S02.E10: The Last Ceremony

[Lemons]

On 6/20/2018 at 7:36 PM, LittleRed84 said:

As a nurse: It’s not the orgasm that induces labor, it’s the prostaglandins in the semen that helps soften and dilate the cervix. I don’t think they cared about her climax. 

I didn’t know that.  They didn’t need to spring it on her like that.  After all they did that gross ceremony every month.  Why couldn’t they just tell her that they were going to use his semen to induce labor?   And why would he allow her to go in a car hours away in the snow after they “induced” labor?  Made no sense at all.  

[Lemons]

On 6/20/2018 at 9:54 PM, Callaphera said:

Word. 

I can appreciate a character and the writing of a character without championing that same character. It's disappointing that it's difficult to speak your mind when the masses automatically jump up and call you out for it. Serena Waterford is hands down my favourite character because of how well she's written compared to June. That doesn't mean that I want to be Serena or even that I like her, but I appreciate what the writers and the actor has done with the role. 

I like the Serena character too.  I actually like all the handmaids better than June.  Her twitching is really starting to bug. 

[BellyLaughter]

On 22/06/2018 at 11:58 AM, chaifan said:

I think the writer of this episode was punked by the rest of the creative staff.  Because what she said in the interview seems miles away from what any of us on this thread saw on screen.  So maybe that's how she originally wrote it, but it's not how it was acted or directed or edited.  I wonder if she actually saw the finished episode.

IKR??!! I listened to an interview she did with Red All Over and I had to go back and re-listen - she did insinuate that both Fred and Serena felt guilty about the rape and she seemed to have an almost sympathetic view of the characters in that moment...I was gobsmacked.

The scenes with Hannah were so heartbreaking (and topical)....just gut wrenching.

Emily "Ronaldo" (poor Emily) FTW!!

Edited June 23, 2018 by BellyLaughter

[BellyLaughter]

Double post. Sorry.

Edited June 22, 2018 by BellyLaughter

[bijoux]

I’ll admit to being stumped by Eden’s characterization. It seems in opposition to when she was introduced. I don’t have a problem with her feeling sexual stirrings, but she feels too demanding after such a short time. When she was introduced not that long ago, she was not prepared for marriage at all beyond procreation, which by Gilead’s rule is not supposed to happen all that often, and it was stated clearly that it was her mother who told her this. Serena was the first who told her sex could be pleasurable. I don’t understand her suddn assumption that Nick should be touching and kissing her. Once a month rutting to make a baby, definitely. Cnoodling, no. It’s not like she’s living in a household with a couple who are affectionate. And I didn’t expect that to be her parents either. Not abusive like the Waterfords in any way, but not people who raised their kid to expect to be anything more than a vessel. The bit about her mom making her dad take out the trash also seemed unbeliavable to me. 

I guess all I’m trying to say is that this would have been a more believable development if it took more time.

Additionally, what is the official reason for Isaac still being there? He came as Nick’s replacement during the Canada trip and Nick is back from Canada.

[Umbelina]

I can believe that Eden came from a loving marriage, and an affectionate one.   Gilead rules have only be around for a few years, and I don't think showing affection is against those rules.  I think she had a romantic if rather chaste idea about love an marriage, that all it took was the ceremony and ring and voila!  Romance!  Kisses!  Hugs!  Praise!  Taking out the garbage!  Saying she looks lovely!  Telling her yellow is a cheery color, just like she is a cheerful wife.

I wasn't thinking about that recently promoted Commander with the pregnant wife, and Fred's obviously uncomfortable and jealous reaction.

If Fred does suspect Nick's the father of June's baby?  (I mean, it's Nick or the doctor, who else could it be?)  Anyway, it's already been mentioned that Nick is being considered for Commander some day.  So if young fertile Nick gets Eden pregnant?  That leaves Fred knowing that Nick knows he's sterile, with TWO babies, and probably no longer Fred's servant, but now his co-commander.  Also, he's younger than he is, and his crush handmaid prefers him.

I still doubt that Fred planned the ambush at the empty  house...but he certainly does have reasons to want Nick gone.

[bijoux]

Eden’s first private conversation with Serena before Eden’s wedding night included Serena talking about kissing, to which Eden replied, I don’t understand. Later, after Serena talks about sex potentially being enjoyed by both spouses, Eden parrots that lust is a sin. That bit starts after the 2:50 mark.

https://youtu.be/bZn-SoHZMvo

It’s those things that made me believe that Eden grew up with definite expectations that lay before her and romantic and sexual love wasn’t it. 

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Eden’s first private conversation with Serena before Eden’s wedding night included Serena talking about kissing, to which Eden replied, I don’t understand. Later, after Serena talks about sex potentially being enjoyed by both spouses, Eden parrots that lust is a sin. That bit starts after the 2:50 mark.

https://youtu.be/bZn-SoHZMvo

It’s those things that made me believe that Eden grew up with definite expectations that lay before her and romantic and sexual love wasn’t it. 

I think she didn't understand the Bible quote, probably never heard it before.  I also doubt her parents explained orgasms to her, most parents don't, especially overly religious parents.  Serena may have been the one to put "this can be pleasurable and bring you closer" into her head.  That, and pure biology at 15.

None of that says her parents weren't affectionate with one another now, just that they didn't drop and go at it on the dining room table in front of their kids whenever the mood struck them.  An affectionate hug or kiss on the cheek, or taking out the garbage for your wife is hardly a sign of LUST, which is what Eden thought was a sin, until Mrs. Waterford told her that wasn't true for a husband and wife.

As I said, I think she's very innocent, and warped Gilead has made her believe that with marriage would come affection such as she saw between her parents.  I didn't mean that her mom wore a peak-a-boo bra while making the oatmeal and daddy took her from behind.  ;~)  (not that I would know anything about that)

[The Mighty Peanut]

I don’t know how to say this articulately— I don’t like or appreciate rape, rape is 100% horrible 100% of the time and I kind of had to remove myself mentally from those scenes because of my own assault experiences (#metoo). However I “liked” that they didn’t go the gore-nography route and focus only on the tragic suffering of women. Showing the men heaving and thrusting highlighted the taking/stealing element of rape, and showing both Emily and June in corpse like states afterwards was...accurate. Serena and Fred are both monsters and need to be jailed but Fred’s show of power with taking her to see Hannah was laced with remorse, not enough to make it right, but to demonstrate that he’s not cartoon villain evil. I also was reminded of a few years back when there was legislation introduced, I want to say it was anti-abortion related but I’m not sure, but it involved the phrasing “legitimate rape”. It was the thing where some fucking idiot politician said women don't get pregnant from rape because "they have a way of shutting the whole thing down". To the surprise of no one it turned out a lot of people still believed the stereotype of a violent rape and abduction scenario being a real rape versus the quiet date rape by a boyfriend. I feel the opposing rape scenarios showed rape is rape no matter what.

