S02.E05: Marionettes

[ChefLadyperson]

I thought the music choice was great during the hairdressing scene. It's scored with "Zadok the Priest." Written by Handel for the coronation of Henry II, it's been performed at every coronation since. Was an apt soundtrack to Queen Elizabeth getting "crowned" with her iconic hair style.

[CousinAmy]

Was it an error showing Liz having her makeover - which became her iconic hairstyle - reversed as time went by? I was thinking that Alti's meeting with her was actually just his dream, and so he envisioned her with her old hairstyle. But as we headed into Christmas, and then into Spring of 1958, we seem to have abandoned her makeover altogether.

I dislike historical fiction - even though this is hardly history for me, because I'm Charles's age, and was certainly aware of the young Royal family in the 1950s - because we now think of Philip as a nasty, insulting husband, given to carping at his wife and her physical appearance; the Queen Mum as somewhat dotty and bitter; and Elizabeth as a snob and an out-of-town puppet. Were those true? When some details are exactly right, and some are completely wrong, how is a casual viewer expected to react? Accept all, reject all?

[Clanstarling]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:23 AM, biakbiak said:

Am i weird that I don't see a huge change in her hair?

The new bob (with the pin cushion hat) was only there when it was cut, on the train, and at the factory. Her hair was longer again when they got the news about the editorial - which was pretty much the next day, right? Or at least not long enough for it to have grown out to any visible degree.

Speaking of growing - Charles and Anne shot up to an incredible degree between their last appearance and this one. We even spent time googling and getting the dates straight, because it seemed liked they'd aged years instead of one year (if we're counting Christmas message to Christmas message). 

Both the hair and the kids seem like a big continuity error to me.

On 12/9/2017 at 2:40 PM, Helena Dax said:

Speaking of Philip, he made me laugh when he was joking about Elizabeth's hair. And I loved his little scene with Margaret. Vidal Baboon, LOL. I think this show is funnier this season. The scene where Elizabeth was talking to that lord was funny too. 

Margaret's style didn't seem particularly Vidal Sassoon(?)-ish, from what I can remember as his style (it certainly seemed more in line with that era's helmet hair than the "geometric" cuts he was famous for, and they mentioned). 

4 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

Was it an error showing Liz having her makeover - which became her iconic hairstyle - reversed as time went by? I was thinking that Alti's meeting with her was actually just his dream, and so he envisioned her with her old hairstyle. But as we headed into Christmas, and then into Spring of 1958, we seem to have abandoned her makeover altogether.

I think it was an error. She looked pretty much the same except for those few scenes.

[dubbel zout]

I took it as Elizabeth going back to her previous hairstyle because Philip teased her about it so much.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

I dislike historical fiction - even though this is hardly history for me, because I'm Charles's age, and was certainly aware of the young Royal family in the 1950s - because we now think of Philip as a nasty, insulting husband, given to carping at his wife and her physical appearance; the Queen Mum as somewhat dotty and bitter; and Elizabeth as a snob and an out-of-town puppet. Were those true? When some details are exactly right, and some are completely wrong, how is a casual viewer expected to react? Accept all, reject all?

Regard it as fiction. Already Shakespeare altered much. 

[Crs97]

As that speech continued, I wondered at what point during it would she realize exactly what she was saying.  The answer, alas, was never.  I kept going back to Lena’s last speech to the crowd in Singing in the Rain.

Her hairstyle was unfortunate.  At first I thought she didn’t like it and was being polite.  No, husbands shouldn’t dictate how their wives look, but Phillip’s remark was hilarious!  That gentle  teasing plus his look last episode to Elizabeth when the prime minister kept interrupting her - maybe they are slowly getting back on track and hitting their stride.

The Queen Mother is not coming off well here.

[Clanstarling]

43 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

As that speech continued, I wondered at what point during it would she realize exactly what she was saying.  The answer, alas, was never.  I kept going back to Lena’s last speech to the crowd in Singing in the Rain.

