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mstaken

Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

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This is the place to express opinions about Supernatural that you've found, in your experience, to be unpopular or just plain odd while merrily respecting everyone else's :) A few random ones that spring to mind:

 

1) I'm totally indifferent to  Castiel. I really wanted to care about him, and I'm definitely not someone who resents the presence of any character who's not named Sam or Dean, but Castiel and his 'special' relationship with Dean just aren't that compelling to me. I wish I felt differently!

 

2) I loved Bela. I can't begin to justify it, but I just enjoyed her immensely.

 

3) I don't share the seemingly popular opinion that S3's Ruby was far superior to S4's. I couldn't stand Ruby in any incarnation. Despite that, though...

 

4)...the more I rewatch, the more Season 3 has emerged as my favorite season. I just adore it and connect with it for so many reasons, especially when fast forwarding through the Ruby-heavy scenes! (S2 and S1 are right up there, though!) 

 

5) I didn't think the much-loved Ellen was that great a character. She was fine, but for me she was pretty much that exact same 'tough 'n sassy yet caring deep down!' female the show seems obsessed with to the point where we rarely get any deviation from it. 

 

6) I think the Pilot remains one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. 

 

7) John Winchester is a really important and even interesting character in theory, but I almost never actually enjoyed his scenes with the boys. They just felt too forced, repetitive and over-the-top to me, and the actor looks more like the boys' older brother than their father. 

 

8) I liked Jo. She fits that same 'type' of SPN female I mentioned above, but the actress made her somewhat likable to me.

 

9) I couldn't possibly care less about Lisa or Jessica.

 

10) I'd have been more than fine with Meg never reappearing past Are You There God? It's Me, Dean Winchester in S4.  

 

11) For whatever bizarre reasons, I tend to really like a lot of very unpopular episodes: Bugs, Roadkill, and Yellow Fever are just a few that leap to mind! 

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1) I'm totally indifferent to  Castiel. I really wanted to care about him, and I'm definitely not someone who resents the presence of any character who's not named Sam or Dean, but Castiel and his 'special' relationship with Dean just aren't that compelling to me. I wish I felt differently!

2) I loved Bela. I can't begin to justify it, but I just enjoyed her immensely.

 

Agree with these!  When I read the title of this thread, Cas was the first thing that came to mind. And Bela, yeah, I kind of loved her, if you can't tell LOL. My screen name is for my love of both Belas. I didn't know she wasn't popular in the fandom. I know she was a villain but I loved all her interactions with the guys. 

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My outlier opinion is the opposite of yours :) I love Dean, Castiel, Bobby and Crowley. It's Sam I can take or leave. My favourite season with him was the one where he lost his soul. That was the most fun he's ever been.

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I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but it seems to me if we're toting up what forced the Winchester family into the life they have, the biggest factor was Sam being fed the demon's blood as an infant. Which of course isn't Sam's fault, but if one of them was going to resent the other for forcing them into a life they didn't want, it could just as easily be Dean. From his perspective, he had parents and a sort of normal life until his baby brother showed up, and then his mother was gruesomely murdered and he had to take on being something like a parent and a hunter and giving up his own childhood.

Which Dean has mostly managed not to do. So while I'm sympathetic to Sam's feelings, he strikes me as a little spoiled for beating up on Dean because he wants to have a choice about his life. Sure he does. I bet Dean does too.

They're both in a crappy position. Only one of them is firing on the rescue ships. And I may be reading this wrong, but it seems to me that the show takes Sam's position more seriously than Dean's. That kind of annoys me.

Edited by Julia
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I've discovered that my love of some of the female characters is sort of unpopular.  Like some of you in this thread, I loved Bela.  I also loved Meg and was really disappointed when she was killed.  There was such an interesting storyline that I wanted to see explored further with the friendship between angel and demon.  I also love love love Charlie.  I have watched her episodes so many times that I probably have the dialogue all memorized.  I'm not sure that I ever gravitated to either brother as a character, though I favored Ackles performance since he's probably the strongest actor on the show.  However, I used to find myself annoyed with Dean more than other characters.  It wasn't that I disliked him or was fangirling another character.  I just found some of his behaviors frustrating in a sort of "ugh, what are you doing!" sort of way.  I'm positive that if Dean were played by a different actor, I'd loathe him.  

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I like John.  Not flashback-John, but John as played by JDM. 

 

I liked original-recipe Meg as played by Nikki Aycox but hate replacement Meg.

 

I think the past few seasons has had too many demons and angels.  I know they'll never get back to being mostly about hunting ghosts and tulpas and skinwalkers and the stuff of urban legends, but I miss those things in the show.  I like Castiel and don't want him gone, but I don't want to feel like I need a scorecard to keep track of the other players.

 

I love the repeated use of "Carry On, Wayward Son" for season finales.

 

 

I think the Pilot remains one of my favorite episodes of the entire series.

 

 

I didn't realize that was an unpopular opinion.  I think my heart just broke a little bit.  I love the Pilot.

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Well I love the Pilot so if that is unpopular, well I usually don't follow the crowd.

 

I think Jensen is the strongest actor on the show.  But I hate that they have him applogize all the time for something that really isn't his fault. 

 

I liked Ellen, Jo, Bella, and the 1st Ruby of season 3.  Not a fan of the second Meg though I liked the first Meg.

I wish they didn't kill of the strong women.

 

I liked Lisa and Ben.  I hated how they got rid of them.  I also loved Bobby.

 

I've grown tired of the Meta eps, but liked Yellow Fever even though I didn't like some parts about it.

 

I hate when they like to show Dean as stupid, he hunted on his own for a year so he must be able to do research on his own.

 

I hate what they have done to Sam and I don't feel poor Sam isn't getting storylines, nor do I feel Dean isn't getting storylines.  I just don't like the storylines they give Dean sometimes.

 

I liked John but I hate how they have trashed his character.  I wish he could come back and get a positive ep with his sons.

 

By the way, JDM thought he was too young to play their dad as well but I buy it for some reason even though I know he isn't old enough.

