S35.E16: Reunion Special

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Special K said:

I also think it is a very muddy area.  I mean, it's possible to actually care about someone in this game and still vote them off or lie to them.  Ryan and Devon are a good example of that actually.  They bonded but couldn't always trust each other.   Look at Kim Spradlin with Cat or Chelsea (who she ended up taking to FTC anyway).  I think Kim really did care for Chelsea, but felt she had to lie to her in the interest of her game. Most of the personal encounters we don't actually see so it's hard for us to judge the depth of the relationships at home.  Mostly we have to rely on what they tell us in THs.

When it's so blatantly bad, it stinks to high heaven, though.  Like remember Sash telling Jane she was like a mother to him? 

it goes all the way back to Sue + Kelly. (though we never really saw the entire 'break up')
Sue thought Kelly was betraying a genuine friendship. Kelly didn't see it as such. 
Lex thought Rob betrayed his friendship, Rob was like. "dude. it's a game and it doesn't/shouldn't change the way things are between us). 
many many many examples. 

it's what makes this game so amazingly complicated. there are lines (Trish/Tony) that get crossed and i thinkit hurts more because there is a friendship and then you use that information to blow them up. but there are a tonne of people on this show who get married, or are BFFs and are godparents to kids and some of the game play was brutal) I think honestly. there are some people who want to play the "i can lie but you can't lie" card. and some of it is water on their back. 

[NeverLate]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

IMO, if nobody can build a fire without matches, they should both be eliminated.  

Well maybe Burnett  should hear that, fire is big on this show! Fire is life!

[piequinn35]

Ben and his idols vs Chrissy and her immunity necklace

Ben's big moves: being a secret agent, when he got busted he needed idols to survive the votes

Chrissy's big move: ?

I didn't like Ben but he played better game than Chrissy and that was the 5 jurors saw. Joe called Ben an asshole, Ben called JP an idiot, Ben didn't like Cole, but the 3 still voted for him.

The final twist was already set I guess even before the start of the game to have an even playing game unlike what happened to David GenX.

[Daisy]

Just now, piequinn35 said:

Ben and his idols vs Chrissy and her immunity necklace

Ben's big moves: being a secret agent, when he got busted he needed idols to survive the votes

Chrissy's big move: ?

I didn't like Ben but he played better game than Chrissy and that was the 5 jurors saw. Joe called Ben an asshole, Ben called JP an idiot, Ben didn't like Cole, but the 3 still voted for him.

The final twist was already set I guess even before the start of the game to have an even playing game unlike what happened to David GenX.

 

1: is finding the hidden immunity idols. "big moves"?  (i'll say this to any player even ones i adore).. where is the big move in that?
2:  why does there need to be a big move? and i think that's what is bothering me. you don't need to make BIG MOVES all the time to justify you winning.

[piequinn35]

The big move was Ben being a secret agent that led to the ouster of JP & Joe, flushing of Ryan's idol, and idoling out Lauren.

Edited December 21, 2017 by piequinn35

[peachmangosteen]

Ben's big move was actually Devon's big move. Ben did convince Ryan and Chrissy with his act though, which he deserves credit for. 

[Bryce Lynch]

17 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Jeremy had a legit reason to hide it until FTC, it wasn't just about dropping a bomb at the end, it was about keeping other people from seeing that bomb coming and not letting him get to the FTC to drop it. Adam's reasoning might have been similar, he could have been seen as a "sympathy vote" threat and taken out for that reason. 

I don't really see Ben's PSTD story as similar to those 2, it was known (or at least speculated about) throughout the game, I don't recall if he said aloud at the family visit that his wife saved him or if that was in interviews. But the war vet part was probably seen as a threat and people were actively trying to get him out because of his odds to win. 

I don't really understand what you mean about Mike's vote. He can think others will vote for Ben to win and yet still vote for the person that HE thinks played the best game, those two things aren't at odds with one another. I'm glad he did so Chrissy didn't end up tied with Ryan for third. After the game she played, she didn't deserve to tie with the dragged goat. 

I don't mind them changing things up if they add something worthwhile. Picking people from the audience to talk brings absolutely nothing to the table. Why even fly the rest of the cast out if all they're going to do is pan over them for 2 seconds? 

And this particular "reunion" just had far, far, far too much Jeff Probst in it. He's in every damn episode, we don't need even more talking from him. 

I agree, I think Jeremy and Adam both hid their "sympathy vote" stories until the end, not so much to use them for sympathy votes, but to avoid being voted out before FTC by players with who had exaggerated fears about how strong the sympathy vote would be at FTC.  

