S04.E03: A Dark Knight: They Who Hide Behind Masks

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Gordon takes matters into his own hands when he travels to Miami in attempts to persuade Carmine Falcone for his help in the fight against Penguin. There, he meets Carmine's daughter, Sofia, who unexpectedly follows Gordon back to Gotham. The battle for Penguin's prized weaponry continues during auction night at the Iceberg Lounge and Bruce's presence puts him on Penguin's radar.

 

Promo:

[paigow]

When did Sonny Crockett join the DC Universe?????

[Chaos Theory]

Bruce Wayne Billionaire Brat is the Bruce Wayne I have been waiting four seasons for.

Barbara Kean in two episodes in a row and in more then one scene.  I can get use to a Barbara heavy season.  I am really liking her.

Just when I was starting to ship  Nygma and his number one fan Zasz goes and shoots her.  Booooo!   Still we have a brain frees Riddler that should make for an interesting time.

And of course there is Jim still the low point of the episode.  Really even the sister of the guy he shouts doesn't blame him?  Still the mob is back in Gotham which is going to make for good times...

And yes who is saying good things about Jim?  That alone is very suspicious.

[HoodlumSheep]

First of all...FALCONE NO YOU CAN'T DIE!!!! WWWWHHHHYYYYYYY. one of my favorite's is dying :( why does this keep happening to me???

Thank you Gotham for granting me one of my greatest wishes for this show: bruce finally beginning to create his playboy persona!

As for the rest of the episode:

• Not fond of the yellow miami filter. It even followed sofia falcone back to gotham. Ick
• Loved the bruce/babs auction scene. 
• Babs got killer moves now. But  i could have done without her and ra's hooking(?) up
• Poor ed lost all his riddle smarts :(
• Poor riddle girl. Rip. We hardly knew ye. Just like zsasz, i liked your outfit.
• Selina, girl, bab's is playing you like a fiddle. Have fun being her lacky. I fell like we've gotten this kind of storyline from her a couple of times already so i'm not too fond of it
• Jim, jimbo, please. No. Just no. You've known sofia for less than a day and you're already kissing? Please stop with these stupid romance plots.
• Zsasz has been 3 for 3 this sesson. :') that has to be a record. Let's hope he's in every episode this season. I wonder where the zsaszettes are though. On vacation?
• Wasn't expecting the short ra's back story.
• And we have a new detective lady! We'll see how long she lasts...

Not a bad episode. Biggest cons for me were the yellow filter and jim being his usual dumb jimbo self. The usual issue with the show. :P

Edited October 6, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[SimoneS]

Jim is way too old for Sofia. She might be conning him about not blaming him for Mario although Falcone does seem way too over it.

I am enjoying Bruce and Alfred. Bruce is coming along nicely developing his alter ego, spoilt Bruce Wayne.

I missed Tabitha. I am not sure about Barbara and Ras. He might kill her and I don't want that.

ETA: I thought Ben McKenzie looked handsome and sexy as hell in bright Miami.

Edited October 6, 2017 by SimoneS

[Danielg342]

Episode Grade:

I think this one earns its marks- or at least could- all because of Sofia Falcone and her plunging necklines.

Give me more of those. Way more of those. Yes please. :D Sofia was hot tonight. Really.

Of course, I also think Sofia was noticeable without needing a neckline that went to her waist...Crystal Reed put a lot of life in her. Not sure I'm seeing sparks with Jim, but at least Sofia won't make me pull my hair out every time I see her.

RIP Myrtle Jenkins...I knew as soon as Google returned no results on you that you were a goner. Pity...she was actually kind of fun.

Oh, and the more made of Billionaire Brat Bruce the better. That, and Barbara holding her own with Ra's al-Ghul...including the kiss. Didn't see that coming.

(One nitpick- Ra's in 125 AD was dressed as a Roman soldier...which made sense since Arabia Petraea was Roman territory...but then the show claimed Ra's was saved by a Sumerian king, when, in 125 that wasn't possible- eight years prior Mesopotamia was entirely Roman, with the Emperor Hadrian giving it back to Parthia in 118. So whomever researched this period of time goofed considerably)

The Bullock Meter:

Well...he was in the episode. The "Wowza" line was fun, especially because I agreed with it...but, he didn't do much in this episode.

[madhacker]

54 minutes ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Loved the bruce/babs auction scene. 

"Three hundred thousand and......one cent" Damn Bruce was awesome in that scene. You could also tell David was enjoying himself, this was a nice change of pace for him. This is a very smart move because if he keeps it up 10 years from now nobody will suspect him of being The Dark Knight.

 

54 minutes ago, HoodlumSheep said:

•  
• Babs got killer moves now. But  i could have done without her and ra's hooking(?) up

Swear to God she'd better not be Talia's mom. Am I the only one who knew right from the start she'd had a little time in a Pit?

As for Sofia......I'm never going to be able to watch Teen Wolf the same after tonight. Although, now I'm going to expect her to pull a bow and arrow out every time I see her now. Hopefully we'll get to see Sofia and Selena have a few scenes this season since

Spoiler

in the comics Selena is Carmine's bastard daughter.

