S02.E07: Matrimonium

[Roseanna]

17 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

So is it a known fact the Queen sent out her spies and knew that Anthony-Jones was bisexual and a philanderer before they got married?

Wasn't it Tony's half-brother (not step-brother)?

Yes, sorry. 

[Autumn]

The palace may have done some checking but by the time of wedding happened Tony had spent a lot of time with the family and won a lot of them over including the Queen Mother.  I think except for the bisexuality you probably would have found some similar things in the pasts of many men of that class at that time.  The Duke of Windsor had married mistresses other than Wallace Simpson and he juggled more than one woman when he was Prince of Wales.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The rules they lived by would drive me crazy.  It's a protocol, not a law or scientific principle.  It can be broken!  It reminds me of a scene in Young Victoria.  Prince Albert enters a room in the palace and finds a table set for a large dinner.  He asks who the dinner is for and a servant says it's for the guards of Charles III (who had died 18 years earlier).  "I see. And how often do they have this dinner?" "Oh, every night, sir."

The example is a rather different case because there was no reason for it.  

If Margaret's engagement had been announced immediatly, she would either have to share the attention in her wedding with the pregnant Queen, or (because the royals didn't at that time appear in publuc when heavily pregnant) marry without the Quen's presence or have to wait for her wedding longer.

From nowadays perpective, it would have been good to Margaret have more time really to learn to know Tony before marriage.     

[Roseanna]

47 minutes ago, Autumn said:

The palace may have done some checking but by the time of wedding happened Tony had spent a lot of time with the family and won a lot of them over including the Queen Mother.  I think except for the bisexuality you probably would have found some similar things in the pasts of many men of that class at that time.  The Duke of Windsor had married mistresses other than Wallace Simpson and he juggled more than one woman when he was Prince of Wales.

The time was different: the British press didn't write anything about mistresses of Prince of Wales. It kept silent about Wallis almost until the end. But Margaret's affair with Townsend had already changed the press.

 The problem wasn't so much Tony's former affairs but whether he would continue in the same manner during marriage or at least keep his affairs secret.

Spoiler

He succeeded better than Margaret whose affairs that became public.

 Although Elizabeth didn't share information with Margaret, Tony had said things to her that showed that he wasn't "husband material". 

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, greekmom said:

I have to say Elizabeth was so dense when it came to Margaret. Townsend was a better choice for the Family instead of Tony and probably would have not resulted in a divorce or issues for the firm.  Elizabeth only gave in because of Margaret's desperation resulting from Peter's announcement of his engagement. 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. 

I think that in the the basic reason for Margaret's unhappiness was her character and that her father spoiled her, which made her believe that she was entitled to everything without giving or losing anything. 

Many women lost their husbands and lovers in the war or saw their children die in bombings or send them away to safety or had to leave their homes for the enem,y. I doubt that very few complained so much than Margaret. They didn't time to do it because their energy was used to their and their family's survival.

 Also generally, we can't decide what happens to us, but we can decide how we realate to them. Margaret decided to be bitter towards life and her sister, she decided to drink and she decided to marry Tony.

Spoiler

And after her marriage failed, she decided to have affairs.  

 It's true that unlike royal men, Margaret had less space in her private life. If she had stayed single and had affairs, they wouldn't have kept secret very long.  And if she wanted children, she had to marry. 

But there were other royals who had difficulties: the present King and Queen of Norway dated nine years in secret, because she was a commoner. before they got a permission of marry.  

[MissLucas]

For those wondering who knew what about Snowdon and his colorful past, Vanity Fair has an excellent article dealing with the romance and marriage. Here's a snippet:

Quote

Sir Alan Lascelles, who had done much to destroy the Princess’s romance with Peter Townsend, was equally unhappy about this one, lamenting to Harold Nicolson, the author and diplomat, that “the boy Jones has led a very diversified and sometimes a wild life, and the danger of scandal and slander is never far off.” Nicolson noted in his diary, “At least Mr. Jones is not a homo, which is rare these days.”

Their coverage of the historical background of the Crown is in general great and worth checking out.

[MaggieG]

Gosh, Margaret was a pill.

I enjoyed the exchange between Tommy and the Queen regarding Tony's secrets. They all looked uncomfortable except Tommy, who looked like he always looks.

