S02.E06: Scientology and Celebrity: The Betrayal of Paul Haggis

[TaraS1]

I was hoping Paul would tell the story again about reading the OTIII/Xenu materials for the first time, and how it was so ridiculous that he thought they were testing him.  If he believed it, it meant he was insane lol.

[iMonrey]

Ooh, this one was good. It's one thing to have random "civilians" tell us their stories - as compelling as they are, it's easy for a lot of people to dismiss them. But you get a two-time Oscar winning writer and director like Paul Haggis telling the same story it's a lot harder to ignore. I've got to believe the Co$ is sweating bullets right about now. The show really got down and dirty parading all those celebrity clips, basically calling them out in a way they haven't until now. I loved Leah saying "that was a pussy answer."

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I cannot wait for Katie Holmes to write a book.  Gimme the dirt, honey.

I've heard she signed some kind of non-disclosure agreement when she married Tom. I don't know if that's true but I believe it's possible she's legally compelled to keep her mouth shut about certain things. I also think she's still trying to save her career which really hasn't gone anywhere. She might thing spilling dirty laundry about her marriage and about Scientology won't help her image or acting opportunities.

[greekmom]

14 hours ago, bosawks said:

Good lord that Martin Luther King Jr. story was just, wow....

I'm shocked the clams didn't compare Miscgivage to the Pope, Ghandi, Mother Teresa or Jesus.

14 hours ago, jodie said:

I love how Leah called out the celebrities and reporters on their shit. What a great response calling them p***ssy.

I still don't understand why Tom Cruise is so praised. Does misc she have a crush on him?

I don't understand how Tom is an A list celeb above John Travolta. I thought John had more star power than Tom.

14 hours ago, veronicamers said:

I was so glad they showed that Prepon video which is just the most contrived nonsense ever. Girl, go home with that. 

That woman grates on my nerves from the time when she did a movie about Karla Homokla.   Prepon doesn't know how to make good choices in life.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, greekmom said:

 

I don't understand how Tom is an A list celeb above John Travolta. I thought John had more star power than Tom..

Has John had a hit since Pulp Fiction?  (Other than the OJ Simpson tv series, but he was more of a supporting character on that.)  I think Grease, Saturday Night Fever, and Pulp Fiction are really his big hits. Other than that, he has a variety of smaller parts.  Where as Tom Cruise had Risky Business, Jerry Maguire, A Few Good Men, the first few Mission Impossible, Top Gun, Days of Thunder, and Minority Report that I think were all big box office hits.

[Lady Iris]

1 hour ago, WInterfalls said:

OK Mike wasn't around for his daughter how does that make it ok to throw him in the hole for two years? 

Mike was in the hole for 2 years? I must've missed that, my God. I wonder how long after that it took him to leave the "church"

2 hours ago, cpcathy said:

Does anyone remember Nathan Thurm, Martin Short's greasy lawyer character from Saturday Night Live? All these Scientologists and their outright denials of stuff on TV remind me of Nathan Thurm saying, "I never said that, why is he saying that? I never said that!" 

Lol, even in this dark conversation any Martin Short/Nathan Thurm reference needs to be acknowledged. This is so true.

[WInterfalls]

25 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Mike was in the hole for 2 years? I must've missed that, my God. I wonder how long after that it took him to leave the "church"

Yes he was in for 2 years. He was pulled from the hole to try and stop a documentary from being released in England. When it became clear he wasn't going to be able to stop it he bolted.  So basically he left the hole and was outta there.  

[Lady Iris]

Just now, WInterfalls said:

Yes he was in for 2 years. He was pulled from the hole to try and stop a documentary from being released in England. When it became clear he wasn't going to be able to stop it he bolted.  So basically he left the hole and was outta there.  

Damn! I definitely missed that. Glad he saw the light and got out.

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

She might thing spilling dirty laundry about her marriage and about Scientology won't help her image or acting opportunities.

I actually think it may help her career, quite honestly.

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

I don't understand how Tom is an A list celeb above John Travolta. I thought John had more star power than Tom.

That's interesting, to me, that anyone would think that.  Tom Cruise has been a bigger star than Travolta for a very long time.  I don't think Travolta has really been relevant for like 10-15 years.  Besides the recent OJ Simpson show, the most recent role I can identify on IMDB that had any sort of "buzz" was Hairspray in 2007.  I think TC's star is finally dimming, though, and I am SOOOOOOO happy!

[dwarmed]

29 minutes ago, WInterfalls said:

So basically he left the hole and was outta there.  

Actually, since he failed to block the documentary, he was told he was being banished to a post in Australia and would never see his family again. I assume his family was the only thing keeping him in, so he had nothing left to lose at that point. 

[Lady Iris]

41 minutes ago, dwarmed said:

Actually, since he failed to block the documentary, he was told he was being banished to a post in Australia and would never see his family again. I assume his family was the only thing keeping him in, so he had nothing left to lose at that point. 

Considering all the dirty work they made him do for years it just goes to show, they don't give a crap about anything except their bottom line, protecting the church for sanctity of the almighty dollar.

