S02.E13: That'll Be the Day

[chocolatine]

49 minutes ago, qtpye said:

He asked how it was going to happen and mentioned perhaps Jack getting into a crash after driving around drunk.

That's so last season's speculation! ;)

[sasha206]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:30 PM, SnoGirl said:

I actually can’t wait for Jack’s death so we can finally move past Saint Jack. I wont mind seeing him in flashbacks but let’s move on from this mystery. I want to see the siblings and Rebecca heal and move on. 

AMEN.

I had hoped that Jack being an alcoholic would give this guy layers.  But he basically struggled as an alcoholic for what, an episode or two, then back to being a candidate for sainthood.  His whole rah-rah persona is just so irritating.  This show seems hell bent on making every male this hopeless romantic.  And big gestures galore.  And everyone seems to be able to quit jobs, start companies, buy tenant buildings, and never seem to ever have to worry about financial implications of their decision-making.  

This show would've been a lot more interesting to me if people would actually not be super impulsive and have REAL consequences to their decision-making.  Not some rash decision or addiction that resolves itself the next episode.  Yeah, I know shows could be boring with storylines that drag on but can we have a few episodes where there is progression to a storyline not "Let's buy a tenement building" to "bought a tenement building now I really want to fix things" and fixing things is what Beth tells him to "slow his roll" on.  

Edited January 28, 2018 by sasha206

[balmz]

3 hours ago, sasha206 said:

AMEN.

I had hoped that Jack being an alcoholic would give this guy layers.  But he basically struggled as an alcoholic for what, an episode or two, then back to being a candidate for sainthood.  His whole rah-rah persona is just so irritating.  This show seems hell bent on making every male this hopeless romantic.  And big gestures galore.  And everyone seems to be able to quit jobs, start companies, buy tenant buildings, and never seem to ever have to worry about financial implications of their decision-making.  

This show would've been a lot more interesting to me if people would actually not be super impulsive and have REAL consequences to their decision-making.  Not some rash decision or addiction that resolves itself the next episode.  Yeah, I know shows could be boring with storylines that drag on but can we have a few episodes where there is progression to a storyline not "Let's buy a tenement building" to "bought a tenement building now I really want to fix things" and fixing things is what Beth tells him to "slow his roll" on.  

agreed, i find the hype and shilling of jack to be so damn annoying, it turns me off of jack, also randall is really acting poorly, it annoys me that most often the male characters are portrayed as gary stus who can do no wrong

 

 

something that'd be nice is if the tenant thing comes crashing down HARD on randall and kevin, like they realize they bit off way more then they could handle or them trying to be a hero has catastrophic consequences, like when renovating someone tries to use a nail gun with no training and ends up shooting a nail in themselves or they do something not meant for beginners and get hurt bad

[DebbieM4]

8 hours ago, Pallas said:

 

Bitchy folk don't have your back. Beth does.

I agree.  I think Beth is exactly the kind of life partner Randall needs.  I don't think she's perfect, but most of the time I love her.

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Your husband is Beth to your Randall. In this wonderful story, anyway!

 

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That's so last season's speculation! ;)

 

4 hours ago, sasha206 said:

AMEN.

I had hoped that Jack being an alcoholic would give this guy layers.  But he basically struggled as an alcoholic for what, an episode or two, then back to being a candidate for sainthood.  His whole rah-rah persona is just so irritating.  This show seems hell bent on making every male this hopeless romantic.  And big gestures galore.  And everyone seems to be able to quit jobs, start companies, buy tenant buildings, and never seem to ever have to worry about financial implications of their decision-making.  

This show would've been a lot more interesting to me if people would actually not be super impulsive and have REAL consequences to their decision-making.  Not some rash decision or addiction that resolves itself the next episode.  Yeah, I know shows could be boring with storylines that drag on but can we have a few episodes where there is progression to a storyline not "Let's buy a tenement building" to "bought a tenement building now I really want to fix things" and fixing things is what Beth tells him to "slow his roll" on.  

 

 

35 minutes ago, balmz said:

agreed, i find the hype and shilling of jack to be so damn annoying, it turns me off of jack, also randall is really acting poorly, it annoys me that most often the male characters are portrayed as gary stus who can do no wrong

 

 

something that'd be nice is if the tenant thing comes crashing down HARD on randall and kevin, like they realize they bit off way more then they could handle or them trying to be a hero has catastrophic consequences, like when renovating someone tries to use a nail gun with no training and ends up shooting a nail in themselves or they do something not meant for beginners and get hurt bad

My husband asked this morning if when Jack dies will we see an astral projection of him growing wings and a halo as beautiful white light shines down upon him.  I told him that he pretty much grew that halo ever since he met his future wife.

Edited January 28, 2018 by qtpye

[Dowel Jones]

If the first person that Jack meets is named either Shawn or Michael, then we'll know.

[bros402]

After they kill off Jack, I hope they start to show more flashbacks where he isn't a saint. Maybe more about how his alcoholism affected the family - maybe things they suppressed to keep his saintly image in their mind

[debraran]

I

On 1/28/2018 at 1:38 AM, bros402 said:

After they kill off Jack, I hope they start to show more flashbacks where he isn't a saint. Maybe more about how his alcoholism affected the family - maybe things they suppressed to keep his saintly image in their mind

He certainly wasn't a saint and he didn't always have Rebecca's back, doing things without asking and her "saintly" going along. He undermined her with Kate so she was "bad cop" and she owned it, but it wasn't right. It helped set up the relationship when Kate lost her dad. Instead of sharing the grief, especially if she felt guilty, she seemed to spurn her mom even more. Did she feel guilty wishing it wasn't her in a morbid way? I'm so glad they started to have a relationship now before another 20 years went by.

Jack was a good person, but he had a past where he almost committed a crime, he hid his alcoholism, he wasn't perfect, but a very good person who had good intentions. We all should try to be that way. If he wasn't so cute (to some) I'm sure the saintly part would ebb a little. ; )

 

On 1/26/2018 at 1:10 PM, chocolatine said:

That's exactly how I interpreted it as well, and I think that's also why Jack wrote in his note that Kevin owes them an apology. I can see that comment as being especially hurtful to Jack, to whom a happy family life is the be all end all, to see Kevin be so dismissive of everything Jack holds dear.

I think by "no fly zone" Toby meant he couldn't say anything critical about Jack, not that he couldn't ask questions about him.

They have discussed his death, he knows how it happened, but not details in the beginning. She didn't want to rehash it which is understandable but at least she tried at the camp to get through it. Maybe the therapy session they butchered with editing because it told too much, will come back in flashbacks. I also welcome that the death can be discussed now, what a door to so many questions and flashbacks that were held off on earlier.

