Mcolleague

I'm confused why noone wanted Dean to know Metatron was free and has the demon tablet. Of all people, isn't this relevant to Dean, the guy Metatron personally killed recently, and the guy who is on his way to being a demon and likely to be susceptible to the tablet in some way? Also, oh Sam, whyyyyy. Why didn't he at least ask Cas for input? Why did he make such a quick decision to seek her out, and make this deal on Dean's behalf, without at least trying to find an alternative? It's different from a lot of the other bad choices that get made, it's not like if he doesn't decide this second, Dean dies on the spot. I just don't get the urgency here? They didn't have to make an immediate decision, he had time to think things through and consult with Cas? And even Crowley? Or just, find a slightly less evil witch who isn't personally invested in killing Dean? I get it from a storyline perspective that they are going for the full role reversal with Sam in Dean's shoes from last season... But this is just SUCH an illogical solution to me in terms of likely outcome. I'm also confused about Sam's change of heart. He loves to hunt now? And can't live without Dean? When did this happen again? I guess I can fanwank about his realization that he couldn't lose Dean after all, but when did he develop this love for hunting?? At some point between not completing the trials, being possessed, and his brother being cursed, he decided "hey this is an awesome gig after all"? Are we just going to reset him to Season 7, and pretend the 8-9 didn't happen? I'm glad we got some POV, but I found it reeeally jarring. I like that they (slightly) addressed The Purge conversation, that Dean stood up for himself with the, "That's not what you said last time", and I liked Charlie discussing it in terms of Sophie's Choice, that there were no good options. I also really liked the ensemble format, that they all get to interact with each other instead of having eight separate storylines, seven of which I'm uninterested in. Cas being so pissed off at Metatron about Dean, the threatening to kill him within earshot, the repeated punching... this was hilarious. :D I still wish Cas is actually allowed to interact with Dean again at some point though. Robbie tweeted about them having pizza and beer together as being like the Last Supper, which was very ominous. Upcoming episodes should be pretty exciting.

I don't mean to get snotty about this either, but as you say, we all come from different experiences, and some of these issues are hard not to take personally. My issue with your rationale in this specific situation is that your assumption of Dean's manipulative intent is based primarily on the impact of his behaviour on Sam. Sam's feelings of guilt/responsibility etc. towards Dean does not have a direct causal relationship to Dean having ulterior motives with his self destructiveness. Family members being negatively affected by someone's depression is not evidence of manipulative behaviour on their part. This kind of rationale surrounds RL depression with a lot of stigma, because this speculative attribution of malicious intent is so unspecific and can be applied to everyone with depression, and DOES, to blame them for not "choosing" to get better. I'm very uncomfortable with the implication that Dean should not have reacted to his own traumatic experiences because of how it can adversely affect Sam, that because it can hurt Sam, Dean's own grief, trauma and immense guilt can be dismissed as being invalid/irrelevant, and that he is wrong/failing for not being able to overcome it. Many other people have already given a lot of reasons for why we see Dean's intentions differently (thank you SueB for looking up the transcripts!). I'm just going to add a few more of mine: 1. Dean did not make demands for Sam to stay with him. If anything, he tried to separate from Sam (Road Trip) and drive Sam away (Sharp Teeth). The textual explanation given for them staying together was that for reasons of practicality, they needed to hunt together as hunting alone was dangerous. 2. Dean being self destructive and seeing his worth only in weaponizing himself for the greater good is not specific to this arc with Sam, it has been fairly consistent through most of the last ten years. It is heightened in Season 9, and his approach to it is more immediate/urgent - but it is not new. There is plenty of precedence for Dean exhibiting this trait and pattern of behaviour in the past when it had nothing to do with Sam. 3. There is also an explicit explanation given within universe for this new found immediacy - the discovery that the angel possessing Sam is not Ezekiel (the good angel vouched for by Cas), but an unknown psycho angel who made off with Sam's body and caused Kevin's death. Dean's change in behaviour was immediately following this specific event in the plot, and not following any confrontation with Sam. I could go on, but this comment is already long enough as it is so I'll stop here.