[Ina123]

Anyone notice that Greta Van Sustren was in the celebrity montage at the end. She and her husband both are CO$.

[HunterHunted]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

I don't understand how Tom is an A list celeb above John Travolta. I thought John had more star power than Tom.

4 hours ago, deaja said:

Has John had a hit since Pulp Fiction?  (Other than the OJ Simpson tv series, but he was more of a supporting character on that.)  I think Grease, Saturday Night Fever, and Pulp Fiction are really his big hits. Other than that, he has a variety of smaller parts.  Where as Tom Cruise had Risky Business, Jerry Maguire, A Few Good Men, the first few Mission Impossible, Top Gun, Days of Thunder, and Minority Report that I think were all big box office hits.

 

3 hours ago, Whimsy said:

That's interesting, to me, that anyone would think that.  Tom Cruise has been a bigger star than Travolta for a very long time.  I don't think Travolta has really been relevant for like 10-15 years.  Besides the recent OJ Simpson show, the most recent role I can identify on IMDB that had any sort of "buzz" was Hairspray in 2007.  I think TC's star is finally dimming, though, and I am SOOOOOOO happy!

 

I don't think Travolta has had a film released in a movie theater since Savages in 2012 and that bombed. Whereas, Tom Cruise is still doing well. Not as well as he used to, but his movies are still making money. As long as the budget for his Mission Impossible films is under $200M, then they absolutely clean up. Jack Reacher and Edge of Tomorrow made just enough money to support sequels. The most notable thing Travolta has done recently was American Crime Story: The People vs OJ Simpson. It was an ensemble thing, but Travolta was first criticized and then lightly praised for his performance . But he certainly wasn't a stand out. Courtney Vance, Sterling Brown, and Sarah Paulson had star turns. All of whom won Emmys. Travolta is hovering on the precipice of has been. 

I find it funny that the Co$ is so quick to point out how "unsuccessful" Paul Haggis has been because it's not like their adherents are super successful. Travolta's career is in freefall. Kirstie Alley is a big old "who?" Jenna Elfman is a never was. Giovanni Ribisi, Elizabeth Moss, James Barbour, Laura Prepon, Beck, and Nancy Cartwright have decent careers, but no one else who isn't also Tom Cruise does. This is sort of a non argument that the Co$ should stop because as a faith, they're not killing it.

Quote

That woman grates on my nerves from the time when she did a movie about Karla Homokla.   Prepon doesn't know how to make good choices in life.

Laura Prepon is quite lucky that she and the Alex Vause character share the same smug because Prepon is not a great actress. She's better than on That 70s Show where she was terrible.

Edited September 20, 2017 by HunterHunted

[WInterfalls]

1 hour ago, dwarmed said:

Actually, since he failed to block the documentary, he was told he was being banished to a post in Australia and would never see his family again. I assume his family was the only thing keeping him in, so he had nothing left to lose at that point. 

Well yes I was simplifying a bit, but he did make a run for it in England.  He never went back to Gold base or wherever he was.  

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, absnow54 said:

I found it really interesting when Tommy Davis and company put together a presentation that would prove all of his worries false, and instead of addressing any of his issues, they had just assembled a smear campaign of all the people they'd assumed he'd talked to. It was a phenomenal disconnect between Paul worrying about what was going on in the church, and them panicking over who to point their finger at.

That was insane. And Haggis just answers that he hadn't talked to any of those people. It never occurred to them that Paul wanted to quit all on his own, no it had to be other people talked to him. Bad people had talked to him and they were all ready with a smear campaign. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, WInterfalls said:

Yes he was in for 2 years. He was pulled from the hole to try and stop a documentary from being released in England. When it became clear he wasn't going to be able to stop it he bolted.  So basically he left the hole and was outta there.  

That was just so weird to watch. He was clearly disheveled and didn't look well as he desperately tried to defend Scientology. That there was no hole after he clearly was just pulled out if it. 

[CaughtOnTape]

21 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That was insane. And Haggis just answers that he hadn't talked to any of those people. It never occurred to them that Paul wanted to quit all on his own, no it had to be other people talked to him. Bad people had talked to him and they were all ready with a smear campaign. 

To be honest, this alone should tell people something about the church.  They're so insistent that people leave based on the ideas others put into their heads...which lends itself to the church knowing full well that it's followers aren't strong enough to resist such temptation -- because they've played on that aspect of their followers themselves.  

I mean, Haggis seemed fairly firm in his ability to think for himself.  The fact that he was scared his wife wouldn't leave with him proves how fearful they make people for doing just that.  I would surmise that part of the reason he got so emotional when she said she would leave with him it was because he'd thought so little of her to think she wouldn't have.  His words right after that were to assure both Rinder and Leah that she'd always been a woman who thought for herself.

This church preys on people who can't think for themselves.  And celebrities are probably among the most susceptible to this being that they can't make a move without wondering what other people think about it.  Cruise especially seems quite concerned with his public image as he has virtually disappeared from the public eye since his divorce unless he's doing a movie.  And even the interviews he gives don't have a thing to do with his personal life.  It's all about his work.  I would venture a guess that the fact that his movies aren't doing as well as they have in the past is a big pill for him to swallow.

