S19.E13: The Undiscovered Country

[Xeliou66]

Thought I would start the episode thread since no one else had. Should be interesting, Barba in trouble, Jack McCoy returning, Peter Stone entering, also one of my favorite defense lawyers, Dworkin, is back. 

[farmgal4]

Man, that was difficult to watch.  Great acting.

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Thought I would start the episode thread since no one else had. Should be interesting, Barba in trouble, Jack McCoy returning, Peter Stone entering, also one of my favorite defense lawyers, Dworkin, is back. 

Barba’s becoming somewhat of a loose cannon.  I’m hoping they’re not trying to write him out of the show.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I. Am. Speechless.

[RafaelBarbas]

I am furious at this episode so far. Barba would never. Ever!

The only thing I'm genuinely excited for is seeing how this board will twist logic to say Olivia made Rafael do it.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Haven't watched since last Fall, WTF?!

Edited February 8, 2018 by MrsRafaelBarba

[MrsRafaelBarba]

They dumped Raul for ADA Strike Back.

[farmgal4]

I. AM. PISSED.

[RafaelBarbas]

If we had to lose him, at least Barson was canon in the end.

Other than that, fuck the episode.

[farmgal4]

10 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Haven't watched since last Fall, WTF?!

I’m ready to boycott the damn show.

[LizDC]

Interview with Esparza...

http://ew.com/tv/2018/02/07/law-order-svu-raul-esparza-exit/

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Raul signed on after Leap of Faith tanked on Broadway.

Heard he's returned and has play coming.

Guess he was ready to return to his first love.

 

Good for him.

 

But this is just as bad as Elizabeth Rohm's exit.

 

Plus they destroyed his character.

[SuzieQ]

I would have posted sooner, but was busy retching! That was the worst piece of melodramatic slop I've ever seen on a show filled with melodramatic slop!  I liked Barba initially because he had some balls, but those are long gone.  Now Stone will be a regular and I think this show might be coming off the DVR.  Not sure yet.  Might be some good scenes where Stone tells Benson to eff off.

[RafaelBarba35]

What the fuck! I am done with this show! Not only do they destroy the best character on the show, they replace him with another white guy. 

Oh yeah he was gonna be Barba's boss. Sure he will. Bullshit!

Rafael would never do that! Ever! I hate the writers! This is such... I don't even know what to say. Fuck this shit! I'm out

[LizDC]

Olivia needs to look into another line of work since she has lost all objectivity and 

Spoiler

based on the previews of the next episode, she has no objectivity there either.

Barba pulled the plug on the baby and his prosecution was not out of line and that Stone dude was not wrong for doing it.  I’m glad he wasn’t convicted but that was something a jury needed to determine.

Also, I hope the new ADA will be able to maintain some independence from the SVU and not become a member of the Olivia Benson Fan Club.

Edited February 8, 2018 by LizDC
More thoughts

[catrice2]

Am I the only one from the Law and Order family that cares that Ben Stone is dead? I did not care about the episode, have not watched more than a few in 3 years, but came back for Jack. Olivia is a joke.  Never liked Barba or the way the actor portrayed him.  

[Gigglepuff]

I don't think that this ep in particular destroyed Barba's character at all. His character weakened in some ways over the last few seasons (my feelings), but I actually liked him and understood him in this one.

Many people are in support of right to die and right to die legislation has been passed  in many western countries. What Barba did was legally wrong of course and I understand why they had to prosecute him, but still, I don't doubt that he was acting out of compassion, and I'm glad the jury found him not guilty. People, societies will debate right to die until the end of time and there will always be advocates and detractors. I actually thought this ep did a fairly decent job depicting that. 

I must say that everyone knocked it out of the park tonight, especially the actress who played the mom and Raul. Characters leave shows, and I though this was a decent send off for Barba. He did what he thought was right, just like he did in the beginning. This ep was kind of like an old school episode, one that made you think and consider both sides of the coin. 

[Gigi43]

Uhg, SVU finally does a topical case instead of Guy (usually rich) preys on women and this is it.

 

I don't know how I feel about cases like this, I don't think they're "murder" but it also makes me feel comfortable when I hear it's done. Some people that know me are surprised by -and sometimes outraged- my not really murder stance because I had a vent, a real vent through a trache not in the mouth and not that bipap mask the show went with, I functioned mentally, walked, etc, and there was a chance I could get off it one day and I did almost 7yrs into my life. Huge difference some people just can't accept it can't be compared. This case and cases like this where there is no hope and no function, I just get it. However, this was a shit way to write Barba out. I don't find it in character at all. The father didn't want it and that's a big deal to me he shouldn't be dismissed as it was a deep issue for him that he means well by. I was unclear if the baby had no function/ brain activity, not a low function or malfunction how were they sure the brain could sense pain signals, only pain, as they said 50 times. Wouldn't someone be numb since the brain processes pain?