A gratuitous rape would be (IMO) more of a Game of Thrones scenario where people are talking as an extra is shown being raped in the background just to demonstrate that these are bad guys and a more important character is in danger. I LOVE GoT but they go into gratuitous territory. YMMV but for me June and Emily’s scenes were important to the context of the show.

Edited June 22, 2018 by The Mighty Peanut

[lu1535]

I apologize if this was already mentioned but I've never heard of sex bringing on labor. It didn't work for me and my doctor said as long as it didn't hurt, go for it. Is it some old wives tale?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

I’ll admit to being stumped by Eden’s characterization. It seems in opposition to when she was introduced. I don’t have a problem with her feeling sexual stirrings, but she feels too demanding after such a short time. When she was introduced not that long ago, she was not prepared for marriage at all beyond procreation, which by Gilead’s rule is not supposed to happen all that often, and it was stated clearly that it was her mother who told her this. Serena was the first who told her sex could be pleasurable. I don’t understand her suddn assumption that Nick should be touching and kissing her. Once a month rutting to make a baby, definitely. Cnoodling, no. It’s not like she’s living in a household with a couple who are affectionate. And I didn’t expect that to be her parents either. Not abusive like the Waterfords in any way, but not people who raised their kid to expect to be anything more than a vessel. The bit about her mom making her dad take out the trash also seemed unbeliavable to me. 

I guess all I’m trying to say is that this would have been a more believable development if it took more time.

Additionally, what is the official reason for Isaac still being there? He came as Nick’s replacement during the Canada trip and Nick is back from Canada.

 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I can believe that Eden came from a loving marriage, and an affectionate one.   Gilead rules have only be around for a few years, and I don't think showing affection is against those rules.  I think she had a romantic if rather chaste idea about love an marriage, that all it took was the ceremony and ring and voila!  Romance!  Kisses!  Hugs!  Praise!  Taking out the garbage!  Saying she looks lovely!  Telling her yellow is a cheery color, just like she is a cheerful wife.

I wasn't thinking about that recently promoted Commander with the pregnant wife, and Fred's obviously uncomfortable and jealous reaction.

If Fred does suspect Nick's the father of June's baby?  (I mean, it's Nick or the doctor, who else could it be?)  Anyway, it's already been mentioned that Nick is being considered for Commander some day.  So if young fertile Nick gets Eden pregnant?  That leaves Fred knowing that Nick knows he's sterile, with TWO babies, and probably no longer Fred's servant, but now his co-commander.  Also, he's younger than he is, and his crush handmaid prefers him.

I still doubt that Fred planned the ambush at the empty  house...but he certainly does have reasons to want Nick gone.

 

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think she didn't understand the Bible quote, probably never heard it before.  I also doubt her parents explained orgasms to her, most parents don't, especially overly religious parents.  Serena may have been the one to put "this can be pleasurable and bring you closer" into her head.  That, and pure biology at 15.

None of that says her parents weren't affectionate with one another now, just that they didn't drop and go at it on the dining room table in front of their kids whenever the mood struck them.  An affectionate hug or kiss on the cheek, or taking out the garbage for your wife is hardly a sign of LUST, which is what Eden thought was a sin, until Mrs. Waterford told her that wasn't true for a husband and wife.

As I said, I think she's very innocent, and warped Gilead has made her believe that with marriage would come affection such as she saw between her parents.  I didn't mean that her mom wore a peak-a-boo bra while making the oatmeal and daddy took her from behind.  ;~)  (not that I would know anything about that)

Basically what @Umbelina said. Eden may be young but she doesn’t have cognitive problems. It seems she grew up in a family where they did love/like each other in a natural way. 

Lust (as Eden proceives as a sin) is very different than affection, love and genuine interest. Eden probably expected her assigned husband to be NICE to her, to want to talk to her and engage with her because she’s right there. Only the Commanders have the option of leaving home and hanging out at Jezabel’s. A man of Nick’s station has a job and goes home to his wife.....despite women being lesser beings in this society, most people would at least speak nicely to a being that can speak back unless there was some other reason. 

[alexvillage]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That could still play out.  This visit and the consequences of it for many characters is certainly not resolved yet

What I was trying to say is that the acting was bad, whatever the outcome of the story.

[alexvillage]

30 minutes ago, lu1535 said:

I apologize if this was already mentioned but I've never heard of sex bringing on labor. It didn't work for me and my doctor said as long as it didn't hurt, go for it. Is it some old wives tale?

I thought it was more than a tale but I did some superficial research and while orgasm does release oxycontin, which is the chemical doctors give women who need inducing (I think), What is released in an orgasm is not enough to induce labor. 

[LordOfLotion]

20 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I thought it was more than a tale but I did some superficial research and while orgasm does release oxycontin, which is the chemical doctors give women who need inducing (I think), What is released in an orgasm is not enough to induce labor. 

I think you mean oxytocin.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 6/20/2018 at 4:56 PM, The Mighty Peanut said:

Raping June was the best sex Serena and Fred have ever had. Her loss of power was a potent aphrodisiac for them. I agree with someone upthread that said she made a catastrophic mistake when she asked Fred if something was in his power (not that the rape was in any way her fault--it absolutely wasn't). 

I can't get over the fact that Fred got off on June absolutely 1000% not wanting it to happen, and screaming "No"; it's so unbearably disgusting, but all sex in Gilead is rape anyway and all the men get off, so this is very normal in this society.  It's actually a requirement of this society.

Anyways, I love Nick now.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[bluebox]

46 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I thought it was more than a tale but I did some superficial research and while orgasm does release oxycontin, which is the chemical doctors give women who need inducing (I think), What is released in an orgasm is not enough to induce labor. 

It has already been explained, but basically semen ripens the cervix, so it can soften/efface. Not an old wives tale, it's legit. But it's not like you have sex and go into labor 6 hours later as a result.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 6/20/2018 at 11:48 AM, AnswersWanted said:

 

I think it would depend on her personality and how it has developed in Gilead. 

The thing for me has been that Hannah was not so little during the escape, heh. 

I know she should have been of course, it was laid out in the book, but the show obviously cast this precious girl who was older. 

I forgave the show for it but clearly she was not an actual toddler during the escape attempt. Easily she was four or five, so add three years and she’s elementary age. 

It could be that she actively would try to forget or put the past out of her mind, I could see that, but for drama’s sake I would have enjoyed a conversation between them talking about their family.

It would have been June’s first chance to in Gilead to talk about such matters with someone who is just as connected to her past as she is.

I was also thinking that an older Hannah would have had a much strong reaction to seeing June pregnant, especially knowing her new baby brother or sister would be taken away, 

Just imaging her asking about who the baby would go to, who are Fred and Serena, are they nice?

For June to face such innocent questions after being brutally attached and raped by them? Gosh. 