[bethster2000]

17 hours ago, dwarmed said:

Maybe they can get an hour of sleep.

This would be priceless (I did laugh out loud) if there wasn't so much truth to it.

[Lugal]

Another great episode.  Leah just drops the gauntlet in front of everyone who ever said they "never heard of any abuses" or they don't listen to "bigots."

After hearing the CO$'s denials of any problems with homosexuality despite Hubbard's own policies.  After that I said, it's like they don't know how books work, ironic since they have to buy so many of them.  There is a great irony here: whenever a famous celeb comes out as gay, the reaction (outside of a few religious nutjobs, homophobes and trolls) is usually something along the lines of "good for him/her."  Whenever a famous celeb is outed as a Scientologist (not something they readily admit to these days) the reaction is often more along the lines of "Aww, damn, I liked him/her before."

 

20 hours ago, jodie said:

I still don't understand why Tom Cruise is so praised. Does misc she have a crush on him?

Because Tom Cruise's movies bring in a lot of money.  I heard somewhere that Tom is the major source of funding for the CO$, and he almost never turns down a role.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Quote

 

I don't understand how Tom is an A list celeb above John Travolta. I thought John had more star power than Tom.

So did John Travolta not read the part in the Co$ screed about gays being less than primordial ooze? Apparently he'll do anything to deny his sexual tendencies to himself, including embracing the crap that Scientology spews. Incredible self-loathing. 

Katie Holmes may never write a tell-all and even though she isn't a great actress (although I did love her in Dawson's Creek.....what was that? Like a thousand years ago?), she was smart enough to keep Suri safe from those monster cabbages.

Paul Haggis is such a credible witness. I didn't really know how accomplished he is until last night's episode.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

So did John Travolta not read the part in the Co$ screed about gays being less than primordial ooze? Apparently he'll do anything to deny his sexual tendencies to himself, including embracing the crap that Scientology spews. Incredible self-loathing. 

This isn't meant as an excuse, but Travolta joined the Co$ when lots of organizations and people were very homophobic. He's of an age where lots of gay men had a lot of internalized self-loathing. I can see how if you are having a gay attraction, the Co$ saying that you feel this way because some other messed up thing in your life might be appealing. Elton John didn't feel comfortable admitting that he was gay until 1988.

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Katie Holmes may never write a tell-all and even though she isn't a great actress (although I did love her in Dawson's Creek.....what was that? Like a thousand years ago?), she was smart enough to keep Suri safe from those monster cabbages.

I don't think she'll write a book ever. Her primary concern was getting her kid away from these loons. Writing a tell all sort of tacitly invites them back into her and Suri's lives. It's probably best cut them out like cancer.

Quote

Paul Haggis is such a credible witness. I didn't really know how accomplished he is until last night's episode.

He also created Walker Texas Ranger, wrote Million Dollar Baby, Flags of Our Fathers, and Letters from Iwo Jima, and wrote the Daniel Craig era Bond films Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. It's ridiculous how they are trying to downplay his success like it hasn't been memorialized in many places and many times over. Except for Cruise, there are precious few Scientologists in the entertainment industry that were nearly as successful as Haggis. He was a very credible witness and huge loss for the Co$.

[italianguy626]

Re: the MLK comment - I'm surprised I didn't wake my wife up in the next room with my shout of "WHAT!?"

Been following this cuckoo cult since the alt.scientology usenet group and frequently read the Operation Clambake website - which doesn't seem to be updated anymore and the forums get light traffic - and that comment by far is the nuttiest thing I've heard. Wouldn't be surprised if Miss Cabbage actually thinks he is the savior, what with Scientology supposedly the salvation of all human kind.

[ketose]

I was originally a fan of Paul Haggis' work because of the show "Due South," which wasn't a huge success, but did end up with 3 seasons.

 

7 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Mike was in the hole for 2 years? I must've missed that, my God. I wonder how long after that it took him to leave the "church"

Lol, even in this dark conversation any Martin Short/Nathan Thurm reference needs to be acknowledged. This is so true.

Mike was in the Hole so long, he was getting his mail there. CO$ was addressing it to the Hole while they denied it exists.

[HZAnita]

Great episode.  My heart really broke for Paul Haggis when he started talking about his sister.  How awful it must be to never get the chance to reconcile.  I'm sure Mike is worried about that happening with his own kids.  As to Tommy Davis (Anne Archer's little boy), I thought this was pretty funny --> http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/mariah-carey-blames-scientology-boss-breakup-article-1.2852640

[KHenry14]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

This isn't meant as an excuse, but Travolta joined the Co$ when lots of organizations and people were very homophobic. He's of an age where lots of gay men had a lot of internalized self-loathing. I can see how if you are having a gay attraction, the Co$ saying that you feel this way because some other messed up thing in your life might be appealing. Elton John didn't feel comfortable admitting that he was gay until 1988.

