S06.E04: Reversal

[Angel12d]

2 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I think the T-Spheres and the Canary Cry are just short of being deux ex machinas. It's so convenient and when they don't use it the audience is left to wonder WHY they don't which is a terrible position to be in. It's basically a lose-lose. Not only that but both cost money in terms of CGI (which could be EASILY spent on other things like sets or giving the actors soda during breaks). 

I really don't get why the writers feel like they need to add these aspects into the show especially considering said aspects don't suit the show at all. If this they wanted a show more grounded take away the Canary Cry, if they want to show vigilantes working hard in the field and actually fighting take away the T-Spheres. 

I honestly can't see ONE good reason why they should keep them on the show. And no, the canary cry being a character trait from the comics isn't a good reason.

I still think Sara's Canary Cry device was the best because it was a nice nod to the comics but also more realistic and wasn't overkill. I really cannot take much more of all this screeching at each other and looking like they're gonna take a crap while they do it. Sorry. Haha.

11 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I feel like he's unnecessary? I can't think of one fight where I thought, "Wow, they would have lost/that would have been so much harder without Curtis/his t-spheres." 

Exactly. If you can remove a character from scenes/the show and nothing changes, I feel like they're just surplus to requirements and Curtis falls into that category now, IMO.

[BkWurm1]

Now for a few non-Olicity observations and nitpicks. 

KC looks so much better with dark hair.  Looks even better not on my screen but this was probably the best they’ve used her so far.  No one is questioning if she’s their dead daughter (sorry Quentin, this is the reason I was fine you were not there) or conflicted about fighting her.  Even when Dig made the comment that killing for fun didn’t seem like her style and Dinah tried to make it sound like Dig was confusing her with deadLaurel, I didn’t actually worry she was right.  In this episode, BS was just a plain evil henchwoman even if James called her a partner but then he tried to kill his last associate so I’m not putting too much stock in the title, especially since she has no idea of the final objectives (but was fine with a 300million casualty rate of the objective she thought they were after)

Speaking of Cayden James killing Alena…

I don’t really understand James’ plan.  He confronts Felicity and Alena in the old Helix headquarters and definitely plans to kill Alena and implies the same for Felicity.  Only, the team gets in the way.  But if they hadn’t, Alena would have been dead and per what he said, so should Felicity.  He gave orders to “make it as humane as possible” and then walked away.  It seemed like he was going to kill both of them. 

But at the end of the episode, it turns out getting Felicity to take down the firewall and leave her digital fingerprints means keeping her alive had been his plan the whole time?  Or was it actually a last minute plan to get her to do it for him?  I would go with the theory that it was only after she popped up on the server that he crafted a new, better plan, but that still begs the question of how he was going to avoid leaving his finger prints before.

Or, if he always intended for her to live, how was she supposed to survive his orders to “make it as humane as possible”?  Were we to believe he had given other orders to supersede his instructions?  And even if he kept her alive, how was he going to make her incriminate herself?  Why would she if he’d just killed Alena and if he wanted Felicity to do the hacking, wouldn’t it make more sense for Alena to be the hostage to force her to comply?

So then I lean again more toward it was a last minute plan, but on screen it’s just so hard to tell.  When Felicity hacks into the vault sever, I can’t tell if James was surprised and pleased she’d met the challenge or just expected it. The way he played the moment, I’d believe either way.  He does that mysterious thing very well.  Anyway, I’m really not sure if he was ten steps ahead or when he was cornered, cleverly found a way out that served his purpose even better. 

Moving on to another topic.

I  really enjoyed Diggle this week and honestly, I haven’t missed Oliver suiting up.  I’m sure I will eventually, but so far, I’ve been very happy with Diggle doing the action stuff.  And I really enjoyed that he got to do the job well this week.  I know it can’t last, but I liked that they just dropped the drugs and the secrets. 

I just enjoy Dig getting to do stuff and lead and I swear I’m more interested in his fights for some reason.  A lot of it probably has to do with the fact that this episode did a great job building up the stakes and setting it so I FELT those stakes and cared about the outcome.  I was actually worried during the fights a few times.  I have to go back to 520 and the ladder stunt for the last time I was actively concerned during a fight scene. I know logically no one is going to get badly hurt in random episodic run of the mill fight but good writing (and directing) circumvents that certainty long enough to draw you in and they did that in this episode.   

Nitpick.  This is the second week in a row where a clearly Oliver shaped figure is seen through the frosted glass of the front doors to her apartment only for Felicity to act surprised someone is on the other side of the door.  Really poor direction on that (and probably writing – Do the writers ever watch their show?  Do they not know Felicity has a semi-transparent door?)

This is random but when the scene shifts to the techno dance party Alena and Felicity go to, the camera starts on a statue of an ugly two headed baby. Made me think of The Flash

Felicity says something like “Saving the world is what we do, that and fix our mistakes”  Arrow and LoT have more in common than I realized.    

