Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Smad]

I would simply ask her what right she has to disallow the constitutional right of freedom of speech.

[Casseiopeia]

Isn't there an option to make your twitter account private? She should be able to block any posts she doesn't want to see in any case. I think she is a bit of a drama queen that likes to play victim.  

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Isn't there an option to make your twitter account private? She should be able to block any posts she doesn't want to see in any case. I think she is a bit of a drama queen that likes to play victim.  

Yahtzee.

Yes, you can lock your twitter account and then you pick and choose requests to follow you, usually from your friends and like-minded sychophants, etc. However, in doing so her numbers would plummet and her bait wouldn't get the clicks she so desperately desires to make herself feel fake important.

[Lilyshadow33]

On 12/21/2019 at 5:57 PM, FlickChick said:

One more thing - I'd like an opinion from the binge watchers here. How did Supernatural do in binge watching vs. other shows? I, personally, don't enjoy binge watching but I have a feeling that most young people do. Is it easier to binge on current writing vs. earlier seasons' writing? What say you?

Hey, binge watcher here! I binged Seasons 2-14 over the course of a few weeks this past April. I had been watching Season 1 casually with my sister but got HOOKED by In My Time of Dying. I've binged other shows before and since, but no other show had me glued to the screen 24/7, literally not sleeping or eating or leaving my room (I was only taking two classes that semester so luckily I had a lot of free time). I binged the later seasons with the same intensity as the earlier ones, but I will say that I noticed a significant change in quality at the beginning of Season 8 and then again at the beginning of Season 12. 

I don't know if this is because of binging, but I loved Season 3, loved the Gamble years, loved Season 10, and thought 13 and 14 were fine.* It was only later after rewatching and reading other people's posts that I realized how much the Dabb era had ruined the show, at least for me personally (I still love 3, 6, 7, and 10). I kinda wished I had gone into 15 less aware, maybe I would like it better.  

*These aren't my favorite seasons, but I'm pointing them out as ones that I might have viewed differently had I not been binging

Edited December 23, 2019 by Lilyshadow33

[Tatiana orr]

Ysam is so annoying in season 6 ughhhhhh the whole I don’t have my soul so im careless and ignorant have no empathy . Dean didn’t have his soul for a whole year and spent 50years in hell and he didn’t act like this not one time. It’s just so annoyinggggggggg. I wish he stayed in the damn cage with Lucifer!!!! 

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, Tatiana orr said:

Dean didn’t have his soul for a whole year

When was Dean without his soul?

[hypnotoad]

Quote

One more thing - I'd like an opinion from the binge watchers here. How did Supernatural do in binge watching vs. other shows? I, personally, don't enjoy binge watching but I have a feeling that most young people do. Is it easier to binge on current writing vs. earlier seasons' writing? What say you?

I am not a young person butI do enjoy binge watching! I zoomed through seasons 1-7 of this show. Not all seasons were created equal and not all episodes were great but overall stand up to any number of shows I've binged.

Then came seasons 8 and 9. Yikes. It took me forever to get through those seasons. Just awful. 10-13 weren't close to 1-7 quality but were fairly painless though largely forgettable. Season 14 has brought me back to pain. I was on track to finish all the seasons before 15 started and watch it live. Season 14 derailed that plan. I have 6 episodes to go in 14. I will finish it and I will watch 15 but it does not sound promising.

As to the twitter person referenced above: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Quote

Dean didn’t have his soul for a whole year

I too do not remember Dean with no soul. I actually didn't mind soulless Sam - he amused me at times.

[Bessie]

4 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I too do not remember Dean with no soul. I actually didn't mind soulless Sam - he amused me at times.

The fairy episode is one of my all-time favorites. Dean and soulless Sam make me laugh every time. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/21/2019 at 1:38 AM, 7kstar said:

If he was all that...why did they (the actors) decide to quit?  Killed the show because the actors wouldn't go on.  I do guess they are ignoring the major fact if the show had been cancelled in the earlier years, well they wouldn't even have Dabbnatural.

I think the biggest issue for some, is storytelling has changed a lot since 2005.  So of course the younger ones, enjoy the more recent stories as it moves faster.  If they had to watch Tv before 90's they would die.  lol

Viewership is down too so if they were chasing better numbers by writing for Just Jack they failed.

[7kstar]

Was driving back home.  What was on TNT...Season 1 of Supernatural.  The part that stuck out, how much fun Dean was...and all the questions we wanted to know.  Wished I felt the same about now.

Also I know this is has been talked to death, but in the ep Dean put down the college boy brother.  For those that are younger, it struck me as the times I had co workers put me down for having a college degree when they felt I couldn't do something as well as they could without it.  There was a time when folks didn't get a college degree.  I think this is the joke that they are intending to use. 

