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S04.E17: A Dark Knight: Mandatory Brunch Meeting

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Gordon and Bullock try to stay one step ahead as Jerome zeros in on his next target. Meanwhile, Nygma hosts a riddle game show in the Narrows and faces his toughest challenger in Lee Thompkins, and Penguin goes to see Butch with a proposal.

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Well after all the hoopla of giving Barbara a big power boost.....nothing.  Gotham does not know what to do with Erin Richards and it is bordering on criminal.

Speaking of.....I am digging the pairing of Lee and Riddler they are all kinds of dark and sexy and I respect that.  You are playing a dangerous game Lee and I couldn’t be happier.

is Jerome gonna turn out to be the good twin?  

Edited by Chaos Theory · Reason: Auto correct is fun
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Are they really getting around their saying Jerome's not the Joker by saying it's really his twin brother? Really show. That's not a cool twist, soap operas have been using that storyline for years. 

Wasn't really expecting Lee and The Riddler but I like it. Once again another person that has more chemistry with one of Jim's love interests. 

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Got interrupted by a phone call and a few other things, so i feel like a missed a lot of details so this episode has me feeling a little lost. Gonna have to give this episode a rewatch tomorrow so i can fully focus on everything that happened :P

But from what i did see:

  • I was actually enjoying the riddler/lee plotline more than the jerome one. 
  • Lee's new look and hair-do is fabulous. She looks great
  • Happy that butch originally refused ozzy's offer and reaffirmed that they were not friends. When ozzy started bringing up their 'friendship' I boo'd at the screen. Does he not recall how once ed had entered the picture, he basically threw butch aside in terms of any nice friendship/co-worker dynamics? It was ed this ed that. 
  • Anyone else feel like butch has turned into a rather tragic character? His scenes this half of the season have left my heart aching :'(.
  • I have to say it, but this is my least favorite jerome mini-arc we've gotten. As much as he and the other villains are talking about bringing chaos to gotham, this whole storyline is beginning to lack the fun chaotic energy that was found in the other two mini-arcs.
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letter-d.jpg

"D" for "dull".

Well, learning that Jerome has a twin was fun. I'm a twin, so that's kind of neat.

It may also be pretty interesting if Gotham's angle is that The Joker is really a set of twins- one who's the smart one and the other who is the crazy one. Would help explain how The Joker can be both crazy and in control- but, then again, Oswald is that without needing a twin...or maybe he has one too...

(This is quickly getting too much for my tired mind to handle...I need to stop before I misname another cast member...)

Eddie and Lee kissed at the end and it was cute, and Lee outsmarting Ed was written well...but the storyline itself was dull. I'll say that Morena Baccharin plays criminal badass pretty well...this form of Lee is really working for me. I understand comics Lee was on the good side...but this Lee works better as a baddie. I hope Ed/Lee will be fruitful.

Then there's Ecco...I groaned at how easy she took down Jerome, but Jim got some good licks on her and the fight actually had some intensity to it.

Oh, and...Grundy and Joker...that could be interesting.

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Harvey was in most of the episode...and got himself smacked around by Ecco, which I'm okay with considering Harvey was never much of a brawler or a shooter. Jim getting the best of her fits with both of their characters. Other than a few zingers ("Where's the house?", "Gotham was always crazy") and some keen observations (missed those), Harvey Bullock was kind of just "there" doing whatever Jim needed and that was it.

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"The Riddle Factory" was a "prestige novel" that came out around the time that the Kilmer /Carrey / Jones film was in theaters.

Riddler had almost the same basic idea in the comic.  He got some desperate people to guess his riddles for cash and other prizes.

If they failed, well, he had a rabid racoon instead of a group of rats, among other more silly punishments.

Here's a russian guy with the whole story (apparently, they don't just leak state secrets only).

Edited by Twilight Man

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There is something so Gotham about a table of costumed wackadoodles all sitting around eating brunch that is so totally Gotham. Also, just say Legion of Doom, show. You know you want to. Hell, Legends of Tomorrow recreated the actual cartoon hideout last season! 