[Cheezwiz]

On 12/9/2017 at 10:35 AM, millk said:

They did an amazing job on the dress. It's my favourite royal wedding dress so expectations were high..

Yep, they nailed it. Glad they did such a good job recreating it - one of my favourite wedding gowns of all time.

[plurie]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:10 AM, Roseanna said:

Wasn't it Tony's half-brother (not step-brother)?

In the show, it was BOTH. His half-brother was in first class, his step-brother in second, and poor Tony was relegated to third class. I have no idea what happened in reality.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 12/12/2017 at 5:45 AM, Roseanna said:

If Margaret's engagement had been announced immediatly, she would either have to share the attention in her wedding with the pregnant Queen, or (because the royals didn't at that time appear in publuc when heavily pregnant) marry without the Quen's presence or have to wait for her wedding longer.

Or they could have announced her engagement and had the wedding after Andrew was born. Voilà! The protocol about no family announcements until the baby is born was so silly. NO ONE ELSE IS ALLOWED TO DO ANYTHING FOR NINE MONTHS! Sheesh.

But realistically, her rush to announce to her engagement was just to one up Townsend, which is also silly. Seriously, girl, don't get married out of spite. For that reason alone, a longer engagement would have been a good idea.

Loved the way Tommy described everything he knew about Tony to Elizabeth. Never change, Lascelles!

Margaret’s house staff really have their work cut out for them. I feel like every time we have a scene in her bedroom, she’s throwing things and making a mess!

[MissLucas]

59 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Margaret’s house staff really have their work cut out for them. I feel like every time we have a scene in her bedroom, she’s throwing things and making a mess!

Which is pretty accurate it seems. Stories of her not giving a rat's ass about the workload she put on others and showing no concern for the people working for her (or rather cleaning up after her) abound. The article I linked above mentions some examples. She also had not invited any of the Kensington House staff to the wedding.

Quote

Lord Adam Gordon, the comptroller of the household, summed up the feelings of many of them in a remark heard by William Tallon, who was standing close by. As Margaret passed him where he stood on the top step as the glass coach waited to take her to Westminster Abbey, Gordon bowed and said, “Good-bye, Your Royal Highness,” adding as the coach pulled away, “and we hope forever.”

I can somewhat understand her acting out and making life for her family and the court as miserable as possible. But her treatment of staff and servants is another story.

[Ceindreadh]

On 11/12/2017 at 7:52 AM, MJ Frog said:

Philip lying to Margaret that her father would have been proud, immediately followed by a shot of horseshit under the carriage --  a visual pun, perhaps?

Whether it was a lie or not, I thought it a very sweet gesture on Philip’s part to say it. 

I also enjoyed the scene where he tells Elizabeth his two favourite things about and gets her to ‘pull a pint’. 

 

I was was pretty amused by all the references to Tony’s half brother as my father is from the same town and would know him. 

[TexasGal]

I loved Charles’ kilt and ruffle outfit.  And wondered how they found an actor with those ears!

[Cheezwiz]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Margaret’s house staff really have their work cut out for them. I feel like every time we have a scene in her bedroom, she’s throwing things and making a mess!

When Margaret finally married and moved away, the household staff were THRILLED. I recently read a quote, and I can't seem to locate it - but apparently as her car pulled away for the last time, one of the head butlers was overheard saying "Goodbye Princess Margaret, forever, one hopes".

[WatchrTina]

57 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

wondered how they found an actor with those ears!

They probably used the same technique they used on Matthew Lewis as Neville Longbottom in the Harry Potter movies.  They put a small prosthetic behind his ears to make them stick out.

[Rinaldo]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:48 PM, 2727 said:

Is this a show about Margaret? Which might be interesting but not the one I wanted to watch. Felt the same about Churchill last season.

E-liz-a-beth, please.

I expect it to be about everyone concerned with the evolution of the British monarchy, including various members of the royal family, the people they marry, their staff and advisors, the PMs -- everybody.

On 12/10/2017 at 3:38 PM, Bananna said:

I continued to be uninterested in the Margaret/Antony love story partly because I know how it all ends and partly because I can't really feel that sorry for either of them. 

We know how all of it ends, I suppose. I enjoy seeing what happened along the way, even if fictionalized.

