S06.E12: All For Nothing

[bmoore4026]

Well, up yours, show, for killing off my favorite character after Felicity.

[MissL]

Well. Still hate the noobs and all their passive aggressive bitchiness? Really Rene? PTSD? How about Oliver might still go to JAIL because of you HOSS?! Or did you forget that plot line like the show seems to have for now?

 

heh. Felicity said frack. Would totally expect my girl to be a BAttlestar Galactica fan.

Thats all I got. 

[Chaser]

Oliver running his hands over Felicitys back during that hug gave me Olicity sex scene flashbacks. They were more enjoyable then the ones we got in this episode.

[KenyaJ]

3 minutes ago, MissL said:

heh. Felicity said frack. Would totally expect my girl to be a BAttlestar Galactica fan.

LOL. She said it in 301 too, when Ray showed up to make his pitch for Queen Consolidated.

[UNOSEZ]

Rene was annoying with his remarks.. But the other two this week were fine.. Unless everyine posting wanted dinah to leave Vince for dead??...  Like I don't see how that woulda been viable.. Maybe Ollie and dig coulda taken Curtis.. Cuz they wouldn't take rene.. And you can't have dinah running off by herself ... A man she kinda got killed.. A man she loves is being tortured what else should she do??.. It was a no win situation that the bad guys put them in.. Unless you think any of the dc heroes would willingly leave their significant other to be tortured.. So that they might find a bomb

[Guest]

I feel like it's slightly different because Vigilante could heal himself, as proven by him being totally fine when Dinah got there. 

[Lantern7]

I forgot to ask: Quentin knows that Sara is alive, right? Granted, given the nature of her "work" (not being sarcastic; I don't know if time traveling is a job), it might be a long time before he would find out that she died, if she died. But at least she's out there, right? And didn't she spend the first episode of LoT working at a Staples-like place? Did she at least keep in touch? Yeah, I agree that Quentin needs more to do than obsessing on Laurel-2 and bonding with Thea.

Wouldn't it be funny if Vince did live, and Oliver is keeping him off the board on purpose? Kinda like Jim Gordon in The Dark Knight. Only problem is that Ollie would be responsible for all the people Dinah kills, as well as the potential death of Dinah herself. Then again, it might be funny if we wind up with a fourth Black Canary next season.

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I feel like it's slightly different because Vigilante could heal himself, as proven by him being totally fine when Dinah got there. 

Yeah - no one suggested leaving him to die. They suggested making a guy whose wounds self-heal the second priority since he could hang out (unpleasant though it may be) until they all got the bomb that was threatening the whole city. 

It’s not even like anyone was asking her to choose, just asking her to wait. 

[insomniadreams88]

I wonder if Vince would’ve ended up dead if Dinah hadn’t gone after him. What if the newbies had gone with Oliver and Diggle? No distraction means Vince wouldn’t have escaped that room, right? (Presumably, since he hadn’t yet.) Do we think Cayden would have had BS kill him there or do we think he wanted it done in front of Dinah and therefore maybe Vince would still be alive? Or there would at least be the possibility that he’d still be alive?

[tennisgurl]

If NTA had just joined OTA in finding the bombs, they probably could have gotten the bombs, and THEN gone after Vince. Then they could have stopped Caydens reign of terror, and Vince would have probably been fine. He had healing powers, so he could have lasted awhile. Then the whole team could have gone to get him, and he and Dina wouldn't have been alone when they got blasted, and they all probably could have gotten away.  Hell, Vince probably would have escaped on his own if he wasn't distracted by Dina showing up. Oliver and the rest of OTA have been at this for a LONG time, shouldn't have at least acknowledged their superior experience in planning missions?

But NO, NTA had to be contrary just for the sake of spiting OTA. And now Vince died a nasty death and the city is still in trouble. *sarcastic slow clap*

[EmilyBettFan]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

So.. Like every week ppl are gonna find new ways to bitch abt NTA... I get it.. You don't like them.. But besides rene who was pissy again this week.. They seemed fine.. Curtis was talking abt the business and his dating life.. He and Felicity seem to be on decent enuff terms.. And dinah had her Vince stuff which all made sense.. Don't see what they did this week that needs complaining abt

I guess you wouldn't see the little jabs they keep saying towards OTA. You like them that's fine. But you can't tell people what to like and really they have a lot to complain about, because this NO team Arrow sucks major balls.

[quarks]

And Arrow's mediocre mid-season hits again!

On the bright side, the multiple set problems did distract me from all of the terrible decision making in this episode.  So it wasn't all bad, guys!

Good things:

1. Since I have absolutely nothing nice to say about most of the set decoration for this episode, er, those green lit hallways were very nice and on theme.  Also Dinah has done a very nice job of cleaning up her house to the point where you'd almost never guess that a team of time travelers has used it and that we've seen one of her chairs before and oh, right, I'm in the Good Things part. 

2. Felicity's friend is back! And an honorary member of Team Arrow with full bathroom privileges, I'm guessing.  Yay!  

3. Finally, six seasons in, someone shows up to try to point out to Team Arrow and Associates that no, you cannot just take money out of nowhere. You go, city accountant, you go. On a related note, who knew, back in season one, that an accountant would be one of the most sensible and heroic people in this episode?

4. The cute Felicity/Oliver scene at the beginning of the episode. I suspect - just suspect - that they aren't going to get that honeymoon until May, though.

5. Character growth, thy name is Oliver Queen. HE LET DINAH MAKE HER OWN TERRIBLE DECISIONS, EVERYONE. Ok, yes, this went badly, but I'm counting this as character growth on Oliver's part. And then he went to her immediately afterwards to give her updated intel and to ensure that she knew Vince's death wasn't a waste, which was nice of him, considering.

6. Is Arrow back to one of its many episode long mysteries, in this case, Who Planted the Evidence Against Oliver Queen? I think it is! Let's all hope this turns out better than the infamous Who Killed Sara plot and turns out to be more like What's Up With This Damn Notebook?

7. The motorcycle stunts are back, everyone! YAY!

8. I can't believe I'm typing this, but this was a decent episode for Katie Cassidy/Black Siren. Plus, her hair was on point throughout.

9. Also on point: Felicity's red dress. I still question her choices in shoes but that dress was great.

10. Speaking of Felicity, her saving Vince (temporarily) through tech speak was a great moment. Hilarious and in character.

11. And speaking of Vince - strong episode for him tonight. Kinda a pity he ended up dead at the end of it, but hey. This is Arrow. That death might not last.

12. The scene transitions in this episode were kinda cool. 

Questionable things:

1. Love this "it's been exactly seven days since our last episode" bit but where on earth or alternate earths did Star City come up with $70 million? This is the same city that was smushed six years ago, and then five years ago, and then three years ago, and then two years ago, and the same city that's had problems attracting business investors. 

2. Though, that said, uh, Thea? Didn't you inherit millions from Malcolm? Where did that money go? Can't you use it rather than badgering accountants?