Late to the conversation, and sorry to jump in, but I'm very comfortable with the implications of this kind of statement. You could argue the same for most suicidal people, that there is an ulterior motive, that it's *attention seeking* and *emotional blackmail*, because it will ALWAYS have an effect on their loved ones. I'm uncomfortable with this implication that external/physical things happening to Sam - which cause Dean to drop everything and give up his own needs to fix the more immediate problem throughout the series - are easily forgiven as being out of one's control, but suicidal depression is considered within one's control and actually attributed questionable intentions. Even ASSUMING that very uncomfortable premise, I disagree that this would factor into it. Why would Dean bother to emotionally blackmail Sam with self destruction when he already believed that Sam would leave him to die (Purgatory), and when it was confirmed by Sam telling Dean explicitly that Sam would not save him? Different fans may interprets Sam's words/actions differently, but to Dean at that point in the story, this was what he believed. What would be the purpose of emotionally blackmailing someone to whom you believe you mean nothing? He didn't ask anything of Sam. When he took on the MoC, Sam wasn't even there to witness it, and after he had it, it was too late to do anything about. How can this be considered emotionally manipulative in any way? Dean felt that his part in Sam's possession and Kevin's death was beyond forgiveness and damned him. He was beyond redemption. NOTHING was going to be enough, and all he could do to even slightly pay for his sins was to give whatever he had left - his life and his soul - to do what good he could in one last burst, then he would go pay for his sins in hell where he belonged. That was the mindset as I saw it. ETA: by very comfortable I obviously meant very UNcomfortable... fail lol

I loved it. There were leaps in logic and contrivances but it was so adorable I didn't care. :D It was such a relief to have a light, fun episode, it's been a long time since we had one of those (extra long for me since I didn't enjoy the 200th ep) where the brothers are not being mean and bitter with each other, and there was *gasp* cute/funny banter. Dylan was awesome as Dean - as somebody else said, I actually didn't miss Jensen - he was legitimately a tiny cute Dean. I hope we get to keep him.

I really like Bela too, it makes so much sense that there would be opportunists in that universe who use the supernatural for profit. When she turned up, I was like, *smacks forehead*, of course! I really hate how they ended her story. She made a demon deal as an abused child to not be abused, and got a temporary reprieve before going to hell for an eternity of torture?!!? Wtf show?! I will be mad about this forever. :( ETA: And was that the first time they showed a child making a demon deal? Like, this makes no sense to me. If children can make that kind of decision in this universe, why do the crossroad demons even bother with adults at all? Just go find a toddler and be like, would you like this lollipop? You can have it if I can have your soul. And done. Argh!

I don't think they are deliberately trying to show Dean as a bad guy, I should clarify since I didn't make it clear. It ties in more with my previous comment about the erasing of the self defense. By having only Dean take responsibility for these events, and no onscreen acknowledgement of Charlie's side of it, the dialogue suggests that his actions were completely unjustified, while IMO the self defense was justified and only the loss of control afterwards was unjustified. This is problematic to me, because this kind of blanket unqualified condemnation steamrolls over the fact that you SHOULD defend yourself, violently if necessary, even against someone you care about. I think the writers are missing this point, since it's happened several times now, where the narrative condemned Dean's reactionary violence without acknowledgement of the initiation of violence towards him. I think in this episode especially, this dubious morality is voiced by Charlie's dialogue when she forgives Dean without asking forgiveness herself. I think we are meant to see Dean's actions as *dark*, and that forgiveness and self acceptance is the key to saving him, but IMO the show is much murkier/messier than the tell. So yeah, I disliked that there was a tell of the intended takeaway message which didn't reflect what I saw onscreen, and I resent that they had Charlie say these (IMO rather hypocritical) things, because she is a character I like, and her relationship with Dean is one I enjoy.

The way I see it, Dean and Charlie hurt each other under similar circumstances (i.e. under supernatural influence), with Charlie as the aggressor and Dean as a reluctant participant. Then, when it was over, only one of them (not even the aggressor, but the reluctant participant) apologizes and takes responsibility. The other accepts the apology and actually says, "Prove it", without acknowledging her own part in what happened at all. Dean is a walking ball of guilt and it's unsurprising that he would feel 100% responsible, but the fact that she doesn't contradict him and seems to have forgotten that it started with him defending himself and his family, the implication is that Dean is the only one who did something wrong, which she then magnanimously forgave. This is once again the writers using a character as a mouthpiece to manipulate audience opinion IMO, and I hate this sooooo much. I don't recall the show ever acknowledging the harm caused by loved ones not in their right minds, all the times Dean was beaten by someone wearing his father/surrogate father/brother/friend's faces. The only time I can think of is his naming Soulless Sam as an example of Sam's transgressions (which might also be just bad writing) - since the guy lied to him, manipulated him, and let him be turned into a vampire, which endangered innocents including his family - this was thoroughly condemned in the narrative (apparently pretty much driving Sam to suicide), not to mention in the fandom. If it was across the board that forgiveness is assumed towards loved ones not in their right minds, if it was across the board that people are assumed to not be responsible for their actions while under supernatural influence, I suppose I could have turned a blind eye. But this is the first time it IS acknowledged, and it was not when the person being hurt is Dean, and the insult to injury of it all is that Dean was ALSO hurt by a loved one not in their right mind in this same episode, but the writers appeared to have just... not noticed? This kind of inconsistent standard is what makes so many Dean fans so bitter. *sigh*