I was reading that quote again from Kevin to Kate about being stuck, when she sat in front of where their house was and thought, he was too, but in a different way. He physically went on but with lots of baggage. From the 20's episode:

"Where are you at?" Kevin asks Kate, revealing he hadn't had an audition in nearly a year. "You still sittin' in your car, eating fast food and staring at where the house used to be?"

"He's gone," Kevin continues. "OK? And he's not coming back. Even if you sit there, in the exact same spot where you were when he left… he's not coming back."

Is "left" a euphemism for died?

Also when Randall said, "We took our eyes off of him for a second and he was gone" That stuck with me, did they lose him in an explosion or accident while not looking? Just an odd statement or maybe looking for something not there.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, debraran said:

"Where are you at?" Kevin asks Kate, revealing he hadn't had an audition in nearly a year. "You still sittin' in your car, eating fast food and staring at where the house used to be?"

"He's gone," Kevin continues. "OK? And he's not coming back. Even if you sit there, in the exact same spot where you were when he left… he's not coming back."

Is "left" a euphemism for died?

Also when Randall said, "We took our eyes off of him for a second and he was gone" That stuck with me, did they lose him in an explosion or accident while not looking? Just an odd statement or maybe looking for something not there.

I had the same thought about that bit of dialog with Kate, and that comment of Randall's has always been in the back of my mind. I guess we'll find out soon if it pays off.

[Pallas]

Replying in the Spec thread.

[sasha206]

On 1/27/2018 at 10:07 PM, qtpye said:

 

 

 

My husband asked this morning if when Jack dies will we see an astral projection of him growing wings and a halo as beautiful white light shines down upon him.  I told him that he pretty much grew that halo ever since he met his future wife.

 

That's brilliant!  Tell your husband that made me giggle.

 

On 1/28/2018 at 6:29 AM, debraran said:

I

He certainly wasn't a saint and he didn't always have Rebecca's back, doing things without asking and her "saintly" going along. He undermined her with Kate so she was "bad cop" and she owned it, but it wasn't right. It helped set up the relationship when Kate lost her dad. Instead of sharing the grief, especially if she felt guilty, she seemed to spurn her mom even more. Did she feel guilty wishing it wasn't her in a morbid way? I'm so glad they started to have a relationship now before another 20 years went by.

Jack was a good person, but he had a past where he almost committed a crime, he hid his alcoholism, he wasn't perfect, but a very good person who had good intentions. We all should try to be that way. If he wasn't so cute (to some) I'm sure the saintly part would ebb a little. ; )

But the thing is despite those transgressions (which are so glossed over), he is treated by EVERYONE in the family as heroic, as the saintly man, as the person who was the glue, the romantic.  His alcoholism was so easily beat; only a couple of episodes in which he acted a little bit like an asshole towards Rebecca's "singing career" and an episode where they split for nanosecond.  And in those episodes, he is somewhat vindicated by Rebecca being hit on by ex-short lived love interest and bandmate...and Rebecca had hid that aspect from Jack.  Not to mention, Rebecca's singing career involves touring with young kids at home.  Jack gave up his dream of having his own construction company for stability until impulsively deciding to pursue it before his death; so Rebecca chasing after a pipe dream at her career and him not being completely supportive seemed more like a normal human reaction and not that terrible in the scheme of things w/three young kids at home..   So in my mind, every time Jack does something somewhat human, somewhat bad, there is an extenuating circumstance to make the audience still side with him a bit.

Unlike most alcoholics, the effects of his alcoholism across the whole family wasn't felt very much by the way the show is portrayed -- except for a nanosecond with Rebecca.  I mean the only real impact it seemed to have on the kids were that OMG, he's apologizing for past actions again  as part of his 12 step (Kevin).   Their only other issues with him is he's too much of an optimist!  He sees the upside in everything!  Can't wallow in pain!  I guess you could argue that the only real consequence of Jack's addiction is that it went through the bloodline to Kevin, who also seemed to beat an opiate addiction within record time.  Even his best friend who married his wife can't even be jealous of him or won't let himself be jealous of him because he reveres him as the BEST PERSON EVER.

The only way this show could redeem itself is that they all start dealing with his tragic death for the first time and then we start to see that the reason he has so far been portrayed this way is because in death, you tend to view people as saintly beings especially when they died young and in a tragic way.  Next season could get down into the layers of Jack by showing them remembering things that weren't so great.  Maybe show the kids suspecting that their dad was a boozer and that maybe he was short-tempered with them like his asshole father was.  Or maybe show that despite doing his 12 step program and making amends, he still struggled to stay sober and relapsed at times like most alcoholics do.  And then maybe the big three and everyone else could move on from their lives because they realize that their saintly dad wasn't someone they need to live up to.

[Guest]

I would love that but I don't think it's going to happen.  I think we're stuck with the theme of how five people recover from the loss of the most loving father and husband the world has ever seen.  

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I would love that but I don't think it's going to happen.  I think we're stuck with the theme of how five people recover from the loss of the most loving father and husband the world has ever seen.  

Amen!  Although it is possible that after the death is revealed, there is less of an appeal of the show and they decide, oops, we better start adding layers to Jack!  It wouldn't surprise me if by season 3 they decide to show the kids finding out their dad was a total fraud.  Had a girlfriend on the side he boozed with.  And guess what, she got pregnant!  Jack Jr. shows up on their doorstep and is the spitting image of a young Jack!  Or wouldn't it be great if they went the soap opera route and found out his death was faked? :)

[Blakeston]

After we finally see Jack's heroic martyr's death, I think it's possible that eventually we'll hear Rebecca acknowledge that Jack was less saintly than she's made him out to be.

The writers have shown some awareness that Jack's issues extended beyond alcoholism. Randall acknowledged in the season premiere that the way Jack badgered Rebecca into adoption (right after losing a baby) wasn't the healthiest dynamic for a marriage. And the writers seemed to understand in the recent cabin episode that Jack was wrong to take Kate out for ice cream behind Rebecca's back.

And in Kevin's therapy episode, Beth and Toby pointed out that the Pearsons idealize Jack's memory.

I pity whichever Pearson is the first to point out that Jack's halo was tarnished by more than just his drinking. But after the others get outraged, they may eventually realize the truth.

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

And in Kevin's therapy episode, Beth and Toby pointed out that the Pearsons idealize Jack's memory.

I pity whichever Pearson is the first to point out that Jack's halo was tarnished by more than just his drinking. But after the others get outraged, they may eventually realize the truth.

Yep, the "no-fly zone" isn't just with outsiders, it's within the Pearson family itself.

[MsChicklet]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

Jack was a good person, but he had a past where he almost committed a crime, he hid his alcoholism, he wasn't perfect, but a very good person who had good intentions.

