S02.E10: The Last Ceremony

[maggiegil]

Was anyone else waiting for some sort of fall out or retaliation for the letters? Maybe it will come in the next few episodes but I was expecting the Handmaids and Marthas who wrote the letters which contained very identifying details to be made an example of to all the rest and for June to have another attack of guilt.

[NoSpam]

5 hours ago, maggiegil said:

Was anyone else waiting for some sort of fall out or retaliation for the letters? Maybe it will come in the next few episodes but I was expecting the Handmaids and Marthas who wrote the letters which contained very identifying details to be made an example of to all the rest and for June to have another attack of guilt.

Just another dropped plot point. Along with Mayday, Mexico, and June telling Luke to 'save Hannah'.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, NoSpam said:

Just another dropped plot point. Along with Mayday, Mexico, and June telling Luke to 'save Hannah'.

...the bombing of the Red Center (which may or may not have been Mayday), Emily and Janine digging out radioactive waste in the Colonies, June not not getting any extra security or privileges revoked or even any harsh interrogation after being "kidnapped", mentions of Jezebel's, the ordinary lives of the econopeople, Commander Pryce's death (did that not cause ANY shakeup in the hierarchy?), and what I fear will be the sickness/neglect of Charangela (she was at death's door and extraordinarily revived in the same episode-praised be, storyline over). 

[AllyB]

20 hours ago, bijoux said:

There is a definite case of the characters serving the plot this season, but I would think that this episode proved that there is no redemption for Serena. Yes, she has traces of humanity and those are fascinating to observe, but in the end she will always be self-serving and petty, and doesn't care if she hurts other to get what she wants, in fact, she relishes it. I actually liked the writers going for it in this episode. As much as one can like inflicting torture on characters. More precisely, I appreciate that they're not shying away from Serena's malice.

I think Serena is irredeemable to me personally (and to most people). And I would love if this episode was build up for Fred ending up on the wall with Serena joining him or being sent to Jezebels/the colonies. But we already have the writer of the episode talking of Fred and Serena's guilt at what they did to June. So if Serena lasts beyond this season as Mrs Waterford, privileged Wife, there will be episodes that move her back towards redemption and other that show her doing horrific things. Whatever the writers decide creates the most drama in any given episode.

What we are seeing isn't even plot driven as opposed to character driven. There is no overarching plot, it's all being made up as it goes along and not enough care is being taken to ensure it makes sense. This is scene driven writing. The writers come up with cool scenes they want to show and manipulate the plot to go from one (often great) scene to the next. But the sequences of events leading from the scenes just don't make sense.

[Ely]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

What we are seeing isn't even plot driven as opposed to character driven. There is no overarching plot, it's all being made up as it goes along and not enough care is being taken to ensure it makes sense. This is scene driven writing. The writers come up with cool scenes they want to show and manipulate the plot to go from one (often great) scene to the next. But the sequences of events leading from the scenes just don't make sense.

This is so well put. Now, we all know the Commander and SJ are asssholes, but they're also very devoted to Gilead. There is no way they would rape a pregant women - let alone a women with high risk pregnancy.  Their egos were hurt by June and they decided to "show her". I believe that s1-Commander and SJ never would have done this.  This was a horrific scene but I I feel it was more done for shock value than anything else.

Also, I caught myself wondering why again SJ and June are back at being enemies. It's such a back and forth, my brain cannot keep up. Someone upthread mentioned though how sickened SJ seemed by the raping so maybe it's not all so black and white.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ely

[Ashforth]

On 6/22/2018 at 7:37 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

For me, it seems that the way they presented Hannah back at the beginning of the series vs now, despite the actress being the same, was, in fact, very successful. Maybe it was the camera angles used - although they didn't know for certain that the show would be picked up for another season when initially casting - but my mind more or less interpreted Hannah as being maybe five years old, and she appeared to be about three or four years older to me in this week's episode

Without going back to the pilot to watch again, my recollection is that Hannah looked about 2-3 years old when June was captured. In later flashbacks, I thought Hannah looked older and bigger at that time. Maybe it was a way to introduce the young actress who plays her? Or maybe my memory is faulty (it wouldn't be the first time). 

In regard to the writer's reason for Fred arranging June's meeting with Hannah, the writer said:

"Chang said the commander felt so guilty (“at the very end of the ceremony . . . it dawns on him what he did, and he feels terrible”) that he arranged the meeting." https://www.thelily.com/the-handmaids-tale-writer-responds-to-brutal-scene-in-latest-episode/

I was dumbfounded by this explanation. I thought Fred's arrangement of the meeting was classic abuser: do something violent and then make nice to obtain forgiveness, i.e. acceptance that the violence was okay. A/K/A the honeymoon period after the violence.

I don't like to go behind the scenes. I prefer to stay with what I see on the screen. But this explanation by the writer left me cold.

As for Eden, I don't think she's a villain, but she is nonetheless dangerous to June and Nick. 

Since Eden clearly violated the rules of Gilead by kissing Isaac, it made me wonder about something I don't think we've seen. Who decides the punishments? If Nick were to report her infidelity, to whom would he report it?  Who would decide whether she is sentenced to become a Handmaid, or go to the Colonies, or have her lips cut off? Is it the Commander of the home in which she lives? Is there a tribunal? Does Aunt Lydia decide? 

