Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, questionfear said:

I thought it was a mitzvah, but wasn't positive, so didn't want to be definitive. Thanks for confirming!

It's a mitzvah any day,

Signed,

One Irreverent, Naughty, Latent Episcopalian

[Sew Sumi]

Taken from the Dullard's thread: 

Which brings me to this question , what is the fundie perception of Arab Christians , especially Palestinian Christians ?

I don't remember any interactions with the Duggars and actual Christians when they visited Israel. I just remember Boob injecting himself between his daughters and a guy trying to talk to them when they were actually IN the Dead Sea. They also seemed to self-baptize themselves in the nasty waters of the Jordan River.

When the Wallers went to Israel, they treated the local Christians like royalty. Like they were one step closer to Jesus or something, since they were actually from the region. 

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

Taken from the Dullard's thread: 

 

 

I don't remember any interactions with the Duggars and actual Christians when they visited Israel. I just remember Boob injecting himself between his daughters and a guy trying to talk to them when they were actually IN the Dead Sea. They also seemed to self-baptize themselves in the nasty waters of the Jordan River.

When the Wallers went to Israel, they treated the local Christians like royalty. Like they were one step closer to Jesus or something, since they were actually from the region. 

I imagine Christians in Israel are essential to Jesus's imminent return, so the Duggars may have missed their chance to get with the right people. 

[questionfear]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I think Grace has long been a very popular name for Protestant churches of many kinds, actually. It's such a key concept for Protestants and is one of the concepts that Protestants feel they embrace way more strongly than Catholics. So I think that's why it's been so much used. And generally the more fundie you are, the more you emphasize grace, I think.

There are some Protestant groups that are celebrating the Jewish holy days these days. Some of those churches are loosely affiliated, under the title "Messianic Jews," for example. There are others, too.

Pulling this from the Vuolo thread.

I hate the term "Messianic Jew". No, you're not a Jew. If you believe Christ was the Messiah, you're christian. Jews very clearly believe the Messiah has not come, and that Jesus was simply a very charismatic religious leader. We don't believe in the New Testament and we don't raise Jesus to the level of religious figure. If you do those things, you're Christian.

Sorry, this is clearly a sore spot with me, because my experience with so-called "messianic jews" is that they are either cult-like in trying to recruit confused jews, or they're so whacked out on their social beliefs that they're nowhere near what Jews actually believe. The vast majority of jews and jewish culture is completely opposite what many fundies believe-Jews believe in true social justice and service, where the most important thing is not being observant but practicing "Tikkun Olam", or "repairing the world". I have not seen many, if any, fundies that embody this approach...the biggest exception I'm willing to give is to Chick Fil A, mainly because they provided food to people donating blood after the pulse shootings in orlando. THAT is Tikkun Olam, doing something good because people are in need, regardless of whether you agree with them...you see a need and you support and fix that, not proselytize and judge.

[Rabbittron]

My ex-husband was catholic and his late uncle was a priest. There was one thing his uncle agreed that Christians who worship Jesus are in reality are worshipping a Jew because he never converted to Christianity and the last supper was the Passover sader.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

Pulling this from the Vuolo thread.

I hate the term "Messianic Jew". No, you're not a Jew. If you believe Christ was the Messiah, you're christian. Jews very clearly believe the Messiah has not come, and that Jesus was simply a very charismatic religious leader. We don't believe in the New Testament and we don't raise Jesus to the level of religious figure. If you do those things, you're Christian.

Sorry, this is clearly a sore spot with me, because my experience with so-called "messianic jews" is that they are either cult-like in trying to recruit confused jews, or they're so whacked out on their social beliefs that they're nowhere near what Jews actually believe. The vast majority of jews and jewish culture is completely opposite what many fundies believe-Jews believe in true social justice and service, where the most important thing is not being observant but practicing "Tikkun Olam", or "repairing the world". I have not seen many, if any, fundies that embody this approach...the biggest exception I'm willing to give is to Chick Fil A, mainly because they provided food to people donating blood after the pulse shootings in orlando. THAT is Tikkun Olam, doing something good because people are in need, regardless of whether you agree with them...you see a need and you support and fix that, not proselytize and judge.