“Sonic cries leave ripples in the air” Really?  I’m having trouble believing that. 

Still cracks me up that after needing three handprints to access the super-secret internet vault, with like a three foot deep metal door, the door then just stays wide open allowing the team to waltz in later, lol.    

Edited November 3, 2017 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

27 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I still think Sara's Canary Cry device was the best because it was a nice nod to the comics but also more realistic and wasn't overkill. I really cannot take much more of all this screeching at each other and looking like they're gonna take a crap while they do it. Sorry. Haha.

 

 

14 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don’t really understand James’ plan.  He confronts Felicity and Alena in the old Helix headquarters and definitely plans to kill Alena and implies the same for Felicity.  Only, the team gets in the way.  But if they hadn’t, Alena would have been dead and per what he said, so should Felicity.  He gave orders to “make it as humane as possible” and then walked away.  It seemed like he was going to kill both of them. 

But at the end of the episode, it turns out getting Felicity to take down the firewall and leave her digital fingerprints means keeping her alive had been his plan the whole time?  Or was it actually a last minute plan to get her to do it for him?  I would go with the theory that it was only after she popped up on the server that he crafted a new, better plan, but that still begs the question of how he was going to avoid leaving his finger prints before.

Or, if he always intended for her to live, how was she supposed to survive his orders to “make it as humane as possible”?  Were we to believe he had given other orders to supersede his instructions?  And even if he kept her alive, how was he going to make her incriminate herself?  Why would she if he’d just killed Alena and if he wanted Felicity to do the hacking, wouldn’t it make more sense for Alena to be the hostage to force her to comply?

I think that Cayden knew Team Arrow was in the building. If he is able to monitor Lian Yu, then he probably has eyes all over Star City, including in his old Helix headquarters. He timed giving the order to kill them (and his departure) just before he knew Team Arrow was going to attack. He probably could see them on his little tablet. So my guess is that Cayden always planned to frame Felicity.

Edited November 3, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

17 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So then I lean again more toward it was a last minute plan, but on screen it’s just so hard to tell.  When Felicity hacks into the vault sever, I can’t tell if James was surprised and pleased she’d met the challenge or just expected it. The way he played the moment, I’d believe either way.  He does that mysterious thing very well.  Anyway, I’m really not sure if he was ten steps ahead or when he was cornered, cleverly found a way out that served his purpose even better. 

From the way I saw it, it looked more like a ten steps ahead plan. He went to Helix to kill Alena to get Felicity and the Team to follow him to try and stop him so that he could get inside the vault and then later frame Felicity for it. He was out in public when Diggle recognized him on camera, so I figured he must have known that the team was going to come rescue Felicity. Then in the vault he seemed more like he was more of slightly impressed that she came in but in a "my plan is working out the way I was hoping" way.

17 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I just enjoy Dig getting to do stuff and lead and I swear I’m more interested in his fights for some reason.  A lot of it probably has to do with the fact that this episode did a great job building up the stakes and setting it so I FELT those stakes and cared about the outcome.  I was actually worried during the fights a few times

Same. Diggle's fights as GA are more interesting to watch for some reason. It's probably mostly the newness of it, but the physicality DR (and/or DR's stunt double) brings to Diggle as GA's fights so far have been actually fun to watch, not just with that big limo fight scene from 603 but also small fights like the beginning of 603 or his fights during 604. There's this blunt force that Diggle gives rather than this quick calculated type of fighting that Oliver had that's interesting to contrast to.

Edited November 3, 2017 by way2interested

[OnceSane]

Everyone is allowed to express their opinions, even when those opinions differ from the majority.  Telling your fellow posters what is acceptable to post or to leave this site is NOT okay and will not be tolerated.

If you think a post is questionable, report it, and the mods will determine the appropriate action.  If you have a problem with someone's differing opinion, please use the ignore feature.

[SmallScreenDiva]

14 hours ago, Chaser said:

As for their 'partnership', the way that line was delivered I got the impression he was amused by the concept and wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice her for his cause.

The way he said their partnership was a democracy made me laugh because the delivery sure as hell said it's not. 

Michael Emerson as Cayden James is already perfect. There's such a quiet menace about him. I'm just praying Arrow doesn't screw this up. I'm disappointed, though, that we probably won't see a lot of scenes of Emily with Michael because villains/heroes tend to be separated until the big battle. He looks like he'll be working more with KC. 

There's so much to enjoy in this episode and you guys have already mentioned a lot of them upthread. I laughed at the nosy patron at the restaurant. You know she was only using the anti-vigilante legislation so she can ask about Oliver & Felicity ;) I kinda groaned at Oliver mentioning William wanting to come to dinner. The kid is 12, he should understand what a date means and yet the writers still keep writing him like he's 5. The part where Oliver mentions taking Felicity to a fundraiser and her groaning and making a face is too cute and so real. Like, yeah, you get massive GF/BF points for boring functions like that. 

