S02.E05: The Kennedy Curse

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, Manda317 said:

I think the reason they feel that killing JFK could of made a difference is JFK came out of nowhere to beat Nixon. He was a shock even to the Democratic Party, who I believe expected Johnson to take the nomination. There was all kinds of backhanded stuff going on during JFK's campaign. If JFK would not have been alive, Nixon would easily have won that election. It was one of the closest elections in history, and it is possible JFK did not even really win. There was fraud that may have flipped his home state, which would have elected Nixon if it had gone to him. The tricks that the Kennedys played during the election had a huge effect on Nixon, and it is possible they influenced his actions during Watergate. 

There was another factor that is given a lot of the credit for swinging things JFK's way in 1960. This was the first time that the debates were televised, and JFK was simply more naturally photogenic than Nixon was. Nixon was so nervous during the debates that he came across as physically weak, and it turned people off, even though the experts said that he won on substance.  Kennedy, by contrast, was cool as a cucumber and won based on a more attractive style.

I was just 2 1/2 at the time of the assassination, but I've read enough about it and seen enough movies and TV shows about it that I can imagine what it must have been like for people who are old enough to remember it in detail.  It was truly one of the watershed events of the 20th Century.

Edited April 17, 2018 by legaleagle53

[thuganomics85]

Definitely enjoyed them flipping thing around a bit and this time having a historical figure brought to the present and accidentally let loose (or in this case, simply escaped.)  The actor playing Young JFK was good and I enjoyed the actress playing Kayla as well (kind of curious to see if there will be lasting effects over her finding out about time travel and all that jazz.)  It was fun seeing the team get to use modern technology for once (Lucy getting excited over using a cellphone was the best!)

So, as of now, Jessica actually seems to be on the up and up, and has even joined the team more or less.  I did like that she wasn't too upset about Wyatt/Lucy, and seemed to understand that they both thought she was dead when that happened.  But she did mention something about Wyatt cheating before, so if that's true, then their relationship really seems to be shaky at best.  In the end though, I suspect Wyatt/Lucy is endgame, so I suspect something is going to happened to Jessica that will remove her from the board.

Carol kidnapping Christopher at least gave Sakina Jaffery something more to do beside bark out orders, but I'm not sure if anything really interesting came out of their scenes.

Oh, Rufus.  Despite his best efforts, he couldn't save JFK.  I guess some things in history are just set no matter what.

Flynn being stuck in 1934 and apparently taking out all three sleeper agents during this entire thing, was a fun reveal.

Even without Carol's interference, Emma still fails to get the job done.  Uh oh!

Next week looks like it could be fun too.

[Quilt Fairy]

11 hours ago, sempervivum said:

The only 20th century president to get a coin was FDR.

And Eisenhower.

[bros402]

12 hours ago, sempervivum said:

The point of this was that there would never have been a JFK coin (in our reality) if he hadn't been a beloved personality who was also assassinated. Despite Lucy breathlessly telling him he was one of the greatest presidents, he isn't really regarded that way by historians, and it's unlikely he would have merited a coin under normal circumstances. The only 20th century president to get a coin was FDR.

The coin turning to Nixon would have to mean that in the alt past, Nixon would have been 1) a great or at least very popular president and 2) assassinated. Writers didn't think this through very well, but I do agree that it was rather chilling on screen.

On the romance front, I'd much rather see more of Rufus and Jiya than the other 2 (or 3!). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States

His aggregate rank is 10, which is pretty decent. Three most recent polls put him at 14, 8, and 16. His highest rank was 18 and his lowest was 6 - so being in the top half isn't that bad.

[SyracuseMug]

Why did history not record that JFK mysteriously vanished from a Connecticut college in 1934? That's essentially what happened when he was brought into 2018. As such, he never was president and would never have been on a coin. More likely, he would be in the same company as Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa.

[plurie]

4 hours ago, SyracuseMug said:

Why did history not record that JFK mysteriously vanished from a Connecticut college in 1934? That's essentially what happened when he was brought into 2018. As such, he never was president and would never have been on a coin. More likely, he would be in the same company as Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa.

It wasn't a college, it was a boarding (prep, high school level) school.

Edited April 17, 2018 by plurie
misread original post

[CCTC]

I am kind of under the impression the coin changing to Nixon was just to show he was in imminent danger and that it probably changed back once they got him out of the party.  I was under the impression that it was Kennedy who was assassinated in Austin from the look on Rufus's face.  I think the writers were just trying to be clever and did not really think it through. 

I definitely could be wrong, although if Nixon did become president in 1960, hopefully that will he addressed in a later episode.  Otherwise it kind of just seems like a cheap twist to shock.

[Mrs. DuRona]

3 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I am kind of under the impression the coin changing to Nixon was just to show he was in imminent danger and that it probably changed back once they got him out of the party

Yeah, they were pulling a "Marty's siblings slowly disappearing" from Back to the Future.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Mrs. DuRona
Typing is hard sometimes...