Her hairstyle was unfortunate.  At first I thought she didn’t like it and was being polite.  No, husbands shouldn’t dictate how their wives look, but Phillip’s remark was hilarious!  That gentle  teasing plus his look last episode to Elizabeth when the prime minister kept interrupting her - maybe they are slowly getting back on track and hitting their stride.

The Queen Mother is not coming off well here.

I was wondering that too - I did think Phillip "heard" it. 

I did not take his jokes as "gentle teasing" - given the precarious state of their marriage and the slight dig that Elizabeth, not Phillip, is the one who wants another child. Plus, Had an ex who did the same thing. It doesn't feel gentle at all when it's coming at you unless your marriage is rock solid and you are both satisfied with it.

I would have thought Elizabeth just returned to her old style - if it hadn't been so much longer on virtually the next day. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Cheezwiz]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I would have thought Elizabeth just returned to her old style - if it hadn't been so much longer on virtually the next day. 

This confused me - I honestly thought this might be a continuity error, although for a show with that kind of production value, an error that big seems unlikely. But it was the hair length that changed back and forth in addition to the style, which seemed odd to me.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Epic Old-School Previously.TV Recap of the episode!

 

Extra, Extra! Man Forces Queen To Rethink Herself In The Crown S02.E05!

A challenge from a newspaper columnist makes everyone think about refreshing the monarchy, and Elizabeth refreshes her hairstyle.

[WatchrTina]

There was a time in my life when twin sets and pearls were part of my regular work wardrobe. That was in the 1980s/90s when I worked for a "Big 8" accounting firm and then a major bank in NYC.  Now I work for a funky advertising agency in Austin, Texas and I could wear shorts and logo t-shirts to work every day if I choose (but I don't -- in fact I've only dressed that way once or twice, generally opting for trousers and an a plain cotton top.)  But . . . looking at how smart Elizabeth looks above . . . I miss my twin sets.

[dubbel zout]

I love my strand of pearls! I used to forget I was wearing it to work and play softball with them on. It became sort of a joke in my office.

Elizabeth might not be fashionable, but I think she's very stylish. She found a look that works for her and doesn't stray. That's more important than wearing the latest trends, IMO.

[toolazy]

On 12/10/2017 at 5:10 AM, Jodithgrace said:

Well, we tend to think of the Queen as egalitarian because that's the way she acts. We have no idea how she really feels. I think that she might well have forgotten her ties to the "common people," because for 10 years she had been in the rarified air of her position as Queen. Reconnecting with the people at those public events she now holds has probably made her feel more connected and much less distainful.  Especially since I'm sure all of those people are on their very best behavior. 

Before I watched the episode I read people complaining about how snooty Betty and the QM were being in that scene and I don't agree that they were being snooty, exactly.  I think they were nervous.  At least Elizabeth was nervous.  Maybe the QM was being snooty, I don't know but they were about to meet a bunch of people whose lives they really couldn't understand and who might actually hate them.  I might have been nervous, too and that nervousness might have expressed itself through put-downs or condescension.  I don't actually believe that either of those women are unkind. 

 

 

On 12/17/2017 at 7:48 PM, Clanstarling said:

The new bob (with the pin cushion hat) was only there when it was cut, on the train, and at the factory. Her hair was longer again when they got the news about the editorial - which was pretty much the next day, right? Or at least not long enough for it to have grown out to any visible degree.

Speaking of growing - Charles and Anne shot up to an incredible degree between their last appearance and this one. We even spent time googling and getting the dates straight, because it seemed liked they'd aged years instead of one year (if we're counting Christmas message to Christmas message). 

Both the hair and the kids seem like a big continuity error to me.

Margaret's style didn't seem particularly Vidal Sassoon(?)-ish, from what I can remember as his style (it certainly seemed more in line with that era's helmet hair than the "geometric" cuts he was famous for, and they mentioned). 

I think it was an error. She looked pretty much the same except for those few scenes.