For me, it seems that the way they presented Hannah back at the beginning of the series vs now, despite the actress being the same, was, in fact, very successful. Maybe it was the camera angles used - although they didn't know for certain that the show would be picked up for another season when initially casting - but my mind more or less interpreted Hannah as being maybe five years old, and she appeared to be about three or four years older to me in this week's episode. I'm not sure how old the actress is in real life, but I was actually surprised to learn that it was the same girl. I usually watch this show on my laptop, though, and with much of it being shot in such relative darkness, exacerbated by the angle my screen might be at sometimes, it can be hard, occasionally, to really differentiate faces and details.

[Becks]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:58 AM, VagueDisclaimer said:

The writing has become so sloppy, making the characters so sloppy, I’ve just stopped questioning these obvious moments and declared this the season of suspension of disbelief. There’s just no telling when a sloppy moment will actually be significant until the TV show tells us. 

Yes, exactly. The writers are having the characters do incredibly sloppy, dumbass things for plot purposes/short-term satisfaction moments that do not square up with what we know of their intelligence and what they've learned from their time under these conditions. I mean, I get that June had just been through the fake labor and was not at her best. I'm glad she's still got enough inner oomph to want to pull Serena's tail, but come on. Same thing with confirming for Fred that he is not the baby's father in a moment of spite. The brain, let's use it, please.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 1:26 PM, Shaynaa said:

I am continually bothered at how much of the show is from the white, male gaze.  Calling that out sure isn't sexist.  I so wish the show runner was not a man.  That's not a knock on Bruce who is very talented but this show really needed to be from a women's perspective.

As I watch I'm always asking myself, 'Would this be different if...?'. I can't help thinking that as well-meaning as Miller is, there are subtleties that are missing, aspects that are going unexplored, and emphasis that is being misplaced because a man is the captain of the ship on a very female story.

 

12 hours ago, maystone said:

I won't get to see the episode until Sunday because I live in Canada, but I do read this forum ahead of time, and I watched the "inside the episode" vid posted here. Umbelina? I actually spat out "Fuck you!" at the screen when he said the very condescending "Gilead is not a soft, comfy, wonderful place" and the audience needs to be shown that. Is there a woman watching this show who doesn't get that on a visceral level that no man will ever be able to experience, no matter how sympathetic he is? I was furious. I am furious! Rape is not an object lesson, asshole. It's not a teaching moment. I understand the centrality of The Ceremony to the story, but never, ever decide that rubbing our faces in that fact is necessary for our understanding of what it means to be a woman in a man's world.

See what I wrote above. No woman watching this show needs that message that Miller felt he should to deliver to us. We KNOW. We walk around in these female bodies every day. Who was that reminder for, really?

 

11 hours ago, chaifan said:

I think the writer of this episode was punked by the rest of the creative staff.  Because what she said in the interview seems miles away from what any of us on this thread saw on screen.  So maybe that's how she originally wrote it, but it's not how it was acted or directed or edited.  I wonder if she actually saw the finished episode.

This. I definitely did not get that Fred and Serena were just so shocked by June's fighting back - both of them knew that this wasn't just another ceremony. Underpinning the whole thing was anger - it was clear just from Fred's roughness that he was working out the lust that had been frustrated all season, and his fury at her for the humiliation of the false labor and the confirmation that he wasn't the baby's father. Serena's partial motivation for even suggesting it was her anger at June for the false labor and I don't buy that Fred was swimming in guilt at the end - why? This man has no functioning moral compass.

 

21 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm finding myself surprisingly and increasingly invested in the story of Nick, a man who can't be with the woman he believes himself in love with or the child he was basically cornered into standing stud for and is having dispassionate unwanted sex with a girl he knows is little more than a child to avoid endangering himself or said woman and child, in this seminal feminist work.  At times, the character is reading more sympathetically than most of the female characters who are weekly being subjected to some pretty terrible things.  I don't know if I'm necessarily complaining about it, but at the same time I can't help but wonder if that would still be happening to this degree if the show runner was a woman. 

I'm certainly finding myself more interested in Nick's dilemmas than Luke's, for example...but it has been my experience with TV shows based on books by female writers with a female lead that male showrunners, consciously or not, will frequently glom onto a secondary male character and build him up, emphasizing him in a way that isn't done in the source material. Do they need that male character as a way 'in' to the story for themselves? IDK. But it happens a lot. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Becks

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 6/21/2018 at 7:37 AM, alexvillage said:

I actually like that he is not willing to do anything anymore. It gives the character some humanity. He sees her as a child, and he doesn't want to have sex with a child. Even a kiss. I like that he seems to understand how hard it is. He is supposed to help populate Gilead, but he doesn't want to have sex with someone so young. And Eden knows that she is supposed to get pregnant. She was brainwashed into serving, and she believes sex with her husband, and getting pregnant, is her duty.

I like it too.  It seems that some perspectives really care about Eden's feelings.  But what about Nick's?  He's not into the idea of raping a kid or even flirting with or entertaining the idea.  That's how I see it.  There's a lot of anger towards Nick and June not being subservient enough or faking it enough but I can't seem to muster up any of that.  I can't get mad at a rebellious spirit.  The only people it hurts is themselves.  There are so many things to get mad at in Gilead that I really can't understand getting mad at the prisoners and the victims.  Nick is not exactly that but he clearly is not a believer.  And he clearly doesn't enjoy rape.  And he is not attracted to children.   LOL.  All of these just seem like great characteristics to me.  The idea of pretending to be attracted to a child disgusts me personally and I wouldn't do it either.  So Nick just seems so 'real world' to me.  Relatable.  Like he's from the modern world while so many others seem indoctrinated.  

I waver between, it is so unrealistic that Eden would make out with the guard, and well Eden is a hormonal teenager who probably overdramatizes and overromanticizes everything so it makes sense.  I don't know what I think.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Close to her age was relative. I meant he wasn’t some wrinkled old man with no visual sex appeal.

 

I acknowledge like the actress playing Eden, Max has a baby face and reads younger than his years. The actors are only a decade apart, I was thinking the same for the characters. 

When you were 15 were you attracted to 30 year olds?  I certainly wasn't. 

(Edited:  I didn't intend this post to be argumentative, I am just trying to show that the Gilead society is extremely abnormal in comparison to the society I am from.  It could be extremely difficult or even impossible for Nick to act 'right'.)

Edited June 22, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[The Mighty Peanut]

1 hour ago, Becks said:

This. I definitely did not get that Fred and Serena were just so shocked by June's fighting back - both of them knew that this wasn't just another ceremony. Underpinning the whole thing was anger - it was clear just from Fred's roughness that he was working out the lust that had been frustrated all season, and his fury at her for the humiliation of the false labor and the confirmation that he wasn't the baby's father. Serena's partial motivation for even suggesting it was her anger at June for the false labor and I don't buy that Fred was swimming in guilt at the end - why? This man has no functioning moral compass.