"Hell no, you wont hypnotize me again!" Then Harvey runs at Scarecrow and Teach and they both run like hell. Never face a pissed off Harvey who probably hasn't had a drink in a whole day! I am super glad the two of them are back together again. 

So Jerome has a "good" twin? Or is the twin secretly even crazier, or will become crazier? Jerome's family hasn't really come across as too normal in general, so who knows? Jerome also quoted one of the most famous Joker lines. "All it takes is one bad day". CM is clearly having such a freaking blast, its pretty great. 

I can get into Lee and Riddler/Ed. They have mad chemistry. No pun intended. 

I am right there with you on Gotham Harvey. Gotham is always crazy, and most everyone in it is at least a bit nuts. They probably will hardly even notice the crazy gas until someone starts bleeding from the eyes. Even in Gotham, thats probably a little odd. 

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Once again, I'm amazed nobody on the show has a breaking point in terms of shocking twists. Seriously, I expected this from Bullock: "Twins? TWINS?!? Nah, I'm out. I'm so out. I'm going to the CW, where they don't bludgeon characters with the developments. Fuck it, put me in Riverdale. I don't care."

Of course Jerome has a twin. Of course Jeremiah has Jerome abducted and caged in his 100-acre maze. And, of course, we'd have Leslie and Ed getting warm for each other, but only after he tried to humiliate her through riddles. Lee not only wins her round, she traps Riddler with his inability to say "I love you." She knows how to play tough. I don't know why she wants to run the Narrows, given how they were packed at the Riddle Factory.

And Jerome gathers his Legion of Horrors, including Oswald dressed more over-the-top than usual. Also Firefly, for some reason. Crane and Tetch take to the background for the most part . . . their highlight was Tetch trying to put the whammy on Jim and Harvey, and Harvey responding by yelling really loud and chasing him. Whatever works. Oh, and Crane gives us Joker Gas. Or is it Joker Venom? Basically, you get a whiff of that, you die laughing. Classic canon.

Oh, and a hypnotized schmuck blows himself up before the title. Gotham, ladies and gentlemen! Legends of Tomorrow wraps up net week, so Gotham will be our main source of batshit insanity. Well, I didn't see the second season premiere of Legion yet.

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So, Jerome has an identical twin.  Yep, Jeremiah is totally going to end up being the real Joker instead.  Either he's going to get infected by that Smylex gas or Jerome is going to get killed, and that's going to cause Jeremiah to snap.  Or maybe it will be both.  Good old Gotham!  Cameron Monaghan had fun playing both versions.

Loved the new unholy alliance between Team Jerome and Team Oswald, even if the latter is just waiting for the former to burn out, and then he'll take over.  But a group consisting of those two, Tetch, Crane, Freeze, Firefly, and now Butch?  Gotham isn't going to know what hit it!t

Lee/The Ridder wasn't something I was expecting, but it could work.  P

Bullock just charging Tetch and Crane, and causing them to flee in terror was the best.

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Jeremiah is either going to get blasted with the gas or he will simply prove himself to be even more messed up than his brother. He did turn his whole family against Jerome rather than help him, after all. And how does the child of traveling carnies learn he’s great at the STEM subjects? Are circus folk really good at making sure their kids get geometry?

Figures Oswald would largely be biding his time until he gets an opportunity to take over. But he looked vaguely nauseated every time he had to share a room with Jerome, and looked less than pleased about the gas, so I’m guessing he will move to actively trying to undermine him. No point in ruling a city if everyone is crazy and/or dead.

Poor Butch really is this most tragic character on the show. I hope Oswald actually follows through this time and finds Strange.

I still wish Lee wouldn’t be another dark, criminal lady on this show, but I should stop since the horse has clearly left the barn on that. Don’t know how I feel about Ed/Lee. On the one hand, I’m thinking, “Girl, you can and SHOULD do better.” On the other, she seemed to largely be using Ed’s feelings for her to get him to help her. She was all, “You’re totally in love with me, and have been all along. Sooooo, you wanna rob some banks for me, don’t ya?” Who knows how sincere she is or if she isn’t sincere now if she will be sincere later (to which I still say, “Girl...”).