Slight nitpick about the role reversal, when Oliver mentions something like "this is how it feels to be you." Except it's really not, because Felicity was never left behind like Oliver was here. When Oliver is out on a mission, Felicity is right there with him in his ear. 

I'm meh on Helix Dynamics but I'd take it over something that includes Curtis' name. 

@Morrigan2575 your boy Rene was on fire with his quips tonight. I laughed at "Did Laurel also make out with this one first? (Of Dinah's incredulous look) It's a legitimate investigatory question." "What are you saying, Hoss, I mean, Boss?" And the bit about his fantasy football league.

The TV Guide recap mentioned hoping for a redemption arc for BS and I laughed my head off. Really? Didn't you see her break that guy's next for no reason whatsoever? Even Cayden admonished her for it. She is being portrayed as a blood-thirsty villain. Stop asking for a redemption arc, just because ...

I like seeing Felicity on top during their love scenes, it's really their thing. But I wonder if there's a more practical reason for it shooting-wise, like maybe EBR would get squished and disappear under SA's bulk. 

And yes, this is extremely petty of me, I don't care, but I found it hilarious that the scene that had KC making out with a day player was followed by a great Olicity that included confirmation that yes, Felicity Smoak is the mayor's girlfriend.

[BunsenBurner]

I rewatched the episode with my brother. This is the most he has been glued to the this show since the 1st season. I wasn’t allowed to talk!  I thought it was great. 

He liked everything about it but the mumbling.  

I counted 6 times CH and FS were told to dumb down their answers.  I think 5 were speak English.

The servers were too easily moved and the lighting was silly.

BS/KC walks like she’s been to too many fashion shows and decided that the way models walk looks villainous.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by BunsenBurner
Apparently I can’t spell when commenting on my phone.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they've used the Canary Cry extremely well since it's been introduced as a meta power. Yeah it's power fluctuates but it isn't used to the point where it makes fighting useless, and neither BC/BS rely on it to much. 

The T-Spheres on the other hand....outside of the first episode are completely useless and not used as well as they could be. Curtis just throws them around and that's all. At least our resident screamers fight hand2hand as well.

47 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 

 

The TV Guide recap mentioned hoping for a redemption arc for BS and I laughed my head off. Really? Didn't you see her break that guy's next for no reason whatsoever? Even Cayden admonished her for it. She is being portrayed as a blood-thirsty villain. Stop asking for a redemption arc, just because ...

 

Everyone has a hope that they wish to see fulfilled. It's no different from wanting any kind of story or ship to happen.

[Trisha]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Yeah, I feel like he's unnecessary? I can't think of one fight where I thought, "Wow, they would have lost/that would have been so much harder without Curtis/his t-spheres.

I almost wonder if they're leading somewhere with that. He seemed pretty angry at Dig for benching him from the action and making him work comms instead.

[BunsenBurner]

Did anyone notice that on 2 occasions that BS’s sonic waves were not fluid! They came out as lines instead of waves?

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, BunsenBurner said:

Did anyone notice that on 2 occasions that BS’s sonic waves were not fluid! They came out as lines instead of waves?

I feel like it all depends on the angle. When it's filmed from right in front of her it looks different from the side angles. And I guess it depends on the director if they use wind machines when filming the Canary cry.

[Mellowyellow]

Random thought: Before going off with Alena Felicity told Oliver next time they're starting with dessert first. 

Should have stuck to that plan before they went on that next date!

Upon rewatch it seems like they've really gone out of their way to "Criminal minds" BS. I mean they've had Slade, Ra's and Darhk who were all mega evil but they've gone out of their way to make BS (who is essentially just a henchwoman) really murderous and "unsub-like". I wonder if that is to quash hopes of a redemption arc. She ticks all the boxes for those insane criminals who get off on killing they portray in those crime shows.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

The TV Guide recap mentioned hoping for a redemption arc for BS and I laughed my head off. Really? Didn't you see her break that guy's next for no reason whatsoever? Even Cayden admonished her for it. She is being portrayed as a blood-thirsty villain. Stop asking for a redemption arc, just because ...

I can get why people wanted a redemption arc for her. People were upset by how Laurels death was handled, and they see this as a way to get a Laurel 2.0. The problem is that we haven't gotten many indicators this season that she has any real redeeming qualities, even less than on the island when she seemed to have a soft spot for Quentin. This week, we saw her cold bloodily murder several people, even when she didn't have to. She just apparently likes killing people. 

