S02.E05: Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Florinaldo]

Since AC told JT on the phone that he had taken the gun for protection from DM's stalker (was DM ever really stalked or was this an invention by AC?), it is quite plausible for a character to think that he can handle the situation himself and get the gun back without involving the police, even though they had just quarrelled very violently. Despite that argument, there was a history of friendship between them and the threat appeared to be coming from an outside source; he was lulled into ignoring any suspicion that the gun being taken might normally have aroused.

We do not know if that is how it happened, but it is plausible for the purposes of this story and it shows AC manipulating the whole situation (including getting DM to go down and open the door himself).

Edited February 16, 2018 by Florinaldo

[HunterHunted]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

In this particular era, if you're not white, straight and male, sometimes calling a cop can make a matter much worse.

In this current era, calling a cop can make matters much worse. However, no one seems to have known the depths of Andrew's sociopathy. I can see how David and Jeff could think they could walk Andrew back from his transgressions. Unfortunately, what was broken in Andrew broke a long time ago and there was no fixing him.

Edited February 16, 2018 by HunterHunted

[SarahPrtr]

On 2/15/2018 at 3:30 PM, Chaos Theory said:

A compelling look at the life of Jeff Trail.  Of course Versace got all the publicity being the famous guy that got murdered but Andrew snuffed  out the life of what appears to be a man of such promise and honor.

Yes, like a lot of people not knowing who Ron Goldman was.  They knew Nicole Simpson, but many of them were like, "Who?" when Ron was mentioned (even now).  He was a caring person and should be remembered.  As with Jeff.  He was an honourable man who served his country.  How utterly frustrating to be a good officer and not be treated fairly and judged only for his skills and character. 

 

On 2/15/2018 at 5:34 PM, tennisgurl said:

This show really does do a great job at making the audience feel for Andrews victims, and gives us a really good look into their lives. Poor, poor Jeff Trail. He seemed like such a decent person, and his whole life was screwed up due to bullshit, and then was brutally murdered by some random psychopath who weaseled his way into his life when he was vulnerable. What a messed up series of events. 

I also like how they show how Andrew operates, and how he reels people in, but has trouble keeping them around, hence both his constant moving around, his crime, and, eventually, will tie into his murderous rampage. He can be superficially charming, and has an ability to be what people "need" at that moment, but its all so thin, and his bullshit becomes so apparent, that most people can see through him pretty quickly, even if they underestimate just how awful Andrew is.

 

AC had intelligence, but no soul.  No depth.  Completely shallow.  There's nothing there.  He had nothing to offer except 10 minutes of his superficial charm.  He never wanted to work and was completely penniless from his laziness.  He just thought that whatever qualities he had was enough to make him rich.  If he had been born in this era, he would've been one of the most-watched Youtubers and he most definitely would have been on a reality show.  He would've been one of those hangers-on who would be around people like the Kardashians or the Hiltons (as Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian's 'Gay BFF'), even in the background just for the exposure and slowly work himself up for a solo or a spin-off show.  No doubt.

I've known people like AC (without the murderous part), and also the ones who really push and fight to get in and get involved in your life which is flattering at first, but then once they're in, they get scared and run away or ghost.  Of course you're the one left to pick up the pieces and deal with the utter confusion.  People like AC do something called 'love-bombing', which is exactly what it sounds like.  They shower you with attention and gifts and amazing sex and you fall for it until you are sucked into their lives in a dangerous way and can't have a clean break-up.

 

On 2/16/2018 at 1:13 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

This show is breaking my heart.  They seemed like really good people. 

 

You would think that good, kind people only attract the attention of other decent people, but the opposite tends to be true.  Moochers like AC troll for good people because they tend to have more patience and compassion for messed-up people.  Even if someone keeps screwing up, you still think good of them and have hope for them.  David and Jeff were sweet, caring people and probably put up with AC's shit more than most.  Having a weakness is not the same as being weak, it just means that you are vulnerable to manipulators like AC.  Simply having someone you care about makes you vulnerable because you have something to lose

 

 

20 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think in some ways Cunanan was a shrewd judge of character. He knew he wouldn't be able to control stronger people, so he went after those who were vulnerable in some way.

 

The main motive for AC's killing of Jeff and David was of course, jealousy.  Jealous killings tend to be spontaneous and unplanned murders, even if you've been feeling the resentment for awhile.  That's why a lot of those murders tend to have unusual, or not-for-killing type of weapons like a hammer, a screwdriver, paperweight, etc.  The wounds inflicted on the victims tend to be many, as opposed to one or two, from self-defense.

 

AC thought that he would go to Minneapolis, win David back, and live happily ever after with him in San Francisco.  He may have been more susceptible to exploding under jealousy because his father left when he was a teenager and he was left by David.  He definitely did not go to Minneapolis with the intention of killing anyone, certainly not David.  But being rejected yet again made him psychotic.

 

One of the reasons that made AC so dangerous is he didn't just kill for jealousy.  People who kill their ex/lovers from resentment tend to just kill that one person (like Clara Harris), but AC kept killing because he wanted something his victims had.

 

Again, to answer the question of why the men didn't fight back, it's not about how brave or 'manly' you are, but as a regular person, a civilian, you would be terrified when you're under attack and would not think rationally when under duress.  If David had been attacked first, Jeff may have been able to handle the situation differently because he has military training, but maybe that's why AC went for him first.  To subdue the stronger person so he could control the weaker one better.

 

 

The last movie I saw Edgar Ramirez in, was in 'The Girl On A Train'.  He looks really good on this show, and he looks like GV (I'm still annoyed that they picked Cuba Gooding Jr for OJ.  Cuba's a good actor, but so wrong for the part!!!).  And yes, a very sweet moment when Gianni called in Antonio and did the interview together.

[Jazzhands]

1 hour ago, SarahPrtr said:

Again, to answer the question of why the men didn't fight back, it's not about how brave or 'manly' you are, but as a regular person, a civilian, you would be terrified when you're under attack and would not think rationally when under duress.  If David had been attacked first, Jeff may have been able to handle the situation differently because he has military training, but maybe that's why AC went for him first.  To subdue the stronger person so he could control the weaker one better.