 

Of course Barba's last scene is kissing Liv's ass. Liv was on her high horse for prosecutors doing their effing job. Is Stone going to be the bad guy aka a real prosecutor or will he be "changed" by Liv too. The saving moment is that McCoy didn't cave to Liv. I do hope Voight is mentioned at some point as Liv worked well with him the little they worked together and from the little I saw of Justice Stone sees Voight for who he really is.

 

I don't buy a baby that sick only having a neighbor babysitter and not a nurse, that was sloppy, but I'm obviously neurotic about spotting things like that.
 

We lost two ADAs in one episode. Bye Ben Stone. I liked you. Too bad they gave him a son only to kill him. I've heard there were issues with the actor so why give that character -though he was an original- a kid to continue on with no chance of him coming on for a visit? I wonder how many people know Ben Stone that watched Justice or current day SVU for nostalgia over a kid of his now a lawyer? Or remember that he mentioned daughters on Mothership?

 

Bye Barba! You started great. I love Raul as an actor and hope to get to see him in a lot of other things from here on out.

[dttruman]

16 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Plus they destroyed his character.

Soooooo Right! I don't know what was worse, the so out of place character change of Barba, the watered down trial (that hardly used Dworkin), or Benson screen time. I can't believe Michael Chernuchin wrote this. Everything in this was cut back so much to make room for Benson's ridiculous heroic effort to walk in unarmed to talk with the father and her impassioned speeches to Stone, McCoy, and her Rafa.

[wknt3]

The Good:
Jack McCoy! Loved him at the funeral. I was getting more than a hint of Pod McCoy at the end ("you don't have to do this" WTF???) but early on it was great before we got SVU Season 19 in our mothership Season 20.
Fin! The voice of reason. The voice of the viewer. "Don't do it!" If only she had listened to him before walking into another freaking hostage situation. I kind of wish the gun was real and she finally got what was coming to her.
Dworkin. Not really enough screen time, but always a treat and it's nice to see a great defense attorney in a script from someone  who can actually write good legal material.
The Carisi scene where he talks about staying a cop. It's nice to see him as an intelligent and sensitive cop who sees the shades of gray without becoming jaded or an advocate.
Raul Esparza's performance. He did a good job putting lipstick on this pig.
Stone - it was nice to see a prosecutor acting like a prosecutor and hopefully the antagonism resets the relationship between squad and DA going forward.
It wasn't a two parter.

The Bad:
The stupidity of the plot. This has already been thoroughly covered, but I couldn't let it go unmentioned. It was so painful and unbearable I came close to pulling the plug on my TV.
They didn't make McCoy kiss Benson's ass or worship her, but they did nerf him pretty good. We all know that the McCoy we know and love would have torn Barba a new one for taking it on himself to pull the plug and would never have been so calm about it.
The ending scene. "You complete me Liv. I worship the ground you walk on and until I accepted you as my lord and savior I never knew what I was missing."
Mariska wasn't on screen much, but she managed to piss me off even more than usual with the overacting and her obvious insistence that Benson can never be shown as wrong or not in the center of things.
This was obviously meant to attempt to appeal to the old school lapsed fans, but they missed so many opportunities (and not just bringing in McCoy and Dworkin and name checking Ben Stone in such a half assed story!) No Adam Schiff reference/Steven Hill tribute unless I missed it. No references to any of the classic stories about feeling compelled to prosecute from either franchise. When Stone asked Barba if he felt guilty how can they not have him respond "I'm a Catholic I can feel guilty about anything?" So many dropped balls the Red Sox couldn't have done a better job of botching it up.

Overall this was a disaster. And it shows that that those making the ultimate decisions aren't willing to fully commit to dropping the melodrama and the ego trips and going back to basics. If it wasn't for the previews showing a nice old fashioned murder next episode and a lingering hope that Stone coming will be an opportunity for better angels to prevail ("you see Mariska we're putting Benson through the wringer by having her work with an ADA who doesn't realize her genius and insists she give him old fashioned evidence and build cases before bringing charges. You'll get to make your constipated face and fight the sexist power structure. It will be great!") I would probably drop the show again. How can you bring in McCoy AND Dworkin and have what may be the worst episode of the season? And how could anyone have read this script and thought that this would get lapsed viewers lured in by Sam Waterson watching again?

Edited February 9, 2018 by wknt3
fix typos and expanded a few thoughts

[dttruman]

52 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Raul signed on after Leap of Faith tanked on Broadway.

He probably saw the "Writing on the Wall".

