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S01.E11: The Wolf Inside

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Do they have transwarp beaming on the PrimeUniverse Discovery ?  That would have come in really handy in previous episodes.
Because the Discovery is no where near the Shenzhou at this point -- Discovery was stuck in some debris field with power issues while the Shenzhou headed to Hurlak (spelling ?). 

And at what point did Burnham tell Saru of her plan ?  Because Burnham confirming Ash was indeed Voq just happened moments before he was beamed into space.

Georgiou was the Emperor. was a non-surprise.  Except, if the Emperor was some nameless, faceless person as Burnham indicated previously in the episode, how did everyone know that was the Emperor's holo-image on the Shenzhou bridge ?  Was it the outfit ?

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So Ash is Voq. Not a surprise, but I still feel bad for Ash and all his endless suffering. 

Why didn’t Suru and Tilley have some medical people on standby while they futzed with poor Stamets?

I still don’t understand how Goatee Spock gets aboard the ISS Enterprise. His presence is just too iconic to handwave away.

Other then those nitpick, great episode.

Edited by marinw
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Pretty much everything that was suppose to be a "surprise" was guessed by everyone I've encountered lol. 

This show is mainly cinema/costume porn to me. Love the look of the show, the costumes are GREAT (they need to get this costume designer on some Superhero shows ASAP). 

Love the Emperors look, so badass.

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So Tyler is Voq and the Emperor is Georgiou which many of us saw coming.

Burnham transporting Tyler back to Discovery was brilliant.

Stamets is not having to do much to earn his paycheck lately. I do hope that we see him do more next week.

I'm hoping that the rebels did make it out in time before the bombing. 

After the show's very shaky start, this has actually turned out to be interesting after all. I'm glad because it's bloody Star Trek so it should be great!

Edited by AEMom · Reason: Typo
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1 hour ago, marinw said:

I still don’t understand how Goatee Spock gets aboard the ISS Enterprise. His presence is just too iconic to handwave away.

The Vulcans must have developed the Agony Booth technology years ago...Spock defected to the Empire with the schematics....

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I was hoping that the Emperor would have been someone else.

No one has noticed the mirror Enterprise in that universe? How can that be? No crew of mirrorfolk on that ship or any Captain's logs or the Terrans encountering something unusual?

I thought it was Spock but maybe thought I was mistaken. Maybe it was from his Christopher Pike days.

This is a better series than Enterprise, even though the show did have the cute beagle.

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Whelp, it's official!  Tyler is actually Voq thanks to some kind of creepy, experiment shit.  Klingons are freaky!  Not sure how Michael found the time to tell Saru all of this before the entire fake execution thing, but I'm curious to see how this will change things.  At least they no longer think Stamets accidentally killed Culber, because I can only imagine the guilt he would have felt if he was told that if/when he wakes up.

So, Alt-Saru is a slave aboard the ship.  Poor guy.

Glad to see Alt-Sarek is rocking the goatee as well.  It makes James Frain look even more sinister!

The Emperor is Georgiou!

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7 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

I was hoping that the Emperor would have been someone else.

No one has noticed the mirror Enterprise in that universe? How can that be? No crew of mirrorfolk on that ship or any Captain's logs or the Terrans encountering something unusual?

I thought it was Spock but maybe thought I was mistaken. Maybe it was from his Christopher Pike days.

This is a better series than Enterprise, even though the show did have the cute beagle.

I would have preferred someone else as Emperor as well, like Empress Hoshi Sato III or something like that.

In ST: TOS, only 4 members of the PrimeUniverse (Kirk, Uhura, Scott, and McCoy) crossed over to the MirrorUniverse -- but that event doesn't occur for another 10-12 years in the PrimeUniverse timeline.

Since when did Tilly take vast amounts of medical training ? Did she take the Starfleet Medical extensions program ?
As mentioned upthread, they really should have had medical personnel standing by in case Cadet Tilly (she is, after all, just a cadet) accidentally killed Stammets.

ETA: Corrected since McCoy went to the MirrorUniverse instead of Chekov, and Uhura's name was spelled wrong.

Edited by ottoDbusdriver
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4 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

In ST: TOS, only 4 members of the PrimeUniverse (Kirk, Uhua, Scott, and Chekhov) crossed over to the MirrorUniverse -- but that event doesn't occur for another 10-12 years in the PrimeUniverse timeline.