During the makeover scene, they made a big to-do about curling her hair.  I just told myself that in subsequent scenes her hair wasn't curled as much, and thus was longer.  

[CousinAmy]

5 hours ago, toolazy said:

Before I watched the episode I read people complaining about how snooty Betty and the QM were being in that scene and I don't agree that they were being snooty, exactly.  I think they were nervous.  At least Elizabeth was nervous.  Maybe the QM was being snooty, I don't know but they were about to meet a bunch of people whose lives they really couldn't understand and who might actually hate them.  I might have been nervous, too and that nervousness might have expressed itself through put-downs or condescension.  I don't actually believe that either of those women are unkind. 

 

 

During the makeover scene, they made a big to-do about curling her hair.  I just told myself that in subsequent scenes her hair wasn't curled as much, and thus was longer.  

Sassoon created those geometric cuts in the Swinging (mid)  Sixties; I'm not sure what he was doing in 1959. I'll have to look up some of his work. 

 

Charles was 8 in 1956 - a little boy; by 1960 he was 12. I can definitely see a growth spurt happening with him.

[tennisgurl]

16 hours ago, toolazy said:

Before I watched the episode I read people complaining about how snooty Betty and the QM were being in that scene and I don't agree that they were being snooty, exactly.  I think they were nervous.  At least Elizabeth was nervous. 

I thought the same thing. They seemed nervous about meeting people they felt they have no connection with, and a feeling of lose at the End of an Era. Granted, I dont see that, and see connecting the monarchy with the common folk is a good thing for everyone, but I can see how people who have traditions like the divine right of kings and such things would think that this is just one step closer to becoming utterly irrelevant. Granted, we have seen the Windsors making rather snobby remarks before, and I feel that classicism is definitely there, but it is rather understandable, if unlikable. They dont get out much. 

I enjoy when they take time to give screen time to people like Lord Altincham, who I didnt know much about before this. I like learning more about history, and the guy who played him was really good. And he looked a LOT like the actual guy. It was sweet to hear that he had a happy ending. His comments seemed to be quite logical, and it was very big of Elizabeth to listen to him. She might be rather stuffy, but she does really want to be a good Queen. 

I hope Martin threw in a very well deserved "I told you so" to everyone after that God awful speech. I mean, that was terrible! Maybe Martin should be in charge of speeches from now on? I did crack up over Philips expression during the speech. You could tell he was thinking "oh...thats not good...."and I also admit to have laughed at Philips comments about Elizabeth's hair. It wasn't nice, but I laughed. That really wasn't a great look on her, she looked way older than she should at her age. And I generally think Elizabeth looks quite classy. 

I also liked Philip and Margarets one scene. I think they would get along pretty well. Also, Philips expression when Elizabeth gave the speech was quite sweet. 

[andromeda331]

44 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I hope Martin threw in a very well deserved "I told you so" to everyone after that God awful speech. I mean, that was terrible! Maybe Martin should be in charge of speeches from now on? I did crack up over Philips expression during the speech. You could tell he was thinking "oh...thats not good...."and I also admit to have laughed at Philips comments about Elizabeth's hair. It wasn't nice, but I laughed. That really wasn't a great look on her, she looked way older than she should at her age. And I generally think Elizabeth looks quite classy. 

I also liked Philip and Margarets one scene. I think they would get along pretty well. Also, Philips expression when Elizabeth gave the speech was quite sweet. 

I hope he did too. I wish we had gotten to see him tell everyone 'I told you so'. It would have been really fun to see him say that to Tommy. Its got to be so rare for someone to be right and Tommy to be wrong. I did love the expressions from different people during the speech. I had hoped during the speech Elizabeth would realize how awful it was and start saying something else. I'm still surprised that it was Lord Altincham who suggest the Christmas speech changed from radio to TV. That seems like something they would have thought of on their own or Philip would have since he suggested cameras in the Coronation.  