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But she [Jessica, Wyatt's wife] did mention something about Wyatt cheating before, so if that's true, then their relationship really seems to be shaky at best.  In the end though, I suspect Wyatt/Lucy is endgame, so I suspect something is going to happened to Jessica that will remove her from the board.

Probably Wyatt/Lucy is OTP, but "once a cheater, always a cheater," and although nothing in season one led us to suspect Wyatt was a cheater, that seems to be the retcon, and, he isn't the best actor in the cast, plus, with:

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Flynn being stuck in 1934 and apparently taking out all three sleeper agents during this entire thing, was a

Flynn has now been retconned into a replacement for Wyatt, so…

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

• Young JKF actor's accent: What was that? I even heard some Southern twangs mixed in. I don't usually complain about (or even notice) fake accents, but that made Dick Van Dyke's infamously poor Cockney accent in Mary Poppins seem downright authentic in comparison. Would it have killed the young actor to prepare by listening to a few JKF recordings?
   
• The coin changing:  Just because it no longer has Kennedy on it doesn't mean he was killed—although the threatening situation in the room sort of implied that. It could have just meant he lived long enough into his presidency to fall from popular grace (e.g. caught in bed with someone not his wife and photographed and leaked to the sleazier presses). Or maybe he decided not to run at all. But frickin' Nixon on the coin? Nixon and his sweaty face took way too long getting out of Vietnam, plus the spying and, worst of all, the rabid Antisemitism. 
   
• Jiya's premonitions:  She seems to only see things that cannot be significantly changed by any time traveler's shenanigans. And a lot of other changes are insignificant. The writers seem to be implying some things lie outside of the realm of chance, but are instead predestined—which implies Rittenhouse is either doomed to fail or can only be defeated at great cost.

I have to agree, the accent threw me off, and lessened my enjoyment of the character. It even took me a minute to realize he was supposed to be Jack, even though I knew that's what this episode was about.

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Arguably some of the biggest pieces of legislation LBJ's administration pulled off - in particular the Civil Rights Act - can be attributed to JFK's assassination. Nothing rallies the masses like a martyr. So Rittenhouse's strategy makes sense, if we can ever believe any of it makes sense. 

And if this was the way things worked, then Rufus's attempt at interfering to stop JFK from being assassinated could have ended up having the same effect on history as Rittenhouse's attempt to get rid of JFK before he could become president. A JFK who never became a martyr might not have been as effective a president as his "ghost" ended up being. There's even some speculation that JFK wouldn't have been elected to a second term. It was the assassination that made him into a "great" president, not anything he actually did while in office. So, Rufus might have ended up scuttling the Civil Rights Act if he'd succeeded in saving JFK from assassination.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

Yeah, they were pulling a "Marty's siblings slowly disappearing" from Back to the Future.

But of course using Nixon suggest that it was the times in which he served and not the specific individual which makes one special. So the entire efforts of the Rittenhouse and Lifeboat assassinations are moot

[sempervivum]

44 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And if this was the way things worked, then Rufus's attempt at interfering to stop JFK from being assassinated could have ended up having the same effect on history as Rittenhouse's attempt to get rid of JFK before he could become president. A JFK who never became a martyr might not have been as effective a president as his "ghost" ended up being. There's even some speculation that JFK wouldn't have been elected to a second term. It was the assassination that made him into a "great" president, not anything he actually did while in office. So, Rufus might have ended up scuttling the Civil Rights Act if he'd succeeded in saving JFK from assassination.

For anyone interested in an alt history of 'JFK presidency without the assassination', see Stephen King's '11/22/63' (the ending).

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And Eisenhower.

- Oops, forgot about the Ike coin; of course in addition to his personal popularity, he was also a military genius who won WW2.

[SyracuseMug]

4 hours ago, plurie said:

It wasn't a college, it was a boarding (prep, high school level) school.

Thank you for the correction.

My point was that if Kennedy was removed from the timeline in 1934, he could not have gone on to become president in 1960, and would not be on a coin. Yet the coin existed, and he was remembered as the president. How?

I haven't seen anyone else bring this up, which makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, SyracuseMug said:

My point was that if Kennedy was removed from the timeline in 1934, he could not have gone on to become president in 1960, and would not be on a coin. Yet the coin existed, and he was remembered as the president. How?

