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S03.E19: Orange Is the New Maze

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When Maze is the prime suspect in a murder, Lucifer and Chloe enter the world of bounty hunting to investigate; Charlotte makes a big discovery that calls her sanity into question; Chloe admits she's dating someone.

 

Airs on the 25th in Canada, apparently.

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Oh gawd, when the hell did this show become Peyton Place?

Although Maze was pretty cool in the bowling alley.

So what's Cain's play with Chloe?

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1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I love it when Luci unfurls.  (Yes, I'm shallow).

But nothing beats when Amenadiel unfurled in the car with Maze back in Season 1! Damn, that was hilarious.

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I'm glad Charlotte knows.. Now the show can do something with amenadiel and Charlotte... Let them pair up (not romantically)  just for plot stuff and to talk celestial... Maybe she can kinda be his mom/sister... 

As annoying as maze had been I really felt for  her at the end of the epi.. Once again coming in 2nd place to that blank staring wet blanket Chloe.. Who's infatuation with pierce and honestly disregard for her Ex Dan is blegh... Her speech to maze was super nice tho really sold it.   

Um pierce is still a dick and now is making a heel turn so cool... Of course Chloe won't see it and blame luci... 

So we finally get some movement and the show is on break again... Smh

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Y'all might have heard a scream coming from the East Coast when they said that the next new episode is in THREE weeks.

I liked the development of Charlotte finding out about Lucifer and Amenadiel.  No reason for Linda to bear that burden alone.

And yeah, I hate Pierce as well now.

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So, they spent the first 2 seasons building up the sexual tension between Lucifer & Chloe, & now she suddenly sticks him in the friend zone? And why do we have another gap in episodes? 

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So Charlotte is the first mortal on the show to see Lucifer's wings?

I pity anyone who had a guest over who's never seen the show before and had to explain the background and connections between the main characters! Talk about needing a score card.

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12 minutes ago, Bobbin said:

So Charlotte is the first mortal on the show to see Lucifer's wings?

Actually, no.  Linda's seen them.  So have one or two "one night stands" though they thought it was fake/cosplay/etc.  For my part I'm kind of glad of a back in three weeks because LoT will be over for the season and I can watch this show with no competition.  I haven't seen that last 5-7 episodes and as I understand it from comments here, that's a good thing.  Hopefully the show will be unshitified for its last 3 episodes of the season.

Edited by johntfs
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"You're the best babysitter I've ever had. Except for the rock star passed out in her bed...And the time you sent her to school with pot brownies." Heh.

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This was pretty good. I mean, I despised all the scenes with Pierce and Chloe, but the fact that he's definitely a bad egg makes thing more interesting. Also, it was weird that he didn't seem to see any problem with Maze's situation; I mean, she's a demon and sending her to trial and prison could have consequences for all the supernatural beings, himself included. But everything else was great. I LOVED that Charlotte knows the truth now. It opens up so many possibilities... Chloe talking to Maze was very sweet. And I really enjoyed all the scenes with Lucifer and Maze, sad as they were, because that's how they relationship used to be/should be: complicated and sometimes, unhealthy. The show has been playing with Lucifer's selfishness for laughs, but this time, it was for real, he couldn't even see he was being a total bastard to her. And the ending is promising. It seems Pierce wants Lucifer dead or back to Hell or something like that, which proves he is even worse than Lucifer. Man, poor Adan and Eve, they really had shitty sons. 

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6 hours ago, mertensia said:

"You're the best babysitter I've ever had. Except for the rock star passed out in her bed...And the time you sent her to school with pot brownies." Heh.