[toolazy]

49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

I hope Martin threw in a very well deserved "I told you so" to everyone after that God awful speech. I mean, that was terrible! Maybe Martin should be in charge of speeches from now on? I did crack up over Philips expression during the speech. You could tell he was thinking "oh...thats not good...."and I also admit to have laughed at Philips comments about Elizabeth's hair. It wasn't nice, but I laughed. That really wasn't a great look on her, she looked way older than she should at her age. And I generally think Elizabeth looks quite classy. 

I also liked Philip and Margarets one scene. I think they would get along pretty well. Also, Philips expression when Elizabeth gave the speech was quite sweet. 

I laughed, too.  I think that they're making a mistake by not showing more of Elizabeth & Phillip getting along, because I suspect that they mostly did.  By only showing us Phillip being an ass, it paints that hairdo conversation in an entirely different light from the way I think it was intended. I think it was meant to be lighthearted teasing but it came off as needlessly dickish because they haven't established enough of a connection there.  

[CousinAmy]

1 hour ago, toolazy said:

I laughed, too.  I think that they're making a mistake by not showing more of Elizabeth & Phillip getting along, because I suspect that they mostly did.  By only showing us Phillip being an ass, it paints that hairdo conversation in an entirely different light from the way I think it was intended. I think it was meant to be lighthearted teasing but it came off as needlessly dickish because they haven't established enough of a connection there.  

Lighthearted teasing about Helmet Hair (for example) would be one thing, but implying that Elizabeth is not sexually desirable because of her hairstyle is quite another, especially when the whole idea of Philip looking elsewhere for pleasure is hanging in the air between them. 

 

In addition to whatever criticism Lord A had about Elizabeth, a newspaper article I read from that time also mentioned her frequent visits to the race track as another factor in the public's dissatisfaction with the Queen! 

[Pallas]

23 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

Lighthearted teasing about Helmet Hair (for example) would be one thing, but implying that Elizabeth is not sexually desirable because of her hairstyle is quite another, especially when the whole idea of Philip looking elsewhere for pleasure is hanging in the air between them. 

True. The problem is, Peter Morgan wanted that little moment to give Philip and not Elizabeth a reason to raise the topic of more children -- so that Elizabeth would be surprised rather than nervous, and then not actually rebuffed -- and establish how each stood in the matter. While teasing about hair.

Not that married couples don't introduce huge topics using just such sly segues. And both Smith and Foy did great jobs of looking as if this were often their manner with each other, a style that's taken root after years of mismatched yet stalwart matrimony. The hinges showed, that's all, taking any lightness out of the repartee.

 

Quote

a newspaper article I read from that time also mentioned her frequent visits to the race track as another factor in the public's dissatisfaction with the Queen! 

But her home-breds were running!  And at the track, The Queen was allowed to favor one party over another, and show it.  

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

They seemed nervous about meeting people they felt they have no connection with,

They're always meeting people they have little to nothing in common with; that's part of the job. Whatever point that scene was trying to make, I think it completely failed.

[rubyred]

It was kind of a problematic scene, but the bit that stood out the most to me (in bad way) was the Queen Mother bitching about losing "THEIR divine rights." You never had divine rights, ma'am, you married someone who did. I wish this portrayal of the Queen Mother was more nuanced, although I do think Victoria Hamilton does everything possible with every single syllable.

[VCRTracking]

Yara Greyjoy looked cute in 50s clothes.

Man that speech was pretty bad. Not since Mad Men have I seen something so cringe-inducing involving Jaguar automobiles.

Claire Foy really has QEII's voice and mannerisms down.

"Vidal Baboon". The 60s are coming.

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 1:09 AM, rubyred said:

It was kind of a problematic scene, but the bit that stood out the most to me (in bad way) was the Queen Mother bitching about losing "THEIR divine rights." You never had divine rights, ma'am, you married someone who did. I wish this portrayal of the Queen Mother was more nuanced, although I do think Victoria Hamilton does everything possible with every single syllable.

A constitutional monarch has no "divine rights". George VI became King because the government and Parliament didn't want Edward VIII.