I think we've seen that pretty well. Yes, Jack had issues, from the drinking to the deep need to be the Good Guy to the nasty anger. He was an adult child of an alcoholic, and a war veteran with the traumas that go with that, and issues from whatever happened with his brother. He was also the guy who was there, in a time where the kids probably had lots of friends with divorced parents (*cough* Miguel and Shelly *cough*). He was the guy who would be Pilgrim Rick, the guy who had pure love for his kids as Kate saw in that video, the guy who never gave up on Kevin, the guy who helped Randall breathe through anxiety attacks, the guy who saw Rebecca's potential for Big Three Homes.

Between grief and guilt, as well as a family history of codependence, I get why the Pearsons circled the wagons even though it's hurt them over the years and not let them recover in a lot of ways. Rebecca still can't take off her necklace years after she married another man. There's something about how he lived as well as how he died that is such a strong tie for this family even 20 years after he died. That's why there's so much more story to tell going forward from the Jack's Death episodes.

Edited January 28, 2018 by MsChicklet

[debraran]

47 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

After we finally see Jack's heroic martyr's death, I think it's possible that eventually we'll hear Rebecca acknowledge that Jack was less saintly than she's made him out to be.

The writers have shown some awareness that Jack's issues extended beyond alcoholism. Randall acknowledged in the season premiere that the way Jack badgered Rebecca into adoption (right after losing a baby) wasn't the healthiest dynamic for a marriage. And the writers seemed to understand in the recent cabin episode that Jack was wrong to take Kate out for ice cream behind Rebecca's back.

And in Kevin's therapy episode, Beth and Toby pointed out that the Pearsons idealize Jack's memory.

I pity whichever Pearson is the first to point out that Jack's halo was tarnished by more than just his drinking. But after the others get outraged, they may eventually realize the truth.

And you know the ice cream episode was one of many, many times that happened. They keep alluding to it, even in the Halloween episodes (please make Kate another costume, I would have said no) and I feel the indulgence is part of his death guilt with Kate. That's not really love, that's a need to be accepted and dote, a quick fix that many parents realize later, wasn't such a good thing. The video episode was different, he wasn't giving her anything but his eyes for a minute, that was fatherly love, not saying she could have whatever she wants.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, MsChicklet said:

I think we've seen that pretty well. Yes, Jack had issues, from the drinking to the deep need to be the Good Guy to the nasty anger. He was an adult child of an alcoholic, and a war veteran with the traumas that go with that, and issues from whatever happened with his brother. He was also the guy who was there, in a time where the kids probably had lots of friends with divorced parents (*cough* Miguel and Shelly *cough*). He was the guy who would be Pilgrim Rick, the guy who had pure love for his kids as Kate saw in that video, the guy who never gave up on Kevin, the guy who helped Randall breathe through anxiety attacks, the guy who saw Rebecca's potential for Big Three Homes.

Between grief and guilt, as well as a family history of codependence, I get why the Pearsons circled the wagons even though it's hurt them over the years and not let them recover in a lot of ways. Rebecca still can't take off her necklace years after she married another man. There's something about how he lived as well as how he died that is such a strong tie for this family even 20 years after he died. That's why there's so much more story to tell going forward from the Jack's Death episodes.

I agree, and think whatever imperfections he had (we all do, he certainly did) have been papered over in all of their minds by both the passage of time, and probably most of all, by the fact that it looks like he saved them all from the fire, except Kevin of course.  When someone acts heroically it's understandable to magnify the good and take an eraser to the less good that the person did.  If he was a loving husband/father and he pulled you out of a terrifying inferno, you're not going to put his faults under a microscope. 

[MsChicklet]

Things I love about this show:

1. Like Rebecca once said, it's complicated. No one wears the white hat or the black hat all the time. They have good points and foibles, can be supportive and stupid, sometimes all in the same episode. Each character has its strengths and weaknesses. Kate refused to let her dog issues get in the way of getting Audio. As much as she was doing it for Toby, it was also good for her.
2. Even though the show has the OMG ALL TEH TEARZ reputation, they weave in sly and funny moments. Like the slo-mo of Randall and Kevin going down the hall of the apartment building. Randall hikes up his sleeves to show that it's not only the Manny who has guns. And Kevin's expression when he saw that. And the old ladies sipping their tea while watching Kevin smash the wall. 

[sasha206]

3 hours ago, MsChicklet said:

I think we've seen that pretty well. Yes, Jack had issues, from the drinking to the deep need to be the Good Guy to the nasty anger.

Actually, we've barely seen it.  We've seen 90% good guy, and a nanosecond of his drinking.  Nasty anger?  That was what -- 2x?  When he argued with Rebecca about her singing career with a jazz band that included someone who had an obvious love interest and wanted to rekindle romance?  That was what -- a 2 show arc?  Maybe 3 tops?  And they painted the nasty anger as somewhat reasonable because Rebecca was hit on by the guy Jack got angry with.  And Rebecca left in anger over that (not Jack's drinking) which validated Jack's popping off in a sense.   

Imagine if they treated Kate's food addiction like Jack's alcoholism?  She's morbidly obese.  Struggles with it for 2 episodes, then bam, she's skinny again.  

My point is, for a character so flawed, we've seen hardly any of this because the show paints him as heroic, romantic, pure loving dad.  He couldn't even go on a golf outting with his friends without lecturing them all about how he wants to spend every breathing moment with his bitchy wife.  He may do wrong things, but it's always painted with good intentions.  And everyone around him is endlessly entranced with him in nearly every flashback scene.  The times they are angry at him it's usually because he's too wonderful.  And then they get over it because he's too wonderful.Hopefully the show will REALLY show a flawed character once they stop with the glorification of his tragic passing.  Hopefully they will show a man who had real demons, real struggles.  Not alcoholism that resolved itself b/c he lost his family ever so briefly.  For someone who supposedly has a lot of struggles -- mean father, PSTD, addressing the racism his son Randall has faced, etc. etc -- we've barely seen him really struggle with them.  The only way this show has legs after the death is wrapped up is if they show him as a real human being and we really show how his alcoholism affected EVERYTHING in his life over a longer period of time.  Not a short glimpse of it.  Real flashback scenes where he's an actual human being, not a super hero that just loves too much.

Edited January 28, 2018 by sasha206

[Cardie]

The show idealizes Jack as  a romantic husband and loving father and only critiques (slightly) his flaws by replicating them in his children: what addiction really looks like in Kevin and Kate. What the grand gesture looks like to a spouse and kids through Randall and his family.

[sasha206]

6 minutes ago, Cardie said:

The show idealizes Jack as  a romantic husband and loving father and only critiques (slightly) his flaws by replicating them in his children: what addiction really looks like in Kevin and Kate. What the grand gesture looks like to a spouse and kids through Randall and his family.