Edited by Kostgard
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Is Lee a criminal? Serious question, because maybe I missed it. It seems that she really cares about the people in The Narrows. I guess that brutal fight ring thing can be held against her, but she did not force those people in the ring.

I am interested in Jeremiah and definitely thinks he is more f'd up than Jerome.

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20 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Is Lee a criminal? Serious question, because maybe I missed it. It seems that she really cares about the people in The Narrows. I guess that brutal fight ring thing can be held against her, but she did not force those people in the ring.

I am interested in Jeremiah and definitely thinks he is more f'd up than Jerome.

 

She may be doing it to help people, but she certainly is creeping in that direction. I mean, she ended this episode asking Ed to rob banks for her. Even if it is a Robin Hood situation, it’s still a crime. 

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Jerome has a twin and that twin is probably going to be the Joker then. Good job with Cameron Monaghan separating between Jerome and Jeremiah in their scenes together.

The businessman at the end getting the laughing gas, sinister way to end the episode. 

I did like the Legion of Horribles though but surely they would've added a few more players into the mix as well.

Not sure where this storyline with Leslie and Riddler is going but it's intriguing though, 8/10

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Poor Butch really has had a pretty tragic story hasn’t he?  He started out as a pretty loyal gangster.  He wouldn’t turn on Fish and because of it he got his brain scrambled.  He was forced to work with a Penguin and just when he found some sort of happiness with Tabitha he gets shot in the head and then turned into a monster (yes in that order).   

Through all that he still remains one of the most relatable characters on the show.  Not bad for a dude who started the show as a gangster.   

Thats so Gotham.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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19 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Are they really getting around their saying Jerome's not the Joker by saying it's really his twin brother? Really show. That's not a cool twist, soap operas have been using that storyline for years. 

Wasn't really expecting Lee and The Riddler but I like it. Once again another person that has more chemistry with one of Jim's love interests. 

At his core Jim is boring, and he's supposed to be.  He is Gotham's straight man, same as Batman.  They are Abbott to the rest of Gotham's Costello.

Edited by Dobian
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12 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I've hated Jerome since he started on the show, so him having a twin is not great fun for me.

I have hated him as well.   Not much of a Tetch fan either.

In this episode, I liked Harvey and Jim.  I also liked Penguin and Butch.  The best part of the episode was Lee and Ed.  Still, there wasn't enough Alfred and Bruce.

Beyond that, the episode was pretty meh.  I don't have much use for the rest of the villains that were on the episode tonight.  They could have easily been replaced with Barbara, Tabitha, and Selina. 

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I don't know how to write this review but I'll say one thing, I LOVED Ed and Lee's story tonight. It's like... yeah. They sold me on that relationship, as insane as it sounds.

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A very blah episode. I hate everything this show has done with "The Joker." He is not a character that should have an origin story. Cameron is a good actor and he clearly loves the role. But I'm just not mesmerized by him or like anything Gotham is doing regarding this Joker situation.

Still hate Butch and can't stand how Gotham tries writing him as this character where supposed to root for and love. So sick of hearing about his love for "Tabby." The fact that Gotham won't comit to him being Solomon Grundy and now he's just Butch who looks like Grundy makes me hate the character even more.

Only good part of the episode is the twisted story with Riddler & Lee.

Edited by Proteus
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I loved Harvey chasing Tetch and Scarecrow. That was lol funny. What's this about the show saying that Jerome isn't The Joker? I think at this point that would just be beyond silly.

Lord help me but I find Lee and Riddler so sexy. I loved how she played Ed in that game show. They along with Oswald are my favorite part of the show. I want them all teamed up together. I hope Oswald does find Strange. I miss that crazy fucker.