[amazingracefan]

28 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Yet another thing I don't like about this new final twist is that it seriously changes the momentum going into FTC. Watching the game's clearest underdog stay alive in a fire-making challenge gives them more rootability. Which is fine for the audience, but not for the jury. There's a reason they don't sit around Ponderosa watching videos of what's happening at camp and the challenges. The great thing about the idols being out of play at the final 4 is that that's IT. You can play them to your heart's content but there is ONE LAST TIME you absolutely have to just convince people to keep you in the game, no other strategy or strike of luck will work.

Alliances are normally pretty set by the end unless you've got someone like Woo who can easily be persuaded.

 

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Ben's big move was actually Devon's big move. Ben did convince Ryan and Chrissy with his act though, which he deserves credit for. 

Ben was in the position in which he could play both sides and so be fooling one side, that's all down to his game.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

1: is finding the hidden immunity idols. "big moves"?  (i'll say this to any player even ones i adore).. where is the big move in that?
2:  why does there need to be a big move? and i think that's what is bothering me. you don't need to make BIG MOVES all the time to justify you winning.

1) Finding an idol is not really a "big move", but I guess it is a sort of accomplishment.  Using idols effectively can be "big moves" though.  

2) ITA about there being no need for "big moves".  If you are playing a truly excellent game, you might not need any big moves to win.  Big moves are often a sign of desperation.   Finding a way to get to FTC while offending the fewest jurors is at least as valid a strategy as dazzling jurors with "big moves".  

[Daisy]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

1) Finding an idol is not really a "big move", but I guess it is a sort of accomplishment.  Using idols effectively can be "big moves" though.  

2) ITA about there being no need for "big moves".  If you are playing a truly excellent game, you might not need any big moves to win.  Big moves are often a sign of desperation.   Finding a way to get to FTC while offending the fewest jurors is at least as valid a strategy as dazzling jurors with "big moves".  

 

okay that's true. for number 1 :) 
and exactly. or rather. getting Probst love because he'll bleat about the big move. 
like a lot of my favourite big moves, weren't like. "I NEED TO MAKE A BIG MOVE." it was just.. i need to make a move. 

ie: cirie's triple play or parv playing double HII's or something. or Tyson being fine with a rock draw. 

[NeverLate]

21 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 

1: is finding the hidden immunity idols. "big moves"?  (i'll say this to any player even ones i adore).. where is the big move in that?
2:  why does there need to be a big move? and i think that's what is bothering me. you don't need to make BIG MOVES all the time to justify you winning.

No, but outwit, outlast and outplay does.Those are big plays!

[NeverLate]

36 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Ben's big move was actually Devon's big move. Ben did convince Ryan and Chrissy with his act though, which he deserves credit for. 

Chrissy had Ryan and Devon do her dirty work.

[cooksdelight]

As a woman, I didn’t dislike Chrissy because she was the last woman standing.

I disliked her for her smugness, her self-righteousness, her ugly comments about her competitors, her thinking that everyone should kowtow to her and let her walk away with the prize.

She was a straight-up bitch. 

[UGAmp]

This is long and I am going to apologize in advance...

Maybe I'm naive but I choose to believe that the producers map out the season in advance and stick to it. Sure, a challenge might have to change depending on weather conditions or if a castaway is medically evacuated and it affects the numbers for a challenge, the jury, etc. but I think they stick to the plan (said in Keith Nale's voice). Otherwise, if someone found out TPTB were manipulating things there would be real-world consequences (like the girl who sued them from S1 because the producer encouraged the guy to keep voting alphabetically and she was next alphabetically so she was voted out... I feel like that is how it went). I admit that might make me a sheep. I think the true manipulation lies in the editing. Exhibit A: Producers LOVED Russell finding idols without looking but neglected to show he was a TROLL and everyone was dragging him to the end. He was A goat not the GOAT (as the kids say) like they wanted us to think. 

As for Ben (or whoever desperately needs it) always finding the idol. ...Maybe because they are always looking? If he looked for it from the moment they got back from TC (let's pretend it's midnight) until the sun starts to rise (let's say 5 am), that's 5 hours no one else was even trying (and most likely there is only so big an area they are allowed to explore so that also decreases the needle in the haystack odds). I say more power to him. 

