Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Sew Sumi]

I believe Michelle said that her family wasn't really religious. It's sad that she got "scared" into religion, much like Ben and Jessa are trying to do now. 

 

As for Gothard, the Duggars are keynote speakers at 3 of the 4 ATI "Family" conferences this spring and summer. Their images are all over the IBLP website (this is of Friday night when I was poking around the conference pages). They may be *saying* one thing to keep the critics off their backs, but they're *doing* something totally opposite. When they didn't back out of their speaking engagements last year after the Gothard scandal broke around Valentine's Day, I knew it was SSDD for them. The girls were quizzed about Gothard during the March book tour. This is when Boob stepped in to give the party line about "not [following] a man."  

 

Sorry, but actions speak louder than the crap that spews forth from Duggar mouths on a daily basis. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[flyingdi]

What does happen if one other Quiverfull couples is Infertile? I am very curious about this. Does anyone know?

[Joe Jitsu913]

My impression of Michelle's parents is that they were very lenient "normal" parents. They let their kids be kids and that Michelle was babied. She was allowed to go on road trips, be a cheerleader, have boyfriends etc. Very mainstream. For some reason she looks back on this time as being "sinful", even though these are very important milestones in a teenager's life.

[floridamom]

Does anyone know if Michelle's family attended church at all? I seem to think that maybe they did, but were middle of the road types, not fanatics, nor were they atheist types or attendance was irregular or skimpy. I'm sure they were nice folks who had good hearts and tried their best with their kids..it's not like any of Michelle's siblings turned out to be ax murderers or anything... to denounce them as she and Jim Bob do, is a sin in itself...I think they are disrespectful to her family and any efforts they made in their lives. Jim Bob treats his own parents, in my opinion, like dirt also.

I also think you would have to be pretty arrogant to "head up your own church" with absolutely NO seminary training at all, like Jim Bob does. What makes him think his church is legitimate? He does what he wants in his own made up service..how is that biblical? In reality, they attend NO church nor do they tithe to any real church, nor do they "fellowship" with the masses.... it is a select, invitation only event...How do they justify that?

[flyingdi]

I'm pretty sure "Honor thy mother and thy father" is one of the top five commandments in that Old Testament they follow so well, too!

[GEML]

I'm sure they give plenty, one way or another, to Gothard's organization. And in all honesty, if it weren't for Baptist men deciding to take matters into their own hands, often without education of any kind, there would be a fraction of Baptist churches in America today. Jim Bob is only following a long standing tradition. Old Baptist joke: what do you get when you put three Baptist families in a room? Answer: four new churches. So while I would never wish to sit under his spiritual guidance ( shudder) I'm hard pressed to argue that he's less capable than hundreds of men who have done what he's done ( and are doing) before him.

[Absolom]

 

And in all honesty, if it weren't for Baptist men deciding to take matters into their own hands, often without education of any kind, there would be a fraction of Baptist churches in America today. Jim Bob is only following a long standing tradition. Old Baptist joke: what do you get when you put three Baptist families in a room? Answer: four new churches. So while I would never wish to sit under his spiritual guidance ( shudder) I'm hard pressed to argue that he's less capable than hundreds of men who have done what he's done ( and are doing) before him.

I've never been a fan of justifying things by the numbers game.  All those uneducated and untrained men could be spewing forth nonsense and have hundreds if not thousands following them just as Jim Bob leads people into Gothardism.  So they could all be leading people astray.  We have dozens of little splinter Baptist churches near me. If they could agree they could have two or three financially stable churches instead of more than a dozen shaky ones.  

[Wellfleet]

I've never been a fan of justifying things by the numbers game.  All those uneducated and untrained men could be spewing forth nonsense and have hundreds if not thousands following them just as Jim Bob leads people into Gothardism.  So they could all be leading people astray.  We have dozens of little splinter Baptist churches near me. If they could agree they could have two or three financially stable churches instead of more than a dozen shaky ones.  

 

100% agree. And some of the reason for the disdain of formal education is beginning to make itself clear. It doesn't justify it but it does help explain it a bit. Some gomer back in the day - with a major inferiority/insecurity complex and not much else - decided that he just didn't NEED to have the proper training to preach. In truth he was either too lazy to do the work involved - or he was afraid he COULDN'T do it. But he was going to be a real rogue and go ahead anyway. What's going to be next? A few half-baked doctors or lawyers in the mix, I guess...