Although, come to think of it, she was in a coma for awhile there and we really don't know if Star City pays for decent health insurance for its employees. Probably not if they've been storing $70 million in a pay off terrorists fund. Never mind, Thea. 

3. Why, knowing what happens to cops on this show, and knowing that they are under a city wide threat, is ANYONE wearing a jacket brightly labeled SCPD for a semi-secret meeting?

4. Is Aruba the only Caribbean island in the Arrowverse? Why doesn't anyone ever mention, say, Barbados? Or the Bahamas? I feel like Team Arrow would really like the Bahamas. 

5. Team Not Arrow: "Sure, we should pass up important intel that could potentially get someone killed."

Team Arrow: (nearly kills Vigilante because they don't know he's a double agent.)

Team Not Arrow: We could learn something about the importance of telling Oliver Important Things. Or, you know, not.

6. How did Quentin get the video of Laurel saving people back in season four? Did he buy the DVDs from Amazon?  Because that shot? NOT EXACTLY A TYPICAL SECURITY CAMERA SHOT.

7. Speaking of Quentin: So, you find out that a metahuman who enjoys killing people, and who can kill you with a single scream, is following you around. Do you a) immediately tell Team Arrow so you can get some protection and so they can be alerted that said metahuman is just casually walking around the city, which could be a minor threat, or b) decide that anyone whose hair looks that good deserves to be shown video and pictures of herself in other hair cuts? 

Uh-huh.

8. Still speaking of Quentin - has anyone informed him that Oliver killed Evil Oliver just a few weeks ago, and that on another Earth, Quentin is a Nazi, suggesting that appearances really don't count for all that much?

9. Has Singh now made more appearances on Arrow than Iris? I feel that he has. This is at least his second, right? Or third?

10. Does the Arrow Cave have little bedrooms for guests? I know Oliver was bunking down there for awhile, but what about people like Alina? And what are the shower facilities like? Do they have a hot tub to soothe the aches after a fight? I feel they should have a hot tub. With green towels.

11. Did no one have time to discuss prop weights? Because one moment, Dinah is unable to move beneath a styrofoam beam, and the next moment, Curtis and Rene, neither one of whom have superstrength, are lifting said beam as if it was made of styrofoam. Which of course it was (or some other form of plastic) but it was a bit odd.

Bad things:

1. Arrow, making us endure flashbacks again so you can use Flash's sets? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I swear. Every. single. time. I think these shows can reach new lows in sets they surprise me.

And then the floor problems in the rest of the episode, although if I get into that I might cry so I won't.

2. The flashbacks to Central City were a problem not just because of the huge issues with the sets and floors (although that was a problem) or the fact that those seemed like the sort of people who would be hanging out in Hub City or Star City, based on what we've seen so far (although that was also a problem) but because they served as a constant reminder that Star City exists in the same universe/country as the Flash. That's been an issue for a long time, admittedly, but as bad as this is during the season finales, it's even worse in an episode like this, when we find out that Oliver and Thea have paid $70 million to a terrorist and are trusting a somewhat untrustworthy guy to break into Cayden James' computers even though they know a teleporter with computer skills who could do this, and later when we have various people threatened by a bomb who could be easily saved by the combined eff"you know you'd be going after Felicity/Lila," comment. Er. We've been watching this show for 5 1/2 seasons now, which is why we know Oliver and Diggle wouldn't. In fact, for the most part they haven't. rts of Barry (rushing them away), Cisco (teleporting them away), and Ralph (stretching over them and annoying the villains so much that the villains run away) or even Killer Frost (freezing the bomb). I can't even use the "Barry is in jail" excuse since we just saw Barry run from the jail to China, carrying someone.

The only way to deal with this ongoing issue is to a) try to limit the references to Central City, which was definitely not done here, or b) keep the threats to the immediate sort where no one has time to call Team Flash, which was again, not done here, or c) keep the threats down to a level where calling in a metahuman isn't necessary - i.e., something lower than a threat to destroy the entire city.

In other words, Arrow, you would have been much better off keeping everything in the present.  Especially since the main reason for Dinah to be upset and not thinking is her current relationship with Vince, not something that happened five years ago.

3. The very odd "you know you'd be going after Felicity/Lila" from Dinah - odd because we've been watching this show for six seasons now, which means that we know that Oliver and Diggle wouldn't. Sure, they will and have saved Felicity/Lila if the rest of the city isn't under threat.  But one of the main twists of this show involved Oliver deliberately risking Felicity's life in order to take down Slade. The very next season, Felicity was heavily criticized by fans for even suggesting that Ray abandon his attempt to save the city in order to save Oliver. When Ray said he couldn't, Felicity jumped into the ATOM suit and saved Oliver herself. In pure Arrow fashion, this was absolutely ludicrous, but no one, even Felicity, criticized Ray for choosing the city instead of Oliver. (Indeed, three years later, some fans are still mad at Felicity for choosing to save Oliver instead of helping Ray.)  When Oliver was faced with a choice of turning over Thea or letting the League continue to kill off Starling City people, he chose to sacrifice himself.  And these are just three of many examples. 

For that matter, even Flash, with its myriad ethical/misogynistic problems, had a recent scene with Iris and Harry noting that sometimes, yes, you do have to choose who to save - and that person might not be your partner. No one, other than Iris, blamed her for trying to save Caitlin instead of Barry - even Barry. Similar things have played out over on Legends. 

It's arguable, I suppose, that Dinah doesn't know this history and context. But surely Oliver does - and yet the scene framed him as agreeing with Dinah that in a similar situation, he would free Felicity even though it's an obvious trap and many people could get killed.

Followed by...

4. "We'll save Vince. You guys save the city."

Part of the problem here was the line delivery. In fact, this started out well and almost worked if you ignored the obvious "IT'S A TRAP DUMMIES" thing going on, with Dinah rushing off to save her family and Curtis and Rene announcing that they are her family too. 

However, for whatever reason, the line reading that the actor/director/editor went for was the one suggesting that Rene felt that Oliver, by respecting Vince's wishes and trying to save the city was doing the wrong thing. Add in that Vince has the ability to heal immediately, and that Oliver, more than anyone in that room, is fully aware of what Anatoly can/cannot do when torturing someone, and thus had some basis for his statement - and yeah, Oliver was quite definitely making the right choice there. 

As with so many of Arrow's scenes, this is one that could have been saved with just a touch of tweaking - just changing the line to "Don't worry about us - go save the city" or "The city needs you guys" would have helped. But framing this as Team Not Arrow angry at Oliver for choosing not to save Vince - a metahuman who willingly agreed to infiltrate Cayden James' team did Team Not Arrow no favors.

5. Team Not Arrow. Let's try to overlook the fact that their failure to tell Team Arrow about their inside man almost got Vince killed, and instead, focus on the fact that they walked into an obvious trap - in part because they refused to listen to Oliver and Diggle, the strategic experts. Grr.

