S02.E09: Vanishing Point

[TobinAlbers]

12 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Arnold created Dolores and Teddy, plus the other bodies in his lab were white (in Teddy's flashback of his creation).  Plus the bots attending Arnold murder suicide were mostly white (IIRC). 
Ake and Maeve were Ford's creation (ie. I created you... lines).

Yeah, I got the feeling that Dolores was Arnold's daughter (and favorite) given how much time we see them spend together and his investment in her development. It went beyond that of a programmer and his program as Ford warns Arnold that he can't keep protecting Dolores when Ford wanted her to be the host to meet with Ford. He says that Arnold is too attached.

The nice reveal in this episode is that for Ford also grew to become attached to his creations and that Maeve was what he considered to be his child in a familial way rather than the general, I created you. Looking at her personality and how she sees the world, yeah, I can see reflections of Ford as well. He gave her more of himself like Arnold gave Dolores more of himself.

However, something to consider, in seeing these favored children of these gods wasn't The Morningstar the most favored child of God before he rebelled and fell? Is Dolores playing that role or Maeve or are they both?

The other thing to note is that back when we have the reveal of Ford taking over Bernard and we see Ford leaning against the red wall at HQ, there is some play of the reflections where Ford appears to be looking at himself and is a play on Delosbot's summation that there are two gods one looking up and one looking down but there only being one who is laughing at his reflection/at himself. The red coloring of the wall just reenforces the idea of hell and so the devil so...is Ford the devil or was he just the devil in this instance?

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, AEMom said:

I was wondering the very same thing, and the answer to that really does skew whether or not Teddy chose to let him go and whether or not the Ghost nation people have more control than other hosts.

I think that was Teddy overcoming his own upgrade. Ghost Nation patrol would surely have disarmed Dolores's party if they were able? 

We saw Bernard also fool a company scanner, at the doorway to the lab where he and Charlotte took refuge (at the beginning of the season, and just after the massacre). Nonetheless I still think WIlliam is mostly human. Though he may be transitioning slowly, in a year-to-year process that keeps his inner organs, bones and musculature youthful, while his skin continues to age. He's been waiting to see the consciousness transfer achieved in the James Delos test subject, before taking the plunge himself -- while still alive, I think. And he knows he's running out of time. 

[Broderbits]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Shit like this on this show really gets annoying. As someone with an underutilized English degree I can appreciate a literary allusion as much as the next guy, but this show is a real tryhard this way. 

This show actually has several things in common with East of Eden: difficult fathers, human monsters, love as a redemptive power, and of course the obvious reference to eviction from The Garden. Seems like a natural allusion to me.

[marieYOTZ]

My deep thought: While it’s definitely rude to throw any present away, a musical jewelry box with a spinning ballerina inside is a pretty terrible gift for a 16 year old, engraved or not. 

[Law Mom]

Speaking of the jewelry box, if Juliet placed the card inside right before she killed herself, and Emily said her mother left the card for her, wouldn't she have known that the jewelry box wasn't thrown away? Hmm...

[Chicago Redshirt]

So looking at a couple of the screen caps from the recap, I'm going to come down on the side that MiB is a host rather than a human as well.

Point 1: The scan of MiB shows that he is "clear" of C-4. In other words, he does not have the explosive that would blow him up real good like most hosts in his infrastructure. That is relatively meaningless as to whether he is a host or not. We know from Maeve that hosts can be built without it. 

Point 2: The screenshot of MiB's profile has him listed as "Subject Number 002." There's no way the human version of MiB would have been listed as Subject Number 002 for just about anything. He wasn't the second person to have gone to the park. Both Logan and Juliet had been there before him, along with assorted other people. But he easily could be, after James Delos, the second person that was given the immortalizing-by-host treatment.

[DarkRaichu]

- The Emily that talked with MiB in the park seemed to be the real Emily.  She had way too many detailed personal references, like the gift of music box from her mom for her 16th birthday that she immediately threw out.  We saw her mom put MiB's profile card into the music box (suggesting the mom took the music box out of the trash can).
Unless my speculation pans out then it really does not matter ;P

- I liked that Emily immediately took off her hat when MiB told her the scanners were imbedded in the hats.  But then she put her hat back on. I would have kept the hat off.

- Ghost Nation were able to kill the last 4 of Dolores' goons without the element of surprise. I guess the goons were susceptible to close combat? I thought the goons did not feel pain? How did that work????

- Is MiB a bot or a human who thinks he is a bot??