[galax-arena]

Yeah, I realize that ages ago there was a lot of classism involved in making sure that only the "elite" were allowed to lead, but I feel like the Duggars and their ilk have gone too far the other way in promoting a culture of anti-intellectualism. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by galax-arena

[GEML]

Well, anti-intellectualism has always had a role in American history. We did once have a political party proudly called the "know nothing's" and the evolutionists lost the Scopes trial officially. Not advocating for it, simply recognizing it for what it is.

[galax-arena]

I'm not arguing that anti-intellectualism is anything new... 

[Barb23]

While searching for something on TV this morning I came across the last 20 minutes of Dr. Charles Stanley's program. Remember he is the minister that MEchelle got all giddy about when he visited them & ate TTC & signed their bibles. His sermon was on Temptation so I decided to watch since this is a favorite topic of the Duggars.

He seems to have a different meaning of temptation/accountability than the Duggars do. He said temptation is not a sin & God protects us in times of temptation. He went on to say that you have to take responsibility for temptation & you don't have to yield to it. He also brought up accountability & said that WHEN YOU NEED IT, you could ask a trustworthy friend to be your "accountability friend" to help you. He emphasized trustworthy & not have to depend on another when you should be able to make the decision yourself to give in to temptation or not. Well that's a lot different than Boob & MEchelle's beliefs about the children always having to have someone with them to be their accountability partner. According to what Dr. Stanley said, you shouldn't need to have your sister yell NIKE when a scantily clad lady passes by. You should be able to handle the temptation on your own possibly by just letting her walk by & not giving into Satan to jump her bones.

[Sew Sumi]

Cross-posting these radio shows from the JB/Mechelle thread. They're definitely relevant to the conversation about temptation, since they talk about taking away all the NIKE distractions. One way they do this is by giving some of the boys cheap trac flip-phones so they can't access the internet. Apparently, women aren't visually stimulated, only by touch, says JB. There are plenty more eye-rolling gems in these podcasts. 

 

Part One: http://www.covenanteyes.com/2015/02/11/

 

Part Two: http://www.covenanteyes.com/2015/02/18/

[JoanArc]

I recapped one in the media thread. Hope Jer gets that$1000,

[Darknight]

Cross-posting these radio shows from the JB/Mechelle thread. They're definitely relevant to the conversation about temptation, since they talk about taking away all the NIKE distractions. One way they do this is by giving some of the boys cheap trac flip-phones so they can't access the internet. Apparently, women aren't visually stimulated, only by touch, says JB. There are plenty more eye-rolling gems in these podcasts.

Part One: http://www.covenanteyes.com/2015/02/11/

Part Two: http://www.covenanteyes.com/2015/02/18/

JimChelle have a horrible sex life. So Michelle wasn't never once turned on by jB?

[GEML]

Charles Stanley is pretty standard conservative Southern Baptist. Very conservative (both theologically and politically) but not out of the mainstream like Gothard is. He is likely who the Duggars were following before Gothard, and it's too bad they strayed away from that, as they still could have been pretty much who they are, but maybe with a little less fear of everything (including higher education - Stanley is affiliated with Bob Jones University, which has it's own issues, but at least would have provided the children with a secondary and for some, a college education) and more social interaction, for instance.

But watching Michelle's groupie crush on him was fascinating. I'd never seen her so animated.

Edited March 23, 2015 by GEML

[kalamac]

You'd think fangirling over someone enough to have them sign your bible would be frowned upon. If they think the bible is the literal word of God, shouldn't He be the only one allowed to sign it.

[GEML]

That was weird to me too. It was, to me, a sign that they really do follow men's teaching and not the Bible. A very subtle sign, but one nonetheless. I collected autographs as a child, but no one would EVER have signed my Bible, except to record dates, such as for my being presented with it, birth, baptism, marriage, etc.

[msblossom]

That's pretty standard in the rural and deep South, so I've heard, to have a pastor sign your Bible. I'm from the North all the way on the other side of the U.S., and moved to the South, when I heard about the Bible signing I thought that was so odd.