I get what they are trying to do with fire-making at the final four. The reasoning from the producers seems to be "Look at how many of your favorites got voted out at final 4 because the other 3 knew they were huge threats and banded together: Malcolm! Kelly Wentworth! Spencer! Yau-Man! Cydney! What if they had had a chance to make it to the end?" I think it's the same as any time they introduce a new twist (Final 3 vs. Final 2, the hidden immunity idol, fire-making at F4 instead of pulling rocks (Pascal!)) They have to introduce it SOMETIME if that is the plan to keep the show interesting (and I don't remember if the contestants knew about those changes from the beginning of their seasons). How often have we gone into a final episode knowing who the final 5 are said, "I hope that combination is not the final 3... it would be the worst one ever!" Just last season, if it had been Brad, Tai, and Troyzan how bad would that have been? But TPTB are playing with fire here (pardon the pun) because if this is now the status quo, good players might get voted out even earlier to prevent situations like that from happening. 

I still like the show even with all of the twists and turns. I am happy Ben won (partly because him being the underdog at the end, and then partly because once that bamboo exploded and he had his moment, I knew the winner's edit had begun for him and I wanted to be right). I think this season was full of thin-skinned players (Ben included) who got unusually angry when things didn't go according to their plan (Ryan, Chrissy, Devon also come to mind). I feel like TPTB have gotten somewhat back on the right track by casting FANS of the show instead of pretty looking people they come across in a bar but they keep tweaking the game to keep it interesting. I think they are learning their lesson with the secret advantages being a one-time use so another Cirie doesn't get screwed over by everything being played at once and getting kicked off by default. 

I'm still not a huge fan of the new FTC format. I know the old format had become stale but this just... isn't working. Plus I don't really agree with Jeff's definitions of outwit, outplay, and outlast. If they really wanna hammer home those phrases, why can't they divide challenges like that? Have outlast be endurance-based, have outwit be puzzle-based, and outplay be more physical and rotate the three so it is not puzzle, after puzzle, after puzzle which gets old even if it has a physical element in the beginning stages.

Have y'all watched old seasons recently? My teenage nieces have become big fans of the show so we've watched old seasons over the past few years. The seasons without HII can be a bit... dull. Yes, they focused more on relationships and survival but a lot of the time it was majority alliances systematically voting out those not in their alliance. Remember how we would get 2 vote-offs in one episode because it would be the dwindling members of an alliance getting picked off and it was obviously happening so let's just get it over with. So I think that's why they've added idols and advantages to keep it interesting. The Ghost Island concept sounds...interesting... and I'll be along for the ride. See y'all next season! 

Edited December 21, 2017 by UGAmp

[cooksdelight]

I liked the final twist, making fire. Made me tell others watching with me about the first season and the jubilation Richard Hatch showed when he had the winning fire. 

There’s no way it was a producer-driven thing toward Ben. All of the challenges and idols/rewards are done before the season starts. They don’t knee-jerk something at the last moment to help someone. They had no idea who Chrissy would pick.

[hyukx3]

14 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

Chrissy had Ryan and Devon do her dirty work.

It's not like she's a mastermind. She was on the backfoot from Ben, Lauren, Ashley and Devon alliance. And Devon wasn't with her until near the end.

47 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

Alliances are normally pretty set by the end unless you've got someone like Woo who can easily be persuaded.

 

Ben was in the position in which he could play both sides and so be fooling one side, that's all down to his game.

Devon was the one who told him to be a spy. Gotta give credit to the guy with the plan.

[NeverLate]

1 minute ago, hyukx3 said:

It's not like she's a mastermind. She was on the backfoot from Ben, Lauren, Ashley and Devon alliance. And Devon wasn't with her until near the end.

Devon was the one who told him to be a spy. Gotta give credit to the guy with the plan.

I do. And to the person that carried off the spying..:) 

6 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I liked the final twist, making fire. Made me tell others watching with me about the first season and the jubilation Richard Hatch showed when he had the winning fire. 

There’s no way it was a producer-driven thing toward Ben. All of the challenges and idols/rewards are done before the season starts. They don’t knee-jerk something at the last moment to help someone. They had no idea who Chrissy would pick.

I agree 100%. The other players may be in a weak state, but they would see that carried out! LOL.

 

Ben won fair and square, he made this season at TC. 

Quote

Have y'all watched old seasons recently? My teenage nieces have become big fans of the show so we've watched old seasons over the past few years. The seasons without HII can be a bit... dull. Yes, they focused more on relationships and survival but a lot of the time it was majority alliances systematically voting out those not in their alliance. Remember how we would get 2 vote-offs in one episode because it would be the dwindling members of an alliance getting picked off and it was obviously happening so let's just get it over with. So I think that's why they've added idols and advantages to keep it interesting. The Ghost Island concept sounds...interesting... and I'll be along for the ride. See y'all next season! 