6. Dinah, Dinah. I get that you are angry and upset. However. Vince's death is mostly on Black Siren, who did the actual killing; Cayden James, who ordered the actual killing; Vince, who chose to go undercover instead of staying home and marathoning Game of Thrones (always an option, aspiring vigilantes) and Team New Arrow, for rushing into an obvious trap and assuming that a guy getting tortured would have the ability to turn on his comm links.

And now, Laurel!

I didn't think I would ever bring this category back, but here we are, as flashbacks of Laurel, courtesy of Quentin, returned to Arrow:

Number of ways Laurel failed as a vigilante and human being: Just one, but it's a biggie:  1) failing through her example to inspire Black Siren to turn to the Forces of Good.  Failing to the point of making Black Siren want to destroy a lot of props.

In Laurel's defense, I will say that Black Siren can be forgiven, this episode, for deciding to stay with Team Competent People Who Don't Walk Into Obvious Traps. And I was all for Black Siren destroying as much of this episode's set direction as possible. Still, it's remarkable that even in an episode where she is dead, Laurel still managed to fail. And after the lovely if wordless tribute to her in last week's episode, too.

To sum up:

"What do we do?" Team Not Arrow asks.

"STOP MAKING TERRIBLE DECISIONS," I answer. "AND HAVE A LONG TALK WITH THE SET DECORATORS FOR THIS EPISODE."

[statsgirl]

When NTA returned to the Arrow lair, they were pretty nasty and sarcastic. Felicity tried to lighten the mood with a joke but they weren't having any of it. They were the ones who contacted OTA and invited them into their lair so I don't understand why they were on their high horse.

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

More than anything I'm curious what the show has planned for Alena.  They really didn't need to bring her in.  They could have just let Felicity do what she did.  Plus they made that comment about someone had to have been close to Cayden James to know how he'd react to his son dying.  I rejected the idea ALena was in cahoots with James, but is it actually possible she's pulling his strings??  If not, why is she on the show?

They seem to have come up with a bit of money for more  actors. Last week they had Venus Terza as the doctor for a thirty second scene.  This week they got Patrick S. to play Captain Singh in one short scene, and not only Steve Bacic back for three scenes but his group of villains too. And the woman from another gang who told them about the cop who is undercover with them. So maybe they got money for Kacey Rohl too and she's not the season's Big Bad.

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Am I the only one who feels like we've seen nothing to suggest that the newbies even care a little bit about Star City? They choose going to get Vince over a bomb threatening the entire city (including Vince, so, you know). They took 5 weeks off to pout/whine, then took a week to set up their lair and then only acted when Vince contacted them and then followed up on his info. 

If the writers are planning on redeeming Rene or Curtis again, they've really overshot the mark in how they're writing the right now.  I understand that Dinah was frantic to save Vince but Rene and Curtis should have looked at the bigger picture.

They're True Believers, thinking that their Equality Fraternity is the most important thing and must be adhered to above all else.  Not realizing their own hypocrisy and poor judgement.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

to continue watching poor Paul Blackthorne and Willa Holland do their best with the material they got, as Quentin continues his quest to "save Laurel", only for Thea to have to be the to tell him "Dude, she totally just screamed Vince's brains out!"  This whole thing is stupid. 

This is probably my biggest regret about the way the show is currently going. I thought WH was the weakest link back in season one, but either she has really grown as an actress in the interim, or she got better material (or both) but by the end of season 2 and onwards, she became one of the strongest performers and characters on the show. PB has always been solid. But for some reason, the two of them get continually smaller parts and less challenging (and interesting) material. 

Meanwhile, we have Wild Dog "Every Other Word Is Hoss" getting to play his eternally pissy asides, Mr. Terrific "I'm Not So Bad When I'm Not Stuck With These Other Guys," and, much to my chagrin Black Canary "I Actually Liked You At First, But Now All You Do Is Play In The Little Miss Angry Range Either Due To Actor Choice Or Writing Or Both" Black Canary. Honestly, couldn't they have killed off those three and had it make Vince either decide killing is wrong join up with Team Arrow or have him keep to his vigilante ways and decide to team up long enough to kill the bad guy? Ugh. 

Of course Cayden and Black Siren decided to kill Vince and just walk away and leave Dinah alive. Makes perfect sense.

Blah.

(... if they bring Deadshot back it will be all worth it, though.)

Edited February 2, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Cthulhudrew]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

Questionable things:

1. Love this "it's been exactly seven days since our last episode" bit but where on earth or alternate earths did Star City come up with $70 million? This is the same city that was smushed six years ago, and then five years ago, and then three years ago, and then two years ago, and the same city that's had problems attracting business investors. 

I can almost imagine that in the Arrow-verse, FEMA reimburses for Villains Holding City Hostage costs. Hopefully Star City has adequate documentation to support it, or else they're in for trouble with the IRS in a few years when they get around to auditing it. lol

(Maybe that's going to be the surprise twist this season; "Team Arrow Saves Star City from Cayden James, only to face an even more dire threat- the Internal Revenue Service!!!!")

Edited February 2, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[insomniadreams88]

Other things that bothered me:

Curtis’ comment about Felicity and Alena’s reaction to finding the bomb not being appropriate or whatever he said (don’t feel like rewatching now). Really, Curtis? I don’t think I told him to shut up for that in the live thread, so I’ll say it here - shut up, Curtis. 

Dinah saying they put Vince in the position he was in once she realized he was caught. He chose to go undercover. What exactly was he going to do, never actually do something to try to stop Cayden that could get him caught? Just keep hanging out undercover? He chose to go in. They didn’t force him. 

The fact that I feel like Vince treated Felicity with more respect in one single exchange - asking about the risks of the mission - than Rene, one of her former teammates, does/has. (That could also be because I really can’t stand Rene’s attitude.)

[UNOSEZ]

20 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I guess you wouldn't see the little jabs they keep saying towards OTA. You like them that's fine. But you can't tell people what to like and really they have a lot to complain about, because this NO team Arrow sucks major balls.

But for a second week most of the Petty and snark csme from rene.. Last week dinah and Curtis were already less annoying abt being pissed at ota and this week nothing until the end when dinah was just broken.. I keep seeing posts hypothesizing that Vince woulda been ok and there's just no way to know.. We could look at any decision that's been made on the show and pick it apart.. Maybe if Oliver did this.. Such and such would be alive.. Or if diggle did that prime Laurel is alive.. It's too sloppy to go guessing.. In this particular episode with what was happening dinah had to try and save Vince.. Which is why Oliver didn't say anything.. Because she was right if Felicity was being tortured.. He'd go to stop that and have faith in whoever he left behind.. Or have them save her and he does the other thing.. Point being he wasn't going to stop dinah.. Or even try.. Now like I said before they coulda had Curtis go with them.. As we all know Oliver wasn't asking rene.. And rene wasn't offering and honestly you can't have dinah go in alone.. When it comes to liking or disliking the newbies.. For the most part I've tolerated them.. At times Rene has been ok.. The hoss thing always annoyed me.. Dinah has been a lil more than meh and Curtis was actually pretty frustrating as felicity's black gay best friend/olicity cheerleader... In fact I've enjoyed a more confident( inching towards cocky)  less verbal diarrhea version of Curtis... Rene is still annoying and while I'm not tryna beat him up for choosing his babygirl his attitude is overboard and dinah is still pretty meh and if more of her hurt and anger was towards diggle I'd understand more as they were close... But the show hasn't had them really talk since he didn't believe she couldn't be the mole... 