Kind of a dick thing to say to a roommate and friend.. But I guess it was coming from a good place

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Chloe is shit at saying anything meaningful, but I took it as: she thought a significant portion of Maze's upsetness and leaving was over what happened with Dan and Trixie overhearing. So if Chloe was thinking "ok yeah Maze said some things she didn't mean", which Chloe thinks Maze clearly couldn't mean because she's seen how affectionate Maze is with Trixie usually, Chloe was just continuing in that direction.She thought Maze was having a tough time about some unknown thing and then the outburst, which Trixie heard, was what made Maze move out. So her angle was to talk Maze down in a "no really, you're good with the kid, don't feel bad about that, I don't hold it against you" kind of way. It didn't really work in-show (and it didn't work for me, I thought that dialogue was clunky AF), but I think it wasn't supposed to. It was supposed to show Chloe being perceptive enough to want to try to help, but not perceptive enough to come even remotely close to saying the right thing. Or maybe I'm so tired I'm now giving writers credit for intentional Chloe charatcerization of things my impulse is to call bad writing. But it takes less energy for me to think "nope, this is just who Chloe is".

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9 hours ago, johntfs said:

Actually, no.  Linda's seen them.  So have one or two "one night stands" though they thought it was fake/cosplay/etc.  For my part I'm kind of glad of a back in three weeks because LoT will be over for the season and I can watch this show with no competition.  I haven't seen that last 5-7 episodes and as I understand it from comments here, that's a good thing.  Hopefully the show will be unshitified for its last 3 episodes of the season.

Linda never saw Luci's wings.  His wings were cut off his back and held in a cargo container while he and Linda were hitting the sheets in Season One.

It was Chloe who saw them at the auction house and said they were good cosplay.

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My problem is  that I don't believe Chloe.  I take a huge dose of irony with that because somehow I accept the other characters, maybe because they aren't like other people, I let them be all that different in my mind.

Chloe, otoh, is so darned clueless.  Her gushing with Pierce from the very beginning, her clueless jabbering with her boss....the guy who can fire her or demote her- there has to be space there, not a quick romantic relationship, her setting aside her child to lead the kind of life that un-parents do.  The child should be there, in each episode, even if only a phone call to ask how her day was at school.  Chloe then would come at Pierce and Lucy from a place that I could understand.  Instead she is coming across as shallow.   Of all of her actions, the only one I identified with was straightening out Lux's lease in a way that Lucifer wouldn't have thought to, but that someone who worked near city hall would come up with.  Something she'd do for a friend and that humanized her.

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The Maze's-bounties montage was a nice parallel to the Lucifer's-flings one, particularly how the gist of that was that he was awesome in bed but didn't make the slightest personal connection, while everyone remembers Maze as merciless and terrifying...but also someone who actually related to them as an individual. It's not really a stretch from a characterization standpoint; she wouldn't have been hell's best torturer if she didn't have the ability to understand people and what makes them tick.

That was about the only thing in the episode I enjoyed.

 

7 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

The show has been playing with Lucifer's selfishness for laughs, but this time, it was for real, he couldn't even see he was being a total bastard to her.

I'm so bored with Lucifer the character (and fast getting there with Lucifer the show). His selfishness worked initially because it felt like an actual arc, but there's just been no real progression, just occasional moments of him seeing someone else's perspective that are then never mentioned again. The 'Lucifer decides to act in X Quirky Manner for an episode because of his personal issues' gag has long gone stale, but we're still apparently supposed to care about his angst over Chloe and his father.

Maze has always been much more interesting to me. She was "forged" by Lucifer, created as a tool to do a job, and spent an unfathomable amount of time not realizing she could define herself as anything more than his right-hand man. Watching her grow from that to create a life and friendships and self-image on her own terms was unique and satisfying...which makes it all the more bullshit that that was derailed this season to serve an idiotic cliched love triangle plotline.

Even the 'Lucifer realizes he made a mistake in taking Maze's loyalty for granted' angle has been played out before, when he was lying to her to manipulate Mum, whereupon she physically smacked him down and Linda finished the job verbally. But all for naught, since he didn't learn anything from that either.

And now instead of Maze being able to focus on the people who proved they do have her back, we're going to get an arc of her and Pierce as the villains trying to take Lucifer down - in other words, still giving him more of her mental energy than he deserves.

Edited by Emma9
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The only two redeeming things in this episode were Charlotte's story arc and Maze being hella sexy (and her speech in the end). Everything else made me rolle my eyes. This love triangle gotta go straight to hell for all I care. Oh, and another break for this show? Oh, for the love of...