Spoiler

 

[shapeshifter]

Why do writers feel obligated to turn long running characters into pod people in their departure episodes for the sake of drama? I mean, Barba could've done Son of Stone's job prosecuting some random guest star and still have had a crisis of conscience that made him leave the job. Oh well. Good luck to Esparza. As for Barba, I guess we hardly knew ya.

[skittl3862]

Lol. He killed a baby? At least Stabler shot a killer.

I guess it's better than "Is this because I'm a lesbian?", but not by that much.

Plot was lame. I didn't care about the parents. I really don't care about the new ADA. They spent almost as much time integrated him into the story as they did on Barba actually leaving.

Benson's repeated pleas in defense of Barba were so over the top and I feel only existed to give Mariska enough screentime to justify letting the plot not be about her for 5 minutes. Wish we could have seen the other characters say goodbye to him instead of just her.

Good riddance, SVU. Raul was the only thing that kept me around these last few years, but I couldn't even bring myself to watch this season. Only tuned in to see the last hurrah. Can't say I've missed it, and this episode gave me no reason to want to return.

[Vicky8675309]

If the baby was "brain dead" like they mentioned then he would have shortly had multi-organ failure and died soon anyway. I'm not sure the laws in NYC about children in this situation but in TX adults who are officially brain dead are dead and so ventilatory support measures, etc are withdrawn (usually after the situation is explained to family members/loved ones and they get time to say final good byes to their loved one (who is technically dead if they are brain dead).

 

I'm surprised ADA Stone didn't ask Barba, after Barba mentioned that the baby couldn't see, hear, talk, think, etc, if Barba would pull the plug on all patients in permanent vegetative status (long term coma patients with no hope of recovery). I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what Barba did but after that testimony I would have asked him about that situation.

 

Was the mother the same actress who is on Blue Bloods (works in Frank Regan's office)?

 

I can't stand how the writers ruined Barba's character. I use to adore him....I still love the actor but the character was ruined

 

I like the Strike Back actor (ADA Stone)

 

big eye roll at Olivia going into the hostage situation and "fixing" it.....she does everything and is like a superhero....ugh

 

I support adults right to choose euthanasia for themselves but I'm not sure about in situations pertaining to children. It would depend on the context/situation. However I didn't get the controversy here since they said the child was brain dead (or did I hear that incorrectly)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Seeing Jack reminded me how much I'll forever hate Jeff Zucker.

 

For sinking  the Mothership, ONE season shy of breaking Gunsmoke's record.

 

Look like they're trying to drag SVU across that finish line.

 

A milestone they don't deserve .

 

 

JMO.

[watcher1006]

I didn't like this episode for a number of reasons but I particularly resent this overaged and creatively degenerated show reaching back to the roots of the franchise - the original Law & Order - employing the iconic characters of Ben Stone and Jack McCoy to embellish the plot of Rafael Barba's exit episode. I will always love Sam Waterston, I didn't like the feeling I got watching him in this episode. And yes, I too hated what they did to the character of Rafael Barba.

[Willowsmom]

30 minutes ago, Vicky8675309 said:

Was the mother the same actress who is on Blue Bloods (works in Frank Regan's office)?

 

Yes it is.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Am I the only one from the Law and Order family that cares that Ben Stone is dead? I did not care about the episode, have not watched more than a few in 3 years, but came back for Jack. Olivia is a joke.  Never liked Barba or the way the actor portrayed him.  

Well, I hate that Ben Stone is dead. Very much so. But let's face it, we were never going to see him again. At least, not if Michael Moriarty were playing him. Too much water under the bridge.

But it was still nice, thinking he was still alive and around, you know?

[methadonna]

1 hour ago, skittl3862 said:

Lol. He killed a baby? At least Stabler shot a killer.

I guess it's better than "Is this because I'm a lesbian?", but not by that much..

 

I dunno; I think “Is this because I kinda-killed a baby?” might be worse.

 

The former, at least, reached episodic television’s pinnacle of WTFness with a mere single line (and her coming out didn’t require years of St. Benson’s whisper-inspiring her to accept The Rainbow of Beauty that is Love).

 

Is this Because I Kinda-Killed a Baby?, however, took 47 minutes from my life—if this show were at all clever, I might consider whether making its audience brain dead were its own meta-commentary on The Issues: at the least, despite the most ineffectually presented court case ever depicted on this franchise, it sure convinced me of both the show’s right to die and the justification, hell, righteousness, of whomever finally pulls the plug on it—and seemed to be playing it as “Is this because I suddenly started showing signs of severe mental illness?” in both Barba’s pre-Ima-kill-dis-baby scene and his manic I Can See Colors And Beauty And Pain (Because, You) ramblings to the prophet Olivia H. Christ at the end.

 

Plus, it’s bad enough Benson got sainted several years back; now she’s The fucking Giver?* Oh, hell no, Saint Rosemary of Whisperwhere; you ain’t that wise.

