoiled child having a temper tantrum. Meanwhile, Liza was the one being professional and mature. She offered to leave the company once she realized that his attitude was going to negatively affect Kelsey and Millennial. She told him that it was fine for him to be mad at her for lying but that it wasn't fair for him to take it out on authors or the imprint. Liza and Charles are about the same age, but of the two, she was the only one acting like an adult at work.

While I agree that a gossipy book was very potentially litigious, the attitude that Charles had during the entire meeting with Don was the problem (saying no to the idea or pointing out that they could get sued by some very rich and powerful people was not the issue for me). I don't know why Liza didn't suggest that Don do what so many other people have done with gossipy true stories, which is change the names and details enough to be considered fiction and protect them from being sued.

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Christian Borle! I think it's cool that he and Sutton get along so well.

 

4 hours ago, voiceover said:

I just found out that he's the ex-Mr Sutton Foster.

Well, they get along now. After the divorce and the cheating scandal, they scrubbed their marriage from their wikipedia pages and basically acted like their relationship never happened. I guess time heals all wounds though. I'm glad they were able to get over the past and that they're on good terms again. I remember as soon as he was cast on Smash, everyone was like well, that guarantees that Sutton will be the one Broadway actress who never makes an appearance on the show.

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8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I enjoyed Charles being a dick, but it's going to get old really quickly.

I'm a little surprised she was so clueless about that. It's not news that plumbers can make really good money. 

Oops, nvm.

Edited by TVForever

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full disclosure:: i am literally in love with Christan Borle. 

 

that being said, what a good, fun energy he bought to this show. He and Sutton are always amazing together and why would I want Liza with a tall big jerk, when she could be someone who is smart and makes her laugh. 

I am like more anti charles now than I ever have been. 

(but i know show is gonna ruin this thing with him to get charles and liza back together, one million eye rolls.) 

I’m here for maggie and joshs relationship. And I’m glad Josh slept with that cute dog owner. I need him to move on. 

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I root for Liza and Josh, but I also would be glad if they'd let Nico Tortorella off his contract already if they not going to have him as Liza's endgame. He is useless at this point and every scene with him feels like a filler (but honestly every episode this season feels like a  huge disappointment). Kelsey–Zane are useless too, and I can't stand Charles. I don't really think there would be so much melodrama around Liza in a real life. 

I think it's the worst season so far, and only Miriam Shore makes me watch this whole mess. 

Edited by skotnikov
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True confession: I love Christian Borle. Like, he's one of the names on my hall pass list. It's serious.

And I enjoyed Charles being jealous of his character in a dick-ish way. Although his book pitches were indeed a bit lacking -- that gossipy tome would have worked nicely had he just suggested he change the names and blur the details. It's called "thinly-veiled" -- Don, look into it.  (PS: He looked GREAT. Even though we didn't get to see his very appealing arms uncovered.)

Over the pass de deux that Kelsey and Zane are doingzzzzzzzz. Liked Josh and Maggie together -- that needs to happen more often. 

And HOT DAMN for Diana (hopefully) being in a legit relationship. Enjoyed the Staten Island restaurant scene tremendously.

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Why don’t they just do with Ridley’s book what they did with Marriage Vacation, and in a meta sense, the show in general? Turn it into a novel with thinly veiled expies of all the politicians and celebrities? No lawsuit would hold any water, and no one would bring one forth anyway, because that would be a public declaration that the book is true. 

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I wish the show had thought to have Liza spill the beans to Diana before Charles found out. The reason is that if half the people in his company and publishing knew before he did, his anger might be a little more justified. Here are all the people in publishing who know:

  • Annabelle Bancroft, an Empirical author played by Jane Krakowski, who called Liza out on her hands;
  • Cheryl Sussman who blackmails Liza
  • The therapist who Liza tells. She's also a Millenial author;
  • Emily from Entertainment Weekly who blackmails Liza into publishing her dog advice book that Liza has to edit heavily;
  • Kelsey;
  • Josh who almost became a Millenial author;
  • Jay Malik; and
  • Edward L.L. Moore and his lawyers.

If Liza had told Diana and Charles later found out that Bob, the lawyer, knew Liza,  but didn't yet know that Liza is lying about her age for work, it might explain Charles' anger. He'd feel like half of Manhattan had known and was laughing at him. If Diana had known, that would be 2 Empirical employees who knew, 4 Empirical or Millenial authors who knew and 2 Empirical competitors. That's a lot of people.