Yep. Totally agree. One caveat regarding the ones I'm personally acquainted with: They actually seem a lot more interested in converting Christians to their strange concept of legalistic religious mishmash (ChriJudaism? or whatever) than in trying to convert confused Jews. But they're definitely interested in converting. And they talk some major gobbledygook.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Churchhoney

[ariel]

I remember back in the day,  Messianic Jews called themselves "Jews for Jesus".  I guess they now think Messianic sounds more PC & palatable.

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 minutes ago, ariel said:

I remember back in the day,  Messianic Jews called themselves "Jews for Jesus".  I guess they now think Messianic sounds more PC & palatable.

Maybe not PC , but perhaps more of a statement by this group in pronouncing Jesus as Messiah. I'm  only guessing.

[lookeyloo]

2 hours ago, questionfear said:

Pulling this from the Vuolo thread.

I hate the term "Messianic Jew". No, you're not a Jew. If you believe Christ was the Messiah, you're christian. Jews very clearly believe the Messiah has not come, and that Jesus was simply a very charismatic religious leader. We don't believe in the New Testament and we don't raise Jesus to the level of religious figure. If you do those things, you're Christian.

Sorry, this is clearly a sore spot with me, because my experience with so-called "messianic jews" is that they are either cult-like in trying to recruit confused jews, or they're so whacked out on their social beliefs that they're nowhere near what Jews actually believe. The vast majority of jews and jewish culture is completely opposite what many fundies believe-Jews believe in true social justice and service, where the most important thing is not being observant but practicing "Tikkun Olam", or "repairing the world". I have not seen many, if any, fundies that embody this approach...the biggest exception I'm willing to give is to Chick Fil A, mainly because they provided food to people donating blood after the pulse shootings in orlando. THAT is Tikkun Olam, doing something good because people are in need, regardless of whether you agree with them...you see a need and you support and fix that, not proselytize and judge.

Thank you!  Sore spot with me too.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

@questionfear, thanks for teaching us about the concept of tikkun olam. What a beautiful concept. I want to learn more about it.

[Mollie]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I hate the term "Messianic Jew". No, you're not a Jew. If you believe Christ was the Messiah, you're christian. Jews very clearly believe the Messiah has not come, and that Jesus was simply a very charismatic religious leader. We don't believe in the New Testament and we don't raise Jesus to the level of religious figure. If you do those things, you're Christian.

Sorry, this is clearly a sore spot with me, because my experience with so-called "messianic jews" is that they are either cult-like in trying to recruit confused jews, or they're so whacked out on their social beliefs that they're nowhere near what Jews actually believe. 

Yep. Totally agree. One caveat regarding the ones I'm personally acquainted with: They actually seem a lot more interested in converting Christians to their strange concept of legalistic religious mishmash (ChriJudaism? or whatever) than in trying to convert confused Jews. But they're definitely interested in converting. And they talk some major gobbledygook.

Just FYI, the term 'Messianic' in Israel simply refers to someone who believes in the Biblical prophecies about God's future return to Jerusalem and His appointment of an anointed Prince (Moshiach/Messiah) who will be a descendant of King David and head the government. The anointed Prince will be married and have children, as described in the Bible (Ezekiel 40 – 48).  The term has nothing to do with Christianity.

In America, however, the term 'Messianic Jew' refers to someone who is a Christian.  Most of the members of 'Messianic Jewish' congregations are non-Jews.  The head of 'Jews for Jesus', for example, is not Jewish.  These groups advertise that they are converting Jews to Christianity and rake in millions of dollars every year for this purpose.  (Jews for Jesus gets more than $20 million a year!)  For the most part, their conversion efforts are unsuccessful and more non-Jews convert to Judaism every year than Jews convert to Christianity.  (Donald Trump's daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism eight years ago.)  No synagogue anywhere in the world advertises for converts and, in fact, no Jews act as missionaries to convert Christians to Judaism. 