 

*Otoh, If Barba’s received all of her with-great-power-comes-great-responsibility wisdom and memories, can she die now and he become the Lieutenant/Field Detective/Hostage Negotiator/Patron Saint of Women and Children Everywhere for however long this show will continue airing such paradoxically brain-dead yet pain-inducing tripe? Kthnx.

Edited February 8, 2018 by methadonna

[Fiero425]

2 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Am I the only one from the Law and Order family that cares that Ben Stone is dead? I did not care about the episode, have not watched more than a few in 3 years, but came back for Jack. Olivia is a joke.  Never liked Barba or the way the actor portrayed him.  

I didn't even realize it until his picture was shown in the church! Another child of a profession that really didn't give a damn! It's not like these people are doctors, but they get so involved in their job, the family is neglected! ;-)

Edited February 8, 2018 by Fiero425

[Willowsmom]

lad they had something nice to say about Ben Stone.

An is it me or does this seem like the beginning of the end for SVU. As though they are wrapping up old business ?

[the-grey-lady]

Did Liv honestly say "Put the law aside for a minute," to an ADA prosecuting Barba? Um...

[Xeliou66]

Certainly the most interesting and shocking episode of the season. 

By far the best part was the return of Jack McCoy, he’s a legendary character and it was great to see him back in action as the DA. I loved all of his scenes, his eulogy of Ben Stone was perfect, and I hope he returns to SVU in the future some to talk with Peter Stone about cases. He’s a legend.

Peter Stone’s introduction was well done, the tribute to Ben Stone was perfect, McCoy and Peter’s words about him were very true to Ben Stone’s character, very stoic but caring as well, and I liked learning more about Stone and McCoy’s relationship and how Stone would talk about Peter and was proud of him even if he didn’t express his emotions much. It made sense how that McCoy would name Stone special prosecutor for the case as he wouldn’t give one of his own prosecutors the job of prosecuting another member of the Manhattan DA’s office because they would all know Barba and he needed someone from the outside who was objective and Stone was the perfect guy for the job. I also liked how McCoy said he was more like Ben than he thought, they are alike in a lot of ways with their devotion to upholding the rule of law and even their style, note how Stone called Barba “sir” while cross examining him, he did that on Chicago Justice a few times also, that was Ben’s trademark. 

Barba officially went off the deep end, if he hadn’t already. I have no idea what happened with him this season but he went nuts, and it was disappointing how his character got derailed. While I personally think it was the right thing to remove the baby from the ventilator, Barba should’ve known doing so would end his career and possibly land him in jail. He made bizarre, idiotic decisions the whole season and it reached the pinnacle tonight. I am almost glad he’s gone as I lost respect for him he had become so pathetic and maybe now we will get better legal stuff with Peter Stone. 

Dworkin was awesome as usual, he was the perfect choice to represent Barba as he’s never afraid to take a stand on controversial issues, his appearances are always great and his humor was much needed in this episode, I laughed out loud at his line about McAdoo benching Manning and then saying that this surprise “falls somewhere between Bucky Dent and Charlie Rose”. 

I did like that this episode was more balanced in its debate of a sensitive issue. I was on the side of Dworkin-Barba in that they should be allowed to remove the ventilator and end the suffering of the baby and the family, as the baby wasn’t alive and wouldn’t ever be truly alive, and I liked Dworkin’s comment about the government suppressing individuals freedoms, but I also thought Peter Stone made some very good points for his side of the case, so they did a good job in not being heavy handed and preachy. 

Benson was on the screen less than normal but angered me more than normal. She was a complete bitch to Stone for absolutely no reason, she came across as a foaming at the mouth rabid dog while Stone was completely calm and rational, I’m surprised he wasn’t laughing at Benson and thinking “how the fuck did this woman get put in charge of a detective squad”.

And of course Barba’s final scene was him worshipping at the altar of St Olivia. It was nauseating, Barba’s character was reduced to being nothing more than Benson’s puppet, and his final scene was nothing more than “I will worship you forever St Olivia, before your glory entered my life I was blind, thank you for allowing me to see and I will forever worship you almighty Benson”. I almost threw up. 

The whole Benson walks into a dangerous situation scene was stupid and unnecessary and should never have been included, it was just an attempt to let Benson chew up screen time in a rare episode that wasn’t entirely about her. 

I am disappointed that Barba got a bad ending for his character, reminded me a lot of Ed Green’s ending, both were charged with a crime and had their reputation shattered, although with Green at least he was exonerated completely for the crime he was charged with although people would view him with suspicion, whereas Barba was acquitted but he actually did what he was accused of and that was crossing the point of no return. Barba was right that he had to go, I get that McCoy was upset about losing Barba but Barba could never prosecute objectively again after sitting in the defendant’s chair and I think McCoy accepted that. I wonder what will happen to Barba, maybe he will make a guest appearance or at least something will be said about him in a future episode. 