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Is it weird that Lauren inexplicably doesn't know about Liza's age yet (or did I miss a reveal?).

I'm very excited for Diana's new relationship(?) although, really, UES/Staten Island is pretty much a long distance relationship. But hey, it's TV, everyone always has unlimited time off to flit about. But it was nice to have someone un-creepy see Diana for how awesome she is for once! That's.... pretty much all I liked.

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I don't get why everybody is hating on Charles. Is he supposed to be good with his employee lying on her resume? Or the fact that he and Liza really cared for each other to the point that it could have turned in to a love story only to find out she is a fraud? Because she is good at her job then nothing else should matter? Maybe his snarky little comments are immature but give the guy a second to get himself together and I'm sure he and Liza will eventually have a heart to heart talk once the hurt subsides a bit. She's lucky she still has a job. 

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Did Peter Hermann get huge veneers, or some weird facial Botox? He looks different, and not in a good way, and it's so distracting to me that I can't even be bothered to be annoyed with how petulantly Charles is behaving. 

Empirical isn't failing because people don't read books; it's failing because Charles lacks basic professional skills and business acumen.

This season, for all its major reveals and plot twists we were promised, is a major yawn. The fact that I didn't want the Maggie and Josh scene to end is a bad sign. Liza's jig is up. Totally. 100%. If Charles had two brain cells to rub together he would gladly have accepted a signed letter of resignation and moved on. You don't have a leg to stand on once you resign and sign something. 

I felt in the beginning that this show could survive post-reveal plot, sort of like Mad Men. Pete, Roger, and eventually Betty and Bert Cooper found out that Don was actually Dick Whitman. The show continued and it was still great. In fact, Mad Men was on longer after the reveal than it was before. By continuing with the soggy plot point of Liza's age front and center, this show has gone stale. 

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Yeah.. I’m not sure how I feel about this season right now. I mean.. the whole premise of this show is pretty much out in the open bow(except for Dianna and Lauren who I’m pretty sure hasn’t been told).

But what’s the point of this show now? The title doesn’t make sense and it’s been picked up for another season. I’m not sure where we go from here and it’s kind of boring.

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1 hour ago, bichonblitz said:

I don't get why everybody is hating on Charles. Is he supposed to be good with his employee lying on her resume? Or the fact that he and Liza really cared for each other to the point that it could have turned in to a love story only to find out she is a fraud? Because she is good at her job then nothing else should matter? Maybe his snarky little comments are immature but give the guy a second to get himself together and I'm sure he and Liza will eventually have a heart to heart talk once the hurt subsides a bit. She's lucky she still has a job. 

Most people I've seen don't have a problem with his anger, disappointment, or shock. They have an issue with how petty and unprofessional he's being. I would have no problem with him if he was cold and very professional with her. That she might and did expose his company to a lot of risk is a real and legitimate impediment to the likely Liza and Charles endgame. She's been blackmailed a ton and has done some stupid shady things to continue to keep her secret. He might be able to find that out if he and his lawyers did a debrief with her, but his petty snottery is never going to uncover that.

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1 hour ago, thesupremediva1 said:

Did Peter Hermann get huge veneers, or some weird facial Botox? He looks different, and not in a good way, and it's so distracting to me that I can't even be bothered to be annoyed with how petulantly Charles is behaving. 

I happened to have paused the show right on a scene where his lips were pursed out, just like the look of the actresses who play Alison and Helen on The Affair...very duck-lippy. 

It didn't ring true to me that Liza would have chosen that moment on the street where Charles is clearly pissed, to make a pitch for him getting to know the real her.  First of all, the traits he likes (supposedly falling in love with) are the real Liza already.  But mainly, I thought she was better at 'reading a room' than that, and would have known that was not the right time.  But then again, she did mis-read it an episode or two ago, when she was in his office and he started saying something about how she hasn't been treated fairly in this office (or something like that), and she interrupted him thinking that he meant from the 'personal' perspective, so she went blabbing about her personal feelings about him...when actually, he had meant 'professionally'. 

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Also, what the hell was so hilarious about Ridley and Liza stiffing a server on her tip? They were running out of there like it was wacky fun!