What is not advertised by these American 'Messianic Jew' groups is that they ALL advocate and practice 'speaking in tongues' (Google it), which is viewed by most Jewish and Christian groups as false prophets giving false prophecies, pretending to speak for God Himself.  In fact, the God of the Hebrew Bible is so opposed to false prophecies that He requires the death penalty for all false prophets. (Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 13; etc.)   To my knowledge, the Duggars are not involved in that practice.  The adherents of 'speaking in tongues' are found on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network), Pentecostal churches, Full Gospel churches, etc. 

[Westiepeach]

I suppose no Duggar ever heard of Free Will?

I will show myself to the Prayer Closet.

[Andalusian]

51 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

I suppose no Duggar ever heard of Free Will?

I will show myself to the Prayer Closet.

I think this is as close as they get.

 

[scriggle]

3 minutes ago, Andalusian said:

I think this is as close as they get.

 

I will not make the obvious Josh joke.

[Love2dance]

28 minutes ago, scriggle said:

I will not make the obvious Josh joke.

You just did. ?

[riverblue22]

Here is a Jew that converted to Christianity and now runs a huge church organization.  I hear him on the radio all the time, and I've met a number of people who attend his churches.  

https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are/lon-solomon

[Rabbittron]

Josh's willy wasn't free he had to pay for it..

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

I suppose no Duggar ever heard of Free Will?

I will show myself to the Prayer Closet.

There's always wine and when Natalie68 comes there, she always brings tapas.

[questionfear]

17 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

@questionfear, thanks for teaching us about the concept of tikkun olam. What a beautiful concept. I want to learn more about it.

My pleasure. It's one of the things that makes me really proud to be jewish...because it's such a core tenet of the religion, above and beyond everything else, and it permeated so much of my childhood and upbringing. I went to hebrew school all the way through high school (even skipped my HS Prom for Hebrew School Graduation) and was involved in youth group too. One of the huge reasons we are raising my son jewish is because of my experiences; when I was in high school we helped staff a homeless shelter during the holidays, we helped package coats and toiletries for the homeless, and I had the opportunity to spend a summer volunteering at a camp for underprivileged kids.

I was shocked the first time a christian friend of mine said she went to a retreat that was all about trying to convert people to her religion, because in my mind a religious retreat was a place where you learned about how your religion expected you to become involved in your community (we used to have retreats where, in addition to all the usual singing and services, we had breakout sessions where we could pick an area of involvement and learn more about how we could make a difference, ie, LGBT rights, the environment, protecting and helping those on welfare, etc.)

Here's the wikipedia on Tikkun Olam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam I grew up Reform, but every denomination embraces it as one of the pillars of Judaism.

It's just sad that families like the Duggars try to hijack and borrow so much from Judaism but can't bring themselves to believe in the social action part!

[lookeyloo]

Beautifully said, @questionfear.  We are Jewish and my son and daughter in law are involved through their synagogue with helping the homeless and they always get the grandchildren involved and it is very direct work.  My part is giving $$ so people like them can do the actual hands on stuff.  

[DangerousMinds]

2 hours ago, questionfear said:

My pleasure. It's one of the things that makes me really proud to be jewish...because it's such a core tenet of the religion, above and beyond everything else, and it permeated so much of my childhood and upbringing. I went to hebrew school all the way through high school (even skipped my HS Prom for Hebrew School Graduation) and was involved in youth group too. One of the huge reasons we are raising my son jewish is because of my experiences; when I was in high school we helped staff a homeless shelter during the holidays, we helped package coats and toiletries for the homeless, and I had the opportunity to spend a summer volunteering at a camp for underprivileged kids.

I was shocked the first time a christian friend of mine said she went to a retreat that was all about trying to convert people to her religion, because in my mind a religious retreat was a place where you learned about how your religion expected you to become involved in your community (we used to have retreats where, in addition to all the usual singing and services, we had breakout sessions where we could pick an area of involvement and learn more about how we could make a difference, ie, LGBT rights, the environment, protecting and helping those on welfare, etc.)

