Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Arwen Evenstar]

I wonder how Bill Gothard will like being a prison bitch?

The shoe is now going to be on the other foot...we all know how much he likes feet..but he'll have to settle for stinky men's feet now..

[Absolom]

This is currently a civil not a criminal matter.  There is no prison sentence in the offing. 

[Marigold]

How high up was Jim Bob in the IBLP group?

I haven't heard that he was in any positions (except that dry humping at the golf course).

[Arwen Evenstar]

This is currently a civil not a criminal matter.  There is no prison sentence in the offing.

Absolom, I stand corrected. It's currently a civil matter as you said, but some of his further behavior that has come out has been criminal in nature. Once these girls sue for back pay and the suit settled, there's going to be criminal charges as well no doubt. Just hope the old reptile doesn't croak before the civil and criminal courts have wiped the floor with him.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm pretty sure that the statutes have run in all but a handful of the plaintiff's complaints. 

[Aja]

I'm having a rather inactive afternoon and just went down the Quiverfull rabbit hole on Raw Story. Here's a gem from another genius:

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/quiverfull-author-delivers-melodramatic-defense-of-duggars-against-pagans-and-gullible-christians/

“‘Abuse’ is the new ‘racism,’” wrote Boyer as part of a series of Facebook posts. “As soon as you’re accused of it, you’re considered guilty. Just what would you like the Duggars to have done? Turn all their kids over to a godless psychologist? Maybe one supplied by the local public school system where ‘abuse’ is so unheard of? Should they have skinned Josh alive, rolled him in salt and hung him on a meathook?”

 

*gives up*

[Tabbygirl521]

I'm having a rather inactive afternoon and just went down the Quiverfull rabbit hole on Raw Story. Here's a gem from another genius:

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/quiverfull-author-delivers-melodramatic-defense-of-duggars-against-pagans-and-gullible-christians/

“‘Abuse’ is the new ‘racism,’” wrote Boyer as part of a series of Facebook posts. “As soon as you’re accused of it, you’re considered guilty. Just what would you like the Duggars to have done? Turn all their kids over to a godless psychologist? Maybe one supplied by the local public school system where ‘abuse’ is so unheard of? Should they have skinned Josh alive, rolled him in salt and hung him on a meathook?”

*gives up*

Jeesh. More black-and-white thinking. OF COURSE there were no possible responses to the abuse besides cover it up, and massive shame and retribution. Even covering it up involved implying that women are somehow at fault for l such things. I am sputtering mentally. This makes me nuts.

[GeeGolly]

BECCA's post from the J & D thread:

The way people here define fundy isn't quite right, in my opinion. You don't have to be Quiverfull/Gothard to be fundy, and Derick and his mom are definitely fundy. They attended a southern Baptist church, which while not QUITE as extreme as IFB, still believes in the submission of wives, the literal truth of the bible including Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and a 6,000 year old earth, and takes a very hard line on homosexuality. So they're still very conservative Christians by the world's standards, even though they thankfully skipped the Gothard nonsense.

 

 

That’s so interesting. In my mind Fundamentalists appear to go a few steps beyond conservative Christians. So cousin Amy has said she can't live up to the Duggars' religious standards. Is she Fundy?

Edited March 27, 2016 by GeeGolly

[Joe Jitsu913]

BECCA's post from the J & D thread:

The way people here define fundy isn't quite right, in my opinion. You don't have to be Quiverfull/Gothard to be fundy, and Derick and his mom are definitely fundy. They attended a southern Baptist church, which while not QUITE as extreme as IFB, still believes in the submission of wives, the literal truth of the bible including Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and a 6,000 year old earth, and takes a very hard line on homosexuality. So they're still very conservative Christians by the world's standards, even though they thankfully skipped the Gothard nonsense.

That’s so interesting. In my mind Fundamentalists appear to go a few steps beyond conservative Christians. So cousin Amy has said she can't live up to the Duggars' religious standards. Is she Fundy?

