S02.E07: The Most Disappointed Man

[Superpole2000]

The very last scene with the call from prison was the best part of the episode.

I am not a great fan of drug addiction storylines, and this show now has three of them. Actually, add in Jack's alcohol addiction, and we have four of these storylines. It seems a bit repetitive, especially when they bring William back from the dead for no good reason. All of this addiction storytelling feels like the writers looking for an excuse to make the characters do questionable things. A great example of this is Kevin's "nightmare" speech to Sophie. What was that crap? Could they not think of any better way to introduce more drama into their relationship? He even repeated himself just to be sure she got the insult.

Poor Toby. He always has to drag Kate out of a funk. She is such a downer...on everything...including her own wedding.

[Cardie]

I was surprised that Randall didn't immediately run out and bring the deaf four-year-old home with him. Because he thinks he can handle anything. *eye roll*

I did find the episode emotionally satisfying. For the first time Toby and Kate seemed like two people deeply in love. There was nuance in the portrayal of Deja's mom.  I cried for the first time in a long time.  And it was at the scene of the two judges comparing notes.

Kevin's storyline not bringing any tears, only exasperation, however.

[elle]

26 minutes ago, chabelisaywow said:

Maybe too expensive for rights?

Oy, nothing like being quoted to see the glaring typo in your original post (fixed now)!

"Time after Time" rights being expensive is what I thought of as well.  What I was trying to say is that it seems that Cyndi Lauper would be cool about having her song on the show and maybe sing a version herself.

[Marley]

I hated this episode. Almost worse then that stupid firefighter one last year.

Im sick of everything Randall pretty much. His speeches and the way he purses his lips annoy me. Such a know it all. He’s weird with Déjà too. This Deja storyline is horrible.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[MoonMountain]

Before tonight, I was already a little weary of the Kevin/drug addiction story line. It felt overplayed, and like the writers needed to find SOME kind of ongoing conflict for Kevin. Watching this episode, I found myself thinking,multiple times, "How is it that NO ONE is noticing he has a problem??" And became further annoyed at this topic, because...SOMEBODY would have noticed by now. But, when I realized that that's the whole point...he's gotten this far into his addiction in a short amount of time with no one close to him noticing -- it's really heartbreaking. No one sees Kevin. Suddenly I don't totally hate this story line, I do think it works, it's just a little basic.

I finally realized what bothers me about Sophie too -- the makeup dept used a very yellow foundation on the actress, which doesn't match her neck at all, and makes her face look unnatural. I'm surprised none of the makeup artists noticed this watching the older episodes -- should be an easy fix.

Toby was actually likable in this episode. I even liked the "talk" with Jack and him telling Kate about it.

Randall is the worst. Sometimes hard to believe it's the same character from last season (I blame the writing, not so much the acting. These guys can only do so much with what is written for them)

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

The very last scene with the call from prison was the best part of the episode.

I am not a great fan of drug addiction storylines, and this show now has three of them. Actually, add in Jack's alcohol addiction, and we have four of these storylines. It seems a bit repetitive, especially when they bring William back from the dead for no good reason. All of this addiction storytelling feels like the writers looking for an excuse to make the characters do questionable things. A great example of this is Kevin's "nightmare" speech to Sophie. What was that crap? Could they not think of any better way to introduce more drama into their relationship? He even repeated himself just to be sure she got the insult.

Poor Toby. He always has to drag Kate out of a funk. She is such a downer...on everything...including her own wedding.

It is a bit of overkill. But was I the only one who thought Kevin was going to end with "I need help" or "I need help and I don't want to burden you"  That was the worst script and since he has done it before, awful.  I forgot the Sophie character was pregnant so maybe she really needed time off and they didn't want to send Kevin to rehab instead.

William's character in aftershow posted said "in rehab we are told not to leave before the miracle" and he almost missed it. Maybe we all have to hang in at times waiting for that help, that light.  So many never have it, I listen to their stories of abuse, emotional and physical and wonder how they were able to keep putting one foot in front of the other. That some rich guy would judge without knowing anything about someone was arrogant but that is part of Randall's education, the one not taught in school.