Dean represents the average high school grad vs the college smart student.  This was before we went to everyone must get a college degree.  I think today if you didn't experience this, it seems as Dean is mad at Sam for getting a degree and leaving him.  It didn't feel that way when I watched it today.  JMV.  🙂

[gonzosgirrl]

I think, coming from S1 Dean, 'collrge boy' had nothing to do with education and everything to do with Sam leaving. 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think, coming from S1 Dean, 'collrge boy' had nothing to do with education and everything to do with Sam leaving. 

I agree. I don’t recall Dean’s remarks about Sam and Stanford focusing on anything besides the fact that he left them to go.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. I don’t recall Dean’s remarks about Sam and Stanford focusing on anything besides the fact that he left them to go.

Oh, he teased and/ or derided Sam's college experience to Sam, but he also bragged on him to others many times. IMO it was all about Sam leaving and virtually ignoring him for a couple years, and the (then) constant reminders that he still intended to leave again as soon as they got the demon. I believe he would have acted the same regardless of the reason Sam left (college, a job, etc.) 

[ILoveReading]

Wrong thread.

Edited January 8, 2020 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-the-trap-images-description/201532/

Promo pics for 9.  Ugh.  I don't like Berens when he writers arguments between the characters because he never presents an accurate picture.

I have serious doubts about Eileen surviving this ep.

Taking this to bitter spoilers.

[trudysmom]

Sam/Jared look excruciatingly thin in that picture, almost gaunt. unhealthy.  Maybe it's to show how stressed they are, that he's getting thin to the point his clothes are hanging off of  him, that they don't dress him in clothes that fit.  He just doesn't look good, to me.  Concerning.

[FlickChick]

23 hours ago, trudysmom said:

Sam/Jared look excruciatingly thin in that picture, almost gaunt. unhealthy.  Maybe it's to show how stressed they are, that he's getting thin to the point his clothes are hanging off of  him, that they don't dress him in clothes that fit.  He just doesn't look good, to me.  Concerning.

IMO, Jared looked emaciated before he took up running marathons. Now it's becoming so obvious even the wardrobe can't hide it. I wish he would eat more and run less.

[auntvi]

Jared looks lanky to me, not emaciated, that's just his natural state. Maybe he seems thin because he's not trying to bulk up anymore.  Look at him compared to Jensen in picture #5 - he's huge.

 

[Bobcatkitten]

Both Jared and Jensen are way leaner than they used to be. But I have to agree that Jared's is troubling. They don't life anymore I don't think - or at least like they used to pre-kids. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

Jared looks lanky to me, not emaciated, that's just his natural state. Maybe he seems thin because he's not trying to bulk up anymore.  Look at him compared to Jensen in picture #5 - he's huge.

 

He's huge in the sense he's tall, but even with multiple shirts and a jacket, he looks thin. It's not only his body, his face is borderline gaunt.  These are production photos, so they are in full make-up. In candid photos, he looks much thinner (face) and, IMO, not good. No body shaming or criticism intended - I genuinely am concerned for him.

[Airmid]

I'm going to turn this back to bitterness about the show, other than saying as someone who personally does half marathons and is a 100% healthy weight, it is exceptionally frustrating to get negative comments from people who don't know me all that well about my health/well-being because to them I don't look the same as I did when I weighed more, even if that old weight/lifestyle wasn't a good thing for me.

So, I got around to watching the last aired episode. It's the only one I watched this season. I know, slow here, but after S13 I was pretty much done. I kept up with summaries and the like but I don't believe I watched anything in S14. If I did, I don't remember and I don't feel like I missed much. 

Talk about dismissing the boys hell experiences even more. Adam's only been in hell ten years, regardless? Wow. Guess Dean and Sam suck. Hopefully the actual time difference is addressed at some point.

There was something about this episode that pissed me off, but it took a while to figure it out. It wasn't the worthless time wasting in hell. Not that it was needed at all. The boys could have talked on a street corner about talking to Michael, been overheard by a demon, and then we could have Rowena just go to them in all her glory [and Ruth Connell did look fine here] and simply tell them that since she views Michael as a threat she's been trying to track him but no such luck. Would have spared us an embarrassing fight scene. 

It wasn't Jake Abel's depiction of Michael. In fact, I liked how he wasn't asking Michael to just make/do things for him and that Michael actually talked to him. Just because one is very powerful doesn't mean they can't be reliant on someone far smaller than them in a more balanced way.