[Absolom]

It's probably a relatively new thing with the Bible signing.  I grew up in the south and it wasn't a thing at all when I lived there.  It would have definitely been thought odd. 

[GEML]

My southern grandmother would have died, I think! But part of me could see the appeal, as we live in a different world than the one I grew up in.

[msblossom]

Agreed, GEML.

I asked my husband about this and he said it's usually done bc someone has been inspired by or looked up to a pastor and asks them to sign their Bible. And there are so many "celebrity" pastors these days, we live in a celebrity driven culture. I don't think it's the right thing to do as a pastor...it's not like he authored the book.

[JoanArc]

Talk about false idolatry.

[Skittl1321]

I'm not surprised people ask- but I'm shocked that a pastor would actually sign.

[JenCarroll]

They're certainly self-isolating. I sometimes think they're "Church of Jim Bob" more than anything. I have the feeling they've taken things that fall into the category of "We can't be bothered, times nineteen," like sports and other socialization opportunities, and just conveniently labeled them "Un-Godly."

And now I've moved pretty much completely away from the thread topic. Any further thoughts on this will be on the Religion thread; feel free to respond over there.

Own post,

copied over here from the Jessa's Wedding thread, since we went way off-topic. :-)

Edited April 6, 2015 by JenCarroll

[GEML]

It's certainly positive that they are less and less influenced from Gothard, and I believe them when they say they are. But I think this has simply meant they feel Jim Bob is their total spiritual authority, and, well, we've heard his Bible "lessons." Moss is Gods carpet, indeed.

[JenCarroll]

It's certainly positive that they are less and less influenced from Gothard, and I believe them when they say they are. But I think this has simply meant they feel Jim Bob is their total spiritual authority, and, well, we've heard his Bible "lessons." Moss is Gods carpet, indeed.

Oh, I thought that was a science lesson. :-)

[Albanyguy]

Scholar theologian Jim Bob Duggar clearly stated that "this is where King James WROTE the bible.....to his children, seriously, can you imagine that?

 

 

I wish there had been someone there to point out to Jim Bob that when King James wasn't writing the Bible, he was having hot man-on-man sex with his boyfriend, the Duke of Buckingham. *

 

* Okay, the issue of whether King James I was bisexual is a matter of historical conjecture, but there's enough there to make Jim Bob's head explode.

[3girlsforus]

 

Scholar theologian Jim Bob Duggar clearly stated that "this is where King James WROTE the bible.....to his children, seriously, can you imagine that?

 

This is right up there in stupidity with the Jesus turned water into grape juice thing. Does JB not understand the concept of translation?? Not to mention King James didn't do it at all. He commissioned it and 40 something other men actually did the translation. 

[Barb23]

It's certainly positive that they are less and less influenced from Gothard, and I believe them when they say they are. But I think this has simply meant they feel Jim Bob is their total spiritual authority, and, well, we've heard his Bible "lessons." Moss is Gods carpet, indeed.

Wonder what he considers mold to be.

[Portia]

Wonder what he considers mold to be.

Satan's toe jam? Just spitballing here.

[jcbrown]

This piece by President Jimmy Carter made me think of the Duggars, particularly the final paragraph:

 

The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.

 

Here's the whole piece: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html

What Carter said resonated with me in that the Duggars' cult has utterly and completely made exactly the decision to interpret scripture to the detriment of equal treatment for women. I do not understand why a rational woman would choose to subjugate herself to such teachings. I know that is how cults work and I have some intellectual grasp of how it happens--I just viscerally cannot get my brain around it.

[Wellfleet]

This piece by President Jimmy Carter made me think of the Duggars, particularly the final paragraph:

 

Here's the whole piece: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html

What Carter said resonated with me in that the Duggars' cult has utterly and completely made exactly the decision to interpret scripture to the detriment of equal treatment for women. I do not understand why a rational woman would choose to subjugate herself to such teachings. I know that is how cults work and I have some intellectual grasp of how it happens--I just viscerally cannot get my brain around it.

 

Agree, and I would add that I think the operative word here is "rational." Rational women do not choose to go along with this kind of treatment - these are damaged individuals. As are, I suspect, the men who try to use these teachings for their own selfish purposes. I don't excuse them, but strongly suspect Gothard et al had childhoods that no child should have had to endure.