Edited November 8, 2017 by debraran

[Blakeston]

So let me get this straight - when Randall was a baby, a black judge explicitly explained to Jack and Rebecca why it's important for black children to have black people in their lives, who can relate to their experiences.

But they still didn't bother finding any black people for him to spend time with until that incident at the pool when he was eight?

What the hell, Jack and Rebecca?

[ShadowFacts]

5 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

I thought it was going to be a much more scathing letter but with the same subject matter that she wrote in the episode. Along the lines of "how dare you judge my family, family is family, bleh blah bloo, etc."

I think it was bad enough -- saying you better get used to seeing us because we're coming back until you do your job -- really disrespectful and when you disrespect people in authority, watch out.  I guess we're supposed to think that because of that letter, he recused himself.  I say in real life it wouldn't work that way, and though it was good that he did, how magically lucky that they got the judge who instantly, happily approved, no questions asked.  It just rang false to me.  Young William speaking out to his judge wasn't unbelievable to me because he felt he had nothing to lose;  Rebecca had a lot to lose by skirting contempt.  She would have been better off connecting with the social worker to see how to make their case stronger.  Did they not have a lawyer?   Plus, I'm not forgetting that Rebecca knows who/where the father is and is apparently not forthcoming with that crucial information. 

[LadyNebula]

Oh, Randall. Don't go toe to toe with Kitty Forman. You'll never win. 

[JudyObscure]

33 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

What the hell, Jack and Rebecca?

That's what I said when they approached the judge at the water fountain.  Even after he told them that they weren't allowed to approach him outside the courtroom while he was attached to their case, they were all "Yeah, but,  blah blah attempt to influence blah blah," and I thought he was going to  punish them right there and then by postponing their case for six months or so.  Then Rebecca compounds the offense by writing him a lecturing letter.  Wow.  The judges I know would not have taken that well at all.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, SuzyLee said:

One nitpick: A judge in real life would never, ever, ever invite people in an active case back to his chambers to have an off-the-record conversation about the details of the case.  Come on, show.

Especially to tell them that they are being racist and biased.

 

6 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

Kevin's story is making my head hurt. Make it stop. I think my trouble with it is that it seemingly very sudden and almost deliberate. Maybe I just don't know enough about addiction. I always assumed that it was a slow build. It seems like he dove head first into an addiction that he showed zero signs of previously. 

I think he got a head start, so to speak, because he was addicted to pills when he broke his leg before. He kicked and was clean, but taking them again triggered his addiction.  If he hadn't had the previous problem, the build probably would have been slower.

[Haleth]

Unpopular opinion, I guess.  I cannot be on Team Deja's Mom until she fixes her own life.  Sharing blood should count for nothing if it puts the girl in a dangerous or unhealthy situation.  Judgmental?  Hell yeah.  A drug addicted felon with a bloody face?  Randall was right in that, in standing up for Deja.  (Not so right in yelling at the social worker who obviously does care.)  But it's good that he softened his stance and gave Mom their phone number since it meant so much to Deja.

The judge in Randall's adoption was judgmental too-- but he did have a point and we know Randall grew up with identity issues.  

Not caring about Kevin or Kate right now.

[llewis823]

5 hours ago, Cardie said:

And it was at the scene of the two judges comparing notes.

I missed this part. In what part of the show was this? I want to go back and rewatch this scene.

[Aileen]

Did anyone get the vibes that William was planning on liking himself after smoking crack before Randall showed up? I can't figure out why else the belt was on the kitchen table. He quickly picked it up when he knew someone was at the door.

2 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

I missed this part. In what part of the show was this? I want to go back and rewatch this scene.

During the end montage.