 

The one that most likely I will be alone on,  I don't think Eric Kripke was the perfect writer for Supernatural, he got lucky but a lot of his best ideas were accidents and he even admitted it.  I do love some of the things he has done, but I hate the ending of season 5.

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Thanks to everyone who's chimed in! 

 

It's Sam I can take or leave. My favourite season with him was the one where he lost his soul. That was the most fun he's ever been.

 

Hee---I actually loved Sam the first few seasons, but I started disliking him in S4 and have never been able to muster up much affection for him since. I didn't mention that only because in my world that's a fairly popular opinion! I do agree that Soulless Sam was somewhat amusing :) 

 

Like some of you in this thread, I loved Bela.

 

Woo hoo---table for three! :) 

 

I think the past few seasons has had too many demons and angels.  I know they'll never get back to being mostly about hunting ghosts and tulpas and skinwalkers and the stuff of urban legends, but I miss those things in the show.

 

Amen, sister! I totally get the argument that they had to 'broaden' the show and make it more arc-driven and that many of us would have found the heavy focus on urban-legend-of-the-week repetitive, but I really LOVED that fun, adventurous, satisfying 'saving people, hunting things' aspect of the show and the slightly less angst-y tone that seemed to go with it.  

 

I do love some of the things he has done, but I hate the ending of season 5.

 

I actually kind of hate Season 5 in general! 

 

I, too far preferred Original Recipe Meg. 

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I hate Swan Song. Really like a lot.  The only thing I liked was the montage with the sound of the wind.

 

I thought they had the makings of an amazing setup for s6 when Dean declared that he was coming after God.  Mission s6: Get Sammy out of the Cage and kill God.  But no....Dean's stupid fucking promise to Sam to go find Lisa. 

Edited by catrox14
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My favorite part of Supernatural was Damian and Raoul. I wish we could get them back.

 

Separate from that, i dislike how the writers keep turning up the power. It used to take both of the brothers to handle the most piddling creature. Now, they can each kill a dozen without breaking a sweat. Angel blades used to be rare, now you can't roll over in bed without finding one. And holy oil used to be a vanishing relic of another time, now you can get it in 50 gallon drums at Kmart.

 

Having said that, i am old enough to have seen Kolchak when it first came out. And i remember thinking at the time that the series couldn't last when each week he'd meet up with a different legend and see it disposed of with very little continuity between episodes. I was right. Kolchak didn't last, Sam and Dean are going strong after 8 seasons. You need those arcs, folks.

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11) For whatever bizarre reasons, I tend to really like a lot of very unpopular episodes: Bugs, Roadkill, and Yellow Fever are just a few that leap to mind! 

I'm a fan of "Bugs".  It was a fun harmless episode.  The only thing I didn't like about it was the insta-dawn.

 

- I still say to this day that Zachariah was right.  Dean should have said yes to Michael, and proceeded to whoop Lucifer's ass.  Instead the Winchesters got all self righteous and didn't want any part of that while numerous people were dying, including Jo and Ellen being killed.  I hated that "Screw destiny" crap they kept pulling, yeah while you're saying "Screw destiny" many are dying.

 

- I like The Trickster, Crowley, Death, and Zachariah more than Dean, Sam, and Castiel.  I don't hate Dean, Sam, and Cas, it's just that I like the other characters a lot more.  Hell, I was hoping that it would be revealed that Trickster or Crowley was God, but that didn't happen.

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The one that most likely I will be alone on,  I don't think Eric Kripke was the perfect writer for Supernatural, he got lucky but a lot of his best ideas were accidents and he even admitted it.  I do love some of the things he has done, but I hate the ending of season 5.

Oh, you're deninitely not alone, 7kstar. I love Kripke for creating SPN (and - most of all - Dean Winchester), but I don't think he's the ~God many people see him as.

I found the solution of the Apocalypse/Lucifer problem beyond stupid and unsatisfying on so. Many. Levels.

Seriously, setting up the whole ~destiny spiel for the Archangels' vessels, and the whole ~Michael sword storyline, only to whip up Adam as a last minute stand in? Really? As if angel middle management couldn't have thought of that earlier...

Yeah, like Heaven supposedly worked so hard to make sure John and Mary got together only to use John and Kate Milligan's offspring? No. Just no.

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Okay, really unpopular opinion:

 

I liked Becky. There. I've said it. And I'm not taking it back.

 

I did not feel like she was meant to represent the average fangirl, just, you know, the over the top fangirl. Or the average fic writer. Just the kind you'd expect somebody called "Samlicker81" would be. (I definitely wouldn't read any of her fics. Nor would I read any fic of somebody who calls themselves "Deanlicker81" for that matter.) I found her quirky and enjoyable to watch. And once she was called out on her wrong behaviour wrt roofying Sam, she came through and helped get rid of the demon.

 

(I also enjoyed immensely that all her stupid, over the top fangirling was directed at Sam, bless his heart. Kind of making him look silly in the process. Of the few side characters other than Lucifer who actually seem to take a stronger liking to Sam than Dean, Sam gets Becky. Still makes me laugh.)

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I definitely agree about Castiel.  I could take him or leave him, I just don't really care.  He amuses me, but I usually prefer episodes he isn't in.

 

I still watch the show for Sam and Dean and their relationship.  That the show's #1 selling point for me.  

 

I love Sam.  I love Dean, too.  But Dean gets so much love I feel like it's "unpopular" these days to like Sam and stick up for him.  I mean, I sometimes hate what the writers do with his character (I'll admit he's definitely being a bit of a jerk this season), but I still think Sam is a good guy who loves his brother.

 

 

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I generally think most of my opinions about SPN are unpopular. '

 

  • Liked Bela, rolled my eyes at any incarnation of Ruby.
  • Liked Lisa and Ben, didn't like how they got used.
  • Liked most of S6--especially SoullessSam--and more of S7. Hate S8 and even more so S9.
  • Like Castiel fine, but don't see this "profound bond" and couldn't care less about it.
  • As much as I love Mark Sheppard, I can't figure out why Crowley is still on this show.
  • Could care less which character gets an arc or story, only care if it's interesting to watch.