 

 I read a rumor that a few years ago Travolta considered leaving CO$ but they blackmailed him with info about him being gay so he gave in and meekly came back. Have no idea if its true, but it makes sense

[RedheadZombie]

10 hours ago, WInterfalls said:

Nicole and Katie got out and that's something at least.  I don't blame Katie for leaving with just Suri; it's more than Nicole managed.  I don't think she could have done anything for Connor and Bella if even their own mother couldn't, and they were almost adults at that point anyway.  There is no telling what sort of relationship they had.  I wouldn't call Katie one of the heroes of the ex-Scientology movement, but I don't think she's a villain either. 

I can and do expect more from Katie.  She's really disappointed me.  Katie got out with her child because she was front and center, and even participated in the alienation of Nicole's kids.  It is no coincidence that Nicole gave an interview speaking of the pain she feels that her kids call her "Nicole", and Katie quickly gives an interview stating Nicole's kids call her "mom".  Total bitch move, and done to show the world that Katie is the superior parent, and Nicole is a massive loser who cannot hold on to her own kids.  With the unspoken suggestion that Nicole sees her adopted children as inferior.

There are normal, everyday people risking themselves to expose the evils of Scientology.  They are not millionaires, like Katie.  They don't necessarily have ironclad contracts protecting their children, like Katie.  I really don't care if Katie loses some money by speaking out.  She is independently wealthy, and young and capable of making millions more.  If she spoke out, and Cruise punished her, that would be one of the biggest steps in crumbling Scientology.  Katie holds that in the palm of her hand, and does nothing with it.  I don't respect her.  Others do and that's fine.

Katie could even continue to be a coward and let people around her leak anonymously.  There are a large number of people in Katie's life who know the truth, and they're only holding back out of respect for Katie's wishes, IMO.  I will not apologize for having these feelings.  I just won't.  We're watching a show in which people have lost everything for Scientology, and continue to risk everything.  It's hard to deny that Katie has given up nothing.  And she is the most protected out of all the people we have seen.  She's not staying silent to protect her child - it's clear Tom doesn't want Suri, and/or the agreement keeps him from her.  She's not staying silent to protect her two other "children" - she clearly has no interest in them.  She's apparently staying silent to protect her multi-millions.  I refuse to make excuses for her.  This is just my honest opinion.  But Katie has always been this way, I don't know why I expected more of her. 

[HunterHunted]

27 minutes ago, KHenry14 said:

 I read a rumor that a few years ago Travolta considered leaving CO$ but they blackmailed him with info about him being gay so he gave in and meekly came back. Have no idea if its true, but it makes sense

I had heard that he had considered leaving after his son died, but suddenly 18 months later Kelly Preston, who is never leaving, is having another baby. Leah has said that she doesn't think Travolta will ever leave in part because they got to him so early that he attributes every bit of success, professional and personal, to the Co$.

[ParadoxLost]

44 minutes ago, KHenry14 said:

 I read a rumor that a few years ago Travolta considered leaving CO$ but they blackmailed him with info about him being gay so he gave in and meekly came back. Have no idea if its true, but it makes sense

They basically blackmail everyone by virtue of disconnection.

Its likely what Haggis said.  By the time you figure out that the OT levels don't make sense, your entire family and circle of friends are Scientologists.  It becomes easier not to leave unless something makes it more uncomfortable to stay or easier to go.

They didn't say when Haggis' kids left but it sounds like they weren't in Scientology or weren't devoted to it because Paul was worrying about his wife not leaving but didn't mention concern about his kids.  It sounded like Haggis started thinking the OT levels were a letdown about ten years or so in, so maybe he didn't pull his kids in as fully as others did.  Plus his wife had been forced to disconnect with her parents and Haggis joined on his own rather than being a 2nd gen member.  So there was likely some support outside Scientology for him already.  And he had/has a good career.

They made Leah's life miserable after TomKat wedding.  And I believe her sister got out before she did.  And her mother was at the point that she decided OT VIII was a disappointing.  So Leah's family all exited, making it easier to go.

That's why I think the celebs that are 2nd/3rd generation or the celebs that aren't doing great career wise will be less likely to leave.

[pinguina]

I found this episode fascinating!  Paul Haggis was clear, calm, and collected as he shared his experiences.   As others have said, when he was trying to say that no man is perfect and began to use Martin Luther King as a comparison or example, then was completely shut down - I thought, "Did I just hear what I heard??"  

Do the "celebrities" who are in really believe this stuff?  Or have they just been willingly blind because they seem to be treated well and catered to? Or is it as Paul H. said in regards to himself - that they "pick and choose" what they want and try to disregard the rest?  

I think this cult is just so sad!  You can't trust anyone (not even family), your "church" records your "confessions", your seem to live under constant threats, you can be subject to punishment for perceived "sins", you are encouraged to get into debt to afford the "church", and you are told to not see family as family.  Just a terrible thing to be in.

[LilWharveyGal]

Mike's response to Scientology's response to Episode 6.

[spiderpig]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I can and do expect more from Katie.  She's really disappointed me.  Katie got out with her child because she was front and center, and even participated in the alienation of Nicole's kids.  It is no coincidence that Nicole gave an interview speaking of the pain she feels that her kids call her "Nicole", and Katie quickly gives an interview stating Nicole's kids call her "mom".  Total bitch move, and done to show the world that Katie is the superior parent, and Nicole is a massive loser who cannot hold on to her own kids.  With the unspoken suggestion that Nicole sees her adopted children as inferior.