[Paloma]

8 hours ago, Amethyst said:

There's no doubt that Rebecca and Jack loved Randall and would raise him in a loving home.  But I can see the judge's concerns.  As a Black man, Randall would have entirely different experiences in life than the rest of his family.  We've seen that several times in the show.  And if he has questions about why things are the way they are, he'll inevitably go to his parents.  But it's different to hear the explanation from someone who realizes it's wrong, versus someone who understands it because they experienced it themselves.  The judge had to keep all that in mind.  But he did understand his own bias, so it was smart of him to recuse himself.  And the right decision was made in the end.

I understood the judge's concerns also, but it bothered me a lot that he was not taking into account the fact that Randall had been with these parents since birth and would be bonded with them after a year. It sounded like the judge was suggesting that they would take Randall to put him in a foster home until they could find a black family that would adopt him. That could be emotionally devastating to the child! Babies and toddlers are not like puppies and kittens that can easily adapt to losing the parents that nurtured them and going to a new home, and who knows how long it would take to find Randall a permanent home.

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think it was bad enough -- saying you better get used to seeing us because we're coming back until you do your job -- really disrespectful and when you disrespect people in authority, watch out.  I guess we're supposed to think that because of that letter, he recused himself.  I say in real life it wouldn't work that way, and though it was good that he did, how magically lucky that they got the judge who instantly, happily approved, no questions asked.  It just rang false to me.  Young William speaking out to his judge wasn't unbelievable to me because he felt he had nothing to lose;  Rebecca had a lot to lose by skirting contempt.  She would have been better off connecting with the social worker to see how to make their case stronger.  Did they not have a lawyer?   Plus, I'm not forgetting that Rebecca knows who/where the father is and is apparently not forthcoming with that crucial information. 

Yeah, that Do Your Job line really stuck out at me. That was disrespectful and it felt like white lady telling a black man to get to work.
If it was ever found out that Rebecca knew the identity of the father and didn't come forward with it so he could properly relinquish parental rights, she could have lost Randall.
 

21 minutes ago, Aileen said:

Did anyone get the vibes that William was planning on liking himself after smoking crack before Randall showed up? I can't figure out why else the belt was on the kitchen table. He quickly picked it up when he knew someone was at the door.

During the end montage.

That was to shoot up, as an arm tourniquet.

[abourgeois]

Quote

Did anyone get the vibes that William was planning on liking himself after smoking crack before Randall showed up? I can't figure out why else the belt was on the kitchen table. He quickly picked it up when he knew someone was at the door.

I think he was planning to shoot up, not smoke, the crack. Hence the needle. The lighter was to heat the crack to a liquid in order to shoot it. I assume the belt was to tie around his arm to pop a vein?

On Kevin's addiction story, I think they're getting it mostly right. My ex was an addict, starting with crack and a stint in rehab before I met him. He was sober for six years and then hurt his back and started getting pain pills prescribed. The first time, the addiction took months to progress to the level that Kevin's is at. BUT, the subsequent times (and there were many), it was quick and seamless the way Kevin's has been. And each time, I did not notice (or rather, I did not allow myself to notice) until it was really, really bad. Until you've loved an addict, you'll never fully grasp the denial part of that love. You believe the excuses and you even make the excuses on their behalf when there is no explanation. You hold on to every tiny last bit of hope that they are not using again and that you have not "let it happen" again. Breaking that cycle of denial, excuses, and ultimately enabling the addiction can be just as difficult as kicking the addiction itself. I don't fault Sophie or Kate for not noticing or recognizing (yet) the extent of Kevin's addiction, they are still very much in the denial period. Although, Kevin's breakup should be Sophie's first clue, it may not be since he's hurt her before (although I guess it remains to be seen whether or not Kevin cheated during his previous addiction or after he got clean). But relapse is honestly the very last consideration when you love an addict. You don't want to ever believe it's happening, again. 