Also the whole concept of divine rights isn't ancient. F.ex. in Sweden the king was originally chosen until 16th century. 

[WatchrTina]

I've been binge-rewatching seasons 1 and 2 and I just spotted a VERY insider joke.  "Zadoc the Priest" is an Anglican hymn traditionally sung at British coronations.  We heard it in season 1 in that episode.  It's reprised in this episode when Elizabeth is "crowned" with the big hair dryer.  The lyric about "anointing" comes just as the hairdressing is putting on the finishing touches with hair spray.

Heh.  That was clever.

[PinkRibbons]

I just got an email from netflix with the Christmas Speech from this episode. It made me want to look up the real thing, and so:

[CousinAmy]

I saw that clip! (Although Netflix neglected to mail it to me!) I was struck by her pronunciation - I've never heard an "accent" like that. We've all heard English actors and performers from Great Britain from that time period and there's no comparison! "My owwwn Howwwme."

This year's message: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42475052

Edited December 26, 2017 by CousinAmy

[dubbel zout]

56 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

I was struck by her pronunciation - I've never heard an "accent" like that.

There was a fascinating, much-too-brief discussion between Emma Thompson and Claire Foy on a Graham Norton Show in November about the queen's accent. Both agreed it was sui generis and difficult to portray properly. (Emma played QE in Walking the Dogs, about the time that intruder got into her bedroom.)

[dustoffmom]

"sui generis"

Bravo!  Your post sent me immediately to ascertain the meaning of this term.  One I admit I was completely unfamiliar with.  Great turn of phrase and double points for excellent usage dubbel zout!

[PeterPirate]

On 12/23/2017 at 0:44 PM, PinkRibbons said:

I just got an email from netflix with the Christmas Speech from this episode. It made me want to look up the real thing, and so:

I gotta say, Queen Elizabeth gave that first Christmas Speech with a lot of poise.  Foy's reproduction seemed a little less forceful.  

[PinkRibbons]

Claire actually looked more nervous than QE2 did, but that was probably more meant for the audience to understand how uncomfortable she was, since they were doing a replica of that speech to show how the character felt about it, not a perfect reproduction. What I do like is that little moment at the end of both the Real Speech and The Crown's Speech when you see Elizabeth's eyes flicker to the someone on the side with relief and happiness.

Edited December 26, 2017 by PinkRibbons

[Clanstarling]

I watched the Queen's Christmas speech yesterday, and found it amusing that she replayed her original broadcast (all the while referring to herself as "she"). But I found her surprisingly warm and personal. It's the only time I've ever watched her speeches, outside of the news. I also thought she was lovely visiting the injured from the Manchester attacks - and amused when she referred to Phillip's "unique sense of humor."

[iMonrey]

Quote

One feature I like about this show's episodic approach is the little spotlights for one-off historical characters like Lord Altrincham (and the future Lady Altrincham, Patricia Campbell, played by Yara Greyjoy).

I totally did not recognize Patricia Campbell. 

For whatever reason, I found this episode to be the most compelling of the season. Possibly because of the outsider's viewpoint, and also because I knew it was Elizabeth who ended the traditional debutante balls, so it was interesting to learn when and why. Also found the actor playing Lord Altrincham very good and very relatable. When he turned around and Elizabeth was standing there in the office I gasped - I really wasn't expecting that any more than he was!

[WatchrTina]

16 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

What I do like is that little moment at the end of both the Real Speech and The Crown's Speech when you see Elizabeth's eyes flicker to the someone on the side with relief and happiness.

What I noticed is how both of them smiled at the end in what I took to be a forced manner.  I feel certain there was a stage direction on the prompter or she had been coached to be sure to smile when she finished.

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I knew it was Elizabeth who ended the traditional debutante balls, so it was interesting to learn when and why.