I haven't seen anyone else bring this up, which makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

It may just mean that time was in flux. He wasn't yet missed in 1934, and nothing had happened to ensure he wouldn't get back to 1934. As long as that remained a possibility, the future wasn't altered. There was just the wobble with the coin when he was in serious danger. There seems to be a lot of give and self-correction in the timeline, so things don't change until the change is absolute, and even then things tend to end up the same way unless something really major happens. With all the goofing about in the past that they've done, while there are changes like JFK being assassinated in Austin instead of Dallas or the Salem Witch Revolt instead of Witch Trials, the world looks more or less the same, no matter what they do in the past. That idea that the timeline is self-correcting, that the same sorts of things are likely to happen even when you change details, is fairly common in time travel fiction, as is the idea that things don't change until the change is absolute and irreversible. The timeline would have changed if JFK had died in 2018 or if the time machine had blown up and they couldn't return him, but as long as the possibility was open for him to be returned, nothing was altered.

[Dowel Jones]

As many posters have pointed out, the Rittenhouse plan is more than a little obtuse.  Given the razor thin margin of the 1960 election and the irregularities (well known even at the time), Rittenhouse would have been far better off manipulating the voting in key states to give Nixon the win.  They could even staff his cabinet with lackeys to support their mission, and Kennedy would have become more of a footnote than a star.  Perhaps Kennedy or Johnson could have pulled it off in 1964, perhaps not.

[Dirtybubble]

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, as of now, Jessica actually seems to be on the up and up, and has even joined the team more or less.  I did like that she wasn't too upset about Wyatt/Lucy, and seemed to understand that they both thought she was dead when that happened.  But she did mention something about Wyatt cheating before, so if that's true, then their relationship really seems to be shaky at best.  In the end though, I suspect Wyatt/Lucy is endgame, so I suspect something is going to happened to Jessica that will remove her from the board.

 

I just have a bad feeling about the Jessica joins the team story line.  It seems so random.  Hey lets let some random person who has no experience in any of these matters go screwing around with history.  I'm getting a sickly Cousin Oliver vibe out of all of this.

[Stuffy]

My coworker thinks that all the talk about fate and JFK dying even with the warning means Jessica isn't going to stay alive for long. 

[shafted]

16 minutes ago, Dirtybubble said:

I just have a bad feeling about the Jessica joins the team story line.  It seems so random.  Hey lets let some random person who has no experience in any of these matters go screwing around with history.  I'm getting a sickly Cousin Oliver vibe out of all of this.

I'm expecting this Jessica joins the team plan to blow up in everyone's faces. Either the universe course corrects, like it did with Kennedy, and Jessica ends up dead anyway or she's Rittenhouse and Wyatt placed a traitor right in the middle of the team. It's possible Jessica just hangs around for the next 5 episodes before maturely divorcing Wyatt and returning to her outside life. I guess that could happen but that seems too easy. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by shafted

[iMonrey]

Quote

I hate to say this but — Wyatt got his ass kicked by a woman!!!!

Yeah . . . I'm all for strong female characters but the whole point to Wyatt being on this team is that he's supposed to be the group's strongman. He's the muscle, Lucy is the brains, and Rufus is driving the getaway car. Matt Lanter is male model pretty but has never been believable as "muscle."

Quote

And I didn't get the coin change at all. Nothing should have changed unless JFK actually died in 2018, which never happened. Why would just running in the direction of danger change anything?

What's frustrating is that the show had a great opportunity here to show us what would happen if the timeline changed while you were in it. So far, we've had Team Time come back from trips to have people make off-hand remarks about Abe Lincoln's assassin being some rando or always thinking JFK was killed in Austin instead of Dallas. There's never any consequence to anything aside from the minutia. The show just isn't brave enough to really change the world in any significant way. The coin change was a compelling visual but didn't make any sense because they hadn't succeeded in changing anything at that moment. 

Just think how mind-blowing it would have been if Emma had shot JFK, and suddenly the entire scene changed and everyone was thrust into an alternate reality without even realizing it. They would just go about their business like nothing was changed because to them it would seem normal. It's too bad this show isn't ambitious enough to tackle something that profound.

Quote

I enjoyed the actress playing Kayla as well (kind of curious to see if there will be lasting effects over her finding out about time travel and all that jazz.) 

Yeah - you'd think the government that's so hellbent on stopping Rittenhouse would scoop up Kayla and anyone else who'd met JFK and drop them into a safe house somewhere. I can't imagine a girl that age not going all over Facebook and Instagram telling everyone how she met JFK via time travel. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, sempervivum said:

For anyone interested in an alt history of 'JFK presidency without the assassination', see Stephen King's '11/22/63' (the ending).

I haven't read the book, but I watched the one-season series, which did include a post-apocacalypse scene like @iMonrey suggests:

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Just think how mind-blowing it would have been if Emma had shot JFK, and suddenly the entire scene changed and everyone was thrust into an alternate reality without even realizing it. They would just go about their business like nothing was changed because to them it would seem normal. It's too bad this show isn't ambitious enough to tackle something that profound

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I can't imagine a girl that age not going all over Facebook and Instagram telling everyone how she met JFK via time travel. 

In the show's version of Wikipedia, there is now a new entry under JFK Conspiracy Theories, heh.