[PRgal]

41 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Unpopular opinion, I guess.  I cannot be on Team Deja's Mom until she fixes her own life.  Sharing blood should count for nothing if it puts the girl in a dangerous or unhealthy situation.  Judgmental?  Hell yeah.  A drug addicted felon with a bloody face?  Randall was right in that, in standing up for Deja.  (Not so right in yelling at the social worker who obviously does care.)  But it's good that he softened his stance and gave Mom their phone number since it meant so much to Deja.

The judge in Randall's adoption was judgmental too-- but he did have a point and we know Randall grew up with identity issues.  

Not caring about Kevin or Kate right now.

Randall may very well have identity issues had he been adopted by a middle class black family if his school was not too diverse.  Heck, *I* had identity issues growing up (and I grew up with both biological parents) and mostly attended schools which were 20%+ Asian.

Question:  Did US viewers get a language warning due to the judge's use of the n-word?

[MyAimIsTrue]

4 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Question:  Did US viewers get a language warning due to the judge's use of the n-word?

If there was a warning I didn't see or hear it.

I usually don't pay attention to the opening credits in terms of guest stars and I knew I recognized the faces of both male judges but couldn't place them.  Now I know they were played by the great Delroy Lindo and Sam Anderson (my beloved Bernard from "Lost") and I'm once again impressed with the quality of acting on the show from top to bottom.

[Aw my lahgs]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

So let me get this straight - when Randall was a baby, a black judge explicitly explained to Jack and Rebecca why it's important for black children to have black people in their lives, who can relate to their experiences.

But they still didn't bother finding any black people for him to spend time with until that incident at the pool when he was eight?

What the hell, Jack and Rebecca?

I thought that judge was racist as hell.

[Bean421]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

 

I want to hug the writer who came up with the "exposure" idea.  The category is "Family photos: another thing we never knew would be a problem."

 

Mr. Bean is white and I'm black. This is the struggle every year for family pics. What colors to wear that look good on everyone? Struggle. We've found a really good photographer but we've got three different hues in our family and she's worth every penny. 

[Katy M]

So, I was just thinking about this.  I thought Jack and Rebecca were wrong to speak to the judge outside of court.  What they should have done was immediately called their caseworker, see if she knew anything, and then contacted a lawyer, since they were now anticipating a problem.

However, I have to seriously question the judgment of a judge who thinks it's in Randall's best interest to be bounced around from black foster home to foster home rather than be a permanent part of a white family.  A black family probably would have been best straight off the bat, but since that's not what happened, and he's not being abused, I don't know how it would benefit him to take him from the only parents he knows and dump him into uncertainty.

[PRgal]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, I was just thinking about this.  I thought Jack and Rebecca were wrong to speak to the judge outside of court.  What they should have done was immediately called their caseworker, see if she knew anything, and then contacted a lawyer, since they were now anticipating a problem.

However, I have to seriously question the judgment of a judge who thinks it's in Randall's best interest to be bounced around from black foster home to foster home rather than be a permanent part of a white family.  A black family probably would have been best straight off the bat, but since that's not what happened, and he's not being abused, I don't know how it would benefit him to take him from the only parents he knows and dump him into uncertainty.

Maybe there were black families looking to adopt?  But if there were, no one came forward while Randall was WITH the Pearsons.  And Randall could have been like Deja.  

[ShadowFacts]

36 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yeah, that Do Your Job line really stuck out at me. That was disrespectful and it felt like white lady telling a black man to get to work.
If it was ever found out that Rebecca knew the identity of the father and didn't come forward with it so he could properly relinquish parental rights, she could have lost Randall.

This is a big sticking point with me.  She's withholding really important information.  We know that William is pretty much alone in the world with no close relatives, but Rebecca doesn't know that there isn't a grandparent or aunt or uncle, etc. who might want to raise Randall.  In fact we see in Memphis that Randall actually does have blood relatives.  Rebecca made sure Randall never had that chance to be with kin who cared, however remote the chance was.  She should have disclosed what she knew when she knew it.

12 minutes ago, Aw my lahgs said:

I thought that judge was racist as hell.