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3 hours ago, enoughcats said:

My problem is  that I don't believe Chloe.  I take a huge dose of irony with that because somehow I accept the other characters, maybe because they aren't like other people, I let them be all that different in my mind.

Sadly, I agree. Chloe is the biggest brown note in this ensemble for me. I don't feel any chemistry between her and Lucifer, and literally every other character's plotlines are more interesting to me. I mean, she's fine. She doesn't actively irritate me. But I don't feel anything for her and if the character moved to Idaho tomorrow I doubt I'd really notice. There's so much potential in the show's setup for all kinds of seriously complex and interesting development, but it just doesn't quite get there. Lucifer takes Maze for granted! Lucifer is a dick because he can't stand anybody else talking to Chloe! Lucifer thinks about telling Chloe the truth but then doesn't! Lucifer mopes in a dark room! How could they have let a terrific concept like "Satan in LA" go so weirdly stale?

I finally removed this show from my DVR, with great disappointment. I'll miss Linda, Amenadiel, Maze, and Trixie. Maybe Dan a little.

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4 hours ago, storyskip said:

Linda never saw Luci's wings.  His wings were cut off his back and held in a cargo container while he and Linda were hitting the sheets in Season One.

It was Chloe who saw them at the auction house and said they were good cosplay.

He had Linda round his penthouse when she got out of hospital (early season 3) and he got them out and asked her to cut them off for him coz Maze wasn't around and what with Linda being a doctor...  She told him again that she wasn't that kind of doctor!

(Still talking about wings..)

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So much to say about the episode:

Love the bit with Maze's ex-bounties and the bowling alley bit.  Hate that she hasn't made it up with Trixie.  Love the fight in the winery.  Quite like Charlotte finding out that she's not crazy.

Hate the Chloe/Pierce thing.  She's always been nervous around him (never nervous around Lucifer), you shouldn't date people who make you nervous - basic survival.  It's like the writers can't decide if he's good or bad - last week solving crimes backs in the fifties, this week threatening to do away with Lucifer.  How about alienating all of her friends and sending Trixie away to boarding-school?  First rule of abusive relationships - isolate the victim!  That should ring alarm bells for Dan, at least.  Lucifer should do to Pierce what was done to the puzzle box at the end of 'Hellraiser 3' - building site, wet concrete, large building on top - should hold him for a few decades..

Back to the writers... Pierce is The Sinnerman ("The Sinnerman killed my brother."), the other guy was working for Pierce and trying to set Lucifer up.  Pierce gave him the pen to blind himself while he was handcuffing him.  Pierce shot him as he was about to talk to Lucifer; what better cover for a crime boss than being in the police?  Then, suddenly, Pierce is all tragic and wanting to die, thinks Chloe can help with that.  Thinks he won't go to hell because he doesn't feel guilt - many killers don't feel guilt, there's probably a corner of Hell just for them - says it was either him or Abel, self defense; Abel being in Hell seems to back this up.  If true, why punish Cain?  (FYI Biblical Cain died when his house collapsed, braining him with a rock: karma.  It was the Wandering Jew who had to walk the Earth until the Second Coming)  If Pierce truly wants Chloe to kill him and she has feelings for him, she'll be gutted.  Pierce is a cruel user.  Lucifer is being stupid, won't do anything in case something bad happens to Chloe - open your eyes Luce, something bad is ALREADY happening to Chloe!

I'm really hoping that the weird stuff with Maze is a put up job so that Pierce thinks he can trust her, while really she's working for Lucifer.

Now we get to stew and speculate for weeks, waiting for the next episode.

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I liked this episode a lot. Loved the montage o’Maze’s Bounties, loved Charlotte learning the truth, and Maze broke my heart. She also has a point about always coming in second. I never like love triangles, though, so I’m anxious for the Pierce storyline to be resolved. I also hope that Charlotte knowing the truth means we’re finally going to get some meaningful Linda appearances.