I wonder what it was like that first year when the presentation to the Queen was cancelled?  I ask because the debutante business is still going strong here in America and I suspect it's still happening in the UK.  I certainly saw the photos in the paper when I was growing up and I think women were still being "presented" while I was in college in the early 1980s.  The parties that precede Mardi Gras in New Orleans are put on by "krewes" and include the presentation of debutantes.  So I suspect that wealthy young women still make their debuts in London society but that there is no long any involvement by the royal family.  I presume young women are "presented" to society (like in the USA) at balls put on by their family or the debutante society that they belong to, but there is no ritual curtsy to the queen any more.

ETA:  I found an article that answered some of my questions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1581822/Recalling-the-lost-era-of-the-debutantes.html

Edited December 26, 2017 by WatchrTina

[PeterPirate]

Queen Elizabeth made some gestures with her hands in her real speech.  This was during parts that were not included in the show's version.  The movements appear spontaneous to me, and I think they indicate her genuine belief in what she was saying.

Spoiler

The excised part included a reference to Ghana becoming part of the Commonwealth.  I suppose they had to cut it out of the episode because it would have spoiled or conflicted with the episode Dear Mrs. Kennedy. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by PeterPirate

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 12/20/2017 at 3:05 PM, andromeda331 said:

I'm still surprised that it was Lord Altincham who suggest the Christmas speech changed from radio to TV. That seems like something they would have thought of on their own or Philip would have since he suggested cameras in the Coronation.  

Elizabeth said that giving the speech (and being made up for it made her feel like an actress.  That was not a compliment in her world.

On 12/12/2017 at 1:50 PM, dubbel zout said:

For some reason, what annoyed me the most about this episode was Altrincham being unable/unwilling to type his damn article himself.

He probably didn't know how.  Eton didn't educate typists.  That was women's work.

On 12/20/2017 at 3:05 PM, andromeda331 said:

I hope he did too. I wish we had gotten to see him tell everyone 'I told you so'. It would have been really fun to see him say that to Tommy.

He would never have done so.  Ir would have been wildly inappropriate, and he likely wanted to keep his job!

From the recap:

I can't figure out whether this speech actually happened. Elizabeth and Philip did visit a Jaguar factory, but in 1956, which would have been before Philip went on his royal tour; conversely, the Altrincham article did run in 1957. 

Vulture points to the 1954 Christmas broadcast:  https://www.royal.uk/christmas-broadcast-1954

Edited December 27, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

On 12/12/2017 at 1:50 PM, dubbel zout said:

For some reason, what annoyed me the most about this episode was Altrincham being unable/unwilling to type his damn article himself.

He probably didn't know how.  Eton didn't educate typists.  That was women's work.

Hunt and peck. I'm sure an OE could have figured it out somehow if he were that desperate. 

[AZChristian]

As a newcomer to the world of "The Crown," I am fully enjoying all the background and comments here.  As a little old lady living in Arizona, I don't have any personal anecdotes about meeting royalty, but I do have a "once-removed" experience.

On our third trip to London, we contracted with a company that specializes in Harry Potter tours.  We had a private driver for 11 hours to take hubby, granddaughter and me to sites all around southern England.  (It was the most I've ever spent on a one-day vacation experience, and worth every penny!)

Shortly after getting into the car for the first time, I asked our driver - Gordon - if he would mind me asking a bunch of "stupid American tourist" questions.  He chuckled and said he would be delighted.  My first question:  "Have you ever met the Queen?"  

He told of an occasion when his son was to be part of a group given an award by the Queen.  Gordon was working as a taxi driver that day, but wanted to see the ceremony.  He parked in a back alley nearby and snuck in the back door of the venue.  He was standing off to the side near that rarely-used door when there was a flurry of activity.  He looked to his right, and there stood HRH Queen Elizabeth - about two feet from him.

Stupid American tourist question:  "Oh my goodness!!!  What did you say?"

Totally honest straight-faced answer from Gordon:  "Nothing.  One does not address the Queen unless she speaks first."