 

Oh, I have so many more, but I need to go to work now.

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I'm glad to see I'm not alone in a lot of my opinions on the show! It's nice to see a place that isn't overrun by shrieking fangirls. 

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I agree with some expressed but not all.

 

- I adore Castiel and he's my favourite character but didn't care too much for Human Cas though I could adjust I guess.

 

- I dislike Sam

 

- I also disliked the character Kevin Tran though I adore the actor.

 

- Didn't like Benny and thought he was overrated. But I have a hate on for all vampires whether on tv or in the movies so there's that

 

- I didn't really care for the brothers much when I started watching in 05 and dropped the series. It was the picture of Castiel with his shadow wings in 401 that dragged me back.

 

- I disliked the domestic Dean storyline, didn't mind Lisa so much but disliked Ben.

 

- I adore Rufus more than Bobby and wish he had been in more episodes.

 

- I like Sleepy Hollow a lot more than Supernatural

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It's nice to see a place that isn't overrun by shrieking fangirls.

 

 

I try to limit myself to the occasional dignified squeal. 

 

 

I adore Rufus more than Bobby and wish he had been in more episodes.

 

 

I love Rufus.  I guess my UO there is that while I know Supernatural is about the brothers, I would've liked more episodes of Rufus and Bobby dealing with cases on their own - just one or two per season, with the brothers on a secondary/background plotline for the ep. 

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I try to limit myself to the occasional dignified squeal.

 

Ha! I mean the ones who say things like "real fans" and "stop watching then"  in response to any sort of criticism.  

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I know many adore the angst, but my UO is that this show has far, far, FAR too much of it. It's as if they decided sometime before S4 that being a 'good' show is synonymous with being as relentlessly, pointlessly depressing and grim as possible. They seem intent on pounding us over the heads with just how much the boys, their relationship, and pretty much everything about the world at large sucks. Oh, and the universe is always about to end and everyone they care about dies a horrible death. Are we having fun yet?! ;) Ironically, I've become almost immune to the agnstfest by now; if it had been a little less frequent and excessive, it might still be more poignant for me. The first three seasons had more than their share of angst and hand-wringing despair, but it seemed more counterbalanced by adventure, fun and even hope. The brothers still seemed to like each other more often than not, and often even---wait for it--smiled! Maybe this makes me a shallow viewer, but I far preferred that to the wrist-slitting depression and gross dysfunction we've gotten since then.

 

I'm usually a fan of the more light and humorous episodes (see above rant!), but my very UO is that Changing Channels doesn't quite work for me. I love that type of humor, I love most episodes that feature the Trickster, and lord knows I love TV enough to 'get' most of what they were poking fun at it...so this should be one of my all-time favorites, but somehow it just leaves me kind of 'meh.'  

Edited by mstaken
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I adored Season 4 BAMF Castiel, and hate the "naieve", comic-relief Castiel of later seasons. Too much of what made the character unique has been taken away, kind of like if Spock suddenly started expressing emotions and it got called character development. I dislike how supernatural reasons are used to take away accountability for so many of the characters - here is the unpopular part - also in Castiel's case. "He is an angel and doesn't know how to make better choices" let's him off the hook for a lot of things but makes him less compelling character. I think there is a lot of wasted potential here. 

 

I think Carver era is a huge, unnecessary escalation of the codependency problems (which is not even an accurate description) between Sam and Dean. I'm not even that invested in the relationship, but it's sucking the fun out of the show. Early seasons had a nice balance of angst and humour, it was still rooted in realism and explorations of trauma etc., but wasn't so hopelessly, pointlessly grim. 

 

I think all of the protagonists are written like villains. Well-intentioned extremist is a villain trope, down to the "I did what I had to" catchphrase. In Sam's case, it went the route of slippery slope with the demon blood. I guess they can do this because they can come back from the consequences with supernatural explanations (committed genocide? it was the souls!). *eyeroll*  

 

I initially found it hard to get into the show because I just can't buy into the premise that hunters are all solitary. Not being an organized community makes absolutely no sense. They can capture monsters and PROVE their existence to the rest of the world - but don't. They don't even have a database of the lore, and had to call each other up for anecdotal solutions and go to libraries and use Google. The fact that everyone chooses to physically fight, rather than contributing their own areas of expertise (e.g. accumulating knowledge, weapons manufacturing, gathering funds, providing medical care etc... Sam being a lawyer would have been VERY useful) defies reason. MOL seemed to somewhat fulfill some of those purposes until they were gone, but the fact that noone else tried to organize? Completely beyond belief. I still think so and it annoys me, but I turn a blind eye. *stop here before I go on a rant*  

 

I can't figure out if hating Swan Song is unpopular... On Tumblr, it is very very popular, many people thought it was the best episode of the series, but on TWOP many others hated it as much as I did. 

 

Most unpopular of all - I liked Amelia and thought that was a good POV arc for Sam. *ducks rotten tomatoes* 

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I can't figure out if hating Swan Song is unpopular... On Tumblr, it is very very popular, many people thought it was the best episode of the series, but on TWOP many others hated it as much as I did. 

 

Most unpopular of all - I liked Amelia and thought that was a good POV arc for Sam. *ducks rotten tomatoes* 

 

I wholeheartedly agree on these two points.

 

Tumblr can get very messiah!Sam-ish, so there would be a lot of love for Swan Song there.

 

And the one time we really get a POV for Sam with the Amelia storyline... nobody seems to like it. *scratches head*

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Seriously, the angst. Sometimes it's like reading a Russian novel.  Only less hopeful.

 

The first three seasons had more than their share of angst and hand-wringing despair, but it seemed more counterbalanced by adventure, fun and even hope. The brothers still seemed to like each other more often than not, and often even---wait for it--smiled! Maybe this makes me a shallow viewer, but I far preferred that to the wrist-slitting depression and gross dysfunction we've gotten since then.