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Honestly, when Maze was saying how she is only important to Lucifer when Chloe isnt around or if she isnt affected, I was just like "someone explain to me why Lucifer is so obsessed with this person? Besides some weird magic connection?" and I have no idea if that was the point. I have tried to like Chloe many times, and sometimes she can be fine (usually with her friends or with Trixie), but as this amazing super special person who has the freaking Devil himself falling all over himself for her? She just isnt that interesting. I mean, virtually every character on this show is more engaging as character and seem more intelligent and likable as people, but its Chloe who is always talked up as the most awesome and more special person in the world. Yeah...no. They better explain what kind of cosmic mojo is being worked with her, because to me, she usually comes off as either a boring wet blanket, or a giggling idiot. 

I loath this love triangle, but this one was at least a bit more about Maze being confused by her human emotions than about romance, so its better than the last few episodes. I loved the multiple guys she brought in as a bounty hunter, and how they all have fond memories of her. And the fight in the winery and the speech at the end were actually pretty great. 

Charlotte knowing the truth is probably for the best. Her knowing she isnt crazy (and is still pretty unlikely to tell people the truth) is probably going to be more helpful for her than anything else, and I think it could lead to some decent development. And I cracked up at her talking about Lucifer and Amenadiel being brothers. "I mean, it could make sense if one was adopted...and raised with a different accent...". 

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Ha, I find it kind of hilarious that Charlotte now knows the truth about everything before Chloe.  Granted, at this rate, I think Dan and even Trixie will end up finding out before Chloe ever does.

As much as I didn't care for Maze losing her shit over Linda/Amenadiel, it is almost worth it for that speech at the end.  She is 100% correct that Lucifer treats her as a consolation prize, whenever things don't work with Chloe.  Honestly, I don't even think Lucifer knows he is doing that and I do think he cares for Maze in his own way, but he does take her for granted a lot of times, and I'm glad she's getting tired of that shit.  Now, sure, I'm not exactly wild about this all leading towards her working with Pierce of all people, but I at least see where she is coming from.

I've been pretty lenient on this season as while I do think it hasn't been good as the past two, I've mainly been enjoying it.  But this Chloe/Pierce thing is so not working.  It's not only making Chloe look unprofessional, but idiotic as well.  Top it off with Lucifer being a jealous wimp over it, and  Ella being such an obnoxious fangirl about it, and their scenes might end up becoming fast forward material.

Oh, yeah, the case: called both of the winery folks the first time we see them.  They really weren't even trying with this one.

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About the Maze-Lucifer continuum:  these three seasons of Lucifer are such a short representation of their relationship, I want to 'borrow' sands in the hourglass, so run the days of their lives analogy, gag,  but this doesn't even represent a grain of sand for beings who have knows each other for millennia.  

Does Lucifer even see Maze with a human face or does he see her (subconsciously at the very least) as the wicked faced demon of tens of thousands of years?  Is it fair to expect him to change their relationship, just because they are on earth for a couple of seconds- their time?

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enoughcats, you make a good point about their lifespans - and that's not even taking into account that hell-time runs slower, by a ratio of seconds to months if I recall correctly. And it does make sense to me that they started out in those patterns of behavior - remember, they'd also been in LA for a few years before the show kicked off and they got involved with the rest of the cast. During all that time there wasn't much change in them either.

So while it might be unrealistic to expect beings who've existed for more eons than a human mind can grasp to grow as characters within the space of a few seasons of a television show...that's all the time we have to work with. Foregoing any character arcs because this window of time wouldn't be consequential to them wouldn't make for very interesting viewing.

Unless the show were merely about snarky banter, bizarre murders, and ass-kicking, of course, but it obviously wants to be more than that. We're being asked to relate to their story and their struggles. For that to happen, there has to be more to it than stagnation.

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To paraphrase a tagline from Superman - the Motion Picture

"You will believe a demon can cry."