Edited October 6, 2017 by madhacker

[Pyralis]

I practically slept through the Jim scenes.  And spent too much thought on trying to figure out whether the guy who saved Ra's was using stirrups (I can't help it, it's my pedantry when it comes to tack in historical scenes).

Watching DM go from Bruce's normal serious mien to embracing Alfred's suggestion of "Masks" and then back again with bonus looks at Alfred "am I doing this right?" was delightful to watch.

[Lantern7]

And the insanity continues. Next week, it's basically a lead-in to the slightly-less batshit Arrow at 9.

Wow, Jim's got a potential Embittered Ex in Sophia. Of course she'd come to Gotham. Of course she'd start exploring the possibilities of Jimbo's jock. Why not? Also, Riddler's potential girlfriend gets suckered with a heavy book and killed by Zsasz. I'm surprised this show doesn't get more heat about stuff like that. On the other hand, she was Loony Tunes. "Riddlerette"?!? I'm thinking "Cluemaster" comes next season.

Speaking of Ed . . . interesting that he doesn't have his brain all the way back. There's also the deal about him getting thawed out, with that process being a problem last season. Today? Determined lady with a torch. Why not?!?

I like the Adventures Of Bruce & Alfred. Kinda like the Star-Spangled Kid & Stripsey for the 21th Century. Also like Bruce being an asshole on purpose, as opposed to by accident. I hope David is having fun with the new direction. Alfred, as always, is awesome.

Apparently, when you're immortal, you get attracted to the crazy. What are you thinkin', Ra's?* I'm guessing Barbara's resurrection might have eased her eccentric nature, but she's still twisted as hell.

* According to John Barrowman, it's "Raysh" if you mean respect; "Rahs" if you don't. At least that's how I heard it.

[scarynikki12]

I don’t think Barbara will be Talia’s mom. Talia and Bruce are contemporaries so she should be alive but offscreen. I also don’t think Barbara will be anyone’s mom (if Babs ever gets mentioned I’m expecting her to be Jim’s niece) so the Ra’s affair won’t go any farther than its current state. 

David was a hoot playing Playboy-in-training-Bruce. More of this please! 

Victor was so pleased with himself when he solved the riddle. I’m glad he’s around more for these comedy bits. 

I love the twist that Ed can’t do riddles right now. Watching him get that back should be great. 

Have to admit I never thought they’d bring in Sophia but I’m definitely intrigued. I wonder if

her presence means they’ll make Selina the illegitimate daughter?

[immortalfrieza]

Not a bad episode, but two things in particular drag it down. For one, "Riddlerette" (thanks @Lantern7 for that particular nickname) obviously existed solely as just a cheap plot device to have Nygma thawed out. They should have developed her character for at least a few episodes before killing her off and if they weren't going to do that they could have just used one of the characters that already existed in the show to do the same thing, Ivy comes to mind. Unless a character's sole purpose is to appear for a minute and then go running straight into gunshots there's no excuse for making and developing a character just to kill them off immediately, especially when another character one already has can fill the exact same role that this new character does just as easily.

 

The other is Sophia. From the moment I saw her on the screen I groaned "oh great, another love interest for Gordon" and the show just had to disappoint by going there. First of all, she's either going to end up like Barbara and be hated basically from day one only to become interesting when she goes full on crazy, or she's going to end up like Lee and be well liked to begin with and then devolve into a total bitch we end up hating and cheer when they're eventually gone. The writers have proven they can't write a female character that isn't completely nuts well, they can barely write the male characters that aren't completely nuts well. Secondly, and most important, JIM DOES NOT NEED A LOVE INTEREST!!!! The best moments and episodes for Jim Gordon are the ones that have nothing to do with any love interest whatsoever, why do they insist on shoving these love interests at him that only make both characters that much worse? This isn't the freaking CW, there doesn't need to be relationships everywhere. Just focus on Gordon's crusade to save Gotham for at least a season before you do that writers, Gordon and the writing in general will be better off for it.

Edited October 6, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[Kostgard]

A lot of good stuff happened in this episode, but it felt rushed. I wish they had given some things more time to breathe.

First off, Zsasz is a freakin’ national treasure. I know they just hand him quip-y one-liners, but it’s totally working for me. And he and Oswald together are funny. I wish they would expand on that. I mean, just the shot of the two of them sitting there in the club while Oswald was pouting over Ed being gone - that visual was funny. So was Oswald deciding he needed to make an example of Ed’s stalker, clapping Victor on the shoulder and saying “Have fun, Victor!” followed by Zsasz looking so happy. More of that, please.

Poor Ed can’t handle riddles anymore. But his homicidal instincts are still intact. They really could have expanded on his stalker and carried that forward into at least the next episode. I mean, she went to elementary school with him? Has she been obsessed with him since then or did he catch her fancy after becoming the Riddler? On one of the mannequins she had his Riddler suit, but on the other, she had his old, regular clothes. Like, clothes we haven’t seen him wear since before going to Arkham in season two. When and where did she get them?