Fundamentalists exist in every religion, not just Southern Baptist or the the Quiverfull sect. Judaism, Catholicism, Islam all have fundies. It's an adjective rather than a religion, IMO.

[Sew Sumi]

It's hard to say where Famy falls on the religious continuum, because I think she pays a lot of lip service to it to keep a large segment of the leghumpers happy. She's been seen at pro-life fundraisers with her cousins. However, she parties, wears bikinis, and isn't a regular church attendee. And the hardcore leghumpers tend to slam her for it.

I personally think she's like Smuggar in that she knows how to pay lip service, but deep down she's not as on board as she appears.

[becca3891]

That’s so interesting. In my mind Fundamentalists appear to go a few steps beyond conservative Christians. So cousin Amy has said she can't live up to the Duggars' religious standards. Is she Fundy?

Fundamentalists exist in every religion, not just Southern Baptist or the the Quiverfull sect. Judaism, Catholicism, Islam all have fundies. It's an adjective rather than a religion, IMO.

Oh, yes. I have said the same thing here. Christianity as a religion is very broad, but my definition of fundy comes from the Wikipedia definition of fundamentalist Christianity, which is a term that does mean different things to different people. So I'm not saying anyone here is wrong! Here we are:

    The inerrancy of the Bible

    The literal nature of the biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis

    The virgin birth of Christ

    The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ

    The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

 

If you really believe in the inerrancy of the bible, then other things fall into place, such as wifely submission and the evils of homosexuality. Most fundy churches such as Reformed Presbyterian and Southern Baptist (Amy and Derick's family) actually include these doctrines in their official statements of faith. So, if Amy does believe all that, then despite her bikinis and alcohol (neither of which the bible forbids) I would still call her a fundy.

[queenanne]

Oh, yes. I have said the same thing here. Christianity as a religion is very broad, but my definition of fundy comes from the Wikipedia definition of fundamentalist Christianity, which is a term that does mean different things to different people. So I'm not saying anyone here is wrong! Here we are:

    The inerrancy of the Bible

    The literal nature of the biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis

    The virgin birth of Christ

    The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ

    The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

 

If you really believe in the inerrancy of the bible, then other things fall into place, such as wifely submission and the evils of homosexuality. Most fundy churches such as Reformed Presbyterian and Southern Baptist (Amy and Derick's family) actually include these doctrines in their official statements of faith. So, if Amy does believe all that, then despite her bikinis and alcohol (neither of which the bible forbids) I would still call her a fundy.

 

Also, I feel like some of this is grounding/underpinning even in mainstream Protestant religions, because if there is any place with "a church library" (disclaimer: I had one growing up, such as it was), the "church library" is generally stocked with what can be found at "Christian bookstores", some of which will be Calvinist just because you're looking at classics built in the time of Calvin/actual Reformers, or even just theologians who were steeped in said tradition (Oswald Chambers, Francis Schaeffer, and the like).  Some may be donations, or bought by someone who just said "yeah, we need some edifying stuff, let me buy what's on the shelves at the bookstore."

[riverblue22]

I was just watching House Hunters Interntional and this very "sweet" family of 11 were moving to Italy for no apparent reason except to get away from the rat race.  I was very suspicious and googled the Josh and Sarah Brown family and discovered that they were missionaries to Italy.  I guess there are a lot of Catholics in Italy that need to be converted to Evangelical Christianity!

[Aja]

I was just watching House Hunters Interntional and this very "sweet" family of 11 were moving to Italy for no apparent reason except to get away from the rat race.  I was very suspicious and googled the Josh and Sarah Brown family and discovered that they were missionaries to Italy.  I guess there are a lot of Catholics in Italy that need to be converted to Evangelical Christianity!

Lol, I lived in Italy for seven years. Jolly good luck with that.

[Missy Vixen]

Do they have communion? I've never really thought about this, but if they home church how would that even work? Does someone just bake some wafers and Boob hands them out along with the grape juice?

There was grape juice and communion "wafers" when I was in the church years. And you can't imagine the explanation as to why the grape juice was not wine.