 

 

The balance with the sense of adventure helped, definitely, and I think it also helped that the weight of everything they were carrying was lighter.  They had their family issues, and they had the problem of Sam being a special favorite of the yellow-eyed demon, and the general propensity the Winchesters seem to have of selling their souls for each other.  (Maybe that should just go under "family issues" at this point.)   But all of that was personal to them as Winchesters. And then suddenly they were focal points in THE war between good and evil with all of humankind riding on their choices. The problem then becomes, how to you top that?  I don't think the writers knew where to go from there without amping up the despair and angst.  

 

My unpopular opinion?  I wish the angel storyline would wrap up and the boys' minds get erased of all of their interactions with angels and demons so that they can go back to carrying the lighter weight of just wanting to save people, rather than needing to save the entire world.  I know it won't happen, but I can't see anything but despair for the boys forever with the course they're on now. (Ideally I want this to happen:  Castiel makes a deal with someone in charge.  In exchange for giving up his angel status and becoming human, the angels and demons have to leave Sam and Dean alone and the memories of angels and demons are wiped from the brothers' minds.  Then human Castiel comes along, meets up with the brothers, and the three of them can live somewhat happily ever after.  Maybe Dean and Cas can ride off into the sunset together and Sam can go back to his normal life.)

 

 

Most unpopular of all - I liked Amelia and thought that was a good POV arc for Sam.

 

 

I also liked her well enough.  I knew better than to get too attached to her given this show's history, but I think she was okay.  

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My unpopular opinion?  I wish the angel storyline would wrap up and the boys' minds get erased of all of their interactions with angels and demons so that they can go back to carrying the lighter weight of just wanting to save people, rather than needing to save the entire world.

 

I would love this so much. SO much.

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Given that the boys have literally been through Hell and back, have lost pretty much everyone they have loved or felt responsible towards, I would be a little annoyed if there was no underlying darkness and wounds and PTSD and pain.

 

The problem IMO is that this current group of writers and showrunners have lost the ability to use dark humor and character based silliness to balance the angst and have it work.  Instead they use poorly timed, juvenile and OTT humor which is whiplash-y. I am not including the never ending dick jokes of the Leviathan arc in s7 because there was enough weirdness with the Leviathans themselves like bibbing and the villain being called Dick Roman, to make dick jokes work.  Thinking back to episodes like Hollywood Babylon, French Mistake, Mystery Spot, Yellow Fever, Wishful Thinking etc, those worked because the humor was so dark and so twisted that it worked and it blended with the actual MOTW or arcs and moved the plots forward.   Now it's like okay "Here is a funny episode" and it's annoying more than funny.    

 

That said, I do think a few episodes this season have come closer to the quirky, dark humor not silly humor, like "Blade Runners" or "First Born" or even "Stairway to Heaven" had some funny lines.   So it gives me hope that they are on a better track with the right kind of humor to balance the angst.

Edited by catrox14
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I would be a little annoyed if there was no underlying darkness and wounds and PTSD and pain.

 

 

Heh.  Yeah, I suspect yours is the popular feeling among fans.  That's why I included my UO here.

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I don't think yours is an UO at all. I've been seeing a lot of discussion in Twitterland and on other discussion sites that are more in line with your opinion these days. 

 

Also, I wasn't trying to change your opinion. I was just using it a stepping point to the lack of humor discussion.  Sorry if my post came across otherwise. That was not my intention nor my purpose.

Edited by catrox14
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I would be a little annoyed if there was no underlying darkness and wounds and PTSD and pain.

 

I agree with this, the gritty realism is what appealed to me in the first place. I loved that they were completely unglamorous, poor, alcoholics with homemade EMF detectors. I also have a really high tolerance for angst - I loved Season 4 and most of 5, and my favourite movies include things like Requiem for a Dream. I just don't think Supernatural is the right kind of show to go into so much depth about certain issues (major mental health disorders, child abuse, severe ptsd, etc). IMO, too many serious/sensitive issues get brought up and really escalated, but do not get given much consideration/airtime and are not properly resolved. Some of the fandom discussion this stuff generates on Tumblr are quite atrocious lol (although of course, there are also very, very insightful, considerate, well-researched discussions too). The show itself sends a really ambiguous message sometimes, which I find very irresponsible considering the age of a lot of its audience. Way too many times I have found myself thinking, is this show actually advocating suicide as a solution? It's very frustrating. I think some topics they just shouldn't touch unless they can do it justice. 

 

Also, by this point, Sam and Dean are like a couple wanting to divorce but stuck with each other for the sake of the children. Just, why...??? Bring back some of the fun!! :/

Edited by Mcolleague
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I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks some of these things mentioned!  I love this show, it's my #1 or #2 depending on my mood, but it gets so frustrating sometimes!!

 

I love Castiel.  I love that Cas loves Dean so much.  I don't see any romantic anything with them though.  I see two guys who love each other as, dare I say, brothers or really good friends.  I have purposefully looked for all these romantic subtext things and just can't see them.  

 

That said, I can't stand when they try to pair up Cas with Sam.  Whew, that's a tough one to admit to anyone other than my poor, put-upon husband!  I'm not sure if it's because I have come to really, really dislike Sam so I don't like him playing with my nice things or if it just feels so forced to me whenever they put them together. It always feels like they sat around and said, "Geez, everyone's whining about Sam never having any scenes with Cas, let's make them work together on this, that'll shut 'em up for awhile!"  Sam and Cas scenes just don't feel as organic to me as Dean and Cas scenes.  Ugh, I can't really explain it well, so I'll just leave it there.

 

I loved Jo and was sorry Dean looked at her in a new light too late.

 

I loved Lisa and I loved Ben.  I knew she was just too good to be true but I didn't care, I liked how she was with Dean.  I loved how Dean was with Ben and I really loved how Ben was with Dean.  That boy just flat out loved him.

 

I didn't like either Ruby.   

 

I liked Meg 2.0 better than Nicki Aycox.

 

Never warmed to Kevin Tran or his mom.  Osric seems like a sweetheart but I'm fine with both Trans being gone now.