Not that a redemption arc is impossible. This franchise has redeemed plenty of villains (to varying degrees of success) who have done horrible things (Snart, Mick Rory, Nyssa) but are more or less good guys now, so it could still happen. However, they are REALLY going to have to work on her admitting what shes done was wrong, and show real remorse and growth if they want the audience to get behind her. Its why I never bought the redemption of Malcolm Merlyn. He never felt bad for anything he did, he just cared about Thea. I buy the redemption of, say, Captain Cold (who has a similarly evil introduction that BS had) more, because, even if he isn't the angsty type, you did feel that he wished his life had taken a different turn and that he hadn't become a criminal. So its possible, for her to be redeemed, but it wont be easy, and it looks like they arent setting that up right now. 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I like seeing Felicity on top during their love scenes, it's really their thing. But I wonder if there's a more practical reason for it shooting-wise, like maybe EBR would get squished and disappear under SA's bulk.

I wonder if it has something to do with the blooper during the L/O love scene in season 1. Like SA doesn't want to fall and squish EBR, so if she's on top, she'll be fine even if he misses the couch, bed, whatever. 

[apinknightmare]

May I just say that I loved this episode on its own merits, but the absolute meltdown it's caused on reddit is...::kisses fingers:: perfect. 

[KenyaJ]

21 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

May I just say that I loved this episode on its own merits, but the absolute meltdown it's caused on reddit is...::kisses fingers:: perfect. 

Lolz. This makes me even more excited for

the wedding!

[SmallScreenDiva]

22 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

May I just say that I loved this episode on its own merits, but the absolute meltdown it's caused on reddit is...::kisses fingers:: perfect. 

I don't visit Reddit land, any way to see examples of this meltdown? :)

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I can get why people wanted a redemption arc for her. People were upset by how Laurels death was handled, and they see this as a way to get a Laurel 2.0. The problem is that we haven't gotten many indicators this season that she has any real redeeming qualities, even less than on the island when she seemed to have a soft spot for Quentin. This week, we saw her cold bloodily murder several people, even when she didn't have to. She just apparently likes killing people. 

Not that a redemption arc is impossible. This franchise has redeemed plenty of villains (to varying degrees of success) who have done horrible things (Snart, Mick Rory, Nyssa) but are more or less good guys now, so it could still happen. However, they are REALLY going to have to work on her admitting what shes done was wrong, and show real remorse and growth if they want the audience to get behind her. Its why I never bought the redemption of Malcolm Merlyn. He never felt bad for anything he did, he just cared about Thea. I buy the redemption of, say, Captain Cold (who has a similarly evil introduction that BS had) more, because, even if he isn't the angsty type, you did feel that he wished his life had taken a different turn and that he hadn't become a criminal. So its possible, for her to be redeemed, but it wont be easy, and it looks like they arent setting that up right now. 

Yeah I get why some people want a redemption arc, but since I personally wasn't a fan of the character, it's not a story I want to spend time with and I don't think KC will have improved any as a "good doer" character I don't think it's worth doing, especially because also being BS means she'll probably still do the smirking everywhere. And what the hell point of bringing her back as BS would there be in the first place if she was being redeemed? And when a lot of people say they want her redeemed, they mean "redeemed and happily with Oliver" which, again no thank you since I think the actors would still generate anti chemistry and because storywise, not only both Lance sisters but a Lance sister doppelganger Ollie? Yuk. 

29 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I don't visit Reddit land, any way to see examples of this meltdown? :)

I can't see to get any screenshots or anything but think toddler tantrum with complete internet misogyny about FeFe and Friends and she and Oliver switching places (for one damn episode), blah blah cakes. It is funny some of the time but I don't want it to get to the point where their spew becomes so loud it gets so loud media sites start reporting on it again. It's fine if you don't like a character but yeesch. 

[Chaser]

When BS called herself 'Dinah' my first thought was that Laurel SWFs Canaries on all Earths.

[TwistedandBored]

I freaking loved this episode. Olicity was everything. I think everyone was used well. I can't wait to see to more Cayden versus Felicity. I hope they find out he set Felicity up before it actually happens. 

 

Also, Oliver was so cute when he said, "I still have room for desert". Like Honey, you are the desert. I am glad Felicity let him know that too. 

[Mellowyellow]

I was ok with Helix Dynamics yesterday but upon rewatching it, it's really odd! Helix was founded by Cayden James was it not? Why are they naming their company with a name that is related to the big bad?

It's so....odd! I don't hate it but its bloody strange! 

***

Squee squee squee I love how Oliver pushes her against the wall during the make out session but then tells her sweetly he still as room for dessert like he's asking for permission! He is such a darling! *swoons*

[leopardprint]

What I learned from this episode:

The internet is a series of tubes (located in Star City).

I would like to echo the complaints about the sound. The dialogue is very difficult to understand and I have external speakers and since the ads are much louder than the show, it is not the most pleasant viewing experience. I'm curious if it's an app thing or if in broadcast it also sounds garbled? 