There are normal, everyday people risking themselves to expose the evils of Scientology.  They are not millionaires, like Katie.  They don't necessarily have ironclad contracts protecting their children, like Katie.  I really don't care if Katie loses some money by speaking out.  She is independently wealthy, and young and capable of making millions more.  If she spoke out, and Cruise punished her, that would be one of the biggest steps in crumbling Scientology.  Katie holds that in the palm of her hand, and does nothing with it.  I don't respect her.  Others do and that's fine.

Katie could even continue to be a coward and let people around her leak anonymously.  There are a large number of people in Katie's life who know the truth, and they're only holding back out of respect for Katie's wishes, IMO.  I will not apologize for having these feelings.  I just won't.  We're watching a show in which people have lost everything for Scientology, and continue to risk everything.  It's hard to deny that Katie has given up nothing.  And she is the most protected out of all the people we have seen.  She's not staying silent to protect her child - it's clear Tom doesn't want Suri, and/or the agreement keeps him from her.  She's not staying silent to protect her two other "children" - she clearly has no interest in them.  She's apparently staying silent to protect her multi-millions.  I refuse to make excuses for her.  This is just my honest opinion.  But Katie has always been this way, I don't know why I expected more of her. 

Was it worth it, Katie?  I'm a gossip hound, and as far as I know your career has gone nowhere.

Maybe your doe-eyed innocence wouldn't have gone far in Hwood anyway, but it's clear TommyGirl and the CO$ did nothing for you other than leave you with the stink of The Cult.

At least you seem to be giving your daughter a decent upbringing now after exposing her to those high-heel, midnight-outing pap jaunts engineered by The Cult.

[WInterfalls]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I can and do expect more from Katie.  She's really disappointed me.  Katie got out with her child because she was front and center, and even participated in the alienation of Nicole's kids.  It is no coincidence that Nicole gave an interview speaking of the pain she feels that her kids call her "Nicole", and Katie quickly gives an interview stating Nicole's kids call her "mom".  Total bitch move, and done to show the world that Katie is the superior parent, and Nicole is a massive loser who cannot hold on to her own kids.  With the unspoken suggestion that Nicole sees her adopted children as inferior.

There are normal, everyday people risking themselves to expose the evils of Scientology.  They are not millionaires, like Katie.  They don't necessarily have ironclad contracts protecting their children, like Katie.  I really don't care if Katie loses some money by speaking out.  She is independently wealthy, and young and capable of making millions more.  If she spoke out, and Cruise punished her, that would be one of the biggest steps in crumbling Scientology.  Katie holds that in the palm of her hand, and does nothing with it.  I don't respect her.  Others do and that's fine.

Katie could even continue to be a coward and let people around her leak anonymously.  There are a large number of people in Katie's life who know the truth, and they're only holding back out of respect for Katie's wishes, IMO.  I will not apologize for having these feelings.  I just won't.  We're watching a show in which people have lost everything for Scientology, and continue to risk everything.  It's hard to deny that Katie has given up nothing.  And she is the most protected out of all the people we have seen.  She's not staying silent to protect her child - it's clear Tom doesn't want Suri, and/or the agreement keeps him from her.  She's not staying silent to protect her two other "children" - she clearly has no interest in them.  She's apparently staying silent to protect her multi-millions.  I refuse to make excuses for her.  This is just my honest opinion.  But Katie has always been this way, I don't know why I expected more of her. 

Well ok then. I'm not asking you to apologize for your opinion. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm just giving mine as well. I'm sure Katie could do more but I also think that she probably just wants to get on with her life. Did she say and do shitty things while she was with Tom? Absolutely. I still don't think she could do anything for Connor and Bella because they would be trained to cut her out immediately. I'm not a Holmes fan I just understand why some people would not necessarily want to speak out. But hey let's not fight. We can all agree Tom is a real piece of crap right? 

[RedheadZombie]

3 minutes ago, WInterfalls said:

Well ok then. I'm not asking you to apologize for your opinion. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm just giving mine as well. I'm sure Katie could do more but I also think that she probably just wants to get on with her life. Did she say and do shitty things while she was with Tom? Absolutely. I still don't think she could do anything for Connor and Bella because they would be trained to cut her out immediately. I'm not a Holmes fan I just understand why some people would not necessarily want to speak out. But hey let's not fight. We can all agree Tom is a real piece of crap right? 

Sorry Winterfalls, I should have stressed that my reply wasn't aimed solely at you.  It was aimed at those who make excuses for Katie, and/or defend her decision to stay silent. 

Just expressing an alternative opinion, albeit a little too vociferously. 

[WInterfalls]

19 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Sorry Winterfalls, I should have stressed that my reply wasn't aimed solely at you.  It was aimed at those who make excuses for Katie, and/or defend her decision to stay silent. 

Just expressing an alternative opinion, albeit a little too vociferously. 

Wait are we still on the internet? I'm fairly sure we aren't allowed to have civilized conversation on the internet. 