It's only because the hate for them has been so overwhelming that I've been trying to offer up at least a reasoning behind their anger distrust hurt whatever.. Not absolving them.. And in fact saying most of this is on them.. Well really rene.. And these last two weeks dinah and curtis really haven't been so horrible.. And this week they didn't really fo anything anti-OTA at all

[statsgirl]

27 minutes ago, quarks said:

10. Does the Arrow Cave have little bedrooms for guests? I know Oliver was bunking down there for awhile, but what about people like Alina? And what are the shower facilities like? Do they have a hot tub to soothe the aches after a fight? I feel they should have a hot tub. With green towels.

Felicity joked that they had turned NTA's rooms into something else now that they were gone but NTA didn't laugh (putting new meaning into dour). 

They better have showers, after all the sparring and blood and guts from people they've taken down, and the blood from their own wounds  It would be nice if they had a hot tub too, or at least a Jacuzzi with some nice smelling salts.

Quote

I keep seeing posts hypothesizing that Vince woulda been ok and there's just no way to know..

They used Vince to set a trap for Dinah and draw as many of Oliver's team away from the bomb as they could.  If it hadn't worked and Rene and Curtis had not gone with Dinah, there's a chance that Oliver, Diggle, Rene and Curtis could have got the bomb and Cayden James and his minions would have been too busy trying to hide to go back and kill Vince.

Edited February 2, 2018 by statsgirl

[Soulfire]

 

 

(From here.)

Angry face parallels --

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Soulfire

[calliope1975]

Oliver, who by all rights should never want to step foot on an island again, sure loves taking Felicity to them. ??

I bet it's because bikinis are involved. ?

ETA: This hugging/rocking thing is really working for me. Keep up the casual touching SA and EBR!

ETA2: Why has the US, once again, forsaken Starling City? An entire city is being held hostage, and the response is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯?

Edited February 2, 2018 by calliope1975

[JamieLynn832002]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 They better have showers, after all the sparring and blood and guts from people they've taken down, and the blood from their own wounds  It would be nice if they had a hot tub too, or at least a Jacuzzi with some nice smelling salts.

Oliver also lived in the bunker for a long time so I do really hope there are showers.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

It's only because the hate for them has been so overwhelming that I've been trying to offer up at least a reasoning behind their anger distrust hurt whatever.. Not absolving them.. And in fact saying most of this is on them.. Well really rene.. And these last two weeks dinah and curtis really haven't been so horrible.. And this week they didn't really fo anything anti-OTA at all

Curtis is just generally annoying at this point. Him whining about not getting a date is stupid.  He fucked up his own marriage and he's kind of a jerk. Rene saying shitting things about PTSD because he was in the bunker? GARBAGE.

So yeah they are still Team Punkass Snotbags.  IMO.

[WindofChange]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Oliver, who by all rights should never want to step foot on an island again, sure loves taking Felicity to them. ??

I bet it's because bikinis are involved. ?

And lots of dessert :)

[Guest]

I forgot to mention the Olicity scene earlier, mainly because the rest of the episode was so dull, but I'm really loving their quiet moments together. That scene wasn't long but it was enough to convey how married they are. Hearts in my eyes!

[Lantern7]

55 minutes ago, quarks said:

4. Is Aruba the only Caribbean island in the Arrowverse? Why doesn't anyone ever mention, say, Barbados? Or the Bahamas? I feel like Team Arrow would really like the Bahamas.

Forgot about that. I heard that, I imagined Oliver and Felicity arriving at the resort, only to find it in flames. Cut to Mick Rory: "Sorry. There was a time ab- . . . ar-  . . . time thing. Let me wrap up, and I'll ask the captain to send you back a few weeks before this happened."

Edited February 2, 2018 by Lantern7

[Guest]

Anyone else sense a little jealousy from Curtis over Felicity and Alena? I just saw a gif of when they high fived and Curtis is not impressed. LMAO. Bye. 

[Mellowyellow]

I truly do not care enough about this episode to make comments about it besides an Olicity comment.

Did you guys notice, after Oliver suggested Aruba for a honeymoon and Felicity goes "Aruba, Ooh", Oliver then has the most blissed out look as he goes "Mmm hmm", like he is flashbacking to his memories of Dessert in Aruba . I WANT THOSE FLASHBACKS!!!!! GIVE US THOSE FLASHBACKS!!!!!!!!

The hugging, the swaying, did she really need to whisper that close to his ear???????

I feel like now that Olicity are married, the actors are using new tactics to kill us all with how adorably sexy Olicity are even when they're not pining anymore. 

I watch various other shows and sometimes I feel like the main couple in those shows are like "Script says kiss, ok now we kiss. *Peck*. Done."

[Chris24601]

I think my favorite Olicity thing in the ep was actually after the honeymoon talk. The computer is beeping and they go over to it and they just keep holding hands practically the entire way there like they had to actually make an effort to STOP touching each other. Just a very cute moment.

On a completely unrelated note I am now thoroughly convinced that the writers are trying to make us dislike the Noob Team. Even a stopped clock gets the time right twice a day and general bad writing will still occasionally hit a mark, but the Noobs just consistently keep being written behaving horribly and making bad decisions while OTA keeps trying to make the best of a bad situation.

It's like they aren't even actual characters anymore... NTA are just plot device obstacles for OTA to overcome in actually saving the day. I felt sympathy for Vince (because he died and had terrible taste in women), but even more I felt sympathy for Oliver who's been bending over backwards and doing everything he can to catch a break and save the city and these losers keep failing him when he needs them to stand up and be heroes.

As to who the person who turned Cayden on Ollie is... my hunch is Anatole; he's got the means, motive and opportunity, a personal connection to Oliver and the actor and SA play well off each other. That makes him more effective Big Bad material than any of the others in Cayden's crew. Just prior to his team-up with Cayden, he came to Star City because his Brahtva wanted to make money off basically stealing from the city (and were having cash flow problems as I recall) and now Cayden's got at least $80 million sitting somewhere... my bet is Cayden was set up to fail by Anatole and the whole thing has been about stealing all that money from the city for the Brahtva's gain.

Which is probably why it'll end up being Alena or Dragon... because Anatole makes too much sense.

[doesntworkonwood]

Watching this episode mainly consisted of me sticking two fingers up at Dinah whenever she was on screen. She's just so self absorbed that her decisions border on nonsensical. 

She doesn't want Vince to infiltrate CJ and download all of the info? Maybe she should have some respect for her boyfriends ability to make his own decisions. Not that he has any respect for her considering he literally gave her a black eye last week. 