Spoiler

I think he is a bot disguised as human who just figures out that he is actually a bot

- Thandie Newton's acting has been great.  To be able to convey various emotions when silently lying on a bed is not a small matter

- So who is building the railroad using bots' bodies (in ep 6 or 7)?  Ake and Ghost Nation seem to favor horses and walking, Dolores & MiB ride horses, Bernard (and most likely QA team) drive the buggy.  Is there a different player we have not seen???

Edited June 18, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

Speaking of the jewelry box, if Juliet placed the card inside right before she killed herself, and Emily said her mother left the card for her, wouldn't she have known that the jewelry box wasn't thrown away? Hmm...

There could have been a number of ways that the profile card got from the jewelry box to Emily without Emily knowing where it came from. Or someone could have arranged for Emily to have gotten a fresh copy of the profile card. Or Emily did know that the profile card came from the jewelry box, that the box hadn't been thrown away, and she was trying to test MiB to see if he knew about it. If Emily was a host, she could even have been programmed to have a blank profile card as part of Ford's continued mind-frak of MiB.

I wonder: are we to think that Ford gave the profile card to MiB with some intent to cause domestic chaos, even Juliet's suicide?

6 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

- The Emily that talked with MiB in the park seemed to be the real Emily.  She had way too many detailed personal references, like the gift of music box from her mom for her 16th birthday that she immediately threw out.  We saw her mom put MiB's profile card into the music box (suggesting the mom took the music box out of the trash can).
Unless my speculation pans out and it really does not matter ;P

- I liked that Emily immediately took off her hat when MiB told her the scanners were imbedded in the hats.  But then she put her hat back on. I would have kept the hat off.

All bets are off in terms of the personal references if real Emily has been in the park relatively recently, since Ford/potential builder would have had access to her memories among all the rest of the bio-data. And even if she hadn't been in the park at all, Ford/potential builder could use MiB's memories of Emily to come up with endless references that would seem to make sense to him and be reminiscent of actual Emily.

[dgpolo]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Point 2: The screenshot of MiB's profile has him listed as "Subject Number 002." There's no way the human version of MiB would have been listed as Subject Number 002 for just about anything. He wasn't the second person to have gone to the park. Both Logan and Juliet had been there before him, along with assorted other people. But he easily could be, after James Delos, the second person that was given the immortalizing-by-host treatment.

Or, as he is identified as 'the boss' he was the #2 boss after James Delos.

[The Companion]

18 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So looking at a couple of the screen caps from the recap, I'm going to come down on the side that MiB is a host rather than a human as well.

Point 1: The scan of MiB shows that he is "clear" of C-4. In other words, he does not have the explosive that would blow him up real good like most hosts in his infrastructure. That is relatively meaningless as to whether he is a host or not. We know from Maeve that hosts can be built without it. 

Point 2: The screenshot of MiB's profile has him listed as "Subject Number 002." There's no way the human version of MiB would have been listed as Subject Number 002 for just about anything. He wasn't the second person to have gone to the park. Both Logan and Juliet had been there before him, along with assorted other people. But he easily could be, after James Delos, the second person that was given the immortalizing-by-host treatment.

I don't think the Subject Number 002 thing really tells us much. While others had been in the park, he might have been the second subject because they weren't tracking people and trying to recreate them until Delos took over. So his father-in-law was Subject Number 001 because there was an intent to re-create him initially. William likely would have set himself up next, to allow himself to be recreated down the road at some point. He was the second person to get the full scan treatment, because he and his father-in-law were the ones who started that program. 

[Ellaria]

29 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Point 2: The screenshot of MiB's profile has him listed as "Subject Number 002." There's no way the human version of MiB would have been listed as Subject Number 002 for just about anything. He wasn't the second person to have gone to the park. Both Logan and Juliet had been there before him, along with assorted other people. But he easily could be, after James Delos, the second person that was given the immortalizing-by-host treatment.

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I don't think the Subject Number 002 thing really tells us much. While others had been in the park, he might have been the second subject because they weren't tracking people and trying to recreate them until Delos took over. So his father-in-law was Subject Number 001 because there was an intent to re-create him initially. William likely would have set himself up next, to allow himself to be recreated down the road at some point. He was the second person to get the full scan treatment, because he and his father-in-law were the ones who started that program. 

Why can't Logan be "Subject Number 001?" We know that Logan was there before William. Are we sure that this designation refers to the immortalizing by host treatment?

[The Companion]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Why can't Logan be "Subject Number 001?" We know that Logan was there before William. Are we sure that this designation refers to the immortalizing by host treatment?