So many loose ends. I can suspend disbelief for the sake of the story but come on, y'all.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ashforth

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Ashforth said:

I don't like to go behind the scenes. I prefer to stay with what I see on the screen. But this explanation by the writer left me cold.

I don't typically go behind the scenes either. If what we take away it is different than what they intend - then it's on them, because they didn't write/act in a way to portray what they intended. So I'd rather discuss our varying interpretations here, because it's always so interesting to me, and illuminating, to see how differently we react to what we see and interpret motives. Which doesn't mean I am against others discussing what the writers/showrunners say - I just don't go elsewhere to find out (most of the time).

[lucindabelle]

I guess I’m  unusual , because the show ru Writer’s explanation rang  true to me. I also felt Fred was trying in his way to make amends, yes it turned out to be torture, but he was giving her what she had literally just asked him for, and doing a little better

 

I do think both Sabrina and Fred felt ashamed after that rape.

 

I’m disappointed that Serena took such a huge step backwards and I don’t know if I can accept redemption arc anymore.  I agree with those who said that what she saw in Canada shook her and that she’s overcompensating todouble down on the life that she stuck in. That does mean that at some point she may have had enough of it, but we’re a long way away. The series has a long run but I feel disappointed.

 

i feel sorry for Eden who just wants a little attention and decency. Nick is being cruel. 

 

And the reunion was exactly right. Small children blame parents for abandoning them even if they know it wasn’t by choice. Heck we had a cat who used to new us out when it rained and ask us to turn it off so she could go out.

 

and her first “mommy” broke my heat and I’m glad they got a long hug.

[Brn2bwild]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I’m disappointed that Serena took such a huge step backwards and I don’t know if I can accept redemption arc anymore.  I agree with those who said that what she saw in Canada shook her and that she’s overcompensating todouble down on the life that she stuck in. That does mean that at some point she may have had enough of it, but we’re a long way away. The series has a long run but I feel disappointed.

 

i feel sorry for Eden who just wants a little attention and decency. Nick is being cruel. 

Looking back, I'm not sure Serena had much opportunity to consider/choose to flee.  She received the offer one evening.  Then overnight, the letters were posted online, and the next day, she learns that she and Fred are no longer welcome in Canada and are quickly rushed to the car.  Who knows if given even a few more hours, she might have made the decision to flee? 

Re Eden: did anyone else hate the way her crying scene was framed toward the end?  She is out of focus in the forefront while the camera focuses on Nick's blase reaction in the background.  It feels like it's inviting us to view the situation through Nick's eyes, and even to find Eden's crying funny (haha, she's just realized she's condemned to a lifetime of misery, just like Serena).

Edited June 24, 2018 by Brn2bwild

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Looking back, I'm not sure Serena had much opportunity to consider/choose to flee.  She received the offer one evening.  Then overnight, the letters were posted online, and the next day, she learns that she and Fred are no longer welcome in Canada and are quickly rushed to the car.  Who knows if given even a few more hours, she might have made the decision to flee? 

Well, that and a firm offer of immunity.

If June wasn't finally pregnant and "her" baby on the way?  I think with a few more days she may have.

[mamadrama]

11 hours ago, AllyB said:

I think Serena is irredeemable to me personally (and to most people). And I would love if this episode was build up for Fred ending up on the wall with Serena joining him or being sent to Jezebels/the colonies. But we already have the writer of the episode talking of Fred and Serena's guilt at what they did to June. So if Serena lasts beyond this season as Mrs Waterford, privileged Wife, there will be episodes that move her back towards redemption and other that show her doing horrific things. Whatever the writers decide creates the most drama in any given episode.

What we are seeing isn't even plot driven as opposed to character driven. There is no overarching plot, it's all being made up as it goes along and not enough care is being taken to ensure it makes sense. This is scene driven writing. The writers come up with cool scenes they want to show and manipulate the plot to go from one (often great) scene to the next. But the sequences of events leading from the scenes just don't make sense.

And considering how the show people (writer, producer, actors, etc.) have spoken in interviews about the latest rape scene, I am not convinced that we'll even see any fallout from it. It seems that the scene they had in their heads is not necessarily the scene that we, as an audience, saw. There seems to be a big failure of communication.

[LittleRed84]

6 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I guess I’m  unusual , because the show ru Writer’s explanation rang  true to me. I also felt Fred was trying in his way to make amends, yes it turned out to be torture, but he was giving her what she had literally just asked him for, and doing a little better

I’m with you. Gilead is not a nice place. I’m going to assume that this episode and all its parts are important to the overall storyline and events. Maybe the show isn’t for everyone. But if this is the way the story goes, then this is how it goes. Remember, Margaret Atwood is involved in the show still in season 2.

“Atwood, 78, serves as a consulting producer on the series” https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/2018/05/11/handmaids-tale-season-2-how-margaret-atwood-and-bruce-miller-agreed-disagree-901162.html%3famp=1

Edited June 24, 2018 by LittleRed84

[Ragingviolet]

On 6/20/2018 at 10:38 AM, Joana said:

 

I was totally unspoiled going into this episode, so this was felt like a true punch in the gut. The episode title and all that talk about speeding up the childbirth process (damn that "Friends" episode!) hinted towards the rape scene very clearly, but it didn't make it any easier to watch and stomach. And as for her meeting with Hannah, it was heartbreaking to watch, but their conversation (or rather the things Hannah was saying) felt a little... artificial. How much would she even remember of June after all this time. Also, "Why didn't you try harder to find me" doesn't seem (to me, at least), like something a child of that age would say. Unless she was instructed or manipulated to do so, which is of course a real possibility.