Chekhov never crossed over.  McCoy was the fourth member of the Prime away team that crossed over.

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Just now, legaleagle53 said:

Chekhov never crossed over.  McCoy was the fourth member of the Prime away team that crossed over.

That's right -- McCoy lingered in Sick Bay during the escape to save Spock. My bad.

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Not a fanboy of anything so much as to blind me to bad storytelling. I managed the first set of episodes despite intergalactic travel via *shudder* 'space fungus' (oh god). Now we got this crew member/loverboy who constantly sweats, has the DT heebeejeebees by way of some klingon voodoo and yet is trusted with assignments. Who writes this crap.

Aside from that, when he first came onto the scene I thought loverboy was played by Ralph Macchio. C'mon, tell me he don't look like him, lol

Edited by 100Proof
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I'm not seeing how it's impossible for Tyler to be a trusted crew member. He came off as put together in front of just about everyone else. The times he did have symptoms in front of others, Burnham vouched for him. Considering her background, I'm inclined to believe that she would be believed. Burnham knows that he's dealing with some issues, but she wants to support him and believe that he'll deal with his issues/that it won't intervene. She is also clouded by emotion as well. She wants to believe him because they are close and she has feelings for him. Just like Culber covering for Stamets because of their personal relationship and Culber insisted to stay Stamets' doctor due to their personal relationship. 

 

I believe Tilly assisted with the Spore Drive, which is how she had working knowledge of certain things. 

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13 hours ago, marinw said:

 

I still don’t understand how Goatee Spock gets aboard the ISS Enterprise. His presence is just too iconic to handwave away.

 

In the TOS episode, it's strongly implied that Vulcans are at least collaborators with the Terran Empire. Mirror Spock tells Mirror Sulu that in the event of Mirror Spock's death, his operatives would avenge him...and some of them are Vulcans...that last bit meant to be extra intimidating. 

This implies that Vulcans have enough freedom to operate effectively, and are permitted to avenge Mirror Spock's death by killing a Terran Starfleet Officer.

What makes this interesting is that Spock is probably not the only Vulcan who has determined that the Empire can't last; they are "going along" with it for lack of a logical alternative. Kirk attempts to convince Mirror Spock that there is an alternative.

It's really Enterprise that established the Empire as a Terrans only club where Vulcans were enslaved. Discovery is clearly following that line.

You can fanwank that somehow Vulcans get a boost in status in 10 years, accept that the canon contradicts itself, or theorize that the Enterprise/Discovery mirror universe is a different universe from the mirror universe in TOS. (FWIW, the DS9 mirror universe is explicitly said to be the same one from TOS).

ETA: OTOH, I have a wild ass guess on how they could fix this, in the speculation thread, if anyone is interested in that sort of thing.

11 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

I am still waiting for a visit to Talos IV.

Then they really would have to beam someone into space. In Kirk's day, 10 years later, it is still a death penalty offense to go there. (Not that the writers of Discovery lose sleep over ignoring those sorts of details).

Edited by Latverian Diplomat
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Before there's any nitpicking of the science, IIRC, we know the human body can survive at least 30 seconds in the pure vacuum of space. A couple of cosmonauts were once in an airlock accident  for at least that long, and lived. They reported that they burped and farted a lot, and the last thing they remembered before losing consciousness was the sensation of their saliva boiling off their tongues. But they lived. It's not like some movies where the body just instantly explodes. 

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I don't think the Disco crew knows that Tyler is Voq, I think they just figured out that he was in the room when Culber was killed and Stamets was still strapped to the bio-bed. And of course, Tyler/Voq is going to be put in a cell right next to L'Rell. Can't see anything going wrong with that plan, especially since we've already seen Burnham literally talk the computer into letting her go and she wasn't the chief of security.

Speaking of Stamets being strapped down, he dies and they just leave him in the chamber? Was it in his last will and testament or something?

Tyler turning into Voq was reminiscent of Angel turning into Angelus in Buffy.

I thought we were going to have a Saru-switcheroo but it turns out slave-Saru is just overly devoted and not especially respectful of the Captain's privacy.

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2 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I thought we were going to have a Saru-switcheroo but it turns out slave-Saru is just overly devoted and not especially respectful of the Captain's privacy.

Dude has more naked time with Burnham than Ash/Voq does!!!!!! Every Day!!!