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Ed and Lee, I ship it.  Their chemistry was outstanding.  The set-up with the Riddler Game Show was delightful.  I hope Lee's not just playing him, but suspect that she is.  In either case, Riddler told the truth - she is playing a dangerous game.  Ed loved Kristen Kringle too, and that didn't turn out so well for her.  Oswald isn't going to be too happy about it either when he finds out, and that didn't turn out so well for Isabella.

I liked the Jeremiah/Jerome twist.  I didn't see it coming that Jeremiah as a child was (probably) crazier than Jerome, and that he made up the whole story about Jerome's attempts to kill him in order make their mom hate Jerome.  Even if Jerome wasn't originally crazy, and this is what drove him mad, they are both cray-cray now.  It will be a toss-up as to which of the two is the crazier adult.

Not too much Tetch in this episode, so that was a plus for me. 

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59 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

Not too much Tetch in this episode, so that was a plus for me. 

Yes, I was just thinking it was the perfect amount of Tetch. Especially since he and Scarecrow gave us one of the best moments running away from Harvey, and the way Jerome just watched them run by all, "Okay-dokey." (Seriously - stuff like that is why I can never truly hate this show even when the nonsensical plots get frustrating). 

Second "I just can't hate this show" moment was Jerome doing yoga in his little prison box.

Edited by Kostgard
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Oswald may be ruled by his heart,  but at least he knows it. Ed, OTOH, is ruled by other parts, and he doesn't have a clue. He lost his sanity over Kristin, got into a war with Oswald over Isabella and ended up frozen in a block of ice; I wonder what Lee's gonna do to him? At least she won't be an innocent victim in all of it, so that's a nice change.

I'm not feeling Jeremiah so much yet. If he's the actual Joker, then they're going to have to find an interesting way to crazy him up, and demonstrate how that crazy is superior to Jerome. Not an easy task even though both characters are played by Cameron Monaghan. Jerome is the perfect Joker for this show. I'm not convinced he can be improved on.

I remember on Hercules DECADES ago, Herc's sidekick Iolaus was killed off and replaced by another version of Iolaus from a different universe. Both characters were played by the same actor, but the fans still rejected alt-Iolaus and wanted the original back. So, it's not a given that bringing in an evil(er) twin also played by Cameron is going to work. Still, I love Gotham so much that I'm willing to give it a chance.

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2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Oswald may be ruled by his heart,  but at least he knows it. Ed, OTOH, is ruled by other parts, and he doesn't have a clue. He lost his sanity over Kristin, got into a war with Oswald over Isabella and ended up frozen in a block of ice; I wonder what Lee's gonna do to him? At least she won't be an innocent victim in all of it, so that's a nice change.

I'm not feeling Jeremiah so much yet. If he's the actual Joker, then they're going to have to find an interesting way to crazy him up, and demonstrate how that crazy is superior to Jerome. Not an easy task even though both characters are played by Cameron Monaghan. Jerome is the perfect Joker for this show. I'm not convinced he can be improved on.

I remember on Hercules DECADES ago, Herc's sidekick Iolaus was killed off and replaced by another version of Iolaus from a different universe. Both characters were played by the same actor, but the fans still rejected alt-Iolaus and wanted the original back. So, it's not a given that bringing in an evil(er) twin also played by Cameron is going to work. Still, I love Gotham so much that I'm willing to give it a chance.

Back again, because this really touches on and expands upon some worries I have.

I already mentioned that I’m not down with criminal Lee (and the part her snuggling up to Ed and asking him to rob banks plays into that), but yeah - thus far it feels it just like a manipulation on Lee’s part to get him back in her corner since he apparently was all, “Smell ya, later” after he Riddled out. And I agree that it feels like more of Ed uncertain of his identity, and defining himself through others or letting others define them. Lee was probably right that Ed set up shop in the Narrows to get her attention, because Ed and Riddler was the same person. And while she will probably develop feelings for him along the way because TV, right now she’s pulling out the side of him she prefers so he will help. But again, Ed/Riddler same person. Just how cool will Lee be with the Riddler side that is absolutely not going away?

