Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Terese said:

The guy was a vampire when he killed his family. Not the same thing.

Sure it is.  If you're not going to cut Alex any slack for being raised by vamps, you can't cut him any for actually being a vamp.  He had been human 15 minutes earlier. He knew killing was wrong.  He could have just chosen to starve to death.

 

17 minutes ago, Terese said:

gain, had she been portrayed as weak or submissive, or with PTSD, and had not been throwing jabs back at Claire, or not demanding this and that,  or not adjusting well in school, or not having a cold-hearted look on her face when delivering her victim...then I could say her life, mind, heart and soul were subverted and hold her completely innocent. They showed us quite the opposite.

She begged the deputy not to leave her alone. She was scared when Caleb came to get her.  She spent her first year of school being a loner smoking pot under the bleachers.  How do you know what her "cold-hearted look" meant?  Did it mean she didn't care?  Did it mean she was resigned?  Did it mean she just wanted to leave the area before the feasting began?  And what exactly was she demanding?  

[Terese]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sure it is.  If you're not going to cut Alex any slack for being raised by vamps, you can't cut him any for actually being a vamp.  He had been human 15 minutes earlier. He knew killing was wrong.  He could have just chosen to starve to death.

 

She begged the deputy not to leave her alone. She was scared when Caleb came to get her.  She spent her first year of school being a loner smoking pot under the bleachers.  How do you know what her "cold-hearted look" meant?  Did it mean she didn't care?  Did it mean she was resigned?  Did it mean she just wanted to leave the area before the feasting began?  And what exactly was she demanding?  

I didn't give the vampire a pass, I simply said it is not the same thing. Though, it doesn't make him any less guilty than Alex. Alex luring people to their deaths has an exponentially cumulative affect, is my point. More and more innocent people are killed.

I am also pointing out that in my opinion, the writers did not paint her in a very sympathetic light. Tragic, horrible, certainly unfair, but not quite sympathetic.

[Bergamot]

I loved Alex as a character! Of all the teenagers the writers tried to foist on us -- Claire, Patience, Kaia -- she was the only one whose story really worked for me. And I thought she was well acted too.

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think she was 16, so she'd been with them since she was 8.  She was brought up to do this.

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

  Quote

MAMA

You thought what? That I'd hurt you? Kill you? I would never hurt you. Not my baby girl, not my sweet Alex. How could you even think that? Baby, why did you do it? Why did you run from us?

ALEX

I love you, mama. I do. I just – I couldn't take it anymore. The blood and the death, the sounds of their screams. I just... I can't do it anymore. And the way I feel afterwards, the guilt...I'd rather die than feel that way again.

This scene where she confronts her vampire "mother" is so chilling,  where her "mama" tries to use her twisted version of "love" to get Alex back under her control. "Mama" calls her "my baby girl", claims that she loves Alex and would never hurt her. Yet she is a monster who kidnapped Alex when she was just a little girl, and she and the other vampires used this helpless child for years, horribly, as bait and as a feeding bag.

Alex's whole life during that time was a twisted horror story. Yet in spite of what this must have done to her psychologically, she found the strength to survive and break free, and ultimately reject her "mama"'s final attempt to control her forever.

And my favorite part of the episode was the way that Jody, who had suffered through her own horror story, was there to help. When Jody told Alex, "Whatever you want from me, I'll give it... I'm here" - it brought tears to my eyes. Two broken people bonding together, helping each other to survive the supernatural evil that ruined their lives and tried to use them in horrible ways, two people who then try to help others who face the same fate. In a way it is a mirror of Dean and Sam's story.

And I liked that we saw in a later episodes how Alex, although she was still struggling with the guilt and trauma caused by her childhood, was able to do something positive with her life, forming a family with Jody and Clair, and eventually deciding as well to devote her life to saving people -- not by choosing to be a hunter, but by training to be a nurse.

[Terese]

5 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I loved Alex as a character! Of all the teenagers the writers tried to foist on us -- Claire, Patience, Kaia -- she was the only one whose story really worked for me. And I thought she was well acted too.

 

This scene where she confronts her vampire "mother" is so chilling,  where her "mama" tries to use her twisted version of "love" to get Alex back under her control. "Mama" calls her "my baby girl", claims that she loves Alex and would never hurt her. Yet she is a monster who kidnapped Alex when she was just a little girl, and she and the other vampires used this helpless child for years, horribly, as bait and as a feeding bag.

Alex's whole life during that time was a twisted horror story. Yet in spite of what this must have done to her psychologically, she found the strength to survive and break free, and ultimately reject her "mama"'s final attempt to control her forever.

And my favorite part of the episode was the way that Jody, who had suffered through her own horror story, was there to help. When Jody told Alex, "Whatever you want from me, I'll give it... I'm here" - it brought tears to my eyes. Two broken people bonding together, helping each other to survive the supernatural evil that ruined their lives and tried to use them in horrible ways, two people who then try to help others who face the same fate. In a way it is a mirror of Dean and Sam's story.

And I liked that we saw in a later episodes how Alex, although she was still struggling with the guilt and trauma caused by her childhood, was able to do something positive with her life, forming a family with Jody and Clair, and eventually deciding as well to devote her life to saving people -- not by choosing to be a hunter, but by training to be a nurse.