I interpreted the scene as Fred and Serena enjoying themselves immensely and feeling slightly ashamed of themselves afterwards. It just seemed like for the first time in a long time they were enjoying an intimate act together. That it was June's rape didn't matter to them--it was still sex between two people like if they were using a toy. The look on Serena's face seemed so fierce and determined. If the writers say it was supposed to add Serena's closet full of teal blue and self-doubt, then ok I accept that, however I didn't read the scene that way either.

Edited June 22, 2018 by The Mighty Peanut

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Lemons said:

I didn’t know that.  They didn’t need to spring it on her like that.  After all they did that gross ceremony every month.  Why couldn’t they just tell her that they were going to use his semen to induce labor?   And why would he allow her to go in a car hours away in the snow after they “induced” labor?  Made no sense at all.  

That's a good point, I never even thought of that.

3 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I don’t know how to say this articulately— I don’t like or appreciate rape, rape is 100% horrible 100% of the time and I kind of had to remove myself mentally from those scenes because of my own assault experiences (#metoo). However I “liked” that they didn’t go the gore-nography route and focus only on the tragic suffering of women. Showing the men heaving and thrusting highlighted the taking/stealing element of rape, and showing both Emily and June in corpse like states afterwards was...accurate. Serena and Fred are both monsters and need to be jailed but Fred’s show of power with taking her to see Hannah was laced with remorse, not enough to make it right, but to demonstrate that he’s not cartoon villain evil. I also was reminded of a few years back when there was legislation introduced, I want to say it was anti-abortion related but I’m not sure, but it involved the phrasing “legitimate rape”. It was the thing where some fucking idiot politician said women don't get pregnant from rape because "they have a way of shutting the whole thing down". To the surprise of no one it turned out a lot of people still believed the stereotype of a violent rape and abduction scenario being a real rape versus the quiet date rape by a boyfriend. I feel the opposing rape scenarios showed rape is rape no matter what.

A gratuitous rape would be (IMO) more of a Game of Thrones scenario where people are talking as an extra is shown being raped in the background just to demonstrate that these are bad guys and a more important character is in danger. I LOVE GoT but they go into gratuitous territory. YMMV but for me June and Emily’s scenes were important to the context of the show.

I think you were very articulate.

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Basically what @Umbelina said. Eden may be young but she doesn’t have cognitive problems. It seems she grew up in a family where they did love/like each other in a natural way. 

Lust (as Eden proceives as a sin) is very different than affection, love and genuine interest. Eden probably expected her assigned husband to be NICE to her, to want to talk to her and engage with her because she’s right there. Only the Commanders have the option of leaving home and hanging out at Jezabel’s. A man of Nick’s station has a job and goes home to his wife.....despite women being lesser beings in this society, most people would at least speak nicely to a being that can speak back unless there was some other reason. 

Agreed. Being nice, being kind, is a pretty low bar to achieve, imo.

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I like it too.  It seems that some perspectives really care about Eden's feelings.  But what about Nick's?  He's not into the idea of raping a kid or even flirting with or entertaining the idea.  That's how I see it.  There's a lot of anger towards Nick and June not being subservient enough or faking it enough but I can't seem to muster up any of that.  I can't get mad at a rebellious spirit.  The only people it hurts is themselves.  There are so many things to get mad at in Gilead that I really can't understand getting mad at the prisoners and the victims.  Nick is not exactly that but he clearly is not a believer.  And he clearly doesn't enjoy rape.  And he is not attracted to children.   LOL.  All of these just seem like great characteristics to me.  The idea of pretending to be attracted to a child disgusts me personally and I wouldn't do it either.  So Nick just seems so 'real world' to me.  Relatable.  Like he's from the modern world while so many others seem indoctrinated.  

I waver between, it is so unrealistic that Eden would make out with the guard, and well Eden is a hormonal teenager who probably overdramatizes and overromanticizes everything so it makes sense.  I don't know what I think.

That Nick doesn't want to have sex with Eden is certainly a strong point in his favor. My biggest complaint is that he hasn't shown her any kindness. I'm not talking about strategy - as means  to keep his relationship with June under wraps, but basic human kindness. So my question has been - is he kind only to women he wants to fuck or who carry his baby? I have not been a particular fan of Eden, but throw the girl a crumb for goodness sake. She'd dine on it as if it were a meal.

[Shangrilala]

On 6/21/2018 at 7:37 AM, alexvillage said:

I actually like that he is not willing to do anything anymore. It gives the character some humanity. He sees her as a child, and he doesn't want to have sex with a child. Even a kiss. I like that he seems to understand how hard it is. He is supposed to help populate Gilead, but he doesn't want to have sex with someone so young. And Eden knows that she is supposed to get pregnant. She was brainwashed into serving, and she believes sex with her husband, and getting pregnant, is her duty.

Except right now he's doing plenty.  He's AWFUL to her.  Don't give the girl a kiss, okay.  How about conversation?  Kindness?   How about sitting her down and talking with her?  Explain that they barely know each other, arranged marriages are not immediate love stories.  He hasn't shown her any affection but he also hasn't even been decent.  And to what end?  What's that going to achieve for either of them?  There are a lot of ways to hurt a woman.  Especially a 15 year old child who knows nothing more than what she's been raised to believe about relationships and her role in society.  

My issue with Nick is that I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with him.  It seems to me that anything he has done that is to help people is driven by personal motive and/or gain.  He got to where he was by keeping his mouth shut and being complacent.  And, I think he's kind of an asshole.  How he acted towards June after she was brought to Jezebels the first time?  He clearly had no issue with accepting sexual favors from the chef at Jezebels.  He, too, raped June - let's not forget that followed by his typical "Im sorry this is happening to you" type statements (he could have said no.  He could have lied to Serena and said that he already knew that it wouldn't be successful--at that point Serena was already acknowledging the fact that Gileand's declaration that only the women were barren was horseshit.  The way he berated and physically loomed over Eden when she cleaned the apartment?  His barely there acknowledgment of her?  And what has Nick's worst experience in Gilead been.  Forced complacency?  Inconvenience?   Why does he, a grown man, get to be moody and treat people poorly, especially the people who are the greatest victims in society?     

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

If Nick finds the thought of having sex with an underage girl so abhorrent, he would device some ways to not do it.

One of the ways he could do that is by gaining her trust. He can do that by being kind to her. He should without a motive - that is just common decency. But a decent person won't be an accomplice of this regime, but I digress.  Giving a fuck about her, not just when he's fucking, her would go a long way into him having influence on her.

The ceremonies don't have to occur. We have already been told this when Emily's former Wife excused them from the ordeal. Nick, if he can get Eden in his corner, could make up excuses she would believe. He only just have to treat her decently 

Edited June 22, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[kieyra]

Quote

That Nick doesn't want to have sex with Eden is certainly a strong point in his favor. My biggest complaint is that he hasn't shown her any kindness. I'm not talking about strategy - as means  to keep his relationship with June under wraps, but basic human kindness.