Curtis and Rene didn't bother me this episode (Yay!) but Dinah (Boo!), I feel like I am about to start writing "Fefe" style posts about DiDi and her emotionally abusive behavior. I hope her storyline gets going soon, because I can't take much more of her posing and judging. She poses. She judges. She screeches. Rinse and repeat. 

DiDi issues aside, Felicity had a friend! A friend she talked about work with! Huzzah.

I think the pacing for this episode worked really well. They gave enough time for conversations but also went quickly enough I didn't get too bored in the parts I am less interested in. So far, I am liking Diggle's Green Arrow. 

I also enjoyed Oliver and Felicity affectionately ribbing each other, and I totally thought Gas Mask was going to be Vigilante not Oliver, he stills needs to work on his listening skills a bit. 

Lastly, the Cayden James actor is probably too good for this show but whatevs, glad he's here. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by leopardprint

[Mellowyellow]

This is super random but a cute gif in the fanart thread made me stop to marvel at how kiss proof Felicity's lipstick was. 

She went to town on his face during my favourite kiss when she left their date and not a single mark! I don't think I've seen anything like that on the market!

[misgabi13]

On 03/11/2017 at 5:37 PM, Racj82 said:

I still need the show to explain to me how Curtis and his hair works. Whether it's in braids and then a fro from scene to scene or a ponytail that i don't think he could create with the fro he has. It's just makes no sense to me.

My husband firmly believes that his 'whatever' balls put his hair into the braids as soon as his mask goes on and then magically remove them as soon as the mask comes off.  There is no other explanation!

[BkWurm1]

Just a point of clarification about this episode's big plot point.  Aka the part about breaking the internet and that it was all conveniently located in Star City. 

From what they actually said, all that the vault and the three people killed were in charge of were domain names.  So Cayden James was going to take down the internet not by targeting servers or infrastructure, but by creating a program/virus that went after all the site names and made it so nothing could function or connect anymore.  No addresses, no connectivity, no internet.

So the big vault was not supposed to house all of the internet, just the list of the site names. And turning them all into gibberish or making them no longer readable or just wiping them out by the explosion (I'm fuzzy on that part, lol) then it didn't matter how many millions of servers existed around the world, there would be no way to direct or recieve site traffic, so then effectively the internet would be destroyed even while all the coding and content existed scattered around the world somewhere still. 

So yeah, the plot was kind of out there, but not nearly as much as I keep seeing suggested on Twitter and Reddit and elsewhere.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

53 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Just a point of clarification about this episode's big plot point.  Aka the part about breaking the internet and that it was all conveniently located in Star City. 

From what they actually said, all that the vault and the three people killed were in charge of were domain names.  So Cayden James was going to take down the internet not by targeting servers or infrastructure, but by creating a program/virus that went after all the site names and made it so nothing could function or connect anymore.  No addresses, no connectivity, no internet.

So the big vault was not supposed to house all of the internet, just the list of the site names. And turning them all into gibberish or making them no longer readable or just wiping them out by the explosion (I'm fuzzy on that part, lol) then it didn't matter how many millions of servers existed around the world, there would be no way to direct or recieve site traffic, so then effectively the internet would be destroyed even while all the coding and content existed scattered around the world somewhere still. 

So yeah, the plot was kind of out there, but not nearly as much as I keep seeing suggested on Twitter and Reddit and elsewhere.  

Especially since there was a DDOS attack on one of the main DNS servers not too long ago that took down large swaths of the Internet (including Amazon and Twitter) for several hours. 

Reposting the link about the 14 people with 7 keys that control the Internet.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-internet-is-controlled-by-secret-keys-2016-10

Basically the Arrow plot isn't crazy or stupid, it has a basis in fact, just with an Arrow twist (to make for drama/action).

Edited November 4, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[benteen]

Great to see Michael Emmerson debut in this episode.  He's definitely playing the evil version of Harold Finch from Person of Interest.  That character was responsible for revealing the internet to the world back in the 70ss and this one was supposedly trying to bring it down.  He's as good as ever.  Only thing is though is that Cayden doesn't strike me as a season-long villain at all.  He seems more of a 2 to 4 episode villain tops.  Hopefully that will change.

Nice to see Oliver in the Overwatch role.

Even Black Siren was good in this one.

[Chaser]

A few stray observations on my rewatch: 

The lighting was bad during some scenes and I'm grateful for gif makers who brightened the Olicity.

I enjoyed the brief exchange between Alena and Oliver and I hope they interact again. 

Who knew I would watch an episode and think Rene is my preferred newbie. I want Rene and Felicity to interact.

Im glad we got Delicity interaction but I'm frustrated we didn't get any during Diggle's episode. 

Two mins before Cayden was telling BS it was a partnership he was chiding her for her attitude. And during the ending scene she was totally clueless as to his grand plan. He picked up a pet birdie on that island. 

I take back what I said about ME getting a decent performance out of KC. It didn't work.