[smorbie]

19 hours ago, WInterfalls said:

And it goes directly to what Mike and Leah and everyone else has been saying about how Scientology critics are attacked.  They never ever address the actual accusations.  They just hurl this is what's wrong with this person. OK Leah's rude so what? OK Mike wasn't around for his daughter how does that make it ok to throw him in the hole for two years? 

 

You really could tell that Paul was touched that Leah hadn't disconnected from him although I don't think they were close.  I like how Leah didn't soak up the accolade though she just said she should have believed him and left sooner.  

Nicole and Katie got out and that's something at least.  I don't blame Katie for leaving with just Suri; it's more than Nicole managed.  I don't think she could have done anything for Connor and Bella if even their own mother couldn't, and they were almost adults at that point anyway.  There is no telling what sort of relationship they had.  I wouldn't call Katie one of the heroes of the ex-Scientology movement, but I don't think she's a villain either. 

I think these two women suffered more under tiny tommy and scientology than anyone should have to.  They shouldn't have to ever revisit it.  It's not uncommon for celebrity divorces to come with clauses that the person can NEVER talk publicly about the divorce or the other person.  I'm pretty sure that's what we re looking at here.

[absnow54]

There are normal, everyday people risking themselves to expose the evils of Scientology. They are not millionaires, like Katie. They don't necessarily have ironclad contracts protecting their children, like Katie. I really don't care if Katie loses some money by speaking out. She is independently wealthy, and young and capable of making millions more. If she spoke out, and Cruise punished her, that would be one of the biggest steps in crumbling Scientology. Katie holds that in the palm of her hand, and does nothing with it. I don't respect her. Others do and that's fine.

I'm not sure how ironclad her contracts are when they have silly stipulations like "can't publicly date for 5 years." I'm sure money is a big reason she's staying quiet, but I also feel like her leverage in the negotiations was the things she could say. Based on Paul Haggis's experience, it seemed like the church was on edge when he left, but not on the offensive, it was only when he allowed his resignation letter to leak that they tried to drag him through the coals. I also feel like Katie was pretty complicit through the ordeal (I really hope she apologized to Nicole Kidman.) I mean within a few weeks of the debut of TomKat the details of the arrangement was pretty well documented down to the length of the contract, so I understand why she's not throwing Tom and CO$ in front of a bus, because she'd have to dive in too. I don't see Katie Holmes as a hero either, and I'm sure she's staying quiet to protect her daughter, but she's also definitely staying quiet to protect herself. I really,really want to read her tell all because I think it would be compelling as hell.

[smorbie]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I had heard that he had considered leaving after his son died, but suddenly 18 months later Kelly Preston, who is never leaving, is having another baby. Leah has said that she doesn't think Travolta will ever leave in part because they got to him so early that he attributes every bit of success, professional and personal, to the Co$.

It was during this period of contemplating leaving the church that suddenly he was accused of assaulting the men who massaged him.  I don't think any of that ever happened.  That has scientology smear written all over it.  Notice how those accusations abruptly ended?  That's most likely because Travolta was looped back into the crock.  They work like the mafia (Your sister has a pretty face.  It would be a shame if somethin' happened to it).

Homosexual, not homosexual, I don't care.  That's been the buzz about him for years.  But, he's been married a long time and produced three children, so, maybe not.  It seems to me the homosexual rumors hover around many actors who aren't gay.  But, again, don't care.  That's between him and God.

I don't think he's a has been.  I think since his son died, he's focused on his personal life and his children more than acting.  I saw a pic of him the other day posted on this site, and he's thin again.  So, he may be working on something.  Also, unlike Cruse, I do think Travolta turns down roles to be with his family.  But, again, that's just my opinion.

8 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

They basically blackmail everyone by virtue of disconnection.

Its likely what Haggis said.  By the time you figure out that the OT levels don't make sense, your entire family and circle of friends are Scientologists.  It becomes easier not to leave unless something makes it more uncomfortable to stay or easier to go.

They didn't say when Haggis' kids left but it sounds like they weren't in Scientology or weren't devoted to it because Paul was worrying about his wife not leaving but didn't mention concern about his kids.  It sounded like Haggis started thinking the OT levels were a letdown about ten years or so in, so maybe he didn't pull his kids in as fully as others did.  Plus his wife had been forced to disconnect with her parents and Haggis joined on his own rather than being a 2nd gen member.  So there was likely some support outside Scientology for him already.  And he had/has a good career.

They made Leah's life miserable after TomKat wedding.  And I believe her sister got out before she did.  And her mother was at the point that she decided OT VIII was a disappointing.  So Leah's family all exited, making it easier to go.

That's why I think the celebs that are 2nd/3rd generation or the celebs that aren't doing great career wise will be less likely to leave.

He did say he was worried about leaving because she was making "gains" in scientology, whatever that means.

[Whimsy]

8 hours ago, LilWharveyGal said:

Mike's response to Scientology's response to Episode 6.

From Mike's response "But then they drive their clown car right off the credibility cliff".  Bwahahaha.  I love him.

25 minutes ago, smorbie said:

He did say he was worried about leaving because she was making "gains" in scientology, whatever that means.