I was watching this and cheering David on to fight back while Andrew was killing Jeff — grab the lamp!  Whack him in the head!

But I completely get why he didn’t.  Jeff was trained military and probably would’ve responded from his training and instinct, but David was probably in a state of complete panic and disbelief.  At least the way it was portrayed on the show, they knew Andrew was a nutter, but that’s a far cry from thinking he’d bash someone’s head in with a hammer. 

When I was in college, I took a self-defense class.  A few years later, I was going to make a pie and had cracked my rolling pin, so I went to the grocery store to get a new one.  On the way out, I had my keys in my right hand, the rolling pin in my left in a plastic bag, and someone grabbed me from behind. Did I whack him with the rolling pin or slash him with my keys?  Nope.  I bent over into the fetal position and started hyperventilating.  If you’d asked me before that happened what I would do if I got attacked from behind, I would’ve said everything I learned in my self-defense class.  But none of that came to me when it actually happened. 

[ahpny]

Quote

 

Quote

I don't understand why Jeff didn't just call the police and tell them that the gun was stolen, and who took it.  Yes, I know what era I am dealing with,

In this particular era, if you're not white, straight and male, sometimes calling a cop can make a matter much worse.

 

I saw this more as not wanting questions arising from the police about who the gun thief was, how Jeff knew him, and why would Jeff let him stay in his apartment. More specifically, the more  plausible reason Jeff didn’t call the police was to keep his private life private, not because he feared inappropriate police behavior. We only have to look back a few episodes of this very show (the murdered Chicago real estate investor) to see how problems arise even from a very friendly and overly deferential police investigation.

[bmoore4026]

I will say this - I did not need to see Darren Criss' dirty ass feet.  You wash them feet, Darren Criss!  Then we can talk.

[kassa]

I have to confess I have fast forwarded through most of the past two episodes - any time violence loomed, which seems like all the time outside of the GV scenes, which to me are the most interesting, anyway. It's not that I don't think the other victims deserve their own respect, but  I don't like that GV is essentially a footnote in a series literally using his name and murder as its selling point. Yes, I realize in life he really did make a cameo at the very end of a story  that didn't have much to do with him, but it still feels like he's being used here.  If the actor weren't so good or the potential for a really good drama out of his own story, maybe it wouldn't irk so much, but every time the story shifts from him to AC, I can feel my interest flag.  

Donatella ought to be thanking her lucky stars she's coming off this well.  She was a mess and Gianni left half the company to her daughter, purposely bypassing giving either sibling a major share.  But here she's beautiful and dynamic and a bottom-line businesswoman. 

[sara416]

Minor annoyance: Jeff was not a soldier. He was a sailor. Soldier : Army :: Sailor : Navy. 

Drove me nuts every time he said it. For a show that has such phenomenal acting and some really great attention to detail, this annoyed me. 

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

I saw this more as not wanting questions arising from the police about who the gun thief was, how Jeff knew him, and why would Jeff let him stay in his apartment.

Absolutely, in effect, making matters much worse.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I saw this more as not wanting questions arising from the police about who the gun thief was, how Jeff knew him, and why would Jeff let him stay in his apartment. More specifically, the more  plausible reason Jeff didn’t call the police was to keep his private life private, not because he feared inappropriate police behavior. We only have to look back a few episodes of this very show (the murdered Chicago real estate investor) to see how problems arise even from a very friendly and overly deferential police investigation.

I viewed it more as the thought being that it wasn't worth the effort because all the police would do is take a report. 

[MaryWebGirl]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I viewed it more as the thought being that it wasn't worth the effort because all the police would do is take a report. 

Also if they did seek out Andrew and arrest/charge him, that would just wrap Jeff up in more drama with him. He was an officer in the Navy who had to deal with homophobic meatheads for years--I can't imagine he saw Andrew as an actual threat.

[CofCinci]

3 hours ago, sara416 said:

Minor annoyance: Jeff was not a soldier. He was a sailor. Soldier : Army :: Sailor : Navy. 

Drove me nuts every time he said it. For a show that has such phenomenal acting and some really great attention to detail, this annoyed me. 

I’m a Navy veteran and I didn’t even notice that! Ha!!  I did notice that there were wearing coveralls and newer utilities. Enlisted were still wearing dungarees in the 1990s.  Also, Jeff would not be in berthing with enlisted men. The greatest annoyance —- all the actors wearing coreframs (black plastic/patent leather Bates shoes) in the engineering spaces of the ship. Holy shit! The shoes would melt to their feet!

[itsjustme]

15 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

In this particular era, if you're not white, straight and male, sometimes calling a cop can make a matter much worse.

weird i did not say Jeff should have called the police about the gun  but it quoted it as me.

19 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Two things I really liked about this episode:

1) More Versace: I can't get enough of Edgar Ramírez in this role.  He is just fantastic.

2) Finally seeing Andrew Cunanan's "charm":  I've said in other episode threads that we were told by other characters that Andrew was charming but we weren't shown enough of this.  Many people wondered how anyone could believe him, or even like him enough to let him into their lives.  In this episode, we finally saw him put on a fake persona good enough to fool someone like Trail.  Their interactions in that first meeting were the things I was talking about.  We finally saw Andrew being charming in a way that we can finally see how he was able to worm his way into his victims lives. 

He was being charming?

Edited February 17, 2018 by itsjustme

[Florinaldo]

18 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

I will say this - I did not need to see Darren Criss' dirty ass feet.  You wash them feet, Darren Criss!  Then we can talk.

They were quite prominently displayed weren't they? I took it as a sign of how low AC had fallen. Either he can't afford the housekeeping charges (assuming there is such a service in that seedy place), or he simply does not care about walking on very dirty floors. The flat also looked shabby and was almost devoid of furnishings, except for the several garbage bags strewn about; what was supposed to be in them, clothes and other belongings perhaps, or real trash he did not bother taking out?

The only things he really cared about was getting the money to get to Minneapolis where he thinks his friends will help him with his problems, and of course shooting up between his toes.

