S04.E23: We Are The Flash

[SevenStars]

9 hours ago, KirkB said:

It certainly looked that way to me. Which is the part I don't understand. Speedsters shouldn't be able to do that. They can travel through time but I have never seen any indication they can manipulate it like that.

Maybe this is how it looks when time is being change. Because this is the first time that we don't just see Barry running and changing time, instead we are viewing  it from someone whose time is being change, not from the one who is changing time. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by SevenStars

[wingster55]

38 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Maybe this is how it looks when time is being change. Because this is the first time that we don't just see Barry running and changing time, instead we are view it from someone whose time is being, not from the one who is changing time. 

That's what I was thinking. 

[benteen]

46 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Team Flash didn't bother inviting Cecile's other daughter to the party? 

Well, it's pretty clear that Cecile has absolutely no friends outside of Team Flash so I guess you might as well pretend now that she doesn't have any family either.

That was a very anti-climatic final threat.  I liked Neil Sandilands but Devoe was pretty much reduced to giving stupid evil looks at the end of this episode.  They really have to get away from the whole villain of the year format and maybe it's time that they move out of Star Labs.  Some nice moments with Harry and even finding Ralph.  Nora is Barry and Iris's daughter..."big shock."  Even more of a "big shock" is that like her father she managed to wreck the timeline, probably because of her own selfishness...

[BeautifulFlower]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

 

As usual, Caitlin is whatever doctor they need her to be for the plot. I was really hoping that the baby wouldn't be born in STAR Labs. I wanted that kid to have a good start in life.

 

I knew the baby would be born there. Everything has to happen there. I know Cecile had to be used a plot device, but they could've done a better job on why Cecile and Joe were there.. Because I'm confused about something?

 

Were Cecile and Joe at home when the Enlightenment started? If so, did they walk to Star Labs, because everything wasn't working (phones, lights, cars)?

[DavidJSnyder]

20 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 

Were Cecile and Joe at home when the Enlightenment started? If so, did they walk to Star Labs, because everything wasn't working (phones, lights, cars)?

They mentioned that they were in their car relatively nearby when it happened.

[kirinan]

13 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I want the Rogues as the big bads next season.  No world domination plot, no extinction plot, just a group of villains that want to steal things.

I think Barry was supposed to survive, but not get help.  That's what Nora screwed up, she wasn't supposed to help.  Man, those Allens just need to stay away from the timeline, they've caused it to suffer enough.

I admit if they'd find some way to bring back Captain Cold, I'd be all over that idea. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by kirinan

[tkc]

11 hours ago, KirkB said:

Barry and Ralph's fight with the many Devoes gave me Matrix Reloaded flashbacks. Which, for the record, is not a good thing.

Devoe: As you can see, we've had our eye on you for some time now, Mr. Allen. It seems that you've been living two lives. In one life, you're Bartholomew H. Allen, forensic scientist for the Central City Police Department. You have a Social Security number, you pay your taxes, and... you help your landlady carry out the garbage. The other life is lived in the Speed Force, where you go by the alias "Flash", and are guilty of virtually every temporal crime we have a law for. One of these lives has a future, and one of them does not.

[Quark]

A disappointing finale. I was expecting more of a fight between Barry and Devoe. I was confused though as to why Devoe didn't use his powers whilst Barry and Ralph could.

Speaking of Ralph, why is he back? He is so irritating.

I did like how Cecile was so integral to Barry beating Devoe. I'm also super glad she made it out alive. She has been a shining light this season, which overall hasn't been the greatest.

That Team Flash hug at the end was adorable.

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, this was kind of a really dumb way to end Devoe's villain story. Are we sure the writers themselves didn't get Enlightened? 

In all seriousness, it was all very predictable. It was Ralph's body so of course he would regain control. I assume, like all the other metas that Devoe possessed, they were still alive up until their bodies died, which meant that they didn't die upon transference like everyone thought. 

I like Hartley Sawyer but I haven't really enjoyed Ralph, so I'm torn on his return. I predicted it, and I fully expect that Hartley will be promoted to a series regular for next season. I'm just hoping that this "am I a hero or not" crap can stop. That being said, Ralph was ok in this episode. More of this Ralph, and I won't be fully annoyed. 