I’m also kinda over the whole Narrows thing because it largely feels like wheel-spinning. Here at episode 17 the Narrows is in nearly the exact same place it was at in the beginning of the season, except people are watching others get mutilated in the Riddle Factory rather than Cherry’s fight club. I mean, there was a setback when Samson/Sofia took over the Narrows, but that was very brief and Lee has been back in charge for at least as long as Sofia was in charge. Meh - we’ll see how this plays out. Maybe it will end up better than I think. Right now I have too many questions.

My Oswald-related disappointment here is after he and Ed bury the hatchet, establish that they trust each and will go above and beyond to help each other, they apparently decided to act like they’ve never even heard of each other. It would be one thing if Ed ditched helping Oswald to help Lee instead (that would make sense), but before Lee popped up Ed apparently just went off to do his little game show while Oswald is scrounging around for allies. 

And I do have concerns about whether or not Jeremiah can match or exceed Jerome if he is indeed the Joker. I’m not the Jerome super fan some others are, but he is pretty darn entertaining and I really enjoyed him this episode. Again, like with the other plot lines my fears may be unwarranted, but I’m a bit nervous about it.

But if Jeremiah is the Joker, should Bruce be worried that he designed at least one of his buildings? Who knows what sort of nonsense could be hidden in there.

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Well, learning that Jerome has a twin was fun. I'm a twin, so that's kind of neat.

Which one of you has the goatee? ;)

 

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 Seriously, I expected this from Bullock: "Twins? TWINS?!? Nah, I'm out. I'm so out. I'm going to the CW, where they don't bludgeon characters with the developments. Fuck it, put me in Riverdale. I don't care."

Too late: the Blossom Patriarch's Evil Twin Cornelius recently arrived! (Well, evil as in "evil-er.")

Anyway!

This one was pretty good! Not too overloaded and only a few real glitches, such as three people standing less than a yard away from an exploding person and not only not dying, but not even having any lingering tinnitus! Gotham is hardly the only show to do that, though; it's up there with the magma that isn't dangerous unless you actually touch it trope-wise. I also liked that after said boom, Bruce and Alfred tried to be Big Tough Guys, but later just handed over the notes about Xander's place of residence and faded for the rest of the ep. Bruce is learning when to jump in and when to stay out.

Jerome seems to be wearing out his welcome at Penguin's, along with the rest of the "haven't used them in a while so stick them in here" villains like Firefly and Freeze. I do wonder why the guys with the butterfly nets/elephant tranqs never show up at his house, though, he always goes back there, usually with a retinue of nutters. You'd think it'd be an easy roundup if you brought enough trucks and bazookas.

You could tell that Penguin's becoming The Old Hand amongst the bad guys. Like he said to Butch, this seems to involve a lot of paint, but I'll still be there after Jerome blows his wad and poofs out like so many others have, and hey, gimme a hand --sorry, too soon?--and we'll rule Gotham! Totally got your back, unlike all those other times! I'm wearing my Grandma's good jacket to prove it! (Seriously, why was he done up like a Goo Goo Doll?)

I don't know about the whole twin brother thing; it seems like a really roundabout way to get what they already have. Jerome is The Joker and Jeremiah will just be the same actor playing the same role. The whole "you actually kinda LIED and turned Mom against me" thing is mildly interesting, I guess, but all this just seems unnecessary. Although any plot that leads to Harvey bellowing like an enraged bear and chasing Tetch and Scarecrow isn't totally without merit!

And on to Ed and Lee! Honestly, they used that whole "love" angle a lot better than I thought they would. Lee's use of Ed/Riddler's weak spots: his vanity, his arrogance, his terror of not being the smartest in the room, and blending it with the knowledge that he loves her was really clever. Give him what he wants and simply cannot walk away: Ed has longed for love since Season One when he was futzing Chris's files and bringing her bullet doughnuts, so Lee's game isn't really dangerous at all. It's a helluva lot smarter than continually challenging him or trying to drive him away: she knows he's going to keep gravitating towards her and lashing out because of it, so why not hook him in instead? He may fume and rage and sputter, but the one thing he won't do is leave.