18 hours ago, kassa said:

I have to confess I have fast forwarded through most of the past two episodes - any time violence loomed, which seems like all the time outside of the GV scenes, which to me are the most interesting, anyway. It's not that I don't think the other victims deserve their own respect, but  I don't like that GV is essentially a footnote in a series literally using his name and murder as its selling point.

It has been speculated that the little amount of screen time devoted to the Versace side may cause some viewers to drop off once they realise that the hook used to sell the series is far from being the main presence on the show.

I find the AC side of the story more interesting thant the usual "Lifestyles and Deaths of the Rich and Famous" bent that a GV-centric series might easily have taken. The story of the murders and the lead-up has so far been strong enough that I am on for the rest of the ride. The production may have counted on that to keep aboard a good number of the viewers who initially tuned in because of the Versace name.

[helenamonster]

Jeff Trail's story really got to me because my dad was an officer in the navy and it was one of the most important parts of his life. The care Jeff put into dressing into his uniform--shining his shoes and his hat--before attempting to hang himself, combined with all of his dialogue about honor and the importance of serving your country, really made me tear up. My dad had/has that same uniform (probably with different designations, I don't know what level of officer Jeff Trail was) and even though he's not gay, I know he would be devastated if something so irrelevant had prevented him from serving. Most portrayals of the military in media seem to be army, but there is a very specific kind of pride in navy men that I thought this show got just right.

And yes, with an episode with no murders, it's getting easier to see how Andrew was able to charm his victims and worm his way into their lives. And until he clobbered poor Jeff with a hammer, even when he'd stolen the gun, I can understand how neither Jeff nor David thought he would actually hurt them. He was clingy, desperate, and obsessive, but very few people assume that that will turn into homicidal rage. 

Also, I got to thinking in this episode that just before the murders, Andrew seemed like a harmless dweeb, but then I realized that I remember a bit of the late '90s and that was, unfortunately, how people dressed. And usually fashions fade out over time but it seems like that button-down shirt tucked into khakis with a belt and puffing out look became dated overnight. No one was dressing like that anymore by the new millennium.

On 2/15/2018 at 1:00 PM, Jazzhands said:

I know that Ryan Murphy is taking a lot of liberties with many of the actual details of these stories, but I think he’s doing a really good job with portraying the confusing feeling of the time.  

It may seem hard to believe now for viewers who weren’t born yet or were young at the time, but DADT (both the official military policy and Donatella’s “don’t tell” advice) was actually seen by many as progressive for that time.  Prior to 1994, gays were either rejected as applicants for military service or were discharged if discovered while serving.  DADT was a political compromise that allowed gays to join and/or continue to serve in the military as long as they kept their sexuality private (“don’t tell”), and it was seen even as a protection of gays in that superior officers could no longer try to out them from the closet and oust them from service (“don’t ask”).  Of course, today it is viewed (correctly, IMO) through a completely different lens as discriminatory and oppressive, but at the time it was seen by many as very progressive, and Bill Clinton took a lot of heat from many military and right-wing leaders who believed that gays were morally corrupt risks to national security. 

Donatella’s attitude seemed, to me, also pretty accurate for the time. She loved her brother but had legitimate concerns over public reaction to his planned public coming out.  After ABC aired Ellen’s coming out and a lesbian kiss on her sitcom in 1997, while there were many who hailed it as a breakthrough, there were other, equally loud and powerful voices calling for boycotts.  The show lost major advertisers and the next season aired with parental-guidance warnings and then was canceled. Ricky Martin didn’t come out until 2010 because of concerns over his career and pressure from his record company. 

The world wasn’t necessarily a safe place for LGBTQ+ in the mid-nineties, not only in terms of careers, but also safety (e.g., the murder of Matthew Shepard in 1998).  

Also, besides Donatella being responsible for the company's PR, I'm trying to keep in mind that she's an Italian native, and homophobia has been especially persistent in Italy due to the Catholic Church's influence on the country. Internalized homophobia can be difficult to shake in even the most secular of societies. I'm not trying to make excuses for her behavior but even just going to church once a week as a kid, I had a lot of anti-gay stuff I had to deprogram as I got older.

On 2/15/2018 at 1:02 AM, Shadow Wave said:

Did anybody else notice the boo-boo of having Jeff accuse Andrew of having taken away his life "as a soldier?" I can't imagine anybody in the Navy calling himself that!

Right? When I was in high school and trying to figure out what the next steps of my life would be, my dad said that it didn't matter to him whether or not I joined the military, as long as I didn't join the army. And you can visibly see a vein twitch in his temple whenever my stepsister mistakenly refers to him being in the army, not the navy. I don't totally get where the resentment comes from but it's real.

On 2/15/2018 at 2:01 PM, dubbel zout said:

ETA: I really liked seeing Sophie von Haselberg again as David Madson's co-worker. She had about three lines this episode, but you saw what a good friend Linda was to him. 

I've really liked her, and this episode had a good callback to the last one, when she was telling police that Cunanan seemed off to her. I loved her face when he bragged about spending $10,000 on the watch for David. Like a) who spends $10,000 on a watch, and b) who tells you they spent $10,000 on a watch?

[dubbel zout]

36 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

I don't totally get where the resentment comes from but it's real.

There's always been a rivalry between the armed services, and I think the army and navy have the strongest one, as they're the oldest branches.

[WearyTraveler]

12 hours ago, itsjustme said:

He was being charming?

I thought so.  When he first met Jeff at the bar he greeted him, treated him kindly, made jokes to put him at ease, asked about his life, called him cute, bought him drinks.  That was all very charming.  It was the only time in the episode where we saw him being charming, the rest of the episode he was his own psycho self.

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 2/16/2018 at 12:34 PM, SarahPrtr said:

Yes, like a lot of people not knowing who Ron Goldman was.  They knew Nicole Simpson, but many of them were like, "Who?" when Ron was mentioned (even now).  He was a caring person and should be remembered.  As with Jeff.  He was an honourable man who served his country.  How utterly frustrating to be a good officer and not be treated fairly and judged only for his skills and character. 