Edited by paigow
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That was quite an interesting expression on Lorca when observing Burnam's reaction to the appearance of Emperor Georgiou.

I am not sure what to make of it, but it was a hmmmmmmmmmmm sort of moment. 

It looks like "Ash" will be full on Voq from here on in with his true inner Klingon having asserted itself. 

Also, I am going to have to rewatch that bit where Stamets appears to have met his "Mirror" counterpart. I did not catch the words that Mirror Stamets said to Prime Stamets. Would this mean that Mirror Stamets was already aware of Discovery's presence??...through some form of mental link?

Edited by CanadaPhil
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So has Lorca been in the Agony Booth the whole time, or does Michael let him stay in a normal cell? This show has more torture porn than almost anything I’ve watched since 24.

It's nice that Sarak is a good guy in both universes. Some people are more influenced by their circumstances than others.

Edited by marinw
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10 minutes ago, CanadaPhil said:

That was quite an interesting expression on Lorca when observing Burnam's reaction to the appearance of Emperor Georgiou.

I am not sure what to make of it, but it was a hmmmmmmmmmmm sort of moment. 

It looks like "Ash" will be full on Voq from here on in with his true inner Klingon having asserted itself. 

Lorca almost seemed to half smile a Burnham's bow. That and the unexpected hand holding makes me pretty sure that there is so much more going on with Lorca than the obvious. That and his coming straight out with the 'the ends justify the means' and the lampshading of that statement - the dude isn't our Starfleet. There's just no way. He's mirror Lorca. He's hoping to see Burnham kill Georgiou and have his revenge on the Empire, and then use the mirror universe info to end the Klingon war - thereby in his view, saving both universes from calamity. I don't think he's actually evil.

I expect AshVoq to battle both sides from now on, making what to do with him a complicated dilemma for everyone. Michael has really grown though, a  little while she'd have killed him for real, love connection or not. Still, it was a massive betrayal. I had to laugh, because the 'Previously' pretty much confirmed that he was Voq, so we were definitely supposed to know that already. They don't think we're dumb. But yes, as someone said, this is so Angel/Buffy. Of course Ash only goes bad right after their relationship becomes sexual. 

Stamets meeting Stamets was interesting, and I hope we get to see real-Stamets' original personality back soon. I miss that guy.

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Interesting that Burnham referred to what she's doing in the mirror universe as passing. It adds a whole other subtext wrt her Earth-based history as a Black woman. And wrt Tyler's relationship with her and the rest of the Discovery crew--at least until his cover was blown.

TMW you realize your boyfriend is an enemy sleeper agent. Who's going to kill you. Poor Burnham. (But they are going to figure out a way to "fix" Ash, right? They were such a cute couple.)

What was that little smirk Lorca made when Burnham was bowing to the Emperor? Shady MF.

Golf claps to everyone who guessed that Georgiou would be the Emperor. But Ash = Voq? Who didn't see that coming down Broadway?

Edited by Joimiaroxeu
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Wow, very intense episode... Loved everything about the Voq/Ash stuff, including the way he found out. I'm glad Michael found a way to save his life, because in spite of everything, having to say the word would have destroyed an important part of her. And also because I still want to see if the writers come up with an explanation of why there were human-like klingons all around the galaxy ten years later.

Now that they know more about the Mirror Universe, it's a bit weird that Starfleet didn't seem to have any data of it in its databases by the time Kirk went there.  Regarding the Vulcans, maybe they decided that since defeating the Terran Empire was impossible, the logical thing to do was joining them, and that's why we found Spock and other Vulcans aboard the I.S.S. Enterprise. Although tbh, Mirror!Spock's existence (and rank) makes more sense in a universe where Terrans and Vulcans have had some sort of arrangements for some decades. 

Mirror!Stamets can't be good news. 

Sometimes in this show, things happen in a certain way just because the plot wouldn't work otherwise. The thing is, Ash didn't tell anyone the truth about Michael, not even when he was about to be executed. I don't know if he thought no one would believe him, if it was something about his klingon honour, if he still has some feelings for her or if the writers needed him to keep his mouth closed and that's it. 

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7 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Regarding the Vulcans, maybe they decided that since defeating the Terran Empire was impossible, the logical thing to do was joining them, and that's why we found Spock and other Vulcans aboard the I.S.S. Enterprise. Although tbh, Mirror!Spock's existence (and rank) makes more sense in a universe where Terrans and Vulcans have had some sort of arrangements for some decades. 