That is a lovely tribute to Alex (and Jody) I will have to rewatch that episode. It has been many years since I have seen it. The one I draw from is from season 10 Don't Forget About Us, that I have rewatched more recently, where I find her ummm, hard.

[Bergamot]

I didn't care as much for the "Don't You Forget About Me" episode, not like I did "Alex Annie Alexis Ann". For one thing, too much Claire, who always got on my nerves. Also not a very good plot. But I do remember how Alex tried to confess to her boyfriend Henry, before she found out that he was actually a vampire, about the terrible things she had done in the past. It is an echo of the last scene in "Alex Annie Alexis Ann", where she painfully tries to tell Jody, "I've done things", and expresses her feelings of shame.

I think Alex would agree completely with anyone who thought that she did terrible things and should have chosen not to do those things. But that's part of why I like her. She does not try to make excuses for herself; she accepts her guilt and wants to atone for what she did. But even though Alex may not excuse herself because she was victimized when she was just a child and basically brainwashed and controlled, that doesn't mean that she wasn't.  And I think she deserves credit for overcoming what was done to her, and that's why I see her as a good person who was victimized by a supernatural evil.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Bergamot

[Scout Finch]

I'm up to the first few episodes of S13 and it's become increasingly necessary for me to know if I will be free of Mark Pellegrino anytime soon. Haven't liked Lucifer from the beginning but given that this season seems to be about his son, I'm afraid he'll be around for a while. It took several seasons before I started to appreciate Mark Shepherd and his Crowley but my chronic dislike of Mark P.'s character has only magnified through the seasons, and it's gotten to the point where I can't even stand to look at him. The constant smugness and condescension is so one-note and tiresome, and I've never found him the least bit amusing. I just want to wipe the permanent smirk off his face!

Hoping to get completely caught up with the series by October 8th!

Edited September 19, 2020 by Scout Finch

[bethy]

5 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

I'm up to the first few episodes of S13 and it's become increasingly necessary for me to know if I will be free of Mark Pellegrino anytime soon.

Spoiler

I have disappointing news for you.... 

 

[trudysmom]

Scout Finch, I have to say I agree, but my dislike came over time.  And I blame the writers much as Mark for how he was written, snarky and petulant at times.  He's supposed to be the baddest bad of all bads and he's whining like a little kid.  And I know this is probably a really unpopular opinion but I HATED Cas as Lucifer.  I hated that Misha chose to imitate Pellegrino's mannerisms.  Rick Springfield didn't do that and he was very effective, in my opinion, as Lucifer.  Misha  just made it look like a parody of the character, and it was  one  of the 2 times that I was disappointed in his acting choices.  The other was 

Spoiler

his portrayal of AU Cas, ugh that was bad. 

 

[ukgirl71]

Is it wrong that I wish we’d had Tom Ellis instead of Mark Pellegrino 👿?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

Scout Finch, I have to say I agree, but my dislike came over time.  And I blame the writers much as Mark for how he was written, snarky and petulant at times.  He's supposed to be the baddest bad of all bads and he's whining like a little kid.  And I know this is probably a really unpopular opinion but I HATED Cas as Lucifer.  I hated that Misha chose to imitate Pellegrino's mannerisms.  Rick Springfield didn't do that and he was very effective, in my opinion, as Lucifer.  Misha  just made it look like a parody of the character, and it was  one  of the 2 times that I was disappointed in his acting choices.  The other was 

  Reveal spoiler

his portrayal of AU Cas, ugh that was bad. 

 

I didn't mind Pellegrino when he first showed up, and thought he was very effective--chilling and controlled.  But that only lasted as long as Swan Song.  Once he came back, the petulance took over and therefore he became nothing so much as a whiny child with too much power, which may be threatening but is not a very 3-D character.  I blame the writers for that, but Mark did seem to enjoy it.

I also didn't mind Misha imitating Pellegrino's mannerisms, because when someone is possessed, the demon character takes over and overrides the victim, so Lucifer's character (such as it is) should be the one seen.  (When you have different actors playing the same character, that's traditionally how you know who's who).   What I disliked is how Misha hammed it up,  making him, as you said, into a "parody" of the character.  IMO, he also played any other characters (and there were a few) way over the top and hammy.  Maybe Misha gets bored with straightforward and earnest Cas and decides to have fun when he's in other characters.  But it always breaks me out of the story, especially when they're supposed to be dangerous or threatening.

 

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, trudysmom said:

And I know this is probably a really unpopular opinion but I HATED Cas as Lucifer.  I hated that Misha chose to imitate Pellegrino's mannerisms.  Rick Springfield didn't do that and he was very effective, in my opinion, as Lucifer.  Misha  just made it look like a parody of the character, and it was  one  of the 2 times that I was disappointed in his acting choices.  The other was 

  Reveal spoiler

his portrayal of AU Cas, ugh that was bad. 

 

Is it that unpopular an opinion? Well, I'm with you, I despised the whole Cas as Luci shtick, thought it was some of the worst acting Misha ever did - that and anytime the writers wanted him to do an accent. For the latter I'm convinced they knew he was terrible with accents, and just threw them in because it made them giggle.