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2 hours ago, Snookums said:

And on to Ed and Lee! Honestly, they used that whole "love" angle a lot better than I thought they would. Lee's use of Ed/Riddler's weak spots: his vanity, his arrogance, his terror of not being the smartest in the room, and blending it with the knowledge that he loves her was really clever. Give him what he wants and simply cannot walk away: Ed has longed for love since Season One when he was futzing Chris's files and bringing her bullet doughnuts, so Lee's game isn't really dangerous at all. It's a helluva lot smarter than continually challenging him or trying to drive him away: she knows he's going to keep gravitating towards her and lashing out because of it, so why not hook him in instead? He may fume and rage and sputter, but the one thing he won't do is leave.

Well, he did kill Kristin, and then Oswald killed Isabella in a fit of jealousy, so I wouldn't say that what Lee's doing is completely without danger.

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5 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Well, he did kill Kristin, and then Oswald killed Isabella in a fit of jealousy, so I wouldn't say that what Lee's doing is completely without danger.

It's completely without danger since Lee is a canon character... ;)

Seriously though he killed Kristen because she told him she'd have him arrested, and I doubt Lee will. Ozzie's jealousy though, always a threat.

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It bugged me when Jim said to Bruce 'How can I trust anything you say - I told you not to come here and you did anyway'...but Bruce told Jim over the phone that he was going to the school so he didn't lie at all about that and yet Jim is acting like he did lie. I don't know why that bugged me so much.

I always love it when someone comes back from the shop and always has a paper bag with a baguette and lettuce. Is that the most popular meal ever?

"I don't what the plan is but it seems to involve a great deal of paint" - I love Penguin and his hair and his fabulous coat!

So Wayne Plaza was actually designed by the future Joker? That's interesting! Is that building secretly a labyrinth too?

I loved Harvey running screaming at Tetch saying he wasn't going to be hypnotized again. That certainly is one way to get around that! I also love that Harvey is getting a lot of screentime these days - maybe they're making up for his lack of screentime in the first half due to his real life commitments.

I don't really get why they gave Jerome a twin brother and made him actually the Joker. I just can't understand it. I mean I'm really happy that we still get Cameron Monaghan playing him but there's really no reason why Jerome couldn't have been the Joker. I feel like the writers said he wasn't the Joker years ago, had no real story planned and just decided to stick to their guns by making him not the Joker or they were just looking for a shock/twist. Although I guess I do like that Jeremiah is super smart because the Joker should be very smart and not just chaotically crazy. But I don't really get it - is Jeremiah going to copy Jerome in some way or was he always secretly the bad one? Or will he have one bad day?

And who is the Echo woman and why is she so dedicated to Jeremiah?

The whole Riddle Factory thing was just put into this episode randomly to give Riddler and Lee something to do for the B plot. I enjoyed it but it still had no connection to anything. Although even I got the riddle he gave to Lee and I'm not good at riddles at all. Also, it's quite a risky move on Lee's part to say 'Kill me if you don't love me' to Ed since he did actually kill his girlfriend one time. And now they're getting it on - I didn't actually think Lee would go for it - so that will be interesting!

And hey, what about Sofia? They said she was in a coma for no reason several episodes ago so I wonder if she's coming back before the end of the season but I don't think there's any time for that with everything else that's going on.

Edited by superloislane
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I know comic fans don't like the Joker having a backstory. for me having a backstory for the Joker adds more to his character. It's not like we saw him as baby growing up. When we met him he was already crazy. I liked seeing him become the Joker. What I don't like is the twin twist. That just seem like their way to get around the saying "Jerome is not the Joker" thing. Which they could've just said they lied. Writers do that all the time when they change their mind after they said something earlier. Going with Jeremiah being the Joker will just seeing the same character played by the same actor and just having a different first name that no one cares about anyway.  What's the point of that? And now all I'll see is Jeremiah copying his brother which makes it worse imo. Jerome embodies the Joker already I don't need to see it again with his twin. 