Agreed.  And I think that makes sense as long as we start really seeing the addiction in Jack.  There could be some grand plan of this show in which Jack is so glorified because his death was tragic and then once death is revealed, we'll start seeing them all remember the not so great, flawed Jack.  That would make the show much more interesting.  The Big 3 start addressing what is really holding them back -- Jack's tragic death has made them color him to be the perfect human and they are simply just romanticizing him and forgetting about the drunken nights he had.  The anger issues we've yet to really see.  If they start remember Jack wasn't always the eternal optimist.  And he wasn't always the hero. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by sasha206

[debraran]

33 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Agreed.  And I think that makes sense as long as we start really seeing the addiction in Jack.  There could be some grand plan of this show in which Jack is so glorified because his death was tragic and then once death is revealed, we'll start seeing them all remember the not so great, flawed Jack.  That would make the show much more interesting.  The Big 3 start addressing what is really holding them back -- Jack's tragic death has made them color him to be the perfect human and they are simply just romanticizing him and forgetting about the drunken nights he had.  The anger issues we've yet to really see.  If they start remember Jack wasn't always the eternal optimist.  And he wasn't always the hero. 

That's true. and somehow, someway, they will bring what happened to Nicky back but if it doesn't happen before Jack dies, I don't know how. He lied to them about him too, just leaving out a family member he served with.  My Dad never mentioned a brother to me until I found his picture in his drawer at 10 but my Mom knew. He died tragically on his graduation day from pneumonia at home. I think that will come as a shock as they go through his things but I find it odd it was never mentioned to Rebecca even if he said "I can't talk about it"

I hope Kate sees how much he loved her as I'm sure she does, but also how her dad wasn't fair to her, not supporting her Mom more. When he said, "Cut your mother some slack" when telling her about his drinking and she said something sarcastic about the "queen" letting him back, he should have spoke to her about respect,.

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe Jack really is just a good guy who had a drinking problem? I've unfortunately had more than a few alcoholics in my life (Grandfather and uncle, brother and ex-husband) and while two of them were mean, irresponsible and generally not good people, my uncle and my ex were both good men who just couldn't say no to a drink. Actually, they could say no to one drink, just not to a dozen. But apart from the greater sadness of watching someone you love struggle, their addictions only hurt themselves. Jack acted on his jealousies, and when he was younger, considered a pretty serious crime, but he didn't do it, and he did apologize and make amends for hurting his loved ones. And then he lead a sober, responsible life. So isn't it possible that he really is one of the success stories, and worthy of his family's adoration?

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Actually, we've barely seen it.  We've seen 90% good guy, and a nanosecond of his drinking.  Nasty anger?  That was what -- 2x?  When he argued with Rebecca about her singing career with a jazz band that included someone who had an obvious love interest and wanted to rekindle romance?  That was what -- a 2 show arc?  Maybe 3 tops?  And they painted the nasty anger as somewhat reasonable because Rebecca was hit on by the guy Jack got angry with.  And Rebecca left in anger over that (not Jack's drinking) which validated Jack's popping off in a sense.   

Imagine if they treated Kate's food addiction like Jack's alcoholism?  She's morbidly obese.  Struggles with it for 2 episodes, then bam, she's skinny again.  

My point is, for a character so flawed, we've seen hardly any of this because the show paints him as heroic, romantic, pure loving dad.  He couldn't even go on a golf outting with his friends without lecturing them all about how he wants to spend every breathing moment with his bitchy wife.  He may do wrong things, but it's always painted with good intentions.  And everyone around him is endlessly entranced with him in nearly every flashback scene.  The times they are angry at him it's usually because he's too wonderful.  And then they get over it because he's too wonderful.Hopefully the show will REALLY show a flawed character once they stop with the glorification of his tragic passing.  Hopefully they will show a man who had real demons, real struggles.  Not alcoholism that resolved itself b/c he lost his family ever so briefly.  For someone who supposedly has a lot of struggles -- mean father, PSTD, addressing the racism his son Randall has faced, etc. etc -- we've barely seen him really struggle with them.  The only way this show has legs after the death is wrapped up is if they show him as a real human being and we really show how his alcoholism affected EVERYTHING in his life over a longer period of time.  Not a short glimpse of it.  Real flashback scenes where he's an actual human being, not a super hero that just loves too much.

I think the reason we never see Jack struggling with any of his issues is because he represses his feelings.   I see his optimism and forward thinking as him refusing to think about the past.  I also think his alcoholism is part of this as well.  When Jack cannot dampen down the feelings, he turns to drinking.   Jack needs to deal with whatever happened with his brother (hopefully us viewers will get some scenes of this soon) .  

[sasha206]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe Jack really is just a good guy who had a drinking problem? I've unfortunately had more than a few alcoholics in my life (Grandfather and uncle, brother and ex-husband) and while two of them were mean, irresponsible and generally not good people, my uncle and my ex were both good men who just couldn't say no to a drink. Actually, they could say no to one drink, just not to a dozen. But apart from the greater sadness of watching someone you love struggle, their addictions only hurt themselves. Jack acted on his jealousies, and when he was younger, considered a pretty serious crime, but he didn't do it, and he did apologize and make amends for hurting his loved ones. And then he lead a sober, responsible life. So isn't it possible that he really is one of the success stories, and worthy of his family's adoration?

Agreed.  I'm not saying that because you're an alcoholic you are a total shit heel to all and you are undeserving of love and adoration.  But what you said is what I'm missing from the show "But apart from the greater sadness of watching someone you love struggle, their addictions only hurt themselves...."  Aside from that incident with Rebecca's band and the short-lived breakup, we've yet to see any family suffering or sadness of Jack's addiction.  Are we supposed to believe he was an alcoholic and no one ever knew?  Even the happiest drunks  at some point are eventually are an embarrassment.  And if he's a closet drinker, eventually the lies in order to feed your addiction catch up with you (see Kevin and his opiate addiction).

It seems like the only anger we've seen was from Kevin being upset that his dad doing his 12-step program and apologies.  The problem for me is that he went from best dad, best husband ever to terrible drunk who needs rehab and then back to bed dad ever, best husband ever, best human ever in lightning speed.  Of course, anyone conquering their demons in worthy of adoration.  But in this show, major demons so quickly without any real buildup and appear and then magically resolve themselves within an episode or two.  See also Kevin's opiate addiction.  The only major addiction they can't do that with is Kate because she can't become skinny in two episodes but at this rate, I'm surprised they don't have her going in for gastric bypass and then losing 300 pounds within a couple of episodes only to never have a food addiction ever again.

Again, my problem is the lightening speed in which their demons appear and disappear.  I don't have a problem with them casting Jack as a great guy but to me, there's so little realism in this show and the show is so manipulative to make people cry it's becoming insulting to the viewer.  I mean, the entire Pearson family makes life-altering decisions in an episode.  Quitting jobs, buying apartments, adopting, fostering, etc., miraculously beating addictions within an episode.  The men are hopeless romantics -- nearly every single male on the show is a hopeless romantic, even the side characters like the old guy who can't get rid of a jukebox -- the speeches, the big gestures.    The show had a great idea and it's still interesting to watch because I think the acting is good (with the exception of Milo and Moore who are adequate but not great).  It's an interesting premise.  But I feel the show is far too obsessed with making people cry that the character development is suffering.