No surprise about Cecile's powers being able to transfer Barry's mind to Devoe/Ralph, but I appreciate them using her and trying to find a purpose other than comedic relief. And, no surprise they had Cecile give birth in STAR Labs with Caitlin now shadowing as an OB-GYN? Next thing you know, she'll be able to perform brain surgery (unless she already has). That being said, baby Jenna is cute. AND she was given a name not typically given to TV babies! At the very least, we've had Jenna characters, but babies typically are given a certain type of name, but it's usually something like Jennifer, not Jenna. 

Marlize has been a highlight of this season, and I am thrilled she survived through it. I fully expected her death, especially her sacrificing herself. I'm glad this wasn't the case, and she gets to go do humanitarian work! And there's a possibility for her return since she's not firmly an anti-hero/redeemed ally! I wouldn't call her a hero, but she's definitely no longer a villain. 

So, Harry's gone. What a weird way to end his season. I mean, I'm glad he's gone to be with Jesse, but it felt very sudden, as if the show just remembered that there needs to be a new Harrison next season and they needed to get rid of this one fast. 

I'm glad they got Iris to be the voice in Barry's head. You can tell how much it helped Barry to hear her voice. 

LOL at Wally popping in to essentially brag about his awesome role on Legends. 

No surprise, Nora is Barry and Iris' daughter from the future. So, I do think that part of her did get stuck because of her helping Barry with the satellites, but I still think she came back from the future in the first place because of Iris. Also, I guess either the future changed because of Nora and it caused her to get a haircut, or she changed her look in the last 21 days for reasons. Or, I guess the actress did. 

[marketdoctor]

I didn't have as much of a problem with Caitlyn being able to deliver a baby, on the grounds that:

1.  She'd done a few in med. school.

2.  This seemed like a normal delivery (for this show), which although still an amazing miracle, etc., is in the wheelhouse of almost any MD to handle.

3.  As noted above, Joe and Cecile were nearby, and it was probably a better place to deliver a baby than Jitters.

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, marketdoctor said:

I didn't have as much of a problem with Caitlyn being able to deliver a baby, on the grounds that:

1.  She'd done a few in med. school.

2.  This seemed like a normal delivery (for this show), which although still an amazing miracle, etc., is in the wheelhouse of almost any MD to handle.

3.  As noted above, Joe and Cecile were nearby, and it was probably a better place to deliver a baby than Jitters.

It;s not so much that Caitlin delivered the baby, it's the fact that everything happens in Star Labs. Everything. It would have been nice if Cecile gave birth in an hospital.

 

Also, some people are annoyed by Caitlin doing every job. She's a bioengineerist, a physicist, chemist, medical surgeon, obstetrician, etc. Even for a fictional show, this is unrealistic. Considering her messy KF story, not making her a villain, and her numerous "scientific" jobs, the writers clearly don't know how to write her outside of being the "team doctor". In my eyes, Caitlin exists to be nothing more than a plot device on the show.

[SnoGirl]

9 hours ago, mxc90 said:

When Barry was standing in front of the crowd taking triumphant bows and half his face exposed, Singh should have shouted "Barry did get my voice mail? See you at 8:00 sharp!". He might as well follow Oliver and announce to the world he is the Flash.

Team Flash didn't bother inviting Cecile's other daughter to the party? 

I would have liked Marlize to join the team but there are too many in that group.

Can I just say, if Singh doesnt put it together bc Barry’s facemask was ripped, he shouldnt be in charge. Come ON! That was literally one whole side of his face.

I’d be down for a humbler, more down to earth Ralph. But if he gets super annoying, I want a female superhero to replace him asap.

So Nora acted kinda frosty towards Caitlyn and Harry at Jitters, but obviously then, the another Harry down the line is going to possibly be evil right? 

Also, if Barry “died” originally during this tineline, wouldnt that mean for Nora to exist, Iris would have to be pregnant right now? Maybe Barry wouldnt have died but something else would have happened to him, or Nora couldnt resist fighting with her father again. I also kinda wish that the reset we saw with Nora helping was actually her power. We’ve seen her speed off already, so I know its not...but it could be fun to see variations of a speedster powers instead of being able to run and heal fast. Like, Nora could only run fast if she’s going back in time to change something. A reverse speedster if you will. Goes against everything we know about the Speed Force, but it could be a fun idea ?