That is excellent reasoning,  @Helena Dax . Vulcans are (as a group) too logical to fight for a seemingly hopeless cause. It is even possible mirror Sarek eventually brokers the arrangement that allows Mirror Spock to serve on the Enterprise,

Edited by marinw

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3 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

That was quite an interesting expression on Lorca when observing Burnam's reaction to the appearance of Emperor Georgiou.

Yeah, Jason Isaacs is amazing. That one look, more than all his shady actions to date, confirmed that he is up to something and that, in some way, things are working out the way he wants them to. Despite the fact that he's been tortured nearly non-stop (for what, a week now?), in the scenes where he was talking to Burnham, he looked rough but in control. When Burnham called him on how his suffering might be affecting his judgment, I got the sense that he realized that she wasn't quite right, but that it had taken its toll on his ability to manipulate. The "sometimes the ends justify the means" was totally in-character, but if he were in better shape he would have slow-walked Burnham to this conclusion, perhaps tying it in with Vulcan needs-of-the-many philosophy. I think his "Hurry back . . . please." was genuine, though. Whatever he is up to, the dude doesn't want his only "allies" to get bumped off on a benighted peace mission, leaving him stuck in an agony booth indefinitely. And, though Burnham's optimism was touching, the plan did seem pretty awful: let's go chat with people who regard me as their mortal enemy and will likely shoot us on sight! Had MirrorSarek not been there, they'd be toast!

Is it just me, or is MirrorVoq a way better character than either PrimeVoq or Ash Tyler? Can we just keep him? PrimeVoq is a bit whiny and put-upon for a Klingon, and Tyler spouts romantic banalities ("you're my tether"). But MirrorVoq seems comfortable in his own skin and gets stuff done!

As for the turnabout in Vulcan alliances, perhaps it's not as extreme as it appears. Spock is half human. Maybe MirrorSpock -- estranged from Sarak -- embraced his Terran half, politically at least. He was grudgingly accepted at first, then proved himself to be ridiculously competent. By the time the Vulcans gave up the fight and allied with the Terrans, he was already in place and now could advance higher. His comment about how some of his associates who would avenge him are Vulcans appeals to the lingering fear that humans might hold toward their recent enemies. 

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20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

The thing is, Ash didn't tell anyone the truth about Michael, not even when he was about to be executed. I don't know if he thought no one would believe him, if it was something about his klingon honour, if he still has some feelings for her or if the writers needed him to keep his mouth closed and that's it. 

I wondered about that, too, and thought the story was so outlandish he knew they would think he was just trying to last-minute talk his way out of his death sentence. It could also be that in the universe they are in, Michael is the one acting to save Klingons while the rest of Mirror!Disco is trying to kill them, so in this universe why would he betray her and help the enemy. 

 

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What was that little smirk Lorca made when Burnham was bowing to the Emperor? Shady MF.

I didn't see a smirk at all—that looked to me like he was trying to think his way through this new wrinkle, and it's a big one. The immediate issues are that the Emperor is currently displeased with Michael and that she is expecting Lorca handed over to her tout de suite for torture/death. Lorca also knows Michael has huge guilt around Prime!Georgiou's death and having to face Mirror!Georgiou will be difficult for her to act on dispassionately.

 

Acting Captain Saru is rocking it, especially with Tyler at the end. We have four "captains" now—Lorca, Saru, Michael, and Tilly, and command looks good on all of them. (Okay, Tilly is very much putting on an act in short bursts, but she pulls it off.)

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I may have missed something, how did Lorca learn about the Emporer? Burnham was on the bridge when the Emperor appeared, and I'm assuming Lorca is still in his holding cell. Did they setup a communication line I don't remember?

Also just noticed...I don't think I've seen a single blonde haired male or female on the show. Unless maybe there was one in the party scene a few episodes back. 

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1 minute ago, Colorado David said:

I may have missed something, how did Lorca learn about the Emporer? Burnham was on the bridge when the Emperor appeared, and I'm assuming Lorca is still in his holding cell. Did they setup a communication line I don't remember?

Also just noticed...I don't think I've seen a single blonde haired male or female on the show. Unless maybe there was one in the party scene a few episodes back. 