I didn't have a problem with Sam going out to help with the hunter situation as he was just sitting on his ass at that time and nothing was really going down, even if it was to just further this asinine plot [no, I am not a fan of Chuck being this big of a jerk]. How was he supposed to know that Mike was going to snap open a rift to Purgatory? And how does that work? Can monsters get out? Only humans/angels? Maybe they should have asked.

I was a bit pissed that Dean didn't straight up tell Adam that he didn't have a way to save him. Dean went for him when he was kidnapped, apologized to him at Stull, and tried to barter with Death to get him out. Sure, they had a way to drag an archangel to limbo from the Cage, but nothing ever said they could do the same with a human to get them out and they all thought Michael was nuts, as confirmed [dishonestly] by Chuck. It wouldn't surprise me if Dean thought his youngest brother was shredded by that point. Short of begging Chuck to save him, how exactly was Dean supposed to get him out?

But what really pissed me off is that it was Castiel that contacted Michael. It was Castiel that confronted him and gave him his memories. It should have been Dean. We should have had a short reveal that Michael was bouncing around then Dean leaving and praying to him to shag his ass over because Michael would have probably come and had a few words about him learning the art of prayer to him at that point. Dean could have given his memories over causing Michael to put Adam in the driver's seat, Adam would have learned that Dean didn't forget him, and they all could have gone back to the Bunker and done whatever till Michael put his life back together. I can see Michael still being unwilling to help do things to Chuck. Just because you find out that your parent does crap things doesn't mean you instantly stop loving them.

Actually, if they had gone that route, during Michael's freak-out they could have learned a little about what happened with Adam, that it was complete isolation outside of Lucifer's yammering [and who needs that], that it was a long ass time down there and they helped each other out, forming a friendship. Plus, it would have given at least Dean an actual friendly ally. Hell, Michael may even suggest to Dean that he should talk to Amara given his history with her but why do that? That takes plotting and character development and using storylines that exist instead of relying on broad characterizations and clichés and stupid jokes at the expense of your main heroes.

I just can't with this show, even if I do keep track of it because of all the years I did view it live. I dread whatever ending they come up with.

EDIT: Almost forgot - I find it exceptionally stupid that the spell to lock up Chuck like Amara has ingredients that are available to humans in any way and are just laying around in the bunker. Sure, holy power used trillions of years ago to lock up a very ancient cosmic force = available just down the hall to the right, show.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Airmid

[Casseiopeia]

23 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Mike was going to snap open a rift to Purgatory?

And wouldn't that have been useful to Raphael when he was trying to open a rift into Purgatory in S6.

[Airmid]

44 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

And wouldn't that have been useful to Raphael when he was trying to open a rift into Purgatory in S6.

Using a reaper to get into Purgatory like they did in S8 for the backdoor to hell would have also been useful knowledge to have in S6. Though, in outside lore, Michael does hold the keys to heaven and hell, so him having a way to open Purgatory [i.e. having the key] makes a little sense, sort of, maybe, if you squint. 

It's a reoccurring pattern that all the trials all the characters went through suddenly get ret-conned into the easiest thing in the world because reasons.

I try to keep my head canon that Raphael/Castiel/Crowley needed the gate instead of a door/rift/whatever because they needed to suck souls, not travel there. 

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Airmid said:

Using a reaper to get into Purgatory like they did in S8 for the backdoor to hell would have also been useful knowledge to have in S6. Though, in outside lore, Michael does hold the keys to heaven and hell, so him having a way to open Purgatory [i.e. having the key] makes a little sense, sort of, maybe, if you squint. 

It's a reoccurring pattern that all the trials all the characters went through suddenly get ret-conned into the easiest thing in the world because reasons.

I try to keep my head canon that Raphael/Castiel/Crowley needed the gate instead of a door/rift/whatever because they needed to suck souls, not travel there. 

Archangels also have different powers and Mi6is the oldest and most powerful. Only Lucifer has the red eyes. Only Raphael emitted electricity. Gabriel had his learned magic. Biblically he was God's voice. I don't remember if he had a special angelic power on the show.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Airmid said:

I'm going to turn this back to bitterness about the show, other than saying as someone who personally does half marathons and is a 100% healthy weight, it is exceptionally frustrating to get negative comments from people who don't know me all that well about my health/well-being because to them I don't look the same as I did when I weighed more, even if that old weight/lifestyle wasn't a good thing for me.

So, I got around to watching the last aired episode. It's the only one I watched this season. I know, slow here, but after S13 I was pretty much done. I kept up with summaries and the like but I don't believe I watched anything in S14. If I did, I don't remember and I don't feel like I missed much. 