I was amused by her fake-out  Cat Woman ears during the ice breaking. Though, Oswald, for someone who so accurately called the GCPD on their lack of security, you’re doing a pretty terrible job of it yourself. Are there no security cameras in that place? No alarm system?

I’m still not loving this version of Barbara. I miss the fun, crazy Babs. And not down with her hooking up with Ra’s. Speaking of - Oswald, did you know that bitch is stealing your look? Ra’s was sporting some hair that is just a messier version of Oswald’s, and Oswald wore a jacket almost exactly like that one last season. The main difference is Ra’s paired it with a sparkly cravat instead of a shirt and tie. 

The introduction of Dickhead Bruce was kinda fun, and DM did a good job of playing it a little too loud and a little too bad. It will be interesting to see if Bruce’s learns to refine his acting skills over the course of the season. 

Crystal Reed has unfortunately been saddled with the role of YET ANOTHER love interest for Jim, but overall I liked her performance. It seemed clear to me that she was up to something, but CR didn’t overplay it and wasn’t twirling her mustache. I suspect she’s playing Jim while she tries to prove herself to her father. Speaking of - they couldn’t just give Falcone something like cancer? Instead he’s just got mysterious terminal TV disease. But I would be impressed to learn Falcone is in on Sofia’s plan and didn’t bother naming his illness because he knows Jim is a dum-dum who wouldn’t think that was weird. 

Not much Harvey,  but I think the production of this episode may have overlapped with the time Donal Logue was dealing with his missing daughter, so that may explain his absence.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Kostgard

[DR14]

This one was very good, I had fairly modest expectations.  More please Gotham.

I was not sure about the whole 'playboy, brat' thing before this episode.

Man that was done well.

[immortalfrieza]

2 hours ago, Kostgard said:

 they couldn’t just give Falcone something like cancer? Instead he’s just got mysterious terminal TV disease.

Usually particularly with a powerful figure like Falcone "I'm dying of some mysterious illness and the doctors can't tell me why" is fiction code for "I'm being poisoned somehow with something the doctors don't think to look for," especially if it's a wasting disease of some kind. If so it's probably by Sophia herself, trying to kill him to inherit his money and what shreds of his criminal empire remain. Not that I expect that the writers would look that deep into things if they just want to kill off Falcone but a guy like Falcone who could shell out for the best doctors in the world if need be having a genuinely mysterious terminal disease that they can't even identify not even to the point of attributing it to a disease it actually isn't stretches the bounds of believably.

[mertensia]

I loved Bruce's "Didn't Barbara Kean die?" comment and Oswald's reply. Also his whole bidding war.

[darkestboy]

Good episode, nice introduction for Sofia but she better not be relegated to Gordon's latest love interest and getting constantly bested by Oswald either. Let her being a force to be reckoned with and a psycho too.

Falcone dying of a mystery ailment, boo but what can you do though?

Barbara and Ras being involved with each other, I did see coming, except for the hook up bit at the end, which seemed even more random than Jim and Sofia. I did like the Ras flashback at the start of the episode.

Selina might want to up her game if she wants to be taken seriously by Barbara. I did like her conversation with Bruce though in this one and the latter adopting his billionaire brat persona as well at the auction.

The Nygma plot was pretty good this week, even if his fangirl was a little annoying. I did like Zsasz's one liners and Oswald's reaction to Ed being on the loose was amusing. Nygma not having his riddles could be fun for a few episodes too, 7/10

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

Falcone dying of a mystery ailment, boo but what can you do though?

Or he is lying to set up the long con.... 

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, darkestboy said:

Let her being a force to be reckoned with and a psycho too.

I agree, in part. I don't want her to be a psycho- I'd like it if she was cunning and calm, heavy-handed and strong when she needs to be but someone who is in control and a master of the long game.

Like Carmine could have been.

I think we have too many reckless, provoked-at-glance madmen and madwomen that we need someone who counteract that.

[Kostgard]

5 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Usually particularly with a powerful figure like Falcone "I'm dying of some mysterious illness and the doctors can't tell me why" is fiction code for "I'm being poisoned somehow with something the doctors don't think to look for," especially if it's a wasting disease of some kind. If so it's probably by Sophia herself, trying to kill him to inherit his money and what shreds of his criminal empire remain. Not that I expect that the writers would look that deep into things if they just want to kill off Falcone but a guy like Falcone who could shell out for the best doctors in the world if need be having a genuinely mysterious terminal disease that they can't even identify not even to the point of attributing it to a disease it actually isn't stretches the bounds of believably.

Interesting point. I think Sofia will be a dark character,  but I didn’t expect “poisoning her father” levels of dark. Might be an interesting twist. Or as pointed out above, may be part of a long con. But is the con only Falcone’s, or are he and Sofia working together?