I want to know what that means to.  In my opinion, I just think it means she was on the OT levels and coincidentally good things were happening- in her career or whatever.  But, I do not for one second believe it was BECAUSE of Scientology she was having whatever success, it was in SPITE of it.

[Ina123]

I'll always love Haggis for his contribution to "Facts of Life". What a great show. His exposing Scientology is the cherry on top.

[CaughtOnTape]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I can and do expect more from Katie.  She's really disappointed me.  Katie got out with her child because she was front and center, and even participated in the alienation of Nicole's kids.  It is no coincidence that Nicole gave an interview speaking of the pain she feels that her kids call her "Nicole", and Katie quickly gives an interview stating Nicole's kids call her "mom".  Total bitch move, and done to show the world that Katie is the superior parent, and Nicole is a massive loser who cannot hold on to her own kids.  With the unspoken suggestion that Nicole sees her adopted children as inferior.

There are normal, everyday people risking themselves to expose the evils of Scientology.  They are not millionaires, like Katie.  They don't necessarily have ironclad contracts protecting their children, like Katie.  I really don't care if Katie loses some money by speaking out.  She is independently wealthy, and young and capable of making millions more.  If she spoke out, and Cruise punished her, that would be one of the biggest steps in crumbling Scientology.  Katie holds that in the palm of her hand, and does nothing with it.  I don't respect her.  Others do and that's fine.

Katie could even continue to be a coward and let people around her leak anonymously.  There are a large number of people in Katie's life who know the truth, and they're only holding back out of respect for Katie's wishes, IMO.  I will not apologize for having these feelings.  I just won't.  We're watching a show in which people have lost everything for Scientology, and continue to risk everything.  It's hard to deny that Katie has given up nothing.  And she is the most protected out of all the people we have seen.  She's not staying silent to protect her child - it's clear Tom doesn't want Suri, and/or the agreement keeps him from her.  She's not staying silent to protect her two other "children" - she clearly has no interest in them.  She's apparently staying silent to protect her multi-millions.  I refuse to make excuses for her.  This is just my honest opinion.  But Katie has always been this way, I don't know why I expected more of her. 

I mean....yeah.  But Nicole isn't exactly some paragon of virtue.  She walked away from her kids.  Sure, they were in the hands of a cult and there was little she could do, but she still walked away.  She won the Golden Globe last weekend and specifically mentioned her kids....only it was just the kids she had with Keith.  She didn't say squat about the other two.  So...it's not like she should be lauded for everything she went through.  She was also complicit to a lot of things and keeps silent even though she had a front row seat for longer than Katie did.  

[juliet73]

If anyone is interested, here is a copy of Paul Haggis's resignation letter to the "church"  http://www.scientology-cult.com/declarations-of-independence/59-paul-haggis/158-paul-haggis-resigns-from-church-of-scientology.html  Also, here is the link for the article in The New Yorker that was discussed in this episode:  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-apostate-lawrence-wright  Both are excellent reading!

 I want to be Paul's friend.  He's totally cool in the most unassuming way.  I thought this was one of the best episodes thus far.  Paul was straight forward, factual and didn't let his emotions steer him away from what needed to be told.  He presented himself in a calm and likable manner - the exact opposite of the "church".

OT, I love the Co$ nicknames are food related...Miss Cabbage, the clams, Muffins - I think Rindah gets credit for naming the "church's" lawyer that one.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Mike's response to Scientology's response to Episode 6.

Thanks - that's the first time I've read one of those and it's pretty hilarious. It reinforces something I noticed myself about the disclaimers they air on this show. The "church" doesn't directly dispute what people are saying about it, they instead attack those people's character in an effort to discredit them. So-and-so was always "expelled" from the church for violated their rules and being an evil person. Wow there sure are a lot of evil people in Scientology that have to be expelled!

It also occurred to me during this episode that Scientology really peaked in the 1970s as a natural result of the rise of interest in alternative faiths, like astrology, mysticism and transcendental meditation. They managed to survive and thrive in the pre-internet age when the sort of stuff we're hearing now didn't get out. I really don't think they can survive, as an organization, for much longer. 

[funky-rat]

3 hours ago, Whimsy said:

From Mike's response "But then they drive their clown car right off the credibility cliff".  Bwahahaha.  I love him.

I want to know what that means to.  In my opinion, I just think it means she was on the OT levels and coincidentally good things were happening- in her career or whatever.  But, I do not for one second believe it was BECAUSE of Scientology she was having whatever success, it was in SPITE of it.

To me, it meant that up to that point, she wasn't getting much out of the cult's teachings, but had finally begun to experience something.  She probably relayed that to him.  Maybe it was lip service from her to make him happy.  We'll never know.  The fact that she was ready to jump with him makes me feel it may have just been something she said.

[Guest]

We're getting pretty far off-topic.  I know there was discussion of various celebrities on the show, but if a celebrity wasn't prominent in the episode (such as Travolta, Nicole Kidman, etc.) please take it to the High Profile Scientologists thread.

Thank you!