Absolutely!:) 

[NeverLate]

47 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

As a woman, I didn’t dislike Chrissy because she was the last woman standing.

I disliked her for her smugness, her self-righteousness, her ugly comments about her competitors, her thinking that everyone should kowtow to her and let her walk away with the prize.

She was a straight-up bitch. 

The final TC was apparently three hours! I think Ben would of been exhausted and drained...actually they all would of been..

[millennium]

4 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I don't know how anyone can say the end wasn't great tv - it was.

Instead we got more deserving finalists and an exciting end, win win.

I respectfully disagree.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I appreciate that Survivor changes things up, but this late in the game? In a way that gives the person clearly favored by production (hey, I favored him too!) another chance? Yes, he still had to WIN that fire making challenge. 

And there was no way Ben was going to lose the fire-making challenge against 98 pound do-nothing Ryan or Surfer Dude Devon because Ben had been the person chiefly responsible for the fire at camp all season long.

I think what really infuriates me is the audacity of the show to call that thing "an advantage." If they had just said "there's a twist" and that winning the IC might prove a double-edged sword, it wouldn't have bugged me as much. But to try to pass it off as though it were some kind of advantage for Chrissy was utter bullshit and laughable. How dumb do they think we are?

[Daisy]

14 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

And there was no way Ben was going to lose the fire-making challenge against 98 pound do-nothing Ryan or Surfer Dude Devon because Ben had been the person chiefly responsible for the fire at camp all season long.

I think what really infuriates me is the audacity of the show to call that thing "an advantage." If they had just said "there's a twist" and that winning the IC might prove a double-edged sword, it wouldn't have bugged me as much. But to try to pass it off as though it were some kind of advantage for Chrissy was utter bullshit and laughable. How dumb do they think we are?

yeup. exactly. 

and from probsts own mouth this "advantage" is in because

"This idea came about to solve a problem that has bothered me for years. If someone plays a great game and gets to the final four, it has always bothered me that the other three can simply say, “We can’t beat him, so let’s all just vote him out.”" - Jeff Probst -  ew.com 

the man is bothered that people vote out people  so they can win. 
which is the entire point of the show. 
 

[ProfCrash]

Advantages should be something that the player has a choice of playing or not playing. Everything that was found this season had to be played, the only exception was Lauren's advantage. Ryan had to gift his advantage if he couldn't use it at the first tribal. Jessica had to send her advantage to someone and block their vote (Devon). Chrissy had to choose one person sitting next to her and allow the fire making competition to go. Personally, I think it would be better if all of those were "You may choose this option or not but it has to be used this tribal", like Lauren's advantage.

I can see seasons where it would make sense for the winner of final immunity to take one person and force a fire making competition. I can see why someone might decide they want to hand off an immunity idol (try and keep the other team weak by sending the idol to someone they think is going to be voted out and force out a stronger player on that tribe) but advantages should be a choice not forced.

Chrissy should have had the choice of forcing a fire making competition. That would be an advantage. What happened was the worst case scenario for Chrissy. She had a far better shot against Devon then she did against Ben. She was screwed over by something that she had no control of that was supposedly an advantage for her.

[MissEwa]

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think what really infuriates me is the audacity of the show to call that thing "an advantage." If they had just said "there's a twist" and that winning the IC might prove a double-edged sword, it wouldn't have bugged me as much. But to try to pass it off as though it were some kind of advantage for Chrissy was utter bullshit and laughable. How dumb do they think we are?

"That is not an advantage" pretty much sums up this season. If only I could find the GIF of Devon saying it the *first* time it screwed him. 

[Daisy]

5 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Advantages should be something that the player has a choice of playing or not playing. Everything that was found this season had to be played, the only exception was Lauren's advantage. Ryan had to gift his advantage if he couldn't use it at the first tribal. Jessica had to send her advantage to someone and block their vote (Devon). Chrissy had to choose one person sitting next to her and allow the fire making competition to go. Personally, I think it would be better if all of those were "You may choose this option or not but it has to be used this tribal", like Lauren's advantage.

I can see seasons where it would make sense for the winner of final immunity to take one person and force a fire making competition. I can see why someone might decide they want to hand off an immunity idol (try and keep the other team weak by sending the idol to someone they think is going to be voted out and force out a stronger player on that tribe) but advantages should be a choice not forced.