On 12/10/2017 at 6:42 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I think that if Elizabeth had told Margarent what her spies had found out, Margaret would never have forgiven her. Yes, she demanded the truth, but that kind of info never goes down well, and the messinger is never appreciated. Especially given the contentious relationship between Elizabeth and Margaret...all Margaret needed was to find out that Elizabeth had her fiance investigated behind her back. 

I totally agree with all this. And I could see Elizabeth considering all this (my word, Claire Foy is so skillful). She ought to tell her, Margaret asked to be told, but no... admitting that one's beloved was investigated like that would have led nowhere good. 

On 12/11/2017 at 3:03 AM, Roseanna said:

Tommy Lascelles astonished me a bit: he seemed to be tolerant how people lived in private. 

Urbane as Tommy always is, that did seem to stretch it too far: homosexual acts were illegal in the UK then (and famous men were arrested) and the standard line was to speak of them with disgust. No doubt there were exceptionally tolerant people then, as any time, so I can't say it's impossible; and I can always imagine that Tommy figured this was the tone that would carry him through this difficult report most smoothly.

[Runningwild]

Good grief! Could Margaret or Tony possibly get through one scene without a cigarette!

Edited December 14, 2017 by Runningwild
I certainly didn’t say eyeshadow!

[Roseanna]

On 12/13/2017 at 0:54 PM, MissLucas said:

I can somewhat understand her acting out and making life for her family and the court as miserable as possible. 

Margaret can hurt them, but they have their own family and their work, so I think they are miserable only for some moments. Instead, with her bitterness and malice Margaret makes her own life miserable all the time.   

On 12/10/2017 at 5:42 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I think that if Elizabeth had told Margarent what her spies had found out, Margaret would never have forgiven her. Yes, she demanded the truth, but that kind of info never goes down well, and the messinger is never appreciated. Especially given the contentious relationship between Elizabeth and Margaret...all Margaret needed was to find out that Elizabeth had her fiance investigated behind her back. 

Yes, but being silent meant only to move problems to the future. It was far worse that Margaret became unhappy in her marriage.

That's Elizabeth real weakness: she is too kind. In the beginning when the problems are small she doesn't do anything to them and thereby she helps the problems to become great.   

[MissLucas]

37 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Margaret can hurt them, but they have their own family and their work, so I think they are miserable only for some moments. Instead, with her bitterness and malice Margaret makes her own life miserable all the time.    

They also depend on her economically and socially; even in the 50's and 60's the class system was going strong. Domestic bliss (which given the hours staff had to work isn't a given) isn't a substitute for being treated with decency.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

They also depend on her economically and socially; even in the 50's and 60's the class system was going strong. Domestic bliss (which given the hours staff had to work isn't a given) isn't a substitute for being treated with decency.

That's true but I didn't speak of the staff. In the show the person we see Margaret treating badly is Elizabeth. 

She seems totally unable to realize that she is economically and socially dependent on the Queen and the Parliament.

The British class system would of course be unbearable irl and I suspect that one reason of the problems of the post-war Britain was the Establishment's belief that simply being born in the "right" family gave one a right to govern the country.    

At least Elizabeth, unlike Margaret, tries to earn the position she had inherited.   

[txhorns79]

Quote

Yes, but being silent meant only to move problems to the future. It was far worse that Margaret became unhappy in her marriage.

I think Elizabeth read the room, saw how defensive Margaret was being and recognized that saying anything that could upend this engagement would probably blow up in her face, even if she did it for the right reasons.  At some point, you just have to let the adult do what they want and fail or succeed on their own, even if you think they are making a terrible mistake.   

[MJ Frog]

On 12/13/2017 at 6:37 PM, Ceindreadh said:

On 12/11/2017 at 2:52 AM, MJ Frog said:

Philip lying to Margaret that her father would have been proud, immediately followed by a shot of horseshit under the carriage --  a visual pun, perhaps?

Whether it was a lie or not, I thought it a very sweet gesture on Philip’s part to say it. 

Agreed.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:37 PM, Ceindreadh said:

I also enjoyed the scene where he tells Elizabeth his two favourite things about and gets her to ‘pull a pint’.

I'm glad somebody else liked that, too. For being such a d-bag, Philip does have his moments.

Edited December 16, 2017 by MJ Frog
Sometimes proper nouns are better than pronouns.

[GaT]

Margaret & Tony have absolutely no chemistry, I am very bored watching them together.