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I’m surprised everything is dead set that Charles is the end game for Liza. I’m still rooting for Josh. And yeah I realize I’m probably alone. I jusd Didn’t realize most his believe it’s charles all the way.

Also there’s a video on Instagram about all the cast talking about Sutton and her ex. Apparently Darren called Sutton and asked how she would feel if her ex husband would come on. Interesting. It’s kind of funny how all the cast was like so excited about the Potential drama!!!

Edited by WhosThatGirl
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5 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Also, what the hell was so hilarious about Ridley and Liza stiffing a server on her tip? They were running out of there like it was wacky fun!

This, a million times!  And it seemed uncharacteristic of Liza, who we've seen being very concerned about things she does impacting people negatively.  I feel like we've especially seen her demonstrate concern for people in a lower station being put-upon, given how Diana treats her at work sometimes.  

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All I have to ask is, what happened to my favorite show?   I think the storylines are stupid and boring, and I don’t like the changes in the attitudes of the characters. 

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6 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Also, what the hell was so hilarious about Ridley and Liza stiffing a server on her tip? They were running out of there like it was wacky fun!

Seriously! I mean, I know somehow this is all going to end so she can be with Charles, so I figured the "Ha ha, stiffing the waitress is a hilarious good time" was going to be that moment. But, no, apparently the woman that is sympathetic to his financial struggle thinks it is fun to add to someone else's. 

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Most of what I thought of the episode has been said here already, especially regarding Charles, but let me emphasise on thing: Diana is stunning! Those gorgeous shots of her in her dressing gown. I wish I could look as good when I reach my 40s.

Again: when will Maggie and Diana meet? - those two teaming up can't be anything short of glorious.

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12 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

It didn't ring true to me that Liza would have chosen that moment on the street where Charles is clearly pissed, to make a pitch for him getting to know the real her.  First of all, the traits he likes (supposedly falling in love with) are the real Liza already.  But mainly, I thought she was better at 'reading a room' than that, and would have known that was not the right time.  But then again, she did mis-read it an episode or two ago, when she was in his office and he started saying something about how she hasn't been treated fairly in this office (or something like that), and she interrupted him thinking that he meant from the 'personal' perspective, so she went blabbing about her personal feelings about him...when actually, he had meant 'professionally'. 

Liza telling him to get to know the "real her" seemed very out of place to me at that moment, plus cringe-worthy as it felt like a self-humiliation and like she was debasing herself to run after a guy that is clearly angry and pulling away from her.  The Liza we have been set-up to know would never do that, at least not at that moment.

But then again I thought the show should have made Charles' reaction a little more conflicted and see-sawing between fascination and anger.  They're playing him so "one note" with the anger and rejection of her that her attempts to get him back are falling flat and not believable under the circumstances.  I personally think they should have made him not confront her with his knowledge of her age right away and play the "Charles has a secret" angle for at least a few more episodes.  There could have been some intrigue out of that.

I wonder if the show thinks it only has one season left after this one, and is rushing some things it probably should have let develop naturally.  Like having Josh's marriage fold so soon.  I would have liked to see his wife create tension between him and Liza for a while before that marriage imploded.  That actually would have felt more believable and satisfying.  Doing away with Claire so soon was kind of a set-up and let down from a viewer perspective.  Now Josh is just a useless dangling character, unless they have some big plans in store for him in the future.

Edited by Yeah No · Reason: Typo.
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15 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Also, what the hell was so hilarious about Ridley and Liza stiffing a server on her tip? They were running out of there like it was wacky fun!

I thought it was a funny scene, but it would certainly make me think twice about whether I wanted to continue dating this guy. I'm no gold digger by any stretch, but damn. 

Leaving a random gift card and a coupon as a tip was amusing though. At least he tried. 

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1 hour ago, Gothish520 said:

Leaving a random gift card and a coupon as a tip was amusing though. At least he tried. 

Eh, he knew beforehand he was having financial problems, so I can't really give him the benefit of the doubt here. And Liza could/should have kicked in a few bucks for the tip. 

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20 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I don't get why everybody is hating on Charles. Is he supposed to be good with his employee lying on her resume? Or the fact that he and Liza really cared for each other to the point that it could have turned in to a love story only to find out she is a fraud? Because she is good at her job then nothing else should matter? Maybe his snarky little comments are immature but give the guy a second to get himself together and I'm sure he and Liza will eventually have a heart to heart talk once the hurt subsides a bit. She's lucky she still has a job. 