Edited April 17, 2018 by shapeshifter

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I haven't read the book, but I watched the one-season series, which did include a post-apocacalypse scene like @iMonrey suggests:

Read the book a few times, loved it. Grudgingly watched the series (not a Franco fan), and was ... okay. But the thing that sticks with me has to do with the show as a whole (not just JFK), and relevant to the current commentary:  "The past is obdurate. it doesn't want to change."

[reggiejax]

Quote

Why did history not record that JFK mysteriously vanished from a Connecticut college in 1934? That's essentially what happened when he was brought into 2018. As such, he never was president and would never have been on a coin. More likely, he would be in the same company as Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa.

Likely because the team brought him back close enough after the moment when he went into the future that no one ever thought he was "missing". And I imagine no one ever saw him "disappear" either. 

The dead teacher who was about to shoot young JFK, on the other hand, no doubt made the history books. In fact, that incident would likely be seen as the first event in the "Kennedy Curse", as it pre-dates the other incidents and tragedies that are "canon" by a few years. Of course JFK doesn't die in 1934, but an attempted murder surely is enough to fall under the "curse" heading.

Quote

Yeah - you'd think the government that's so hellbent on stopping Rittenhouse would scoop up Kayla and anyone else who'd met JFK and drop them into a safe house somewhere. I can't imagine a girl that age not going all over Facebook and Instagram telling everyone how she met JFK via time travel. 

Well, we have to remember, in the Timeless world, time travel is still ostensibly a secret. While they might be concerned about Kayla, I doubt they'd have her under watch. And in any case, anything she posted on social media would have the same weight as those YouTube videos that claim to show "proof" that time travel is real. Sure, she'd would be right about time travel, but her "proof" is really no better than the proof in any of those videos. What does she have but photos of a 17 year old JFK, who most people would call out as an imposter. As for Rittenhouse and the NSA, they'd probably just hire a dedicated troll to discredit her online. Though truth be told, there would already be plenty of doubters discrediting her as a liar and/or whackjob.  

Edited April 17, 2018 by reggiejax

[saber5055]

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Young JKF actor's accent: What was that?

THIS one thousand times. It was not even close to JFK ... or any other accent I've ever heard.

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But frickin' Nixon on the coin?

Well, Grampa Rittenhouse did say Nixon was "their" candidate. So there's that.

[Halting Hex]

I'm just glad that Kayla didn't get around to telling JFK about John-John and baby Patrick.  All the other bad news, he didn't need to know about his kids dying, too.

On the "don't overlap" issue, Wyatt and Rufus could have literally taken Kennedy back to 1934 with minutes of his previous departure.  Even though Jack spent the better part of a day in 2018.  As long as Flynn has time to take out the remaining Rittenhouse plants, it all hangs together.

More advice Rufus could have given:  "Don't waste your time on the Bay of Pigs invasion; there's a reason Eisenhower decided against it.  The Cubans aren't going to rise up to get rid of Castro, they just rose up to put him in power.  A bunch of dissatisfied exiles in Miami aren't the whole island.  Also, you look like such a neophyte that it just emboldens Khrushchev, and next thing you know, there's a wall in Berlin…"

Edited April 17, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, reggiejax said:

The dead teacher who was about to shoot young JFK, on the other hand, no doubt made the history books.

But that assumes anyone knows the teacher was going to shoot young JFK. The most the history books would have known was that several people around the school died (or possibly went missing, depending on how well Flynn covered his tracks). They might not have connected them to JFK, and I doubt he told anyone about his adventures.

[KaveDweller]

10 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

Yeah, they were pulling a "Marty's siblings slowly disappearing" from Back to the Future.

Speaking of Back to the Future, I loved when Lucy told Jessica about Wyatt's Western Union telegram back in Vegas, and Jessica immediately responds, "like in Back to the Future"?

6 hours ago, SyracuseMug said:

Thank you for the correction.

My point was that if Kennedy was removed from the timeline in 1934, he could not have gone on to become president in 1960, and would not be on a coin. Yet the coin existed, and he was remembered as the president. How?

I haven't seen anyone else bring this up, which makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

The show has been kind of loose about when the past changes. One could argue that as soon as Rittenhouse goes back into the past history changes. Lucy shouldn't be able to figure out what they are trying to change because they should have already changed. But it doesn't seem to happen until they have been in the past long enough to make a difference. It's like time moves in parallel from both the time they left and the time they arrived.

Jiya and Rufus even commented on the fact that since they still remember JFK it must mean that they find him.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Read the book a few times, loved it. Grudgingly watched the series (not a Franco fan), and was ... okay. But the thing that sticks with me has to do with the show as a whole (not just JFK), and relevant to the current commentary:  "The past is obdurate. it doesn't want to change."

I've brought that up before. That seems to be the premise this show uses, except they never say so. They have already changed history in all sorts of ways yet whenever they return to the present, virtually nothing has changed but a few footnotes in history. It's as though the timeline manages to correct itself when someone tries to manipulate it. Honestly, I wish Rittenhouse would finally see that and give up.