And I’m angry that Barba didn’t get a goodbye scene with the rest of SVU, only St Olivia. At least he got a farewell scene with his boss McCoy but he should’ve gone to the SVU squadroom and said goodbye to Carisi, Fin and Rollins, and then if they had to have just a “Barson” scene then let them talk in her office for a minute. But no everything has to revolve around St Olivia. 

Once again Fin and Carisi are the voices of reason and once again they get squat. Can we please get more of them going forward? They are the show’s best characters.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Xeliou66

[Jaded]

I wonder if they named this episode after the Star Trek movie?

I didn't watch and haven't watched all season. I keep up by reading threads here. Having said that I figured this would be Raul's last episode.  Sad that his character was written out this way. He was the one person that always made me contemplate tuning back in. Until I found out that they had paired St. Olivia and Barba.

[pinguina]

I wasn't thrilled about how it ended for Barba.  I liked his character so much in the beginning.  But for the last two years, it has gotten to the point that he should just second chair and let Benson do the the prosecuting.  This year especially was so much meeting with Benson and practically asking her what she wanted him to do, then doing it :(    I especially disliked the final scene between Barba and Benson.  Uhhh, just no.

I did like that Jack McCoy was back.  I liked when he was talking to Benson and basically saying, "yeah, I don't blame Barba," then in the next breath introducing her to the person that would be prosecuting him.  I got the feeling that Benson thought that McCoy would listen to her and do what she said (as has been shown with Barba).

Plus, I'm sorry - I just can't picture an ADA going to the hospital where a mom is contemplating pulling the plug on her baby.  Then when she can't do it, he steps in.

Good by, Raul Esparza - I'm sorry that you didn't get a better send off.

*By the way, if I remember correctly, Ben Stone quit because he couldn't in good conscience proceed after a particularly difficult court case where he had to wrestle with his beliefs and conscience.

[WendyCR72]

3 minutes ago, pinguina said:

*By the way, if I remember correctly, Ben Stone quit because he couldn't in good conscience proceed after a particularly difficult court case where he had to wrestle with his beliefs and conscience.

Forget the name, but Allison Janney played the head of a baby food company. Apparently, her partner got money for the company through illegal means. I believe it was the Russian mob. Janney's character was honest and had no idea, but Ben made her testify about her partner or he would put her in jail for contempt or something.

She did...and we learned at the end that when she was moving or leaving town (been a while since I saw the episode), she was killed.

That's when Ben Stone had a final scene with Adam Schiff and resigned.

[Corvino]

Ooh, I knew most of you guys would hate this. It is absolutely true that Barba's suddenly getting emotionally over-involved with this particular suffering couple and putting his career and freedom on the line to help them and end their baby's suffering absolutely came out of nowhere. I liked the couple's different reactions to the dilemma, I liked that Olivia saved the husband's life by going in and spotting that it was a paintball gun, I was sentimentally fond of the parents rushing at each other and hugging after all the yelling, and I liked the improbable fact that there they both were spectating in the courtroom, together and free, while only Barba was on trial. And I cared about the poor baby's plight and cheered that its pain was ended. But boy was that unnecessary except for plot purposes.  Neither the parents nor Barba had to do anything to hasten its death; it was going to die soon, and if it didn't have brain activity one presumes it wasn't suffering in any sense we can understand. An ocean of pain may have existed inside the baby's head, but without consciousness there was no one there to assess or feel the pain.

It certainly was a freshly cobbled-up and deeply just-dragged-in excuse to have him depart ("I have to move on"). But you realize the Law and Order franchise has never been about consistent characterization for the regulars. It's primarily about the Case Of The Week, with highly coloured emotional extremes in the one-off characters involved in the case, and that's why I like it. Well, maybe we do get a sense of a through-line for some people because of the quality of the actors-- we all know what kind of person Olivia is, and one has a sense of who Fin and Rollins and Carisi are, and many in the past. But their opinions change like the wind. Here last week Amanda was mouthing some the-right-has-a-point ideas, and this week she's the mouthpiece of the (leftist, on the whole) right to die. Someone last week complained that if Jack McCoy came back he'd be all leftist and progressive, and that showed sometimes on the Mothership, but I remember (with displeasure) the episode where he convicted a sympathetic defendant who'd been on the run for decades after being peripherally involved in a Weatherman-type murder, and his last line was to contemptuously remark that when her prison term was up "maybe the Sixties will be over by then." IMHO, opinions and reactions by regulars on this show are very largely situational, for the convenience of the story. I am tolerant of this. But it certainly was a stretch to have Barba do this for strangers. The other time he got personally involved in life or death, it was kind of in the opposite direction-- wanting his grandmother to go to a nursing home instead of staying in her apartment and dying sooner the way she wanted to. Yep, their convictions are situational and episode-specific.