Poor Stamets XD

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20 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

I may have missed something, how did Lorca learn about the Emporer? Burnham was on the bridge when the Emperor appeared, and I'm assuming Lorca is still in his holding cell. Did they setup a communication line I don't remember?

Lorca was in Burnham's ready room with her, when she was informed that another ship had appeared and was firing on the planet. She rushed out to the bridge, and called out to someone to bring Lorca. So he was on the bridge, too.

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If Mirror!Burnham was a badass warrior, she should have scars and other damage. Mirror!Saru must know that this version of Burnham is too pristine and compassionate.

Since Mirror!Burnham was not raised by Sarek, maybe we will get to see stunt casting for Ma & Pa Burnham...   

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14 hours ago, paigow said:

The Vulcans must have developed the Agony Booth technology years ago...Spock defected to the Empire with the schematics....

Malcom Reed invented the Agony Booth.

PHLOX: Ten hours in the Booth. Impressive.

FORREST: Get him out of there. (Archer falls out of the perspex tube.)

FORREST: Bring Major Reed. I want him to spend some time in this invention of his.

Edited by mrspidey
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4 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Malcom Reed invented the Agony Booth.

PHLOX: Ten hours in the Booth. Impressive.

FORREST: Get him out of there. (Archer falls out of the perspex tube.) FORREST: Bring Major Reed. I want him to spend some time in this invention of his.

Kudos to you for remembering....

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5 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

Also, I am going to have to rewatch that bit where Stamets appears to have met his "Mirror" counterpart. I did not catch the words that Mirror Stamets said to Prime Stamets. Would this mean that Mirror Stamets was already aware of Discovery's presence??...through some form of mental link?

Mirror!Stamets said "I was hoping you'd find your way here eventually.  Now that you have, let's get started."

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I can't believe there are people who hate this show. I haven't been excited by a tv show like I am by this one in a long time. Poor Ash. I hope he will find his way back to the surface of the Ash/Voq-Mind. I am sure MirrorSaru will end up helping Burnham.

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I wonder if the crew of the Mirror Universe ISS Shenzhou will ever become suspicious that every time their captain is asked to do anything, she immediately has to go talk to Lorca. 

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Well, those Terrans sure got some great lingerie - that lace body Burnham rocked in the first scene is a definite improvement over those ST tank tops. I wanted to like this episode more but I'm struggling with the logistics of Ash/Voq's escape. It didn't look as if Burnham had had any time to contact the Discovery. Not to mention that that was some serious long-range transporting. I also thought Burnham's plan and her motivation to contact the resistance at best half-cooked and it should never have worked - granted it didn't in the end but they should never even have survived that mission. Mirror Sarek was way too chill about the things he saw.  Mirror Voq really didn't deliver any great answers to Burnham's questions. And of course Burnham not immediately follow orders would have consequences - especially when the data she procured turned out to be useless.

Too bad about Ash - the moment Voq emerged his IQ dropped considerably. Mirror Voq was a whole lot smarter - I hope he survived. I loved Lorca's expression at the end - I almost expected him to reach for a cigar and grin: "I love it when a plan comes together."

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That was super intense! It took awhile (and I admit, I was hoping I was wrong about Ash just because I like him as he is) but the show seems to have really found itself. Its still Trek, but a different kind of Trek, closer to DS9 then Enterprise. Granted, it hasn't shown its reached the heights of DS9 yet, but I think it could happen. 

Poor Ash! It looks like the Ash Tyler we have been following really was Ash Tyler, a Starfleet POW really had no clue what was happening, and really thought he was Ash, but is also Voq grafted on and added into his mind and body. Poor Ash. Klingons in this era didnt screw around! I hope they can find some way to get Voq out of him. 

I never have any clue what game Lorca is playing at any given time, but I cant wait to find out more. I still dont think he is Mirror Lorca (he has seemed way too surprised by some of these turns) but I do think he has a plan that he hasn't told Michael about yet. Normal people would probably get seriously brain scrambled after days of torture, but Lorca? He probably got some great thinking in during his Agony Booth time. Also, the leather jacket look? Looks pretty great on you, Lorca. If you wanted to wear that midlife crisis gear more often, I`d be ok with it. I also noticed that when he was talking to Michael about their plan, his southern accent got WAY thicker than it is usually. Guess this has actually gotten to him. 