 

 

AC had intelligence, but no soul.  No depth.  Completely shallow.  There's nothing there.  He had nothing to offer except 10 minutes of his superficial charm.  He never wanted to work and was completely penniless from his laziness.  He just thought that whatever qualities he had was enough to make him rich.  If he had been born in this era, he would've been one of the most-watched Youtubers and he most definitely would have been on a reality show.  He would've been one of those hangers-on who would be around people like the Kardashians or the Hiltons (as Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian's 'Gay BFF'), even in the background just for the exposure and slowly work himself up for a solo or a spin-off show.  No doubt.

I've known people like AC (without the murderous part), and also the ones who really push and fight to get in and get involved in your life which is flattering at first, but then once they're in, they get scared and run away or ghost.  Of course you're the one left to pick up the pieces and deal with the utter confusion.  People like AC do something called 'love-bombing', which is exactly what it sounds like.  They shower you with attention and gifts and amazing sex and you fall for it until you are sucked into their lives in a dangerous way and can't have a clean break-up.

 

 

You would think that good, kind people only attract the attention of other decent people, but the opposite tends to be true.  Moochers like AC troll for good people because they tend to have more patience and compassion for messed-up people.  Even if someone keeps screwing up, you still think good of them and have hope for them.  David and Jeff were sweet, caring people and probably put up with AC's shit more than most.  Having a weakness is not the same as being weak, it just means that you are vulnerable to manipulators like AC.  Simply having someone you care about makes you vulnerable because you have something to lose

 

 

 

The main motive for AC's killing of Jeff and David was of course, jealousy.  Jealous killings tend to be spontaneous and unplanned murders, even if you've been feeling the resentment for awhile.  That's why a lot of those murders tend to have unusual, or not-for-killing type of weapons like a hammer, a screwdriver, paperweight, etc.  The wounds inflicted on the victims tend to be many, as opposed to one or two, from self-defense.

 

AC thought that he would go to Minneapolis, win David back, and live happily ever after with him in San Francisco.  He may have been more susceptible to exploding under jealousy because his father left when he was a teenager and he was left by David.  He definitely did not go to Minneapolis with the intention of killing anyone, certainly not David.  But being rejected yet again made him psychotic.

 

One of the reasons that made AC so dangerous is he didn't just kill for jealousy.  People who kill their ex/lovers from resentment tend to just kill that one person (like Clara Harris), but AC kept killing because he wanted something his victims had.

 

Again, to answer the question of why the men didn't fight back, it's not about how brave or 'manly' you are, but as a regular person, a civilian, you would be terrified when you're under attack and would not think rationally when under duress.  If David had been attacked first, Jeff may have been able to handle the situation differently because he has military training, but maybe that's why AC went for him first.  To subdue the stronger person so he could control the weaker one better.

 

 

The last movie I saw Edgar Ramirez in, was in 'The Girl On A Train'.  He looks really good on this show, and he looks like GV (I'm still annoyed that they picked Cuba Gooding Jr for OJ.  Cuba's a good actor, but so wrong for the part!!!).  And yes, a very sweet moment when Gianni called in Antonio and did the interview together.

This is interesting. If AC were youtubing today, would he be popular? Would he appear on reality TV shows and achieve the level of fame he craved? 

[Florinaldo]

20 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

This is interesting. If AC were youtubing today, would he be popular? Would he appear on reality TV shows and achieve the level of fame he craved? 

Considering the rather low standards applied by audiences today in making celebrities out of people, I think that AC could easily have become a reality TV or Web star, although perhaps only a minor one. Would he have been satisfied with that?

[itsjustme]

11 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I thought so.  When he first met Jeff at the bar he greeted him, treated him kindly, made jokes to put him at ease, asked about his life, called him cute, bought him drinks.  That was all very charming.  It was the only time in the episode where we saw him being charming, the rest of the episode he was his own psycho self.

He stilled seem a bit smug to me.   I guess the real guy might not have come off that way though.

[vixenbynight]

14 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I thought so.  When he first met Jeff at the bar he greeted him, treated him kindly, made jokes to put him at ease, asked about his life, called him cute, bought him drinks. That was all very charming. It was the only time in the episode where we saw him being charming, the rest of the episode he was his own psycho self.

It shows a pattern in how both Jeff and David initially felt and thought about Andrew before they realized what a cipher he was in their lives. Jeff saw Andrew as this friendly guy, who didn't make him feel strange or odd about not having been out, while David saw Andrew as this guy, he wanted to be like.

[vixenbynight]

18 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

They were quite prominently displayed weren't they? I took it as a sign of how low AC had fallen. Either he can't afford the housekeeping charges (assuming there is such a service in that seedy place), or he simply does not care about walking on very dirty floors. The flat also looked shabby and was almost devoid of furnishings, except for the several garbage bags strewn about; what was supposed to be in them, clothes and other belongings perhaps, or real trash he did not bother taking out?

The only things he really cared about was getting the money to get to Minneapolis where he thinks his friends will help him with his problems, and of course shooting up between his toes.

It has been speculated that the little amount of screen time devoted to the Versace side may cause some viewers to drop off once they realise that the hook used to sell the series is far from being the main presence on the show.

I find the AC side of the story more interesting thant the usual "Lifestyles and Deaths of the Rich and Famous" bent that a GV-centric series might easily have taken. The story of the murders and the lead-up has so far been strong enough that I am on for the rest of the ride. The production may have counted on that to keep aboard a good number of the viewers who initially tuned in because of the Versace name.

It has certainly worked for this viewer, because I remember the initial aftermath and ALL the crime programs focused mainly on Cununan's obsession and murder of Versace, along with how his friends just couldn't see how the Andrew that "they knew" could murder 5 people.

We might have gotten a 1 to 2 minute segment on his other victims.

That is why I am not bothered by Gianni and his saga being the B storyline of the series. We finally got to see Lee, David, Jeff and William (in with the little that was focused on him) being fleshed out.

[mojoween]

When the ep first started I was thinking they really should have done the whole series in chronological order because not once has Andrew seemed charming.  But then they got to the scenes at Flicks and I was like “ahh, ok.  It’s the most human he’s seemed the entire time.”