Chrissy should have had the choice of forcing a fire making competition. That would be an advantage. What happened was the worst case scenario for Chrissy. She had a far better shot against Devon then she did against Ben. She was screwed over by something that she had no control of that was supposedly an advantage for her.

exactly. like. remember when the Immunity Necklace could be given to someone? that was an advantage. (disadvantage for Erik). but you didn't have to use it.. or you had the advantage of finding the HII but you could be voted out with it. why do yoou have to play it? why not go "hey jeff i won final immunity unless this thing says I get a 2 vote lead in final tribal, imma good." 

[Kaiju Ballet]

I liked the Twist. If it were a situation where 3 were not unanimously set against the 4th, it could effectively help preserve the vote of the person who became the last juror (for the person who won the advantage, even if Devon didn’t) It also was an advantage in which the holder could—and did, as we saw—“prep” the person she wanted to win.

From what we were shown, Devon had every chance to win—he was given the opportunity to practice, but chose not to after his flint broke. He also chose the slower method of building a pile of magnesium chips. Two choices that he made that cost him.

The jurors saw that the advantage was not shared with Ben, so Ben’s success was even bigger in that the challenge was a surprise to him. It also emphasized quite dramatically his coming back yet again after having his back against the wall.

And selfishly, it made that tribal exciting for me, as opposed to a summary execution.

I was surprised that Chrissy believed that she would beat Ben at Tribal in her TH. I think Devon was also a credible threat if she brought him to the Final 3. I'm curious who Ben would have voted for in that scenario.

The difference, for me, between Chrissy vs. Ben’s “obnoxiousness”/poor social gameplay wasn’t a gender one so much as how Chrissy made it personal, whereas Ben would have behaved the same regardless of who was trying to get him out. (Note how three of the jurors that Ben supposedly had personal beef with still ended up voting for him)

I hated the behavior from Joe, “I read your face. Thank you, babygirl” but I loved Lauren’s bluntness and being upfront that it was about the game, not the individuals. Also as others have pointed out, Chrissy seemed to feel that only she was allowed to make the moves that she was angry at other players doing.

I wondered if they cut out from FTC any speculation that Chrissy was herself biased against women—or if that came mostly from interviews with pre-jury boots.

And yes, that reunion was mostly a waste of time and teaser of what could have been, but not gonna lie. I did get something in my eye with the surprise reunion of Ben’s Marine Brothers.

[ghoulina]

12 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Advantages should be something that the player has a choice of playing or not playing.

100% agree on this one. I would not have been bothered if Chrissy could have just chosen not to play it. If it was an advantage for HER, it should have bolstered her game. It did not. It hampered it. Being able to pick Ryan to absolutely come with her meant nothing. That goat was going to F3 anyhow. 

[Kerri Okie]

36 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Chrissy should have had the choice of forcing a fire making competition. That would be an advantage. What happened was the worst case scenario for Chrissy. She had a far better shot against Devon then she did against Ben. She was screwed over by something that she had no control of that was supposedly an advantage for her.

The advantage, as it said in the clue, was information.  Chrissy got to know ahead of time what the final twist was, and whether she wanted to use that information to her advantage.  Which she did. If anything people should be upset with Devon for not practicing making fire when he had the advantage of knowing that he was going to have to make fire and Ben didn't!  But no, instead Devon decided that the Survivor Gods were telling him to chill on the beach, same as all those times everyone sat around at camp and let Ben go off and search for idols unattended.  

On that note, Ben also made the comment that the last idol could only be played until final five, therefore he, and everyone else, must have been told the idol rules at the beginning of the game, which makes everyone else sitting around camp not looking for idols or checking up on Ben before it was down to final five even worse game play.  

One thing that hasn't changed since season 1 is that the winner is still chosen by the jury.  If they didn't feel Ben deserved to be there, they didn't have to vote for him. 

Quote

And there was no way Ben was going to lose the fire-making challenge against 98 pound do-nothing Ryan or Surfer Dude Devon because Ben had been the person chiefly responsible for the fire at camp all season long.

But everyone had an equal chance all season long to make fire.  If they chose not to, how is that Ben's fault?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Kerri Okie

[ljenkins782]

16 minutes ago, Daisy said:

yeup. exactly. 

and from probsts own mouth this "advantage" is in because

"This idea came about to solve a problem that has bothered me for years. If someone plays a great game and gets to the final four, it has always bothered me that the other three can simply say, “We can’t beat him, so let’s all just vote him out.”" - Jeff Probst -  ew.com 

the man is bothered that people vote out people  so they can win. 
which is the entire point of the show. 
 