 

Either way, Jim is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Like, of course Falcone won’t help you, dummy. You killed his son. Gangsters aren’t exactly a forgiving lot. Same rule applies for Mario’s sister who basically just told you her brother was her everything growing up because her dad was absent (and if I’m remembering season one correctly, her mother was dead), so I don’t know why you think she’s safe to make out with. And what, exactly, is Jim promising them in return? I suppose Sofia could find a way to topple Oswald and get her dad’s criminal empire back, but again, what does Jim bring to the table other than the idea of “Hey, why don’t you come back to Gotham and steal your criminal empire back?” And if it works...then what? Will Jim turn a blind eye to their criminal activity? After he’s been grandstanding about being the only one who won’t turn a blind eye to Oswald’s criminal activity, thereby making his moral code essentially, “I’ll tolerate crime from this one because I like the Falcone methods better.” That’s hardly heroic. Jim is dumb.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

Makes me wonder why Sofia couldn't have been a Maroni. That family would have all the incentive they need to steal back Gotham from Penguin.

[Sakura12]

I thought this was a good episode. Barbara getting LP'd should've been an easy guess. She also got some training from Ra's. Didn't expect them to be hooking up though. I don't think she will be Nyssa or Talia's mother since they should be older or closer in age to Bruce. She could be Dusan al Ghul's mother if they want to bring in a character that's never been seen in live action.  I also want the newly sane criminal Barbara (I guess the LP healed her crazy) to take Selina under her wing again like in the first season only know to teach her how to be a better criminal. Maybe Ra's will tell her she needs an heir. Lol

Nygma's brain is still frozen, interesting to see how he does without his intelligence. Penguin is not that great at security if he can't even secure his own club. It also seems like The Sirens club was more successful or at least more busy then his club. 

As for potential storylines they did have Falcone emphasize that Sofia was his only daughter. Now that could for Jim with his itchy trigger finger as in please don't kill her. Or it could mean something else. 

[Kathemy]

13 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Also, Riddler's potential girlfriend gets suckered with a heavy book and killed by Zsasz. I'm surprised this show doesn't get more heat about stuff like that. 

It absolutely can't get any more heat about stuff like that than it already gets on raging SJW tumblr. Everytime the show kills a woman it's sexist. Everytime it kills a black guy it's racist. Everytime a gay feels bad about a love interest it's homophobic.

In other news it seems Gotham has forgotten about the term "build-up." Stuff... yeah... just happens. At least this was more entertaining and I agree, Bratman was to die for.

[paigow]

Executing her in private is not really "making an example of her". For Victor, shooting an unarmed target point blank would not seem "fun" [been there, done that, a lot] Therefore, she may not be dead yet. Or she will get the full Spartacus - crucified at City Hall as a message to Barbara / Tabitha...

[ratgirlagogo]

22 hours ago, Kostgard said:

A lot of good stuff happened in this episode, but it felt rushed. I wish they had given some things more time to breathe.

This is the whole history of the show.  You gotta keep things moving when you have seventy eight gazillion characters to keep balanced in the air.  In a way it's kind of the strength of the show - they just plow through every plotline so fast it doesn't matter if it entirely makes sense. Plus this has maybe the best casting and without a doubt the best art design and cinematography and music soundtrack of any comic book show on broadcast TV.   I'm beginning to accept that in retrospect this show is going to be a lot of fun to watch all the way through, in the future.

LOVE LOVE LOVE playboy Bruce Wayne!

[thuganomics85]

Bruce Wayne: Billionaire Brat was the greatest thing ever.  David Mazouz was having a ball with it!  I so hope they keep finding more ways for him to bust out that persona in public events.  And I'm sure once he gets older, they'll start doing the whole playboy aspect, which I imagine could be just as entertaining.

No surprise, Barbara's mysterious backer is Ra's Al Ghul, and he really, really wants that dagger that Bruce just bought.  Also, he and Barbara are lover.  Safe to say that is quite the age gap, since I'm pretty sure Ra's is over a thousand years old, I think.  Loving Alexander Siddig in this role and is definitely a major improvement compared to how Arrow dropped the ball on that character.

No, Carmine Falcone can't die!  The fact that he claims it is mysterious makes me think it is poison or something to that nature.  But I hope it isn't for good.  John Doman is too awesome to be done with the show permanently.

So, now Sofia Falcone has entered the picture, and is here to mainly be a potential ally/love interest for Jim in his war against Oswald.  Not familiar with Crystal Reed (sounds like she was in Teen Wolf?), but she was pretty good.  And I see she was also rocking the "business jacket, no shirt underneath" look that Barbara wore last episode.  I guess that's the new fashion trend!  Well, when it's television and you look like Erin Richards and Crystal Reed, I guess...

Nygma is now back thanks to an obsessive fan, but thanks to the freezing, he's more psychotic and less intelligent then he use to be.  This could either be good or bad for Oswald.

Selina, I like you and everything, but you had to know Bruce wasn't going to budge with that knife.

I really hope getting so much Zsasz now means he won't suddenly disappear.  He continues to pretty much steal every scene that he's in.

Barely any Bullock and the one scene he did get seems to be mainly introducing this Harper character, which felt way too random.  She has to factor in later on, I think.

Edited October 7, 2017 by thuganomics85

[Simba122504]

Jim doesn't need a love interest every season! It's just as annoying as Jamal on "Empire." Characters can be single. Spoiled Brat/future Playboy Bruce was hilarious.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Simba122504

[Snookums]

Quote

Jim, jimbo, please. No. Just no. You've known sofia for less than a day and you're already kissing? Please stop with these stupid romance plots.