And then the more I thought about it the more I don’t want AC to ever be humanized.  Fucker doesn’t deserve it.

[kj4ever]

On 2/18/2018 at 12:17 AM, itsjustme said:

He stilled seem a bit smug to me.   I guess the real guy might not have come off that way though.

Me too.  Seemed like the same deadpan act we've been seeing from the actor the whole time.

I really love that even though it might not be real, the story of Jeff Trail was told.  It was heartbreaking but needs to be heard, now more than ever.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 2/16/2018 at 6:40 PM, CofCinci said:

I’m a Navy veteran and I didn’t even notice that! Ha!!  I did notice that there were wearing coveralls and newer utilities. Enlisted were still wearing dungarees in the 1990s.  Also, Jeff would not be in berthing with enlisted men. The greatest annoyance —- all the actors wearing coreframs (black plastic/patent leather Bates shoes) in the engineering spaces of the ship. Holy shit! The shoes would melt to their feet!

I thought it was weird Jeff was sleeping in the barracks! I was going to text my dad and ask if that was some kind of training thing or something but Jeff was at least a lieutenant jg, he wasn't that junior.

 

On 2/17/2018 at 12:42 PM, dubbel zout said:

There's always been a rivalry between the armed services, and I think the army and navy have the strongest one, as they're the oldest branches.

The Navy is the senior service (Navy brat for my infancy--in fact I was born in Coronado and my father was stationed at the base in San Diego). Yeah, Jeff was a sailor, NOT a soldier.

 

On 2/18/2018 at 4:26 AM, vixenbynight said:

It has certainly worked for this viewer, because I remember the initial aftermath and ALL the crime programs focused mainly on Cununan's obsession and murder of Versace, along with how his friends just couldn't see how the Andrew that "they knew" could murder 5 people.

We might have gotten a 1 to 2 minute segment on his other victims.

That is why I am not bothered by Gianni and his saga being the B storyline of the series. We finally got to see Lee, David, Jeff and William (in with the little that was focused on him) being fleshed out.

Agreed. I love the focus in the victims, in contrast to how so many such programs focus on the killer which often ends up making him fascinating. I am also loving the backwards narrative structure.

[Florinaldo]

20 hours ago, mojoween said:

And then the more I thought about it the more I don’t want AC to ever be humanized.  Fucker doesn’t deserve it.

It would be difficult not to humanise him at least a little; he is human after all and he must have had some positive aspects in his earlier life, if only the charm of which we have seen a few manifestations.

Huumanity is far from uniformly pretty and there is frequently a potential dark side simmering under a nice surface; humans are often full of contradictions. "Hitler Painted Roses" as Harlan Ellison reminds us in the title of his celebrated short story; it certainy does not excuse the terrible actions, but it raises questions as to how a person could get there. At the same time, it may create some conflicting emotions in the viewer thanks to the reverse chronological narration: we have seen AC at his worst, being violently murderous and having become a waste of space in society. By going backwards, who knows how we will react to seeing him as a younger, supposedly more functional person. Even more so if, as I expect, we do not get complete and pat answers.

Cast and crew have said that the one thing they wanted to avoid was to make his sympathetic; the narrative structure is a wise choice to that end since our knowledge of the stone-faced murderous beast he became will always cast a shadow over our perception of him, even in his younger version.

 

On 17/02/2018 at 1:49 PM, WearyTraveler said:

When he first met Jeff at the bar he greeted him, treated him kindly, made jokes to put him at ease, asked about his life, called him cute, bought him drinks.  That was all very charming.

Absolutely, just as he also exhibited some of his manipulative charm with his San Francisco friends in the first episode or when he persuaded the front desk lady to give him a better room; the opera fantasy sequence with GV also displayed some of that charm. Although there always seems a certain distance to his charm, as if he is putting on an act because he feels obligated to seduce and please people. Which may be why he looks so pleased with himself as he is trying to become JT'S gay Yoda and buys him drinks, because he knows he has just given a successful performance.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Florinaldo

[sara416]

On 2/16/2018 at 5:40 PM, CofCinci said:

I’m a Navy veteran and I didn’t even notice that! Ha!!  I did notice that there were wearing coveralls and newer utilities. Enlisted were still wearing dungarees in the 1990s.  Also, Jeff would not be in berthing with enlisted men. The greatest annoyance —- all the actors wearing coreframs (black plastic/patent leather Bates shoes) in the engineering spaces of the ship. Holy shit! The shoes would melt to their feet!

My husband is in the Army, and I can no longer watch any military related movies with him because he loves to point out all the inaccuracies. He said that apparently, in movies and tv shows, they purposely wear incorrect uniforms. He said there's a reason for it, but I don't remember what it was, other than to drive people crazy who watch movies with military people. 

[dubbel zout]

37 minutes ago, sara416 said:

they purposely wear incorrect uniforms. He said there's a reason for it, but I don't remember what it was

Is it out of respect for the men and women who have served/are currently serving? That's about the only reason I can think of, unless there's some legal reason.

[CeeBeeGee]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Is it out of respect for the men and women who have served/are currently serving? That's about the only reason I can think of, unless there's some legal reason.

My guess is that it is so US enemies (spies, etc.) can't copy the uniform to impersonate someone in the services.

[dubbel zout]

That sounds right, @CeeBeeGee.

[smiley13]

So if he met Jeff Trail in a bar in San Diego, when did David come into the picture?  Were David, Jeff and Andrew all in San Diego at some point?  How did both David and Jeff end up in Minneapolis?  Guess I need to do some reading on the back story.

[Florinaldo]

13 hours ago, smiley13 said:

So if he met Jeff Trail in a bar in San Diego, when did David come into the picture?