I also agree that Springfield's short duration as Luci was decent, probably more entertaining than Pellegrino's increasingly one-note take over the years. The only time Pellegrino's Luci really came off scary and threatening IMO was in Hammer of the Gods, when he's walking down the hall slaughtering all the gods. Now that was on point.

Edited September 19, 2020 by PAForrest

[S Cook Productions]

I’m sure this is an UO, and I hope it doesn’t flag the FBI or my church as labeling me a satanist or anything; but for the most part I’ve enjoyed just about every incarnation of Lucifer lol. I know that’s weird. I guess I just like the character. I enjoy Mark P’s portrayal, especially Hallucifer; I loved Casifer, I really liked Sam!Luci and Jessie’sGirl!Luci. I guess Jefferson Rooney as Luci didn’t do much for me, but I’ve pretty much enjoyed all the rest. Ok- commence throwing things at me-now! 😉 😈 

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Is it that unpopular an opinion? Well, I'm with you, I despised the whole Cas as Luci shtick, thought it was some of the worst acting Misha ever did - that and anytime the writers wanted him to do an accent. For the latter I'm convinced they knew he was terrible with accents, and just threw them in because it made them giggle.

I also agree that Springfield's short duration as Luci was decent, probably more entertaining than Pellegrino's increasingly one-note take over the years. The only time Pellegrino's Luci really came off scary and threatening IMO was in Hammer of the Gods, when he's walking down the hall slaughtering all the gods. Now that was on point.

IMO the sole time Lucifer was scary and threatening was in the first episode of Season 5 when he was largely unseen and he played mindgames on a guy who had clearly recently lost his wife and baby. The way he went about gaining his vessel was truly chilling. Also in my eyes Pellegrino`s best acting in the series. 

Badd, as he often does, made the story less compelling through bad retcons but I still consider it effective in its own way.

Ric Springfield did a good job. His best moment was his bitter rant about how just after reconcilliation Chuck "ditched me". And then he looked at the Winchesters and said "and you, too, by the way". That was one of the single few effective moments in the entire show that showed how big the brothers have gotten as cosmic players. I mean Lucifer didn`t care one whit that Chuck ditched every other human, too. But for that moment, he saw the Winchesters as equal to him in terms of being abandoned and why the hell weren`t they also angry?

Such moments are very few and far between. 

      

[Scout Finch]

Rick Springfield was the closest to how I would imagine the Devil looking and acting like. Plus, I'm sure I'm not the only one who changed the chorus of his iconic song to "I wish that I was Jensen's girl"!

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

For the latter I'm convinced they knew he was terrible with accents, and just threw them in because it made them giggle.

I think Robert Singer said that he was a little "puzzled" by Misha's acting choice as both the Empty and AU Castiel. He seemed surprised by it.  J2 did tease Misha about it at a convention..JIBcon? 

And that always brings me back to a question I never seem to get an answer to.  Isn't it the directors job to curtail an acting choice?  I mean there have been dozens of guest stars that way over acted including Jeffery Pairse as Asmodeus.  Can't the director encourage the actor to dial it back a little?

I agree about Misha's acting choice as Lucifer. The only time I thought he did a good job of it was in The Vessel.

[Terese]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think Robert Singer said that he was a little "puzzled" by Misha's acting choice as both the Empty and AU Castiel. He seemed surprised by it.  J2 did tease Misha about it at a convention..JIBcon? 

And that always brings me back to a question I never seem to get an answer to.  Isn't it the directors job to curtail an acting choice?  I mean there have been dozens of guest stars that way over acted including Jeffery Pairse as Asmodeus.  Can't the director encourage the actor to dial it back a little?

I agree about Misha's acting choice as Lucifer. The only time I thought he did a good job of it was in The Vessel.

I refer to that as the comic book affectation. Over the top to convey something that in film or literature is far more subtle as it unfolds. Lacking substance, everyone becomes a characature of the character. 

It is part of the director's job to direct the character. Not sure why they don't. 

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, Terese said:

I refer to that as the comic book affectation. Over the top to convey something that in film or literature is far more subtle as it unfolds. Lacking substance, everyone becomes a characature of the character. 

It is part of the director's job to direct the character. Not sure why they don't. 

Even bubbles that said "pow" and "wham" would be more subtle and elegant than a lot of the things the show has been doing lately. 

Jack is basically portrayed as a Disney princess. Even when he has no soul or is supposed to be "uh, darkside tease". It`s a wonder cartoon birds don`t land on him all the time. 

[Terese]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even bubbles that said "pow" and "wham" would be more subtle and elegant than a lot of the things the show has been doing lately. 

Jack is basically portrayed as a Disney princess. Even when he has no soul or is supposed to be "uh, darkside tease". It`s a wonder cartoon birds don`t land on him all the time. 

I am sickened by how far this show has sunk this season. The tedious exposition everytime Billie overacts her dramatic intent, by example. I am genuinely disgusted. It is a live-action comic book, now. I have completely disengaged. Meaningless garbled mess that, mercifully, has zero impact on how I view what came before. And I was once genuinely concerned that it would ruin the show for me. I am delighted to say it has not.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Terese

[FlickChick]

50 minutes ago, Terese said:

I am genuinely disgusted. It is a live-action comic book, now.