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I always love it when someone comes back from the shop and always has a paper bag with a baguette and lettuce. Is that the most popular meal ever?

Well, when Gothamites go out to dinner or to a fancy 'do, they only get as far as the bread and salad before a supervillain attacks, so they've basically tuned out all other food.

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And hey, what about Sofia? They said she was in a coma for no reason several episodes ago so I wonder if she's coming back before the end of the season but I don't think there's any time for that with everything else that's going on.

Eh, that's never stopped these writers before.

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11 hours ago, Snookums said:

Which one of you has the goatee? ;)

Me. :) He also goes to Church and I don't, so I fully admit I'm the evil twin.

Edited by Danielg342
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If Lee wanted to take back control over the Narrows, she had no choice but to pull out the Riddler's inner "Ed Nygma".  I just hope there isn't this ping ponging back and fourth between both sides of Ed.  I can just see it now, Penguin continues to draw out the Riddler, and Lee continues to draw out Ed.    If that continues, I don't think that will end at all well for Ed. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 7:48 PM, Lantern7 said:

Gotham will be our main source of batshit insanity.

YAY!!!

On 4/5/2018 at 10:47 PM, Kostgard said:

She may be doing it to help people, but she certainly is creeping in that direction. I mean, she ended this episode asking Ed to rob banks for her. Even if it is a Robin Hood situation, it’s still a crime. 

In Gotham, there is crime and then there is CRIME!!!! Robbing a bank where the hoi polloi keep their money is definitely one of the former. 

On 4/6/2018 at 2:23 PM, SnarkyTart said:

Oswald isn't going to be too happy about it either when he finds out, and that didn't turn out so well for Isabella.

I don't see that happening.  First because they've already gone down that path, second because Ed and Oswald's relationship has changed -- Ed knows that Oswald was once in love with him (although I don't think he still is) and Oswald knows that Ed (or the Riddler) will ever love him back, and third because I doubt they would kill Lee like that.

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23 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If Lee wanted to take back control over the Narrows, she had no choice but to pull out the Riddler's inner "Ed Nygma".  I just hope there isn't this ping ponging back and fourth between both sides of Ed.  I can just see it now, Penguin continues to draw out the Riddler, and Lee continues to draw out Ed.    If that continues, I don't think that will end at all well for Ed. 

It’s Gotham nothing ends well for anyone.  That’s kind of the fun.  Everyone is a hot mess.   

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Now that's a game show I could get behind - sure, you get the "pile of cash", but with death if you lose (OK, I'm sure S&P wouldn't let it get broadcast*, but it's like the ultimate quiz show). But if everyone enters freely, why does Lee have a problem with it? Given "living in Gotham" is a huge risk anyway, why not at least make money off it? Did like Lee winning the game by forcing The Riddler to say he loved her (or rather, not say it).

A bit sad that the supposed A plot of Joker "painting the town red" was kinda dull by comparison. So Jerome has a better/eviler/crazier twin brother? OK, but it's not like he wasn't crazy all ready, so giving him a backstory where his (evil?) genius brother might turn out to be the real Joker isn't that interesting. I wonder if this is a reference to the recent "Three Jokers" plotline in the comics (and we also got references to "The Killing Joke" when Jerome mentions going crazy due to "one bad day").

On ‎07‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 1:42 PM, superloislane said:

It bugged me when Jim said to Bruce 'How can I trust anything you say - I told you not to come here and you did anyway'...but Bruce told Jim over the phone that he was going to the school so he didn't lie at all about that and yet Jim is acting like he did lie.

Bugged me too! Jim, you're not a dictator, you're a cop - if Bruce chooses to conceal information and walk into a trap, that's his problem. Maybe you (or the teacher's family) could sue Bruce for putting him in lethal peril (good luck with that), but he didn't do anything illegal. Maybe you need to study the law a bit more next time you're in hospital for doing something stupid!

* Though these days, who knows?

Edited by John Potts
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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:04 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Well after all the hoopla of giving Barbara a big power boost.....nothing.  Gotham does not know what to do with Erin Richards and it is bordering on criminal.