In the previous episode's diner scene, DM recalls his first meeting with Andrew, "a year and a half" before in San Francisco as related in the dialogue. I forget if Orth goes into details in her book as to how he and JT ended up in Minneapolis; perhaps the answer is in the further research that has been done since then and in preparation for this series. Going by the captions in the last episode, AC and JT met in the bar 2 years before the murders, which would mean AC first met JT and then DM some months later.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Florinaldo

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Blood On The Dance Floor

American Crime Story explores the fear of rejection, the battle between pride and shame, and a Don't Ask Don't Tell comic book (uch) in this Epic Old-School Recap of S02.E05.

[LennieBriscoe]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:15 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

My guess is that it is so US enemies (spies, etc.) can't copy the uniform to impersonate someone in the services.

It's not like our troops are sequestered. Wearing correct uniforms is permitted for actors:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/772

"While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force."

Does anyone know why there is no show on 2/21?

Edited February 21, 2018 by LennieBriscoe

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 2/15/2018 at 2:51 PM, txhorns79 said:

I had read that the physical evidence from when David's body was found suggested he was murdered before the road trip ever occurred, and the people who ID'd he and Andrew at the bar and diner were likely mistaken.  My thought was that the real David never got a chance to fight back because he probably was murdered shortly after Jeff. 

Didn't neighbors report seeing David and Andrew walking the dog the day after Trail was killed, though? David's murder definitely could have happened a bit earlier (and witnesses at the diner/bar could be mistaken), but I don't think it happened until at least after the reported sightings of David & Andrew walking the dog. (Last episode did make it seem like they were on the road a long time, when in fact the drive from David's condo to where his body was found is only about an hour's drive.) I give more credence to the neighbors' accounts of seeing David and Andrew walking the dog than the possible sightings at the bar and restaurant since the neighbors regularly saw David and wouldn't have confused him with someone else.  

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/02/versace-murder-david-madson-andrew-cunanan

On 2/17/2018 at 8:39 AM, Florinaldo said:

They were quite prominently displayed weren't they? I took it as a sign of how low AC had fallen. Either he can't afford the housekeeping charges (assuming there is such a service in that seedy place), or he simply does not care about walking on very dirty floors. The flat also looked shabby and was almost devoid of furnishings, except for the several garbage bags strewn about; what was supposed to be in them, clothes and other belongings perhaps, or real trash he did not bother taking out?

The only things he really cared about was getting the money to get to Minneapolis where he thinks his friends will help him with his problems, and of course shooting up between his toes.

It has been speculated that the little amount of screen time devoted to the Versace side may cause some viewers to drop off once they realise that the hook used to sell the series is far from being the main presence on the show.

I find the AC side of the story more interesting thant the usual "Lifestyles and Deaths of the Rich and Famous" bent that a GV-centric series might easily have taken. The story of the murders and the lead-up has so far been strong enough that I am on for the rest of the ride. The production may have counted on that to keep aboard a good number of the viewers who initially tuned in because of the Versace name.

I took Andrew's place being devoid of furnishings, etc. as meant to show us that whatever he'd acquired through mooching off his sugar daddies or by hooking had ended up being sold to try to fund keeping up appearances in public and buy drugs (and maybe to buy $10k watches, assuming he hadn't stolen it). 

On 2/17/2018 at 9:37 PM, Florinaldo said:

Considering the rather low standards applied by audiences today in making celebrities out of people, I think that AC could easily have become a reality TV or Web star, although perhaps only a minor one. Would he have been satisfied with that?

No.  IMO, that sociopath wouldn't have been satisfied with that, especially after his 15 minutes were up. 

 

I personally like that the show is focusing so much on the victims. Even if some changes and mistakes (like calling a sailor a soldier...ugh) were made, I think the show is doing a good job of creating a narrative for each victim (aside from maybe the cemetery caretaker, whose backstory wasn't really focused on to the extent that others' have been) that speaks to the them as being real people who were loved, loving, and had their own struggles and successes. I like that because in most true crime genre shows/books you just get a quick reduction of who the victim was ("loving mother," "good friend," their job, etc) and the focus is on the murderer. I know the OJ season had its own source material (the book, which largely focused on the trial) but I definitely didn't get any kind of feeling for who Nicole was other than a now dead body who OJ beat up and abused when she was a live body.  The show didn't try to tell me anything about Nicole's life or identity as a person herself.  I learned via google the extent to which OJ had bought her family's loyalty through jobs/money/tuition payments while he regularly beat her. I learned that she was an avid runner (as am I). I learned that she was a teenage waitress when an older, richer, still-married man with more life experience set his sights on her, likely because he could ensnare, entrap, and control her better than women with more life experience as well as education/monetary resources to fall back on. Ron Goldman has largely been treated in the media (and on that ACS season) as an afterthought as well by everyone except the Goldman Family (and prosecutors).  

It's very different from how stuff in the true crime genre usually is and I think that's why it seems kind of strange at first to those of used to more traditional true crime shows/movies/books. It breaks the formula we are used to and that can kind of be off-putting just because it's strange to get our heads around the idea that "wow, they actually are trying to give a narrative to who this person was."  I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.  Before this series I could tell you a basic bio of Cunanan.  I knew who Gianni Versace was. I knew Cunanan had killed other people. Until this series, I couldn't remember their names or what they'd accomplished/what was important to them/their backgrounds.

Sorry this is an essay. 

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Does anyone know why there is no show on 2/21?

My best guess is that the second week of the Winter Olympics may be the one that usually garners the most viewership and presents the strongest competition. I note that other shows are on hiatus or repeat this week, some having done so last week also. Most appear to return next week.

Or perhaps they are taking a break in the middle of February Sweeps with an expectation to come back strong for the last day of that exercise.

 

2 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I took Andrew's place being devoid of furnishings, etc. as meant to show us that whatever he'd acquired through mooching off his sugar daddies or by hooking had ended up being sold to try to fund keeping up appearances in public and buy drugs (and maybe to buy $10k watches, assuming he hadn't stolen it). 

I also thought that him gathering all of his nice suits and shirts from the closet and then turning up in Minneapolis with very little luggage implied that he had sold the clothes to finance his trip, probably for much less than their original value since he appeared so desperate for money.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Florinaldo

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Florinaldo said:

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Does anyone know why there is no show on 2/21?