[RafaelBarbas]

Thinking about this episode, I just realized something AWFUL.

The baby’s father isn’t at the hospital when Barba comes to see the mother and ultimately pulls the plug.

This means that for the rest of his life, the father is going to have so, so much guilt. “If I was there, would that man have murdered my child?”

Barba not only took away the father’s choice on his child’s life, he not only went against his wishes, he took away the father’s chance to say goodbye to his child and get closure. He took away the father’s chance to hold his son’s hand as he died.

Just… holy shit, you guys. I love Barba. But in this case… he honestly deserve to go to jail for what he did. If not for murder, it should have at least been assault and battery. (Of course, them keeping Barba in character and having him do no such thing would have been better still, but…)

[JyDanzig]

1 hour ago, pinguina said:

*By the way, if I remember correctly, Ben Stone quit because he couldn't in good conscience proceed after a particularly difficult court case where he had to wrestle with his beliefs and conscience.

Yep.  Also, THIS show wrote out McCoy!  After L&O Classic ended, there were a ton of SVU episodes in which they referenced a "new DA" we know nothing about, but whatever "new" concerns they had would conveniently be at odds with whatever our heroes wanted, thus providing an extremely lazy plot device to pad out episodes that needed a few more story beats.

This is starting to feel a bit like a "Black Mirror" episode.  Ben Stone resigned, yet apparently hung out in his office for decades thereafter following his son's career.  McCoy was replaced, yet still wanders the halls telling people not to beat themselves up about that baby they killed.  Cabot is sent away to witness protection forever, until she's inexplicably managing an unruly brood of sexy junior ADA's.  Obviously, the DA's office itself is somehow cloning/copying the people that work there.  The original person may move on, but their ghostly double will always remain...

Edited February 8, 2018 by JyDanzig

[RedheadZombie]

So what happens when Drew's father kills Barba?  

7 hours ago, RafaelBarbas said:

I am furious at this episode so far. Barba would never. Ever!

The only thing I'm genuinely excited for is seeing how this board will twist logic to say Olivia made Rafael do it.

Barba would have been all over an "arrogant" doctor who euthanized a patient.  And if the baby was brain dead, his suffering was minimal.  The parents were indeed suffering.  But the parents couldn't come to consensus, so it should have been considered murder.  

I'm assuming Barba will be understanding when Drew's dad comes for revenge.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

Yep.  Also, THIS show wrote out McCoy!  After L&O Classic ended, there were a ton of SVU episodes in which they referenced a "new DA" we know nothing about, but whatever "new" concerns they had would conveniently be at odds with whatever our heroes wanted, thus providing an extremely lazy plot device to pad out episodes that needed a few more story beats.

This is starting to feel a bit like a "Black Mirror" episode.  Ben Stone resigned, yet apparently hung out in his office for decades thereafter following his son's career.  McCoy was replaced, yet still wanders the halls telling people not to beat themselves up about that baby they killed.  Cabot is sent away to witness protection forever, until she's inexplicably managing an unruly brood of sexy junior ADA's.  Obviously, the DA's office itself is somehow cloning/copying the people that work there.  The original person may move on, but their ghostly double will always remain...

I guarantee McCoy decided to make another run for office at some point after “the new DA” was mentioned in season 13, maybe in the wake of the escort ring disaster at the start of season 14 when so many DA’s resigned. The DA might have resigned then and McCoy won the next election to fill his seat or McCoy might have had issues with the new DA’s style and decided to run against him and won. It’s easy to see how Jack McCoy is DA again despite being out of office for a little while, that isn’t a plot hole.

The timeline with Stone is a little off, as I don’t think Peter would’ve been a prosecutor yet when Stone was in the DA’s office, he would’ve still been in his baseball playing days, but I think the whole point of that discussion was that Stone followed his son’s career closely and was proud of him even if he didn’t show his emotions much. I liked the scene as it shed more light on Stone and McCoy’s relationship, we knew they knew each other but it was nice to get more light on that. 

I have to say, I wish we had gotten a mention of the great Adam Schiff, maybe just McCoy telling Peter that the last time he saw Ben was at Schiff’s funeral and how much they both admired Adam. 