 

This position I can support...kids of this age do ask why you didn't fight harder....source: my own custody battle.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ragingviolet

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

10 hours ago, Ely said:

This is so well put. Now, we all know the Commander and SJ are asssholes, but they're also very devoted to Gilead. There is no way they would rape a pregant women - let alone a women with high risk pregnancy.  Their egos were hurt by June and they decided to "show her". I believe that s1-Commander and SJ never would have done this.  This was a horrific scene but I I feel it was more done for shock value than anything else.

Also, I caught myself wondering why again SJ and June are back at being enemies. It's such a back and forth, my brain cannot keep up. Someone upthread mentioned though how sickened SJ seemed by the raping so maybe it's not all so black and white.

They were always enemies.  A few weeks of the absence of abuse didn't make them not enemies 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Ragingviolet said:

This position I can support...kids of this age do ask why you didn't fight harder....source: my own custody battle.

The "behind the scenes" featurette of this episode had the show people saying that they went to the UN and took things, sometimes word-for-word, from child reunification cases. The dialouge was written from their research. I used to be a crisis intervention specialist who worked reunification and I heard this from young children regularly-"why aren't you trying harder to find me/get me back." In my experience, young children don't understand all the legalese and gray matter-they simply think that their parents aren't trying to get them back or that they don't care. It's sad. 

[marinw]

So I finally say the episode. Gah. THT is rapier than Game Of Thrones. Fred kissing June was one of the grossest things I’ve ever seen.

Like others here, I was expected a pre-teen Hannah. How much time passed between the filming of the first and second seasons? Usually with child actors you have the opposite problems-they grow too fast and have to play younger. 

Random question: What was June looking at in the cold case near the start of episode? It looks like  goat’s head’s.

So a Commander’s wife got pregnant! 

Spoiler

It was mentioned in the book that this sometimes happened.

Edited June 25, 2018 by marinw

[Brn2bwild]

29 minutes ago, marinw said:

So a Commander’s wife got pregnant! 

  Reveal hidden contents

It was mentioned in the book that this sometimes happened.

 

Which makes you wonder how, since Commanders technically are not allowed to have non-procreational sex with their wives.  Is the idea he was a guardian with an econowife promoted to Commander?  Does that mean all econohusbands could potentially be Commanders?

Edited June 25, 2018 by Brn2bwild

[Ashforth]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

They were always enemies.  A few weeks of the absence of abuse didn't make them not enemies 

Serena Joy and June became allies while Fred was hospitalized after the bombing. They broke Gilead's rules together. Their bond was broken when Fred beat Serena in front of June and Serena was too humiliated to continue the fledgling relationship.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

8 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Serena Joy and June became allies while Fred was hospitalized after the bombing. They broke Gilead's rules together. Their bond was broken when Fred beat Serena in front of June and Serena was too humiliated to continue the fledgling relationship.

They weren't. June is pregnant through rape by Serena who is also bidding her time to take away her child the minute it is born. That was their current situation. Sitting in the same room whilst Serena orders June to make edits to documents is not working together. It is working for 

There can't be allies under these circumstances. Any appearance of amicable is an illusion. I personally don't believe the writers misled viewers in that regard. For them to to so, they would have to undo what can't be undone. They don't expect viewers to forget June's current situation and conclude she's connecting with Serena. 

Even if Serena, during that time, had agreed that June should keep her baby, being her captive, the period rape and tearing her away from her family can't be undone. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Which makes you wonder how, since Commanders technically are not allowed to have non-procreational sex with their wives.  Is the idea he was a guardian with an econowife promoted to Commander?  Does that mean all econohusbands could potentially be Commanders?

Well, obviously the sex WAS pro-creational, since you know, the wife is pregnant.

No, no more than "all blue collar workers will be senators and generals" in our world.  Apparently, show cannon at least, SOME econohusbands can be, probably from the Guardian Class, or perhaps the soldier class if they are distinguished and have risen through the ranks.

[Brn2bwild]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, obviously the sex WAS pro-creational, since you know, the wife is pregnant.

No, no more than "all blue collar workers will be senators and generals" in our world.  Apparently, show cannon at least, SOME econohusbands can be, probably from the Guardian Class, or perhaps the soldier class if they are distinguished and have risen through the ranks.

My guess is he was a former guardian who got promoted and therefore did not have a handmaid.  If that's the most critical factor, it seems like any econohusband with children could be promoted to Commander class.  Interesting, too, the the exchange tacitly acknowledged that it was the husbands who had/did not have the ability to get a wife pregnant, since the official line is that childlessness is the wife's fault.

[Ashforth]

8 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

They weren't. June is pregnant through rape by Serena who is also bidding her time to take away her child the minute it is born.

Serena didn't make the proclamation that June had to leave the house immediately after giving birth until after Fred beat her with June watching. June tried to connect right after the beating, but Serena was too humiliated and told her to go away. So I maintain that they had a connection, however brief, as women of intelligence and potential power.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

B

8 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Serena didn't make the proclamation that June had to leave the house immediately after giving birth until after Fred beat her with June watching. June tried to connect right after the beating, but Serena was too humiliated and told her to go away. So I maintain that they had a connection, however brief, as women of intelligence and potential power.