[VioletMarx]

7 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

I mean....yeah.  But Nicole isn't exactly some paragon of virtue.  She walked away from her kids.  Sure, they were in the hands of a cult and there was little she could do, but she still walked away.  She won the Golden Globe last weekend and specifically mentioned her kids....only it was just the kids she had with Keith.  She didn't say squat about the other two.  So...it's not like she should be lauded for everything she went through.  She was also complicit to a lot of things and keeps silent even though she had a front row seat for longer than Katie did.  

 I noticed that but then I wonder if she thinks mentioning them will irritate them, or if they have specifically asked her to not mention them in public.  We have no way of knowing what has gone on behind the scenes.

[Wavy]

This was a good episode.  Wish more of the "famous" who left would allow Leah  and Mike to interview them.

I'm curious about the people who left but claim they still practice Scientology.  I wonder how that works .

[juliet73]

I don't think Katie or Nicole will ever say anything, not just because of money or a legal contract, but because they  both moved on with their lives. I think the little time they were involved with the "church" wouldn't add anything to what has already been said or known so it's not worth it for them to put themselves out there, IMO.   

[RHJunkie]

On 2017-09-20 at 0:38 PM, iMonrey said:

Ooh, this one was good. It's one thing to have random "civilians" tell us their stories - as compelling as they are, it's easy for a lot of people to dismiss them. But you get a two-time Oscar winning writer and director like Paul Haggis telling the same story it's a lot harder to ignore. I've got to believe the Co$ is sweating bullets right about now. The show really got down and dirty parading all those celebrity clips, basically calling them out in a way they haven't until now. I loved Leah saying "that was a pussy answer."

I've heard she signed some kind of non-disclosure agreement when she married Tom. I don't know if that's true but I believe it's possible she's legally compelled to keep her mouth shut about certain things. I also think she's still trying to save her career which really hasn't gone anywhere. She might thing spilling dirty laundry about her marriage and about Scientology won't help her image or acting opportunities.

Katie fell off the map basically once Dawson's Creek ended. She landed the Batman role but really, her career has never been something wildly magnificent even when she was with Cruise. She's been pretty low key since her split with Cruise and more so than just acting opportunities, I think that she retained full custody of Suri because she agreed to keep her mouth shut about Cruise and Scientology.

[msrachelj]

On 9/19/2017 at 10:38 PM, veronicamers said:

Wow. Haggis was riveting tonight. Such a logical, measured, calm approach. Interesting he was surprised Leah was still hurt by the things current COS celebs say about her. I was like, have you met her? Leah is emotional, honest, raw, turned up to 11 all the time. She doesn't have it in her to be detached. And thank goodness for her passion or we wouldn't have this show.

I was so glad they showed that Prepon video which is just the most contrived nonsense ever. Girl, go home with that. 

These people are so crazy with their weak pot shots. If Elisabeth Moss publicly left COS tomorrow they'd be all "She only won the Emmy as a fluke. No one watches The Handmaid's Tale. And oh, the second season of Top of the Lake sucks."

he was fantastic. it made for a great episode.  i was very impressed with the way he kept his composure but got all the facts and story out there. a perfect orator. and he seems like a very nice man. 

[msrachelj]

On 9/20/2017 at 1:02 AM, RedheadZombie said:

Nicole will take it to the grave, IMO.  I think she will stay mum in the slim hope that her children will come back to her.

As to Katie, she's never shown signs of wanting to help anyone in CO$, including her own "children" Bella and Connor.  Yes, I'm a little bitter.  Cruise hasn't seen Suri in years, and Katie's father wrote up an ironclad agreement ensuring Suri's safety.  Katie could speak up and has chosen not to.  And she's only given a half-assed lukewarm apology for her part in causing Leah trouble.  There are a bunch of heroes in the ex-Scientology movement, and Katie is not one of them - by choice.

that's the reason i am not a big fan of katie. of course we don't know exactly what the deal is. but i find it very off-putting that miss holmes has not spoked out. she has her child,  unlike nicole. who i also hope someday is able to tell her story. 

23 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

Katie fell off the map basically once Dawson's Creek ended. She landed the Batman role but really, her career has never been something wildly magnificent even when she was with Cruise. She's been pretty low key since her split with Cruise and more so than just acting opportunities, I think that she retained full custody of Suri because she agreed to keep her mouth shut about Cruise and Scientology.

my question is. what could possibly happen to her if she speaks out? is there a legal agreement that she only gets to keep her child if she keeps mum on cruise and scientology. is that actually a legal thing? it sounds like it should not hold up.

[DkNNy79]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 9:33 PM, MelissaMinion said:

Oh, MY. Well, Laura Prepon, if you're going to be filmed saying you haven't seen any Scientology info that is detrimental to homosexuality, what does that say about you? 

-Are you just a failed student of Scientology? Because the info is right there....maybe you should go back and re-read? Maybe you missed a word?

-Or, are you just too lazy to look beyond the Celebrity Level Scientology you've been spoon fed?

 

I need to stop now. Her little video clip has gotten me upset.

I finally got to watch the episode last night.  OMG - she looked like a total idiot.  The lies that these folks spew in the name of their "church."