[Rachel RSL]

9 hours ago, mxc90 said:

When Barry was standing in front of the crowd taking triumphant bows and half his face exposed, Singh should have shouted "Barry did get my voice mail? See you at 8:00 sharp!". He might as well follow Oliver and announce to the world he is the Flash

I honestly thought that was the scene where Barry finally got outed as The Flash. I mean, come on, you could basically see his entire face! I couldn't believe it when he just stood there, smiling...not caring that anyone could be taking pics and posting them. And then, I really couldn't believe it when they cut to the next scene and they were all just acting like normal because not a single person recognized Barry. 

[adora721]

"I have found Thomas; he's been this way all the time." This is what Cecile said when she grabbed Caitlin. When I first watched this, I didn't know whose thoughts Cecile was reading. After watching a review video on YT, the reviewer thinks it was Killer Frost that Cecile was channeling. If so, how could KF find anyone? She's inside Caitlin's body. Does this indicate that there's a third personality inside Caitlin that KF found? Or does this indicate that KF has a memory of having found whoever Thomas is in the real world at some other point and is relaying that to Caitlin via Cecile?

 

Curioser and curioser!

Edited May 23, 2018 by adora721

[mxc90]

45 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I honestly thought that was the scene where Barry finally got outed as The Flash. I mean, come on, you could basically see his entire face! I couldn't believe it when he just stood there, smiling...not caring that anyone could be taking pics and posting them. And then, I really couldn't believe it when they cut to the next scene and they were all just acting like normal because not a single person recognized Barry

TMZ or extortion doesn't exist in this universe.

 

1 hour ago, SnoGirl said:

Also, if Barry “died” originally during this tineline, wouldnt that mean for Nora to exist, Iris would have to be pregnant right now? Maybe Barry wouldnt have died but something else would have happened to him, or Nora couldnt resist fighting with her father again

Iris being pregnant or she is from another earth. She proved she is Barry's daughter by messing up the timeline and showing up at their doorsteps for a bailout.

If Barry is dead, did Iris or Uncle Wally or time masters preach to never go back and change history or the time wraiths will come looking for you?

[Trini]

3 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Can I just say, if Singh doesnt put it together bc Barry’s facemask was ripped, he shouldnt be in charge. Come ON! That was literally one whole side of his face.

I still maintain that Singh KNOWS but he has to pretend so that he has some plausible deniability. I wish they'd at least let the audience know that he knows.

[Macktor]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I still maintain that Singh KNOWS but he has to pretend so that he has some plausible deniability. I wish they'd at least let the audience know that he knows.

Singh and Lena Luthor should form a club...

[CTrent29]

Season Four was probably the first one that I did not love.  It seemed to veer between heavy-handed humor - even without Ralph and a very annoying main villain.  But I was satisfied with the finale.

Edited May 24, 2018 by CTrent29

[ms.o]

Mediocre finale, but I’m a sucker for cute babies and Wally!

why was Joe able to resist Devoe and the gun? I don’t reCall anyone being able to resist. Does Joe have some meta in him? My initial reaction was that Joe is so connected to his emotions/love ones that would fight like hell to stay around. Maybe?

[dingochick]

More Marlize, please. Such a great actress, and as a bonus, no slick villain hair...

[Trini]

Marlize's line about the Team's "emotional attachment" (::gag::) to Ralph making them powerful was so clunky. I get that the theme they're emphasizing was 'teamwork', but it didn't really ring true, based on most of the team's past interactions with Ralph.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Nora? Nora???!!?? Why isn’t her name Dawn????? And what about

her twin, Don?????!!!

I FUCKING HATE these writers so, so much.

What I did like was how Barry focused on Iris, Iris being the one in his head, asking him if he was okay, talking to him, and Barry not getting his ass kicked. But the best thing for me, aside from Joe ripping Marlize a new one, was the CGI as Barry ran and flew to bust that satellite.

Singh totally knows Barry is the Flash. Otherwise he would have fired Barry’s ass a loooong time ago. 

And unlike others here, I don’t want to see Marlize ever again. 

Again with Caitlin LYING about who Thomas is. What is the BIG FUCKING DEAL about admitting that’s her father’s name? The one who died? That’s why her mom was such a cold fish-she was still mourning and missing her husband and that’s why she kept Caitlin at a distance. She keeps lying and lying to her team and “family,” and it’s totes okay with them because...reasons.?????

Add me to the list who think Baby Jenna is ADORBS!!!!

[FortKnox]

Ok, Barry was going on and on about how they can't kill Devoe but, by having Ralph take back his body they've killed Devoe. So what was the difference?