Edited January 29, 2018 by sasha206

[ErinV]

On 1/25/2018 at 2:48 AM, elle said:

 

It still seems manipulative to me.  If they want to save the big episode for sweeps have it air on its regular night after the Super Bowl and before the Olympics.  But, programming monkeys...

A question for Steelers Fans - will you be rooting for the Eagles?  Fellow Pennsylvania team or deadly rival?

We’d be rooting for anyone playing the Patriots, but yes, I at least do feel a PA love for the Eagles.  And, I wear Steelers gear for every Super Bowl, too!  

[debraran]

8 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Agreed.  I'm not saying that because you're an alcoholic you are a total shit heel to all and you are undeserving of love and adoration.  But what you said is what I'm missing from the show "But apart from the greater sadness of watching someone you love struggle, their addictions only hurt themselves...."  Aside from that incident with Rebecca's band and the short-lived breakup, we've yet to see any family suffering or sadness of Jack's addiction.  Are we supposed to believe he was an alcoholic and no one ever knew?  Even the happiest drunks  at some point are eventually are an embarrassment.  And if he's a closet drinker, eventually the lies in order to feed your addiction catch up with you (see Kevin and his opiate addiction).

It seems like the only anger we've seen was from Kevin being upset that his dad doing his 12-step program and apologies.  The problem for me is that he went from best dad, best husband ever to terrible drunk who needs rehab and then back to bed dad ever, best husband ever, best human ever in lightning speed.  Of course, anyone conquering their demons in worthy of adoration.  But in this show, major demons so quickly without any real buildup and appear and then magically resolve themselves within an episode or two.  See also Kevin's opiate addiction.  The only major addiction they can't do that with is Kate because she can't become skinny in two episodes but at this rate, I'm surprised they don't have her going in for gastric I abypass and then losing 300 pounds within a couple of episodes only to never have a food addiction ever again.

Again, my problem is the lightening speed in which their demons appear and disappear.  I don't have a problem with them casting Jack as a great guy but to me, there's so little realism in this show and the show is so manipulative to make people cry it's becoming insulting to the viewer.  I mean, the entire Pearson family makes life-altering decisions in an episode.  Quitting jobs, buying apartments, adopting, fostering, etc., miraculously beating addictions within an episode.  The men are hopeless romantics -- nearly every single male on the show is a hopeless romantic, even the side characters like the old guy who can't get rid of a jukebox -- the speeches, the big gestures.    The show had a great idea and it's still interesting to watch because I think the acting is good (with the exception of Milo and Moore who are adequate but not great).  It's an interesting premise.  But I feel the show is far too obsessed with making people cry that the character development is suffering.

 

I agree. You love the "Tom Hanks" character usually, but even the real Tom Hanks has his bad side. ; )   They did bring up different scenerios with Chrissy Metz but she nixed the more extreme measure for now and even then you are dealing with a real person and their feelings, not a character. I've seen in just our medical office, 3 employees do gastric bypass and only 1 never put weight back on. one put on quite a lot, so it's not full proof and can't have a script saying how well they are doing.

A lawyer I know talks of "working alcoholics" he knows, they never fall down drunk at work, never slur their words, but you smell it on their breath at 10am or see the liquid lunches, their tolerance is higher but they can't go without it and weekends are usually worse.  I feel with Jack, there is no way as close as he and Rebecca were, she never knew, Miguel, anyone? Liquor couldn't be in the house, so where/when did he drink?

I have a friend who knows her husband who is in AA fell off the wagon. She found a can of beer hidden in trash and he seemed more laid back for a while but the breath mints, Listerine don't really work,  you always smell it, there is a difference in their persona.  I hope there is a flashback that shows as hurt as she was, she missed  a sign because denial is such a strong emotion.

It's just a TV show, but many people look at it and I feel they should show how hard it is and not make it seem like you go to therapy a month and its okay.  Jack did say how he had to keep busy, you saw him praying, etc. I think it helps more than hurts, a "saintly" image to show the truth, since all saints had struggles and weren't angels. They just worked really hard to overcome their trials. Jack and Kevin can be great guys who just need to work on their own demons.

Edited January 29, 2018 by debraran

[ShadowFacts]

10 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Again, my problem is the lightening speed in which their demons appear and disappear.  I don't have a problem with them casting Jack as a great guy but to me, there's so little realism in this show and the show is so manipulative to make people cry it's becoming insulting to the viewer.  I mean, the entire Pearson family makes life-altering decisions in an episode.  Quitting jobs, buying apartments, adopting, fostering, etc., miraculously beating addictions within an episode.  The men are hopeless romantics -- nearly every single male on the show is a hopeless romantic, even the side characters like the old guy who can't get rid of a jukebox -- the speeches, the big gestures.    The show had a great idea and it's still interesting to watch because I think the acting is good (with the exception of Milo and Moore who are adequate but not great).  It's an interesting premise.  But I feel the show is far too obsessed with making people cry that the character development is suffering.

I totally agree with your last sentence.  The lightning speed of demons appearing and disappearing -- that happens in lots of shows.  It would be too much of a drag and repetitive to see an alcohol or drug dependent character continually messing up or getting in trouble, so the writers have a few gut-punching scenes and move on.  Not realistic, but I'm not necessarily tuning in for a reality show, I don't like that genre.  In Jack's case, he had a bout of drinking when the kids were young, Rebecca noticed and objected, he stopped for years.  People can do that.  Then he went back to it when the kids were teens, it caused disruption, he dealt with it, and then his life was tragically cut short.  Kevin has only been dealing with his dependency for a couple months.   He had a big meltdown, a DUI arrest, and probably at least a month in rehab.  Now he's just been out a short time, and is working his program.  If that's the last we see or hear of it, that will be a writing failure.  Randall has been apparently dealing with William's death quietly for several months, since last spring.  The fostering process happened in TV speed but he didn't just think of it one day.  He impulsively bought a building but seemingly can afford it, Beth did not object on those grounds and is a partner in it.  The character whose demons could more easily be examined is Kate, because she looks to be "stuck" in her weight.  Yet we have seen her progress in several ways, in a pretty solid pairing with Toby, letting her mother closer, surmounting the pain of the dog memories.  To bring it back to this episode, I liked that Kevin is putting in effort, he didn't just mope when he found himself home alone, he went to his brother and got busy.  The two of them even talked about their dad, which we don't see much.  Kevin is looking inward instead of quashing memories and emotions and that's some character development, but I agree the show could use more. 