You know Im sad they went with the dumb of Black Siren.  I really like the idea of Cayden having a Mercy Graves type next to him. 

[tv echo]

13 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I can't see to get any screenshots or anything but think toddler tantrum with complete internet misogyny about FeFe and Friends and she and Oliver switching places (for one damn episode), blah blah cakes. It is funny some of the time but I don't want it to get to the point where their spew becomes so loud it gets so loud media sites start reporting on it again. It's fine if you don't like a character but yeesch. 

Have there been any complaints about Diggle taking over as the Green Arrow for multiple episodes (basically sidelining Oliver) - you know, like 'Diggle & Friends' type complaints?

Edited November 4, 2017 by tv echo

[Racj82]

7 hours ago, misgabi13 said:

My husband firmly believes that his 'whatever' balls put his hair into the braids as soon as his mask goes on and then magically remove them as soon as the mask comes off.  There is no other explanation!

Hilarious. Also probably accurate.

[KenyaJ]

15 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I was ok with Helix Dynamics yesterday but upon rewatching it, it's really odd! Helix was founded by Cayden James was it not? Why are they naming their company with a name that is related to the big bad?

It's so....odd! I don't hate it but its bloody strange!

Even though it's not what I would have chosen, it makes sense to me. Every time I hear "Helix," I think of DNA, and that seems fitting connection for a biotech company. Also, I liked the way Felicity said they were turning something bad into something good. To me, it's like they're atoning for participating in the bad Helix by turning it into something that will help people.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Have there been any complaints about Diggle taking over as the Green Arrow for multiple episodes (basically sidelining Oliver) - you know, like 'Diggle & Friends' type complaints?

Just that he's not the real thing and they hated him not shooting arrows.  (They obsess over the number of arrows used in fights) Some comments on plot holes and drama.  That said,Diggle gets crapped on some cause he's part of the OTA as well so it's not unusual for them to not love him.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

That said,Diggle gets crapped on some cause he's part of the OTA as well so it's not unusual for them to not love him.

Yeah, he's frequently referred to as "Diggshit" (to Felicity's "Felicishit") - LOL

[MissLucas]

So Finch Cayden James just uploaded a virus to something called Arclight? I see what you did there show.

[Mellowyellow]

4 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

Even though it's not what I would have chosen, it makes sense to me. Every time I hear "Helix," I think of DNA, and that seems fitting connection for a biotech company. Also, I liked the way Felicity said they were turning something bad into something good. To me, it's like they're atoning for participating in the bad Helix by turning it into something that will help people.

Ahh that makes sense!!!! I was too preoccupied with ME being evil so I was all "huh? But but but the founder was evil!"

@MissLucas hehehehehehehe! I'm so sad I missed that! Would have squeed!!!!!!!!

[LeighAn]

Did anyone else catch the moment where Oliver gives directions to the new Team Arrow before realising what he's doing and they all look amused or fondly at him and think about 4x01 when Oliver did the same thing with old/retired Team Arrow and they all looked at him like he passed wind, killed their cat and ate the last piece of cake they'd been saving.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Did anyone else catch the moment where Oliver gives directions to the new Team Arrow before realising what he's doing and they all look amused or fondly at him and think about 4x01 when Oliver did the same thing with old/retired Team Arrow and they all looked at him like he passed wind, killed their cat and ate the last piece of cake they'd been saving.

Yep, and here are examples from a lovely gifset of those scenes: 

 

[LeighAn]

9 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yep, and here are examples from a lovely gifset of those scenes: 

 

That's the one! Funny thing is the retired Team Arrow actually begged Oliver to come back and help them with a problem they could no longer handle themselves and then got all judgy when Oliver gave them orders while new Team Arrow could have been more judgy since Oliver effectively abandoned the mission and Team and then came back to give orders but they actually respect him enough to see it with fond amusement. 

[lion10]

38 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Yep, and here are examples from a lovely gifset of those scenes: 

 

 

Yeah, that'll always be one of the stranger moments of Arrow.  "Please come back Oliver, we need your help (and heavily implied leadership ability)!"  "All right, do this, that, and the other and we'll then meet back."  "Uuuuhhmm, why are you giving orders?"  

 

I agree with other posters here that Curtis is borderline useless as a character and I'm not sure why he's still on the show.  Nothing against Echo Klum, but I'm not quite sure what he brings to the table that Felicity doesn't.  Yeah, Curtis is more of an "inventor" and Felicity is more of a straight up "computer geek/hacker", but half the time he's on the screen, he and Felicity are doing the same job.  His jokes are often a "miss" with me as well so I wouldn't mind if he got bumped down to "recurring cast" status.  

The "destroy the internet" plot was an insult to Arrow fans' intelligence.  Alena looked ridiculously hot in this episode, though that might just be my attraction to Marina on The Magicians bleeding over.  It's nice to see Olicity in a functional relationship, I just hope that the writers resist the urge to bring needless drama into it.  