Yes to this (and several of the posts that follow). Be a human being, treat her as a person, talk to her; or for fuck's sake use what I assume is some level of skill in basic deceit/manipulation (again I say: this guy is supposed to be a double agent?). Just handle this tricky situation. You know, instead of being a cold-hearted, chain-smoking lump and making the situation even worse by visibly pining after June. 

He absolutely has other choices that don't involve him having to lay a finger on her. 

(I can think of any number of them, starting with "Work is really difficult since the bombing; it's not you, it's me." Or possibly, "I've received divine inspiration that God wants us to wait until you're a little older.")

[chaifan]

29 minutes ago, kieyra said:

Yes to this (and several of the posts that follow). Be a human being, treat her as a person, talk to her; or for fuck's sake use what I assume is some level of skill in basic deceit/manipulation (again I say: this guy is supposed to be a double agent?). Just handle this tricky situation. You know, instead of being a cold-hearted, chain-smoking lump and making the situation even worse by visibly pining after June. 

He absolutely has other choices that don't involve him having to lay a finger on her. 

(I can think of any number of them, starting with "Work is really difficult since the bombing; it's not you, it's me." Or possibly, "I've received divine inspiration that God wants us to wait until you're a little older.")

I can't agree more.  Not only should Nick be nicer to Eden because it's the right thing to do in terms of basic human decency, but also because it is the smart thing to do for his basic survival!  I'd love to see more of Nick as an Eye or Mayday member, because as Kieyra has noted, he certainly sucks at being able to pull off any sort of deception/cover in his everyday life.  Again, I chalk it up to lazy writing, but I still hope there is a plot driven explanation to this.  I'm just not seeing it.

[KillBill]

Serena Joy is batshit crazy! I couldn't believe she would even suggest such a thing. She looked like a spoilt little brat when the doctor said he wouldn't induce the labor. She thinks she should have complete control over June, even over something as natural as giving birth.How does she feel holding down another woman while she's being raped?....so nauseating.

 I wonder who came up with the idea for the wives to pretend to be in labor and why the rest of them agreed it was an excellent idea? Cause they all look ridiculous.

The scene with Hannah and June broke my heart, how cruel to let her only see her daughter for ten minutes! Its almost like the Waterfords' plan to get the baby out is to put June through more hell than usual. Poor Hannah, I can't imagine as a child being stripped away from my family and everything I know. And i totally sympathize with her blaming June for not finding her. She most likely doesn't completely understand the whole dynamic of Gilead.

When Hannah left and another car drove up, i thought "Yessssss, Nick came through with another escape plan!" but nope....Why did they have to shoot Nick? it wasn't necessary and why wouldn't they check the rest of the house to see if anyone else was there? A part of me believes it was a set up because the whole deduction that he was lying from one question, shooting and throwing him into the car so quickly seemed like a show for June. 

Also does Karma not exist in this show? The Waterfords are overdue.

[ShalimarGirl]

I hate the fact that they’ve chosen to invent a 15 year girl to be yet another villain here. We already have enough death, rape, dismemberment, torture and oppression of women at the hands of other women, so why introduce a very young woman as the one who’s “hormones” (you know how hysterical the ladies get, amirite?) may bring about the downfall of our main protagonists. Eden is a victim. She was taken away from her family, married to a stranger and gets statutorily raped at least once a month by a guy who can’t even be bothered to spare a kind word or a smile in her direction.

Aside from that, her actions in this episode don’t make any sense. Whether her parents were true believers or regular people who did what they had to in order to survive, the results should be the same in that she knows and understands the rules of Gilead and what happens to people who break them. Why would Serena Joy tell her “lust” between a husband and wife isn’t a sin when we’ve been shown that it is? Remember when Fred had e.d. during a rape “ceremony” and she tried to help him and again when they were hot for each other after the Mexican ambassadors visit? He stopped her both times and later told her that she brought sin into their home on her knees and on her back (I would have to rewatch for the exact quote). Eden seemed to understand that on her wedding night, so I can’t understand where “you never touch me unless you have to” comes from. Isn’t that the LAW in Gilead that you don’t touch unless you have to and the only reason you have to is to make a baby? Punishable by losing a hand or worse? If they’re supposed to have perfunctory, procreation only sex through a sheet and her husband is her “master” who can whip her for insolence (or worse) how did she suddenly get so bold? It’s not like she really knows Nick and can feel secure speaking to him that way. And the way she romanticized her first kiss then tried to use “cheating” on him to provoke a reaction seemed more like something from a soap opera, disney movie or Seventeen magazine than anything she would have learned in the Gilead Pictograph Manual for Young Econo-wives.

And are we supposed to believe that she’s unaware of the consequences of kissing Isaac or is it just those uncontrollable 15 year old girl hormones at work again? What if Fred had seen them? I’m sure he would use that as leverage to start raping her on the regular lest she end up on the wall. But honestly, I think Isaac is probably the person she is in the greatest danger from and she doesn’t even realize it. She knows Nick saw them so Isaac probably knows, too. Too many people have seen them being friendly together for any kind of plausible deniability, and we’ve already seen how cruel he is, so I’m sure he’ll simply accuse her of seducing him. If/when Nick comes back I’m willing to bet she will be blamed as the jezebel who distracted him from his guard duties which afforded Nick and June the opportunity to “escape.” I’m sure Fred wants to be rid of Nick and would be more than happy to go along with that version if Nick is still alive. The only hope Eden has at this point is possibly being pregnant, though that’s not exactly a blessing in Gilead. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Quote

Serena Joy is batshit crazy! I couldn't believe she would even suggest such a thing

I can. Aside from the fact that she's been monthly raping her, she forced her on Nick too. 

Being a rapist is her MO but it is easily overlooked as she is not in possession of the penis that does the actual deed. That is the only thing I can think of why her actions in this episode is a surprise

Edited June 22, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[ShalimarGirl]

18 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I can. Aside from the fact that she's been monthly raping her, she forced her on Nick too. 

Being a rapist is her MO but it is easily overlooked as she is not in possession of the penis that does the actual deed. That is the only thing I can think of why her actions in this episode is surprising 

I can, too. Rape is about violence, power, humiliation and control. Nothing else, no penis required. Everything we need to know about why they did it was said in the greenhouse. Serena thought June enjoyed embarrassing her with her false labor in front of her “friends” and Fred said she had forgotten her place. They were angry and decided to punish her. 

[Umbelina]

The rape was horrifying.

However I disagree about the motivations.  I think Serena wanted June (and Handmaid's in general) OUT of her house.  Semen on the cervix was the quickest way she could make that happen (it's a real thing, google it) after the doctor wouldn't induce June.

I think Canada shook Serena up quite a bit, she saw the hatred (protests) and disgust (woman in the elevator with the daughter) and she saw Luke's sign spelling out EXACTLY what they do in Gilead, break up families, and RAPE other men's wives.  It was in her face when those women at the last protest held up defiant and effective signs "MY NAME IS MOIRA/BRIDGET/ASHLEY/JANE..."  They were people, not OF-any man.