So she may be out there meeting her subjects, but protocol still reigns.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/20/2017 at 2:05 PM, toolazy said:

I laughed, too.  I think that they're making a mistake by not showing more of Elizabeth & Phillip getting along, because I suspect that they mostly did.  By only showing us Phillip being an ass, it paints that hairdo conversation in an entirely different light from the way I think it was intended. I think it was meant to be lighthearted teasing but it came off as needlessly dickish because they haven't established enough of a connection there.  

I laughed because the line was funny, but I don’t think it was delivered right. For example in season 1 when Philip make the statement that Elizabeth could “get on her knees” there as no doubt it was a “hubba hubba sexy times await us” comment and that Elizabeth was 100% game, and NOT an comment about abuse and control, or a threat. But that’s because we had seen them as a couple who was enjoying each other and Elizabeth wanted a good excuse not to go back to the office. Now had Philip said the line about the hair in private, with a kiss and a seductive ass grab or something, we would know he was teasing and it was NOT mean spirited at all. 

[lorbeer]

Actually I found the last scene quite real. The Queen Mother was upset because it was the end of an era I guess. I think for them it was loosing their status a little bit so one would expect they weren't going to be happy about it. Especially that it was forced on them so it felt more unnatural or so it's seemed so. 

And I must say - I was quite disappointed myself that the debutante balls were done - and I'm not even an English or American, so why would I even care :) I didn't know about that before watching the episode... I honestly thought that it's still a thing.

I laughed at Phillip's comment about Elizabeth's hair. :)

[scrambled eggs]

I did not properly appreciate Lascelles' dogs when I saw this episode.

[Tyro49]

Yara Grayjoy indeed - now that you mentioned it, I recognize her. But I thought she was the actress (i can't remember her name) who played King Alfred's wife in The Last Kingdom. Was it the same lady, or is it just that I've watched The Last Kingdom more recently than GOT?

[Anothermi]

Different actresses.

Although I knew I recognized the actor playing what's-her-name in The Crown, I just couldn't remember where from either.

[Tyro49]

14 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Different actresses.

Although I knew I recognized the actor playing what's-her-name in The Crown, I just couldn't remember where from either.

Thanks.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 12/9/2017 at 5:40 PM, Helena Dax said:

Speaking of Philip, he made me laugh when he was joking about Elizabeth's hair. And I loved his little scene with Margaret. Vidal Baboon, LOL.

I did love his scene with Margaret.

 

On 12/9/2017 at 10:56 PM, dubbel zout said:

I know. I buy the Queen Mother being bitter about losing her perks and privileges—she was the last Empress of India, after all—but sneering at the boxer from Elm Street was a bit much. I've read in more than one place that Queen Elizabeth has no snobbery at all, which makes sense to me because she's at the top of the heap. She has no reason to care about position. She's safe!

I had a hard time believing she wasn't horrified while she was reading it. "Tone-deaf" doesn't begin to describe it.

I literally had to pause, I was seized with such a vicarious mortification. TERRIBLE speech, utterly cringe-inducing. They definitely should've listened to Martin.

 

On 12/18/2017 at 9:28 AM, Clanstarling said:

I was wondering that too - I did think Phillip "heard" it. 

I did not take his jokes as "gentle teasing" - given the precarious state of their marriage and the slight dig that Elizabeth, not Phillip, is the one who wants another child. Plus, Had an ex who did the same thing. It doesn't feel gentle at all when it's coming at you unless your marriage is rock solid and you are both satisfied with it.

I would have thought Elizabeth just returned to her old style - if it hadn't been so much longer on virtually the next day. 

His essentially holding his future sexual performance over her head really bothered me. As a few posters have already pointed out it's about context. We're coming off of several episodes where Philip's affections seem to be cooling--as such, his teasing has an edge to it, or at least it did to me. Telling your wife "with your current hairstyle, you're not attractive enough for me to have sex with but here are a couple of movie stars who are"--seems cruel.

Did the show runners intend to rip off The Queen quite so blatantly?

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Did the show runners intend to rip off The Queen quite so blatantly?

The writer is the same, so I'd say yes.