Arguably, the two biggest changes they have affected are the elimination of Lucy's sister and the resurrection of Wyatt's wife. And yet, even then, their lives are almost exactly the same. They still find Jiya, Mason and Denise waiting for them in the exact same location upon their return, fully aware of where they went and why. It's a little too convenient, narratively. When are they going to come back one day and find - oops! No more Denise, someone else is suddenly in charge and, from their perspective, always has been. And is under the impression they were on a completely different kind of mission. Or, they return and Jiya is married to someone. Or, they return and - nobody is there, because they somehow prevented Mason from ever being born and inventing a time machine in the first place. 

Quote

But frickin' Nixon on the coin?

I honestly rewound that a couple of times and was unable to identify whose face was on the coin. I guess Nixon makes sense in that he was the other candidate in 1960 but it didn't look like him as far as I could tell. Didn't have the signature nose. Anyone got a screen grab?

[shapeshifter]

I haven't read about Kennedy's chronic digestive ailments, but since ulcers were not known to be caused by bacteria until a few decades ago, and since antibiotics weren't even available in the '30s, I would like to think that the trip to the 21st century hospital at least spared him many years of ulcers.

[augmentedfourth]

9 hours ago, SyracuseMug said:

Thank you for the correction.

My point was that if Kennedy was removed from the timeline in 1934, he could not have gone on to become president in 1960, and would not be on a coin. Yet the coin existed, and he was remembered as the president. How?

I haven't seen anyone else bring this up, which makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

I think Connor had a couple lines (practically throwaway blink-and-you'll-miss-it lines) about how since they all still remember JFK being president, it was already pretty much set in stone that they would succeed in finding him and returning him to 1934, so a stable time loop.

 

And this is one reason why most time-travel fiction makes me go cross-eyed at one point or another.

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Honestly, I wish Rittenhouse would finally see that and give up.

It is a fun show, but when I think about it too much, I can't help but wonder if Rittenhouse has this much money and resources there would have to be easier and cheaper ways for them to get more power etc. than trying to change the timeline.  There plan also seems vague, like they are going back in time and throwing things against the wall hoping one of their time changes will stick and somehow get them what they want.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I honestly rewound that a couple of times and was unable to identify whose face was on the coin. I guess Nixon makes sense in that he was the other candidate in 1960 but it didn't look like him as far as I could tell. Didn't have the signature nose. Anyone got a screen grab?

To me it was the spitting image of Nixon. No screen grab, though.

[North of Eden]

I just don't understand NBC. When they reversed the cancellation it was being touted as their "family friendly" offering and the creators were asked to make it more family-friendly and then it comes back to be buried at 10PM on a Sunday night when families are in bed?! If someone can explain that I would love to hear. Then going up against James Comey shoveled even more dirt on the coffin by losing viewers in what was one of the best episodes between the two seasons.

I loved how they shook up the formula by having the show set take place mainly in the present day and still make it interesting with all the dynamics in play and Kennedy on the loose. C'Mon JFK...I was waiting for you to kiss that beautiful Asian baby!

Yeah, the coin change was very confusing/misleading.

I know people hate Emma but I love her for being what she is supposed to be...a mustache-twirling villain. She gave me the laugh of hte night when she said "With pleasure" at the notion of killing Lucy and her friends...that's how card-carrying evil bad guys are supposed to be played!

Ha! Loved that Flynn is already swooping in to get him some Lucy loving!

The episode count is running out producers...you really need to address why the Golden Gate Bridge is a smoking ruin in Jiya's premonitions...we aren't just supposed to forget that are we?

The producers should start shopping the show around NOW so they aren't caught flat footed when NBC cancels it.

Edited April 18, 2018 by North of Eden

[Stuffy]

I think the NBC executive that was a fan is no longer there, so they don’t have that backup anymore. One of the Timeless producers said they wouldn’t be saved a second time because their support at the network is gone. I think the gone person  was the one talking about getting it a family friendly time spot and maybe being on in the summer. 

The new person clearly just stuck it somewhere. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Stuffy

[possibilities]

On 4/16/2018 at 2:11 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm still banging my head against the wall because Rittenhouse's plans make no sense whatsoever. Let's say they accomplish their goal and kill a young Kennedy. They have no idea how history will change

True. But they are villains and I chalk it up to them being crazy. Maniacal nonsensical power-obsessed evil doesn't always mean a sensible plan.

 

On 4/16/2018 at 2:11 PM, iMonrey said:

Keynes could suddenly find himself in a completely Rittenhouse-free world with no support and out on his ass.

I'd like that. Put him in the bunker in the cell where they used to keep Flynn.