She saw what her life is now missing with the people kissing on the streets, the cell phones, the laughing, the women in business suits with no guardians trailing them.  She looked at her teal wardrobe after seeing all the women dressing as they chose to, living a life she missed.

Back in Gilead after that, I honestly don't think she could stand it anymore.  As soon as that baby is born, she's rid of June, and rid of Handmaids, at least in her own home, FOREVER.  She had to make that happen ASAP or lose her mind.  She had to have that baby, as a justification for all she's put herself, and certainly the other women through.  Once she could hold that precious baby, I think she thought, the rest of the horror would fade with her overwhelming love for her child.

For Serena, rape was a means to an end.  Did she expect June to struggle and scream?  No, I really don't think she did.  I do think that shocked her, much like the protesters she saw in Canada shook her to her very core, June protesting in her own bedroom was unexpected.  Once she was back in Gilead, she was lying to herself again, and accepting casual horrors as normal.

For Fred?  Who the hell knows.  He probably wanted to get laid, he's been too scared to go to Jezebel's after he watched his buddy's hand chopped off, and he knows he's on shaky ground for other reasons.  Was he also angry at June, and raping her put her in his place and gave him that temporary and fleeting feeling of "being a man" again?  Yes.  Definitely.

[chaifan]

47 minutes ago, ShalimarGirl said:

I hate the fact that they’ve chosen to invent a 15 year girl to be yet another villain here. We already have enough death, rape, dismemberment, torture and oppression of women at the hands of other women, so why introduce a very young woman as the one who’s “hormones” (you know how hysterical the ladies get, amirite?) may bring about the downfall of our main protagonists. Eden is a victim. She was taken away from her family, married to a stranger and gets statutorily raped at least once a month by a guy who can’t even be bothered to spare a kind word or a smile in her direction.

 

I mostly agree with your post, and that Eden is also a victim of Gilead.  But, to get a little technical here, she is not a victim of rape, statutory or otherwise.  I think I get what you're trying to say - 15 years old would be statutory rape now, in the US (or at least in most jurisdictions, I think there are still some where 15 is legal).  But under Gilead laws that isn't the case.  She's in an arranged marriage, of sorts, which still occurs today even in some very civilized populations.  A bit young for our tastes, but even that's a relatively recent change in our culture.

I'm ok with Eden being a semi-villain, or at least ambiguous in that regard.  It shows that even the most innocent can bring someone down, whether intentionally or accidentally.  It actually gives her a little agency (whether she knows it or not), and makes her a more interesting character than an obedient subservient wifey wife.  But the rest of her character traits?  I agree with you, Shalimargirl, she's all over the place and none of it makes sense. 

[Umbelina]

Girls as young as 13 marry all the time in the current USA, usually to men much older than they are.

Also, the writers didn't "invent" that marriage ceremony or girls like Eden.  That was in the book.  Eden specifically was not, but the group arranged marriages to strangers when the girls were 15?  Was.

The story isn't working quite as well for me, because, as has been pointed out, Nick simply isn't behaving like a smart man here.  She would be pacified by so very little, and he gives her nothing.  He's not cruel to her, he's just completely cold to her, and he doesn't have to do that.  It's hard to justify why he would, and the writers shouldn't be expecting us to fill in the gaps there.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, KillBill said:

The scene with Hannah and June broke my heart, how cruel to let her only see her daughter for ten minutes! Its almost like the Waterfords' plan to get the baby out is to put June through more hell than usual. Poor Hannah, I can't imagine as a child being stripped away from my family and everything I know. And i totally sympathize with her blaming June for not finding her. She most likely doesn't completely understand the whole dynamic of Gilead.

Also does Karma not exist in this show? The Waterfords are overdue.

The thought has occurred to me that Waterford's "gift" was also meant as a torture. Seeing your child from afar is bad enough, but to be with her for a few short minutes, and know you cannot be with her. Seems sheer torture to me.

As for Karma - I'm still waiting to see Karma get some truly bad people in real life. Some of the worst have lived to a ripe old age, so I'm not sure I trust in it.

[LBS]

In regards to Eden this was the first episode where it really hit me about how incredibly lonely and incredibly young she is.  I think that is what spurred her actions.  It has been touched on in this thread but she has no friends.  No one treats her with affection.  At least the commander wives can visit with each other but it appears that the only time she leaves the apartment is to go to the store and be shunned by the Handmaids (not that I blame them).  Her life all of a sudden became my worst nightmare of walking into a high school cafeteria and literally having everyone tell her she can’t sit with them.

I couldn’t imagine leaving my family

 

Spoiler

according to spoilers she has a sister that I just assume she was close to and could confide in

And being thrust in this cold, unsettled, hostile house.  Right before she is valiantly trying to talk to Rita and offering up small tidbits of her life to Rita probably hoping that Rita would respond and maybe ask a follow up question. I think she kissed Isaac to make herself feel loved and wanted at least for that moment.  Her emotional well being is being starved to death and she grabbed that opportunity like I grab the fattiest piece of food next to the healthy salad in the fridge when I’m starving.  Bad choice but my brain doesn’t care at that point.  

This is all jumbled but this episode jumbled me really bad.  I’m still processing it.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

 

As for Karma - I'm still waiting to see Karma get some truly bad people in real life. Some of the worst have lived to a ripe old age, so I'm not sure I trust in it.

I don't really believe in it, for the same reason, but there have been a few times when I've been amused by something happening (non life-threatening, not really awful, just inconvenient). Of course, being amused by it probably brought bad karma onto me. I generally don't wish for it for anyone. I just wish for things to be better.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Anela

[Door]

Nick is certainly no strategist, is he? That scene with Eden could have been handled in such a way as to make her more of an ally than she currently is to him. Nick is pretty short sighted to alienate her further vs. try to explain the situation from his perspective. There are tons of reasons he could give Eden for being distant without even mentioning June.

Along the same lines, I hate when characters are written to NOT ask the obvious questions or give the obvious answers. That happened a lot this episode.

I knew June was heading for a fall. She was flouting too many rules, but what the hell happened to the chained-up option? The option June was warned about and briefly in when she was caught trying to escape? Wouldn't that option be the easiest and cleanest for pretty much everybody? Pretty guaranteed, too. The rape option is disgusting and doesn't make sense even if I'm thinking like a psychopath... maybe my imaginary psychopathy is too pragmatic for Gilead's sadistic undercurrents.

[alexvillage]

20 hours ago, LordOfLotion said:

I think you mean oxytocin.

I guess I did, haha. 

It also means that I didn't really pay attention to what I read.