Talk about dismissing the boys hell experiences even more. Adam's only been in hell ten years, regardless? Wow. Guess Dean and Sam suck. Hopefully the actual time difference is addressed at some point.

There was something about this episode that pissed me off, but it took a while to figure it out. It wasn't the worthless time wasting in hell. Not that it was needed at all. The boys could have talked on a street corner about talking to Michael, been overheard by a demon, and then we could have Rowena just go to them in all her glory [and Ruth Connell did look fine here] and simply tell them that since she views Michael as a threat she's been trying to track him but no such luck. Would have spared us an embarrassing fight scene. 

It wasn't Jake Abel's depiction of Michael. In fact, I liked how he wasn't asking Michael to just make/do things for him and that Michael actually talked to him. Just because one is very powerful doesn't mean they can't be reliant on someone far smaller than them in a more balanced way.

I didn't have a problem with Sam going out to help with the hunter situation as he was just sitting on his ass at that time and nothing was really going down, even if it was to just further this asinine plot [no, I am not a fan of Chuck being this big of a jerk]. How was he supposed to know that Mike was going to snap open a rift to Purgatory? And how does that work? Can monsters get out? Only humans/angels? Maybe they should have asked.

I was a bit pissed that Dean didn't straight up tell Adam that he didn't have a way to save him. Dean went for him when he was kidnapped, apologized to him at Stull, and tried to barter with Death to get him out. Sure, they had a way to drag an archangel to limbo from the Cage, but nothing ever said they could do the same with a human to get them out and they all thought Michael was nuts, as confirmed [dishonestly] by Chuck. It wouldn't surprise me if Dean thought his youngest brother was shredded by that point. Short of begging Chuck to save him, how exactly was Dean supposed to get him out?

But what really pissed me off is that it was Castiel that contacted Michael. It was Castiel that confronted him and gave him his memories. It should have been Dean. We should have had a short reveal that Michael was bouncing around then Dean leaving and praying to him to shag his ass over because Michael would have probably come and had a few words about him learning the art of prayer to him at that point. Dean could have given his memories over causing Michael to put Adam in the driver's seat, Adam would have learned that Dean didn't forget him, and they all could have gone back to the Bunker and done whatever till Michael put his life back together. I can see Michael still being unwilling to help do things to Chuck. Just because you find out that your parent does crap things doesn't mean you instantly stop loving them.

Actually, if they had gone that route, during Michael's freak-out they could have learned a little about what happened with Adam, that it was complete isolation outside of Lucifer's yammering [and who needs that], that it was a long ass time down there and they helped each other out, forming a friendship. Plus, it would have given at least Dean an actual friendly ally. Hell, Michael may even suggest to Dean that he should talk to Amara given his history with her but why do that? That takes plotting and character development and using storylines that exist instead of relying on broad characterizations and clichés and stupid jokes at the expense of your main heroes.

I just can't with this show, even if I do keep track of it because of all the years I did view it live. I dread whatever ending they come up with.

EDIT: Almost forgot - I find it exceptionally stupid that the spell to lock up Chuck like Amara has ingredients that are available to humans in any way and are just laying around in the bunker. Sure, holy power used trillions of years ago to lock up a very ancient cosmic force = available just down the hall to the right, show.

I agree that it should have been Dean. Unfortunately these writers simply will not write for Dean at this point even when it is the most logical, well reasoned plot point. They are textbook examples of how not to write.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/8/2020 at 3:12 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Taking this to bitter spoilers.

Remember when Purgatory was shot in that cool sepia tone filter so that one understood things were black and white there. Kill or be killed. Suddenly it's so lush and green and gorgeous.

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:46 PM, 7kstar said:

Oh I can agree with you.  They like watching people closer to their age. 

What I've seen from teaching young people, that most don't want to think about it.  It needs to grab their attention quickly.   So much that I've had students pick out a script only to later find that as they tried to work it up, it sucked.  What was funny in the moment in the first reading didn't carry through.  They weren't willing to invest in trying to figure out how to make something work.   Better scripts are much easier to have multiple ways of portraying the characters.  Poor ones require major work to do the same thing and are difficult to visualize into action. 

So I'm not too surprised, I guess they watch Supernatural the way I watch soaps.  Only the storylines I like and I fast forward the rest.  Since soaps are simple storylines for the most part...it's not that hard to do.

Yes. They think writing for Just Jack is pleasing their "Riverdale" audience however they have misjudged that this is their audience based on dropping viewership rather than increasing viewership since he was introduced. This show was steady as a rock until they treated its stars like bit players. 