[dubbel zout]

I think they do have chemistry, but I find them hard to watch because they're constantly belittling and trying to one-up each other at the same time. (I find the characters hard to watch, not the actors: Vanessa Kirby and Matthew Goode are amazing.)

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:10 PM, humbleopinion said:

How is my favorite Caroline Bingley(52 yrs old) old enough to be Matthew Goode's(39 yrs old) mother...acting!

Another 1995 P&P connection that I missed.  Thank goodness for sharp eyes here!

[Dejana]

On 12/8/2017 at 5:57 PM, Roseanna said:

Margarert evidently married Tony because Peter Townsend announced his intention to marry another. And Tony who abhorred marriage in principle, accepted Margaret's proposal in order to make his mother to value her and to get a higher title than his step-brother. What a pair!

I guess Elizabeth didn't reveal Tony's past and present sexual experiences to Margaret because she felt pity towards her. Maybe she should have.

On the other hand, at that time Margaret had to marry, especially if she wanted children.  

And there was a bit of a resemblance with Margaret and the fiancée, though she was younger, I can imagine it rankled:

Edited December 17, 2017 by Dejana

[Otherkate]

On 12/10/2017 at 1:07 PM, biakbiak said:

I was referring only to the Tony sex montages with Margaret and his other lover not Elizabeth and Philip. The ones with Tony I found dull and boring amd lacking chemistry and went on way too long.

I found these long and tedious as well. I don't mind seeing all this play out with Margaret because I think it's important to the overall story, but the sex scenes with Tony are unbearable for me.  When the interminable scene with him and the Asian dancer was going on, I felt like I was watching a boring scene from Flashdance. 

I think the actress who plays Margaret is fantastic, but I'm happy to move on to the next episode. 

[Athena5217]

46 minutes ago, Otherkate said:

I found these long and tedious as well. I don't mind seeing all this play out with Margaret because I think it's important to the overall story, but the sex scenes with Tony are unbearable for me.  When the interminable scene with him and the Asian dancer was going on, I felt like I was watching a boring scene from Flashdance. 

I think the actress who plays Margaret is fantastic, but I'm happy to move on to the next episode. 

I agree. I think they were half gratuitous nudity and half hitting us over the head repeatedly with the idea that Tony is not suited for married life.

[MaryWebGirl]

On 12/12/2017 at 6:41 AM, Roseanna said:

 It's true that unlike royal men, Margaret had less space in her private life. If she had stayed single and had affairs, they wouldn't have kept secret very long.  And if she wanted children, she had to marry. 

Sort of a random question, but have royals ever adopted? Like an actual orphan, not a relation from a family member who passed way or something.

[Primetimer]

And only some of it is sexual; the rest is MAN PAIN. Of course.

View the full article

[WatchrTina]

Okay I can't recall where I read it on these boards but someone said that when Tony traveled with his mother and her later offspring one half-brother would ride first class (presumably the youngest -- in the company of his mother), one would ride 2nd class and Tony would travel 3rd class.  Is this true?  If so it goes a LONG way to explaining Tony's behavior in this episode but it's just so categorically awful I have a hard time giving it any credit to the story.  I thought (based on my in-depth research of having watched Downton Abbey) that when an aristocratic household traveled together on a train, only servants rode third class.  I realize anyone could by a 3rd class ticket to save money, obviously, but that doesn't seem to be the motivating factor in this story. We are expected to believe that Tony's mother was so class-conscious and title-hungry that she she imposed strict class-conscious distinctions between her own children even when they were traveling together and that she held her eldest son's class to be no higher than that of a servant?  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 12/18/2017 at 8:17 AM, WatchrTina said:

Okay I can't recall where I read it on these boards but someone said that when Tony traveled with his mother and her later offspring one half-brother would ride first class (presumably the youngest -- in the company of his mother), one would ride 2nd class and Tony would travel 3rd class.  Is this true?

Tony said it to someone (I can’t remember if it was Margaret or maybe the couple) during this episode. 

ETA: Here’s the quote from the show:

So it's most likely to be an earldom - what they'll give me to make me acceptable. Not a fucking dukedom or a marquisate. But as husband to the Queen's sister, I'd still rank higher than the man my mother took as her second husband, the Irishman, when she left my father. And I'd rank higher than the son she gave him, little Brendan, le vicomte. On our trips to Ireland, he, Brendan, would travel first class in the train and my stepbrother would travel in second class, and I was made to travel third. The runt son from the unsatisfactory first marriage with no title. And a polio-twisted leg.