Maybe, but when push came to shove, he recognized his own bias and stepped back.  Not that common among racists. 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think he got a head start, so to speak, because he was addicted to pills when he broke his leg before. He kicked and was clean, but taking them again triggered his addiction.  If he hadn't had the previous problem, the build probably would have been slower.

I don't know what prescription he's using, but if it's OxyContin, it is highly addictive, fast.  And fatal when combined with alcohol.  That's why only short courses of it are prescribed. 

[AnythingCanBe]

Ultimately, I think the judge was very right about some things and very wrong about some things.  It's just a reality that there were things Jack and Rebecca couldn't offer Randall.  We saw in The Pool that they managed to go eight years without learning how to care for his skin and hair.  We saw in the episode with the martial arts school that Randall was craving black role models.  No amount of love would allow Jack and Rebecca to fully understand formative experiences like being called the n-word for the first time or being followed around a nice store.  Raising a black child isn't the same as raising a white child, and I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that; it's just honest.

Where the judge went wrong was in assuming that those difficulties meant Jack and Rebecca couldn't raise Randall at all (especially after he had been in their family for over a year).  As we've seen, they eventually developed ways to bridge the gap, and Randall grew into a man who is both very confident in his blackness (side note: I loved the head scarf and coconut oil line!) and loved by his white family. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I still have my issues with the writing. This season just doesn't have it, imo, but, I did appreciate the one little clever part they put in when Kevin was looking at diamonds.  The salesperson said the diamonds were "conflict free."   It went right over Kevin's head. lol  Bless his heart.  He took it literally.  The salesperson just overlooked it.  I suppose he's not the first celebrity to not be up on things like that. This part was in character for Kevin. 

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Maybe there were black families looking to adopt?  But if there were, no one came forward while Randall was WITH the Pearsons.  And Randall could have been like Deja.  

The judge said something about "while looking for a family." He didn't have a family ready in the wings to swoop Randall off when they came back to court in 3 weeks.

[PRgal]

Just now, Katy M said:

The judge said something about "while looking for a family." He didn't have a family ready in the wings to swoop Randall off when they came back to court in 3 weeks.

That could be in one week, one year...or even longer.  And the older Randall gets, the more attachment issues he'll have.  What if a family isn't found until he turned five?  I don't think Randall would become the man he is now if he were sent to a new family as an older child.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, debraran said:

I thought the "ashes talk" to me was odd, not if Kate did it but with Toby it felt off. I hope others didn't think so.

I've "talked" to my father-in-law at his grave, which is wierd, even to me, since I'm not religious and don't believe in an afterlife. I've done it at graves of other family members as well. Have no clue why. But I totally bought the scene.

11 hours ago, RogerDodger said:

I think its wrong that my favorite moment of the episode was the social worker's take down of Randall.

It was a most excellent takedown.

11 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Randall was quite judgmental, but I got where he was coming from.  Sometimes I hate that the foster care system wants to reunite families, even if they are fucked up.  I rolled my eyes at Deja’s mom when she said, “I gave her my blood.”  Lady, even mice can give birth, doesn’t make you a mother, and BTW where is Deja’s dad?

People do make their own choices, but the problem isn’t choices, the problem is options.

Deja's mom said the dad left when she was 8 - but that does mean he's out there somewhere (maybe).

Excellent point about choices vs options - it's easy to think they are the same thing.

I, personally, loved Toby's proposal. It was understated (for him) and private - just for Kate. So it was a semi-grand gesture. 

Was it wrong for me to look at the Chips Ahoy and beer and think "Kevin, you're not going to keep that six pack if you keep that up."

Edited November 8, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Lion18]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That Was Us:

 I love this interview better than the show

I know I’m the only one who is not liking this season as I’ve asked friends and family. They love it as much as last year. I’m just not feeling the same as last year

i only liked the Toby/ Kate scenes tonight

I keep watching hoping to get the feeling back from last year

[ChromaKelly]

50 minutes ago, Aw my lahgs said:

I thought that judge was racist as hell.