She hates OTA so much that she doesn't care that it's Felicity who helped saved his life in the first place. She just continues to act like a dick to OTA, and expects them to put the life of a guy they only just found out isn't evil, who spent an entire year trying to kill Oliver, above the city. I say life, but what I mean is a couple of hours of torture that he can endure because he has the ability to heal himself. 

At the end she goes off on Oliver, and expects another apology from him for not helping her save Vince. Ermm... If three people try to 'save' one guy and can't, it's not because someone else didn't help, it's because the team is shit. They are not capable of what they have volunteered for. If she wants to cast the blame on someone, she only needs to look around at her so called 'family', and herself, for being incompetent. 

I hope that Dinah does try to kill BS. I hope the BS gives it her all when she fights back. I hope that in the end, they end up killing each other and I never have to either of them on my screen. 

[Soulfire]

5 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

ETA: This hugging/rocking thing is really working for me. Keep up the casual touching SA and EBR!

Mmm hugging/rocking.

 

 

(From here.)

[Mellowyellow]

Note him rubbing her back as well! All the little details really add up.

They are ruining Chinese series for me! I keep demanding the same level of commitment from my Chinese series OTPs!

[cambridgeguy]

Last season they ditched Ragman, the most interesting of the newbies.  Now they kill off Vigilante, who was actually a sympathetic and interesting character.  In their place we have Curtis (who has turned into a passive aggressive dick), Rene (the guy who SOLD OUT OLIVER and been reduced to snidely calling everyone Hoss), and Dinah (who hid her renewed relationship with Vigilante even though she loves to talk about trust).  I'd sure like to know what the plan is here.

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Last season they ditched Ragman, the most interesting of the newbies.  Now they kill off Vigilante, who was actually a sympathetic and interesting character.  In their place we have Curtis (who has turned into a passive aggressive dick), Rene (the guy who SOLD OUT OLIVER and been reduced to snidely calling everyone Hoss), and Dinah (who hid her renewed relationship with Vigilante even though she loves to talk about trust).  I'd sure like to know what the plan is here

I’d love to know if what the writers are intending the audience to think about the newbies is at all close to the actual audience reaction. It reminds me of early last season when TV Line did a poll and the readers overwhelmingly picked Ragman (who unbeknownst to us was already being written off) as the runaway audience favourite and Rene (who hadn’t had his backstory ep yet and was insufferable) as the newbie the audience wanted gone, and Wendy Mericle’s response to the polls was “huh.” Not that I think writers should bow to fan wishes (something I don’t think this show does nearly as much as it’s accused of), but the writers should at least be aware of the disconnect. And in these past few episodes, I think they really did expect the audience to be split and somewhat side with the newbies. And it’s just not happening. 

It doesn’t help that scenes that *should* make us sympathetic to them seem to be strangely undermined. Like Oliver’s final scene with Dinah - he was so oddly cold.  I don’t know if it was the writing or the performance, but Oliver came off as shockingly uncaring about her situation. Instead of being like “hey, this sucks and I’m so sorry for your loss but I’m the world’s greatest expert on being blinded by vengeance so here’s why this is a bad idea” he was all “I’m not here to say sorry.” Like, the writers can’t even throw the newbies a bone when they should. It’s so odd!

Edited February 2, 2018 by Trisha

[ladylaw99]

There is not much to say about this  episode.  It was boring and predictable.  The only good part was Olicity, Oliver not giving a rat ass about the noobs and Oliver with Diggle kicking ass.  With that said not enough Diggle.  I need more of OTA, yes I am selfish that way.

I can't even mutter the strength to complain about the noobs.  I hate them and this episode proved once again they are useless and replaceable.   

[jay741982]

9 hours ago, Chaser said:

Oliver running his hands over Felicitys back during that hug gave me Olicity sex scene flashbacks. They were more enjoyable then the ones we got in this episode.

That's how HAWT Olicity is! To follow what@MellowYellow said we need another Sexytimes in 620 with Olicity honeymoon lol

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

It doesn’t help that scenes that *should* make us sympathetic to them seem to be strangely undermined. Like Oliver’s final scene with Dinah - he was so oddly cold.  I don’t know if it was the writing or the performance, but Oliver came off as shockingly uncaring about her situation. Instead of being like “hey, this sucks and I’m so sorry for your loss but I’m the world’s greatest expert on being blinded by vengeance so here’s why this is a bad idea” he was all “I’m not here to say sorry.” Like, the writers can’t even throw the newbies a bone when they should. It’s so odd!

The weird thing is that I didn't find Oliver oddly cold in that scene because I don't believe they're even friends? I even think acquaintances is a stretch. And Vince had tried to kill Oliver multiple times so it kinda felt appropriate to me tbh. 

IDK maybe I would feel differently if I cared about Dinah but I don't so it's really hard to feel for her situation. 

[KillahBee007]

Woo boy. What a stinker of an episode. I laughed through the majority of the n00bs scenes. If the writers wanted some people to hate them, they are a bang up job. What a bunch of hypocritical characters.  Are we going to pretend that Vince didn’t try to kill Oliver last year? We’re totes okay with that. Got it.  I absolutely cannot stand DD. I’m even more irritated that we had a FB with her but where’s my Diggle SL? Where is my Felicity SL? I really don’t like that excuse that the writers will ultimately give about not having enough time. However, here ya go, another flashback story for the bird. Yeah, nope.

I was so happy that they casted Michael Emerson and he does those quiet madman scenes really well. However, I want him to share scenes with Felicity. We are missing out. They are also wasting Thea and Lance on this ridiculous BS SL (hah, BS) and the PowerPoint slide show? Nope. 

I don’t expect this show to be as good it used to be but damn, a little effort. 

[Guest]

Cayden James would be ten times more interesting if he was a) allowed to interact with Felicity, you know, the person who was supposed to be his nemesis? And b) if they hadn't made his motivation the death of his son. And also the fact that he's a super intelligent man being tricked by computer fakery. Doesn't make sense.

As always Arrow gets a great actor and gives them mediocrity. ME does his scenes well but seeing as it's barely much at all, it just feels like a waste. A bit like this episode.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Guest

[Lady Calypso]

So, yeah, this episode was...something. I just found it overwhelmingly underwhelming. It doesn't help that I was spoiled by Vince's death two days ago, but even if I hadn't, they made it blatantly obvious in the first flashback that Vince wasn't escaping the episode alive. Hell, even last episode, I had inklings that Vince would either be a triple agent, or he'd die. 

Rene can piss off at any time. I'd be more than happy if he left with his daughter and never returned. He's the worst character on the show, by far. He's in my top five least favourites for Arrow, and he's officially above Laurel in that list! LAUREL! I had my many issues with Laurel, but she cared about the city; even when she tried to join Team Arrow and Oliver wasn't having it, she still went out there to fight. Rene cares more about his inflated ego than the city. See: him going to save Vince instead of helping to STOP A BOMB all because he can't stand OTA and can't admit to them that he was in the wrong.  