She still had every intention of taking away the child. She doesn’t get credit for doing it at a later date 

Your last sentence gives an illusion of equity. There is none and it is June’s grave mistake to think there was ever common ground between them, as was shown in this episode. Neither June nor viewers should ever forget reality. As long as June is held in their home and raped, there could be no such connection. I don’t understand why this is in doubt.

 

Does it take so little after so much harm for a victim such as June to form an alliance with her abuser? Someone as cruel as Serena? She orders her to perform another task that isn’t accomplished on her back so that is progress, I suppose.  What if she bathes June after a rape. Would that be friendship in the making? Where are the standards, if they are any.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Emily Thrace]

On 2018-06-22 at 12:57 AM, Lemons said:

I didn’t know that.  They didn’t need to spring it on her like that.  After all they did that gross ceremony every month.  Why couldn’t they just tell her that they were going to use his semen to induce labor?   And why would he allow her to go in a car hours away in the snow after they “induced” labor?  Made no sense at all.  

Because it wasn't actually about starting labor. June made Waterford feel small by pointing out his infertility so he decided to remind her of his power. The induce labor part was just a line to get Serena to go along with the plan.

[Ashforth]

35 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Does it take so little after so much harm for victim to form an alliance with her abuser?

Yes, it's called Stockholm Syndrome.

24 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

The induce labor part was just a line to get Serena to go along with the plan.

Serena was the one who told Fred that raping June would induce labor.

[lynny]

I’ll start by saying that it was a nice nod to the books that it was a black commander that got his wife pregnant, which sort of showed that infertility was more of a white male problem than a male problem. 

When I first watched, I thought that Eden saw Nick and knew he would see her kissing Isaac. I’m not sure now but originally I thought the flashes of Nick flicking the lighter and Eden looking out the window - I thought she was looking at Nick knowing he’d step outside and see it. 

But, I don’t see Eden as a villain. I think she’s a child raised with the belief that a fake wedding ceremony means that a man will love and cherish her as long as they both shall live. Nick could do a lot for himself by simply being kind to her. I was annoyed that he didn’t take the opportunity to tell her that he would come to love her in time - even if it’s not true. 

Until I read the interview with the writer, I thought that for sure Fred had set up a sting. It made sense. He’s been told he’s not the father. His handmaiden has disappeared before. He can say Nick aided her escape attempt, get him executed and get her chained to a bed until the baby comes and then get her executed. Without telling anyone that the baby isn’t his. 

Now, it seems that isn’t the case that Fred set up capture. The next episode is going to have a lot of explaining to do. 

I still hate that we get this 4 days later in Canada. It’s annoying to be late to a conversation. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by lynny

[Lily H]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:11 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

When you were 15 were you attracted to 30 year olds?

I definitely was. I had very little interest in high school boys.

 

It's interesting reading everyone's different take on the last scene. I was, and still am, 100% convinced that it was all a setup by Fred to solve several problems at once: Show Serena who's boss by taking away the one thing she desires above all else, show June that he is in complete control over her and every aspect of her life, and get rid of Nick, who he is both jealous and suspicious of. It was stupid of June to rub his nose in the fact that he's not the baby's father. There's just no way he suddenly had a change of heart about letting her see her daughter.

[bijoux]

I think it would be dumb as hell if Fred did it. His former handmaid killed herself, June was already 'kidnapped' once, and the Canada thing went down the toilet. And now there's young guys getting their wives pregnant. 'Losing' June again right before she gives birth would be another on his long list of messes. 

Of course, this is Fred and he's not the sharpest tool in Gilead, so I'm not discounting it completely. 

[marinw]

7 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

7 hours ago, marinw said:

So a Commander’s wife got pregnant! 

  Hide contents

It was mentioned in the book that this sometimes happened.

 

Which makes you wonder how, since Commanders technically are not allowed to have non-procreational sex with their wives.  Is the idea he was a guardian with an econowife promoted to Commander?  Does that mean all econohusbands could potentially be Commanders?

Edited 7 hours ago by Brn2bwild.

The Commanders are making up the rules as they go. They can easily find a way to hand-wave away sex between a husband and wife. Isn’t that the type of sex that is okay in all religions?

[Becks]

On 6/23/2018 at 6:12 AM, WearyTraveler said:

Both, SJ and Fred wanted to punish June.  SJ wanted to punish her for her obvious delight at the false labor, Fred wanted to punish her for her insinuation that he might not have as much power as he thought he did and for throwing in his face that the baby is not his.

 

But they both need a "valid" reason for their actions, so, they sit there and come up with a "valid" reason for the punishment.  They are justifying it a priori, and rationalizing their behavior because they don't want to admit to themselves that they are monsters.

PREACH.

 

On 6/23/2018 at 6:30 AM, Scarlett45 said:

P.s. I also don’t think Nick is 30 in the show, more like mid 20s. He was a young guy with no purpose when Gilead rose to power 5 or so years ago, I could see him at 25 in show to Eden’s 15 (just as the actors are actually only about a decade a part in real life). 

In the script for the pilot, Nick's age is given as 26. Not sure how much time has passed between the first episode and this one, but I would guess he is probably at least 27 now, with 30 still a few years away.