ETA 2: I don’t know why the show had him say that his stepbrother was in second class. Tony’s mother had two sons with her second husband: Brendan (the viscount in first class) and Martin (I’m assuming this was the kid in second class). Both of them were Tony’s half brothers. His mother’s new husband had no other children so Tony did not have a stepbrother. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Weird spacing

[WatchrTina]

Thanks @ElectricBoogaloo.  I knew I heard it somewhere.  So Tony said it in the ep.  I wonder if it was true.

I'm suddenly having a flashback to John Hurt in some past role opining "Aren't people AWFUL"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm suddenly having a flashback to John Hurt in some past role opining "Aren't people AWFUL"

I’ll go with the Seinfeld version: 

Edited December 18, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[CousinAmy]

Embarrassing disclosure: I was eleven years old. I read a newspaper article in which it was said, [palace watchers] "don't think it will take."

I had never heard that phrase before and I thought it had something vaguely to do with sex. I was too embarrassed to ask my mom what it meant and I think I was 60 by the time I realized that it just meant, "wouldn't last."

I was a smart kid (I remember reading about the Suez crisis in the newspaper!) but those were innocent times. If only I'd known then why the marriage wouldn't "take."

[txhorns79]

Quote

"But, as husband to the Queen's sister, I'd still rank higher than the man my mother took as her second husband, the Irishman, when she left my father." That is some Passions-level exposition right there. I am surprised Jeremy didn't respond, "You mean your father Ronald, the barrister?"

Oh Passions, where every plot point and relationship had to be restated to the audience 47 times during a given episode.  "Hello Antonio, my son, who is a policeman, as well as being the husband of Sheridan."  And Sheridan was friends with Princess Di!  Everything really does come full circle. 

[dustoffmom]

Passions!  I relished it!  So full of itself, so ridiculous, so utterly campy!  Every plot twist ever imagined crammed into 30 minutes.  I wonder, are any of them still working these days?

[CousinAmy]

I've been reading some contemporaneous articles in the New York Newspapers, mostly the NYT and Long Island's Newsday, which was the paper I grew up reading. Apparently Fry backing out of the wedding was a huge scandal, meriting several days worth of coverage on this side if the Pond. The official reason was that he had developed jaundice, and was too weak to attend the festivities. People thought it best that the Palace choose the next fellow, to insure suitability.

Somehow the son of the Queen's gyneocologist (the one who delivered Charles and Anne, but not Andrew) got the job. Also a doctor, he was said to be a friend of Tony's.

The papers ultimately reported that jaundice hadn't been the real issue; Fry had paid a small fine for a minor offense back in 1952, and that was the reason he had to bow out.

[mamajane]

Oh! Here's a PSA from your friendly neighborhood midwife:

That's how childbirth was in the 50s and into the 60s. My grandmother went to the hospital, was knocked out with some drugs, and they seriously just pulled the baby out with forceps. Fun fact: It's how Sylvester Stallone injured his mouth and has a droopy smile.

Fathers weren't allowed in the delivery rooms back then, so it wouldn't have been at all strange for Philip not to have been there. The Crown didn't mean to portray a c-section at all. It was actually a very well researched portrayal of a birth for that time period. Mothers didn't commonly breastfeed back then either, both my grandmother's were taught that breastfeeding was only for the poor and that the modern, and therefore superior thing to do was to provide formula (available via prescription), or a ghastly concoction of condensed milk and corn syrup, which is what my mother was fed. Eventually the hippie movement had influenced birth and breastfeeding and the completely unconscious deliveries faded from fashion.

On 12/17/2017 at 11:17 AM, Athena5217 said:

On 12/17/2017 at 10:29 AM, Otherkate said:

I found these long and tedious as well. I don't mind seeing all this play out with Margaret because I think it's important to the overall story, but the sex scenes with Tony are unbearable for me.  When the interminable scene with him and the Asian dancer was going on, I felt like I was watching a boring scene from Flashdance. 

I think the actress who plays Margaret is fantastic, but I'm happy to move on to the next episode. 

I agree. I think they were half gratuitous nudity and half hitting us over the head repeatedly with the idea that Tony is not suited for married life.