[bros402]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah . . . I'm all for strong female characters but the whole point to Wyatt being on this team is that he's supposed to be the group's strongman. He's the muscle, Lucy is the brains, and Rufus is driving the getaway car. Matt Lanter is male model pretty but has never been believable as "muscle."

What's frustrating is that the show had a great opportunity here to show us what would happen if the timeline changed while you were in it. So far, we've had Team Time come back from trips to have people make off-hand remarks about Abe Lincoln's assassin being some rando or always thinking JFK was killed in Austin instead of Dallas. There's never any consequence to anything aside from the minutia. The show just isn't brave enough to really change the world in any significant way. The coin change was a compelling visual but didn't make any sense because they hadn't succeeded in changing anything at that moment. 

Just think how mind-blowing it would have been if Emma had shot JFK, and suddenly the entire scene changed and everyone was thrust into an alternate reality without even realizing it. They would just go about their business like nothing was changed because to them it would seem normal. It's too bad this show isn't ambitious enough to tackle something that profound.

Then Flynn would have to convince them to save "a random kid"

[Cranberry]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I honestly rewound that a couple of times and was unable to identify whose face was on the coin. I guess Nixon makes sense in that he was the other candidate in 1960 but it didn't look like him as far as I could tell. Didn't have the signature nose. Anyone got a screen grab?

Here you go:

I really liked this one. I like that they're finally asking questions about what sort of timeline they're in (although it seems like a weird mixture of elastic and overwriting, so I'm not sure what's going on). I like that Jessica is actually street-smart and capable and that she and Lucy both want to do what they believe is right. I liked seeing someone from the past loose in our time and that Lucy's historical knowledge was still necessary to track him down. I like that Flynn is working his way onto the team. I like seeing different pairs or groups of characters interacting with each other. This season just feels less formulaic and more exciting than last season -- it's like the stakes are higher now that neither side is overly concerned with keeping history exactly as they remember it.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Cranberry said:

 

 

Gah!!!

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, North of Eden said:

I know people hate Emma but I love her for being what she is supposed to be...a mustache-twirling villain. She gave me the laugh of hte night when she said "With pleasure" at the notion of killing Lucy and her friends...that's how card-carrying evil bad guys are supposed to be played!

Me personally, I never was much of a fan of mustache twirling villains. They always feel like lazy writing to me, like "why bother to give them motives or backgrounds?"

For me, the best villains are those who have a bit more depth, and you can understand why they're that way, while still hating them and what they do. For a bit, Flynn was that kind of villain.

But as with everything, mileage varies.

[iMonrey]

Thanks for the screen grab Cranberry. Yeah, I can see it now, although I'm not 100% sure everyone would know who that was supposed to be with just a glimpse of it. I also still think it would have made more sense to have the coin start blurring out and half-disappearing, like Marty's siblings in his photo, indicating the potential for JFK dying was imminent but not yet set in stone. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 4/15/2018 at 11:17 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

It's just a show, but a chill went down my spine when that coin changed from Kennedy to Nixon.

NonononoNO!!!!! Why NIXON? It would have been so much better if it was Ben Franklin or someone else like Hubert Humphrey or Wendell Willkie or even Adolph Hitler. Franklin was on the half in 1963 and a who the hell is THAT? moment would have worked soooo much better....

I guess the lifeboat coming back to an empty room might be the season ending cliffhanger.....

[TexasGal]

21 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm just glad that Kayla didn't get around to telling JFK about John-John and baby Patrick.  All the other bad news, he didn't need to know about his kids dying, too.

 

 

So at the point that she basically told him all about what happens to his family, did she still think he was crazy or had she already started to believe him?  She started the conversation showing him the picture that looked exactly like him, so I wasn't sure.  Because if she believed him, why would she tell him so much about his life.  If she didn't believe him, why was she telling him stuff he would already know as some kind of JFK obsessed teenager.

I would have loved it if when they returned from taking him back he had never been elected president at all because he did something that prevented Joe Jr from dying.

Edited April 18, 2018 by TexasGal

[Emma9]

On 4/16/2018 at 1:59 AM, possibilities said:

I really liked that Jessica and Lucy worked well together and respected each other and didn't resort to any pettiness or other shitty behavior. It makes both of them look good.

Same, so much. When Lucy insisted on going along with Wyatt as soon as he agreed to let Jessica come, I was preemptively cringing; recent events in other shows have strained my already-thin patience for triangle bullshit. Similarly, with the lingering shot of the 'empty' hallway after their exchange at the end, I assumed they'd reveal Jessica had been eavesdropping and now had further insecurities about their relationship as a result. Lurking Flynn instead was a relief, particularly as he didn't get much else to do onscreen in this one.

I've never seen particular chemistry with him and Lucy, but I've liked Abigail Spencer in several roles over the years, and imo Goran Visnjic can have chemistry with a lamppost, so if she's going to be in a relationship, I'll enjoy it much more if it's with him than with wet-blanket Wyatt.