 

20 hours ago, AllyB said:

There is no overarching plot, it's all being made up as it goes along and not enough care is being taken to ensure it makes sense. This is scene driven writing. The writers come up with cool scenes they want to show and manipulate the plot to go from one (often great) scene to the next. But the sequences of events leading from the scenes just don't make sense.

I very much think you're onto something here. Many of those scenes are so well-executed, it's easy and perfectly understandable that it can take a while for it to click that things are not hanging together. But it's becoming undeniable now that a number of the things we thought were really going to matter are probably going to prove to be just scenes - meant, apparently, for short-term effect and not long-term plotting.

 

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't typically go behind the scenes either. If what we take away it is different than what they intend - then it's on them, because they didn't write/act in a way to portray what they intended. So I'd rather discuss our varying interpretations here, because it's always so interesting to me, and illuminating, to see how differently we react to what we see and interpret motives. Which doesn't mean I am against others discussing what the writers/showrunners say - I just don't go elsewhere to find out (most of the time).

I'm with you - I rarely pay attention to the behind the scenes stuff, because in the end, the show has to stand on its own and convey its intentions through the screen, without the writers talking us through it, though I do understand why people enjoy mulling all that information over. There will always be varying interpretations of any episode by viewers, and that's part of the fun of engaging in discussion with others who watch. But when there's such a divide between the writers' intentions and the way an episode is taken by a significant number of those watching, as seems to be the case with this one, then the writers have to examine why their intentions weren't conveyed as effectively as they'd believed. As you say - it's on them.

[marinw]

Nick would have been fine with Eden having an affair with Isaac. Relived even. If she got pregnant, so much the better.

[GreekGeek]

4 hours ago, lynny said:

I’ll start by saying that it was a nice nod to the books that it was a black commander that got his wife pregnant, which sort of showed that infertility was more of a white male problem than a male problem. 

Except that in the book, there would have been no black commander. The "Children of Ham" were deported to do farm work, IIRC. I can understand the desire not to include that aspect of the book in order to have a more diverse cast. But I did wonder whether there was a bit of a racial stereotype with Horace, the one about Black men being more sexual.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

7 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Yes, it's called Stockholm Syndrome.

Yes, which would apply to only June .....

[Joana]

8 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Which makes you wonder how, since Commanders technically are not allowed to have non-procreational sex with their wives.  

Yes, but that's because (most of) their wives are thought to be infertile. Fred also said to the new commander "So, no handmaid for you then", which would imply that since his wife has "proven" that she is fertile, they would be still allowed to have sex, withing the scope of what Gilead finds acceptable, of course. 

Like I said a bunch of times before, I wish they would show us current commanders and their wives who have children of their own. It's simply logically impossible that there aren't any. 

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, lynny said:

When I first watched, I thought that Eden saw Nick and knew he would see her kissing Isaac. I’m not sure now but originally I thought the flashes of Nick flicking the lighter and Eden looking out the window - I thought she was looking at Nick knowing he’d step outside and see it. 

But, I don’t see Eden as a villain. I think she’s a child raised with the belief that a fake wedding ceremony means that a man will love and cherish her as long as they both shall live. Nick could do a lot for himself by simply being kind to her. I was annoyed that he didn’t take the opportunity to tell her that he would come to love her in time - even if it’s not true. 

I really don't understand Eden. On the one hand she is a true believer of Gilead.  On the other hand she comments about how her dad takes out the trash, kisses her mother, etc.  If you are a true believer, the male shouldn't be assisting the female with the household chores or showing affection to the wife.

You can't have it both ways girl.

[SourK]

Well, I was a wreck in the scene where June's reunited with her daughter, even though I knew it was going to happen. Mostly because I think this is the first time I fully understood what it means to not only have your kid stolen from you, but to know that she's being raised in this horrible environment. Earlier this season, I was very much on team "save yourself, come back for Hannah later" but now I think I just feel in a much more visceral way how awful that would be to live with.

On 6/20/2018 at 6:28 PM, Helena Dax said:

Of course, but they weren't having sex. In addition to the psychological horrors of being raped, which cannot be good for the baby, she could have been physically injured. Also, she almost bled to death some months ago. That's why I think the Waterfords could be in trouble if they were reported. Having sex with your Handmaid when it isn't for reproductive motives is illegal, as Putnam found out.

Yeah, I also found it very suspect, especially since this was NOT on the list of natural methods Aunt Lydia suggested, and because it won't result in anybody getting pregnant.

On 6/20/2018 at 10:01 PM, NoSpam said:

I don't need to see her screaming on the bed to know that The Ceremony is rape and every time it's  every bit as rapey as having another woman hold her down. But no, that's not rapey enough for the men watching/producing the show... They need a "hold her down screaming"rape to make the point that the sex is against June's will.

I'm sure there are men watching the show who get what's going on without needing that scene, but I'm with you. I read the interviews where the writer was explaining that they wanted to show that the ceremony is rape, no matter how quiet it usually is. I already knew that, and I find it weird that they're behaving as if it's not clear.

On 6/20/2018 at 10:59 PM, nodorothyparker said:

The wives' faux birthing continues to be ridiculous because it is ridiculous.  Funny though how quickly Serena went from eye rolling at Janine's birth to going right along with it when it was her turn. 