[ChristiKRN]

I am honestly glad that Raul Esparza chose to leave the show.  Barba has almost become unrecognizable in the last 2 seasons. I understand characters evolve , just like people do in real life, but he went from being the intelligent, impartial and sarcastic lawyer we loved to a wimpy and easily-influenced shadow of his former awesomeness. Even if he felt the baby should have been allowed to die, the old Barba would never have turned the bipap off himself.  And he did it because he had regrets about not terminally extubating his dad 7 years prior? Ridiculous. I usually enjoy an emotional send-off of a character, but that final scene between Benson and Barba was just too much.  They could have gone back to the BX9 threatening Barba storyline from a couple of years ago and it would have been more impactful than this episode.  Barba and Raul Esparza deserved so much better. 

[Josette]

Quote

I wonder if they named this episode after the Star Trek movie?

I assume they took it from Shakespeare.  The same for the Star Trek movie.

“Who would fardels bear,
To groan and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action."

 

Basically, if we think too much about the consequences, we might be too afraid to do what needs to be done.

 

However, I think Barba should not have interfered.  The court was going to appoint someone to advocate for the baby. I know the mother whined about how everything would be dragged out and her baby was suffering, but I still think Barba was way out of line.  I was disappointed in him. And disgusted by everything Olivia Benson.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Well, I hate that Ben Stone is dead. Very much so. But let's face it, we were never going to see him again. At least, not if Michael Moriarty were playing him. Too much water under the bridge.

But it was still nice, thinking he was still alive and around, you know?

Am I the only one who wanted to see Shambala Green at the funeral?  It also got me questioning whether Adam Schiff was still alive in the L&O universe.  I know Steven Hill passed away, but wasn't sure about the character.       

[wknt3]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:00 PM, dttruman said:

I can't believe Michael Chernuchin wrote this. Everything in this was cut back so much to make room for Benson's ridiculous heroic effort to walk in unarmed to talk with the father and her impassioned speeches to Stone, McCoy, and her Rafa.

I certainly can believe he wrote this. The eulogy  at the beginning was head and shoulders above anything we saw last season and showed a great understanding of the characters of Stone and McCoy. The writing for Dworkin was solid and the trial scenes were well done. Or as well done as they could be given the time constraints. Somebody pointed out on screen that Benson was being an idiot by marching in to a hostage situation loudly and directly. I think it obvious he is still a great writer, but he has been given a remit by Dick Wolf and NBC to try to improve things while also keeping Benson and her personal life front and center and catering to her conception of the character and giving her creative input. As far as the biggest problem with the script he could be following the grand franchise tradition of trashing characters you are writing off in an attempt to be shocking or for petty personal reasons (perhaps Esparza pushed back on the original plan to have Barba working for Stone?) or to try to set a new course which will promptly be undone by the next showrunner by just ignoring what hapened and unfiring them. Or this could be coming from another of TPTB, It's unfortunate as he certainly does have the chops to do it right - have Barba volunteer as the baby's legal guardian, condtion deteriorates and mom/dad pulls the plug, DA's office is conflicted because of Barba's involvement and brings in Stone, Barba brings in Dworkin, McCoy fires Barba for acting as an advocate for the parents instead of for the people of the State of New York, everything else pretty much the same. All that is lost is the cheap shock of completely trashing Barba's character and ruining McCoy's return by having him sympathize with a DA taking the law into his own hands.
 

On 2/8/2018 at 1:01 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Well, I hate that Ben Stone is dead. Very much so. But let's face it, we were never going to see him again. At least, not if Michael Moriarty were playing him. Too much water under the bridge.

Not so much the water under the bridge as the raging inferno on top of it...

 

On 2/8/2018 at 2:45 AM, Corvino said:

It certainly was a freshly cobbled-up and deeply just-dragged-in excuse to have him depart ("I have to move on"). But you realize the Law and Order franchise has never been about consistent characterization for the regulars. It's primarily about the Case Of The Week, with highly coloured emotional extremes in the one-off characters involved in the case, and that's why I like it. Well, maybe we do get a sense of a through-line for some people because of the quality of the actors-- we all know what kind of person Olivia is, and one has a sense of who Fin and Rollins and Carisi are, and many in the past. But their opinions change like the wind. Here last week Amanda was mouthing some the-right-has-a-point ideas, and this week she's the mouthpiece of the (leftist, on the whole) right to die. Someone last week complained that if Jack McCoy came back he'd be all leftist and progressive, and that showed sometimes on the Mothership, but I remember (with displeasure) the episode where he convicted a sympathetic defendant who'd been on the run for decades after being peripherally involved in a Weatherman-type murder, and his last line was to contemptuously remark that when her prison term was up "maybe the Sixties will be over by then." IMHO, opinions and reactions by regulars on this show are very largely situational, for the convenience of the story. I am tolerant of this. But it certainly was a stretch to have Barba do this for strangers. The other time he got personally involved in life or death, it was kind of in the opposite direction-- wanting his grandmother to go to a nursing home instead of staying in her apartment and dying sooner the way she wanted to. Yep, their convictions are situational and episode-specific.