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK. 

James Gordon does not work as a romantic lead. He's too damn dumb, for one thing, and for another the nature of his character doesn't lend itself to squishyness or cooing, or even sex, really. Not that he's sexless but his dragged-here-there-everywhere-for-motivation character is way too self-focused to make it believable that he would even really notice romantic partners exist, much less make room in his bizarro world life for them. The closest thing to a romantic partner that he has is Harvey. 

And Sophia is A) too young and B) so clearly manipulative that the whole thing just makes Jim look even stupider than usual. Never mind the idea of going to Creepy-Ass Sky Florida to find the insanely dangerous gangster whose son you shot in the first place, the fact that he just willingly trots after/smooches on Sophia, who might as well have a tattoo reading "I'M POISONING MY DAD AND BY THE BY YOU KILLED MY BROTHER"  in between her bared boobs, makes you wonder if the citizenry of Gotham blew up the train tracks/airport/highway or whatever means of egress he used. He's SO STUPID! It's hard to root for even the funniest and most florid villains when your "good guy" is a basically an ambulatory box of hair.

(Also, why is this the first time anybody's mentioned Sophia anyway? Wouldn't she have come to her own brother's wedding? Wouldn't he  or Carmine have at least acknowledged her existence to Lee at some point?)

Moving on...

Oswald's awakening to his crazed admirer was gold; the whole "okay, you know you're in Gotham when getting thawed out of a deep freeze isn't the weirdest low point of your day" expressions on his face were terrific. But why kill her? (although A) my husband speculated she may become Professor Pig and B) I don't believe anybody's dead in Gotham unless I attended the cremation and scattered the ashes across all seven continents afterwards.) 

Babs and Ras make sense to me; two sexy people finding each other sexy? And both of them are deeply messed up? In Gotham that's the love story of the year. 

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, Snookums said:

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK. 

James Gordon does not work as a romantic lead. He's too damn dumb, for one thing, and for another the nature of his character doesn't lend itself to squishyness or cooing, or even sex, really. Not that he's sexless but his dragged-here-there-everywhere-for-motivation character is way too self-focused to make it believable that he would even really notice romantic partners exist, much less make room in his bizarro world life for them. The closest thing to a romantic partner that he has is Harvey. 

And Sophia is A) too young and B) so clearly manipulative that the whole thing just makes Jim look even stupider than usual. Never mind the idea of going to Creepy-Ass Sky Florida to find the insanely dangerous gangster whose son you shot in the first place, the fact that he just willingly trots after/smooches on Sophia, who might as well have a tattoo reading "I'M POISONING MY DAD AND BY THE BY YOU KILLED MY BROTHER"  in between her bared boobs, makes you wonder if the citizenry of Gotham blew up the train tracks/airport/highway or whatever means of egress he used. He's SO STUPID! It's hard to root for even the funniest and most florid villains when your "good guy" is a basically an ambulatory box of hair.

(Also, why is this the first time anybody's mentioned Sophia anyway? Wouldn't she have come to her own brother's wedding? Wouldn't he  or Carmine have at least acknowledged her existence to Lee at some point?)

Moving on...

 

I don’t mind Jim having a love life. In fact, I really liked him with Valerie Vale at the beginning of last season. But I liked them because they were just boning each other and having fun. There wasn’t any drama until damn Mad Hatter had to loop in Lee.  But I also liked him with Lee when they first started dating because she was game for a lot of the Gotham craziness and again, they were having fun. But then she got pregnant (and I will forever love Oswald for the massive eye roll he delivered in response to the pregnancy news. That’s the moment he became my spirit animal on this show). And the drama followed, and it has been nothing but an unentertaining slog that ruined Lee’s character. I used to like her, now I’m dreading her return. This pairing doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies despite the show positioning them as each other’s one great love, I can’t find any reason to root for them. Jim is allegedly the hero of this show and I can’t be bothered to root for him in a relationship because I know will be a drag. I’d rather root for the two effed up teenagers or the two dudes who keep trying to kill each other to find happiness, because they are at least entertaining (more on Sofia in a moment).

 

And yeah, Jim is super-dumb. That doesn’t bother me in his relationships (mostly. Again, more on Sofia in a moment). It bothers me because he is presented as the hero of the show. The moral center, the one we are supposed to cheer for. But he is absolutely none of these things. He is just as corrupt as the villains. I get that Gotham is a place that corrupts people,  but Jim almost never tries to take the non-corrupt path. When he does try the high road, he never stays on it for long. I mean, we’ve only had three episodes so far this season and Jim has already TWICE turned to criminals to take Oswald down (and we’re not even counting the numerous times Jim ran to Oswald for help, and then dicked him over). In poorly thought-out plans. The first one only succeeded because Ivy chose the right moment to lash out at Oswald. Jim was just damn lucky. He might not be so lucky this second time around.