To clarify, I don't think the subject number means they have been replaced. I think it is the designation within The Forge. I am admittedly speculating based on the screen, which gives a subject number, personality type and other data gathered about the particular person. That indicates to me that it is basically the file number within The Forge. I don't know that Logan was actually ever "forged." William didn't propose collecting the data until after he visited with Logan. His info wouldn't have been gathered and backed up unless he returned to Westworld. Possible but not probable based on his state at the subsequent party.

[LittleIggy]

Glad Teddy told Dolorous that she/they had become as bad as the humans. Poor Teddy.

[Ellaria]

20 minutes ago, The Companion said:

To clarify, I don't think the subject number means they have been replaced. I think it is the designation within The Forge. I am admittedly speculating based on the screen, which gives a subject number, personality type and other data gathered about the particular person. That indicates to me that it is basically the file number within The Forge. I don't know that Logan was actually ever "forged." William didn't propose collecting the data until after he visited with Logan. His info wouldn't have been gathered and backed up unless he returned to Westworld. Possible but not probable based on his state at the subsequent party.

Thanks and I agree; I don't think that the subject number means that they have been replaced. And I also agree that it is probably a designation in The Forge.

While I too would question why Logan would ever return to the park after William sent him off on the horse, I think that he did. 

Spoiler

In the preview for next week, don't we see Logan with Bernard and Dolores in what appears to be The Forge? If so, that would mean that he was forged or imprinted. I imagine that Logan may have been compelled to return to the park once William & James agreed to their plan of copying guest data. After all, he was at that party celebrating James' retirement. He was aware of their plans and how destructive those plans could be. That tells me that he was at least somewhat involved in Delos business at that time...but probably not for much longer.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[DarkRaichu]

Speaking of Teddy, IIRC his body they found in the lake did not have bullet wound on its right temple from self afflicting gunshot.  Not sure what the significant of this, if any :P

[Abernathy]

Ppl, it's Dolores , D-O-L-O-R-E-S !!!!!

 

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

 

 

Now, let's kill Charlotte!

[mjc570]

3 minutes ago, Abernathy said:

Ppl, it's Dolores , D-O-L-O-R-E-S !!!!!

 

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

 

 

Now, let's kill Charlotte!

Just curious:  Is your first name Peter?

[WaltersHair]

I am uneasy with Ford telling Maeve she is his daughter. Who wants his child to be a Madam in brothel for untold number of years. Feels like an afterthought on the writer's part.

[Rumsy4]

18 minutes ago, Abernathy said:

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

Is it really that big a deal? lol

[Notwisconsin]

This is the interwebs, correct spelling is optional.

[Athena]

25 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

I am uneasy with Ford telling Maeve she is his daughter. Who wants his child to be a Madam in brothel for untold number of years. Feels like an afterthought on the writer's part.

William killed Maeve and her daughter about one year before S1/S2. He did this after Juliet killed herself. Most likely Ford wanted to return her to the park temporarily because he probably was already writing his and her final narratives. As others have mentioned, as the madam, she was not necessarily always prostituting herself. It's not great but Ford still has a warped world view, but this was probably one of the few narratives he could get her in until he did his grand finale. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Athena

[WaltersHair]

Quote

William killed Maeve and her daughter about one year before S1/S2. He did this after Juliet killed herself. Most likely Ford wanted to return her to the park temporarily because he probably was already writing his and her final narratives. As others have mentioned, as the madam, she was not necessarily always prostituting herself. It's not great but Ford still has a warped world view/

I'm aware of all that, but still don't like it. Maeve was going to be decommissioned because the guests weren't sleeping with her. It was Elsie who saved her (a good human who seems to have a soft spot for the hosts)

[Pallas]

The profile most likely contained information about the The Project. That would tend to make James Delos Subject #1 and William, Subject #2.

Maybe it went like this. On the eve of her involuntary confinement, Juliet read William's profile and learned about The Project: the one with her supposedly fully-dead father, and supposedly fully-human husband. What she saw confirmed to her that she was living in the wrong world. That same profile is also where Emily could have learned about The Project; perhaps, as she said, it sent her to the park to find her father, after a quick sojourn in Raj World during the gala. 