Nope. He's right. And I'm a white adoptive parent of a black son. The Pearsons were clueless, as was I, although I was a little bit more aware than they were at the time of adoption but I have the luxury of the Internet and transracial adoption having been a thing for 40ish years.
Even though I like to think we're doing a good job of raising a black boy into a black man, there are times when I'm like yeah, we're not black parents and there is SO MUCH he is missing out on. Black friends, coaches, role models can only do so much. Like, my son went to a birthday party for a black friend. She had a lot of family there, and even though my son didn't feel awkward or anything, it was just like, you could tell he's raised by white people. He didn't eat most of the food and asked me "what's this?" with some of it (there was a soul food spread, but also pizza and kid fare for the classmates/friends). He asks me a lot of questions I don't always have the answers to about race. I had to explain The Nod.  This is besides always being an obvious adoptee anywhere he goes with us. Other crap like he's playing with his white sister at a park and some kid comes up to her and says "did you know this black boy is following you?" Not being allowed off the bus by a substitute bus driver until his sister says he lives here, he's my brother please let him off.  Having a breakdown the evening after I show up at school and several classmates loudly questioning why his mom is white. Being asked if his real mom is dead.
I love my son with all my heart, I can't imagine him not being a part of our family. But if there was also a black family who could have adopted him, I honestly have to say he should have been placed with them over us.

[Good Queen Jane]

9 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

I really liked the two judges' scene at the end.

I must have zoned out on this. Can someone please recap it for me?

[watcher1006]

A lot of things going on in this episode but I do like the slow and subtle way Deja is adjusting to being in the Pearson household episode by episode. No single breakthrough, but their daughters are coming to accept her and Deja's level of hostility toward everyone including Randall is subsiding. No big breakthrough, but bit by bit. I think Lyric Ross is playing the part well.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I must have zoned out on this. Can someone please recap it for me?

It was just the adoption judge and William's judge sitting at a table.  William's judge asked adoption judge if he had done any good and was answered with a maybe.  The adoption judge then asked the William judge, and I think he answered no, or I don't think so.

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yeah, that Do Your Job line really stuck out at me. That was disrespectful and it felt like white lady telling a black man to get to work.
If it was ever found out that Rebecca knew the identity of the father and didn't come forward with it so he could properly relinquish parental rights, she could have lost Randall.

This is a big sticking point with me.  She's withholding really important information.  We know that William is pretty much alone in the world with no close relatives, but Rebecca doesn't know that there isn't a grandparent or aunt or uncle, etc. who might want to raise Randall.  In fact we see in Memphis that Randall actually does have blood relatives.  Rebecca made sure Randall never had that chance to be with kin who cared, however remote the chance was.  She should have disclosed what she knew when she knew it.

Great point, it didn't occur to me that the foster system would have looked for relatives to take Randall in if they knew such relatives existed. Even if William didn't have any close relatives, what about the relatives of Randall's biological mother? I don't remember the show mentioning or showing them but, for all we know, they could have been happy to take him in or at least to get to know him.  It really was unfair of Rebecca not to think about this when deciding not to tell anyone about William. I wonder if the biological mother's relatives will come up in a future storyline.

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Great point, it didn't occur to me that the foster system would have looked for relatives to take Randall in if they knew such relatives existed. Even if William didn't have any close relatives, what about the relatives of Randall's biological mother? I don't remember the show mentioning or showing them but, for all we know, they could have been happy to take him in or at least to get to know him.  It really was unfair of Rebecca not to think about this when deciding not to tell anyone about William. I wonder if the biological mother's relatives will come up in a future storyline.

Replying in the Speculation thread.