Here's the wikipedia on Tikkun Olam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam I grew up Reform, but every denomination embraces it as one of the pillars of Judaism.

It's just sad that families like the Duggars try to hijack and borrow so much from Judaism but can't bring themselves to believe in the social action part!

My experience growing up in the Catholic church was very similar. Very heavy emphasis on helping others, be it the poor, homeless, refugees, etc. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by DangerousMinds

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

My pleasure. It's one of the things that makes me really proud to be jewish...because it's such a core tenet of the religion, above and beyond everything else, and it permeated so much of my childhood and upbringing. I went to hebrew school all the way through high school (even skipped my HS Prom for Hebrew School Graduation) and was involved in youth group too. One of the huge reasons we are raising my son jewish is because of my experiences; when I was in high school we helped staff a homeless shelter during the holidays, we helped package coats and toiletries for the homeless, and I had the opportunity to spend a summer volunteering at a camp for underprivileged kids.

I was shocked the first time a christian friend of mine said she went to a retreat that was all about trying to convert people to her religion, because in my mind a religious retreat was a place where you learned about how your religion expected you to become involved in your community (we used to have retreats where, in addition to all the usual singing and services, we had breakout sessions where we could pick an area of involvement and learn more about how we could make a difference, ie, LGBT rights, the environment, protecting and helping those on welfare, etc.)

Here's the wikipedia on Tikkun Olam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam I grew up Reform, but every denomination embraces it as one of the pillars of Judaism.

It's just sad that families like the Duggars try to hijack and borrow so much from Judaism but can't bring themselves to believe in the social action part!

Yep, agree with everything you said and thank you for sharing even more.

For all the Duggars speak of "servants hearts", for them it's all talk, since the only thing they clearly serve is themselves, except for Jana, and maybe JD.

[cmr2014]

8 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Yep, agree with everything you said and thank you for sharing even more.

For all the Duggars speak of "servants hearts", for them it's all talk, since the only thing they clearly serve is themselves, except for Jana, and maybe JD.

I think that you've forgotten that they spend thousands of dollars every year to fly to Central America and give fingernail polish and candy to children . . .

[Sew Sumi]

I think that is over. I'm pretty sure that no Duggar set foot in Danger America this past holiday season which pretty much confirms that the Dullards are done-zo. Now, whether they quit due to the pregnancy, which they would have discovered sometime in November, or if they were done the day they flew back to Normal America, no one except the Duggars know for sure. 

[awaken]

On 1/5/2017 at 9:22 PM, riverblue22 said:

Here is a Jew that converted to Christianity and now runs a huge church organization.  I hear him on the radio all the time, and I've met a number of people who attend his churches.  

https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are/lon-solomon

I know him well, used to attend MBC!

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I think that you've forgotten that they spend thousands of dollars every year to fly to Central America and give fingernail polish and candy to children . . .

Oh, right, how silly of me! Forgot all about DumDums, nail painting, and one crayon per child.

[Sew Sumi]

Don't forget the deflated soccer balls. For anyone who is the know about the inner workings of mission work, would Boob get a tax write-off for the duffel bags of crap they brought down to DA for years? 

I only ask because there's always an ulterior motive when Boob is involved. 

[Portia]

Oh yeah, mission trip expenses are tax-deductible, along with other ministry contributions. I would give regardless, but at the urging of my tax preparer, I save the receipts if I bake cookies for Bible school, and I track my mileage if I'm a volunteer sriver for a junior high Sunday school event. I've never taken a mission trip where I had to pay my own transport, but I think it's quite likely JB can and does legally write off the plane tickets, DumDums, and nail polish that are so vital to winning brown Catholics for Jesus.

[Sew Sumi]

Thanks @Portia. That's what I figured. There's ALWAYS something in it for Boob; he's not nearly as magnamous as he'd like people to believe.  Nail polish and DumDums may be cheap, but they used to bring deflated soccer balls (this was a few years back). Since none of his kidults are full-time students, he has lost 9 deductions he used to be able to claim once they turned 19. He screwed up by not going to Danger America this year to offset losing Joy's deduction.

[RazzleberryPie]

Ok I can explain the deflated soccer balls. I've been on a few mission trips to Mexico (we hosted health clinics and maintained a small soup kitchen, plus tons of people came to evening Bible school with their kids, as we discovered, for free English lesson practice). 

Anyway.....kids love soccer. You ship new, deflated balls for easier transport and inflate them when you get there. You can pack more deflated balls and a pump into a carton than you can filled balls. After getting poked and prodded at the health clinic, a soccer ball is a really good reward. 

This is one instance where Jim Bob may have been using some sense. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

16 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Thanks @Portia. That's what I figured. There's ALWAYS something in it for Boob; he's not nearly as magnamous as he'd like people to believe.  Nail polish and DumDums may be cheap, but they used to bring deflated soccer balls (this was a few years back). Since none of his kidults are full-time students, he has lost 9 deductions he used to be able to claim once they turned 19. He screwed up by not going to Danger America this year to offset losing Joy's deduction.

They went to Danger America upteen times this past year. Every time we turned around, they were descending on Jerick almost on a monthly basis...what's with the deflated soccer balls? I get they'd be more compact...they do reinflate them or hand them out squished?

Looks like we crossed posts, @RazzleberryPie.

I agree a soccer ball would probably be a treat for a kid who'd been prodded at the clinic.

[Sew Sumi]

35 minutes ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Ok I can explain the deflated soccer balls. I've been on a few mission trips to Mexico (we hosted health clinics and maintained a small soup kitchen, plus tons of people came to evening Bible school with their kids, as we discovered, for free English lesson practice). 

Anyway.....kids love soccer. You ship new, deflated balls for easier transport and inflate them when you get there. You can pack more deflated balls and a pump into a carton than you can filled balls. After getting poked and prodded at the health clinic, a soccer ball is a really good reward. 

This is one instance where Jim Bob may have been using some sense. 

I understand about the soccer culture in Latin America and why the balls had to be deflated. I was remarking on the cost of the balls vs. candy an cheap nail polish. :)

[BradandJanet]

On 1/5/2017 at 9:22 PM, riverblue22 said:

Here is a Jew that converted to Christianity and now runs a huge church organization.  I hear him on the radio all the time, and I've met a number of people who attend his churches.  

https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are/lon-solomon

Here's another one--Jonathan Cahn: Worries about Americans' personal behaviors, sets precise dates for angry Jesus to arrive and drain the social swamps, preaches to Christian and Jews on radio and Youtube,  runs a big church, writes lots of books of his prophesies (much into earthquakes and eclipses), and shills for donations on the Internet. He seems to be the total package of doom and despair. 

[Nysha]

Where do they get "Angry Jesus" from? In the Bible, Jesus only got angry at hypocrites, money lenders, dishonest clergy, and that one fig tree; He was pretty gentle and forgiving of sinners. Hell, He even treated Judas with respect and courtesy and that guy got Him killed.

[Micks Picks]

Seems to me they aren't Christians, followers of Jesus.  Seems they are really followers of the rest of the bible, excluding Christ.  Odd, isn't it.

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, Nysha said:

Where do they get "Angry Jesus" from? In the Bible, Jesus only got angry at hypocrites, money lenders, dishonest clergy, and that one fig tree; He was pretty gentle and forgiving of sinners. Hell, He even treated Judas with respect and courtesy and that guy got Him killed.

My question too. I got sent to CCD (Catholic) through high school, as well as going to church on Sundays, and I don't remember angry, vengeful Jesus at ALL.

5 hours ago, Micks Picks said:

Seems to me they aren't Christians, followers of Jesus.  Seems they are really followers of the rest of the bible, excluding Christ.  Odd, isn't it.

then they are Jewish? Ha!

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

My question too. I got sent to CCD (Catholic) through high school, as well as going to church on Sundays, and I don't remember angry, vengeful Jesus at ALL.

then they are Jewish? Ha!

Nah, Judaism requires too much lack of focus on Jizm Boob.

[questionfear]

7 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Nah, Judaism requires too much lack of focus on Jizm Boob.

Also all that hebrew would require them to get some form of education. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

26 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Also all that hebrew would require them to get some form of education. 

Indeed. They struggle plenty with English as it is, let alone a language with an a different alphabet that is read in the opposite direction!

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Nah, Judaism requires too much lack of focus on Jizm Boob.

Then how do we explain the Star of David period? I'm pretty sure all of the older girls (not Joy quite yet) were photographed wearing it back around the time they made their Ugly American pilgrimage to the Holy Land. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Arwen Evenstar]

It is not as uncommon a one might think for Christians to wear the Star of David, or wear prayer shawls to church, or have menorahs in their home. I have a friend who was raised Catholic yet visits evangelical churches from time to time. I've seen all of the above from other Christians as well.

[Sew Sumi]

For the Duggars, however, the Star of David seemed to be a definite phase. You don't see them with any Jewish paraphanelia these days. I wonder what motivated it, aside from the obvious trip to Israel? Or was the trip the main impetus for their actions at the time? I know they claim not to eat pork; how many other Jewish tenets do they adhere to, and most importantly, WHY? 

Curious minds.... :D

[RazzleberryPie]

Eh, I think the Start of David necklace phase was just the result of vacation souvenirs. Lots of people go somewhere, buy a necklace, t shirt, bumper sticker, etc., and then drop it after a few months.

[charmed1]

On January 6, 2017 at 11:24 PM, awaken said:

I know him well, used to attend MBC!

I used to work with a guy who attended that church. He was bat shit crazy. I never realized it until he tried to convince me that President Obama only allowed black people to attend his inaugural balls. 

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I know they claim not to eat pork; how many other Jewish tenets do they adhere to, and most importantly, WHY? 

They adhere to the ones that don't require any real sacrifice on their part and will still get them the praise they crave from their peer group and leg humpers. Which is why they do it. They don't even follow the 10 commandments if they interfere with anything the Duggars want to do.

[BradandJanet]

18 hours ago, Nysha said:

Where do they get "Angry Jesus" from? In the Bible, Jesus only got angry at hypocrites, money lenders, dishonest clergy, and that one fig tree; He was pretty gentle and forgiving of sinners. Hell, He even treated Judas with respect and courtesy and that guy got Him killed.

 These messianic Jewish groups including get their primary support from evangelical and fundamentalists Christians. They look very cultish in my opinion and are all about Revelations and a reign of terror on humans. However, the angry Jesus term is mine. In my Baptist upbringing, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same entity. If one is angry; they all are.

[Arwen Evenstar]

God bless the Jewish people. They have come up with the most wonderful Yiddish word long ago that describes the Duggars in general and Boob in particular.  Schnorrer!

Another wonderful book that is a delightfully funny treat is The Joy of Yiddish by Leo Rosten.  A dear friend who also happens to be Jewish gave it me nearly 30 years ago and I've considered it a favorite book.  

If you read this ethics article, it shows us how Jim Bob is the ultimate schnorrer.

https://tcjewfolk.com/jewish-ethics-schnorrer-nb/

[HeyNow]

11 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

God bless the Jewish people. They have come up with the most wonderful Yiddish word long ago that describes the Duggars in general and Boob in particular.  Schnorrer!

Another wonderful book that is a delightfully funny treat is The Joy of Yiddish by Leo Rosten.  A dear friend who also happens to be Jewish gave it me nearly 30 years ago and I've considered it a favorite book.  

If you read this ethics article, it shows us how Jim Bob is the ultimate schnorrer.

https://tcjewfolk.com/jewish-ethics-schnorrer-nb/

Perfect!

[EAG46]

Another fine Yiddish word to describe Jim Bob: Schmuck.  

[Sew Sumi]

LOL, I was going to mention that one. It's also the name of the principal of my school in K-1 grades. He moved on, but the pictures remain. Needless to say, I learned that word very early in life. :D