LOL. 

If the game keeps tilting toward Probst's personal preferences, we'll soon be seeing Survivor: Alpha Male, where Joe/Malcolm/Savage/Terry Dietz/etc oil up and wrestle for immunity. 

[NeverLate]

Quote

One thing that hasn't changed since season 1 is that the winner is still chosen by the jury.  If they didn't feel Ben deserved to be there, they didn't have to vote for him.

100 likes!!!

[amazingracefan]

34 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Everything that was found this season had to be played, the only exception was Lauren's advantage. Ryan had to gift his advantage if he couldn't use it at the first tribal.

Chrissy didn't have to use that advantage Ryan gave her and she didn't.

 

It was quite circular that Ryan gave her that advantage and she gave him the pass to the final at the end.

Edited December 21, 2017 by amazingracefan

[After7Only]

I don't necessarily have strong feelings on who should have won.  I personally respect Chrissy's game a bit more than Ben's.  Both Chrissy and Ben made it to the end due to their gameplay.  Chrissy's was winning immunities.  Ben's was finding idols.  I just think winning 4 immunities is a more difficult thing to do and requires a broader skillset than finding idols.   

I knew there were a lot of strong female players this season, but until Cole(?) mentioned that he was the only man to win a individual immunity this season, I didn't realize how dominant the women had been.  Has this ever happened before?  If not, it was more than deserving a montage of all of ladies immunity challenge wins and at least some type of mention at the reunion.  

[Cornhusker12]

Am I missing something here? Isn't it literally a federal crime for a game show to change/interfere/manipulate rules when money/winnings are involved? Like, isn't that well known? The producers and editors obviously play with our minds a bit in some ways, but I don't think they're allowed to introduce unplanned twists and changes that will give certain contestants an advantage, let alone lead Ben to hidden idols and make up a fire challenge to keep him in the game. It's amazing how many people are convinced that is happening every single season haha. I wasn't crazy about the secret twist at the end, but it was going to happen whether Ben had the upside down U or not.

Edited December 21, 2017 by huskerj12

[NeverLate]

25 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

Chrissy didn't have to use that advantage Ryan gave her and she didn't.

 

It was quite circular that Ryan gave her that advantage and she gave him the pass to the final at the end.

Those two were close, no doubt. But Chrissy knew Ryan was not going to win.h.ence her taking him( as the goat)  and yet I found his speech entertaining and clever, as Ben said, Ryan is good with words.

[Special K]

10 minutes ago, huskerj12 said:

Am I missing something here? Isn't it literally a federal crime for a game show to change/interfere/manipulate rules when money/winnings are involved? Like, isn't that well known? The producers and editors obviously play with our minds a bit in some ways, but I don't think they're allowed to introduce unplanned twists and changes that will give certain contestants an advantage, let alone lead Ben to hidden idols and make up a fire challenge to keep him in the game. It's amazing how many people are convinced that is happening every single season haha. I wasn't crazy about the secret twist at the end, but it was going to happen whether Ben had the upside down U or not.

"Reality" competitions aren't considered game shows in the sense of the "quiz show" scandal.  In fact, in lots of reality shows, there is a disclaimer in the credits that says that producers have a say in who gets eliminated -- I think Project Runway has this, or used to.  For a show without a paid judging panel, it's a bit harder to manipulate the outcome, admittedly, but of course still possible.

[MissEwa]

1 minute ago, huskerj12 said:

Am I missing something here? Isn't it literally a federal crime for a game show to change/interfere/manipulate rules when money/winnings are involved? Like, isn't that well known? The producers and editors obviously play with our minds a bit in some ways, but I don't think they're allowed to introduce unplanned twists and changes that will give certain contestants an advantage, let alone lead Ben to hidden idols and make up a fire challenge to keep him in the game. It's amazing how many people are convinced that is happening every single season haha. I wasn't crazy about the secret twist at the end, but it was going to happen whether Ben had the upside down U or not.

Personally I don't think this twist was rigged FOR BEN, as such (I do think - and it's been mentioned by past contestants that this happens with camera-people giving away too much - that he was likely, at least inadvertently, led to at least one or two of his idols. I mean, sure, maybe he was digging around the island in the middle of the night, in nothing more than moonlight. Or maybe there was a light on a camera that was making it a little bit easier...) but I definitely think it's a change to the game that favours certain kinds of players over others - more specifically, challenge-monster/provider players over social players. 

If they keep it long-term it's going to become a farce pretty quickly though as everyone's just going to master fire-making before they even hit the island (and yes, they should anyway, but much, much moreso now). 