What else would you have expected from a showrunner/writer (and trust me, I use the terms loosely) who was nothing but a comic book writer before coming over and ruining our show? I still can't believe some other sucker gave him another show to ruin! 😞

[Terese]

14 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

What else would you have expected from a showrunner/writer (and trust me, I use the terms loosely) who was nothing but a comic book writer before coming over and ruining our show? I still can't believe some other sucker gave him another show to ruin! 😞

Dabb wrote comic books? Omg. That explains everything. Did whoever hired him not realize that Supernatural is not a comic book? All the over exaggerated, trite, repetitive dialogue. Everyone, even Sam and Dean, especially Cas are reduced to one characteristic that defines who they are. Everything feels so cheesy.

Well, there you go. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 9/19/2020 at 12:53 PM, Scout Finch said:

Rick Springfield was the closest to how I would imagine the Devil looking and acting like. Plus, I'm sure I'm not the only one who changed the chorus of his iconic song to "I wish that I was Jensen's girl"!

I thought Springfield was solid gold.

[Castiels Cat]

On 9/19/2020 at 2:45 AM, Scout Finch said:

I'm up to the first few episodes of S13 and it's become increasingly necessary for me to know if I will be free of Mark Pellegrino anytime soon. Haven't liked Lucifer from the beginning but given that this season seems to be about his son, I'm afraid he'll be around for a while. It took several seasons before I started to appreciate Mark Shepherd and his Crowley but my chronic dislike of Mark P.'s character has only magnified through the seasons, and it's gotten to the point where I can't even stand to look at him. The constant smugness and condescension is so one-note and tiresome, and I've never found him the least bit amusing. I just want to wipe the permanent smirk off his face!

Hoping to get completely caught up with the series by October 8th!

Season 9 - 10 belong to Drowley. The second half of season 9 is a testament to Mark Sheppard"s acting, especially the finale. Crowley is the witness to Dean's loss of humanity. He is the only character who knows what is happening. Crowley wants to spend the day with Dean and the expression on his face when Dean isn't interested in eating his burger is... acting extraordinaire. This is Dean who typically eats for two.... Crowley knows for sure by then. The emotions in his face throughout the episode... and of course his monologue at the end.

Now Crowley did need Dean to take care of Abaddon and Crowley was mad about the cure but I think Crowley also had a thing for Dean and continued to no matter what until he sacrificed himself to help him... and Dean knew that. DEANMON knew it too.

Lucifer on the other hand totally lacks layers. Everyone is over him.

 

[Pondlass1]

It always tickled me that Crowley thought Demon Dean would rule Hell with him.  Instead he got dragged in a pub crawl. 🤣 Even “Regular” Dean takes orders from no one, didn’t Crowley realize that. He was never going to be able to control Demon Dean.

Somehow the Supernatural writers made Lucifer wimpy, annoying and boring. Quite an achievement considering Mark P is a decent actor and could’ve portrayed pure menacing evil no problem. 

[Aeryn13]

22 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Somehow the Supernatural writers made Lucifer wimpy, annoying and boring. Quite an achievement considering Mark P is a decent actor and could’ve portrayed pure menacing evil no problem. 

They did it with everything due to overexposure, clumsy storytelling and flanderization:

demons used to be menacing - now are mooks

angels used to be menacing - now are mooks

Lucifer - now granted, there is a whiny brat with daddy issues element in his backstory in almost all incarnations of the character across different shows, movies etc but SPN flanderized it to the high heavens

even God is more or less a whiny 14year old fanfic writer with a chip on their shoulder

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I thought Springfield was solid gold.

He did guest host a couple of times:)  

 

28 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

It always tickled me that Crowley thought Demon Dean would rule Hell with him.  Instead he got dragged in a pub crawl. 🤣 Even “Regular” Dean takes orders from no one, didn’t Crowley realize that. He was never going to be able to control Demon Dean.

Crowley always thinks crazy things like that.  He thought he could control Amara also. he thought it would be a good idea to keep Lucifer topside to taunt him, instead of throwing him back int he cage that was shown well able to hold him unless others intervened.  He tried to team up with Dick.  The first time he met Abaddon, he thought she was going to work for him. He was disabused of that within seconds, but still.

 

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

even God is more or less a whiny 14year old fanfic writer with a chip on their shoulder

So in other words Dabb.

[7kstar]

On 9/19/2020 at 1:05 PM, Casseiopeia said:

And that always brings me back to a question I never seem to get an answer to.  Isn't it the directors job to curtail an acting choice?  I mean there have been dozens of guest stars that way over acted including Jeffery Pairse as Asmodeus.  Can't the director encourage the actor to dial it back a little?

Talented directors do.  But I think one issue is that they have been playing these characters for so long that they are given free rein.  Actors are supposed to focus on their one character and directors focus on the overall picture.  Kim Manners did craft the acting choices.  A good actor will also give several options for the camera so that in editing they can pick the best option. 

I think they have gotten complacent and in having so much fun, they aren't exploring anymore.   I believe it was Richard Speight, who said it was trying to herd cats when talking about getting the work done. 