See, this part I think I actually get. Serena wants desperately to be a mother -- and to do it through having biological children. But, for whatever reason, that's not a gift that was given to her. So, she's living out this morbid fantasy of having all of the experiences of childbirth, which is as close as she can ever come to her dream. In her mind, June would ideally accept that she's been "blessed" with the ability to bear children and want, joyously and wholeheartedly, to share that blessing with Serena, who's been unfairly denied the same opportunity. That's why she's so offended that June's "selfish" and "working an angle" all the time. I genuinely think this birthing ceremony stuff is really sad for everyone involved, even if I think the way the handmaids are treated is way, way worse.

On 6/21/2018 at 12:40 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Eden at best has what are probably hazy childhood memories of the world as it used to be and has spent her most formative years under this system, so she should have been a great illustration of that.  We're getting a bit of cognitive dissonance from her in that her arranged marriage hasn't given her immediate love and bliss and she's clearly seeing that the handmaid system isn't this unselfish nurturing partnership that produces children, but it could have been so much more.

I think Eden would have been old enough that she would be aware that there was a massive, violent upheaval in the culture and suddenly things were different. She would have known that she was never raised with the idea that she'd be married off to some random dude in a state lottery. She might accept it now -- but, I don't know. This whole thread has me wondering WTF you would say, as a parent, to your fourteen or fifteen-year-old daughter when you have to send her out into the world that way, and it's not the way any of you lived a few years before.

In general, that's an ongoing issue for me with this show: I think the writers try to have it both ways by acting like June and the other handmaids are foreigners and everybody else grew up in this culture somehow. They didn't.

On 6/21/2018 at 9:26 PM, ferjy said:

That's how I took it. I didn't think there was any scheme of punishment of their parts. Serena just wanted the baby to be born so she could get rid of June. I thought that was why Serena was crying, she didn't think it was going to be such a violent episode. Though I did think Fred just wanted one more screw with June so would have agreed to anything that would provide it for him.

So, a long time ago, I remember seeing a news piece about a home invasion where the purpetrator's lawyers were trying to claim that he was delusional and thought the person who lived there wanted to be with him. There was a police officer being interviewed who was like, "No. He showed up with duct tape and weapons. You don't do that if you think the other person wants you there. You do it if you're anticipating resistance."

That really stayed with me, and there's a lot about the way this scene went down that tells me  that, even if Serena didn't necessarily anticipate resistance, she anticipated that this wasn't welcome. If she thought it was no big deal, the entire tone of that interaction would have been different, and she wouldn't have been trying to close her hand around June's wrist before Fred even approached them.

Now, whether that's what was intended, or that's just how it came across because everyone involved in making the show knows it's not welcome, I don't know.

10 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Serena Joy and June became allies while Fred was hospitalized after the bombing. They broke Gilead's rules together. Their bond was broken when Fred beat Serena in front of June and Serena was too humiliated to continue the fledgling relationship.

One of the things I'm really interested in on this show is the triangulation between Jean and the Waterfords. It's three people with different degrees of power who don't like each other, but fluidly drift into two-person alliances when they see a chance to do something against the odd one out. In the scene in the greenhouse, you could almost see Serena's antennae pop up when she realized Fred was talking to her like it was them against June again.

I'm also interested in the trauma bonding between Serena and June / Aunt Lydia and June. They've been through so much together, that's so emotionally intense and dramatic, that they have some kind of bond -- but it's a really, really messed-up one. And, in both cases, it's complicated because it's easy to confuse love for the baby June's carrying with love for June.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 6/23/2018 at 10:58 PM, NoSpam said:

Just another dropped plot point. Along with Mayday, Mexico, and June telling Luke to 'save Hannah'.

Nah...I'm pretty sure that note read "Ask about Hannah as an afterthought once you've shooed off your only connection to your wife in Gilead". Right? 

[Joana]

39 minutes ago, SourK said:

I think Eden would have been old enough that she would be aware that there was a massive, violent upheaval in the culture and suddenly things were different. She would have known that she was never raised with the idea that she'd be married off to some random dude in a state lottery. She might accept it now -- but, I don't know. This whole thread has me wondering WTF you would say, as a parent, to your fourteen or fifteen-year-old daughter when you have to send her out into the world that way, and it's not the way any of you lived a few years before.

 

I don't think she grew up in an average American household and had an average American childhood of watching Disney movies and Hannah Montana and what not.

We know that Gilead has been in power for a few years now. But it didn't come into existence overnight. The Sons of Jacob movement and their idelogy must have long preceded it, picking up steam and gaining followers in years, if not decades before the government was overthrown. A number of people must have embraced their beliefs even before they took over, and I guess Eden's parents were among them. After all, it would make sense to choose the future wives for guardians from the families of tried and true loyalists to the regime. So, while Eden technically hasn't lived in Gilead all of her life, it's completely possible that her childhood was very sheltered and the ideals of Gilead are all she's ever known.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Joana

[Normades]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

That really stayed with me, and there's a lot about the way this scene went down that tells me  that, even if Serena didn't necessarily anticipate resistance, she anticipated that this wasn't welcome. If she thought it was no big deal, the entire tone of that interaction would have been different, and she wouldn't have been trying to close her hand around June's wrist before Fred even approached them.