None of this would be so bad if the show acknowledged that Jim is an idiot. They kinda did it once at the end of last season when Barbara told him to maybe not stand in the middle of the GCPD and loudly growl your plans into the phone if you don’t want everyone to know about them, and then the best part - after she said that, everyone else (Harvey, Ed, Oswald) turned and looked at Jim with a “You moron” expression on their faces. That was fun! But no - we’re constantly told that Jim is the hero and the Boy Scout who will save us all. I found Jim far less annoying when he was a bounty hunter because during that period the show stopped telling us he was the perfect hero.

Now, I get that Jim can’t be the perfect hero. Because if Jim Gordon were actually able to clean up Gotham, we wouldn’t need Batman. But it would be better if he were an honorable guy who was constantly tripped up by the red tape thrown up by the corrupt city (again, why we need a Batman who doesn’t have to follow the rules). But instead they show us he’s totally corrupt too and always runs to pair up with a criminal while complaining about other criminals in some sort of incredibly short-sighted plan. He’s a hypocrite, not a hero.

And I’m torn on Sofia because while I think the actress is doing a good job and I’m curious to see how she wrecks havoc in Gotham, she’s gotta do it as part of one of Jim’s dumb plans and she has to be a love interest for him. It’s the two worst things about Jim on this show wrapped into one. I wish she had come to Gotham on her own to reclaim it for her family.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Kostgard

[Kathemy]

This "too old" thing? Crystal Reed is 32, Ben is 39.

Shocking! 

[DR14]

Erin Richards is 31 and that's who Jim started out paired with.

I think the issue with Jim's love interests is that they immediately become love interests and aren't allowed to develop as individual characters first, and aren't given anything else to do until they break from him.

The pairings that are well received are among characters who have been individually developed, and when they are paired, it enhances them as characters.

I really hope Sofia is playing Jim here.

[HoodlumSheep]

10 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I don’t mind Jim having a love life. In fact, I really liked him with Valerie Vale at the beginning of last season. But I liked them because they were just boning each other and having fun. There wasn’t any drama until damn Mad Hatter had to loop in Lee.  But I also liked him with Lee when they first started dating because she was game for a lot of the Gotham craziness and again, they were having fun. But then she got pregnant (and I will forever love Oswald for the massive eye roll he delivered in response to the pregnancy news. That’s the moment he became my spirit animal on this show). And the drama followed, and it has been nothing but an unentertaining slog that ruined Lee’s character. I used to like her, now I’m dreading her return. This pairing doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies despite the show positioning them as each other’s one great love, I can’t find any reason to root for them. Jim is allegedly the hero of this show and I can’t be bothered to root for him in a relationship because I know will be a drag. I’d rather root for the two effed up teenagers or the two dudes who keep trying to kill each other to find happiness, because they are at least entertaining (more on Sofia in a moment).

The reason why i don't want a jim romance on this show anymore is this. Jim and lee started out so cute and then it just became relationship drama. Then him and val had a decent flirty thing going on and then that turned into drama crap. I'm not saying to completely remove drama from a relationship, but yeesh, it's been completely overkill with jim and lee. Jim's boyscout character has been destroyed, lee's character's been destroyed and for some reason they keep trying to push these two destroyed characters together. It's too late, though, the damage has been done. Didn't help that jim killed her fiancé. That's not something they can just gloss over (but they seem to be trying, kind of).

At this point i would be far happier and be a-okay with tying up jim's romance storyline with him bumping into a random lady while getting his morning coffee, flirting a bit and hinting that they're gonna see each other and maybe start something. Preferrably in the very last episode. Screw dc comics lore. It'd be good enough for me. I'd be satisfied with that conclusion.

The show would be much better off just focusing on the jim/harvey bromance and buddy antics and i can't understand why the showrunners or writers can't see that. I wish they'd work on the jim/harvey stuff too because at this point harvey is too good for jim. Harvey always has jim's back but we never see jim having harvey's back (probably because harvey never gets his own storyline or focus anymore--look where the mysterious harvey/fish backstory went...nowhere.).

On a different note; whenever i think gotham has a really good paced episode everyone else always thinks its rushed :(. This episode didn't contain any scenes that needed to breathe or last longer for extra drama, so i thought they did a good job with keeping things moving. Was the problem for you guys moreso all the plotlines they were juggling?  I thought it worked. I'm curious to know which episodes y'all think are well-paced.

Edited October 7, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Snookums]

Quote

This "too old" thing? Crystal Reed is 32, Ben is 39.

 

Fair enough, but the show says Sophia is 23 (She went to Florida at 13 and has been plotting for 10 years.) So, gross.

But they could mean she's been plotting since, like, her 18th birthday or something, which would make it not gross. 

But leaving aside the age thing, Jim Gordon is still a dumb-dumb bunny for getting involved with her at all.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Snookums said:

Jim Gordon is still a dumb-dumb bunny for getting involved with her at all.

Jim Gordon Dating Checklist:

• Impressive cleavage
• No obvious signs of insanity
• Initiates making out

Would venture that he is not an outlier....

Edited October 7, 2017 by paigow

[paigow]

If Batgirl is going to be the daughter of Commissioner Gordon, then he needs as many love interest arcs as possible. She should be about 20 years younger than Batman... TV!Bruce is 16-18 years old now- so there is a loudly ticking biological clock somewhere...