I did not see Dean's healthy eating as trying to emulate Sam at ALL, and am surprised so many people see it that way. I thought it was just a cute headcanon, and honestly I feel like a lot of us are latching onto any reason to like Sam more these days, since the likeable moments are kinda rare and we WANT to like him and attribute good things to him when possible since, yeah, rare... Dean's new found healthy lifestyle was explicitly called the 12 step program in dialogue, which IMO is referencing the addiction parallel (which I also find super simplistic and roll my eyes at) and has nothing to do with Sam in particular. This is also far from the first thing Dean tried, didn't he just try sating the MoC with food etc. a few episodes ago? And then went on to the cutting off arm/throwing into the sun solutions? I kinda see it as Dean throwing spaghetti against the wall since they have NO IDEA how to fix it. And as others have pointed out, eating healthy hardly did anything for Sam, since he didn't exactly kick his own addiction back in the day despite all the salads. I'm glad I don't see it that way, since that would definitely make me hate the episode even more. As it is, I only hated that Dean asked forgiveness for hurting Charlie despite being under supernatural influence while Charlie did not do the same. Many MANY people have hurt Dean under supernatural influence - like pretty much ALL of his loved ones - but forgiveness from Dean was always assumed, he was never allowed to react, and the few times he did at all he was condemned in the narrative and in parts of fandom for being *mean* and *holding a grudge*. This is especially ironic since in this very episode Charlie also hurt Dean while under supernatural influence - in fact, she was the aggressor - and no acknowledgement of that at all. Always with the double standards, Supernatural. I saw some good discussions on Tumblr about the weird stance Supernatural takes with the idea of self defence. It really glorifies NOT defending yourself against violence from loved ones, and treats not fighting back as proof of love, which has this creepy domestic violence rationale to it. This is extra evident in the last few episodes IMO, where Dean DOES defend himself, and that aspect of it - which SHOULD be considered an important factor in the events that follow - is completely glossed over and the whole response is called *evil*. So it comes across like, if you let loved ones beat you or even kill you, that's love, whereas if you fight back and defend yourself, you're a monster. Creepy. Not a fan of this at all.

The writers have been reading a lot of fan fiction... De-aging huh. This could be great or it could be fairly disastrous lol. I just have one request, and that is pleaaaase no more heavy handed sibling parallels. But there probably WILL be a lot, otherwise why pick the Hansel/Gretel siblings as MOTW. I'm gonna end up throwing my TV out the window.

I don't think they are TRYING to bash Dean either. It makes no sense for the writers to deliberately try to sabotage one of their own main characters. What I do think is that they hold assumptions about Dean as a character based on certain surface traits, and condemn his actions more harshly because of it. When less educated, less enlightened, black-and-white morality Dean, the brawn, the "cute dumb one" screws up - even while under supernatural influence - it entitles others to be *horrified*, and he is acting like "a wounded animal" (nope, the Claire parallel wasn't an anvil at ALL) and practically deserves to be put down like a rabid dog. It's interesting, the kind of language they use, the images they choose to invoke when it comes to Dean. The self defence element is completely forgotten, the compromised agency also ignored, no mentions whatsoever from his so called family/friends that this might not have been completely caused by Dean being a terrible person. I think many of the writers have this mentality about Dean, yes, most likely including Kripke, possibly also Gamble (can't comment since I'm less familiar with her seasons, having hated them), but it's extra evident with some of them, especially Deadly Duo who have commented explicitly on the "born killer" business.

Because when other characters do sketchy things, like most recently say, tempt a man to sell his soul and risk the life of an innocent woman (without even being under supernatural influence), it isn't condemned as harshly in the narrative. Dean basically calls himself a cold blooded killer, and noone in the room disagrees. They can barely meet his eyes. I mean, I'm not expecting them to be happy Dean brutally massacres a room full of people, but the reaction seemed pretty over the top to me, considering all of their histories and the fact that Dean was under supernatural influence at the time. And they didn't even feel a little bad that they left the barely controlled, stab-happy guy alone with people who attacked him? Especially since Dean was in the situation in the first place because Castiel had asked him for help? -sigh- I'm barely able to fanwank it into making sense in my head. It feels so overdramatic. And OOC. Like, it's actually jarring to me how... distant? indifferent? Cas seems this season. I distinctly remember this relationship going a little differently last season, a little more concern/support/understanding even in the face of Dean's screw ups. I'm really starting to wonder about this in terms of authorial intent. Is this part of the deliberate toning down of the Dean/Cas relationship and the amping up of the brobond, to discourage the shippers and make sure Sam is the one who saves Dean? This, on the other hand, I 100% agree with. To me, there's no point any of TFW acting shocked about this kind of thing anymore, all I can do is roll my eyes when I see it. They kill innocent human vessels without a second thought ALL the time. At least this time it was a roomful of rapists/rape enablers. This is a GOOD day.