[JoanArc]

Oh Dear, I found a movie The Duggars would love....dating is bad. Too bad it stars people in their mid 30's, otherwise the could court!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p0ozDjAQco

[DangerousMinds]

It's odd to me that Jesus had quite a bit to say regarding divorce, and nothing about gay marriage, yet gay marriage seems to be looked upon as far worse a sin according to many of today's "Christians."

[Apple Clark]

It's odd to me that Jesus had quite a bit to say regarding divorce, and nothing about gay marriage, yet gay marriage seems to be looked upon as far worse a sin according to many of today's "Christians."

I'm a Christian, and I don't support gay marriage. I don't actively protest it, but I'm not supporting it. Anyway, he did say something, and if you would care to look them up: Leviticus 18: 21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:27, Judges 19:22, Genesis 19:5, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-10. (I only knew the Leviticus and Judges ones, but looked up and then read the others.) As for divorce, it isn't exactly divorce that's wrong it's adultery. Cheating and such.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Apple Clark

[DangerousMinds]

But Jesus' own proclamations are found only in the New Testament, obviously. Not Leviticus. But it does seem to me that funnies in particular like to "mix and match," if you will.

I haven't read the Bible in many years and know there are different translations, etc., but I remember some pretty strong declarations against divorce, in particular.

One last comment (I know this is the wrong thread for all this), but I just wonder why we don't hear people like Boob, Smugs and the like protest and speak against divorce, at all.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DangerousMinds

[JoanArc]

 

One last comment (I know this is the wrong thread for all this), but I just wonder why we don't hear people like Boob, Smugs and the like protest and speak against divorce, at all.

 

For that matter - where's courtship in the bible? Jill and Derrick's little 3 month adventure in not-dating was pretty extra-biblical.

[Wellfleet]

But Jesus' own proclamations are found only in the New Testament, obviously. Not Leviticus. But it does seem to me that funnies in particular like to "mix and match," if you will.

I haven't read the Bible in many years and know there are different translations, etc., but I remember some pretty strong declarations against divorce, in particular.

One last comment (I know this is the wrong thread for all this), but I just wonder why we don't hear people like Boob, Smugs and the like protest and speak against divorce, at all.

 

I think they don't talk about it for one simple reason - they couldn't get an audience for it.

[Apple Clark]

Not all divorce is wrong. I have a friend and her dad cheated on her mom (this is when we were growing up), and they divorced. Well, is it the divorce that was wrong, or the cheating? It's not divorce that's wrong, it's the things that cause it.

[galax-arena]

One last comment (I know this is the wrong thread for all this), but I just wonder why we don't hear people like Boob, Smugs and the like protest and speak against divorce, at all.

Divorce isn't a convenient scapegoat for the Duggars. They're from Arkansas, which leads the nation in third marriages. 

 

And as one florist from Georgia put it, "It's a different kind of sin to me." Translation: hypocrisy.

 

Genesis 19:5

IMO this verse is constantly misinterpreted. The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was inhospitality, considering that the men were threatening to rape visiting angels.

 

Ezekiel 16:49 explicitly addresses what Sodom's problem was: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." 

Oh Dear, I found a movie The Duggars would love....dating is bad. Too bad it stars people in their mid 30's, otherwise the could court!

It looks like they go out without chaperones, though! Who knows what sexually immoral hijinks they could be getting up to? 

Edited April 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[flyingdi]

I grew up Catholic and for some reason I always thought it wasn't necessarily the divorce that was wrong. I was under the impression that, at least Catholics, thought it was getting married again was wrong. I fully admit I may have misunderstood what they were trying to teach. At any rate, I doubt the Duggars would care what a Catholic thinks seeing as how we are not real Christians.

[lianau]

 I don't really get  that chaperon  business . I mean even Laura Ingalls went on unsupervised buggy rides with Almanzo and that was in the 19th century.

[Apple Clark]

I grew up Catholic and for some reason I always thought it wasn't necessarily the divorce that was wrong. I was under the impression that, at least Catholics, thought it was getting married again was wrong. I fully admit I may have misunderstood what they were trying to teach. At any rate, I doubt the Duggars would care what a Catholic thinks seeing as how we are not real Christians.