[SnarkyTart]

I liked Nygma faking that his body didn't work yet so that he could spring upright to smash Myrtle in the face and escape.  I was starting to worry that the obsessed stalker-fan, with her "celebrity" object being a bedridden invalid, was going to play out similarly to Stephen King's "Misery".   It was a relief when the show didn't go there.  It was effective character development to show that the Riddler's ego isn't vulnerable to female adoration, and that he has zero gratitude for someone who saved his life and nursed him back to wellness.  However, he made a mistake by not dealing a fatal blow to Myrtle.  That level of crazy stalker is at its most dangerous when rejected.  I would say Nygma's lucky Zsasz took care of that detail, but in Gotham nobody's ever really dead, especially when the deed takes place off-camera.  Myrtle might well come back to make Nygma pay for his rejection and betrayal. 

Absolutely love love love all the screen time for Alfred, my favorite character (and actor) on this series.  Every scene is better with Alfred in it, especially baby Bruce's scenes.  Speaking of which, when Mazouz gave interviews a couple season's ago saying the story arc was going to be about turning Bruce into a playboy, I cringed.  The word "playboy" has a specific meaning to me and Mazouz is simply too young for it without it being creepy.  But, having him develop the Billionaire Brat persona is wonderful.  I enjoyed it a lot!   There was one scene where Baby Batman was shouting (can't remember when) and Mazouz's voice was cracking.  Please, show, let Mazouz finish puberty before trying to make me believe no one would realize this masked avenger is an adolescent.    Or at least make sure he remains speaking softly in his low whispery voice when he's in his costume. 

Overall, this was one of my favorite episodes in a while.  Bruce Wayne becoming Batman and developing both his superhero skills and his billionaire persona are just the direction the show needed at this time, at least for me.  More of that, less of Jim Gordon and his revolving door of unbelievable love interests.  And please bring Carmine Falcone back to Gotham. 

[Kathemy]

6 hours ago, Snookums said:

 

Fair enough, but the show says Sophia is 23 (She went to Florida at 13 and has been plotting for 10 years.) So, gross.

How old is Jim?

And that aside, 23 and 39 isn't gross either. They are grown-up people. Period. It wouldn't matter if Jim were 65.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Kathemy said:

How old is Jim?

And that aside, 23 and 39 isn't gross either. They are grown-up people. Period. It wouldn't matter if Jim were 65.

The uncrossable line is Selina + Jim = Batgirl.... It might be borderline legal but also wrong in every other way... 

[Kathemy]

<Doux Reviews> <They Who Hide Behind Masks>

[tennisgurl]

The emergence of Bratty Baby Batman! That was so great, and you could tell David was having a blast playing the bratty spoiled rich kid. I can see how this will eventually lead to his Millionaire Playboy persona, and how NO ONE will be able to put together that this guy is Batman. I mean, I wouldn't look at this version of Bruce and think Caped Crusader or Dark Knight. 

Really good episode, especially with Falcone seemingly back in play. His daughter seems interesting, but I dread her being a possible romantic foil for Jim. I dont think Jim having a love interest is awful in and of itself, but...it usually has been. I really liked Lee when she was smart and fun and jumped right into the Gotham craziness, and had a dark side, but was still a good person. What they did to her later was just a mess, and took out all the fun (why and many people liked them in the first place) and only left the drama. They just dont know how to write Jim in a romance anymore. Other than his bromance with his one true love Harvey of course. 

Barbara is a ton of fun, and I like her and Ras and their weird thing going on. I also liked getting some of his backstory, that was pretty cool. Generally enjoying the Ras plot, especially because this Ras is SO much better than Arrows version, who just seemed like someone dad dressing up for Halloween with his legion of Guys Who Stand Around Not Assassinating  Anyone. The best part of the League by this point is his daughter Nyssa, who is the best. 

Also back in the mix is Nygma, who has seemingly ended up with brain damage or something. I think the only people in Gotham who have more relationship drama than Jim and Lee are Penguin and Riddler. 

The plot lines in this show have issues, but oh my GOD the look is amazing. Its the best looking and most atmospheric of all the comic book shows on TV, which works perfectly for a Batman show. Its Gothic styling and soundtrack are right up there with any of the Batman adaptation. Even the movies. 

[paigow]

This Bruce will definitely grow up to be the asshole that invites the Bolshoi company onto his yacht to spite Harvey Dent & Rachel....Although TV!Dent is already too old....  

[Kathemy]

56 minutes ago, paigow said:

This Bruce will definitely grow up to be the asshole that invites the Bolshoi company onto his yacht to spite Harvey Dent & Rachel....Although TV!Dent is already too old....  

This Bruce Wayne will rule the world. :)

Seriously though, David's pretty magical.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Seriously though, David's pretty magical.

He should have his own show.

...oh wait...

Gotham producers, are you listening?

[Perfect Xero]

21 hours ago, paigow said:

The uncrossable line is Selina + Jim = Batgirl.... It might be borderline legal but also wrong in every other way... 

When they magically aged Ivy up I was cringing at the possibility that they were doing it to set up Ivy seducing Jim or Bullock, but thankfully they haven't seemed interested in going down that path.