 

[FlickChick]

9 hours ago, Airmid said:

I was a bit pissed that Dean didn't straight up tell Adam that he didn't have a way to save him. Dean went for him when he was kidnapped, apologized to him at Stull, and tried to barter with Death to get him out. Sure, they had a way to drag an archangel to limbo from the Cage, but nothing ever said they could do the same with a human to get them out and they all thought Michael was nuts, as confirmed [dishonestly] by Chuck. It wouldn't surprise me if Dean thought his youngest brother was shredded by that point. Short of begging Chuck to save him, how exactly was Dean supposed to get him out?

Unfortunately, this has been going on since Dabb took over. You would have seen this lack of Dean's presence/storyline/older strengths, anything positive really if you had continued watching from S12 on. In order for "Dean" to tell Adam about his efforts to save him, "Jensen" would have had to ignore the script and say what he wanted (probably only to be cut later). It's truly become so obvious that they won't write anything of worth for Dean, that many of us feel that Jensen is the originator of pulling the plug on the series. He didn't want to watch his character be ignored/made fun of/act stupid any more, so he said "enough". And Jared probably didn't like some of the writing for Sam as well. End of Supernatural.

[Airmid]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Unfortunately, this has been going on since Dabb took over. You would have seen this lack of Dean's presence/storyline/older strengths, anything positive really if you had continued watching from S12 on. In order for "Dean" to tell Adam about his efforts to save him, "Jensen" would have had to ignore the script and say what he wanted (probably only to be cut later). It's truly become so obvious that they won't write anything of worth for Dean, that many of us feel that Jensen is the originator of pulling the plug on the series. He didn't want to watch his character be ignored/made fun of/act stupid any more, so he said "enough". And Jared probably didn't like some of the writing for Sam as well. End of Supernatural.

It's not that I haven't noticed this - though I do remember how excited some were over here about the idea of AUMichael!Dean at the end of S13. All I could think was 'wonder if it will las two episodes or three'. I only watched piecemeal of 13 and had so little interest in anything going on, skipped S14 [though I do remember watching something of it now concerning Nick so maybe there was an episode or two in there for me, shows how well it stuck].

While Dean's lack of storyline/agency was a big factor, it was just the bad writing all the way around that finally did me in. I had zero interest in Jack [no shade to the actor here] because of how it was handled [or really existed in the first place]. No interest in Sam. Mary, wished she had stayed dead and a better character. Dean wasn't a blip on the radar.

It's been a frustration of mine for years that no one had paid any mind to what came before and this was a good example of that. We spent years of not hearing anything about Adam and then when he does show up not only do we get a decrease in hell time across the board, but a complete disregard for what either brother did to try to get him at any time.

You'd think they'd have something stronger for fans who had dropped by the wayside but heard of Adam's and our Michael's return. You'd think it would be more interesting. But at the end of the day I don't think that the biggest thing that pissed me off about this episode - that it should have been Dean to go to Michael and not Cas - even had to do with the writers not writing for Dean. It was just careless, lazy writing that Cas was an angel so therefore could be used as a plot device later to sink his memories into Michael easily and they didn't have to think real hard. 

The whole thing was just a reminder of why I don't watch and why just paying attention to past plot points could have made things better, but the writers won't do that, for any character. It's been that way for a long time now, and at this point, for me, even if Dean's the one that gets screwed the most via writing, that doesn't mean the whole crap pile suddenly smells sweeter - IMO.

I've just been watching since the start, so to the bitter end I guess. 

[FlickChick]

@Airmid, I truly feel your pain. I've watched since the beginning as well and it's so hard to witness the epic decline of everything that brought me to the show. Also some more bad news - regulars like Cas and Jack are usually contracted to be in 12 episodes. A version of Jack has been in three this season. Get ready for the back nine, which will essentially end the series. So I guess it's the Jack-Show going to the end. Blech!

[Airmid]

@FlickChick This is why I rely on yall to watch for me so I can sort through the episode reaction threads and some summaries online without getting too depressed. Depending on what happens in the last couple of episodes I'll probably watch at least that to see the series end when they hit Netflix. 

And then probably never touch the Dabb years again. 

[S Cook Productions]

I think this is an UO, at least on this forum...but I really want to see Misha get another acting gig. I'm selfish like that. I'm glad that he wants to write poetry, and take a sabbatical, and spend more time with family....but I really want to see him on another show after SPN. I do NOT want him to go into politics instead. LOL, I sound like a selfish jerk- but like I said, i'm just expressing my UO. I enjoy him as an actor. I loved the way he portrayed all of those different versions of Cas. He arguably got to portray more of a range of personalities than anyone did on SPN. I think he was lucky, and I loved seeing it.

I will likely watch "Walker", and I already watch "The Boys", so I'm over the moon about Jensen joining that. Now I need for Misha to take something else! Ok, I vented...