Seriously though, whoever the evil fashion designers are in the Mirror Universe, they are doing great work. Emperor Georgiou looks amazing, and even their pajamas are super sexy and fabulous. I know they're evil and all, but maybe we can at least borrow some designs on the way home? 

Cant wait to meet Mirror Stamets (who also looks great in the MU uniform) who I am sure is up to no good. 

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Tilly's "Wherever you are, I hope he's wish you" just broke my heart.

Combined with her seemingly praying over Ripper, I wonder if, despite the official line of the Federation being an atheist utopia (note:  am an atheist), Tilly might actually be religious.  

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Generally it's interesting how the mirror universe Terrans and the "prime" universe Klingons are basically the same. That is some unexpectedly good writing. Wondering if that's still part of Bryan Fuller's grand plan, that he laid out before he got fired. It basically has to be, right?

 

On 15.1.2018 at 3:11 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

Because the Discovery is no where near the Shenzhou at this point -- Discovery was stuck in some debris field with power issues while the Shenzhou headed to Hurlak (spelling ?). 

A lot of time has passed. It's pretty clear that Micheal gave them the coordinates and they traveled there. She then beamed Tyler as far away as possible, to give the Discovery the chance of picking him up, while still staying out of sensor range.

 

On 15.1.2018 at 3:20 AM, marinw said:

I still don’t understand how Goatee Spock gets aboard the ISS Enterprise. His presence is just too iconic to handwave away.

He is half human. Maybe the terrans think that's good enough? Even the Nazis didn't see half Jews as full Jews, but as "half breed first degree".

 

23 hours ago, AEMom said:

So Tyler is Voq and the Emperor is Georgiou which many of us saw coming.

Well, Tyler being Voq was obvious even before the midseason break and they all out confirmed it in the last episode, but Georgiou being the emperor I didn't see coming. I think you had to be spoiled in some way to see that. Like knowing that Michelle Yeoh was coming back. Otherwise that came very much out of the left field. But it is a really nice twist, I have to say

 

17 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I don't think the Disco crew knows that Tyler is Voq

Micheal would have told them in the message she sent them, where she told them where to pick him and the data up.

Edited by Miles
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38 minutes ago, Miles said:

Well, Tyler being Voq was obvious even before the midseason break and they all out confirmed it in the last episode, but Georgiou being the emperor I didn't see coming. I think you had to be spoiled in some way to see that. Like knowing that Michelle Yeoh was coming back. Otherwise that came very much out of the left field. But it is a really nice twist, I have to say

I called Georgiou as the Emperor because I figured that it had to be someone we knew and I figured that they would have hired Michelle Yeoh for more than a couple of episodes. My other thought for Emperor was possibly Cornwell. So no, I wasn't spoiled,  I just guessed well. :-)

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With Mirror Verse Spock being a member of the Terran Empire, I assume one of two thing happened: 

1. At some point, the Vulcan's decided it was illogical to keep fighting such a powerful enemy, and proposed an alliance instead. The Terran's decided that they were better off partnering with another race of very intelligent humanoids (maybe they looked human enough for them?) and they started working together, or the Vulcan's were absorbed into their empire and given more privileges than the other races. 

2. Spock, being half human, grew up with his human mother instead of Sarek, and fully embraced his human heritage over his Vulcan side, and the Terran's figured he was too competent to get rid of, so they overlooked his Vulcan half. Mirror Spock was the only Mirror duplicate who wasn't a total asshole after all. 

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27 minutes ago, AEMom said:

I called Georgiou as the Emperor because I figured that it had to be someone we knew and I figured that they would have hired Michelle Yeoh for more than a couple of episodes. My other thought for Emperor was possibly Cornwell. So no, I wasn't spoiled,  I just guessed well. :-)

Well come on, you were hatching your bets with multiple possibilities there. ;)

It was likely that it was somebody who we already knew, but you can't say you saw it coming if you had multiple options.

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2 hours ago, starri said:

Tilly's "Wherever you are, I hope he's wish you" just broke my heart.

Combined with her seemingly praying over Ripper, I wonder if, despite the official line of the Federation being an atheist utopia (note:  am an atheist), Tilly might actually be religious.  

There have been other religious humans before on Trek. Chakotay followed some branch of native spirituality and Kassidy Yates was a Christian. I think there are a few other but I'm blanking on them now. Religion has died down in the future it seems but it hasn't died out yet.