My best guess is that the second week of the Winter Olympics may be the one that usually garners the most viewership and presents the strongest competition. I note that other shows are on hiatus or repeat this week, some having done so last week also. Most appear to return next week.

It's definitely the Olympics. 

[helenamonster]

4 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I personally like that the show is focusing so much on the victims. Even if some changes and mistakes (like calling a sailor a soldier...ugh) were made, I think the show is doing a good job of creating a narrative for each victim (aside from maybe the cemetery caretaker, whose backstory wasn't really focused on to the extent that others' have been) that speaks to the them as being real people who were loved, loving, and had their own struggles and successes. I like that because in most true crime genre shows/books you just get a quick reduction of who the victim was ("loving mother," "good friend," their job, etc) and the focus is on the murderer. I know the OJ season had its own source material (the book, which largely focused on the trial) but I definitely didn't get any kind of feeling for who Nicole was other than a now dead body who OJ beat up and abused when she was a live body.  The show didn't try to tell me anything about Nicole's life or identity as a person herself.  I learned via google the extent to which OJ had bought her family's loyalty through jobs/money/tuition payments while he regularly beat her. I learned that she was an avid runner (as am I). I learned that she was a teenage waitress when an older, richer, still-married man with more life experience set his sights on her, likely because he could ensnare, entrap, and control her better than women with more life experience as well as education/monetary resources to fall back on. Ron Goldman has largely been treated in the media (and on that ACS season) as an afterthought as well by everyone except the Goldman Family (and prosecutors).  

It's very different from how stuff in the true crime genre usually is and I think that's why it seems kind of strange at first to those of used to more traditional true crime shows/movies/books. It breaks the formula we are used to and that can kind of be off-putting just because it's strange to get our heads around the idea that "wow, they actually are trying to give a narrative to who this person was."  I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.  Before this series I could tell you a basic bio of Cunanan.  I knew who Gianni Versace was. I knew Cunanan had killed other people. Until this series, I couldn't remember their names or what they'd accomplished/what was important to them/their backgrounds.

Sorry this is an essay. 

I think the reason for the bolded is because in the context of Cunanan's spree, William Reese was, unfortunately, quite incidental. Cunanan's other victims (possibly excluding Lee Miglin, as the extent of their relationship is unclear) were specifically targeted as outlets for his rage, jealousy, and self-loathing. I'm sure William Reese had a full life worth exploring, but his role in this story could have been filled by anyone unlucky enough to cross Cunanan's path when he was desperate to ditch Lee Miglin's car.

[LennieBriscoe]

Thanks for mentioning the Olympics, peeps! I mean, I've been watching them, but FX is such an oddball channel that I thought it would be full speed ahead!

[SWLinPHX]

Quote

It breaks the formula we are used to and that can kind of be off-putting just because it's strange to get our heads around the idea that "wow, they actually are trying to give a narrative to who this person was."  I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.  Before this series I could tell you a basic bio of Cunanan.  I knew who Gianni Versace was. I knew Cunanan had killed other people. Until this series, I couldn't remember their names or what they'd accomplished/what was important to them/their backgrounds.

I remembered, but not from back then.  I knew their stories only because just 2-3 months before the miniseries began all three major networks aired one-hour documentaries on their news shows (Dateline, 20/20, 48 Hours) about Cunanan and his trail of victims for the 20th anniversary, as they did with Princess Diana's death.

Edited February 22, 2018 by SWLinPHX

[candle96]

On 2/15/2018 at 12:00 PM, Jazzhands said:

I know that Ryan Murphy is taking a lot of liberties with many of the actual details of these stories, but I think he’s doing a really good job with portraying the confusing feeling of the time.  

It may seem hard to believe now for viewers who weren’t born yet or were young at the time, but DADT (both the official military policy and Donatella’s “don’t tell” advice) was actually seen by many as progressive for that time.  Prior to 1994, gays were either rejected as applicants for military service or were discharged if discovered while serving.  DADT was a political compromise that allowed gays to join and/or continue to serve in the military as long as they kept their sexuality private (“don’t tell”), and it was seen even as a protection of gays in that superior officers could no longer try to out them from the closet and oust them from service (“don’t ask”).  Of course, today it is viewed (correctly, IMO) through a completely different lens as discriminatory and oppressive, but at the time it was seen by many as very progressive, and Bill Clinton took a lot of heat from many military and right-wing leaders who believed that gays were morally corrupt risks to national security. 

Donatella’s attitude seemed, to me, also pretty accurate for the time. She loved her brother but had legitimate concerns over public reaction to his planned public coming out.  After ABC aired Ellen’s coming out and a lesbian kiss on her sitcom in 1997, while there were many who hailed it as a breakthrough, there were other, equally loud and powerful voices calling for boycotts.  The show lost major advertisers and the next season aired with parental-guidance warnings and then was canceled. Ricky Martin didn’t come out until 2010 because of concerns over his career and pressure from his record company. 

The world wasn’t necessarily a safe place for LGBTQ+ in the mid-nineties, not only in terms of careers, but also safety (e.g., the murder of Matthew Shepard in 1998).  

Yes to all of this! People now know Ellen as this fun, mainstream talk show host, but she went through a period where she was rejected by a huge segment of Hollywood and society. Her career was kind of dead there for awhile. 

I like the irony of Ricky Martin playing a gay man at the exact same time he, in real life, publicly dismissed those rumors about himself. 1995-97 was the height of his fame. 

On 2/15/2018 at 12:41 PM, icemiser69 said:

What makes it so difficult to watch, is that Andrew isn't getting any push back.  He just destroys life after life, family after family, and no one has done anything about it.  I can't stand that smug look on his face.  I am surprised no one has knocked him on his ass.  They just put up with his bullshit. 

I think what this episode shows us is that the people who were his first victims didn't see him as any physical threat. They thought he was annoying and a bit of a grifter, but certainly not capable of physical violence. I guess we'll find out more about him prior to these murders, but up to this point Jeff and David considered him largely harmless. I'm not sure who you think would push back? 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, candle96 said:

I think what this episode shows us is that the people who were his first victims didn't see him as any physical threat. They thought he was annoying and a bit of a grifter, but certainly not capable of physical violence. I guess we'll find out more about him prior to these murders, but up to this point Jeff and David considered him largely harmless. I'm not sure who you think would push back? 