By the same token, Charles is in upper management but has made sexual advances towards what appears to be the person in the company with the lowest/most entry level position, so Charles is lucky that she hasn't sued the company for sexual harassment. Most companies have very clear written policies about that kind of power differential (even companies that allow interoffice dating usually specify that one person cannot be a supervisor of the other or have any kind of decision making role in the other person's duties). As the lawyer friend pointed out earlier in the season, Charles painted himself into a corner by kissing her. Whose wrong is bigger? I think Liza lying about herage wouldn't have been as much of an issue if Kelsey hadn't brought her onboard with Millennial. If Liza had just kept being Diana's assistant and reading books from the slush pile, pretending to be younger wouldn't really have had any impact on her job.

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I am already bored with this season. Charles is becoming unlikable and Josh is a waste of air time. I think they should rewrite the show with Diana, Maggie, and Lauren. They are the only highlight of the show. 

I am a glutton for punishment so I will continue to watch, but something needs to happen already.

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2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Eh, he knew beforehand he was having financial problems, so I can't really give him the benefit of the doubt here. And Liza could/should have kicked in a few bucks for the tip. 

She offered to pay and he refused. It's possible she didn't have cash on hand to give money towards a tip.

Edited by Gothish520

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After watching show for awhile, I cannot get over how poor at business Charles is.  Leave your drama at home Charles and conduct business at work. 

 

I like the last scene, it illustrates why Liza is attractive to men.  It's not her age, it's that she's accepting of their flaws.  As soon as Diana did the same, she found someone who seems great. 

Edited by dmc
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2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

By the same token, Charles is in upper management but has made sexual advances towards what appears to be the person in the company with the lowest/most entry level position, so Charles is lucky that she hasn't sued the company for sexual harassment.

And this has nothing to do with Liza's age, though Charles thinking she was in her twenties adds an extra slime factor.

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Most of my thoughts have already been posted by others, but one thing I wanted to add is that I thought Kelsey being drunk (at what seemed to be a work party) to the point that she needed to lay down for a nap on her boss's couch was unprofessional.  I'm no prude, I like to drink too, and there is nothing wrong with having some drinks at a work function, but I thought her announcing her drunkness and then laying on the couch was a little OTT.

On another note, I loved Lauren's "Actually, its OUR apartment" to Josh's dog-owner girl!  As others have said, Lauren, Diana, and Maggie are what keep me watching.

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Again I have to say I’m surprised that almost everyone thinks Charles is the definite end for Lisa. I feel like josh is still there as an option. Otherwise why are they keeping him around? And I’m sorry but there’s a reason the show keeps baiting and switching the Liza and Josh relationship.. they keep having moments. 

I still feel like it’s time to end this show though because the lie is up. I thought it was getting ridiculous when Kelsey’s ex fiancé got killed by the falling anvil after he told Liza he was going to tell everyone her secret bout now most everyone knows and I’m kind of not into it.

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I'm ready for Liza to write a book about her experiences - have Millennial print it - and let it all out. Then the show can just become the good stuff with all the cast - especially Maggie, Lauren, and Diana. I really want Diana to be brought into that fabulous group and they can all head back to that piano bar Diana loves!

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1 minute ago, slaterain said:

I'm ready for Liza to write a book about her experiences - have Millennial print it - and let it all out. Then the show can just become the good stuff with all the cast - especially Maggie, Lauren, and Diana. I really want Diana to be brought into that fabulous group and they can all head back to that piano bar Diana loves!

I have a feeling that is going to be the series end. 

i wish Liza and Josh were end game because that would be interesting, but his saying he wants kids isn’t going to go away.

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I wouldn't mind if Liza and Josh were end game - they have ruined the Charles character and all the build up that worked so well in the first two seasons has fizzled out. I just don't care about a Liza-Charles thing anymore. I just want them to hook up and get over it. Then she can go back to Josh for keeps. 

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20 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

i wish Liza and Josh were end game because that would be interesting, but his saying he wants kids isn’t going to go away.