Well, there is no denying it that Maze the demon has a full range of emotions beyond her usual hedonistic passions that are fulfilled by inflicting pleasure and pain on the damned.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the first time we have seen the character produce tears.  We know she was experiencing emotional hurt and jealousy over Ameninda (wasn't that Lucifer's contraction in this episode?) but it was expressed purely in anger and rage, which was probably the best she could do with her limited experience and emotional range at the time.  Now we see a pure expression of sadness and despair at the knowledge that she will never be the most important thing in Lucifer's life.  I felt quite sorry for the character in the scene.

The other inference that I take from these events, and I don't know that it has ever been made explicit before, is that Maze clearly is in love with Lucifer.  Whether Lucifer created her with those feelings already in place, or he made her only to serve and she fell in love with him at some point since the dawn of mankind is unclear, but the depth of her feelings certainly seems clear to anyone paying attention, except the object of her affection himself, although it is quite possible he is simply not paying attention.  In that way, all these other characters, both her intimate partners like Amenadiel and her besties like Linda and Chloe are really her consolation prizes, since she is denied the real relationship that she pines for.

I don't expect that the show will ever follow up on this or explore those feelings to some sort of conclusion, but TBH, I would be much more interested in watching a developing relationship between Lucifer and Mazikeen, compared to Lucifer and Chloe, which has just become completely stagnant and boring.  OTOH, Lucifer lately has started to become as boring a character as Chloe, in the fact that the character simply won't grow at all in terms of his all-encompassing self-absorption.  For any apparent step forward, the next episode shows two steps back.   There may be an arc to the plot, but the two main characters have none.  Meanwhile, we are seeing Maze, Linda, Amenadiel, Charlotte evolving significantly since they were first introduced, which is why they are all more interesting characters than the leads.

I know it's weird, but while composing this post, I had a Sopranos flashback, in that a major theme that emerged by the end of the series was "people don't change".  Once a sociopathic mob boss, always a sociopathic mob boss.  Once a selfish, narcissistic lord of hell, always a selfish, narcissistic lord of hell.  In this case, it's not a very satisfying theme.

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Watching a show you love(d) slowly slip from excellence into mediocrity is a painful thing.

The first season of Lucifer was some of the most sophisticated TV I've ever seen on broadcast television. But whether they simply ran out of ideas after season one, or changed staffs, or had to dumb things down for the earlier time slot, half the time I don't know if I'm watching Lucifer or a wacky Disney Channel star-crossed tween lovers comedy. 

And that's not good.

I agree with everything everyone has said about Chloe -- she's the least real character ... on a show with the Devil, an angel and a demon. Expecting Lauren German's beautiful face to convey the specialness of the character is just ridiculous. There's gotta be something  more. At least in season 1 she was a competent, no-nonsense detective. Now she's an awkward, giggly schoolgirl. What the hell, show.

And keeping her in the dark about the secrets all around her -- secrets everyone else seems to know by now -- just makes her look even more stupid and clueless and leads nowhere. 

Pierce/Cain is a repulsive character whose woes interest me not at all.

Season 1 Lucifer was always on top of things, now he's a befuddled buffoon. Is he even the devil anymore? He's got no devil face, not even his red devil eyes. Normalized Lucifer= boring Lucifer.

Amenadiel's constant whining? Enough.

Can we just get a spinoff about Linda, Maze and Trixie? To hell with the rest of the cast.

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On 3/27/2018 at 9:08 AM, enoughcats said:

Her gushing with Pierce from the very beginning, her clueless jabbering with her boss....the guy who can fire her or demote her-

They may have no problem with dating, but I bet Pierce's boss (the Chief of Police, if there's no Captain in the chain of command -- thanks, Brooklyn 9-9!) would,  As silly as the the current version of SWAT is, they made it quite clear that you don't date someone in your chain of command.

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20 hours ago, Gummo said:

Season 1 Lucifer was always on top of things, now he's a befuddled buffoon. Is he even the devil anymore? He's got no devil face, not even his red devil eyes. Normalized Lucifer= boring Lucifer.

You could swap him out with any other rich playboy and it wouldn't make any real difference.