If she did. But if this Emily is a bot, she only has to believe that she found the info on William's profile. For William to finally believe her -- to believe that he killed her -- he only has to know that his profile contained it. Her ability to track him and even, her propensity to rescue him, could be standard programming. And her not being human could explain how William and his gang were able to sneak away from her that night: Emily was in sleep mode.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Pallas

[Rumsy4]

I see William as someone who got so immersed in a video game that the real world became less real to him. We read of people who have actually died becasue they didn't eat for three days straight while playing some game. The WHO literally just classified video game addiction as a disorder. It is characterized by "impaired control over gaming, increasing priority given to gaming over other activities to the extent that gaming takes precedence over other interests and daily activities, and continuation or escalation of gaming despite the occurrence of negative consequences.

For gaming disorder to be diagnosed, the behaviour pattern must be of sufficient severity to result in significant impairment in personal, family, social, educational, occupational or other important areas of functioning and would normally have been evident for at least 12 months."

MiB's behavior fits this pattern. He got so immersed in the gaming experience, he lost the ability to distinguish what was real and what was not, becasue the "real" stuff was presented in the context of the game setting. I think his daughter was foolhardy in thinking that she could get the better of her father in the place where William has been coming to for decades. She underestimated the extent to which her father had become immersed in the game world. 

This tale is the tragedy of someone who lost everything that was of value to him becasue of an addiction. It's not a complex morality tale the show is trying to present it as (if that's what they're doing).

Edited June 18, 2018 by Rumsy4

[LittleIggy]

1 hour ago, Abernathy said:

Ppl, it's Dolores , D-O-L-O-R-E-S !!!!!

 

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

 

 

Now, let's kill Charlotte!

Hello! I posted last week that I would purposely be spelling her name “Dolorous.” Calm down.

[piequinn35]

1 hour ago, Abernathy said:

Ppl, it's Dolores , D-O-L-O-R-E-S !!!!!

 

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

 

 

Now, let's kill Charlotte!

Why do you want to kill Charlotte? because of what she did to you? :)

[Head-Full-Of-Thi]

REALLY SHOW??? MY TEDDY IS DEAD AND WILLIAM GETS TO LIVE??? My only solace is that Bernard finally took some agency and deleted Ford out of his mind to become the kickass hero that he is (you know... Until he's found on the beach and revealed to be a host and gets tortured by Charlotte...) and THANK GOD Elsie is alright!!! I think she's alive at the beach timeline and they're just not showing her so we wouldn't know if she made it or not.

Yes I know that we knew Teddy was dead ever since the first episode of the season but I thought he was host dead, like he could be restarted, this looks like not coming back from dead. Does that mean James Marsden is out of the show? Will I have to sit there and watch one or more seasons of Westworld without Teddy??? WTF???

Also "I'm not a host pretending to be human I'm your daughter pretending to care about you" is such a strong line omg

And I know it was only a little detail but the hats being brain scanners!! That's a classic Westworld plot twist I never saw it coming.

[Notwisconsin]

1 hour ago, Athena said:

MIB killed Maeve and her daughter about one year before S1/S2.

No. IT was about eight or ten years before S1.

[capt planet]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There could have been a number of ways that the profile card got from the jewelry box to Emily without Emily knowing where it came from. Or someone could have arranged for Emily to have gotten a fresh copy of the profile card. Or Emily did know that the profile card came from the jewelry box, that the box hadn't been thrown away, and she was trying to test MiB to see if he knew about it. If Emily was a host, she could even have been programmed to have a blank profile card as part of Ford's continued mind-frak of MiB.

Didn't Emily say the mom showed her the card?

[piequinn35]

2 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

No. IT was about eight or ten years before S1.

Source?

I thought it was also 1 year ago.

[Dame sans merci]

4 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Source?

I thought it was also 1 year ago.

You're right, it was a year.

[Seppuku]

Soooooo.... MiB thinks so much of his WW profile as to decide based on it that his daughter is a host (and thus kills her), yet he seemingly never checked or looked for it since the death of his wife, or else he would have realized it was gone.  That is a huge sell

[Haleth]

57 minutes ago, Luka1997 said:

 

Yes I know that we knew Teddy was dead ever since the first episode of the season but I thought he was host dead, like he could be restarted, this looks like not coming back from dead. Does that mean James Marsden is out of the show? Will I have to sit there and watch one or more seasons of Westworld without Teddy??? WTF???

We saw Ford get his brains blown out too and he's still with us. There are always flashbacks. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

No. IT was about eight or ten years before S1.

MiB killed Maeve's daughter after his wife committed suicide. It was a year before the season 1 stuff, not eight years.

[Ottis]

What was with the intense, loud, drown out everything music after Teddy killed him self? Did Christopher Nolan direct? Seemed overdone. 