[Dodo2y]

Now, mine, maybe unpopular opinion is that i really hate Alex (former vampire), her excuse is she was just a child, but lots of people got murdered because of her. Like that guy that saved her from being chased, he became vampire and murdered his family because of her, and nobody seems to care about that inocent guy. She just says sorry, and Winchesters should have killed her in the first time. I hate her guts really.

[Jonesy]

Regarding Dabb--I think he's been a good showrunner(but yes, imperfect), don't think he mishandled Dean and Sam as characters AND DO think the boys have still been the clear heroes of the show despite them letting others shine too.  So yeah, I disagree with most of this board--lol.  And looking forward to the final 7 shows and the finale of a truly epic voyage of 15 years.

[ukgirl71]

Well, we’re civilised enough here on this board to agree to disagree 😍

[gonzosgirrl]

54 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Regarding Dabb--I think he's been a good showrunner(but yes, imperfect), don't think he mishandled Dean and Sam as characters AND DO think the boys have still been the clear heroes of the show despite them letting others shine too.  So yeah, I disagree with most of this board--lol.  And looking forward to the final 7 shows and the finale of a truly epic voyage of 15 years.

If you go on nothing else but characterization and canon, taking emotion or character preference out of the equation, that is perhaps Badd's biggest failure. There are countless examples of character assassination throughout this board that you so disagree with. From both sides (Dean or Sam). There is character growth, and then there is straight up butchering for the sake of the story they wanted to tell in any given episode. It has been at it's worst when done to prop up a secondary character such as Jack or New!Mary. And no, Badd didn't personally write all the crap, but as showrunner, he is damn well responsible for it.

[Jonesy]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If you go on nothing else but characterization and canon, taking emotion or character preference out of the equation, that is perhaps Badd's biggest failure. There are countless examples of character assassination throughout this board that you so disagree with. From both sides (Dean or Sam). There is character growth, and then there is straight up butchering for the sake of the story they wanted to tell in any given episode. It has been at it's worst when done to prop up a secondary character such as Jack or New!Mary. And no, Badd didn't personally write all the crap, but as showrunner, he is damn well responsible for it.

Yeah, yeah i've seen the grievances...said he's not perfect but also say what brought up not big to me.  If it bothers you, fine.

[Terese]

On 9/2/2020 at 11:20 AM, Dodo2y said:

Now, mine, maybe unpopular opinion is that i really hate Alex (former vampire), her excuse is she was just a child, but lots of people got murdered because of her. Like that guy that saved her from being chased, he became vampire and murdered his family because of her, and nobody seems to care about that inocent guy. She just says sorry, and Winchesters should have killed her in the first time. I hate her guts really.

Although she was not a vampire, she did lure many to their deaths. Her actions were excused because she was young and could not help it. I never accepted that. If she were a toddler placed alone in a playground to lure concerned adults, then certainly. However, she knew what she was doing. She could have refused, run away. Additionally, she adopted this haughty, superior attitude. 

[ahrtee]

On 9/2/2020 at 12:20 PM, Dodo2y said:

Now, mine, maybe unpopular opinion is that i really hate Alex (former vampire), her excuse is she was just a child, but lots of people got murdered because of her. Like that guy that saved her from being chased, he became vampire and murdered his family because of her, and nobody seems to care about that inocent guy. She just says sorry, and Winchesters should have killed her in the first time. I hate her guts really.

I would say Stockholm Syndrome (or "battered wife" syndrome) myself.  She was taken as a child and told that that was the only way to help her family, and without them she would die/starve/be left alone.  She did, after all, let them feed on herself when no other food was available.  

The fact that she (eventually) did recognize it was wrong and hated doing it was a good sign, and that she did run away (which is how she wound up at Jody's), and never backslid once she was safe, should earn her Sam's forgiveness, at least, based on his past sympathies.  

Personally, I like her better than the other WSs who seem to me to be self-absorbed and kind of whiney, but I can see the other viewpoints.  

[Terese]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I would say Stockholm Syndrome (or "battered wife" syndrome) myself.  She was taken as a child and told that that was the only way to help her family, and without them she would die/starve/be left alone.  She did, after all, let them feed on herself when no other food was available.  

The fact that she (eventually) did recognize it was wrong and hated doing it was a good sign, and that she did run away (which is how she wound up at Jody's), and never backslid once she was safe, should earn her Sam's forgiveness, at least, based on his past sympathies.  

Personally, I like her better than the other WSs who seem to me to be self-absorbed and kind of whiney, but I can see the other viewpoints.  