 

I watch the show for Dean, Cas and Sam.  I loved the early seasons (especially S3) when Sam loved his brother and didn't openly see him as a burden.  I miss those Winchesters.  I know they had to grow and I'm good with that but I hate that I hate Sam.  They ruined him for me in S4 and after S8, it's pretty much full on hate for Sam on my part.  I hate that!!  

 

This is a really fun thread to read.  It's also good to get some of those UO's out there!  Sorry I wrote a book about mine! :)

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I loved the early seasons (especially S3)

 

Thanks to all those who have made me feel that my weirdly deep love for S3 is less 'unpopular' than I'd believed :) The more I rewatch lately, the more I hold the UO of loving S3 even more than S1 and the wildly (and understandably!) popular S2. I've even grown to like some of the season's most generally disliked episodes, like The Kids Are Alright (I don't care about Lisa and the Ben-as-Dean-Jr. parallels were annoyingly heavyhanded, but that was one of the most effectively creepy cases of the entire series IMO!), Bedtime Stories, Long Distance Call and (*ducks*) Magnificent Seven.

 

 

 

My unpopular opinion?  I wish the angel storyline would wrap up and the boys' minds get erased of all of their interactions with angels and demons so that they can go back to carrying the lighter weight of just wanting to save people, rather than needing to save the entire world.

 

I'm right there with you! Objectively, I completely and totally understand why many would hate this idea, but I'd love it to a ridiculous degree. 

Edited by mstaken
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I'm realizing I have another UO.  Season 4 and 5 are my favorite.  I'm not even sure I can articulate why they were my favorites.  Apart from my compulsive rewatching of Charlie episodes (did I mention before that I love her?  If not, I'll say it again - I love her!  Hope she returns from Oz like tomorrow and gets an episode with a better story), I rewatch more episodes from 4 and 5.  I actually thought I would turn away from the show when it got a little too much into Christian mythology.  Nope, I ended up becoming a wee bit obsessive.  I must have written 30 essays about some of the themes I enjoyed (yeah, I'm a nerd who writes essays in my free time).  

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I love Swan Song.

 

It has a few issues but after seeing the interpretation (and now unable to UN-see it) that it was Lucifer's pain (at seeing the self-sacrificing love between Sam and Dean as demonstrated in the flashback) that allowed Sam to momentarily take control --- well, I'm totally down for the finale.

I also am of the unpopular opinion that Dean's story was not "thrown away". And that at the end of the day, it was because Dean went to die with Sammy if that is all he could do -- that he fulfilled his role as The Righteous Man and therefore HE is responsible for putting an end to the Apocalypse.  Obviously the whole rings/SamsayingYes/Samjumpingintothepit was essential as well -- but if Dean hadn't shown up, the big fight would have happened.  So Dean, IMO, remained the lynchpin to stopping the Apocalypse.  I do not want in any way to suggest that what Sam did was less important but I don't agree at all with the idea that Dean was not essential with the stopping of the Apocalypse.

 

YMMV -- and I understand. 

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SueB, I am of the same unpopular opinion--Dean having an important role, that is. I have a notion about the apocalypse never really being stopped yet though. However, that's more...well not really speculation, but my mind trying to make sense of some of what's come after...wanking then maybe? But the reason I don't really care for Swan Song is more to do with it just not all coming together well for me. It annoys me beyond measure that they spend a great deal of S5 saying that they can't say yes and everything was put into that goal, until it's all the sudden a good idea for one of them to say yes. It's not that I think Dean was shafted or anything, but that the viewers were shafted in the end. Kinda why I don't really like Sacrifice either (another unpopular opinion, I think.)

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I never expected Dean to say yes to Michael and didn't feel as if Dean was "slighted" for not getting to be a vessel. I always thought it would have to go differently. Someone had to be there who was rebelling against the Apocalypse Prizefight, or else the finale would have been Michael vs. Lucifer with no Winchesters anywhere. Adam being a pinch-hitter made sense to me as a last resort, given that he wasn't The One, and that the angels couldn't be certain of the outcome in that instance. They were absolutely certain that Michael-in-Dean would win, but Michael-in-Adam is better than Michael-in-Random or Michael-in-No-One.

 

The only thing that would have made Swan Song better for me is if a) it was the end of the series, and b) Sam was able to take control but not able to jump or physically move, and then Dean would need to tackle him into the hole so all three Winchester brothers would end up downstairs. It's really the only ending that would make sense to me at this point. I can't see them leaving the life if they're still breathing, and I don't see them growing old.

 

Season 1 and 2 were nice, but a bit heavy on the As You Know style of exposition. I found it clunky enough to consider quitting at the time. With the mytharc I actually felt the story was, well, a story rather than a cobbled-together collection of updated legends that could have used a bit of elbow grease here and there. (I tend to be hopelessly bored when there isn't an overarching plot in something I'm reading/watching, though.)

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Apart from one or two plot points, I really enjoyed season 7. Season 8 and 9 have focused way too much on the angel storyline, which I find hard to understand/keep track of as who is fighting and what over keeps changing or seems unclear to me. I do like Cas, however, and I'm about 1000% certain there's a way to keep him without having the uber boring politics stuff.

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I hate this DemonDean idea. I don't think it's surprising or interesting or creative or edgy. 

 

I could happily go the rest of the series without hearing one freaking syllable about the angels and their tiresome political conflicts and neverending war. To make this even less popular, I should confess that I NEVER cared about the angels...not even way back in S4 when the ideas were theoretically fresher and brimming with potential, and certainly not now. I totally get that SPN can't and shouldn't be literally only about the brothers, and I fully understand that the show had to broaden their scope a bit beyond just the individual myths and legends that I love more than is normal :) I just happen to dislike the execution. 