Besides, the fact if they killed Devoe months ago they could have saved those metas lives and saved themselves a lot of heartache.

[SevenStars]

9 minutes ago, FortKnox said:

Ok, Barry was going on and on about how they can't kill Devoe but, by having Ralph take back his body they've killed Devoe. So what was the difference?

Besides, the fact if they killed Devoe months ago they could have saved those metas lives and saved themselves a lot of heartache.

 I think the difference is that Barry knew Devoe was already dead when he told Ralph this. Also, even if Devoe wasn't already dead, it wouldn't have been right for Barry to be okay with Ralph staying inside of Devoe in order for Devoe to stay alive. Either way, Devoe killed himself or already died, and Ralph had a right to take his body back. 

 

I hate saying the above cause I wanted Ralph to stay dead, even if it meant Devoe stay alive. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by SevenStars

[adora721]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Again with Caitlin LYING about who Thomas is. What is the BIG FUCKING DEAL about admitting that’s her father’s name? The one who died? That’s why her mom was such a cold fish-she was still mourning and missing her husband and that’s why she kept Caitlin at a distance. She keeps lying and lying to her team and “family,” and it’s totes okay with them because...reasons.?????

One of the reasons (stupid) that the team doesn't call Caitlin out is that they are too close to her to really see her clearly. They are too attached to the "good, nice, sweet" Caitlin that they knew in the past. My hope is that Nora will call out Caitlin for her lies and selfishness since Nora isn't emotionally attached to Caitlin. That look of distrust or disgust Nora gave Caitlin after their first meeting at Jitters suggests that Nora won't be suffering Caitlin's foolishness like the team does. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, FortKnox said:

Ok, Barry was going on and on about how they can't kill Devoe but, by having Ralph take back his body they've killed Devoe. So what was the difference?

Besides, the fact if they killed Devoe months ago they could have saved those metas lives and saved themselves a lot of heartache.

 

53 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

 I think the difference is that Barry knew Devoe was already dead when he told Ralph this. Also, even if Devoe wasn't already dead, it wouldn't have been right for Barry to be okay with Ralph staying inside of Devoe in order for Devoe to stay alive. Either way, Devoe killed himself or already died, and Ralph had a right to take his body back. 

 

I hate saying the above cause I wanted Ralph to stay dead, even if it meant Devoe stay alive. 

Actually I think while Ralph was in the process of getting his body back, DeVoe transferred his conscious into the chair. Marlize pulled something out of the chair which effectively killed DeVoe. If Devoe didn't put his consciousness in the chair, he might still be alive in Ralph's body.

[BeautifulFlower]

8 minutes ago, adora721 said:

One the reasons (stupid) that the team doesn't call Caitlin out is that they are too close to her to really see her clearly. They are too attached to the "good, nice, sweet" Caitlin that they knew in the past. My hope is that Nora will call out Caitlin for her lies and selfishness since Nora isn't emotionally attached to Caitlin. That look of distrust or disgust Nora gave Caitlin after their first meeting at Jitters suggests that Nora won't be suffering Caitlin's foolishness like the team does. 

Everybody is emotionally attached and close to each other, but they had no problems calling each other out when they need to. It's different with Caitlin for some reason/ They are literally portraying her as if she can do no wrong and is a victim.

 

I hope the writers don't forget 4x15. Nora said she was meeting people for the first time (obviously Harry and Caitlin). Harry left this episode, so there's that reason why he isn't in Nora's life as an adult. She gave a scornful look towards Caitlin which means they don't have a relationship in the future.

[Katsullivan]

16 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

One of the reasons (stupid) that the team doesn't call Caitlin out is that they are too close to her to really see her clearly. They are too attached to the "good, nice, sweet" Caitlin that they knew in the past. My hope is that Nora will call out Caitlin for her lies and selfishness since Nora isn't emotionally attached to Caitlin. That look of distrust or disgust Nora gave Caitlin after their first meeting at Jitters suggests that Nora won't be suffering Caitlin's foolishness like the team does. 

Everybody is emotionally attached and close to each other, but they had no problems calling each other out when they need to. It's different with Caitlin for some reason/ They are literally portraying her as if she can do no wrong and is a victim.