[cardigirl]

Rewatched the promo, and there is a part that shows Rebecca fumbling for things on the dresser in a smoky bedroom, dressed in her Steelers jersey. So I guess she does take the time to put the jersey back on before getting out of the house.  

[sasha206]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I totally agree with your last sentence.  The lightning speed of demons appearing and disappearing -- that happens in lots of shows.  It would be too much of a drag and repetitive to see an alcohol or drug dependent character continually messing up or getting in trouble, so the writers have a few gut-punching scenes and move on.  Not realistic, but I'm not necessarily tuning in for a reality show, I don't like that genre.  In Jack's case, he had a bout of drinking when the kids were young, Rebecca noticed and objected, he stopped for years.  People can do that.  Then he went back to it when the kids were teens, it caused disruption, he dealt with it, and then his life was tragically cut short.  Kevin has only been dealing with his dependency for a couple months.   He had a big meltdown, a DUI arrest, and probably at least a month in rehab.  Now he's just been out a short time, and is working his program.  If that's the last we see or hear of it, that will be a writing failure.  Randall has been apparently dealing with William's death quietly for several months, since last spring.  The fostering process happened in TV speed but he didn't just think of it one day.  He impulsively bought a building but seemingly can afford it, Beth did not object on those grounds and is a partner in it.  The character whose demons could more easily be examined is Kate, because she looks to be "stuck" in her weight.  Yet we have seen her progress in several ways, in a pretty solid pairing with Toby, letting her mother closer, surmounting the pain of the dog memories.  To bring it back to this episode, I liked that Kevin is putting in effort, he didn't just mope when he found himself home alone, he went to his brother and got busy.  The two of them even talked about their dad, which we don't see much.  Kevin is looking inward instead of quashing memories and emotions and that's some character development, but I agree the show could use more. 

I hear you.  I'm not expecting a show to drag on and on a storyline for realism sake, but I feel like the show too often makes Jack the supposedly flawed human whom everyone, EVERYONE (with the exception of Rebecca's bandmate) thinks is near-perfection to the point that all must worship at his feet.  And the rare instances when this doesn't happen (Kevin as a teen), the character is portrayed often as a selfish jerk (Kevin throughout the series).

But I'm hoping the real hook to this show is how our memories of someone we love is clouded by their death.  I am a widow; my husband passed away a year ago.  I can relate to the Big 3 and this show in the sense that when you deal with loss, your memories and your grief is centered on how much you miss them so you view all memories with rose-colored glasses.  Every now and then I'll remember a not so great time and then feel guilty for thinking well, I'm glad I'm not dealing with that anymore.  My hope is as the Big 3 grow that we start seeing a bit more of the Jack alcholism reality -- how exactly did it impact him?  Did he ever struggle at work?  Did the kids actually know he was closet drinking and suppressed those memories?  The one element of the show I appreciated was when Kevin was irritated with his dad on not letting Miguel be human for more than a minute so he could grieve his divorce.  *That* was realistic.  No one wants a constant cheerleader who doesn't give their loved ones the space to properly grieve something that feels tragic to them.  

[Sandman]

On 1/26/2018 at 1:21 PM, GSMHvisitor said:

So was teen Kevin basically belittling Jack and Rebecca's ordinary life when he said "You don't get it, I was supposed to be in the Super Bowl, not watch it like you two."? Did I read that right or did he mean something else?

I think Kevin was belittling them, and I'm sure that's what Jack meant when he wrote in his note "You owe us an apology." (My only contribution to the discussion about how the show treats Jack as a candidate for sainthood will be to say I think that it's the impulse of a genuinely kind person to write a note to his child which points out the need for apology, but -- first and foremost -- puts "I love you" in that message as well.)

Edited January 29, 2018 by Sandman

[ShadowFacts]

sasha206, I am sorry you have experienced the loss of your husband. 

[sasha206]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

sasha206, I am sorry you have experienced the loss of your husband. 

Aw, thank you so much!  

[Pallas]

11 hours ago, debraran said:

Liquor couldn't be in the house, so where/when did he drink?

We saw: at work, and between jobs. Jack drank at the office, and he worked two or three jobs. He also could have popped into a bar for a shot or two before heading home each day, as he'd done when the kids were young. (Maybe at some no-name establishment in Pittsburgh, barflies cheered "Jack!" each time he walked in the door. Then wondered what happened to the guy.) After some time, Jack might also have hidden a bottle in his woodshop at home. He may still have been able not to drink over the weekends, but he was probably losing that battle -- one reason he finally told Rebecca, when he did. He couldn't keep it up. He thought he couldn't be home and not drink until drunk every night.

Do most alcoholics come clean with themselves and their partners and get help, before everyone near them suspects? No. But it happens, sometimes, rarely: before it becomes impossible to stop drinking until drunk on any occasion, after the first drink or even sip.

12 hours ago, debraran said:

I hope there is a flashback that shows as hurt as she was, she missed  a sign because denial is such a strong emotion.

Me too. Not to discredit Rebecca -- but to show how her need for it not to be true, again, right when the kids were about to leave them, and she was trying to figure out her own life, kept her from seeing what was happening. (Just as Kate and Sophie acknowledged that they missed seeing Kevin's very quick descent.) And some part of Rebecca was waiting for permission to be aware: as soon as Jack told her, she didn't try, even briefly, to assure both of them that he was exaggerating, or that he could handle this alone. She let herself know what she knew, then did what she did.

[kili]

Quote

I think the reason we never see Jack struggling with any of his issues is because he represses his feelings.   I see his optimism and forward thinking as him refusing to think about the past.  I also think his alcoholism is part of this as well.  When Jack cannot dampen down the feelings, he turns to drinking.   Jack needs to deal with whatever happened with his brother (hopefully us viewers will get some scenes of this soon) . 

I think this trait of Jack's is one of his worst. His "Forget your troubles and put on a sunny face" just papers over the problems without fixing them. When the problems don't get addressed, you end up with issues like him becoming an alcoholic. He taught this behavior to the entire family and his death cemented it. 

It is why Randall is running around desperately looking for a fix - try to adopt a kid, try to find his father's girlfriend, try to fix a building.  His problem is that he is not rooted and he is grieving his father. Maybe address that. Kate's weight issues are bound up in the death of her father, but she can't even talk about the subject. Kevin has an entire host of problems and he was lucky to find a therapist who forced him to face it. When she brought up the topic of Jack being an alcoholic with the family, Kate shut down, Randall lashed out angrily and Rebecca became distraught.  You can't point out Jack's faults. No fly zone!

There is optimism and moving on and there is the pathological level to which Jack takes it. I think Kevin will be the first to break ranks because even as a child, he saw that his dad wasn't perfect. He was the one who told him to let Miguel wallow for a while.