 

I get why so many love the brotherly angst. I really, truly do. I'm just beyond weary of it by now. It's grim and repetitive and OMG-we-GET-it-already, and for me the relentless anvils about how horrible the boys and their relationship is have started to totally overshadow the brothers' previously established strengths, both as individuals and as a duo who once, despite their problems, genuinely LIKED each other. I want the primary conflicts of the remaining seasons to be more external, with the brothers uniting---albeit sometimes uneasily---to combat common (and hopefully interesting!) foes rather than spending a full 90% of every season hating each other and looking like their time together is akin to a prison sentence. I'm not asking for things to be unrealistically idyllic between them or for all past problems to be magically forgotten. I just want far more moments of joy, humor and actual FUN between them. I want to be reminded that they sometimes still kinda like each other rather than just staying together out of dreary obligation. 

 

Judging from our Episode Elimination game, this one is very unpopular: I don't really like Dead in the Water. The case itself is interesting, but Dean's bonding with the child felt forced and heavyhanded to me. And I just CAN'T with Amy Acker! 

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Yes to that whole post, mstaken.

 

I want to be reminded that they sometimes still kinda like each other rather than just staying together out of dreary obligation.

 

 

If I could wish for just ONE thing on this show to be fixed, it would be this.  I don't really like the angel/demon storylines, and I hate that the writers keep killing off peripheral characters after I grow to like them, but I'll deal with all that if they would just stop portraying Dean and Sam as if they don't actually like each other very much.  I get that they've never stopped loving each other in that "we're family and we're obligated and we're all we've got" way.  But I hate that it seems like that's all there is to their relationship sometimes.  I know their lives suck right now and they're not going to play a bunch of light-hearted practical jokes on each other, but the occasional smile would be nice.  The occasional singing in the car.  Affectionate teasing instead of barbed jabs at each other's weaknesses.  Anything.  

 

 

I hate this DemonDean idea. I don't think it's surprising or interesting or creative or edgy.

 

 

ITA.   I don't see anything even remotely creative or surprising in this turn.  It's the same story they've done more than once already, but with the players juggled around.  Everyone asks what's wrong with Character X?  Has he gone bad?  Much hand-wringing ensues, then some vague magical something happens and X is back to himself again.  At this point, even having Dean wake up to find it was all a dream would have been more creative. 

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I hate this DemonDean idea. I don't think it's surprising or interesting or creative or edgy. 

 

I join you in this opinion mstaken, other than it not really making sense, it just really doesn't feel interesting at all.  I'm tired of this show doing crap like this because they think it will be "awesome" and "edgy", but they rarely actually develop it well enough to make it so. It's all surface, IMO.

 

I'll also sign your Enough-With-The-Brotherly-Angst-That-Is-Strangling-A-Perfectly-Good-Show rant too.(I may have taken a liberty with the title here...my words, not mstaken's)

 

Also, I think Dead In The Water is only watchable because Kim Manners directed it, otherwise I'd probably just skip it.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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I think it's fair to say that I agree about demon!Dean considering my rant in the episode thread.  My worry is that it won't be fixed.  Meaning I have a terrible unfounded speculation that the show will try to go uber dark, and destroy Dean's character forever.  I am concerned that they want to be cool and edgy but deconstructing the hero and not reconstruct him.  And that they are going to setup Sam have to make the decision to kill his brother. 

 

I have been thinking that all season Jeremy Carver has been trying to recreate Being Human via Supernatural with his making Garth a sympathetic werewolf, the families of monsters in Bloodlines and trying to "cure' Crowley of his demonization to examine the humanity in monsters vs the monster in the human.  So what "better" edgier SHOCKING way than to take arguably the most human character who survived Hell without becoming a demon and make him a demon anyway.  Well fuck that.  I am so upset about this. 

 

IMO, they killed our hero Dean Winchester and we will never see him again. Not as we've always known him before.  I'm in mourning.

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IMO, they killed our hero Dean Winchester and we will never see him again. Not as we've always known him before.  I'm in mourning.

 

I'm not sure that we will never see him again, but I find this a very depressing statement that the show just gave us. Dean Winchester has been fighting demons and his own inner darkness basically his whole damn life and I guess he lost. He's now become everything that he's never wanted to be. Add on top of it that it makes no real sense how this could happen and the lack of weight given to it...just makes me really, really sad--And not in the sad-and-anxious-and-worried-and-wow-they-just-blew-my-mind-and-how-will-Dean-survive-and-poor-Sam-loosing-his-brother way I think the show wants me to feel, but more in the sad-it-makes-me-embarrassed-to-be-a-fan-of-this-show plus a little sad-and-embarrassed-for-the-show mixed in. ;(

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Thinking back to s3 and Dean's long goodbye...we knew he might go to Hell.  We knew why he was behaving the way he was. We saw how it was affecting Sammy. Gods we saw him face his own demon face and fought it off.  Fuck. 

 

We were prepared even if we didn't actually believe they would follow through with it. But as it wore on, it was looking less and less likely Dean would live to see s4. But through all of that, Dean had our sympathy and empathy and we felt his fear and saw him brave in the face of the hellhounds anyway.  And when we saw him in Hell, our hearts broke, but we believed he surely would be saved.

 

This time around, I thought something bad would happen when Dean took the Mark, but I thought well at some point we would see Sammy recognize that his brother is in trouble and would have been more urgent and even possibly desperate to understand what was happening to Dean.  But instead we get some Sammy side-eyes and lectures but nothing more.  Jensen played Dean's disintegration very well, but it still lacked a sense of desperation or even really any hint that Dean would not kill Metatron. I thought he might die during the fight.  But this? A fate worse than death?  It's cruel. And I think it's the wrong choice for the character.

 

This is the one time I wish Jensen weren't one of the best actors on the planet :(.  Because of course,he'll play demon!Dean with aplomb and we will all love him for it.  But it's too painful.  I just don't see how they come back from this. 

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Having said that, i am old enough to have seen Kolchak when it first came out.

 

Me too, every Friday night.  And Ghost Story with Sebastian Cabot.   And Circle of Fear.   God, the 70s rocked.

 

After reading this thread, I've had the epiphany that I don't like Supernatural very much.   You all make great points.   Sam and Dean suck.   The demons suck.  Angels suck.   So why have I been watching it for years?