I think one reason I did love the Lord of the Rings movies was the ensemble of the actors worked so well and you really couldn't pick one actor out over the others.  Not that there weren't flaws but as a director the goal is to get to that level of ensemble but it is rare it happens.  One thing I noticed about Robin Williams when he had a strong director, his films did well.  When he did, whatever he wanted they didn't.  It's also why if the film bombs the director usually gets most of the blame even though it is a partnership.

But should the director curtail an acting choice, yes.  However, the ship sailed a long time ago.  Jensen did do the comedy bits smaller, and the directors kept pushing for over the top with the screaming at the cat being the example.  I don't believe anyone really does anything with the three, Jensen, Jared and Misha.  They are just allowed to do their thing and in someways that isn't good.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Talented directors do.  But I think one issue is that they have been playing these characters for so long that they are given free rein.  Actors are supposed to focus on their one character and directors focus on the overall picture.  Kim Manners did craft the acting choices.  A good actor will also give several options for the camera so that in editing they can pick the best option. 

I think they have gotten complacent and in having so much fun, they aren't exploring anymore.   I believe it was Richard Speight, who said it was trying to herd cats when talking about getting the work done. 

I think one reason I did love the Lord of the Rings movies was the ensemble of the actors worked so well and you really couldn't pick one actor out over the others.  Not that there weren't flaws but as a director the goal is to get to that level of ensemble but it is rare it happens.  One thing I noticed about Robin Williams when he had a strong director, his films did well.  When he did, whatever he wanted they didn't.  It's also why if the film bombs the director usually gets most of the blame even though it is a partnership.

But should the director curtail an acting choice, yes.  However, the ship sailed a long time ago.  Jensen did do the comedy bits smaller, and the directors kept pushing for over the top with the screaming at the cat being the example.  I don't believe anyone really does anything with the three, Jensen, Jared and Misha.  They are just allowed to do their thing and in someways that isn't good.

It was just that Singer knew Misha's choices were bizarre and some of the guest actors lately play their parts like they are Snidely Whiplash in a Dudley Do-right cartoon.  It just seems to me that the director can tone that down some or at least have a conversation about it.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It was just that Singer knew Misha's choices were bizarre and some of the guest actors lately play their parts like they are Snidely Whiplash in a Dudley Do-right cartoon.  It just seems to me that the director can tone that down some or at least have a conversation about it.

I think Dabb and Singer want it to be OTT and campy.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Talented directors do.  But I think one issue is that they have been playing these characters for so long that they are given free rein.  Actors are supposed to focus on their one character and directors focus on the overall picture. 

This tracks with the regular cast but as @Casseiopeia pointed out even the guest stars tend to either overact or are just terrible overall in the last several seasons and the actor cast as Asmodeus is a good example. They just don't seem to care the way that previous directors and showrunners did IMO and I continue to wonder why.

Edited September 27, 2020 by DeeDee79

[7kstar]

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This tracks with the regular cast but as @Casseiopeia pointed out even the guest stars tend to either overact or are just terrible overall in the last several seasons and the actor cast as Asmodeus is a good example. They just don't seem to care the way that previous directors and showrunners did IMO and I continue to wonder why.

Well, someone else has pointed out that Dabb's background is cartoons.  So if you want one dimension characters or going for soap, then the over the top fits.  Just another reason, in a long list of reasons, why it was time to shut down this show.  I guess they think that the fans love it.  Maybe some do.  The other question would be which directors allow this the most.  If Singer is at the helm, does it happen more often than other directors?  I haven't watched the last two seasons more than once.  No real desire to do it either.  The first time I try to watch as an audience, I don't put director hat or critic hat on until I start re-watching.  Since most of it is a blur nothing really stands out for me.  JMV   

[Terese]

55 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Well, someone else has pointed out that Dabb's background is cartoons.  So if you want one dimension characters or going for soap, then the over the top fits.  Just another reason, in a long list of reasons, why it was time to shut down this show.  I guess they think that the fans love it.  Maybe some do.  The other question would be which directors allow this the most.  If Singer is at the helm, does it happen more often than other directors?  I haven't watched the last two seasons more than once.  No real desire to do it either.  The first time I try to watch as an audience, I don't put director hat or critic hat on until I start re-watching.  Since most of it is a blur nothing really stands out for me.  JMV   

The story has suffered all the way around. There has also been really poor and repetitive dialogue. How many times can an actor say things such as, "I will break you!" without hamming it up? Or, "You know, I have always believed in Jack." The sheer monotony could easily contribute to the need to overact to keep from walking off the set in embarrassment or disgust. 

 

[Aeryn13]

16 minutes ago, LurkingSmurf said:

Further Unpopular Opinions: 1. Jared bought his way into the Boston Marathon, and he should stop acting like he accomplished anything there. 2. Jensen isn't "aging like fine wine", although he's clearly lost weight in anticipation of the show ending.

I`m unfamiliar with the inner workings of the Boston Marathon, how do you buy your way into it? You mean buying the right to participate? I thought anyone could do just do that. 

As for Jensen, he clearly has aged but I found that recent comedy bit in the show, where noone believed Dean was the same guy from his Season 1 fake badge yet completely believed Sam was, to be a bad joke. Out of the two Jared looks considerably more different to Season 1 Sam than Jensen to Season 1 Dean. And some recent promo pics of Dean Season 1 vs. Dean Season 15, I didn`t think 15 years were between them just looking at the pics. Clearly some years but not necessarily that many.    