Who would think murder would be Andrew's response? That's not something people immediately jump to. Andrew caught his victims off-guard (except, so far, David and William Reese), so they had no time to fight back.

[sashayshante]

This show is fascinating. I have to admit the first few episodes weren't really pulling me in, but as soon as they went back in time to the previous killings I was on the edge of my seat.

I don't think Andrew ever planned on killing anyone when he first decided to go to Minneapolis. I think he went there to get David back. When David rejected him, I think he blamed Jeff because Jeff and David had become friends. It was only after David rejected him that Andrew snapped, His plan to kill Jeff was, I think, more about setting up David so David would be forced to spend the rest of his life on the run with Andrew.  Since we know Madson was shot in the back, it's safe to assume Madson tried to escape and Andrew shot him. That bullet to the face (which is based on the police report) was very personal.

 

What's really tragic is how, in every episode, there's a reminder of how bigoted society still was in 1997. You can't help but sit there and think how much happiness and love and joy was stolen from these men. They were robbed of getting married, having kids, and living their lives honestly and openly.

[Jazzhands]

5 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

His plan to kill Jeff was, I think, more about setting up David so David would be forced to spend the rest of his life on the run with Andrew. 

I don’t know if this is what really happened, but that was completely my feeling while watching the show.  The murder happened in David’s apartment with David’s hammer.  I would imagine that the police would’ve been looking for David not as a hostage/kidnapping victim, but as the prime murder suspect.  David knew that, and Andrew took advantage of it to get David to run away with him.  That, and putting the fear into David of being the next victim if he didn’t do what Andrew wanted. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don’t know if this is what really happened, but that was completely my feeling while watching the show.  The murder happened in David’s apartment with David’s hammer.  I would imagine that the police would’ve been looking for David not as a hostage/kidnapping victim, but as the prime murder suspect.  David knew that, and Andrew took advantage of it to get David to run away with him.  That, and putting the fear into David of being the next victim if he didn’t do what Andrew wanted. 

From what I've read, the reality was that David likely accidentally walked in on Jeff's murder as it was occurring, Andrew took him hostage and killed him within a day or so of Jeff's murder.  Most of what we saw on the show with the long road trip likely never happened.   

[helenamonster]

On 2/22/2018 at 8:46 PM, sashayshante said:

What's really tragic is how, in every episode, there's a reminder of how bigoted society still was in 1997. You can't help but sit there and think how much happiness and love and joy was stolen from these men. They were robbed of getting married, having kids, and living their lives honestly and openly.

It's insane how much has changed regarding the LGBT community in just my lifetime alone (I was born in 1994). As others have mentioned, the same year these murders were happening, Ellen and her "gay agenda" were being forced off tv, and now she's arguably more successful than she was then, and gets to gush about her wife on her talkshow. All of these anti-gay attitudes we see on this show seem so outdated, like something from Downton Abbey times, but it was only twenty-one years ago. We're still not all the way there yet, but the rate of progress is promising.

[Rubyslippahz]

On February 19, 2018 at 8:07 PM, smiley13 said:

So if he met Jeff Trail in a bar in San Diego, when did David come into the picture?  Were David, Jeff and Andrew all in San Diego at some point?  How did both David and Jeff end up in Minneapolis?  Guess I need to do some reading on the back story.

 

David was from Wisconsin and went to architecture school at the University of Minnesota.   Jeff Trail was from DeKalb Illinois (hometown of Cindy Crawford).   

This episode was heartbreaking and the violence shown in the navy ship was sickening.   The inhumanity of homophobia and associated cruelty was very well depicted.   

This article in People in 1997 about Jeff has a lot of good info from his sister who met Andrew.    

http://people.com/archive/one-good-man-vol-48-no-6/

[methodwriter85]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:29 AM, sugarbaker design said:

In this particular era, if you're not white, straight and male, sometimes calling a cop can make a matter much worse.

It can get you escorted right back to the waiting arms of your serial killer!

It was really eye-opening to remember how bad things were in the military then, and I thought Finn did a fantastic job. Jeff is so different from any character I've seen him play. I completely bought his character hook, line, and sinker.

[sashayshante]

5 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It can get you escorted right back to the waiting arms of your serial killer!

It was really eye-opening to remember how bad things were in the military then, and I thought Finn did a fantastic job. Jeff is so different from any character I've seen him play. I completely bought his character hook, line, and sinker.

Yup. Same thing happened with one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims. He escaped, a policeman found him, Dahmer caught up to them and said his friend was drunk (he was semi-nude, I believe) and the cop just let Dahmer whisk him away. What's really powerful about this season is that it's a reminder that, while things are better today, it wasn't that long ago when homosexuality was considered something to be ashamed of and that had to be hidden. There was an episode of Will and Grace earlier this season where Will schools a younger gay man about how millenials could have coming out parties because men of Will's era fought and struggled for their rights. I mean, the government was more than willing to let gay men die rather than give money to AIDS research. That was maybe 25 years ago.

One thing that can be said about Murphy's ACS/AHS series is that they introduce audiences to some jaw-dropping talent. Witrock is so clutch and versatile. And now we have Cody Fern in The Ryan Murphy Canon. I felt about his performance the way I felt about Edward Norton in Primal Fear.  I can't wait to see more from him.

[SmithW6079]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:51 PM, helenamonster said:

It's insane how much has changed regarding the LGBT community in just my lifetime alone (I was born in 1994). As others have mentioned, the same year these murders were happening, Ellen and her "gay agenda" were being forced off tv, and now she's arguably more successful than she was then, and gets to gush about her wife on her talkshow. All of these anti-gay attitudes we see on this show seem so outdated, like something from Downton Abbey times, but it was only twenty-one years ago. We're still not all the way there yet, but the rate of progress is promising.

Unfortunately, the rate of progress is slowing or going back, with bigotry being "repackaged" under the guise of "religious freedom."