[Lemur]

There was grape juice and communion "wafers" when I was in the church years. And you can't imagine the explanation as to why the grape juice was not wine.

 

Because there are 34 words for "wine" in Aramaic and not all of them mean fermented grape juice? (No, really, this was the explanation I heard in 11th grade Religion Class when we covered Catholic versus Protestant Theology.)  Also, you can buy non-consecrated Communion wafers at many religious goods stores.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lemur

[Missy Vixen]

Because there are 34 words for "wine" in Aramaic and not all of them mean fermented grape juice? (No, really, this was the explanation I heard in 11th grade Religion Class when we covered Catholic versus Protestant Theology.)  

We were told that they didn't actually drink wine in the Bible. It was more like juice. Yeah, that's it.

 

Juice.

[Mollie]

Because there are 34 words for "wine" in Aramaic and not all of them mean fermented grape juice? (No, really, this was the explanation I heard in 11th grade Religion Class when we covered Catholic versus Protestant Theology.)  Also, you can buy non-consecrated Communion wafers at many religious goods stores.

In Biblical Hebrew, the word for wine is yayin.  It definitely contains alcohol. That word is used over 200 times in the Bible.  Another word used for alcoholic beverages is shekar.  That means strong drink and appears 23 times in the Bible.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Mollie

[DangerousMinds]

Actually communion at weddings isn't that common the more evangelical/low church you get. Communion is almost an after thought with a lot of fundies, but with the Internet, and hipster fundies like bin discovering old traditions, you see more and more high church traditions coming back in vogue.

Prime example - 15 years ago, pre social media, it seemed to me like Lent and Advent were some of those things most fundies and fundie lights scoffed at as being meaningless and ceremonial dogma. Only heathens paid attention to that stuff. Now it seems like every Campus Crusade and homeschool hipster with wiki access has discovered older traditions, and has to profoundly and solemnly reinvent them and educate everyone about how holy they are for make a wreath or whatever.

isn't this an oxymoron?

[queenanne]

In Biblical Hebrew, the word for wine is yayin.  It definitely contains alcohol. That word is used over 200 times in the Bible.  Another word used for alcoholic beverages is shekar.  That means strong drink and appears 23 times in the Bible.

 

I've always thought this is so stupid as a protest/lie.  What about drunken incestuous Lot?  It's clearly agreed on some level that the fermentation process existed. It's even there in Christ's "old wine in new wineskins" story, I feel - as I have always been told grapes/grape juices are alkaline, thus I don't know what it'd be doing eating through animal skins as "juice".  Plus, alcohol is a damn preservative, just like the attempts at salting things were.

[MunichNark]

I really don't understand the rather insane emphasis on being married. This contradicts the Bible, which does not recommend marriage at all. The highest calling is being single and devoting your life to Christ. Being married comes in at a very poor second.

 

So how do they justify their insane insistance?

[GeeGolly]

I really don't understand the rather insane emphasis on being married. This contradicts the Bible, which does not recommend marriage at all. The highest calling is being single and devoting your life to Christ. Being married comes in at a very poor second.

 

So how do they justify their insane insistance?

Marriage is for pro-creation, to build an army of Christians here on earth and for the afterlife. I have a hard time wrapping my head around who they're battling or what their battle is, though.

[Vaysh]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around who they're battling or what their battle is, though.

Evil liberal pinko commies, atheists who worship Satan, Catholics who worship statues, uppity wimmenfolk, godless scientists, abortionistas, teh gays and uh.. I don't know, anyone not exactly like themselves?

[Churchhoney]

I really don't understand the rather insane emphasis on being married. This contradicts the Bible, which does not recommend marriage at all. The highest calling is being single and devoting your life to Christ. Being married comes in at a very poor second.

 

So how do they justify their insane insistance?