[Rachel RSL]

I asked this earlier but I haven't seen a response yet and I really do want to know. If that final vote had been for Chrissy, it would have ended up in a tie, what would they have done?

[jaync]

Not since Boston Rob's fifty-eleventh season has there been so much twisting and stacking of odds so as to assure TPTB's fave makes the final three.

Complete.Fucking.Bullshit.

[meep.meep]

7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The only part of the three hours that I liked was when Probst talked to Mike and Devon after they were voted off. The rest of the audience stuff was stupid and wasted time.

I enjoyed that too.  Talk to them right away, not when they are part of the crowd at the end.

During the game, I disliked Joe the player.  For some reason, I really liked Joe the Juror.

Too many idols, too many twists, the game doesn't need it.

[Special K]

Just now, meep.meep said:

I enjoyed that too.  Talk to them right away, not when they are part of the crowd at the end.

 

I thought both Mike and Devon were charming and sweet, and I thought Mike looked very handsome.  Of course Devon looked handsome, too. :)

[kassa]

I enjoyed this season, and the other recent ones as well, because I feel that the strategic thinking has become much more multidimensional, the players smarter, things not so entirely rigged towards fit young males.  The fact that only one guy won an immunity challenge this year was fabulous -- and it's not like the challenges were physically EASY.  Traditionally the women usually only won the endurance or puzzle challenges -- this year had lots of combination challenges resulting in a more even playing field, I think.

While the idols have kind of taken over, they HAVE interfered with the "play by numbers" strategy that threatened the entire game for a while.  Once a group of 7 or so was formed, they would just Pagong their way to the end.  Immunity idols brought with them the splitting of votes and other tribal council strategies that required brainpower. Brainpower, often, that as a casual viewer on my sofa was exhausting to follow.  My favorite twist this year was the DISadvantage that Devon got.  I think some of the "hidden immunity idols" may in future not be immunity idols but curses, and good - that will introduce some caution to the idol farmers we've seen in recent years.  They could even make the hidden "advantages" a mystery from the finder.  Play this at tribal council and find out if it backfires on you!  It might double your vote... or cancel it. (sadly, only those with the least to lose would probably end up playing them).

I too thought the teaser for next season was about bringing back people who had played themselves right out of the game.  But it was all worth it to be reminded of "it's a fucking STICK!"

Edited December 21, 2017 by kassa

[Gummo]

All these ridiculous idols and advantages have made playing Survivor strategically impossible. It's practically random now.

And so winning proves nothing except that Burnette and Probst like you.

Whoopie.

This game used to take planning, social wiles, and some luck. Planning? Why bother, when production will just up-end whatever you do if it doesn't fit their pre-planned storyboard? Social wiles? You can be an arrogant asshat -- Hi, Ben! -- so long as we keep throwing idols in your path. Luck? You don't need luck if you're an alpha male and Probst has the bromance hots for you!

it's too bad, really. Original Survivor was a brilliant game. But as I've said before, Burnett and Probst have no faith in their own creation.

[ljenkins782]

4 hours ago, NeverLate said:

Quote

Yet another thing I don't like about this new final twist is that it seriously changes the momentum going into FTC. Watching the game's clearest underdog stay alive in a fire-making challenge gives them more rootability. Which is fine for the audience, but not for the jury. There's a reason they don't sit around Ponderosa watching videos of what's happening at camp and the challenges. The great thing about the idols being out of play at the final 4 is that that's IT. You can play them to your heart's content but there is ONE LAST TIME you absolutely have to just convince people to keep you in the game, no other strategy or strike of luck will work.

Fire happened in Cook Islands too. Both contestants were so bad they broke their flints, then had to move onto matches, before one of them ran out of matches and had to sit and watch the other one struggle to burn the rope to raise their flag.

It also happened in Exile Island, but both of those were due to tied votes, not a newly announced "twist." The way the fire-making challenge went down in Exile Island flies in the face of Probst's claim that they introduced this twist because he was tired of seeing someone play a great game and go out 4th. Cirie was the underdog hero of that season who played an amazing game to get to 4th and fire took her out. 

It just doesn't make sense to remove one crucial element of the game (convincing people to keep you) by making it a could-go-either-way fire challenge. Devon clearly had experience with fire-making, he was shown easily starting fire earlier in the episode, but it just didn't happen for him at the challenge. 

I think my main gripe is that it was done at F4. As stated above, they stop the idols at F5, I think any twists like this should stop there as well.