So MIB’s entire back story is that he is an asshole human. Well, this show is consistent. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

48 minutes ago, Seppuku said:

Soooooo.... MiB thinks so much of his WW profile as to decide based on it that his daughter is a host (and thus kills her), yet he seemingly never checked or looked for it since the death of his wife, or else he would have realized it was gone.  That is a huge sell

We don't know how (or really, even if) MiB's WW profile got from the music box to Emily's hands. We also don't know if MiB ever bothered to go back to Slaughterhouse 5 and retrieve the profile. 

Also MiB came to the conclusion that Emily was a host based on a bunch of factors

1. It's highly coincidental that Emily found MiB in the first instance.

2. It's even more highly coincidental that Emily found him again after he ditched her. Like he said, it's a big park

3. Emily was acting like the Project was a rad thing that she could get behind (whereas "real Emily" would oppose it)

4. Emily was very much like "let's let bygones be bygones" (whereas "real Emily" was still furious at MiB for supposedly causing Juliet's suicide)

5. "Real Emily" would not have any way of knowing about MiB's profile, MiB thinks. 

6. Ford has deliberately put allies and obstacles in MiB's path during this last game

MiB is right about 1, 2 and 6 But weirder coincidences have happened.

Emily implied that she was pretending the Project was cool and acting like forgiveness was on her mind as a means to an end. Which could be the case. Or could be Host!Emily covering up for her mistake. 

We know -- but MiB probably doesn't -- that Juliet had listened to him, knew where he put the profile chip, took it out and left it somewhere else. That there was a way for real Emily to eventually get ahold of it.

[Seppuku]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We don't know how (or really, even if) MiB's WW profile got from the music box to Emily's hands. We also don't know if MiB ever bothered to go back to Slaughterhouse 5 and retrieve the profile. 

Also MiB came to the conclusion that Emily was a host based on a bunch of factors

1. It's highly coincidental that Emily found MiB in the first instance.

2. It's even more highly coincidental that Emily found him again after he ditched her. Like he said, it's a big park

3. Emily was acting like the Project was a rad thing that she could get behind (whereas "real Emily" would oppose it)

4. Emily was very much like "let's let bygones be bygones" (whereas "real Emily" was still furious at MiB for supposedly causing Juliet's suicide)

5. "Real Emily" would not have any way of knowing about MiB's profile, MiB thinks. 

6. Ford has deliberately put allies and obstacles in MiB's path during this last game

MiB is right about 1, 2 and 6 But weirder coincidences have happened.

Emily implied that she was pretending the Project was cool and acting like forgiveness was on her mind as a means to an end. Which could be the case. Or could be Host!Emily covering up for her mistake. 

We know -- but MiB probably doesn't -- that Juliet had listened to him, knew where he put the profile chip, took it out and left it somewhere else. That there was a way for real Emily to eventually get ahold of it.

 

The issue is not how the profile card got to the daughter; it is the fact MiB did not even know it was gone/taken (otherwise he wouldn’t quickly dismiss her saying she has it, regardless of how she got it).  This is clearly illustrated in him getting unsettled when he saw the card in her hand.  

 

I’m not even debating whether she’s human or host.  All I’m saying is that it is not believable that he’s value his profile card so much, yet (seemingly) check for it in over a year since the wife’s death

[WaltersHair]

Are the cards themselves all that unique? Storage is storage. Couldn't Ford have just 'burned' another one?

[meep.meep]

4 hours ago, Law Mom said:

Speaking of the jewelry box, if Juliet placed the card inside right before she killed herself, and Emily said her mother left the card for her, wouldn't she have known that the jewelry box wasn't thrown away? Hmm...

 

1 hour ago, capt planet said:

Didn't Emily say the mom showed her the card?

Juliet gave a music box to her daughter for her 16th birthday.  Emily threw it away, felt bad, went to retrieve it, but it was gone.

Several years later (5? 6? ish), Juliet, William, and Emily go to the party.  William gets the card from Ford.  Juliet gets drunk, they go home, William puts her to bed, then he puts the card in the book.  But Juliet is not asleep, gets up, opens the book to see what he put there, gets the card, and puts it in the music box which is closed up in a drawer.  Then she commits suicide in the bathtub.

When MIB and Emily meet up in Westworld, in their discussion she says she got his profile card from her mother.  Presumably after her mother died, they went through her things, found the music box, and since it had her name engraved on it, she ended up with it.  William wouldn't bother to open up a music box.  That's how Emily ended up with the profile card in Westworld.