I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems I'm in the minority because I think that showing the resistance was important.  As stated above, Serena probably didn't expect it.  Why would she?  June hasn't resisted previously.  We all know with or without resistance rape is brutal, but I think the lack of resistance, along with their little ceremony, has somewhat normalized brutality and I think that can even happen for the viewer.  I think the Commander reciting bible verses while he rapes a woman is also his way of telling himself, "this is right. This is what god wants."  It makes them both feel better about victimizing June.  Her resistance really drove home how vile their actions are for the Commander, Serena, and the viewer. 

 

1 hour ago, Joana said:

We know that Gilead has been in power for a few years now. But it didn't come into existence overnight. The Sons of Jacob movement and their idelogy must have long preceded it, picking up steam and gaining followers in years, if not decades before the government was overthrown. A number of people must have embraced their beliefs even before they took over, and I guess Eden's parents were among them. After all, it would make sense to choose the future wives for guardians from the families of tried and true loyalists to the regime. So, while Eden technically hasn't lived in Gilead all of her life, it's completely possible that her childhood was very sheltered and the ideals of Gilead are all she's ever known.

I absolutely agree with this.  Think of some fundamentalist religious sects who isolate and home school their children.  I can see Eden growing up like that.  Maybe her father was kind to her mother (and that's probably because they were first generation to the cult and actually fell in love), but Eden could be so isolated that she has no point of reference for how real love and attraction works.  (There are some famous families where we can see the effects of this isolation on the second generations.)  She's a young girl, full of hormones, and is utterly lost.  I can buy her kissing the other guardian because she is starving for affection and her hormones took over.  When she was sobbing, she broke my heart.  I felt her loneliness and abandonment.  She can't even reach out to her mother for comfort.  I understand why Nick acts the way he does, but he could have offered her some comfort.  They are both locked into a horrible situation. 

[JasonCC]

Signing on that even if the bombings of Congress happened 5 years ago, the weird religious fundamentalists would have had many followers before hand and the Sons of Jacob would have been gaining converts slowly and steadily. We saw that in Season 1 with Nick's flashback (they were essentially recruiting among young, disaffected men) and wasn't there a creepy nurse at Hannah's birth who was spouting Gilead crap? Remember Hannah was like 5 or 6 when the bombings happened and June and Luke were making jokes about the signing approval for birth control at Walgreen's. So I think it's plausible that Eden at 15 could have had a more or less Gilead upbringing and worldview, even if she technically was born/raised in the "before" time. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by JasonCC

[maxineofarc]

I'm puzzled over where the idea that (everyday, non-elite) men shouldn't be participating in the household chores or showing affection to their wives is coming from. I think the Bible generally describes marriage as a partnership and although generally the house is a woman's domain and men and women have different roles, I don't think a Biblical society would disapprove of some crossover between the "spheres" or of any hint of romance; a household should ideally be harmonious and that begins with the marital relationship. But I haven't watched every episode, so is there something I've missed that suggests Gilead subscribes to a colder reading on marital relationships as a whole?

[dmc]

On 6/24/2018 at 10:01 AM, Ashforth said:

Without going back to the pilot to watch again, my recollection is that Hannah looked about 2-3 years old when June was captured. In later flashbacks, I thought Hannah looked older and bigger at that time. Maybe it was a way to introduce the young actress who plays her? Or maybe my memory is faulty (it wouldn't be the first time). 

In regard to the writer's reason for Fred arranging June's meeting with Hannah, the writer said:

"Chang said the commander felt so guilty (“at the very end of the ceremony . . . it dawns on him what he did, and he feels terrible”) that he arranged the meeting." https://www.thelily.com/the-handmaids-tale-writer-responds-to-brutal-scene-in-latest-episode/

I was dumbfounded by this explanation. I thought Fred's arrangement of the meeting was classic abuser: do something violent and then make nice to obtain forgiveness, i.e. acceptance that the violence was okay. A/K/A the honeymoon period after the violence.

I don't like to go behind the scenes. I prefer to stay with what I see on the screen. But this explanation by the writer left me cold.

As for Eden, I don't think she's a villain, but she is nonetheless dangerous to June and Nick. 

Since Eden clearly violated the rules of Gilead by kissing Isaac, it made me wonder about something I don't think we've seen. Who decides the punishments? If Nick were to report her infidelity, to whom would he report it?  Who would decide whether she is sentenced to become a Handmaid, or go to the Colonies, or have her lips cut off? Is it the Commander of the home in which she lives? Is there a tribunal? Does Aunt Lydia decide? 

So many loose ends. I can suspend disbelief for the sake of the story but come on, y'all.

 

Writers feel the need to humanize characters.  A writer is never going to come and call a character they created just evil.  I remember when Seven Years a Slave came out a writer swore that the slave owner loved the woman he raped and tormented.  Fred probably doesn't see himself as abuser and the writer is giving you that perspective not the one of the victim 

Edited June 25, 2018 by dmc

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems I'm in the minority because I think that showing the resistance was important.  As stated above, Serena probably didn't expect it.  Why would she?  June hasn't resisted previously.  We all know with or without resistance rape is brutal, but I think the lack of resistance, along with their little ceremony, has somewhat normalized brutality and I think that can even happen for the viewer.  I think the Commander reciting bible verses while he rapes a woman is also his way of telling himself, "this is right. This is what god wants."  It makes them both feel better about victimizing June.  Her resistance really drove home how vile their actions are for the Commander, Serena, and the viewer. 