Perhaps, although many are able to develop and adhere to their own moral compass regardless of what they are told and how they are raised. Additionally, what early teen doesn't balk and rebel with respect to their family's demands. "Go clean your room." "No!" "Go lure these men to their deaths." "No!"

I would accept Stockholm Syndrome if that aspect of her personality was even hinted at let alone developed.

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, Terese said:

Perhaps, although many are able to develop and adhere to their own moral compass regardless of what they are told and how they are raised. Additionally, what early teen doesn't balk and rebel with respect to their family's demands. "Go clean your room." "No!" "Go lure these men to their deaths." "No!"

I would accept Stockholm Syndrome if that aspect of her personality was even hinted at let alone developed.

I'm no fan of anything to do with the Wayward Whatevers, but there is a pretty big gray area between 'Go clean your room or you're grounded' and 'Go lure these men or we'll kill you and everyone you love'. Not to mention, you know, vampires. 

[Terese]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm no fan of anything to do with the Wayward Whatevers, but there is a pretty big gray area between 'Go clean your room or you're grounded' and 'Go lure these men or we'll kill you and everyone you love'. Not to mention, you know, vampires. 

Of course. But, they are either controlling her with family loyalty or threats? Alex has not had her personality developed as a submissive victim. In fact, the one flashback we see from the Don't Forget About Us Episode, shows her expression to be quite cold-hearted. Additionally, Alex is portrayed as strong and able to give as good as she takes, while exchanging snarky remarks with Claire and demanding that everyone stop talking about monsters. These are not the behaviors and actions of a submissive person or of passive, entrenched acceptance. No doubt, she did adopt the cold-hearted compassionless aura of her family. And I still believe that most, certainly as strong as Alex is presented, are capable of an ability to understand right from wrong and act on that.

And yeah, Wayward Sisters. Although, Jody and Donna could have been a good show. Or at least I always loved whenever they appeared.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

Perhaps, although many are able to develop and adhere to their own moral compass regardless of what they are told and how they are raised. Additionally, what early teen doesn't balk and rebel with respect to their family's demands. "Go clean your room." "No!" "Go lure these men to their deaths." "No!"

I would accept Stockholm Syndrome if that aspect of her personality was even hinted at let alone developed.

Quote

 

CODY [holding up keys and unlocking the door]

Cop sure was in a hurry to check out that "B&E" I faked. Barely even saw me coming. I keep telling you – you can run and you can hide, but we will always find you.

 

This tells me that this is not the first time she tried to get away.

Quote

 

DEAN

Eight years is a long time for a human to live with vampires without getting killed or turned.

 

I think she was 16, so she'd been with them since she was 8.  She was brought up to do this.

Quote

 

MAMA

You thought what? That I'd hurt you? Kill you? I would never hurt you. Not my baby girl, not my sweet Alex. How could you even think that? Baby, why did you do it? Why did you run from us?

ALEX

I love you, mama. I do. I just – I couldn't take it anymore. The blood and the death, the sounds of their screams. I just... I can't do it anymore. And the way I feel afterwards, the guilt...I'd rather die than feel that way again.

 

 

 

[Terese]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

This tells me that this is not the first time she tried to get away.

I think she was 16, so she'd been with them since she was 8.  She was brought up to do this.

 

 

She knew this was wrong. At 8 or 10 or 16, she knew. She kept doing it. Being raised to help kill people is not a pass. Take it out of the context of the supernatural and apply it to any repeat felon, be it theft or murder, it is not okay. I would hesitate to go as far as to say she should take her own life to stop it. But, I can say her life is no more valuable than the ones she took. That one guy she helped turn killed his family. 

[ahrtee]

18 minutes ago, Terese said:

She knew this was wrong. At 8 or 10 or 16, she knew. She kept doing it. Being raised to help kill people is not a pass. Take it out of the context of the supernatural and apply it to any repeat felon, be it theft or murder, it is not okay. I would hesitate to go as far as to say she should take her own life to stop it. But, I can say her life is no more valuable than the ones she took. That one guy she helped turn killed his family. 

I hope you're never on the jury for any trial that might have "extenuating circumstances" as a defense.  

[Terese]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I hope you're never on the jury for any trial that might have "extenuating circumstances" as a defense.  

There are different sentences depending on mitigating circumstances, even probation. Guilt varies and doesn't automatically mean punished to the fullest extent. We do, nonetheless, live in a society where it is not okay to lure people to their deaths, regardless of "extenuating" circumstances. 

Don't see the need to get personal about real life, Ahrtee. But ok. On a personal note, I have actually testified on behalf of someone with mitigating circumstances. Doesn't mean that person shouldn't still be held accountable, just a lesser extent. Accepting responsibility and doing the right thing is always looked upon favorably.