[Hiveminder]

The only needless Olicity drama I want to see is Oliver complaining because Felicity has cold feet and won’t wear socks to bed. 

[bijoux]

On 03. 11. 2017. at 3:11 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I know I'm in the minority but Rene cracks me up. The Hoss/Boss line and the question about Evil Laurel making out with victim #2 amused me.

I'm really becoming partial to Rene this year, which surprises me more than anyone else. That said, I didn't enjoy the comment about the second victim, since BS had just killed her, however, the remark about the Internet and his Fantasy Football League really cracke me up.

On 03. 11. 2017. at 3:12 AM, insomniadreams88 said:

I have never loved Olicity more. This is the Olicity we and they deserve. The date was perfect. The kisses were perfect. Oliver supporting Felicity was perfect. (And it was really obvious he had followed her and Alena.) Oliver using confirmation that he and Felicity are back together to lightly threaten

I'm not saying it needs to be Oliver, but Slade deserves his remaining eye to be gouged out for that insult.

On 03. 11. 2017. at 6:15 AM, WindofChange said:

I love this little move :')

https://twitter.com/smoakyfelicity/status/926301904463892480

The gift of the 9 PM time slot. Insert naughty eyebrow wiggle gif.

On 03. 11. 2017. at 6:33 AM, Mellowyellow said:

You're all going to kick me off the forum for this but the wall make out scene, hot as it was (and it was soooooo hot, with her tugging on his tie and all, pure fanfic stuff there) was not my favourite scene! My favourite scene was when she plastered his face with kisses before she left the restaurant. *SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*

Can someone clarify: Was Felicity fiddling around with Oliver's zipper on the couch? I saw a definite butt grab but she looked like she was fiddling with his fly. 

1. My favorite was actually their fight, because it was just so quintesentially them as individuals and a couple.

2. I think she was trying to undo his belt.

On 03. 11. 2017. at 3:12 PM, insomniadreams88 said:

Still amused that Oliver wore a gas mask while following Felicity. A gas mask.

He still fit into that club way better than Felicity. I don't get why Alena at least didn't tell her to dress down a bit.

On 03. 11. 2017. at 8:44 PM, SmallScreenDiva said:

Slight nitpick about the role reversal, when Oliver mentions something like "this is how it feels to be you." Except it's really not, because Felicity was never left behind like Oliver was here. When Oliver is out on a mission, Felicity is right there with him in his ear. 

 

And yes, this is extremely petty of me, I don't care, but I found it hilarious that the scene that had KC making out with a day player was followed by a great Olicity that included confirmation that yes, Felicity Smoak is the mayor's girlfriend.

I didn't get that comment either. It's not like Oliver ditched their dates at any point, if something got interrupted, they went to deal with it together. Him being in the bunker while she was out in the field surrounded by evil henchmen is a most definite case of walking in the other's shoes/sitting in their chair. The first one not really.

I also feel there's some sort of intenttional parallel between the two make out scenes which were staged very similarly and were used as bookends. I just don't get why.

Can Alena stand in for Curtis as Felicity's funny friend for a while? I really enjoyed her in this episode. Nothing bad needs to happen to Curtis, he can just be busy creating the tech for the new company off screen.

[Commando Cody]

On 11/2/2017 at 9:00 PM, mtlchick said:

So Michael Emerson is the eeeeevil version of Harold Finch without a limp and different glasses, right? 

The walked into the room at the end and I thought "It's the Machine". 

[johntfs]

On 11/3/2017 at 1:45 PM, way2interested said:

From the way I saw it, it looked more like a ten steps ahead plan. He went to Helix to kill Alena to get Felicity and the Team to follow him to try and stop him so that he could get inside the vault and then later frame Felicity for it. He was out in public when Diggle recognized him on camera, so I figured he must have known that the team was going to come rescue Felicity. Then in the vault he seemed more like he was more of slightly impressed that she came in but in a "my plan is working out the way I was hoping" way.

I disagree with part of this.  I don't think he went to Helix to kill Alena but to give additional credence to her.  I think Alena getting wounded was a "happy" accident that occurred when the guy holding the gun on her got jumped. 

My thing is that Cayden James doesn't seem like a person who would need to punctuate his arguments with violence.  He seems to genuinely regret and try to avoid violence.  So why would he strike Alena?  Well, it and the later "attempt" to kill Alena and Felicity certainly helped sell the need for Felicity to act to stop his "evil plan to destroy the internet."  Also, Felicity now considers Alena to be real friend, one who will very likely end up working at her start-up.  Her start-up which will put microchips into the damaged nervous systems of a whole bunch of people.  Microchips that can likely easily be used to take control of those people.  And now Alena will be a trusted part of that start-up and also be trusted by the members of Team Arrow, because Felicity says so.  Felicity, whose actual fingerprints will be on the keyboard that took down the firewall and whose chips will be helping/controlling a whole bunch of people.