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m unfamiliar with the inner workings of the Boston Marathon, how do you buy your way into it? You mean buying the right to participate? I thought anyone could do just do that. 

"The field for Boston is now capped at 31,500. More than 80 percent of those are time qualifiers, and the time required varies based on a runner's age and gender. The rest of the field gains entry by running for charities or through a different connection to the race."

I guess if Jared didn't qualify based on his time (I don't know if he did or didn't), then he could by running for one of the charities he supports.  I suppose that could be considered "buying your way in," but apparently 20% of the participants qualify that way.  

[DeeDee79]

52 minutes ago, LurkingSmurf said:

There's zero subtlety anymore, to the point where I would absolutely believe they're all drunk-filming. I kind of wonder if they haven't been insulated in this tiny bubble for so long where they get nothing but adulation from fangirls and no criticism from directors that they've drunk their own kool-aid and seriously regressed. It's why I roll my eyes when fans go on about how Jensen will now be free to reap all the Oscars, or whatever. Maybe ten years ago.

When you have subpar scripts and poor direction you can't expect the actors to turn out Oscar worthy performances. They didn't forget how to act but they may have begun phoning it in due to the absolute crapfest that the last too many seasons have been. I personally believe that just because the show isn't as good as it used to be isn't the fault of the actors who are still very good at their job, Jensen especially. But this is just my opinion.

[Terese]

27 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

When you have subpar scripts and poor direction you can't expect the actors to turn out Oscar worthy performances. They didn't forget how to act but they may have begun phoning it in due to the absolute crapfest that the last too many seasons have been. I personally believe that just because the show isn't as good as it used to be isn't the fault of the actors who are still very good at their job, Jensen especially. But this is just my opinion.

Yes, this season has hardly been a showcase for acting, nor was last season. Sitting around the bunker given the same repetitive lines, no action or agency is not conducive to depth of acting. In one episode, Sam was literally tied to a chair(again, season 12) and Dean fell asleep in Purgatory. Both were given the most horrendous unfunny script to work with in The Heroes Journey, with prolonged shots of Dean being lactose intolerant and equally prolonged shots of Sam reacting to pepper juice. The actors didn't write any of that crap. 

[tessathereaper]

On 9/27/2020 at 8:08 PM, Terese said:

The story has suffered all the way around. There has also been really poor and repetitive dialogue. How many times can an actor say things such as, "I will break you!" without hamming it up? Or, "You know, I have always believed in Jack." The sheer monotony could easily contribute to the need to overact to keep from walking off the set in embarrassment or disgust. 

 

The dialogue was never this show's high point but it's just so bloody awful now.  I really pity the actors having to say it esp when so much of it is repetitive. Not only bad but repeatedly bad. Sometimes I think they just have an AI program write it, I wonder if human hands ever actually touch it.  I doubt the writers talk to each other much.  And let's not forget what happens when one of the cast(Jensen for example) does attempt to get guidance, they are given the brush off.  It must be frustrating for the actors.  And it's clear most of the time the writers don't even have a plan.  I just don't understand why the network didn't replace Dabb after his first season, it was clear he had no real interest in the show or the existing characters.

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for Jensen, he clearly has aged but I found that recent comedy bit in the show, where noone believed Dean was the same guy from his Season 1 fake badge yet completely believed Sam was, to be a bad joke. Out of the two Jared looks considerably more different to Season 1 Sam than Jensen to Season 1 Dean. And some recent promo pics of Dean Season 1 vs. Dean Season 15, I didn`t think 15 years were between them just looking at the pics. Clearly some years but not necessarily that many.  

Oh yeah I do believe that is exactly what "aging like a fine wine" means, which is why people say it. (I know you know that Aeryn:)) It doesn't mean exactly the same, it means getting better with age, and many of us think he's gotten better with age.  He looks great.  The joke was so ridiculous because Dean looks so very similar aside from a few more eye crinkles(he always had them, just a little deeper now as it to be expected in 15 years and going from mid 20s to almost mid 40s) where Sam looks more different particularly due to not having bangs anymore.

Edited October 1, 2020 by tessathereaper

[Terese]

32 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

The dialogue was never this show's high point but it's just so bloody awful now.  I really pity the actors having to say it esp when so much of it is repetitive. Not only bad but repeatedly bad. Sometimes I think they just have an AI program write it, I wonder if human hands ever actually touch it.  I doubt the writers talk to each other much.  And let's not forget what happens when one of the cast(Jensen for example) does attempt to get guidance, they are given the brush off.  It must be frustrating for the actors.  And it's clear most of the time the writers don't even have a plan.  I just don't understand why the network didn't replace Dabb after his first season, it was clear he had no real interest in the show or the existing characters.

I am absolutely shocked that the Flagship of the CW Fleet was allowed to flounder and sink under Dabb. You don't tell a comic book writer that his spinoffs suck, and then let him captain the ship. All these metaphors about ships and stuff. Sorry, I probably think Supernatural is drowning. Sam and Dean had to jump ship. Sadly, to a remake of an old show and a sidekick in a new one. Desperation. And my heart breaks for them. They were really good. 