I hated it. I don't care how hot Matthew Goode is supposed to be. I'm going to sound like a total prude, and I'm not (I love Outlander). "Hitting us over the head repeatedly" is a perfect way to sum it up. It wasn't necessary. I think I was triggered by it. I was engaged someone who looked very like Matthew Goode and he was not faithful, was emotionally abusive and condescending, and uggghhh.

[Spotlight]

Why was tony limping and hiding a cane when Margaret came to see him midway through the episode. What was that all about? What am I missing here?

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, Spotlight said:

Why was tony limping and hiding a cane when Margaret came to see him midway through the episode. What was that all about? What am I missing here?

He had contracted polio as a child. He managed to overcome a limp by strenuous training (I guess it returned when he was tired as implied here) and he campaigned his whole life against the discrimination of the disabled.

[dubbel zout]

I don't know why they showed him hiding the cane—Margaret knew he'd had polio, and it wouldn't have been surprising to see him use a cane now and again. It's not as if they were in public, where he might be less likely to want to use it.

[Spotlight]

8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

He had contracted polio as a child. He managed to overcome a limp by strenuous training (I guess it returned when he was tired as implied here) and he campaigned his whole life against the discrimination of the disabled.

Thanks for the info MissLucas

[Clanstarling]

On 12/10/2017 at 0:38 PM, Bananna said:

Good god, Armstrong-Jones' mother was a bitch. Kudos to that actress, she really played the social climbing uninterested mother part well. Even on the way to the wedding, she just did not care. 

I was so excited that I recognized Duckface, and very pleased with myself when I confirmed it on my phone.

 

On 12/10/2017 at 7:34 PM, PRgal said:

While I realize men’s expectations were very different back in the day, Philip playing squash while Elizabeth was In labour seemed arrogant in my 2017 eyes. And that “twilight” she was given creeped me out.  So they used forceps to drag the baby out?  

Maybe there's a squash court in the basement of the palace? In any case, men weren't allowed at deliveries back then, so he had nothing to do but wait. Seems like physical exercise might help some of his own jitters. 

When I was taking Lamaze classes back in the 80's, they pulled out the forceps and they freaked me the heck out. I was doing okay with my anxieties before then. They really are huge - somehow the idea of the baby's head isn't so bad, but the possibility that steel salad tongs might be used flipped me out. Fortunately, my natural (not by choice) childbirth was fast and problem free.

On 12/11/2017 at 7:20 AM, Capricasix said:

I confess that I don’t really like Matthew Goode. I was unimpressed with his character in Downton Abbey, and I’m not fond of Antony either.

Me neither. I didn't care for him in Downton. In fact, when everyone was talking about Lady Mary's husband, I was like, wait, has Dan Stevens changed that much? I'd totally forgotten his character - willfully, I think. I don't find him attractive either - but different strokes as they say.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:15 PM, Rinaldo said:

Urbane as Tommy always is, that did seem to stretch it too far: homosexual acts were illegal in the UK then (and famous men were arrested) and the standard line was to speak of them with disgust. No doubt there were exceptionally tolerant people then, as any time, so I can't say it's impossible; and I can always imagine that Tommy figured this was the tone that would carry him through this difficult report most smoothly.

Well, we've never seen Tommy with a woman, have we? (just kidding)

On 12/19/2017 at 2:57 AM, MissLucas said:

He had contracted polio as a child. He managed to overcome a limp by strenuous training (I guess it returned when he was tired as implied here) and he campaigned his whole life against the discrimination of the disabled.

I didn't get that it returned when he was tired, and was kind of baffled at how he was doing just fine in the conga line.

It struck me in this episode just how much Margaret is like Uncle Nazi. Whiny, in love with love, wanting everything without having to do anything, and blaming everybody but themselves. On the other hand, I did kind of feel for her when Elizabeth had to break yet more bad news to her. Elizabeth should know better than to be unequivocal about her support. And she did have the most glorious smile looking out of her wedding carriage.

So, Townsend married a 19 year old. Given how young Margaret was when they became a couple, it does say something about Townsend's tastes in women, doesn't it?

Edited December 20, 2017 by Clanstarling

[PinkRibbons]

I personally was shocked that Margaret was acting so rude to Elizabeth the day after (or maybe even the day of!) she had just given birth. Maybe it's a cultural thing but I was raised to never ever upset a woman who has just given birth. She's supposed to be spoiled and fawned over for at least a few days. When she's still abed exhausted is certainly not the time to come in and pick a fight or just delve into anything that might upset her. If I was Philip or the Queen Mother and had heard that conversation I would have tossed Margaret out of the room by the scruff of her neck and told her she could give it a few extra days.