Edited November 5, 2017 by johntfs

[way2interested]

16 minutes ago, johntfs said:

He seems to genuinely regret and try to avoid violence.  So why would he strike Alena?  Well, it and the later "attempt" to kill Alena and Felicity certainly helped sell the need for Felicity to act to stop his "evil plan to destroy the internet."

Oh I basically think that that's what his plan was, to attack Alena to get Felicity to try to stop him. I just don't think that Alena's life mattered to him or not. If she died, Felicity would have still tried to stop him, which was what his entire plan centered on, and she "betrayed" him so her dying would have been fine either way to him. Since BS killed those 3 keyholders anyway I didn't figure that he avoids violence but just unnecessary violence (Alena's death would have gotten Felicity to act, so not necessarily unnecessary)

Idk, his plan isn't entirely clear yet so I'll wait to be sure, but it's just how I see it so far.

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Idk, his plan isn't entirely clear yet so I'll wait to be sure, but it's just how I see it so far.

I was confused. At the end he acted like everything went occurring to plan but I don’t get how. 

He told the henchman to kill Alena and Felicity, he couldn’t have known the Team was right outside or that Henchman wouldn’t be quicker on the draw. He didnt seem to expect Felicity to show up in the system when he was hacking. 

I think it would have made more sense if he told BS that it worked out better then he had planned. That he didn’t think any other hacker could handle that situation but when he realized Felicity could he took advantage. I mean he had a whole Team of hackers who he could have used so he wouldn’t have too but he did it himself. 

[Hiveminder]

24 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I was confused. At the end he acted like everything went occurring to plan but I don’t get how. 

He told the henchman to kill Alena and Felicity, he couldn’t have known the Team was right outside or that Henchman wouldn’t be quicker on the draw. He didnt seem to expect Felicity to show up in the system when he was hacking. 

I think it would have made more sense if he told BS that it worked out better then he had planned. That he didn’t think any other hacker could handle that situation but when he realized Felicity could he took advantage. I mean he had a whole Team of hackers who he could have used so he wouldn’t have too but he did it himself. 

Well, as we learned from Chase last season, the villain has as much preternatural foresight and planning skills as the Arrow writers want him to have. 

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Well, as we learned from Chase last season, the villain has as much preternatural foresight and planning skills as the Arrow writers want him to have. 

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a good bit of Chase's "preternatural foresight and planning skills" actually came from Cayden James and Helix.

 

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

He told the henchman to kill Alena and Felicity, he couldn’t have known the Team was right outside or that Henchman wouldn’t be quicker on the draw. He didnt seem to expect Felicity to show up in the system when he was hacking. 

He could easily have known both of those things if Alena was actually his agent in this business.  Alena and Cayden James both know Felicity Smoak works for/with Team Arrow so they were likely counting on Team Arrow's involvement.  Meanwhile, the henchman was probably not ordered to fire until Team Arrow was right outside and ready to strike.  It's very likely that Black Siren was involved to kill/get the fingerprints because she'd be a further lure for Team Arrow to get involved.  As for Alena, that whole bit is just hinky to me.  She comes to Felicity's home with a nasty bruised and a scary story about Cayden James being a Bad Person who wants to do Bad Things.  If Cayden James was close enough to Alena to punch her, he was close enough to shoot her - or have her shot/killed/put down.  So why was Alena allowed to get to Felicity?  Because that puts her close to Felicity, who was likely going to get onto the "break the internet" plot anyway because of the corpses.  With Alena closely involved, Caden James has a mole/intelligence source very close to Felicity (who are probably thinks is the only real threat to his plans) and the rest of Team Arrow, not to mention Felicity's start-up.

Edited November 5, 2017 by johntfs

[insomniadreams88]

Thinking about what Alena said about Cayden’s time in ARGUS custody changing him. Was Alena telling the truth about that? That probably depends on if she ends up being on Cayden’s side or if he just used what he knows about her to his advantage to get to Felicity. Or if Alena only saw what she wanted to in Cayden before and then maybe couldn’t ignore the full truth about him after? 

[johntfs]

52 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Thinking about what Alena said about Cayden’s time in ARGUS custody changing him. Was Alena telling the truth about that? That probably depends on if she ends up being on Cayden’s side or if he just used what he knows about her to his advantage to get to Felicity. Or if Alena only saw what she wanted to in Cayden before and then maybe couldn’t ignore the full truth about him after? 

That assumes that Alena wasn't simply telling Felicity the story that she and Cayden worked out together to get Alena into Felicity's orbit.

[ComicFan777]

As much as I like Alena, I don't think she would necessarily be a good judge of whether Cayden James only became bad after ARGUS - she didn't seem too bothered by killing the person in the elevator last season so it's hazy where she would draw that line.