This is like the Pixar movie "Inside Out". Jack is "Joy" desperately trying to keep everything happy until she realizes the importance of all the emotions.

[debraran]

2 hours ago, kili said:

I think this trait of Jack's is one of his worst. His "Forget your troubles and put on a sunny face" just papers over the problems without fixing them. When the problems don't get addressed, you end up with issues like him becoming an alcoholic. He taught this behavior to the entire family and his death cemented it. 

It is why Randall is running around desperately looking for a fix - try to adopt a kid, try to find his father's girlfriend, try to fix a building.  His problem is that he is not rooted and he is grieving his father. Maybe address that. Kate's weight issues are bound up in the death of her father, but she can't even talk about the subject. Kevin has an entire host of problems and he was lucky to find a therapist who forced him to face it. When she brought up the topic of Jack being an alcoholic with the family, Kate shut down, Randall lashed out angrily and Rebecca became distraught.  You can't point out Jack's faults. No fly zone!

There is optimism and moving on and there is the pathological level to which Jack takes it. I think Kevin will be the first to break ranks because even as a child, he saw that his dad wasn't perfect. He was the one who told him to let Miguel wallow for a while.

This is like the Pixar movie "Inside Out". Jack is "Joy" desperately trying to keep everything happy until she realizes the importance of all the emotions.

That's very true. Kevin was a surly kid but he saw things with his spectrum and his truth.  The line with Miguel and being able to just say something sucks was true.  He just touched on it a little.  He tried to tell them in the pool, when they'd talk about Kate and her weight, when Jack would just start playing with Kate instead of Kevin as he did at the cabin, even wanting him to embrace community college. Sure, that's the cards life gave him, Jack's speech at the hospital was fine,but Kevin needed to mourn and not be Pollyanna overnight. Sometimes you can't make it perfect as a parent, but you can validate the person's feelings, let them vent and tell them you are there when they want to regroup. It wouldn't surprise me if Kevin knew his Dad was drinking.

I look forward to the peeling off of the layers of the three that couldn't be seen because of the mystery of Jack's death. I think that was the only bad point in the whole series, that they let his death hype to the point that it would  keep the 3 of them young and anxious, just to keep this secret. That part I don't get. He was dead from day one, how he died, how his heart stopped beating, shouldn't be greater than the development of the others and please show all his layers, all his faults, how he indulged Kate, lied to them on occasion, was impulsive, but his core was good, he always loved them.  And I hope we see more of who Rebecca is without Jack, who she became when she had to stand on her own.  We will still see flashbacks but I hope more layers from these wonderful actors. I think in some ways, the show will get even better now.

Edited January 30, 2018 by debraran

[MBayGal]

On 1/26/2018 at 11:37 AM, luna1122 said:

Am I the only one who used to (before I had a slow cooker with an insert) just put the whole thing in the fridge, if there were leftovers? probably. And I have most definitely now put the insert with leftovers in the fridge, and left the turn-off crockpot plugged in on the counter. And I wouldn't even notice if there was a dish towel near it. I'm a mess, I guess.

I think Kevin and Charlotte both took advantage of one another, both with creepy results.

There would never be enough room in our fridge to put a crock pot in!  Otherwise my husband might just do that.  

[breezy424]

The episode just left me....huh?  First, I don't get just having one smoke alarm in a home that has three floors.  1997 wasn't the dark ages and it just surprises me that a family with three children weren't aware enough to make sure all the living floors had them.  I had them.  They weren't all that expensive.  We had one on the first floor, two on the second floor and then two in the two attic spaces.  I can give leeway but that was a writer stretch.

As for the crock pot...if you're not using an appliance, unplug it.  Especially one with a faulty switch.  Again, a writer stretch IMO.  If people are throwing out old crock pots, good for them.  But a decent crock pot is no more going to cause a fire than any other of the many things we keep plugged in all the time.  You can't turn off all your electric when you're not there.  You can't unplug your fridge, etc.  An incandescent light bulb can cause a fire if the wattage is too high for the lamp.  Your furnace can catch fire.  The list goes on. 

The problem with Jack is that all these characters see Jack as 'perfect'.  We, the viewer, see that he's not.  They want to believe the fantasy of 'Jack' because he died young and unexpectedly.  He is untouchable in their eyes.  The truth is that Jack had a lot of faults.  I think Kevin is the one who truly knows this.

This is being so stretched out I really don't care about how Jack 'died' anymore.  Season One was really good.  Season two seems like it's become an ego trip with everyone involved, especially the writers' and producers',  heads.  I'm kinda of seeing a Derek from Grey's Anatomy demise ending for Jack.  He does something 'heroic' and then his death is cause by a freak incident.  I could be wrong. 

[kili]

Quote

First, I don't get just having one smoke alarm in a home that has three floors.  1997 wasn't the dark ages and it just surprises me that a family with three children weren't aware enough to make sure all the living floors had them.  I had them.  They weren't all that expensive.  We had one on the first floor, two on the second floor and then two in the two attic spaces.  I can give leeway but that was a writer stretch.

It is not all that uncommon to hear a news report about a fire and the statement that the home had "no working fire alarms". Do a google search for that term in the news (or "no working smoke alarms") and you will see it is not a writer's stretch...it is a sad reality. According to the National Fire Protection Agency, 3 out of 5 home fire deaths in the US occurred in homes without working fire alarms (2009-2013).  I don't know anybody who doesn't wear seatbelts, they come standard in every car, yet almost half of US car crash fatalities weren't wearing seatbelts. People still smoke. So, I don't find the lack of a working fire alarm in the Pearson house that much of a stretch. 

Quote

As for the crock pot...if you're not using an appliance, unplug it.  Especially one with a faulty switch.  Again, a writer stretch IMO.

I unplug small appliances, but a lot of people do not (this reminds me about the debate about not turning off your car radio we had in the "Things That Happen on TV but Not in Real Life" thread - some were insistent that nobody ever does that in real life (leaves the car radio on when they turn off the car), while many of us admitted that we do do that). Plus, it was late and he probably wasn't thinking.

If you look at accidents, there tends to be a lot of little things that unluckily combine together to make a really bad thing happen. 

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, breezy424 said:

This is being so stretched out I really don't care about how Jack 'died' anymore.  Season One was really good.  Season two seems like it's become an ego trip with everyone involved, especially the writers' and producers',  heads.  I'm kinda of seeing a Derek from Grey's Anatomy demise ending for Jack.  He does something 'heroic' and then his death is cause by a freak incident.  I could be wrong. 

Truth is, I never cared about how Jack died. I've always just been interested in the family dynamics, and revealing the influences past events had on the present day family. I don't watch or listen to any of the writer's and producer's - or for that matter, actors' - comments, except what I see here in the forum. I spend too much time as it is, watching tv and following shows in the forums. So I'm mostly blissfully unaware and able to watch each episode on its own merits. 