Speaking of.....I am digging the pairing of Lee and Riddler they are all kinds of dark and sexy and I respect that.  You are playing a dangerous game Lee and I couldn’t be happier.

is Jerome gonna turn out to be the good twin?  

I really can't even imagine where they're going, is Lee trying to rescue the Ed within the Riddler? 

On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

Happy that butch originally refused ozzy's offer and reaffirmed that they were not friends. When ozzy started bringing up their 'friendship' I boo'd at the screen. Does he not recall how once ed had entered the picture, he basically threw butch aside in terms of any nice friendship/co-worker dynamics? It was ed this ed that. 

Not to mention CUTTING OFF HIS HAND!

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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:47 AM, Kostgard said:

 

She may be doing it to help people, but she certainly is creeping in that direction. I mean, she ended this episode asking Ed to rob banks for her. Even if it is a Robin Hood situation, it’s still a crime. 

TIG! You can't blame her for being cynical. 

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On ‎07‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 12:07 AM, Lokiberry said:

Oswald may be ruled by his heart,  but at least he knows it. Ed, OTOH, is ruled by other parts, and he doesn't have a clue. He lost his sanity over Kristin, got into a war with Oswald over Isabella and ended up frozen in a block of ice; I wonder what Lee's gonna do to him? At least she won't be an innocent victim in all of it, so that's a nice change.

I'm not feeling Jeremiah so much yet. If he's the actual Joker, then they're going to have to find an interesting way to crazy him up, and demonstrate how that crazy is superior to Jerome. Not an easy task even though both characters are played by Cameron Monaghan. Jerome is the perfect Joker for this show. I'm not convinced he can be improved on.

I remember on Hercules DECADES ago, Herc's sidekick Iolaus was killed off and replaced by another version of Iolaus from a different universe. Both characters were played by the same actor, but the fans still rejected alt-Iolaus and wanted the original back. So, it's not a given that bringing in an evil(er) twin also played by Cameron is going to work. Still, I love Gotham so much that I'm willing to give it a chance.

Ah but in fairness Jeremiah is unlikely to run off with a mermaid! Unless Hugo Strange comes up with one?

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1. Bruce calls Jim "Jim"? Is that the first time?

2. Firefly is back, yay!

3. And Alfred and Mr Freeze although with a very small role.

4. So what do we think of Lilah? Could we have the prototype Anna Gram? 

5. Speaking of which we also have Echo (Dollhouse?), who is one cute and sharp cookie. A possible future Harley Quinn?

6. Go Butch! Tell Oswald where to get off! 

7. Got to say I really like Lee's new look, sexy. 

8. And is it just me or did she actually seem a little excited when Ed put the knife to her throat?

9. Go Harvey! Love his charge against Tetch, your hypnotism is no match for a battle cry and lots of shooting. 

10. Nice little scene where Harvey and Jim go to Jim and Alfred for help, you expect Thomas Wayne's journals to feature again sometime. 

11. Smilex? 

12. So, Jermome or Jerimiah? Or will we perhaps never know?

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3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I vote for a new guy named Jedidiah. He can be the first Amish Joker.

I vote for him wearing greasepaint over the beard.

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On 02/08/2018 at 8:26 AM, Miss Dee said:

I vote for a new guy named Jedidiah. He can be the first Amish Joker.

I vote that his catchphrase is "raze this barn!"

Edited by Danielg342
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This episode had too much Joker randomly killing people (along with dumb jokes for the police officers like the dead guy isn't going to talk) and I'm not much of a fan.  I thought his twin was interesting, but if he's going to turn evil, then that's just predictable and not something I look forward to.

I was disappointed that Bruce and Alfred were dropped halfway through.  I was hoping they will tackle the situation from a different angle.  Bruce's decision at the diner led to architects and security guards being killed.  Is that going to be forgotten by the next episode?

The Riddler and Lee were alright, but I'm less interested in him now that the evil alter-ego is back.  

Edited by Camera One
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