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I think it’s important to remember that no one on this show is being kept in the dark about Lucifer’s true nature. he pretty much leads with “I’m Lucifer, I’m the Devil, ruler of Hell, let’s make a deal,” and Chloe’s ignorance is because she chooses not to believe him in spite of things that have happened in front of her (Lucifer’s strength as well as his ability to make people tell him things), not because she’s being lied to. Though I do wish Linda would just smack her upside the head about her refusal to belive.

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3 hours ago, maxineofarc said:

You could swap him out with any other rich playboy and it wouldn't make any real difference.

After this episode I am left finding his accent the only attractive and engaging thing about Lucifer. He's not even been singing that much or playing the piano. 

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4 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

After this episode I am left finding his accent the only attractive and engaging thing about Lucifer. He's not even been singing that much or playing the piano. 

But when he does, rare as it is,  it is worth the wait.

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On 28.3.2018 at 7:22 PM, sd dude said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the first time we have seen the character produce tears. 

We have seen her cry at least twice before, as far as I remember:

- after her fight with Lucifer in season 2, when they were in Linda's office and Linda told Lucifer point blank that Maze had believed he'd abandon her.

- When she found Linda after the goddess had tortured her, and saw how badly injured her friend was.

And she came close to it when she and Linda couldn't revive Lucifer at the hospital when he went to Hell to get that antidote for Chloe.

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21 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

After this episode I am left finding his accent the only attractive and engaging thing about Lucifer. He's not even been singing that much or playing the piano. 

He does have nice suits.

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So, is Pierce/Cain trying to make Lucifer jealous/piss him off, so that Lucifer will go back and try to find a way to kill Cain?  That is, if Lucifer is "Abel" to do so?

Does that mean that Maze is now going to do whatever it takes to piss off Lucifer so that he will take her back to hell?

That would seem to me the only reason why Maze and Peirce/Cain would be working together at all.

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I think he thinks that maybe if he gets close enough to Chloe that it'll make him mortal.  He's watched her and Lucifer and maybe thinks that she has to care about him in order to make him killable; after all, Lucifer only bled around Chloe after they'd known each other a while.  It would be ironic if he ends up in Hell, though.

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16 minutes ago, CuddlerOfDragons said:

I think he thinks that maybe if he gets close enough to Chloe that it'll make him mortal.  He's watched her and Lucifer and maybe thinks that she has to care about him in order to make him killable; after all, Lucifer only bled around Chloe after they'd known each other a while.  It would be ironic if he ends up in Hell, though.

Something is going on,  when the "BUS" sign light had the "U" burn out, leaving "BS".  The writers' aren't very subtle about the message behind that.  Cain is definitely up to something.

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16 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Cain is definitely up to something.

No doubt. The best episode this season, IMO, was Till Death Us Do Part. Lucifer/Cain were hysterical as a couple and far more interesting as partners than Lucifer/Chloe has ever been. So for some inexplicable reason the writers ruined the only thing that worked this season and gave us Chloe/Pierce in its place. Chloe is even more annoying with Pierce than she is with Lucifer. And while Pierce was becoming likeable and interesting while teamed with Lucifer, his relationship with Chloe is already dragging the character down. 

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On 3/28/2018 at 12:22 PM, sd dude said:

Now we see a pure expression of sadness and despair at the knowledge that she will never be the most important thing in Lucifer's life.  I felt quite sorry for the character in the scene.

Why would she have ever thought she might be, though? I really don't see the Lucifer of the series premiere or earlier ever having given Mazikeen indication that she might be anything more than a trusted lieutenant whom he occasionally finds amusing like a feisty pet kitten. And that would have been over anywhere from thousands to billions of years of interaction in a master/servant relationship.

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I am JUST now getting around to watching this episode and mostly to make room on my DVR for GOT. This is awful. I fast forwarded any time Chloe and Lucifer were alone and started talking about relationships.  So basically I ended up fast forwarding EVERY time the two leads of the freaking show were on. I really hate this romance.  I know we maybe a bit of a echo chamber on here but surely there can't be that big of a fan base for this chemistry free pair?  Please free Lucifer so he can be interesting again or I'm not in for the Netflix revival.

Poor Maze. She's right no one deserves her. 

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