I consider Catholic people to be real Christians, but then again I'm not a fundie, CoC, Baptist, ect. (They probably wouldn't consider me to be a real Christian either, I go to an Anglican church). I've never heard about not being allowed to remarry though, that's interesting.

[Micks Picks]

Divorce was not considered wrong.  It was the remarriage that was at issue.  The basis was that you can't "until death do you part" to 2 people at the same time.  If the ex died, remarriage was no problem.  Certainly, infidelity, drunkeness, and abuse were perfectly reasonable, maybe preferable, excuses for divorce.

 

Anglicans often call themselves "Catholic light" around here.  Their services are so similar.

[flyingdi]

The one way you could/can get remarried in the Catholic church and have it considered valid is annulment. Some of this may be changing under Pope Francis, he has some different ideas. I think however you still have to get a marriage annulled before getting remarried as of now. Getting an annulment is not an easy thing however.

I don't really get  that chaperon  business . I mean even Laura Ingalls went on unsupervised buggy rides with Almanzo and that was in the 19th century.

And Almanzo was so much older than Laura. Scandalous!

[pinguina]

In the Catholic Church, you cannot remarry in the church if you are divorced.  I think that it is not generally approved of and you cannot receive Communion if you remarry and your ex is still alive.  However, you can get an annulment through the Church.  It does take time (any where from two to five years - which is quick because I remember that in the past it could take five or more years) and must be based on that it was not a true marriage because one (or both) in the marriage lied or misled the other upon marriage. Example: one tells spouse he/she is willing to have children but does not have them deliberately - this happened to my friend and his marriage was annulled it took about three years.  Also it takes a lot of paper work, both spouses have to get (I believe) about 5 people who witnessed how the marriage played out from "courting" to wedding to the marriage itself to fill out a questioniare (spelling?)  regarding the marriage. The form is about three pages long and requires answering each question on separate papers. It must also be notarized and sent to the diocese.  

Sorry I went on about this - it just caught my attention because  I know a couple of people who did this and it was a process.

[galax-arena]

I mean even Laura Ingalls went on unsupervised buggy rides with Almanzo and that was in the 19th century.

Well, Laura Ingalls was clearly a brazen hussy. And way too independent-minded for the Duggars.

 

Some denominations/churches do consider divorce itself to be wrong. When I was part of a Southern Baptist affiliated college fellowship group, I remember asking my Bible study leader about divorce:

 

Me: "Okay, but what if the husband is abusive?"

Her: "Well, then we'd probably try to get you to a safer location, away from him if necessary."

Me: "But what about actually divorcing so I'm not tied to him anymore?"

Her: "..." 

 

Have we heard the Duggars ever speak about divorce, anyway? Like I said upthread, divorce isn't a convenient scapegoat for them, so of course they're not going to harp on it, but now I'm wondering if they've ever addressed the subject at all.

Edited April 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[hlemommy]

As a southern baptist christian and someone who has read the bible a few times, the bible says you can get divorced and remarry, but two divorced people can't marry each other, one has to have never been married or else it's sin. I can find verses to back this up after I have my coffee if needed

[questionfear]

I'm a Christian, and I don't support gay marriage. I don't actively protest it, but I'm not supporting it. Anyway, he did say something, and if you would care to look them up: Leviticus 18: 21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:27, Judges 19:22, Genesis 19:5, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-10. (I only knew the Leviticus and Judges ones, but looked up and then read the others.) As for divorce, it isn't exactly divorce that's wrong it's adultery. Cheating and such.

 

Ok, I have a question, and I swear I am not being combative, I want to genuinely understand this.

 

I respect that you believe the bible and Jesus were against gay marriage. That's your beliefs and I would never tell anyone they aren't allowed to believe their own religion. However, I am not christian, did not grow up in a christian faith, and do not believe in Jesus as a religious figure. In fact, I am Jewish, and my branch of Judaism has supported gay marriage for many, many years. My wife and I had a religious ceremony before a rabbi, and we have a jewish marriage contract (a Ketubah) in addition to our state marriage license. We have a young child who is being raised jewish and was blessed with a jewish name and welcomed into the jewish faith. Essentially, we want and need absolutely nothing from your faith, nor are we asking for any blessing or approval from your church.

 

Given all that, why does it matter to you if I am married to another woman?