Oh my god Dean. :( It was such a short clip, but SUCH a stab in the heart. Jensen is an incredible actor. Dean being horrified and feeling responsible despite supernatural influence etc. is very in character, and I have no problem with it, but I have to agree that it seems kind of hypocritical at this point for Sam/Cas to be *shocked and appalled*, since it's not like they haven't all done worse. This just comes across as being really contrived, and is probably because the episode is written by Nepotism Duo, with the "born killer" view of Dean as a character. It's unfortunate that they are still allowed to write mytharc episodes.

I'm sure I would have liked this episode better if it was not the mid-season finale, and if the promos did not bait so much about this being a MoC and mytharc heavy episode. This was a MOTW at best, but... with no monsters or yano, anything supernatural? Have the writers given up on the mythology completely, is Supernatural some kind of a family drama now? There was ten seconds of Dean on his killing spree and that was it for the mytharc. I know they said the storylines this season were going to be personal, and I generally LIKE character/relationship stuff, but this was ridiculously terrible pacing and quite a disappointment. I'm glad Castiel actually has a watchable storyline for once, and I'm glad we got Claire's POV on Cas/angel possessions in general - I maintain that there is not a single case of legitimate informed consent with angel possessions on this show, and while I don't expect them to explicitly admit this, I'm glad we got to at least see the consequences to their taking human hosts (intended or otherwise). But why is the mid-season finale episode a character based, Cas-centric episode that did nothing to advance the mytharc, and gave no new information whatsoever? This was so extremely anticlimatic. I'm too annoyed to even really analyze the character elements in this story, which I might have liked if it was placed somewhere else in the season. Not sure what to think about Dabb as a writer after watching this. I thought Bloodlines was a one time fluke, but who knows. Ugh.

Unsurprisingly, the promo baited with MoC!Dean scenes, and it got about 2 minutes of actual screentime. Unimpressed.

Brought over from Spoilers thread: Hmmm, I dunno if I agree with this. I don't think in general people forgive or not forgive on the spot regardless of cause. In fact, I think this is especially complicated by family/friends, when they do something you consider unforgivable but out of love end up forgiving anyway. In these cases I think it takes time to be forgiven, it takes effort, change, and gradual earning back of trust. At that point in the story late S6 to S7, Cas had done things that hurt Dean considerably, not least because of how much Dean trusted him (and defended him to the others). On the personal level, Cas physically harmed Sam, Cas working with Crowley indirectly contributed to Lisa/Ben getting hurt and Dean losing them, and Cas lied to their face which all of them saw as betrayal. On the bigger picture level, opening up Purgatory, releasing the Leviathan, becoming Godstiel and going on a killing rampage were... pretty bad things for the human race? :/ I'm not saying this to blame Cas, and I'm very sympathetic to the fact that he was choosing between crap options, but these are things Dean would have been very hurt by - and would consider unforgivable coming from non-family/friends (and would probably gank right then and there) - which is why I don't think it's unreasonable that he didn't forgive Cas immediately, or that Cas tried to earn his forgiveness. It doesn't effect my view of their relationship as being close/genuine at all. When they got stuck in Purgatory together, Dean spent a year doing everything in his power to get Cas out, and Season 8 onward they were pretty much fine with each other (without Gamble trying to write Cas off the show). I dunno, were you referring to a specific incidence I'm not thinking of? I am not a shipper, and they could probably write you essays, which I won't. As a Deangirl, I am inclined to like the characters who are good to Dean. With Cas there's a level of intensity/complexity to the relationship which I like. It's not a regular friendship since the first time Dean sees Cas, he stabs him... lol. They were essentially on different sides of a war, they had majorly conflicting goals/interests/ideologies, and despite all that they ended up caring about each other deeply. Cas pulled Dean out of hell - after the first thirty years, I might add - where he saw Dean at his worst and never threw it in his face, and instead in Dean saw the best of humanity and through Dean came to understand that humanity deserves to be saved. They have faced horrible odds and risked their lives for each other. In Cas' words, "We've been through much together, you and I". Yeah there are a lot of things that are quite messed up between the two of them too, but I'm not really watching this show for balanced reasonable people making good decisions. :)