 

I guess because it's a genre I like and it's something to pass the time.    I think it's the various elements that draw me to Supernatural rather than the sum of those elements.   I grew up reading the Hardy Boys.   Watching Kolchak (already mentioned).   I like cars as silent secondary characters in TV shows.   Love the occasional use of classic rock.   The snarky in-jokes.   The ability to get meta once in awhile.   And I like the brotherly chemistry between Sam and Dean.

 

But the storylines truly blow.    I mean, that whole Leviathan season?  The producers should have issued a public apology for that.    The X-Files managed to pull off the delicate balance between monster-of-the-week and the show mythology, but on Supernatural it feels like one gets in the way of the other.

 

I suppose I tolerate the awful storylines to nosh on the other things I mentioned.  

 

Miscellaneous unpopular opinions:

 

I liked the Katie Cassidy version of Ruby.

 

I thought Abaddon was wasted as a character and her killing verged on misogyny. 

 

I never liked Jo or Ellen.

 

I think the show has suffered terribly since Kripke stopped being the showrunner.

 

Crowley is too funny for a demon, let alone King of Hell.

 

WHERE is God?  Have we ever gotten a decent explanation for why he's left the building?

 

Kevin Tran -- who really cares?

 

Director Skinner as Sam and Dean's grandfather?  Sorry, still Director Skinner.

 

Demon Dean may prove to be my point of departure.   I already broke up with Walking Dead and Sons of Anarchy this year (and if you saw the last two season-ending episodes of those shows, you know why) and you know what?  I don't miss them in the least.    What's one more show gone?

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My UO for this thread would be that I feel like the show has been heading toward demon Dean for years and, while I'm wary of how it will be handled, I am also compelled by it, for now. If I'm being honest, I'll say that Dean's ties to Hell are far more believable to me than Sam's - the show was all over the place in his season 4 demonic powers story, and season 5, with emo Lucifer, was ultimately a huge waste of time.

 

My other UO would be that I don't miss Bobby, and I grew to almost hate Bobby after season 4. I don't think he was a father to Sam and Dean, and if he was, he was a terrible one. 

 

 

I already broke up with Walking Dead and Sons of Anarchy this year (and if you saw the last two season-ending episodes of those shows, you know why)

 

For the most part I thought the Walking Dead finale was pretty good, so I guess we'd have to disagree there. 


I have been thinking that all season Jeremy Carver has been trying to recreate Being Human via Supernatural with his making Garth a sympathetic werewolf, the families of monsters in Bloodlines and trying to "cure' Crowley of his demonization to examine the humanity in monsters vs the monster in the human.  So what "better" edgier SHOCKING way than to take arguably the most human character who survived Hell without becoming a demon and make him a demon anyway.  Well fuck that.  I am so upset about this. 

 

Carver had few ties to Bloodlines. If it had been picked up he would have helped get it off the ground but had no real involvement, IIRC.

 

I think they did that with Garth mostly so they'd have a reason not to bring him back. They wrote out all the recurring characters this season, aside from Jody. Kevin died. Charlie was human and had a happy ending. Garth became a werewolf and had a happy ending.

Edited by Pete Martell

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I agree that Dean had closer ties to Hell, but given that he was the Righteous Man that broke the first seal but was still raised from Perdition and was sent to right that wrong that in essence that debt was paid. 

 

He was going to be Michael's vessel to stop the damn apocalypse but that was taken away by it being Adam. However, I think it could be argued that Dean was still the Righteous Man because he went to Sam's side and some argue that it was Dean's love for Sam that broke through Samifer or even that Dean bringing Baby with the toy soldier in the car that snapped him out of it. Either way I think Dean as Righteous Man still applies.   So for me, given that Dean did all of those things, I thought that was Dean was redeemed. 

 

What I can't figure out is what is it about Dean since all that which has made him demon-worthy now?  He spent a year in Purgatory killing monsters to save Castiel when he could have left him behind.  Was his mistake with allowing an angel to possess Sam to save Sam's life and the death of Kevin what made him demon-worthy this time?  This is why I'm having so much trouble with the demon!Dean storyline. I can't figure out any rationale that works character-wise nor for the current narrative. 

Edited by catrox14
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I don't think there's any reason to believe that Deanmon exists because he deserves it, but that this is simply the consequence of choices, no matter how well-intended those choices are.  The consequence of making a demon deal is a soul in hell, consequence of an angel wearing your meatsuit is possible blood on your hands, etc.  I don't think the writers think all that deeply about themes, but there has been a sort of consistency in portraying the consequences of hasty, emotional, well-intended deciscions.  Good intentions pave the road to hell, so to speak.  In SPNverse, literally.  The boys get into the most trouble when they act on impulse and emotion.  I wasn't too impressed with a lot of the dialogue, but I did like that they had at least one of the brothers step back and try to separate the emotion from their partnership.  It was never going to work because of the MoC which influenced Dean in ways that they didn't know to expect, which was the primary problem with Dean taking the Mark in such haste.  He had extremely good intentions -kill Abadon, save the world- but he took the mark based on emotion and with little thought of what it might mean.

 

The boys are both just inherently good people.  Flawed, yes, but they fight monsters to protect people.  Neither deserve the bad shit that happens to them.  Dean doesn't deserve to be a demon just like he didn't deserve to go to hell for wanting his brother back.  It's just a consequence of choices. 

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Short rant.  More UO about the arcs of the past six seasons.

 

I realized while I was re-watching the beginning of S9 that there's a whole other reason I dislike the angels-and-demons stories.  It's because Sam and Dean never really catch a break.  Never. Things never go their way for more than half a second.  Back in the early seasons, they'd go up against the monsters/bad guys and they'd win.  There was a sense of accomplishment in what they were doing with their lives.  Sometimes, they even looked pleased with themselves.  Remember when they used to smile sometimes?  I do. But not anymore.  Now, no matter how hard they try, they keep losing.  Sometimes, it'll look like they're winning for a moment, but then more misery comes down the pike.  They never get to be happy without having the rug pulled out from under them.  And they hardly ever even meet normal people anymore.  Everyone turns out to be mixed up with the angels or the demons.  I don't mind a little angst, I really don't.  I thought it was the degree of apocalyptic-level angst that I hated.  But it isn't, really. Not entirely. It's the fact that it's never-ending.   It's like a black hole of angst, and it grows each season.  