Edited June 23, 2018 by alexvillage

[alexvillage]

17 hours ago, Shangrilala said:

Except right now he's doing plenty.  He's AWFUL to her.  Don't give the girl a kiss, okay.  How about conversation?  Kindness?   How about sitting her down and talking with her?  Explain that they barely know each other, arranged marriages are not immediate love stories.  He hasn't shown her any affection but he also hasn't even been decent.  And to what end?  What's that going to achieve for either of them?  There are a lot of ways to hurt a woman.  Especially a 15 year old child who knows nothing more than what she's been raised to believe about relationships and her role in society.  

My issue with Nick is that I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with him.  It seems to me that anything he has done that is to help people is driven by personal motive and/or gain.  He got to where he was by keeping his mouth shut and being complacent.  And, I think he's kind of an asshole.  How he acted towards June after she was brought to Jezebels the first time?  He clearly had no issue with accepting sexual favors from the chef at Jezebels.  He, too, raped June - let's not forget that followed by his typical "Im sorry this is happening to you" type statements (he could have said no.  He could have lied to Serena and said that he already knew that it wouldn't be successful--at that point Serena was already acknowledging the fact that Gileand's declaration that only the women were barren was horseshit.  The way he berated and physically loomed over Eden when she cleaned the apartment?  His barely there acknowledgment of her?  And what has Nick's worst experience in Gilead been.  Forced complacency?  Inconvenience?   Why does he, a grown man, get to be moody and treat people poorly, especially the people who are the greatest victims in society?     

Good points.

Maybe I am just willing to give more credit to the writers and see the character as I wish they were writing him, a little more torn by all that happens in Gilead than he actually is.

I also don't really understand Eden's character. I really didn't care about her at first. I should go back and see if I can get an idea of the purpose of the character. 

[AllyB]

I'm starting to get that Battlestar Galactica feeling about THT. Back in the first few seasons of BSG it all seemed so tightly plotted and there was a lot of mystery regarding who was and wasn't a cylon. Fans spent a lot of time theorising about all the little clues they thought they were picking up in scenes. But as the series went on it became absolutely obvious that the writers had no idea in the early seasons about what was going to happen in the later seasons so all the clues we thought we'd been picking up on, were never there. And as the show went on and the writers suddenly decided on plotpoints they'd implied they'd always known, they had to completely change their personalities, motivations and even retcon the most ridiculous secret storylines into the plot.

And that's where I think we are with The Handmaids Tale. There is no point in speculating whether or not Serena is on a redemption arc. She will just do whatever the writers decide for her in an individual episode regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Was Nick set up by Fred, by Isaac, by Mayday or was it a random patrol that has taken him in such a ridiculously suspicious way? It will be whatever suits the writers in the next episode where Nick pops up regardless of whether or not it makes sense for the characters to have acted that way. Will June be defiant one moment and cowed the next with little to no reasoning for the sudden change? Yup. Will Eden go from believing she is subservient to men, especially her husband, to kissing another man out of nowhere and then making demands of her husband? Yup. Will Hannah's "new father" just randomly agree to having Hannah meet her real mother for absolutely no benefit that could ever be worth that to him? Sure. Why not? None of it has to make sense. The writers don't care about making sense, just the drama within the episode.

Atwood's book was about a carefully crafted world where everything made sense within the setting but whenever the series writers expand upon that they don't do so with care. There is no story 'bible' where how Gilead, the wider world and the people in both function. That was clear as soon as the Mexico episode happened but I'd hoped that they'd do better as they moved into an entirely new realm this season. They haven't, it's just gotten worse. Very little makes sense, so you either have to enjoy the good parts of the show, which are a collection of excellently written, acted and produced scenes that loosely tie together in sometimes very silly ways. Or you have to just give up on it. Trying to make too much sense of it or guess what might happen next or a characters motivations based on what we've already seen, is just pointless. I'm still in the former camp as I mostly enjoy the show more than it annoys me but I did truly hate this episode. It felt rapey for rapiness sake and I loathed watching it. If there hadn't been a cliffhanger ending I might have been out and I think I'm only still in if this somehow leads to a real and lasting change for the characters. If it's a stupid reset that somehow leads to the baby being stillborn, in hiding with a nice econo-couple or spirited away by Mayday so June can go back in to the Waterfords' house as their handmaid, I'm so very, very out.

[greekmom]

On 6/22/2018 at 7:10 AM, lu1535 said:

I apologize if this was already mentioned but I've never heard of sex bringing on labor. It didn't work for me and my doctor said as long as it didn't hurt, go for it. Is it some old wives tale?

I also heard spicy food (not sure if it's a wives tale or fact) but I didn't see SJ ask Rita to serve June up something spicy.  I think they (Fred and SJ) get off on it. It's a power trip.

[WearyTraveler]

Both, SJ and Fred wanted to punish June.  SJ wanted to punish her for her obvious delight at the false labor, Fred wanted to punish her for her insinuation that he might not have as much power as he thought he did and for throwing in his face that the baby is not his.

 

But they both need a "valid" reason for their actions, so, they sit there and come up with a "valid" reason for the punishment.  They are justifying it a priori, and rationalizing their behavior because they don't want to admit to themselves that they are monsters.

[Scarlett45]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:11 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

When you were 15 were you attracted to 30 year olds?  I certainly wasn't. 

(Edited:  I didn't intend this post to be argumentative, I am just trying to show that the Gilead society is extremely abnormal in comparison to the society I am from.  It could be extremely difficult or even impossible for Nick to act 'right'.)

 

No I was not. I’ve never liked older men.  But I was not a 15yrs old girl who expected to have an arranged marriage with a man I had never set eyes on and be subservient to my husband. At 15 I certainly thought certain 30years old celebrity men were attractive/sexy. My point being that from Eden’s perspective, Nick as a husband, being nice and attentive to her (no I am not suggesting Nick have sex with a child, I mean speaking to her as a human being) would be a far more attractive life than married to an elderly man she had to play nursemaid for- which also was a possibility with this arranged marriage. 

 

I also think this is playing into our own social narrative that men are only nice to women that they are sexually attracted to- women are nice and attentive to men’s emotional needs CONSTANTLY (unfortunately) with no sexual interest on our part. I agree with @Shangrilala  

18 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Both, SJ and Fred wanted to punish June.  SJ wanted to punish her for her obvious delight at the false labor, Fred wanted to punish her for her insinuation that he might not have as much power as he thought he did and for throwing in his face that the baby is not his.

 

But they both need a "valid" reason for their actions, so, they sit there and come up with a "valid" reason for the punishment.  They are justifying it a priori, and rationalizing their behavior because they don't want to admit to themselves that they are monsters.

Yup!!!!

 

 

P.s. I also don’t think Nick is 30 in the show, more like mid 20s. He was a young guy with no purpose when Gilead rose to power 5 or so years ago, I could see him at 25 in show to Eden’s 15 (just as the actors are actually only about a decade a part in real life). 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Scarlett45

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I also heard spicy food (not sure if it's a wives tale or fact) but I didn't see SJ ask Rita to serve June up something spicy.  I think they (Fred and SJ) get off on it. It's a power trip.