[Aw my lahgs]

42 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Nope. He's right. And I'm a white adoptive parent of a black son. The Pearsons were clueless, as was I, although I was a little bit more aware than they were at the time of adoption but I have the luxury of the Internet and transracial adoption having been a thing for 40ish years.
Even though I like to think we're doing a good job of raising a black boy into a black man, there are times when I'm like yeah, we're not black parents and there is SO MUCH he is missing out on. Black friends, coaches, role models can only do so much. Like, my son went to a birthday party for a black friend. She had a lot of family there, and even though my son didn't feel awkward or anything, it was just like, you could tell he's raised by white people. He didn't eat most of the food and asked me "what's this?" with some of it (there was a soul food spread, but also pizza and kid fare for the classmates/friends). He asks me a lot of questions I don't always have the answers to about race. I had to explain The Nod.  This is besides always being an obvious adoptee anywhere he goes with us. Other crap like he's playing with his white sister at a park and some kid comes up to her and says "did you know this black boy is following you?" Not being allowed off the bus by a substitute bus driver until his sister says he lives here, he's my brother please let him off.  Having a breakdown the evening after I show up at school and several classmates loudly questioning why his mom is white. Being asked if his real mom is dead.
I love my son with all my heart, I can't imagine him not being a part of our family. But if there was also a black family who could have adopted him, I honestly have to say he should have been placed with them over us.

Imagine the Pearsons were black and Randall was white. The outrage about racism that would cause. 

[Seelouis]

4 minutes ago, Aw my lahgs said:

Imagine the Pearsons were black and Randall was white. The outrage about racism that would cause. 

Because white kids have role models everywhere they look.  And they don’t have to be taught about being stopped by cops or followed in stores.  And I say this as a white parent of trans racially adopted daughters. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, elle said:

What version of "Time after Time" is "Kate's"?  Cyndi Lauper's version is there and I would not have been surprised if she would have sung it for the episode.

The first time we heard Kate sing publicly, she sang "Time After Time" so I assume Toby was meaning a version with Kate singing it.

[himela]

While I was watching Kate and Toby I realized I have never seen them making serious decisions for their life. It seems it either is full drama or full comedy for them. I haven't seen them just live. Just watch a movie, read a book, go on a trip etc. Everything is full drama or full comedy. I don't know them as a couple. I don't know what it is that Toby loves in Kate so much. I mean, the guy adores her. Why don't we see her virtues?

I kinda agreed with the judge; there must have been hundreds of black couples (and I'm not saying it in a racist way at all) who must have wanted to raise a baby and I'm sure Randall would feel way better with them. I mean, judging by the result he has managed to overcome the difficulties and become a great person BUT in my opinion he would be way better off with a family he would feel part of rather than the odd man out. I think it was selfish of the Pearsons to not let him grow up with his kind of people. He would not have the problems he had like he didn't belong.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Kevin imagining himself being a terrible husband and father and then breaking up with Sophie totally reminded me of Xander doing the same thing to Anya on their wedding day on BtVS. 

What really annoyed me about Randall’s pissy attitude was how snotty he was to Kitty Foreman. He acted like it was somehow her fault that Deja’s mom canceled their visit at the last minute. That poor woman is just doing her job. She can’t force Deja’s mom to see her kid. Blaming her for Deja’s mom’s decision was ridiculously immature. 

I loved the scene when he came all hot and then Beth got all worked up so he told her that he thought he was then one who was going to go off and she would calm him down. When he asked if they were switching and she said yes, I totally cracked up. I still love their relationship. 

[Blakeston]

17 minutes ago, himela said:

I kinda agreed with the judge; there must have been hundreds of black couples (and I'm not saying it in a racist way at all) who must have wanted to raise a baby and I'm sure Randall would feel way better with them.

A black baby born addicted to crack (which Randall presumably was, based on his comment in the pilot) in 1980 wouldn't have had hundreds of couples lining up to adopt them. Plenty of unwanted black babies spent their entire childhoods in the system, rather than with loving parents.

The judge certainly has a point that it's ideal for a black child to be raised by black parents. But to take a one-year-old away from loving, competent parents with whom he's bonded is horrifying, particularly if the child would be placed in a foster home while the state searches for parents willing to adopt.