Respectfully disagree. That is certainly true of the current SVU, but at L&O's best there was consistent characterization. In fact it was often more subtle and nuanced than most dramas since the focus was indeed on the COTW, but it was there. Sometimes it was surprising, but almost always that was because of specific circumstances affecting them in specific ways (even if was obviously written that way to get them to advocate the other side of an issue from another character ) which is completely different from changing just because.

Edited February 10, 2018 by wknt3
fix typos and clean up phrasing

[ForeverAlone]

I think I will just put this episode out of my canon mindset. I will just imagine that Rafael got an amazing job offer he couldn't resist. I'll pretend this show didn't devolve Rafael's character to this absolute low point where he is helping a baby that is not his, die. If the mother wanted him to die, she should have done it herself. It just felt so out of character for Rafael to actually pull the baby's plug. I get that he wrestled with guilt over the obligation to prosecute the father in some sense (even if it was just to offer probation), and I can get why he would empathize with the mother's pain. But I just can't wrap my head around him telling the mother to leave the room and him making the decision himself to kill that baby. Nope. I get shades of gray and all that, but I just can't see how Rafael would make that leap for a baby he didn't even know.

And I will imagine that cringe worthy final conversation between Rafael and Olivia didn't happen. It is almost embarrassing how much the writers destroyed Rafael's character to the point where he is worshiping at the altar of St. Olivia. I mean, he literally said he became her at the end. At least he chose to move on (and I imagine he'll do something good with his life). The mandate to make her the center of all things and a virtual infallible goddess is the main reason this show is a shadow of itself at its greatest, in my opinion.

That said, I'll probably continue to watch, and at least I can rest assured there won't be anymore Barson scenes where I want to throw something at the TV. I liked the character of Peter Stone on Chicago Justice, and I'll probably like him here. Even though I highly disagree with the writing that forced Rafael to do what he did, I agree that he should have been prosecuted (though if Peter really did want to convict Barba, he probably overcharged him with second degree murder and not something lesser). I like his objectivity, and I dearly hope HIS character isn't watered down to worship Olivia. 

The rest of the team was sadly underused, and none of them even got to send Rafael off. Of course, none of the other character relationships matter, except the relationship they have with Olivia. *sighs*

Edited February 8, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[shapeshifter]

During the final Barba-Benson dialogue, did anyone else get a Han-Solo-Princess-Leia-I-love-you-I-know flashback?

Quote

Barba [after black-and-white-to-colors-blah-cringe-blah speech]: You've opened my heart.
Liv: And?
Barba: I've got to move on.

I think I may have laughed a little.

[allonsyalice]

 I'm so angry that this is how they chose to send Raúl off. I'm gonna go watch 25 Acts and pretend none of this happened. 

[Gigi43]

Another thing I didn't like about the episode was the fact they brought abortion into the case. There was a lot going on already and then all of a sudden, hey, turns out the mother didn't abort when she knew there was a chance of the baby having that and the father did. Life and people are complicated, situations like that probably do happen but this was a jam packed episode and bringing that up on top of everything was SVU once again wanting to bring up too many topics to really give them proper attention. It felt like a cheap way to dirty up the father (for lack of a better word) so any full on right-to-life people wouldn't see him as a total saint. Oh look, he wanted an abortion first! The mom feels really guilty she "chose life" and now caused pain. It wasn't needed at all.

 

There's a difference between showing different view points and trying to manipulate different groups.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Gigi43

[Lebanna]

This episode is going alongside the final episode of Medium as something I spoiled myself for first and now will never watch.

For me, there are some shows and characters that don't get the ending they deserve, and actually seeing that ending would permanently ruin all that I loved about them forever. That's the wonderful thing about fiction - you can just decide to ignore the bits you don't like.

I adored original snarky, brilliant Barba, but while Raúl Esparza's performance has always been fantastic in every scene, the writing for the character has degenerated into utter pap. I've tried to justify it, but in my heart of hearts I knew we would never see that great, sparky lawyer again.

My last hope was that bringing back the wonderful McCoy (my other favorite L&O lawyer, along with Cabot) would bring back some elements of Barba that we had been missing. How could they not let the two of them go crazy with the law books and fast talk and come up with the most fantastically off the wall case ever? 

But when I saw the trailer with Barba almost crying in the dock, I knew it was all over, and to see that play out would be pointless. Goodbye Barba, I'll just remember the character how  he was, back when he was awesome.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Lebanna

[ForeverAlone]

35 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

During the final Barba-Benson dialogue, did anyone else get a Han-Solo-Princess-Leia-I-love-you-I-know flashback?

I think I may have laughed a little.

I laughed with relief at that point. At least the final scene wasn't in her bed or something. :) :) :)