 

I'll get crap for this but there's no other reason but that as the only white woman on the cast, Caitlin has a permanent Immunity Plot Armour. She can literally do no wrong. She can try to kill Iris, actually collude in HR's murder, attack and hurt people ---- and all this will be attributed first to Barry for "breaking her"** or attributed to Killer Frost whom everyone accepted as a matter of course as some separate individual --- and not a manifestation of Caitlin's personality. The show was so determined to Excuse Caitlin  from the repercussions of her actions that they basically had her teammates be indifferent to her having a personality disorder. Caitlin never apologizes to the black women she wronged, and she's disrespectful to Iris, the team leader, again when she breaks another mission to get Killer Frost back. 

 

**(Even though it's now been established that she had powers pre-Flashpoint, watch as everyone ignores this) 

[TV Anonymous]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:01 PM, mtlchick said:

Au revoir DeVoe.  May we NEVER heard about you again.  

Should that not be 'adieu'?

[phoenics]

Well the finale was action packed and enjoyable to watch.

I want to believe that Nora is Barry and Iris' child - but some things are irking me.  Maybe I'm looking for the writers to be more clever, or that they are going to screw with us - or maybe I'm remembering scraps from earlier this season that the writers have dropped but...

Remember when Reverse Flash said Barry would never know when he'd show up again in the future and with whose face?

Maybe the actress changed her hair, but the haircut (which is super cute, btw) is throwing me off and it's still bothering me that she's here without her twin brother and that her name is not Dawn.

Also - her outfit really goes with

Jenni Ognats, which is the granddaughter of Barry and Iris, and they just named Joe and Cecile's baby JENNA

.  It's just left me with a lot of questions and suspicions - partly because I don't trust these writers.

[Terrafamilia]

On 5/23/2018 at 11:18 PM, ms.o said:

why was Joe able to resist Devoe and the gun? I don’t reCall anyone being able to resist. Does Joe have some meta in him? My initial reaction was that Joe is so connected to his emotions/love ones that would fight like hell to stay around. Maybe?

I was under the impression that Cecile had something to do with that.

[SevenStars]

15 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Well the finale was action packed and enjoyable to watch.

I want to believe that Nora is Barry and Iris' child - but some things are irking me.  Maybe I'm looking for the writers to be more clever, or that they are going to screw with us - or maybe I'm remembering scraps from earlier this season that the writers have dropped but...

Remember when Reverse Flash said Barry would never know when he'd show up again in the future and with whose face?

Maybe the actress changed her hair, but the haircut (which is super cute, btw) is throwing me off and it's still bothering me that she's here without her twin brother and that her name is not Dawn.

Also - her outfit really goes with

  Hide contents

Jenni Ognats, which is the granddaughter of Barry and Iris, and they just named Joe and Cecile's baby JENNA

.  It's just left me with a lot of questions and suspicions - partly because I don't trust these writers.

The writers did after show interviews and made it clear that Nora was Barry and Iris' child. That is what he claim they will be exploring in S5.

Edited May 26, 2018 by SevenStars

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, SevenStars said:

The writers did after show interviews and made it clear that Nora was Barry and Iris' child. That is what he claim they will be exploring in S5.

Thanks - that makes me feel better.  

[BaggythePanther]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:28 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nora? Nora???!!?? Why isn’t her name Dawn????? And what about

  Reveal hidden contents

her twin, Don?????!!!

I FUCKING HATE these writers so, so much.

What I did like was how Barry focused on Iris, Iris being the one in his head, asking him if he was okay, talking to him, and Barry not getting his ass kicked. But the best thing for me, aside from Joe ripping Marlize a new one, was the CGI as Barry ran and flew to bust that satellite.

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

Well the finale was action packed and enjoyable to watch.

I want to believe that Nora is Barry and Iris' child - but some things are irking me.  Maybe I'm looking for the writers to be more clever, or that they are going to screw with us - or maybe I'm remembering scraps from earlier this season that the writers have dropped but...

Remember when Reverse Flash said Barry would never know when he'd show up again in the future and with whose face?

Maybe the actress changed her hair, but the haircut (which is super cute, btw) is throwing me off and it's still bothering me that she's here without her twin brother and that her name is not Dawn.

Also - her outfit really goes with

  Reveal hidden contents

Jenni Ognats, which is the granddaughter of Barry and Iris, and they just named Joe and Cecile's baby JENNA

.  It's just left me with a lot of questions and suspicions - partly because I don't trust these writers.

The writers changed her name because they thought Barry would be more likely to name his daughter Nora. They also saw it as a sort of “twist”. ?