[marceline]

This was the first time I ever REALLY disliked Randall and Beth. Randall works my nerves regularly but I can't recall ever being this pissed off by Beth. These two are really drunk on their own hype as Deja's saviors. She's a FOSTER CHILD. Yes, your job is to protect her but you don't get to decide whether or not her mother can see her. The goal is and should be to reunite that family if it can be done safely. The moment Randall saw how beat up her mother was he should've known that's the reason she refused the visit but he just kept judging her like she was tormenting Deja for shits and giggles then went on to bask in his own superiority.

As for that judge, the moment he said he had questions for the social worker, I knew what his hangup would be. I remember numerous cases in the 80s and 90s where people opposed cross-racial adoptions and you still see it now. It was a frustrating thing to watch but I'm glad the show chose to address it. It was nice seeing how Rebecca fought for Randall and it highlighted the immense emotional journey she went through in order to become his mom in her heart. 

This show does an excellent job of showing how the past is prologue. The memory of Jack means so much to Kate but the flip side is that his memory is utterly destructive to Kevin. He loved Jack but deep in his heart of hearts he's afraid of becoming him. I didn't like this addiction storyline when it started but as the adult child of an alcoholic, I've got to say they are doing an excellent job of hitting all the ways that kind of upbringing can mess with you if you don't deal with it.

Edited November 8, 2017 by marceline

[methodwriter85]

7 minutes ago, marceline said:

This was the first time I ever REALLY disliked Randall and Beth. Randall works my nerves regularly but I can't recall ever being this pissed off by Beth. These two are really drunk on their own hype as Deja's saviors. She's a FOSTER CHILD. Yes, your job is to protect her but you don't get to decide whether or not her mother can see her. The goal is and should be to reunite that family if it can be done safely. The moment Randall saw how beat up her mother was he should've known that's the reason she refused the visit but he just kept judging her like she was tormenting Deja for shits and giggles then went on to bask in his own superiority.

Yeah. Randall is oblivious, but I didn't think he would be THAT oblivious. I thought seeing how messed up her face was, Randall would have softened in his stance at least a little bit.

[himela]

I find it normal that Kevin feels like an empty shell. He always was the good looking, popular kid who had no obvious problems like Kate and Randall did so Rebecca and Jack never felt they needed to pay extra attention to him. I society's eyes if a kid is beautiful and social they can do everything. Kevin never needed to try to be more intellectual, more deep etc. His beauty could open all doors for him. Now he realizes that money and materials are not enough to make him happy.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, marceline said:

These two are really drunk on their own hype as Deja's saviors.

There were far too many people with savior mentalities last night.  Randall and Beth wanting to save Deja, the white judge and William, the black judge and Randall.  Even to some degree Kevin with Sophie.  

[ally862]

I hope Kate's pregnancy works out but since others are convinced it won't, I wonder if losing the baby will be something she and Rebecca finally bond over since Kate has been through it too.

I loved the scene with Toby and the urn.  It was cheesy but totally believable as something Toby would do.  I also appreciated the camera work in that scene which isn't something I usually notice.  But I liked how the camera was focusing on Toby from behind the urn.  Almost like when the camera is looking over someone's shoulder.  It made it seem more like he wass talking to a living person.

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, Aw my lahgs said:

Imagine the Pearsons were black and Randall was white. The outrage about racism that would cause. 

Do you actually think a black family would have been allowed to take a white baby home in 1980?

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ally862 said:

I hope Kate's pregnancy works out but since others are convinced it won't, I wonder if losing the baby will be something she and Rebecca finally bond over since Kate has been through it too.

 

The way Kate usually responds to Rebecca, I don't think that would go over to well.  She would say "Really, Mom?  you lost a baby, too?  So, now it's all about you?"  And, then she would probably say (and this is to some extent true) that it wasn't the same, because Rebecca still ended up with babies, while Kate doesn't.