Curtis was....well, he was Curtis this episode. I still can't stand his passive aggressive comments. Plus, Alena proved to be more use than him. Also, Curtis. The reason you can't get a date? Because you're a miserable, miserable person. You chased your own husband away. 

Dinah, for the second episode, didn't annoy me all that much. Yes, she had her angry face with OTA, but she was relatively tame for most of the episode, and at least I could understand where her anger was coming from (losing Vince for a second time). Plus, her promise to kill Black Siren first earned a couple of points for me. 

Speaking of Black Siren, I'm really pissed off that they're actually going down a redemption arc for her. Quentin continues to be a victim of horrible writing, along with Thea. I swear if I have to hear him say "SHE'S MY DAUGHTER" one more time, I'm going to write Quentin off for good. This season is literally him saying the same thing over and over. Maybe it would be better to just write Quentin off if they really can't give him anything better. He hasn't gotten anything good since season 4, anyway. And Thea, poor Thea only gets to interact with her brother once a season now. 

But yeah, Black Siren is now afraid of Cayden and didn't seem to want to kill Vince? Really? I'm giving the show its bullshit back. BS loves killing. Just because she's having feelings for her Daddy Issues does not negate her thrill for the kill. 

Cayden could have been such a formidable foe, but they've really underused him this season. Poor Michael Emerson could have gotten so much more interesting stuff, but Cayden's been underwhelming. 

The small OTA moments were nice, at least. But yeah, nothing much else to like about this episode. I actually was starting to like Vince so of course they kill him off. First, they get rid of Ragman, and now Vince dies. All the new possible members keep being taken away from me for less likable ones.

[quarks]

8 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

But for a second week most of the Petty and snark csme from rene.. Last week dinah and Curtis were already less annoying abt being pissed at ota and this week nothing until the end when dinah was just broken.. I keep seeing posts hypothesizing that Vince woulda been ok and there's just no way to know.. We could look at any decision that's been made on the show and pick it apart.. Maybe if Oliver did this.. Such and such would be alive..

I've tended to be a bit less harsh on Team Not Arrow than others here, but this week was just not a good look for them: 

1. After squawking that Team Arrow wasn't sharing info with them, Team Not Arrow failed to inform Team Arrow that Vince was a double agent, nearly getting Vince injured.

Bonus: this all led to Rene and Curtis having to announce this in an alley that Cayden James presumably knows is one of Oliver's favorite places, since he's in that alley every two or three weeks or so. The chances of cameras being around, alerting Cayden to the situation? High.

2. Rene's PTSD comments, made in front of several people who have or could potentially have actual PTSD. For that matter, Rene himself should be having PTSD over actual trauma things. 

It doesn't help that Rene, the Team Not Arrow delivering the most bitterness/snark towards Oliver this episode, is also the guiltiest member of Team Not Arrow. I give Curtis a bit of a break since he didn't betray Oliver - and his long term friendship with Felicity and willingness to work with her on a start-up company should have earned him a bit of trust at this point.  I see his side of things, and I think that Curtis does have the right to feel betrayed and hurt here. Rene? Really not so much. The guy has betrayed Oliver not once, but twice, and was around for the Evelyn aftermath - and yet continues to act like the wounded party in this situation. Putting "my boss checked up on my email and invaded my privacy" on the same level as "everything Oliver has gone through," AND Diggle's military experiences/kidnappings AND Felicity's kidnappings AND Alina's trauma AND Dinah's transformation into a metahuman/watching people die right in front of her on multiple occasions? Yeah, no.

2. When Vince was in trouble, Felicity, not anyone on Team Not Arrow, saved him. Team Not Arrow's "plan" there, such as it wasn't, was for Vince to break cover, and get killed - and fail to get the info. 

3. Suddenly, Vince's comms go on, revealing that he's being tortured. Not once does it occur to Dinah that just maybe this is a trap, even though Cayden James' main strategy is to use communication tools/computers against people, and both teams know that Cayden James has been manipulating them or trying to manipulate them. 

4. When given the choice between saving a metahuman who murdered several people last season and who, as Cayden James pointed out just this episode, has a pretty checkered history, and who can heal himself, and stopping a bomb in order to save several people who haven't murdered anyone, Team Not Arrow chose to save the metahuman guy.

(And then didn't manage to save him, adding "incompetence" to their issues this episode.)

Really bad look there. If Dinah had been the only one to head over to Vince, that would have been one thing, but she wasn't.

5. Even though Dinah is a metahuman, whose cry has the power to stop subway trains, as we saw just last week, she didn't once use her cry to try to stop Black Siren from killing Vince right in front of her. Yes, she had a styrofoam plank on top of her, but she had nothing in her mouth. In other words, she could have used her cry to save Vince - and she didn't.

6. Dinah then ended the episode blaming Oliver for Vince's death.

Here's the thing - in six seasons on this show, Oliver has made a lot of bad decisions, to the point where they've become a running joke. Said decisions have often gotten people killed. But, and this is key, we've consistently seen Oliver feel terrible/guilty about them, and personally punished (in the sense of getting abandoned on an evil island, finding himself back on said evil island, getting physically tortured by villains, falling off a cliff, and so on).  We've seen plenty of other characters - Malcolm excepted - feel/discuss guilt. Including Curtis and Rene, for the record.

At the end of this episode, yes, Dinah is grieving. But not once does she acknowledge any guilt for her own role here - including a) walking into an obvious trap, b) failing to use her scream to stop Black Siren, and c) the not so small fact that Vince infiltrated Team Evil partly for her sake in the first place. Nor does she acknowledge that Oliver was trying to save a number of innocent people, and that Oliver was flat out of money, and thus looking at the potential of losing the entire city. Or that her decision to walk away from Team Arrow and help form a new team means that the neither team is acting as effectively as they were, which is part of why Cayden James and Black Siren were able to kill Vince.

Instead, she blames Oliver and then announces that she's going to kill Black Siren.

I get that Dinah is grieving and upset right now, and that we might well have a later scene that cancels out some of my complaints here. But for right now, I see three people who are partly responsible for getting someone else killed, who chose to try to save a single person instead of trying to save several people and the city (and ok, yes Star City's frankly unbelievable savings account). And sure, Quentin and Thea were also running around trying to save a psychopath for....for reasons, and I'm not at all clear as to why Thea isn't suiting back up and trying to do more to save the city instead of yelling at accountants and running after psychopaths - but at least Quentin and Thea aren't blaming Oliver/Team Arrow for what's going on. 

As said, not a great look.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

5. Even though Dinah is a metahuman, whose cry has the power to stop subway trains, as we saw just last week, she didn't once use her cry to try to stop Black Siren from killing Vince right in front of her. Yes, she had a styrofoam plank on top of her, but she had nothing in her mouth. In other words, she could have used her cry to save Vince - and she didn't.

I agree with most of your points, but this one I might be able to explain away. Since Dinah seemed to be crushed in the chest by the plank, it's possible it actually stopped her from being able to use her power. Don't forget; both BS and Dinah typically huff and puff before blowing everyone down, so if Dinah couldn't suck in any air to be able to use her power, that would make sense as to why she couldn't stop Black Siren. 