I do wonder if they might be able to save Ash Tyler , I hope so. There's a sensitivity there thats rare in an action hero. He's become one of my favourite characters.

Also no way does Stamets stay dead. I'm thinking we're going to see time travel get thrown in to the mix next.

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On 1/14/2018 at 11:45 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

I would have preferred someone else as Emperor as well, like Empress Hoshi Sato III or something like that.

In ST: TOS, only 4 members of the PrimeUniverse (Kirk, Uhura, Scott, and McCoy) crossed over to the MirrorUniverse -- but that event doesn't occur for another 10-12 years in the PrimeUniverse timeline.

Since when did Tilly take vast amounts of medical training ? Did she take the Starfleet Medical extensions program ?
 

She obviously took the hair extensions program! I hope she gets to be Captain Killy some more.

The series pilot was so dull I almost decided not to keep watching. Glad I didn’t quit.

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I feel like the show has taken a turn into full-blown silly, which actually I can enjoy better than a half-baked Serious Show About Serious Issues and the True Darkness of Human Nature or whatever.  Hey, Ash is Voq just like we all assumed, and that means no more nuance or interestingness, just a cackling villain shouting rather Semitic-sounding guttural slogans.  (Don't want to get scolded again about that, so.)  Hey, here's Good Mirror Voq, and he's got nothing interesting going on either, just a noble hero very, very quick to go with the flow and assume the best (that whole scene seemed so rushed to me, in a way a lot of this show has.  They want to hurry to what they think is the "good stuff", I guess, so who cares about any basic plausibility.)  Here's Mirror Georgiou to be an even more cackling supervillainess, in a hilariously OTT outfit.  I don't mind Captain Proton at all -- actually I really enjoyed this episode, probably the most of any episode so far? -- but the Now That It's the Golden Age of Television We Must Be Very Adult and Serious and Dark and Woke and Complicated, Not Like That Old Stupid Show hype looks even more absurd and annoying now.

21 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Can't see anything going wrong with that plan, especially since we've already seen Burnham literally talk the computer into letting her go

OMG I had totally forgotten about this ridiculous scene...maybe they went full-blown silly from the get-go and I just didn't notice because I was distracted by the annoying hype.  ("We're going to be the first people to really explore the Klingons and make them not just two-dimensional villains," I recall, was part of that...)

16 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Sometimes in this show, things happen in a certain way just because the plot wouldn't work otherwise. The thing is, Ash didn't tell anyone the truth about Michael, not even when he was about to be executed.

They sure do.  Pretty much every episode.  That's a good example, as is the fact that #TheResistance didn't just shoot Michael and Ash the minute they showed up pointing armed phasers.  (I'm sure they thought they were being the first adults who ever thought they should have phasers drawn whenever beaming, when they came up with that one in the writer's room.)

4 hours ago, Miles said:

Well, Tyler being Voq was obvious even before the midseason break and they all out confirmed it in the last episode, but Georgiou being the emperor I didn't see coming. I think you had to be spoiled in some way to see that.

Honestly all you needed was the mention of the "Faceless Emperor", which is a good example of this show not trusting themselves or their audience.  An Empire assumes the existence of an Emperor, even if, like me, you haven't seen any Mirror episodes since the TOS one, and didn't know they had an Emperor in the Enterprise episodes.  Just don't mention it, and when Georgiou shows up, we all go "OMG! Of course, why didn't I think of it!?"  But when you drop this very obvious hint of the FACELESS EMPEROR (which, as mentioned above, was completely discarded as soon as Georgiou shows up, because the Facelessness was phony nonsense for the sake of The Reveal, not something that makes any sense in-universe) then we're all thinking "hmm, who could that be?" and the most obvious answer, as productive of the most drama, is that it would be Georgiou.

Well, I'm looking forward to the adventures of Captain Proton VS Ming the Merciless, and seeing what Mirror Stamets is like, and I really did enjoy the "put the floppy disk on the body of the condemned prisoner" ploy, which even if it is a bit implausible in terms of how it was planned and how close is the Discovery anyway, was an actually clever idea and actually successfully not telegraphed.  Will Good Ash overcome Evil Voq in the end, and die nobly to save Michael (I assume)?  I'm readying my popcorn already.

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