Aunt Lydia said she had a recipe for a spicy tea, but June objected, saying that spicy food gives her heartburn.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

And that's where I think we are with The Handmaids Tale. There is no point in speculating whether or not Serena is on a redemption arc. She will just do whatever the writers decide for her in an individual episode regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Was Nick set up by Fred, by Isaac, by Mayday or was it a random patrol that has taken him in such a ridiculously suspicious way? It will be whatever suits the writers in the next episode where Nick pops up regardless of whether or not it makes sense for the characters to have acted that way. Will June be defiant one moment and cowed the next with little to no reasoning for the sudden change? Yup. Will Eden go from believing she is subservient to men, especially her husband, to kissing another man out of nowhere and then making demands of her husband? Yup. Will Hannah's "new father" just randomly agree to having Hannah meet her real mother for absolutely no benefit that could ever be worth that to him? Sure. Why not? None of it has to make sense. The writers don't care about making sense, just the drama within the episode.

There is a definite case of the characters serving the plot this season, but I would think that this episode proved that there is no redemption for Serena. Yes, she has traces of humanity and those are fascinating to observe, but in the end she will always be self-serving and petty, and doesn't care if she hurts other to get what she wants, in fact, she relishes it. I actually liked the writers going for it in this episode. As much as one can like inflicting torture on characters. More precisely, I appreciate that they're not shying away from Serena's malice.

[JasonCC]

Finally saw it and I definitely agree Fred AND Serena were getting off on that rape. Rape is about power, and I think Serena was getting off on the power over June for having humiliated her with the false labor....and she was getting off on the power that Fred was raping her because Serena told him to do it. There can never be even a slight redemption for Serena for me.

So much has been said here about plot-driven writing, I do think this show would benefit immensely if Hulu/the creators decided on a cap, so the writers can concentrate on a long game narrative. 3 seasons would probably suffice. 4 seasons at the most (and that would still be pushing it). 

Edited June 23, 2018 by JasonCC

[Ceindreadh]

On 22/6/2018 at 2:11 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

When you were 15 were you attracted to 30 year olds?  I certainly wasn't. 

(Edited:  I didn't intend this post to be argumentative, I am just trying to show that the Gilead society is extremely abnormal in comparison to the society I am from.  It could be extremely difficult or even impossible for Nick to act 'right'.)

The pop posters on my teenage bedroom wall would confirm that 30 years olds were definitely on my radar. (Only the ones that could sing of course!)

[ShalimarGirl]

21 hours ago, chaifan said:

I mostly agree with your post, and that Eden is also a victim of Gilead.  But, to get a little technical here, she is not a victim of rape, statutory or otherwise.  I think I get what you're trying to say - 15 years old would be statutory rape now, in the US (or at least in most jurisdictions, I think there are still some where 15 is legal).  But under Gilead laws that isn't the case.  She's in an arranged marriage, of sorts, which still occurs today even in some very civilized populations.  A bit young for our tastes, but even that's a relatively recent change in our culture.

I'm ok with Eden being a semi-villain, or at least ambiguous in that regard.  It shows that even the most innocent can bring someone down, whether intentionally or accidentally.  It actually gives her a little agency (whether she knows it or not), and makes her a more interesting character than an obedient subservient wifey wife.  But the rest of her character traits?  I agree with you, Shalimargirl, she's all over the place and none of it makes sense. 

You know, as soon as I posted that using the concept of statutory rape, I felt like I should go back and edit it out. It is a modern legal term in the real world and I have been trying my best to focus my comments only on what’s been shown or said on the show and in this episode in particular, so I probably should have left it out, but Eden didn’t have any choice or say in what happened to her so I still think it’s a grey area. The fact that someone else gave her consent, in this case I presume it was the State, is what I was trying to get at. I apologize for derailing the conversation by using a term strictly associated with age. I grew up in a place where arranged marriages are traditional, though they’re perceived to be a lot more common in the West than they really are, and I do consider it a civilized place, so thank you for acknowledging that. But just because they happen in a place I love or among populations that are considered “very civilized” doesn’t make them advantageous, enjoyable or safe for the women who are forced into them. They are very often physically, emotionally and sexually abused with little to no legal recourse because they are seen as the property of their husband (and their husband’s family) and the concept of marital rape doesn’t exist to protect them under the law. I think these things are also true in Gilead. If the writers were being faithful to what’s been established about the reign of the Sons of Jacob she would already have been dealt with harshly for failing to be an obedient wife and she would know that given that her family survived the “revolution” and have a daughter who is considered good or pure enough to be selected for marriage to an up and coming young Guardian. Her actions are more like a character in a teen drama who found out her boyfriend is cheating on her with the school sl*t and has decided to make out with the local “bad boy” to make him jealous and maybe beat him up on her say so, something we can all see will end in disaster from a mile away. 

As I’ve said, I think we already have plenty of female villains and I’m sad that they’ve created one so young who found herself in such an untenable situation through no fault or choice of her own and I’ve been bothered by how many people want to see Eden drowned or strung up on the wall. On the other hand, history and literature is rife with examples of ”innocent” young women pointing fingers and bearing false witness against each other in order to secure their own place, deflect guilt and inflict punishment on other young women. If this was 17th century Salem and she was accusing June of witchcraft I probably wouldn’t bat an eye, at least not if her character was developed and her actions were consistent with time and place. I don’t see that with Eden which frustrates me. Like Jessica Rabbit - she’s not bad, she’s just (written) that way. And as so many others have said, I’m really disappointed with the general lack of character development and world building this season. 

I’m also just getting really sad and angry at RapeTV and it’s not just this show, it’s everywhere. 

[whoknowswho]

On 6/21/2018 at 10:59 AM, DuckyinKy said:

And he appears young, so these older guys like Waterford HAS to be worried that this new younger generation might not be sterile or barren. It's like "YOU GET A HANDMAID and YOU GET A HANDMAID, but not you, you have your own thing evidently......BUT YOU GET A HANDMAID! 

I thought I saw a shot into the ground but I didn't see Nick shot, just knocked out. That house is empty, there is no one suppose to be there, as the patrol guardians asked what Nick was doing there, as soon as Nick said he was checking on the commander's house, I knew he was lying. They did too. They took his keys and his vehicle so no one will know June is even there. 

I've watched the episode twice, you are correct. No Nick wasn't shot, don't know why people think he was. The shot went into the ground.

[bijoux]

@ShalimarGirl, have you encountered people who actually wish for Eden to die here or elsewhere? Because I really don't have the impression that I've read things like that here. Speculation, yes, because this is Gilead, the land of very bad, no good endings. Particularly for side characters. But wishing for it, not really.

She is a threat, but I don't think that makes her villainous. I didn't really get the impression that the writing is trying to cast her in that light either.