(Also, the 'what if Flynn's wife comes back to life next' hypothetical has already been addressed, sort of; he's stated that he wouldn't want to be back in her or his daughter's lives given the kind of person he's now become. Granted, that raises the question of why he'd want to expose Lucy to that person if he comes to care for her.)

~

When (Mason, I believe) was commenting that for all they know, history changed already and their memories just changed right along with it, it spawned a fun what-if for me. What if JFK was never supposed to be president in the 'real' timeline, but his jaunt into 2018 and knowledge of future events gave him enough of a leg-up that he was able to attain power when he returned? Someone upthread mentioned that a big advantage for him was being chill during a televised debate. Easy feat for someone who's already been exposed to the future!

I enjoy a lot about this show, but the 'self-correcting timeline' theme makes me want to beat my head against a wall every time; I frankly hate that style of time-travel story in general. It's magical thinking in a setting that (other than the existence of a time machine) should feel realistic. Who's the Time God in charge of arbitrating what the 'right' past is? Who doles out the 'grace period' so they have a chance to return the kid they yoinked out of his own time before history changes to reflect his absence? Why did the home team's memory of all the other changes they made alter immediately, when theoretically the away team could have gone back again afterwards and nullified many of those changes?

I'm more of a butterfly-effect opinion. If you take someone out from far back enough in history as they have (or add someone to history), you don't just affect their direct descendants; you affect every other person all of those people would have interacted with for the rest of their lives, and in at least some cases, change those people enough that their interactions with still more people are different, and on and on exponentially.

Every single individual person in the world is nothing but a conglomeration of their memories; memories of people they've known, events they've experienced or heard/read about, books they've read and movies they've watched, etc etc etc. You can't just change piece after piece of that and expect the rest to stay the same.

More than a decade ago, I happened to spot a flyer posted in a lobby. That split-second glance triggered a cascade of events, relationships, and personal decisions that had a bigger effect on my life going forward than probably anything else. I'm sure everyone can name a similarly random occurrence that changed them fundamentally, a change meeting or offhand remark that had a disproportionate effect, or if not, can at least hypothesize that something of the kind could have happened, and there's no way to tell how narrowly they avoided it.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Emma9

[KaveDweller]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Arguably, the two biggest changes they have affected are the elimination of Lucy's sister and the resurrection of Wyatt's wife. And yet, even then, their lives are almost exactly the same. They still find Jiya, Mason and Denise waiting for them in the exact same location upon their return, fully aware of where they went and why. It's a little too convenient, narratively. When are they going to come back one day and find - oops! No more Denise, someone else is suddenly in charge and, from their perspective, always has been. And is under the impression they were on a completely different kind of mission. Or, they return and Jiya is married to someone. Or, they return and - nobody is there, because they somehow prevented Mason from ever being born and inventing a time machine in the first place. 

That's when you get into the whole time travel paradox. If they change something that stops Mason from being born, the time machine should disappear

I think if time travel was really possible, a simple change would have a huge impact, and I would love if they explored that. But they can't really change the cast and they want to have some continuing storylines, like Rufus and Jiya being a couple. It would be funny if they did little things like the walls in the bunker are a different color.

6 hours ago, TexasGal said:

So at the point that she basically told him all about what happens to his family, did she still think he was crazy or had she already started to believe him?  She started the conversation showing him the picture that looked exactly like him, so I wasn't sure.  Because if she believed him, why would she tell him so much about his life.  If she didn't believe him, why was she telling him stuff he would already know as some kind of JFK obsessed teenager.

I would have loved it if when they returned from taking him back he had never been elected president at all because he did something that prevented Joe Jr from dying.

I think she suspected he wasn't really crazy and so she showed him the picture and Wikipedia to see how he responded. His reaction seemed to really convince her.

If he had saved Joe Jr, wouldn't he have been the one the family ended up pushing to be president?

19 hours ago, Stuffy said:

I think the NBC executive that was a fan is no longer there, so they don’t have that backup anymore. One of the Timeless producers said they wouldn’t be saved a second time because their support at the network is gone. I think the gone person  was the one talking about getting it a family friendly time spot and maybe being on in the summer. 

The new person clearly just stuck it somewhere. 

That sucks, I really want more episodes of this show. The executive no longer being at NBC makes me think of the episode of Seinfeld where the person who offered him a pilot left the network. The replacement just cancelled it without even checking the ratings. I guess stuff like that does happen.

[Dowel Jones]

31 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

If he had saved Joe Jr, wouldn't he have been the one the family ended up pushing to be president?

Or, he could have continued on in aviation, broken the speed of sound one day out in California (eat it, Chuck Yeager), and gone onto the astronaut program, where he died in a tragic accident in 1959.   John became President a year later just on the sympathy vote.

[Clarkmh]

Hi - Where can the show’s version of Wikipedia be found?  Link, please!