[supposebly]

Well, to stress this ship metaphor a bit further, my unpopular opinion is that it was Carver that dug the hole to make this ship sink. Dabb just didn't fix it. Or wasn't aware that it needed fixing.

[Terese]

56 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Well, to stress this ship metaphor a bit further, my unpopular opinion is that it was Carver that dug the hole to make this ship sink. Dabb just didn't fix it. Or wasn't aware that it needed fixing.

Would you give an example of what you mean?

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Dean looks so very similar aside from a few more eye crinkles(he always had them, just a little deeper now as it to be expected in 15 years and going from mid 20s to almost mid 40s

Personally speaking I love the eye crinkles; I think that they're adorable. 

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

Well, to stress this ship metaphor a bit further, my unpopular opinion is that it was Carver that dug the hole to make this ship sink. Dabb just didn't fix it. Or wasn't aware that it needed fixing.

Carver gave Dean a storyline that actually lasted more than a few episodes. IMO that makes him much better than Dabb.

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

Would you give an example of what you mean?

I started not recognising the Winchesters anymore and any drama was for empty drama's sake, not because it developed naturally from the characters being different people. The season finales were empty things with tears and death but I never understood anymore what it was all about starting with the season 8 finale. I held on until season 10 until I just couldn't take the shallowness and ridiculousness and canon destruction anymore. If it had been me, I would have been embarrassed as an actor way back then. But I guess I have less tolerance since I only need to be concerned with enjoying what I watch. I hadn't done that with almost any episode starting in season 8. So, Dabb probably sucks as a showrunner but Carver laid the groundwork in the show's decline and ruined it for me. 

People have been complaining about Dean not having a storyline since season 1. That is not a measurement for enjoying the show for me one way or the other.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Personally speaking I love the eye crinkles; I think that they're adorable. 

Carver gave Dean a storyline that actually lasted more than a few episodes. IMO that makes him much better than Dabb.

Oh me too, he's always had them.  He looks great. 

Yeah apparently Dean having a storyline is a bad thing.    I mean it's not like Carver didn't still remain with most of the program(you know having Sam and Castiel constantly proclaim "oh what's wrong with Dean, something's wrong with Dean, he's so dark and violent now" while they did things just as bad and violent or worse, it's hardly like Dean was getting any accolades in his storyline).  Not to mention the whole Gadreel ridiculousness.  No Carver wasn't perfect, he suffered from the same sort of biases most of the other show runners had, but Dean did at least have a storyline that actually was a real storyline, not just two or three episodes that ultimately didn't matter.

Edited October 1, 2020 by tessathereaper

[Terese]

13 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I started not recognising the Winchesters anymore and any drama was for empty drama's sake, not because it developed naturally from the characters being different people. The season finales were empty things with tears and death but I never understood anymore what it was all about starting with the season 8 finale. I held on until season 10 until I just couldn't take the shallowness and ridiculousness and canon destruction anymore. If it had been me, I would have been embarrassed as an actor way back then. But I guess I have less tolerance since I only need to be concerned with enjoying what I watch. I hadn't done that with almost any episode starting in season 8. So, Dabb probably sucks as a showrunner but Carver laid the groundwork in the show's decline and ruined it for me. 

People have been complaining about Dean not having a storyline since season 1. That is not a measurement for enjoying the show for me one way or the other.

Some manufactured contention in season 8, largely due to Sam's completely out of character behavior. But, it did settle down to an interesting series of trials to close Hell. I also enjoyed the introduction and manipulations of Metatron and much of the subsequent confusion and struggles of displaced angels, as well as human Castiel. It had to go somewhere, and there it went.

We also had the addition of well developed and sustaining  characters who played well off of Sam and Dean, showing a depth and growth in that interplay by all concerned,; Metatron, Naomi, Gadreel, Rowena, Cain, Donna. 

The crowning glory of the Carver era was season 11. Provocative, without melodrama, as thoughtful and serious as it was light and humorous, and in perfect measure. It included  all beings (even monsters building an army) taking responsibility for their universe while working together to face the darkness. It ended with family.

I have never ever heard anyone say or seen anyone write that Dean has not had a story since season 1.  Both Sam and Dean have had vigorous stories, neither successful without the other. And when they make mistakes, they do that together, as well.

 

 

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, LurkingSmurf said:

I kind of wonder if they haven't been insulated in this tiny bubble for so long where they get nothing but adulation from fangirls and no criticism from directors that they've drunk their own kool-aid and seriously regressed. It's why I roll my eyes when fans go on about how Jensen will now be free to reap all the Oscars, or whatever. Maybe ten years ago.

Oh Jensen can still act and I still find Jensen very good looking.  Jensen has moments where he is brilliant, but this show will never be that type of production that will get him the awards.  Learning the tap routine shows how much he can still do.  So it will be interesting to see what happens next.    But I do agree that there is a major safety net for all of them. 

I can't remember the correct quote, it's from a play but the point is instead of taking risks and doing different characters I played it safe and stayed with the one show and made money.  Because the show has done some good things every season, they have gotten to explore different things.  They have had fun and got to play with guns, swords and do the things that guy actors like to do.  They had fun on set and too many have talked about how awesome they were to work with.  So only time will tell what happens next.  I wish them all the best. 