Quote

TODD HELBING: When we first started talking about it, we decided on her name like a year ago, right around this time, after we’d pitched the season to the studio and network. It was to pay homage to Barry’s mother. It felt like if Barry and Iris were ever gonna have a child that would be female, that would be one of the names we brought up. It seemed like it didn’t matter — the second that we talked to Jessica Parker Kennedy, we knew that people were gonna figure out pretty quickly who she was. So we had to put a little spin to make it a little bit different than what everybody was expecting.

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/22/flash-mystery-girl-identity-nora-barry-iris-daughter/

 

I also loved that Iris was the one in Barry’s head. They didn’t emphasize it but after a whole season of WestAllen proclaiming “We are the Flash” I’m glad they didn’t shift gears in the finale.

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, SevenStars said:

The writers did after show interviews and made it clear that Nora was Barry and Iris' child. That is what he claim they will be exploring in S5.

Besides, who needs a paternity test in this case?  All Nora has to do is explain how she screwed up the timeline, and everybody will be saying to Barry (in unison), "Yep, she's YOUR daughter, all right!"

[LisaM]

So is Tom C. done or is there another version of Harrison Wells coming to Star Labs next year? I would trade Marlize for another Wells character.  

[BeautifulFlower]

9 hours ago, LisaM said:

So is Tom C. done or is there another version of Harrison Wells coming to Star Labs next year? I would trade Marlize for another Wells character.  

Spoiler

They confirmed in an interview that Tom will be back as another Wells.

[legaleagle53]

On 5/29/2018 at 12:10 AM, LisaM said:

So is Tom C. done or is there another version of Harrison Wells coming to Star Labs next year? I would trade Marlize for another Wells character.  

Tom won't be done with the show until he

says he's done with it.  His contract specifically allows him to play a different version of Wells each season.  That keeps him from getting bored with the part. So yes, he'll be back as a new version of Wells.

[millennium]

By now I suppose it's old hat that Team Flash appoint itself judge and jury, allowing Marlize to walk free despite that she was a willing accessory to multiple murders (not to mention that the amount of product in her hair was almost criminal).   What if she had killed Iris, would they be so blase about it?

[Starry]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

By now I suppose it's old hat that Team Flash appoint itself judge and jury, allowing Marlize to walk free despite that she was a willing accessory to multiple murders (not to mention that the amount of product in her hair was almost criminal).   What if she had killed Iris, would they be so blase about it?

Frost tried to kill half of the team and helped Savitar with his murder plan. They still consider her a valuable asset to Team Flash, going to such great lengths to bring her back. That should answer your question.

[millennium]

2 minutes ago, Starry said:

Frost tried to kill half of the team and helped Savitar with his murder plan. They still consider her a valuable asset to Team Flash, going to such great lengths to bring her back. That should answer your question.

The deciding factor seems to be whether or not the supervillain has experienced a change of heart.   Who cares how many lives were wiped out?  As long as they find the "goodness" within themselves, that's all that matters.    Marlize should have been locked up for life, if not executed by the state.   Instead, she walks out of Star Labs a free woman, probably even with parting gifts (Star Labs sweatshirt, coffee mug, etc).    

By the same token, Team Flash places high value only on the lives of its members.  Everybody else?  Disposable.   Like the chaos-prone girl, and the country singer girl, and the young black guy who became the first victim of Devoe's body-hopping.   Dead, dead, dead.   Of all the people who died at Devoe's hands, the only victim who truly mattered was the one who actually didn't die at all -- Ralph.

I don't read critical reviews of the show but I would hope someone calls out the writers and showrunners about the mockery it makes of justice.

[Starry]

Their morals are questionable. I do agree with you except for this:

 

6 minutes ago, millennium said:

By the same token, Team Flash places high value only on the lives of its members. 

Villains get away with a slap on the wrist even when they're involved in a team member's murder. HR was a friend, Frost aided in his murder and got away with it. I'm sure that Marlize would have been easily forgiven even if Ralph turned out to be dead.

[millennium]

34 minutes ago, Starry said:

Their morals are questionable. I do agree with you except for this:

 

Villains get away with a slap on the wrist even when they're involved in a team member's murder. HR was a friend, Frost aided in his murder and got away with it. I'm sure that Marlize would have been easily forgiven even if Ralph turned out to be dead.

The travesty of justice becomes even more obscene when you consider Barry is an employee of the police department and has used his forensic skills to lock up people for years, if not life, for transgressions that doubtless pale in comparison to the crimes of Marlize and others.