 

20 hours ago, slaterain said:

I wouldn't mind if Liza and Josh were end game - they have ruined the Charles character and all the build up that worked so well in the first two seasons has fizzled out. I just don't care about a Liza-Charles thing anymore. I just want them to hook up and get over it. Then she can go back to Josh for keeps. 

This is the rare show that I wouldn't mind a quasi How I met Your Mother ending. Josh and Clare stay married, try to make a go of it, have a couple of kids, they ultimately separate and share custody of the kids. Meanwhile, Liza and Charles get together. She writes Younger. It's successful and optioned as a TV show. Liza goes on to more success,  but she's less connected to Empirical and Charles. Charles' passive aggressive bitchery comes back in full force. It is what breaks them up. Caitlin has graduated from college and now works for a nonprofit. Kelsey's shitty ex, Colin, has somehow hooked up with Amy/Montana. They are getting married and it's the big wedding. Everyone is invited. Josh and Liza flirt a little and it looks like they might reconnect. The end.

I'm not feeling Charles right now. His behavior isn't entirely out of character, but he's being a lot less adult and professional than he should be.

Edited by HunterHunted
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I didn't prefer Josh and Liza together, but that was back when Charles was more likable, and before the lack of kissing chemistry between Liza and Charles had overwhelmed me.  Now that Josh seems more mature than Charles, and given that there's never been any kissing chemistry problems with Liza and Josh, I guess I'm trying to convince myself to change my allegiance!

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5 hours ago, kelekins said:

I am already bored with this season. Charles is becoming unlikable and Josh is a waste of air time. I think they should rewrite the show with Diana, Maggie, and Lauren. They are the only highlight of the show. 

Didn't Darren Star already do that show, though? Sex and the Something?

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18 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I didn't prefer Josh and Liza together, but that was back when Charles was more likable, and before the lack of kissing chemistry between Liza and Charles had overwhelmed me.  Now that Josh seems more mature than Charles, and given that there's never been any kissing chemistry problems with Liza and Josh, I guess I'm trying to convince myself to change my allegiance!

Yeah.. they way Charles is acting now, and what his wife said about their marriage.. it’s sll making sense. He has the right to be mad at Liza for the lie, but.. to walk into a nesting and also mess up his other employees career because he’s mad.. real professional. Also I wish Liza hadn’t told him Kelsey knew, at this point Charles just wants to be a jerk so who knows what he will do. Kelsey acted sort of bratty when she heard the lie too but for the most part she kept it professional. (Except for the bonfire party thing).

Im surprised as well that they didn’t have Chelsea hang onto the lie lead for longer than an episode. I’m really shocked they didn’t carry it on for this season a little but nore. 

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23 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Kelsey acted sort of bratty when she heard the lie too but for the most part she kept it professional. (Except for the bonfire party thing).

Kelsey was acting pretty similar to Charles. It was bad enough that Diana noticed and I remember her specifically having to tell Liza that whatever the problem with Kelsey was, they better work it out.

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2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Kelsey was acting pretty similar to Charles. It was bad enough that Diana noticed and I remember her specifically having to tell Liza that whatever the problem with Kelsey was, they better work it out.

Even in that way, the result is not equivalent because there is no one of sufficient authority or seniority who could remind Charles to act like a professional and grown up like Diana did Kelsey. It had to be up to Liza to remind him what a fucking adult looked like so that he would stop acting like a brat and tanking his company. Luckily, Liza has womanned up enough over the course of the series and formed connections with her coworkers that she felt like she could tell him he was screwing up his company because was pissed and she was going to leave. What if she was still the chicken shit that she was earlier in the series? This impass could have lasted forever. Ugh.

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I think that Charles’s issue with Liza’s lie is that she is, in fact, a whole different person.  She hid the fact that she was married for many years, raised a daughter, went through bankruptcy. For me, finding out that someone lied to that extent would be a huge problem. Perhaps not in a business setting, but certainly in a personal setting.

Liza took care of his daughters, and pretended to be surprisingly good with kids, while in fact she had a lot of experience, having raised her teenage daughter.

all in all, I can really get where Charles is coming from. Still rooting for them to get together though...

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23 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

By the same token, Charles is in upper management but has made sexual advances towards what appears to be the person in the company with the lowest/most entry level position, so Charles is lucky that she hasn't sued the company for sexual harassment.

It was a mutual attraction. They both had feelings for each other. There was no sexual harassment involved. 

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