[TexasGal]

3 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

If he had saved Joe Jr, wouldn't he have been the one the family ended up pushing to be president?

 

Yes.  So it would have either been a different Kennedy as president or perhaps he wouldn’t have gotten the nomination.  Maybe JFK would still have been elected but in a different election cycle?  How would all of that have impacted Bobby’s eventual involvement in the civil rights movement and his tragedy in 68?  (I’m a little Kennedy obsessed!)

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Emma9 said:

I enjoy a lot about this show, but the 'self-correcting timeline' theme makes me want to beat my head against a wall every time; I frankly hate that style of time-travel story in general. It's magical thinking in a setting that (other than the existence of a time machine) should feel realistic. Who's the Time God in charge of arbitrating what the 'right' past is? Who doles out the 'grace period' so they have a chance to return the kid they yoinked out of his own time before history changes to reflect his absence? Why did the home team's memory of all the other changes they made alter immediately, when theoretically the away team could have gone back again afterwards and nullified many of those changes?

I'm more of a butterfly-effect opinion. If you take someone out from far back enough in history as they have (or add someone to history), you don't just affect their direct descendants; you affect every other person all of those people would have interacted with for the rest of their lives, and in at least some cases, change those people enough that their interactions with still more people are different, and on and on exponentially.

Every single individual person in the world is nothing but a conglomeration of their memories; memories of people they've known, events they've experienced or heard/read about, books they've read and movies they've watched, etc etc etc. You can't just change piece after piece of that and expect the rest to stay the same.

More than a decade ago, I happened to spot a flyer posted in a lobby. That split-second glance triggered a cascade of events, relationships, and personal decisions that had a bigger effect on my life going forward than probably anything else. I'm sure everyone can name a similarly random occurrence that changed them fundamentally, a change meeting or offhand remark that had a disproportionate effect, or if not, can at least hypothesize that something of the kind could have happened, and there's no way to tell how narrowly they avoided it

I agree that if time travel was real that the butterfly effect would be more likely than the immutability of fate. Probably the butterfly effect would be 99.999% more likely than immutable fate. But since time travel—regardless of my decades long unflagging desire to see it happen—is impossible, it makes some sort of sense for time travel stories to be about a battle between unseen forces of change versus destiny, in part because the battle serves to represent the physics that prevents time travel, but also because the push and pull is like many of our feelings of fear and hope regarding the future, as well as regret vs. acceptance of the past.

 

 

ETA: I would have preferred the coin changed to Bobby Kennedy's profile, and in a book that would have worked, but in visual media, I guess Nixon made more sense—I just hated it.

Edited April 19, 2018 by shapeshifter

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

NonononoNO!!!!! Why NIXON? It would have been so much better if it was Ben Franklin or someone else like Hubert Humphrey or Wendell Willkie or even Adolph Hitler. Franklin was on the half in 1963 and a who the hell is THAT? moment would have worked soooo much better.... .

Because Nixon was the Republican candidate for the Presidency in 1960 after having served for eight years under Eisenhower as the Vice President. The presumption is that if Kennedy hadn't been around to challenge Nixon's run in 1960, Nixon would have won the election that year instead of in 1968. That's why the image on the coin changed to Nixon -- it was only logical given that presumption.  Having it change to Franklin, Humphrey, Willkie, or Hitler wouldn't have been believable and most definitely wouldn't have made any sense.

[bros402]

8 hours ago, Emma9 said:

When (Mason, I believe) was commenting that for all they know, history changed already and their memories just changed right along with it, it spawned a fun what-if for me. What if JFK was never supposed to be president in the 'real' timeline, but his jaunt into 2018 and knowledge of future events gave him enough of a leg-up that he was able to attain power when he returned? Someone upthread mentioned that a big advantage for him was being chill during a televised debate. Easy feat for someone who's already been exposed to the future!

I enjoy a lot about this show, but the 'self-correcting timeline' theme makes me want to beat my head against a wall every time; I frankly hate that style of time-travel story in general. It's magical thinking in a setting that (other than the existence of a time machine) should feel realistic. Who's the Time God in charge of arbitrating what the 'right' past is? Who doles out the 'grace period' so they have a chance to return the kid they yoinked out of his own time before history changes to reflect his absence? Why did the home team's memory of all the other changes they made alter immediately, when theoretically the away team could have gone back again afterwards and nullified many of those changes?

I prefer when things like this have it where if something big changes, stuff gets royally screwed.

I think in this case, history was slower to change because Flynn was in the past, killing Rittenhouse agents. So maybe every time a potential assassin was wiped out, that "saved" our history a bit more. Or maybe having the coin change was the closest they could do to a back to the future fading away with the short screen time the coin had. Might've worked better with the wikipedia article on the iPad - maybe have it change his death date from 1963 to "last seen mm-dd-1934" while still having a photo of adult JFK or something, to show it was in flux.