[KenyaJ]

21 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

The weird thing is that I didn't find Oliver oddly cold in that scene because I don't believe they're even friends? I even think acquaintances is a stretch. And Vince had tried to kill Oliver multiple times so it kinda felt appropriate to me tbh. 

Agreed. I didn't think Oliver was being cold at all. He and Dinah have never been anything more than professional acquaintances on their best day and she's so hostile to him right now. He was actually a lot kinder to her than I was hoping for. I wanted him to tell her "I told you so," but I'm a bitch. LOL.

[tv echo]

It aggravates me that the show is being written like NTA did nothing wrong and are the injured party, while OTA tries to appease them and get them back.

If this episode was supposed to make me feel more sympathetic toward or side with the newbies, it didn't work. They still came off as resentful children who continue to act as if they were innocent victims of OTA's distrust. Enough with their snarky comments - Curtis with his petulant "We were going to tell you guys... eventually" and "Nice. Love what you guys haven't done with the place." And Rene with his  "We have the inside man. You have the tech. That's the only reason we're back, Hoss." and "How much longer do I got to be here, because I'm starting to get PTSD." Even Dinah with her "We all got him into this. We should all be getting him out!" and "You lost that right when you decided to leave Vince on his own to die." Just GFO, all three of you.

Dinah was admittedly a little more sympathetic but, man, there was way too much of her.  Also, before this episode, I thought that Dinah and Vince had been long-time partners on the police force - like, for several years - who started off as friends and then fell in love and became lovers. Now we learn that they only met right before, and worked and slept together on, just this one undercover assignment. So unless we're supposed to believe it was love at first sight (and I eyerolled their startled first looks at each other), it's hard to get invested in their love story. I barely know Vince/Vigilante and what little I know is dominated by the fact that he tried to kill Oliver on multiple occasions. I only know Dinah a little bit better and what I know is dominated by her unjustified self-righteous anger at OTA. Even here, she expected Oliver to apologize for prioritizing saving the city over saving a guy who can heal himself and who's threatened his team. Yet, iirc, she has never apologized to him or to the team for lying, concealing the truth, and protecting a guy who tried to kill him on multiple occasions. Moreover, Vince made his own decision and that decision wasn't motivated by Oliver or Team Arrow; if anything, it was motivated by his love for Dinah (as revealed by Johann Urb in his recent interviews). Maybe because I've seen so little of Vince and Dinah together or their history (or maybe it's JH's acting), but I felt unmoved by Dinah's grief at his death.

Actually, I'm not 100% convinced that Vince is really dead. Unless they cremated his body, his meta healing power could still eventually heal whatever damage was done by the sonic scream - it might just take longer. The sonic scream might also have damaged his memory temporarily. Just like with Malcolm Merlyn, the show has left open the possibility for the Vigilante to return in the future.

It seems like, whenever Dinah feels angry and guilty over something she's done or feels responsible for, she projects that anger and guilt to someone else. In this respect, she's just like her predecessor Black Canary (E1 Laurel). Dinah is just like her predecessor in another way as well. E1 Laurel was a D.A. who prosecuted criminals for breaking the law by day, but she herself broke the law at night as Black Canary. Dinah is a police detective who enforces the law by day, but she herself breaks the law at night as Black Canary (remember the anti-vigilante law?) - even more so, if she now seeks to kill the villains outright and not in self-defense. 

I'm not so sure that Dinah was right when she said that, if it was Felicity or Lyla, Oliver would send the whole team to rescue them first. I think he would've calculated the odds and figured out another way to try to do both. (Maybe Oliver would've gone to rescue Felicity, but he would've sent everyone else to go after the bomb. Or Diggle would've gone to rescue Lyla, but everyone else would've gone after the bomb.) In Vigilante's case, Oliver considered Vince's healing factor as weighing against rescuing him first. Also, Oliver, Diggle and Felicity have always been willing to sacrifice their own lives in order to save the city. (For example, back in S3, in order to save the city, Oliver left both Felicity and Diggle behind in Nanda Parbat prison believing that they were dying from poison that he threw at them, and Oliver expected to die on the plane with Ra's al Ghul.)

Btw, if it had been Oliver in Vigilante's predicament, Oliver would've grabbed a weapon when he escaped from his bonds, like a knife or other sharp pointy torture instrument from that room, or  taken a gun from the minion he took down. Then when he was confronted by Black Siren and Cayden, and Black Siren blew him into the wall, Oliver would've thrown the knife or shot the gun and killed Black Siren, before she could use her sonic scream.

Double eyeroll at the Quentin/Black Siren scenes. I feel like they're trying to keep it ambiguous whether or not Black Siren is redeemable, but she's just coming across as weak. Why is someone so powerful even obeying whatever orders are given to her by Cayden James? 

At this point, the inevitable fight to the death between Dinah and Black Siren might be a win-win, with either Dinah killing the irritating Black Siren or Black Siren killing the hypocritical Dinah. Unfortunately, my guess is that Dinah will defeat Black Siren, but Oliver (or Quentin) will manage to talk her out of killing her. So the best I can hope for is that Black Siren will be locked away again.

Alena has moved onto my short list of suspects for the mastermind who manipulated Cayden. (Alena: "Whoever planned this knew exactly how Cayden would react.") Others on my short list are Richard Diaz, Noah Kuttler, and a new villain who hasn't been introduced yet (maybe the Big Bad leading into S7?).  Alena could be Cayden's secret illegitimate daughter who he abandoned long ago and who's been plotting revenge against both Cayden and his son (her half-brother). That would fit into this season's theme of family. However, I hope that Alena is good because I also want her to join Team Arrow.

Misc notes:
-- BS has repeatedly tried to kill Dinah, but lets Dinah live when she's trapped under a beam?
-- NTA is calling their lair "Helix" even over the comms. If Cayden intercepts their transmissions, he'll know exactly where they're headquartered (if he doesn't already).
-- Cayden James is a world-class computer genius, yet he can't figure out that the video sent to him from Corto Maltese was doctored?
-- R.I.P. ARGUS agent Alex Scott. Another POC bites the dust.
-- Belated R.I.P. Boots Sheck. We finally find out your last name.

ETA: On a superficial note, I really liked Felicity's hair style in this episode.

Edited February 2, 2018 by tv echo

[quarks]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I agree with most of your points, but this one I might be able to explain away. Since Dinah seemed to be crushed in the chest by the plank, it's possible it actually stopped her from being able to use her power. Don't forget; both BS and Dinah typically huff and puff before blowing everyone down, so if Dinah couldn't suck in any air to be able to use her power, that would make sense as to why she couldn't stop Black Siren. 

Both Black Canary and Black Siren have been able to scream while buried under stuff before, and Dinah apparently didn't even get a broken rib from that plank - we saw her running around and breathing without a touch of pain after Curtis and Rene easily lifted that plank off her. 