[Capricasix]

On 2017-12-18 at 4:12 PM, dustoffmom said:

Passions!  I relished it!  So full of itself, so ridiculous, so utterly campy!  Every plot twist ever imagined crammed into 30 minutes.  I wonder, are any of them still working these days?

Wasn’t Justin Hartley on Passions? I never watched it, but I did watch him as Adam on Y&R, and now, of course, he’s on This is Us.

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

f I was Philip or the Queen Mother and had heard that conversation I would have tossed Margaret out of the room by the scruff of her neck and told her she could give it a few extra days.

Yes!  I was hoping that Elizabeth would have ordered her back, saying something like “Your Queen has not dismissed you and you forgot to curtsy.”  Alas, she takes the high road more often than I would.  Seriously, Tony and Margaret deserved to make each other miserable.

I hope at least once in my life I can use the phrase, “The narrow Christian path is not to his taste.”

[dubbel zout]

6 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I hope at least once in my life I can use the phrase, “The narrow Christian path is not to his taste.”

Tommy does get the best lines.

[Bec]

While I think it's so childish that Margaret just wants to announce her engagement before Peter can announce his, I don't think it's too much to ask of Elizabeth to let Margaret announce the engagement before Elizabeth announces her pregnancy, instead of making Margaret wait until after the baby is born.

Just let her have this one, if for no other reason than so she can quit pouting about how you never let her have anything!

On 12/11/2017 at 9:43 AM, greekmom said:

I have to say Elizabeth was so dense when it came to Margaret. Townsend was a better choice for the Family instead of Tony and probably would have not resulted in a divorce or issues for the firm.  Elizabeth only gave in because of Margaret's desperation resulting from Peter's announcement of his engagement. 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. 

I don't know, seems to me she would have gotten bored with Peter Townsend eventually.

14 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

So, Townsend married a 19 year old. Given how young Margaret was when they became a couple, it does say something about Townsend's tastes in women, doesn't it?

Seriously. What kind of 44-year-old man goes for a 19-year-old? I find grown men who diddles teenagers pretty suspect. It's not quite pedophilia, but it's still kind of skeevy. I know it was a different time, but come on, even the old-school moustaches thought it was weird.

Princess Margaret was a teenager, too, when they became a couple. He was a younger man then, but still far older than her.

It's not so much the age difference that makes it skeevy. Teenagers are at such a vulnerable age, it just seems predatory for any fully-grown adult to take advantage of their inexperience and hormonal state. The footing wouldn't be as unequal between, say, a 30-something and a 50-something, even with the age difference.

[CousinAmy]

27 minutes ago, Bec said:

While I think it's so childish that Margaret just wants to announce her engagement before Peter can announce his, I don't think it's too much to ask of Elizabeth to let Margaret announce the engagement before Elizabeth announces her pregnancy, instead of making Margaret wait until after the baby is born.

Just let her have this one, if for no other reason than so she can quit pouting about how you never let her have anything!

I don't know, seems to me she would have gotten bored with Peter Townsend eventually.

Seriously. What kind of 44-year-old man goes for a 19-year-old? I find grown men who diddles teenagers pretty suspect. It's not quite pedophilia, but it's still kind of skeevy. I know it was a different time, but come on, even the old-school moustaches thought it was weird.

Princess Margaret was a teenager, too, when they became a couple. He was a younger man then, but still far older than her.

It's not so much the age difference that makes it skeevy. Teenagers are at such a vulnerable age, it just seems predatory for any fully-grown adult to take advantage of their inexperience and hormonal state. The footing wouldn't be as unequal between, say, a 30-something and a 50-something, even with the age difference.

But the fiancee seemed like a mature person, not like a high school girl. And for her it seemed like a good match. I don't know where the concept came from that a mature man can't be attracted to a young woman - it happened, and happens all the time. I met my guy at 18, engaged at 19, married at 20. And that was in the late '60s. 

 

Don't forget Elizabeth and Philip also had an age gap - they met when she was a young teenager and he was already an adult. There is film of them from that time. (Although I don't think he was sexually attracted to her, but he knew she would be the Queen of England someday...)