 

I had an entirely different take on the reciting of the bible verses.  I took it as Fred saying, "look, I can do whatever I want to you because I can find cover for it in the bible."  More flaunting his power over her with the implication that he will never be held responsible for it under Gilead's laws, knowing those laws are BS (and his professed piety is also BS).   I think if it made Serena feel better that was just a side product of it, not the main intent. 

[Normades]

1 minute ago, chaifan said:

I had an entirely different take on the reciting of the bible verses.  I took it as Fred saying, "look, I can do whatever I want to you because I can find cover for it in the bible."  More flaunting his power over her with the implication that he will never be held responsible for it under Gilead's laws, knowing those laws are BS (and his professed piety is also BS).   I think if it made Serena feel better that was just a side product of it, not the main intent. 

I think that's true, too.  I believe it's a little of both in this situation.  He's using their religion to make himself powerful, but when he sees the tortuous results of what he is doing, it helps him feel justification for his actions.  I don't think he's pious at all either.  He's happily using the religion to make himself more powerful, and justifying it all the way.

[Joana]

58 minutes ago, maxineofarc said:

I'm puzzled over where the idea that (everyday, non-elite) men shouldn't be participating in the household chores or showing affection to their wives is coming from. I think the Bible generally describes marriage as a partnership and although generally the house is a woman's domain and men and women have different roles, I don't think a Biblical society would disapprove of some crossover between the "spheres" or of any hint of romance; a household should ideally be harmonious and that begins with the marital relationship. But I haven't watched every episode, so is there something I've missed that suggests Gilead subscribes to a colder reading on marital relationships as a whole?

I absolutely agree. As horrible as this particular religious doctrine is, I don't think it actually requires a husband to treat his wife like garbage. I mean, it would certainly make it very easy to do so and let him get away with it, but if a man wanted to help around the house or hold his wife's hand or tell her nice things, I don't think he'd forbidden from doing so. 

I think this is another problem coming from not seeing enough the world of Gilead outside the Waterford household. Fred and Serena obviously have a very strained relationship, but 1) they belong to another class, with an additional set of extra strict values to adhere to (on the surface, anyway), 2) she's deemed "barren", so they're not allowed to have any sexual relations, which is obviously going to take its toll on a relationship and 3) there are number of other things, mostly unfulfilled expectations and difference in status compared to the pre-Gilead days that have caused frustration and resentment between them. So, I really don't think we should look at them as a model for every single marriage in Gilead's society. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Joana

[deSchenke]

2 hours ago, maxineofarc said:

I'm puzzled over where the idea that (everyday, non-elite) men shouldn't be participating in the household chores or showing affection to their wives is coming from. I think the Bible generally describes marriage as a partnership and although generally the house is a woman's domain and men and women have different roles, I don't think a Biblical society would disapprove of some crossover between the "spheres" or of any hint of romance; a household should ideally be harmonious and that begins with the marital relationship. But I haven't watched every episode, so is there something I've missed that suggests Gilead subscribes to a colder reading on marital relationships as a whole?

 

I also wonder if sex for pleasure between a man and a wife is common.  No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

3 hours ago, Normades said:

She's a young girl, full of hormones, and is utterly lost.  I can buy her kissing the other guardian because she is starving for affection and her hormones took over.  When she was sobbing, she broke my heart.  I felt her loneliness and abandonment.  She can't even reach out to her mother for comfort.  I understand why Nick acts the way he does, but he could have offered her some comfort.  They are both locked into a horrible situation. 

1

I gather that women in Gilead are not allowed to use the phone?  Or could they if they had their husband's permission?  Is Nick in a position that he could use the phone?

[Normades]

15 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

I also wonder if sex for pleasure between a man and a wife is common.  No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I gather that women in Gilead are not allowed to use the phone?  Or could they if they had their husband's permission?  Is Nick in a position that he could use the phone?

I'm really not clear on that, but I was going off of what we've been shown.  It seems that Eden was taken from her family and their farm, which she talks about in a positive way, offered up to a man neither she nor her parents even knew, and has had no contact with her family since.  To me, it makes sense that they would frown on close familial relationships in this culture.  Family members who love and trust each other could start talking and get disillusioned by all of Gilead's rules.  I can't remember seeing women using phones, but we did see Serena leave to visit her mother, so apparently some familial relationships are allowed to remain in tact after marriage.  I just think it seems particularly cruel to throw Eden into this life and give her no one she loves or can trust to talk to.  Of course, cruel seems to be what Gilead does best.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Normades
typo

[LittleRed84]

6 hours ago, Normades said:

I think that's true, too.  I believe it's a little of both in this situation.  He's using their religion to make himself powerful, but when he sees the tortuous results of what he is doing, it helps him feel justification for his actions.  I don't think he's pious at all either.  He's happily using the religion to make himself more powerful, and justifying it all the way.

Also, remember the flashback to Fred and Serena pre-Gilead chasing each other to make love? Even then they both recited bible verses. So this seems very customary to them personally, maybe not Gilead required. But the verse he chooses, he likely uses to justify his actions to himself, Serena, and “God”. 

[Medicine Crow]

OMG, tell me it isn't so!!  Nick is dead???

[mamadrama]

55 minutes ago, Medicine Crow said:

OMG, tell me it isn't so!!  Nick is dead???

Doesn't look like it. When you pause the scene and watch it closely it doesn't even appear that he was shot, just hit with the gun.