They usually have two to three strong eps per season.  With strong writers it could have been 4 to 5.  The over the top comedy works for some eps but I do wish they didn't do it every single time.  It gets old. 

For me it is weird not doing any live theatre anymore.  First year not doing anything but I retired and right now it just isn't an option.  But this show will always have a fond spot in my heart.  I don't love all of it but then again I never do with any show.  But I did use Jensen to teach acting to young people.  When you study it, he can teach you a lot.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, LurkingSmurf said:

Kripke). Personally, I think Jensen will be okay, as he seems reasonably professional, but Jared at this point seems like he'd flounder anywhere he isn't the belle of the ball.

I have no worries about Jensen. He needed a change, he’s up for the challenge and will steal the show. Wait and see. He’ll be much more than ‘okay’.

My unpopular opinion is why they all put up with Jared’s fooling around for so long.  Everyone says it’s the funnest set and technicians have hung around from the beginning, but when it’s 2am on a bitter cold night and all I want is my warm bed and Jared’s fooling about, I think I’d want to smack him hard. Jensen must have the patience of Jobe.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

LOL. they don't call this the Unpopular  Opinion thread for nothing. 😛

I personally think Jensen is stunningly handsome. If a couple of (possibly) extra pounds constitutes letting yourself go (especially when the rest of you is aesthetically perfect) we should all let ourselves go. I should be so lucky.

I am on record as not being a fan of the OTT 'comedy' - but that's more because it's become a character trait instead of a rare occurrence and I hate that for Dean, as it is any commentary on Jensen's ability to carry it off. He is a great 'face' actor, which comes (IMO) from his training ground in soaps. So when he has to do physical shtick like the double takes and big comedy eyes, they can seem OTT. But he can do subtle and still tell a story with his face as well as any actor, ever. Go ahead and fight me.

Jensen is also the public record as asking for help when it came to portraying Michael and being blown off by a terrible showrunner with an inferiority complex. He still hit a homerun with it, as much as he was allowed to. IMO this kind of thing is why the plug got pulled - and I am more than ready to see what he can do with good writing and a producer/director who gives a shit.

 

 

[PAForrest]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL. they don't call this the Unpopular  Opinion thread for nothing. 😛

I personally think Jensen is stunningly handsome. If a couple of (possibly) extra pounds constitutes letting yourself go (especially when the rest of you is aesthetically perfect) we should all let ourselves go. I should be so lucky.

I am on record as not being a fan of the OTT 'comedy' - but that's more because it's become a character trait instead of a rare occurrence and I hate that for Dean, as it is any commentary on Jensen's ability to carry it off. He is a great 'face' actor, which comes (IMO) from his training ground in soaps. So when he has to do physical shtick like the double takes and big comedy eyes, they can seem OTT. But he can do subtle and still tell a story with his face as well as any actor, ever. Go ahead and fight me.

Jensen is also the public record as asking for help when it came to portraying Michael and being blown off by a terrible showrunner with an inferiority complex. He still hit a homerun with it, as much as he was allowed to. IMO this kind of thing is why the plug got pulled - and I am more than ready to see what he can do with good writing and a producer/director who gives a shit.

Yup, to each their own. I have seen Jensen at cons multiple times over the last 10 years. The man is not overweight or underweight. He's svelte, literally stunning in person. It's often a surprise too considering the multiple layers he's always been forced to wear on the show which made both guys look bulkier than they are in real life. Sure Jensen sometimes jokes about not liking exercise - and yet he's also said he keeps up with it every day when he's shooting. I believe their trailers contained treadmills, at the very least. And considering he and Danneel have a work out area in whatever house they're living in at the time, I'm sure he's using it. He's an actor - yes, he knows he has to stay in shape. Plus, as he's also said multiple times, and just recently on the Corey Booker zoom call, in real life he eats more like "Sam", and Jared eats more like "Dean" - much to Corey's dismay. LOL!

I wouldn't have blamed every single actor on Supernatural if they stopped bringing it, considering the dumpster level quality of material they were given the last few years. And still, they gave it more than the product deserved. Yes, I am ready to see Jensen working with quality material again. Pondlass1 is right - he'll do more than okay.

I too never understood why Jared got away with the level of pranking he did over the years. There was at least one guest star in season two who got pissed about it. I also don't understand why any of them put up with Dabb et. al. for as long as they did. Actors in many other series have not put up with much much less. I think it's a testament to the loyalty they all felt to the crew and network that is frankly unprecedented. But obviously even they had their breaking point, and given Pedowitz's many attempts to get the Js to stay on, it was obviously finally too much for even their level of devotion.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I too never understood why Jared got away with the level of pranking he did over the years. There was at least one guest star in season two who got pissed about it.

I did not know that.  About someone getting pissed about it. I don't blame whoever it was.  Whenever I hear the prank stories, I would think, that sounds so annoying, I would probably get mad. And then since they're famous and I'm presumably just a character actor (I guess in my made up fantasy scenario) I would be the one in the wrong.  

I think I heard something about Katie Cassidy not really appreciating the pranks but at least getting through it.