[Milburn Stone]

Was anybody else aware early on that practically the whole show was a flash-back in time from the first scene? (Until we get past the ITV interview and the slugging the second time?) My first clue was the reprise of the ITV interview! (Which was rather late in the game to realize it.) Just wondering if A) the show early on made it clear that the bulk of the story was in flashback and I just missed it; B) the show faltered by not making this clear; or C) the show being unclear about this was exactly what the show wanted to be, so it can't be called faltering.

I liked very much how Lord Altrincham just seemed like your garden-variety a-hole at the beginning, and then gradually was revealed to the audience (probably a good twenty minutes before the Queen realized it) to be an all right chap.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Ceindreadh]

18 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Was anybody else aware early on that practically the whole show was a flash-back in time from the first scene? (Until we get past the ITV interview and the slugging the second time?) My first clue was the reprise of the ITV interview! (Which was rather late in the game to realize it.) Just wondering if A) the show early on made it clear that the bulk of the story was in flashback and I just missed it; B) the show faltered by not making this clear; or C) the show being unclear about this was exactly what the show wanted to be, so it can't be called faltering.

I liked very much how Lord Altrincham just seemed like your garden-variety a-hole at the beginning, and then gradually was revealed to the audience (probably a good twenty minutes before the Queen realized it) to be an all right chap.

IIRC, they had a “three weeks earlier” (or however long the period was) caption just after the opening credits. 

[Milburn Stone]

8 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

IIRC, they had a “three weeks earlier” (or however long the period was) caption just after the opening credits. 

Oops.

[jjj]

I had to stop midway through this to find out if Lord Altrincham married Patricia (whose name they said so many times in the toffee scene that I thought it must be meaningful!).  And quickly found this picture from their wedding day:  http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-2nd-baron-altrincham-weds-patricia-campbell-69351582.html  (the image will open in a larger size if you click on it).  I loved knowing that for the rest of the episode.  I had never even heard of him before this episode, but for some reason the final captions about his influence brought tears to my eyes. 

I was very surprised at the portrayal of the Queen Mother's dismay of dealing with the "little people" at the end.  She was the great public presence of the royal family during the Blitz, out visiting families who has lost their homes and loved ones during the bombing.  I've always heard this was a big aspect of the great fondness of the British people toward the Queen Mother.   The final scene here  just did not ring true.

In the Christmas message scene, I was surprised at the anachronism of the Queen crossing her legs before she went on the air.  In that period, indeed until very recently, women ("ladies") were taught to sit with their ankles crossed, and never their legs crossed.  (I don't invent these rules; but they were widely taught!)  But golly, I watched the actual 1957 broadcast that was linked above, and the actual Queen had her legs crossed in exactly the same way.  Not sure why this production went for a mirror image of the original broadcast, but the re-creation was remarkable. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by jjj

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, jjj said:

I was very surprised at the portrayal of the Queen Mother's dismay of dealing with the "little people" at the end.  She was the great public presence of the royal family during the Blitz, out visiting families who has lost their homes and loved ones during the bombing.  I've always heard this was a big aspect of the great fondness of the British people toward the Queen Mother.   The final scene here  just did not ring true.

I had the same reaction at first, but I recently started looking at it in a different way.

There is a difference between going out and visiting your unfortunate subjects, and having them come into your home. For example, on a non-royal scale, people might help out at a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving, but most probably would not invite the people to their home for Thanksgiving. Does that tarnish the "good works" people do by helping out?

So, in general, I don't think having  reservation about having the "little people" into her home at the end in any way diminishes her good works during the war. Though the dialogue was unfortunate. As for looking at them as "little people" I think that would be the attitude of the aristocrats and royals in any case. The better off tend to feel superior to the less fortunate in most societies.

[dubbel zout]

Investitures have been held since Queen Victoria, so the general public—or a section of it—being in Buckingham Palace is nothing new. If Morgan was trying to show that the Queen Mother was again bemoaning the demystification of the royal family, there had to be a better way to indicate that.