 

Shhhhh! Don't ask that. ..... I'm pretty sure they emphasize it because these groups are founded and run by power-hungry, sex-mad guys who couldn't even imagine a life lived alone in a monk's cell practicing celibacy. What they want -- crave, absolutely must have -- is a woman and a bunch of kids for each of them to own and push around, obsess over the sexuality of ... And, as others have mentioned, form into an "army" to protect them against all those strange people who threaten their deep insecurities.

 

As far as I can tell, they don't actually bother trying to justify any of the nutso ways in which they veer from other Christian practices (such as, you know, focusing on charitable practices rather than dictating hair and footwear styles). Why bother, I guess. All you need to say is "Cause Jeezus!"

Edited April 15, 2016 by Churchhoney

[MunichNark]

Well, perhaps I'm showing my Catholic upbringing, but marriage has never been THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF MY LIFE

 

After reading I fired God I got a whole new insight into their mindset, but it still boggles the mind. They blather on and on about the Bible and such like, yet they so clearly haven't a clue.

 

Yes, it's all about power and feeling important, but even so - you'd think that someone would cop on

[Churchhoney]

Well, perhaps I'm showing my Catholic upbringing, but marriage has never been THE MOST IMPORTANT THING OF MY LIFE

 

After reading I fired God I got a whole new insight into their mindset, but it still boggles the mind. They blather on and on about the Bible and such like, yet they so clearly haven't a clue.

 

Yes, it's all about power and feeling important, but even so - you'd think that someone would cop on

 

I think the fact that this does happen, or at least start to happen, is one big reason they have things like Alert, Journey to the Heart, frequent Mother-Daughter retreats and so on. Most of the adult men in these groups probably love the "principles" -- since they're all for their benefit -- so they're very unlikely to figure out that any of it's wrong. (and if they do, they probably just take their families and quietly go elsewhere and change their ways...) But it looks to me as if there's a whole mechanism of events and organizations and classes and so on that's been created to head off any copping on that may arise among the women and the younger generation.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Churchhoney

[becca3891]

We were told that they didn't actually drink wine in the Bible. It was more like juice. Yeah, that's it.

 

Juice.

I find it absolutely hilarious how fundies have to twist and stretch their beloved, inerrant bible to make this one work. There is an ENTIRE miracle performed by Jesus, the entire purpose of which was to turn water into wine, and in the account of the miracle, the host of the party says to Jesus, "Usually by the end of the party, the cheap wine is brought out because the guests are too drunk to care, but you have saved the best for last!" I've never heard any of them give a good explanation for that one. The story really tells us that Jesus could have used his powers for anything, but chose to use them to provide high quality wine for drunk partygoers who couldn't even fully appreciate it. To me, this is a great example of how the bible has some wonderful moral guidelines, and also a lot of random stories that frankly don't make sense.

I really don't understand the rather insane emphasis on being married. This contradicts the Bible, which does not recommend marriage at all. The highest calling is being single and devoting your life to Christ. Being married comes in at a very poor second.

 

So how do they justify their insane insistance?

Really, they worship marriage. They wouldn't have anything to talk about if not for endless courtship speculation! I am beyond sick of the producers constantly asking each of the adult kids when they'll enter a courtship, and Anna's question to Joy, and the followup remark that anyone over 18 could be engaged within six months of the present, made me sick. The girl is 18. She has NEVER indicated that she has any interest in marriage, and just maybe she doesn't want to think about it at all when she thinks about her brother, your husband, who molested little girls and lived a lie with you, his wife. Maybe she wants marriage, maybe she doesn't, but can't we talk about anything else?? Even in their belief system, she could find another question to ask. "So, any new ministry ideas now that you're an adult?" You're right; in the bible, Paul extols the virtues of singlehood but I have never heard any of them even mention it as a real possibility. Everything is "when so and so gets married," not IF.

[mbutterfly]

In Biblical Hebrew, the word for wine is yayin.  It definitely contains alcohol. That word is used over 200 times in the Bible.  Another word used for alcoholic beverages is shekar.  That means strong drink and appears 23 times in the Bible.

My teaching has been that shekar is a beer; and yayin is, of course, actually wine. 

[RazzleberryPie]

There's that passage of verse that says it's better to be single and devoted to the Lord, but better to marry than to burn with lust.

These people can't fathom that just because they can't control their lust, that many other people can control themselves. They presume you must be married or you're either a whore, a rapist, a pervert, something vile and not normal.

So marriage is stressed, because it supposedly removes any whore, rapist, pervert, vile, not normal tendencies. Bc saying vows and putting on a ring always works 100% as the formula to a perfect life. I. E. The 'every person MUST MARRY' demand makes no sense.

[Jynnan tonnix]

There's that passage of verse that says it's better to be single and devoted to the Lord, but better to marry than to burn with lust.

These people can't fathom that just because they can't control their lust, that many other people can control themselves. They presume you must be married or you're either a whore, a rapist, a pervert, something vile and not normal.

So marriage is stressed, because it supposedly removes any whore, rapist, pervert, vile, not normal tendencies. Bc saying vows and putting on a ring always works 100% as the formula to a perfect life. I. E. The 'every person MUST MARRY' demand makes no sense.

But what is their understanding of not being able to control their lust? There's a world of difference between the person who finds themselves, on occasion, glimpsing someone who causes a bit of a rush and the person who then goes on to fantasize, masturbate, or otherwise dwell on it. And either of these is far, far removed from the person who will then stalk and rape the object of their lust. But in their world, these all seem to be one and the same, not only in the grievance of the sin but in the amount of self-control which is given up. They simply don't recognize or admit that there is any space on the continuum between a momentary attraction and a literally uncontrollable, ravening lust.

[RazzleberryPie]

But what is their understanding of not being able to control their lust? There's a world of difference between the person who finds themselves, on occasion, glimpsing someone who causes a bit of a rush and the person who then goes on to fantasize, masturbate, or otherwise dwell on it. And either of these is far, far removed from the person who will then stalk and rape the object of their lust. But in their world, these all seem to be one and the same, not only in the grievance of the sin but in the amount of self-control which is given up. They simply don't recognize or admit that there is any space on the continuum between a momentary attraction and a literally uncontrollable, ravening lust.

Pretty much. They're nuts.

[Tabbygirl521]

But what is their understanding of not being able to control their lust? There's a world of difference between the person who finds themselves, on occasion, glimpsing someone who causes a bit of a rush and the person who then goes on to fantasize, masturbate, or otherwise dwell on it. And either of these is far, far removed from the person who will then stalk and rape the object of their lust. But in their world, these all seem to be one and the same, not only in the grievance of the sin but in the amount of self-control which is given up. They simply don't recognize or admit that there is any space on the continuum between a momentary attraction and a literally uncontrollable, ravening lust.

I think this is true of their beliefs; all "sins" are equal. There seems to be no capacity for anything other than black-and-white thinking, ever. IMO this all ties back to control, control, control. Impose these very rigid rules about everything and frighten the followers into never questioning anything - voila! You have a cult like this one.

Slightly related: cult leaders are often able to project charm and charisma, to the point that one might get a glimmer of why someone might get sucked into a weird belief system. But Gothard? Creepy! How did he get his hooks in?

[Churchhoney]

But what is their understanding of not being able to control their lust? There's a world of difference between the person who finds themselves, on occasion, glimpsing someone who causes a bit of a rush and the person who then goes on to fantasize, masturbate, or otherwise dwell on it. And either of these is far, far removed from the person who will then stalk and rape the object of their lust. But in their world, these all seem to be one and the same, not only in the grievance of the sin but in the amount of self-control which is given up. They simply don't recognize or admit that there is any space on the continuum between a momentary attraction and a literally uncontrollable, ravening lust.

 

They are idjits.

 But Gothard? Creepy! How did he get his hooks in?

 

The same way any successful marketer does, I think. Showing a certain group of people that he understands and sympathizes with their greatest needs and desires and then laying out clearly and in detail how joining his program will meet those needs and desires. He's got a marketing pitch down pat for insecure but arrogant men who want a guarantee that they can be little petty tyrants with large entourages in both this world and the next, I'd say.

[becca3891]

I think this is true of their beliefs; all "sins" are equal. There seems to be no capacity for anything other than black-and-white thinking, ever. IMO this all ties back to control, control, control. Impose these very rigid rules about everything and frighten the followers into never questioning anything - voila! You have a cult like this one.

Slightly related: cult leaders are often able to project charm and charisma, to the point that one might get a glimmer of why someone might get sucked into a weird belief system. But Gothard? Creepy! How did he get his hooks in?

The "all sins are equal" is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous beliefs they have. Think about it: In their endless obsessing about purity, they teach that having a lustful thought is just as bad as committing the act. So, Josh and others probably figure, I'm already having lustful thoughts, so it's no worse to actually do whatever I want. Yikes.

[GeeGolly]

The "all sins are equal" is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous beliefs they have. Think about it: In their endless obsessing about purity, they teach that having a lustful thought is just as bad as committing the act. So, Josh and others probably figure, I'm already having lustful thoughts, so it's no worse to actually do whatever I want. Yikes.

I so agree. Even the law sees sins, or crimes at different levels of egregiousness. Would the Duggars agree that they should be sent to prison for life for a speeding ticket? Or would they agree that a murderer should just have to pay a fine for the crime? 

 

You are right, a very dangerous belief indeed.

[charmed1]

A question for those of you who escaped a similar upbringing to the Duggars... What do you think it will take for at least one of the kids to break away from this cult? I'll admit, the only reason I watch this show is because I really want to see the moment when one of the kids has a revelation and breaks free. Their whole existence reminds me of the movie, The Village.

[queenanne]

A question for those of you who escaped a similar upbringing to the Duggars... What do you think it will take for at least one of the kids to break away from this cult? I'll admit, the only reason I watch this show is because I really want to see the moment when one of the kids has a revelation and breaks free. Their whole existence reminds me of the movie, The Village.

 

Willpower.  Willpower and feeling daily like you're being bent under the Colonial stocks for punishment.  Having one of their cherished dreams of independence (as we've seen, they are allowed to lip-service about 'em) yanked away from them.

[Allison Lynn]

I'm not sure this is the right thread, so apologies if I'm in the wrong place.  But I've been thinking about Counting On, and why it just doesn't work for me.  A couple of episodes ago, some of the sisters and Anna went away for the weekend.  There weren't scenes of them praying before meals, or reading the Bible before bed, or going to church.  It was just like a secular, boring version of one of the Housewives.  Generally speaking, aside from phrases about God's will (and, of course, the Christian hip-hop), the show seems to be going out of its way to be secular.  There wasn't even a prayer for safe travels in the most recent episode.

Which is why the strange "Josh is going to be healed and made good through the Lord" talk seems particularly jarring.  I mean, I expect that most people would have a difficult time forgiving someone who has acted as Josh has, but at least, if that surprising forgiveness is framed in a very overtly Christian framework that's consistent and present throughout the show, it makes some sense.  But this is as though TLC is trying to have it both ways: not putting much religion in so the non-fundy viewers aren't put off, but then going all out (I suspect, eventually) with a display of Christian, Gothard-style forgiveness.  

I can't figure out whether TLC just hasn't realized that some viewers will see this as cognitive dissonance (or is this just me?), or whether TLC knows, and is setting up the Duggars for some bad press and low ratings.  But I've been mulling this over lately, and the question interests me.

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, Allison Lynn said:

I'm not sure this is the right thread, so apologies if I'm in the wrong place.  But I've been thinking about Counting On, and why it just doesn't work for me.  A couple of episodes ago, some of the sisters and Anna went away for the weekend.  There weren't scenes of them praying before meals, or reading the Bible before bed, or going to church.  It was just like a secular, boring version of one of the Housewives.  Generally speaking, aside from phrases about God's will (and, of course, the Christian hip-hop), the show seems to be going out of its way to be secular.  There wasn't even a prayer for safe travels in the most recent episode.

Which is why the strange "Josh is going to be healed and made good through the Lord" talk seems particularly jarring.  I mean, I expect that most people would have a difficult time forgiving someone who has acted as Josh has, but at least, if that surprising forgiveness is framed in a very overtly Christian framework that's consistent and present throughout the show, it makes some sense.  But this is as though TLC is trying to have it both ways: not putting much religion in so the non-fundy viewers aren't put off, but then going all out (I suspect, eventually) with a display of Christian, Gothard-style forgiveness.  

I can't figure out whether TLC just hasn't realized that some viewers will see this as cognitive dissonance (or is this just me?), or whether TLC knows, and is setting up the Duggars for some bad press and low ratings.  But I've been mulling this over lately, and the question interests me.

I think that TLC has always tried to find a 'balance' of showing the Duggar religion. I also believe that TLC does show the more bizarre stuff the Duggars believe, yet in subtle ways. They want the show to appeal to the broadest audience, because, you know, money. 

But, I agree they have made a convoluted formula of filming the Duggars, even more convoluted.

[Churchhoney]

On 4/25/2016 at 5:59 PM, charmed1 said:

A question for those of you who escaped a similar upbringing to the Duggars... What do you think it will take for at least one of the kids to break away from this cult? I'll admit, the only reason I watch this show is because I really want to see the moment when one of the kids has a revelation and breaks free. Their whole existence reminds me of the movie, The Village.

My guess is that whichever one does it has already cherished a vague escape plan and nursed his/her hatred of the whole arrangement for years already. Generally speaking, they're like the frog in the pot of water being brought to a boil. They're used to the outrages -- and believe they're what Jesus wants -- so they aren't likely to notice much even as the outrages increase to what might seem to be killing level. And I continue to believe that at least the vast majority of them just aren't very bright, in addition to being effectively brainwashed.

Having the damned show end and eventually realizing that real poverty was about to hit them and likely linger for a lifetime could well spur somebody to walk, I believe. But since they have so  many tv fans who keep Jim Bob's gulag going, I guess that's not going to happen for a while.

[Minivanessa]

On 4/25/2016 at 3:59 PM, charmed1 said:

, the only reason I watch this show is because I really want to see the moment when one of the kids has a revelation and breaks free. 

Won't be seen on the show. Ever. Even if it happens in real life while the series (or some spinoff) is in production.

As to whether and when any kid will break free, I'm with Churchie. Could happen, but not soon. The kids have all been sequestered and indoctrinated, all their lives, by JB and Michelle, in that particular religion and world view. IMO the show has made the Duggars famous enough in the mainstream culture, that most people assume they are a lot more "normal" than they really are. IMO they are freakishly isolated and not at all "mainstream" despite their wealth and fame. 

If you can handle some disturbing facts and want to know more about the Duggars' world view? I recommend the book I Fired God, which exposes the somewhat hidden cult/world of the fundamentalist Independent Baptist churches, The IFB world encompasses the likes of Bill Gothard, the late Vision Forum, the Pearls, the Bates Family, and many of the other nutjobs the Duggars have associated with or followed over the years. I've never lived that life but I know a few folks who are or have been involved with the IFB world. Scary stuff.

[kaleidoscope]

I'm not sure which thread is appropriate for this article.  I DO KNOW it makes me literally ill.    "Duggar cult founder plans Kansas ‘retreat’ to set up arranged marriages for teen girls"   https://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/duggar-cult-founder-plans-kansas-retreat-to-set-up-arranged-marriages-for-teen-girls/

[Minivanessa]

7 minutes ago, kaleidoscope said:

I'm not sure which thread is appropriate for this article.  I DO KNOW it makes me literally ill.    "Duggar cult founder plans Kansas ‘retreat’ to set up arranged marriages for teen girls"   https://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/duggar-cult-founder-plans-kansas-retreat-to-set-up-arranged-marriages-for-teen-girls/

Well, they won't be having it at the announced venue. That is owned by the Salvation Army, which has promptly denied permission for them to hold the event: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/salvation-army-bans-duggar-cults-retreat-that-promoted-arranged-marriages-for-teen-girls/

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, kaleidoscope said:

I'm not sure which thread is appropriate for this article.  I DO KNOW it makes me literally ill.    "Duggar cult founder plans Kansas ‘retreat’ to set up arranged marriages for teen girls"   https://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/duggar-cult-founder-plans-kansas-retreat-to-set-up-arranged-marriages-for-teen-girls/

I just saw this and went to post it. My. God. Tell me it's a bad joke. Reminds me of that Pro Rape group that was boning to have a public meeting months ago, but then promptly canceled.

 

How long until the Duggars show up?

[sometimesy]

So that really clarifies Bin's weird rant regarding marriage recently (something about not requiring compatibility), also papa Seewald and his blog post regarding young people getting married (when he was trying to nudge things along). 

Just noticed this gem.

"The ‘youth’ ready for marriage has breasts. A woman who is to be married is one who has breasts; breasts which signal her readiness for marriage, and breasts who promise enjoyment for her husband. (We believe that ‘breasts’ here stand as a symbol for all forms of full secondary sexual characteristics.)"

Consent not mandatory.. omg there are more rules for purebred dog breeders. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by sometimesy

[DangerousMinds]

How is the guy who planned that "retreat" related to Gothard?

[Sew Sumi]

At least Jessa was 20 (just a couple months short of 21) when she got rope-tied to Ben in the most awkward courtship proposal ever. So, she would be seen as over the hill by these creeps by marrying at about three days short of 22. Jessica Seewald, OTOH, seems to have moved out around her 18th birthday and may or may not be actually living with her "bae" (her words, not mine). Alyssa Bates was allowed to start talking to John Webster at 17 and married at 19. 

The one things the Duggars seem to have actually done right, and certainly not by their religious design, was keep their girls single into their 20's, which for these people seems to be a real feat. That said, they'll probably marry off 18 year old Joy ASAP to get another season of the snoozefest. As Anna reminded us, it only takes 6 months! And look how well it turned out for her! Arrrrgh! 

As for the conference, it was nixed by the Salvation Army, who own the property. 

[Micks Picks]

Good for the Salvation Army.  I like them.

[Tabbygirl521]

This grosses me out for so many reasons. Aren't these the same dads who are obsessed with their daughters' "purity"? But then they are cool with pairing off their daughters without consent? Fifty bucks says the prospective grooms are around the ages of these so-called fathers. In other words, they are more or less surrogates. Sick!!!!!!

[sometimesy]

14 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

How is the guy who planned that "retreat" related to Gothard?

Quiverfull patriarch, Vaughn Ohlman,

I’m not sure if this is how they are linking them to Duggars, or if there is a real connection somewhere.

“The Salvation Army has denied a request by the Let Them Marry organization to conduct its event at Camp Hiawatha.” Tweet

Googled 'Let Them Marry'------oh boy…..

http://letthemmarry.org/

Disclaimer at top of page These are some sick people.

Note: Contrary to vicious internet rumors we do not support or in any way condone child sexual activity of any sort, child marriage, or any other illegal activity. Nor do we support or condone forced marriages. We believe that parents should NOT seek a spouse for a child where that child has not actively sought for the parents to do so.

Seems kinda strange when they go on to say (in frequently asked questions) "Courtship denies the authority of the father over the marriage of their virgin children. While they often give a veto to the parents of the woman, they specifically deny the authority of the father of the groom or the bride to choose a spouse for their children." They don't like courtship or waiting.

This seems more Bin and Papa Seewald than Duggar. No wonder he feels stuck. He thought he had a lucky romance with a hot (except that massive jaw) girl, now he is really living the dream, suffering in his marriage. Yikes! 

Edited May 6, 2016 by sometimesy