 

I love this show.  I love Dean and Sam and I like Castiel.  But I'm so tired of seeing the boys bloodied and tired and never on the side that wins anymore.

 

Okay, rant over.

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My UOs: 

 

I don't think Bobby was all that and a bag of chips.  He was good in the first few seasons where he was used sparingly, but after S4 he turned into the Fount of All Knowledge.  I like it better when the boys figured things out on their own.  I really started disliking him in S5 when he blamed Sam for killing Lillith and starting the apocalypse when two episodes earlier he wanted to let Sam out of the panic room, feed him demon blood and sic him on Lillith.  Hypocrisy much?

 

I like the Ghostfacers.

 

No matter how much the sideline Sam, or tell me he's a screw up, I still think he's a hero.

 

Never could stand Ellen.  She was a shrieking harpy to Sam and Dean, especially Dean, in S2, and she must have been the one who ratted Sam's powers out to Gordon.

 

Cas should have stayed dead in S4.  He's long outlived his usefulness.  He's either superpowered which makes the boys superfluous and removes any dramatic tension, or he's mortal and a hindrance to the boys.  I also don't see the 'profound bond'.  Cas has beaten the crap out of Dean more than once, and Dean seems to regard him as a useful tool at best.  Dean unceremoniously booting a newly-mortal Cas out of the bunker with nothing but the clothes on his back, not even a phony credit card or fake ID, pretty much proves my point.  And that's not even going into the whole, 'lying to the boys all S4, and letting Sam out of the panic room, then blaming the Winchesters for the apocalypse' thing.

 

I used to like Dean a lot, but he's been going downhill since S4.  Between the pity-parties, boozing, mind-wiping, rage outbursts, and general hypocrisy, I've come to dislike him.  I've been watching for Sam and the side characters.

 

I don't hate Garth or Charlie.

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Between the pity-parties, boozing

 

I've always had the admittedly weird UO about hating the boozing on this show in general. John was a lush, Bobby was a lush, Dean was a lush (so at least three of the show's five most major characters), a full 90ish% of the hunters, villains and/or soon-to-be victims we see are always pounding down the booze, Sam and Dean seem incapable of not drinking beer in every single scene---like, have they ever ONCE even ordered water or iced tea even with lunch?! Like many things about the show, it feels really lazy and repetitive to me: We GET it, show---apparently, tough guys drown their manpain in booze. They're ever-so-manly, hard-drinkin' men who want to numb their paaaaiiiin! We don't need to be reminded of it every episode for 10 seasons. Can you occasionally find some other ways to show people coping with their angst?! (Or, better yet, give us a tad less of that angst to begin with?!) And it really irks me how often throughout the series they show people---most notably Dean---hopping behind the wheel right after drinking. I can usually let that stuff go, but on this show it's such a frequent occurrence for so many years that it really bugs me. 

 

 

 

I don't hate Garth

 

Hee---I actually kind of *like* Garth. He at least attempts to provide comic relief on a show that's otherwise among the very most tiresomely, dully depressing I've ever seen. 

 

 

 

I realized while I was re-watching the beginning of S9 that there's a whole other reason I dislike the angels-and-demons stories.  It's because Sam and Dean never really catch a break.  Never. Things never go their way for more than half a second.  Back in the early seasons, they'd go up against the monsters/bad guys and they'd win.  There was a sense of accomplishment in what they were doing with their lives.  Sometimes, they even looked pleased with themselves.  Remember when they used to smile sometimes?  I do. But not anymore.  Now, no matter how hard they try, they keep losing.  Sometimes, it'll look like they're winning for a moment, but then more misery comes down the pike.  They never get to be happy without having the rug pulled out from under them.  And they hardly ever even meet normal people anymore.  Everyone turns out to be mixed up with the angels or the demons.  I don't mind a little angst, I really don't.  I thought it was the degree of apocalyptic-level angst that I hated.  But it isn't, really. Not entirely. It's the fact that it's never-ending.   It's like a black hole of angst, and it grows each season.

 

THIS! 

 

 

Never could stand Ellen.  She was a shrieking harpy to Sam and Dean, especially Dean, in S2, and she must have been the one who ratted Sam's powers out to Gordon.

 

Ha---I don't outright dislike her, but I do have the UO that she's way overrated. For me, she was just that same 'sassy, tough, yet vulnerable deep down!' types---and they always feel more like one-dimensional 'types' than layered people to me---that SPN has given us a million times. The only difference was that she was a little bit older and hence presumably not a 'threat' to become a love interest. 

Edited by mstaken

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We should have fucking known that something was wrong with Dean in 9.23 when he ordered Black Coffee and not beer.


 

!) And it really irks me how often throughout the series they show people---most notably Dean---hopping behind the wheel right after drinking. I can usually let that stuff go, but on this show it's such a frequent occurrence for so many years that it really bugs me.

 

I've seen this mentioned before but how often did we actually see this happen?  We would see the boys have the roadside chat, drink presumably one beer and the scene fades out.  Are we assuming that the boys didn't wait any time at all before getting in the car?  I presumed they lingered there for some time before getting in the car. The only time I can think that happened was in First Born when we saw several beer bottles and then Crowley comes in to whisk Dean off to find the First Blade.  I suppose it could be fanwanked that Crowley drove part of the way and Dean drove the remainder after sleeping it off. I'm not defending it but I'm legitimately not remembering any other occasions when that was shown.  And I'm not ever sure in Mother's Little Helper how Dean got to the bar.  We don't see him with car keys and Sam has Baby and we just see Dean walk out of the bar and into the night but not getting in a car.

Edited by catrox14
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I suppose it could be fanwanked that Crowley drove part of the way

Over Dean's dead body is my guess.  Just sayin'.

I think Dean walked into town in Mother's Little Helper.

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