[Sandman]

14 hours ago, kili said:

His problem is that he is not rooted and he is grieving his father.

I agree that Randall is grieving for a lot of things that are going unaddressed, but I'm not sure that I know what you mean by "not rooted." He doesn't have a corporate job anymore, but he has stable and loving relationships with his wife and daughters and sister, and his relationships with his mother and brother are, I think, opening up. Part of Randall's response to grief and uncertainty is to try to be better -- to try always to be good. Not all of the Big Three's Big Problems can simply be laid at Jack's door.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Sandman

[luna1122]

I leave a blender, a toaster and a coffee maker plugged in at all times on my countertop. I'm probably courting disaster.

I do think it would much more interesting if we saw that everyone is idealizing Jack because he died so young, which I understand, but saw more cracks in his armor than just his alcoholism. I wouldn't want it to go TOO dark, but the Deification of Saint Jack gets a little boring. I think the writers and show runners actually really do idealize him tho. I fully believe really good men and women exist in the world, I don't want it revealed that Jack was a cheater or was secretly embezzling work funds or had a second family somewhere, but just...acknowledge that his Band-Aid approach to problems didn't really work. That he sublimated issues instead of dealing with them. That he undercut his wife's ideas and opinions and discipline of their kids in order to make everybody 'happy'. I doubt that's going to happen tho.

[zapper]

I agree with you Luna - at least to the point of Jack undercutting Rebecca's disciplining of the kids more than once.   She'll be unsuccessfully trying to get them to behave/respect/settle and he'll waltz in and suggest a trip to the ice cream parlour. or something else that is fun, redirects the situation and completely throws Rebecca under the bus.

maybe his solution is the better one, certainly it seems to be the one that works, but he should be doing it with his wife, not around his wife.

"United Front" is what my wife and I learned in marriage prep. It's a good approach, and a self embarrassment when I forget it.

[kili]

Quote

I agree that Randall is grieving for a lot of things that are going unaddressed, but I'm not sure that I know what you mean by "not rooted." 

He seems to be casting around for something to make his life seem more meaningful. I agree that he has strong family roots (his family is nearly perfect and Beth is a rock), but he seems adrift in himself. His real father was not who he thought he would be - remember that he showed up expecting just to tell of a ne'er do well and he found somebody worth knowing - somebody with a story to tell. Then, he found out that his beloved mother had lied to him all his life upsetting what he knew to be true. Both shook him to the core of who he thought he was and what he wanted to be (remember he started wondering if  he had any artistic ability?). He's quit his job which used to give him so much focus and he is trying to find a new focus all the while trying to remain perfect and happy. 

Randall needs to take time to unpack all that baggage and recenter himself, but Life-According-to-Jack is that you just move forward with a happy face. If Jack's life was a car, he would take out the rear view mirror. What's behind you doesn't matter....but it does.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

Jack was a good person, but he had a past where he almost committed a crime, he hid his alcoholism, he wasn't perfect, but a very good person who had good intentions. We all should try to be that way. If he wasn't so cute (to some) I'm sure the saintly part would ebb a little. ; )

My sentiments exactly. I've never seen Jack as SaintJack. He is just someone who simply loves his wife and his children and someone who is loved by his children, wife and best friend. As many viewers on this site and other fan boards mention his impulsiveness, alcoholism, and general selfishness. I hardly would attribute those qualities to sainthood. I think the nature of the show's format makes it difficult to show any long term progression in his battle with the alcoholism. He had been attending AA meetings, called his sponsor when he needed to and kept busy to avoid drinking. What more do we need to see? He had fallen off the wagon, which we witnessed. I also think we have yet to see how Jack's flaws do effect his family negatively. I think that is yet to come.

[debraran]

7 hours ago, zapper said:

I agree with you Luna - at least to the point of Jack undercutting Rebecca's disciplining of the kids more than once.   She'll be unsuccessfully trying to get them to behave/respect/settle and he'll waltz in and suggest a trip to the ice cream parlour. or something else that is fun, redirects the situation and completely throws Rebecca under the bus.

maybe his solution is the better one, certainly it seems to be the one that works, but he should be doing it with his wife, not around his wife.

"United Front" is what my wife and I learned in marriage prep. It's a good approach, and a self embarrassment when I forget it.

It's hard to do, but that is the best way. Every time you make one the 'bad guy" it hurts the kid unless it really is unreasonable requests.  Being a "great dad" was shown in other ways, Jack filming Kate, but not taking her for icecream daily (!) and saying fruit wasn't a good idea, she can ask her mom to change costumes, I'm sure the list goes on. Rebecca was her Mom not a doormat.  Everyone wants their kids to think they are top dog but it comes with a price many times. I remember a young friend of my daughters, spoiled rotten by her Dad and she said one day, to me, "he does that because he is gone a lot" She looked wistful and said she just wished he was home more. I never forgot that.

I wonder why Fogleman is teasing about Randall now? http://www.tvguide.com/news/this-is-us-not-killing-randall-this-season/

After all his awards and the show isn't This is Us without all 3, at least to me, why not just say, I can't see that in the future, we love Sterling. Something about a raise get brought up??  ; )

[sasha206]

On 1/30/2018 at 6:27 PM, Aloeonatable said:

My sentiments exactly. I've never seen Jack as SaintJack. He is just someone who simply loves his wife and his children and someone who is loved by his children, wife and best friend. As many viewers on this site and other fan boards mention his impulsiveness, alcoholism, and general selfishness. I hardly would attribute those qualities to sainthood. I think the nature of the show's format makes it difficult to show any long term progression in his battle with the alcoholism. He had been attending AA meetings, called his sponsor when he needed to and kept busy to avoid drinking. What more do we need to see? He had fallen off the wagon, which we witnessed. I also think we have yet to see how Jack's flaws do effect his family negatively. I think that is yet to come.

No, he's not a saint.  But he's being treated as a near-saint by nearly all the characters on the show, even by his best friend who married his widow which is my annoyance.  And I feel like the writers go overboard on the rah-rah I love my family, I love my wife in every show.  The worst offender was the golf outting with his buddies in which they got lectured for wanting time away from their spouses.  It's just a little over the top.  I feel like the writers are telling me the character is flawed but aren't really showing me the character is flawed and instead are romanticizing him -- and nearly every male on the show -- as the man they think women want.  The gestures, the speeches.  Nearly every male character -- even the ancillary ones -- are these overly sentimental fools.

Edited February 1, 2018 by sasha206

[WhosThatGirl]

I haven’t posted in this episode forum yet but last week the day after  after this episode aired, my crockpot broke. Just saying.

Also this episode. I feel like I’m going to cry on Sunday.

[MsChicklet]

I posted on social media that Facebook needs to have a "Mark Yourself Safe" button for those of us making chili in our crockpots for the Super Bowl.