[Kate45]

On 7/19/2018 at 6:01 AM, millennium said:

The travesty of justice becomes even more obscene when you consider Barry is an employee of the police department and has used his forensic skills to lock up people for years, if not life, for transgressions that doubtless pale in comparison to the crimes of Marlize and others.

They have a woman on the team who participated in a human trafficking ring, and was willing to work for the ring again if it meant getting her powers back. The morals of the team have been off for a while. The worst part is that not one person even questions her morality. Joe came the closet to speaking up, but overall they don't seem to care. IT IS WEIRD. 

On 5/23/2018 at 2:22 PM, marketdoctor said:

I didn't have as much of a problem with Caitlyn being able to deliver a baby, on the grounds that:

1.  She'd done a few in med. school.

2.  This seemed like a normal delivery (for this show), which although still an amazing miracle, etc., is in the wheelhouse of almost any MD to handle.

3.  As noted above, Joe and Cecile were nearby, and it was probably a better place to deliver a baby than Jitters.

I had a problem with it for this very simple reason: her going to medial school comes and goes at the drop of a hat. In season 1, they clearly told us that she had a PhD in biochem and genetics. This medical school stuff happened in season 2. But, just at the start of season 4, Cisco claimed that Caitlin had 2 PhDs and a doctorate (which makes no sense: a PhD is a type of doctorate degree). Caitlin's educational background changes based on the needs of the plot, and it is one of the most unrealistic parts of the show. 

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

They have a woman on the team who participated in a human trafficking ring, and was willing to work for the ring again if it meant getting her powers back. The morals of the team have been off for a while. The worst part is that not one person even questions her morality. Joe came the closet to speaking up, but overall they don't seem to care. IT IS WEIRD. 

 

I know many have questioned the team's morals vis a vis locking up metas indefinitely without a trial or any other semblance of civil rights.   I myself have never understood how Barry could strike a deal with Captain Cold allowing him to continue plundering and pillaging as long he stayed out of Barry's way.

These nearly weekly situational ethics fly in the face of established superhero codes.   Superheroes don't bargain with criminals.   They always come down on the side of the law, however painful or inconvenient that can sometimes be.   

[adora721]

Let's not forget Harry murdering the Turtle and not paying for that either. Or that, in 2x4, they locked up Dr. Hewitt  indefinitely "until he agrees to forget about all this." "This" meaning that he knows about Barry being the Flash, SL's activities, and Firestorm. I have yet to hear anyone speak a line about releasing Hewitt. If you recall, Dr. Hewitt was the other candidate, along with Jax, to take Ronnie's place with Stein.

Edited August 2, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

12 hours ago, Kate45 said:

They have a woman on the team who participated in a human trafficking ring, and was willing to work for the ring again if it meant getting her powers back. The morals of the team have been off for a while. The worst part is that not one person even questions her morality. Joe came the closet to speaking up, but overall they don't seem to care. IT IS WEIRD

And that woman is Caitlin Snow, not Killer Frost. So, none can say that Caitlin isn't responsible. In re-watching S2, Caitlin chooses to release E2 Killer Frost before trying to release poor masked Jay Garrick. And she did this despite all the bad things Cisco told her about E2 KF in the previous episodes. But once again, Caitlin chooses to only think of herself and trusts her evil doppelganger.

[BeautifulFlower]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

I know many have questioned the team's morals vis a vis locking up metas indefinitely without a trial or any other semblance of civil rights.   I myself have never understood how Barry could strike a deal with Captain Cold allowing him to continue plundering and pillaging as long he stayed out of Barry's way.

These nearly weekly situational ethics fly in the face of established superhero codes.   Superheroes don't bargain with criminals.   They always come down on the side of the law, however painful or inconvenient that can sometimes be.   

If I remember correctly, didn't Leonard threaten to reveal his identity?

[millennium]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

If I remember correctly, didn't Leonard threaten to reveal his identity?

You may be right, but if so it makes Barry's choice even more reprehensible.   Can you imagine Batman allowing a criminal to continue victimizing citizens because he threatens to reveal that he's Bruce Wayne?   Or Superman?   Never.

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

You may be right, but if so it makes Barry's choice even more reprehensible.   Can you imagine Batman allowing a criminal to continue victimizing citizens because he threatens to reveal that he's Bruce Wayne?   Or Superman?   Never.

I don't know what Barry was suppose to do.