[Delphi]

On 10/7/2017 at 6:52 PM, paigow said:

If Batgirl is going to be the daughter of Commissioner Gordon, then he needs as many love interest arcs as possible. She should be about 20 years younger than Batman... TV!Bruce is 16-18 years old now- so there is a loudly ticking biological clock somewhere...

Barbara could always be his adopted daughter, which honestly I have always preferred. 

[jhlipton]

On 10/6/2017 at 6:30 AM, Danielg342 said:

I agree, in part. I don't want her to be a psycho- I'd like it if she was cunning and calm, heavy-handed and strong when she needs to be but someone who is in control and a master of the long game.

Definite this.  Too many psychos, especially the women.

On 10/6/2017 at 9:39 AM, paigow said:

Executing her in private is not really "making an example of her". For Victor, shooting an unarmed target point blank would not seem "fun" [been there, done that, a lot] Therefore, she may not be dead yet. Or she will get the full Spartacus - crucified at City Hall as a message to Barbara / Tabitha...

Victor is, more than anything, a sadist.  Someone like that is not going to just shoot someone dead with just one shot.  He is going to, as Penguin said, "Have fun", all the more since she's supposed to a "lesson".  It does not make any sense for that to be a killing shot.

[Last Time Lord]

Billionaire Brat Bruce Wayne is my everything. He was straight up being the asshole contestant on The Price Is Right  it was glorious  

I love the proto Batman stuff. It’s like watching a toddler’s first few attempts at walking. It’s so adorable. 

Its amazing how this show has managed to get a much better use of Alexander Siddig than Game Of Thrones did. I’m liking his Ra’s. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Billionaire Brat Bruce totally made this episode for me! I love that after three full seasons of angst, DM was allowed to look like he was having fun. I also liked that he told Alfred that it was actually fun to behave like a brat in public. That kid definitely needs any stress reliever possible.

Ryan Atwood managed to take a trip to the beach without getting punched or punching someone else! Why that horrible yellow filter though? Like it would be too unbelievable for the sky to be blue?

On 10/6/2017 at 9:55 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I see she was also rocking the "business jacket, no shirt underneath" look that Barbara wore last episode.  I guess that's the new fashion trend!  Well, when it's television and you look like Erin Richards and Crystal Reed, I guess...

In the 90s, my friends and I used to refer to that as the Victoria's Secret business casual attire because every catalog featured the models wearing short skirts with blazers and nothing underneath.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Rather love the Zsaz/Penguin dynamic, full of great little moments such as Victor's pride at solving the riddle (who would put that in a children's book?), check out Oswald's little look to him at that point. 

2. Did they have to kill off the Riddlerette? (clever how they introduced her, you think it's Selina or Tabitha and then maybe the new Ivy at first). Love Ed's answer of a "Zebra with a gaping hole in it', shows how his mind works.

3. So, Barbara and Raz, she sure can pick them, nicely defies expectations that he's not mad with her but actually very proud. But did we have to have the 'when I bathed you in the Lazarus pit' exposition line?  

4. No Tabitha this week and very little Harvey, find it a little painful to see Bruce and Selina fall out

5. Very Miami Vice feel (lame Colin Farrell movie version) to Jim and Sophia who is very clearly poisoning her dad, Mario was obviously the very best of this screwed up family. 

So pretty much a holding ep, not that great although we'll see how intellectually challenged Ed copes, his brainpower always his defining characteristic. 

[John Potts]

So over the course of the show, Gordon has moved from Babs to Boobs... (can't say I blame him, if I'm honest).

On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:35 PM, DR14 said:

I really hope Sofia is playing Jim here.

I hope so too - she is the daughter of a crime Lord, after all. And her outfits are mighty distracting.

How long would it take to cut Ed out of that block of ice with a welding torch!? OK, I guess I shouldn't look to this show for realism.

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:18 AM, jhlipton said:

Victor is, more than anything, a sadist.  Someone like that is not going to just shoot someone dead with just one shot.  He is going to, as Penguin said, "Have fun", all the more since she's supposed to a "lesson".  It does not make any sense for that to be a killing shot.

That was my thought too. C'mon Victor, be inventive! I get that Standards & Practices won't allow them to SHOW anything, but they could have faded to black with Victor pulling a knife and then showing somebody throwing up on finding (bits of) the body (which we don't see).

On ‎06‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:16 AM, SimoneS said:

Bruce is coming along nicely developing his alter ego, spoilt Bruce Wayne.

Loved Alfred's talk of masks (even only a virtual one). Always wanted to do that "$300,000... and 1 cent" thing - not that I've ever been to an auction (or have $300,000 to throw around). And Bruce was listening because he then pointed out that if he just bid on the knife it would look mighty suspicious. But Selina, I know Bruce is a billionaire (and sweet on you), but handing over a $2m dagger is a bit more than "Doing you a solid"!

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, John Potts said:

Always wanted to do that "$300,000... and 1 cent" thing - not that I've ever been to an auction (or have $300,000 to throw around).

I think most high-end auctions have a minimum raise just to curtail that nonsense.