Back to Alex. I saw haughtiness, not genuine remorse. "They made me do it," is not accepting responsibility.

[Katy M]

53 minutes ago, Terese said:

She knew this was wrong. At 8 or 10 or 16, she knew. She kept doing it. Being raised to help kill people is not a pass. Take it out of the context of the supernatural and apply it to any repeat felon, be it theft or murder, it is not okay. I would hesitate to go as far as to say she should take her own life to stop it. But, I can say her life is no more valuable than the ones she took. That one guy she helped turn killed his family. 

do you not remember being a child?  You don't have the same options that adults have.  You aren't as big as them. You cant go out and get a job.  You don't know where you can go for help.  She got away when she could.  That one guy who killed his family also knew it was wrong.

And, yes, you're right. Her life is no more valuable than anyone else's.  But, how would killing her now save anyone's life?

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Terese said:

There are different sentences depending on mitigating circumstances, even probation. Guilt varies and doesn't automatically mean punished to the fullest extent. We do, nonetheless, live in a society where it is not okay to lure people to their deaths, regardless of "extenuating" circumstances. 

Don't see the need to get personal about real life, Ahrtee. But ok. On a personal note, I have actually testified on behalf of someone with mitigating circumstances. Doesn't mean that person shouldn't still be held accountable, just a lesser extent. Accepting responsibility and doing the right thing is always looked upon favorably.

Back to Alex. I saw haughtiness, not genuine remorse. "They made me do it," is not accepting responsibility.

Sorry...I didn't mean to get personal.  I was being (more or less) facetious.

But we're not talking about RL here, but the SPN world where vampires who've sworn off blood have been forgiven, where "heroes" kill innocent people in order to take out the bad guys, both accidentally and deliberately (as in, the demon-killing knife), and where even vampires can choose *not* to kill (or choose not to kill their own families.)  So there is no black and white answer (or guilt) here, even without the "extenuating" circumstances of a child being brainwashed into believing she was doing the right thing for her family, if not for the rest of the world.  The fact that she *did* recognize that it was wrong and stopped shows strength of character.  That it took from 8 years old to 16 to actually stop doesn't detract from that.

And:

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

do you not remember being a child?  You don't have the same options that adults have.  You aren't as big as them. You cant go out and get a job.  You don't know where you can go for help.  She got away when she could.  That one guy who killed his family also knew it was wrong.

And, yes, you're right. Her life is no more valuable than anyone else's.  But, how would killing her now save anyone's life?

This, 1000%.

As for you seeing "haughtiness, not genuine remorse,"  well, that's a personal opinion, which is fine.   It doesn't actually have any bearing on innocence or guilt (or punishment).  YMMV.

 

[Terese]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

do you not remember being a child?  You don't have the same options that adults have.  You aren't as big as them. You cant go out and get a job.  You don't know where you can go for help.  She got away when she could.  That one guy who killed his family also knew it was wrong.

And, yes, you're right. Her life is no more valuable than anyone else's.  But, how would killing her now save anyone's life?

The guy was a vampire when he killed his family. Not the same thing.

I never said she should be killed. I said she knew right from wrong and should have stopped and they may entail personal consequences. 

Again, had she been portrayed as weak or submissive, or with PTSD, and had not been throwing jabs back at Claire, or not demanding this and that,  or not adjusting well in school, or not having a cold-hearted look on her face when delivering her victim...then I could say her life, mind, heart and soul were subverted and hold her completely innocent. They showed us quite the opposite.

[Terese]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...I didn't mean to get personal.  I was being (more or less) facetious.

But we're not talking about RL here, but the SPN world where vampires who've sworn off blood have been forgiven, where "heroes" kill innocent people in order to take out the bad guys, both accidentally and deliberately (as in, the demon-killing knife), and where even vampires can choose *not* to kill (or choose not to kill their own families.)  So there is no black and white answer (or guilt) here, even without the "extenuating" circumstances of a child being brainwashed into believing she was doing the right thing for her family, if not for the rest of the world.  The fact that she *did* recognize that it was wrong and stopped shows strength of character.  That it took from 8 years old to 16 to actually stop doesn't detract from that.

And:

This, 1000%.

As for you seeing "haughtiness, not genuine remorse,"  well, that's a personal opinion, which is fine.   It doesn't actually have any bearing on innocence or guilt (or punishment).  YMMV.

 

Remorse does have bearing on how guilt is punished. It is a mitigating factor and reduces the sentence. 

Well, we disagree. Has that ever happened before, especially in a show that has run for 15 years? 

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