 

What interests me a lot more is the discussion that MIB and Emily had where he said that her mother didn't like the elephants, and the discussion with the hosts about how elephants are restrained when they are young, and then won't go against their training.

[dgpolo]

5 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Presumably after her mother died, they went through her things, found the music box, and since it had her name engraved on it, she ended up with it.

I think the point someone upthread was making was, since Emily ended up with the jewelry box (not music box) why, in her story to her father did she not end up saying something like 'and guess what, it wasn't really thrown away, Mom kept it and now I have it again' ?

[piequinn35]

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/06/westworld-is-william-a-host-is-emily-dead-is-teddy-dead-vanishing-point-katja-herbers

I'd rather kill MIB than Charlotte.

[Dobian]

Catching up on this a day late.  Damn, two of the most intense scenes of the season in one episode.  Both William and Dolores are totally broken now, each in their own way.  Anthony Hopkins was at his enigmatic best.  Ford's scene with Maeve was priceless.  The whole episode was filled with incredibly well written dialogue and character building scenes.  That's two episodes in a row where Westworld really hit one out of the park.  Hope they keep the momentum in the finale.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Dobian

[FishyJoe]

21 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

How does a bot have a baby?

Maybe they went to a (fake?) fertility clinic when they couldn't conceive the 'natural' way.

Or the more icky way is that they put real sperm into the bot and released it at that time.

[MJ Frog]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

True but it still means he was subjecting Maeve to potential abuse and degradation by guests, especially back in the Old West days. I would think he'd have wanted better for her.

Ford confounds me. I have absolutely no idea where he stands. How could any good father not only allow, but engineer, the kind of suffering the hosts have endured? I have said it before -- the parks are an abomination. I mean, what sort of creator would afflict his children so?

Well, I mean there's THAT one, but...

[The Companion]

4 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Glad Teddy told Dolorous that she/they had become as bad as the humans. Poor Teddy.

I guess what Dolores became was more than Teddy could bear. 

Sorry, not sorry.

[Dobian]

16 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Ford confounds me. I have absolutely no idea where he stands. How could any good father not only allow, but engineer, the kind of suffering the hosts have endured? I have said it before -- the parks are an abomination. I mean, what sort of creator would afflict his children so?

I think it has to do with his end game.  His goal, which he mentioned in the episode, is the survival and proliferation of a new species.  Delos' goal was always the marketing of immortality for profit.  Ford's goal was much loftier, the creation of a master race.  The suffering the hosts endure is part of that growing process before they are unleashed on the world.

[WatchrTina]

7 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I can see reflections of Ford as well. He gave [Maeve] more of himself like Arnold gave Dolores more of himself.

I kind of hate  the idea that Arnold gave Dolores elements of himself, given how she's turned out.  But perhaps her strong, ruthless, murderous side is all coming from when Arnold merged Wyatt into her programming and Arnold's original influence on her is visible mainly when we see her heart breaking for her father.

Edited June 19, 2018 by WatchrTina

[dr pepper]

8 hours ago, meep.meep said:

It better have a donkey wheel .......

Nah, they'd have to go to Roman Dominated Egypt World to find that.

6 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

My deep thought: While it’s definitely rude to throw any present away, a musical jewelry box with a spinning ballerina inside is a pretty terrible gift for a 16 year old, engraved or not. 

Yeah, it's more a present for an 8 to 12 year old.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Seppuku said:

 

The issue is not how the profile card got to the daughter; it is the fact MiB did not even know it was gone/taken (otherwise he wouldn’t quickly dismiss her saying she has it, regardless of how she got it).  This is clearly illustrated in him getting unsettled when he saw the card in her hand.  

 

I’m not even debating whether she’s human or host.  All I’m saying is that it is not believable that he’s value his profile card so much, yet (seemingly) check for it in over a year since the wife’s death

Well, there are two primary ways that  MiB might not know that the card was gone

1. He never checked the book he hid it in. 

2. Someone replaced the card (or a duplicate of the card) where he hid it before he checked it.

There is no particular reason to think MiB places any value on the card itself or its contents. If he did, he probably would find a more secure hiding place than inside a book. He's been going to Westworld for 30 years or so. He knows what he's done, and he knows who he is. He doesn't particularly need a profile to show him what he knows. 

[dr pepper]

5 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Why can't Logan be "Subject Number 001?" We know that Logan was there before William. Are we sure that this designation refers to the immortalizing by host treatment?

That would be a twist. MIB sprawled on the ground, brooding. A rider approaches from the distance. It's young Logan. He asks MIB if he enjoyed the fruits of his coup.