Which just demonstrates how much certain acting choices harmed this episode and this character. If we had seen Curtis and Rene visibly struggling to lift up that plank, sure - but they just walked over and lifted it without any effort at all, and then Dinah jumped up and started running around. They didn't even have to remove any additional debris - giving the impression that that the plank wasn't that heavy AND wasn't weighted down by other objects.  Or, if we'd seen Dinah walking painfully or touching her chest gingerly to suggest that she'd cracked a rib - but no; Dinah was walking normally and showed no signs of physical pain. And unlike Vince and Barry, she doesn't have any metahuman healing powers, suggesting that she wasn't injured.

I know Arrow films quickly, and thus overlooks stuff like this - but it's acting/editing* choices like this that allow for a more negative interpretation. Close to what happened in episode 317, when the director/film editor/script editor completely forgot about poor electrocuted Roy, and just shifted to showing Oliver and Ray taking off, leaving the distinct if unintentional impression that Oliver and Ray are the sorts of jerks who willingly leave friends and potential allies twitching in puddles. It pretty much took an entirely new show to redeem Ray after that (and a few other issues, but leaving an electrocuted Roy twitching in a puddle was definitely one of Ray's all time worst moments - even though it was a production error, not a character choice.)

Sidenote: typing that paragraph made me very grateful that we are not dealing with the Roy/Ray typing issues from season three. See? This season DOES have its silver linings!

 

* It's very possible that other takes showed Curtis and Rene struggling to remove the plank, and the film editor went with a shorter, non struggling take for time reasons, making that bit an editing/directing decision, not an acting one. But Juliana Harkavy had several scenes where she could have acted as if she had a broken rib or two, and didn't. So I can't buy the "she couldn't breathe" scenario. 

[Hiveminder]

55 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

The weird thing is that I didn't find Oliver oddly cold in that scene because I don't believe they're even friends? I even think acquaintances is a stretch. And Vince had tried to kill Oliver multiple times so it kinda felt appropriate to me tbh. 

IDK maybe I would feel differently if I cared about Dinah but I don't so it's really hard to feel for her situation. 

Oliver and Dinah are former co-workers who still work in the same industry and interact, nothing more. 

[way2interested]

14 minutes ago, tv echo said:

It aggravates me that that show is being written like NTA did nothing wrong and are the injured party, while OTA tries to appease them and get them back

I don't really see OTA as trying to appease them and get them back because NTA did nothing wrong or were the injured party. It more seems like OTA recognize that because the bad guys are a team that they should probably work together for the bigger picture of the city and are tolerating the newbies' snark. Appeasing them would be having Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity continually apologizing and trying to defend themselves, which, besides Oliver's apology in 610, they haven't done. OTA have decidedly moved on (even beyond Rene betraying them and Dinah keeping a potentially deadly secret from them), but they aren't coddling the newbies. Literally all of the times OTA is trying to get them back has at least one of the characters mentioning about how it's for the city, not about how they actually want them back. 

[Guest]

I would love to know what the writers were thinking and their intentions behind the way they're writing the newbies. If it was any other show I'd think they were writing them off but this is Arrow and the writers have such a massive disconnect with their audience sometimes. So I feel like we're supposed to be sympathetic to them and also be on their side yet I am the complete opposite and now hate them more than I ever did. 

This storyline probably would have worked if I'd cared about the newbies in the first place but I don't so all it's succeeding in doing is making me want them gone forever. IDGI.

[Lady Calypso]

19 minutes ago, quarks said:

Both Black Canary and Black Siren have been able to scream while buried under stuff before, and Dinah apparently didn't even get a broken rib from that plank - we saw her running around and breathing without a touch of pain after Curtis and Rene easily lifted that plank off her. 

I'm going to chalk that up to more a bad acting choice and bad directing. I think they were going for the fact that Dinah was trapped and couldn't use her Canary Cry because of the heavy plank resting on her chest. 

[tangerine95]

This episode was so beyond boring,I just didn't care at all about 90% of this stuff.I basically only liked the olicity scene.They continue to be amazing as a married couple,I loved them wishing for a honeymoon after everything is over.You can just see them both relax and lighten up despite everything just by being together.Also liked the Alena Felicity scenes.I know there's spec she betrays Felicity and is working with Cayden and I wouldn't mind that tbh.I love their friendship and I'm wishing so hard she Alena replaces Curtis on the team but I'd be fine with her being a double agent because then it gives Felicity the villain they promised and didn't deliver.

The rest was just boring and annoying.I can't believe how awful they're making the newbies be.I just don't think they're aware,they're so desperate for those characters to be accepted that I have a hard time believing they're making them unlikable on purpose.But it's just so badly written.They literally have Rene say he's getting PTSD from being in the bunker,the place where he betrayed the man with actual PTSD.And Curtis with just his constant jealous and passive aggressive remarks,idk if they think that's supposed to be funny because all it does is make Curtis seem like a petty,immature jerk.

Dinah can't carry an episode imo,I just don't think she's interesting.And it's not helping that we saw this story on the show before.Literally saw it with Dinah when she showed up and her story was also being obsessed with revenge because her bf died.We even got fbs about it so they're really here repeating the same story only it's different people she wants to kill now.I didn't mind that she went to save Vince,she had a point that Oliver would do the same for Felicity.But imo he wouldn't ignore the city in danger tho and expect the whole team to go with him.He would try to do both and probably go for Felicity alone.We saw Felicity do that when she save him alone in the atom suit.And he for sure wouldn't be blaming other people who just tried to save the city.

Lance is so delusional,it's sad and creepy at this point.He's just acting like this is Laurel,only she went crazy or lost her memory or something and completely ignoring the fact that she's a different person from another earth who just looks like LL but it's not actually her.It's not that difficult to get since we saw Oliver and Felicity faced with Nazi Oliver and even Nazi Tommy and they managed to make the separation and not go insane about it.At this point I'm rooting for Lance getting himself killed tbh,because being that dumb kinda deserves it.I'm actually rooting for this whole Dinah,BS,Lance situation to end with all of them gone but I'm not that lucky lol

I do agree OTA doesn't seem to care about the newbies especially Oliver is apathetic.I kinda love it tho,reminds me of how he treated Laurel on the team and that was always funny.They're out there drowning in bitterness and resentment for OTA and being all dramatic while OTA is just doing their thing and having mature priorities and cute moments with each other.

Edited February 2, 2018 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

12 minutes ago, quarks said:

Both Black Canary and Black Siren have been able to scream while buried under stuff before, and Dinah apparently didn't even get a broken rib from that plank - we saw her running around and breathing without a touch of pain after Curtis and Rene easily lifted that plank off her. 

When have screamed when buried under anything? Siren especially has never been in that situation.  

I didn't take issue with Dinah not using her powers since it is one that seems to take some energy to use and she probably didn't have, not to mention she didn't have much head movement and was emotionally compromised. 

Now they should've had her show more emotion, maybe plead with BS/CJ. Have Vince say his goodbye to Dinah, try to fight against the scream.