Quote

While the idols have kind of taken over, they HAVE interfered with the "play by numbers" strategy that threatened the entire game for a while.  Once a group of 7 or so was formed, they would just Pagong their way to the end.  Immunity idols brought with them the splitting of votes and other tribal council strategies that required brainpower. Brainpower, often, that as a casual viewer on my sofa was exhausting to follow.  My favorite twist this year was the DISadvantage that Devon got.  I think some of the "hidden immunity idols" may in future not be immunity idols but curses, and good - that will introduce some caution to the idol farmers we've seen in recent years.  They could even make the hidden "advantages" a mystery from the finder.  Play this at tribal council and find out if it backfires on you!  (sadly, only those with the least to lose would probably end up playing them).

Hmmm, that's kind of interesting. A twist on the "covered item" concept from the auctions. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by ljenkins782

[jaync]

Quote

If that final vote had been for Chrissy, it would have ended up in a tie, what would they have done?

I wondered that, too, and have always thought it odd that there's never been a tie since the show started having three finalists.

[hyukx3]

3 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

It also happened in Exile Island, but both of those were due to tied votes, not a newly announced "twist." The way the fire-making challenge went down in Exile Island flies in the face of Probst's claim that they introduced this twist because he was tired of seeing someone play a great game and go out 4th. Cirie was the underdog hero of that season who played an amazing game to get to 4th and fire took her out. 

It just doesn't make sense to remove one crucial element of the game (convincing people to keep you) by making it a could-go-either-way fire challenge. Devon clearly had experience with fire-making, he was shown easily starting fire earlier in the episode, but it just didn't happen for him at the challenge. 

if you can convince others to take you to the final 3, it's probably becuz you're not gonna win. there are exceptions like Woo

8 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I asked this earlier but I haven't seen a response yet and I really do want to know. If that final vote had been for Chrissy, it would have ended up in a tie, what would they have done?

The vote on wiki is 5-2-1. Wont be a tie.

[Jeanne222]

14 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I asked this earlier but I haven't seen a response yet and I really do want to know. If that final vote had been for Chrissy, it would have ended up in a tie, what would they have done?

If two tied the jury would vote again but only for those two!

[NeverLate]

Quote

It also happened in Exile Island, but both of those were due to tied votes, not a newly announced "twist." The way the fire-making challenge went down in Exile Island flies in the face of Probst's claim that they introduced this twist because he was tired of seeing someone play a great game and go out 4th. Cirie was the underdog hero of that season who played an amazing game to get to 4th and fire took her out. 

Well I loved the twist, and Ben didnt have help with his fire, thank goodness, he didnt have clue..otoh Devon could have, should have practised, as Chrissy wanted him in the F3..

[Rachel RSL]

31 minutes ago, hyukx3 said:

The vote on wiki is 5-2-1. Wont be a tie.

Oh...I was confused because Chrissy had 2 votes, Ben had 3 votes and Jeff said "One vote left". Maybe he said it by accident because, in his head, he was thinking that he only had to read one more vote.

[cooksdelight]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

I asked this earlier but I haven't seen a response yet and I really do want to know. If that final vote had been for Chrissy, it would have ended up in a tie, what would they have done?

After one more revote, they’d have a fire-building competition, if the tie wasn’t broken.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And there was no way Ben was going to lose the fire-making challenge against 98 pound do-nothing Ryan or Surfer Dude Devon because Ben had been the person chiefly responsible for the fire at camp all season long.

 

I don't know if you caught it, but early on in the show, long before the "advantage" was introduced, the camera lingered on Devon as he handily lit a blazing fire using the flint, to create the impression that Devon was an expert firestarter and that poor, just-trying-to-help-my-family-this-is-a-job-for-me Ben would appear to be at a disadvantage in the later fire-making challenge.   More cheap manipulation.

[peachmangosteen]

Didn't Probst say at the reunion for season 34 that in case of a tie at FTC the person in the F3 that was not part of the tie would place the deciding vote? I thought he talked about it at last season's reunion and that's why the internet was convinced there'd be a tie this season. 

I've decided that I'm not that mad about Ben winning anymore. I mean I still think Chrissy played the better game, but she sucked too so whatever. But I feel like Ben's win legitimizes 'finding HIIs' as a strategy and I really hate that. I also still hate the twist of the F3 being determined by a fire-making challenge simply because challenge ability and being able to make a fire aren't important to me in a Survivor player.

But I have to just accept it or stop watching, which I won't do lol. I'll just keep watching and complaining!

Edited December 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen