S02.E06: Scientology and Celebrity: The Betrayal of Paul Haggis

[BckpckFullaNinjas]

12 hours ago, smorbie said:

was on Comcast's On Demand the next day.  I rewatched it.

Finally turned up on mine today. Boffo! Heartbroken that his sister dissed him and succumbed to cancer before she came to her senses. Poor woman, poor man. 

[smorbie]

3 hours ago, BckpckFullaNinjas said:

Finally turned up on mine today. Boffo! Heartbroken that his sister dissed him and succumbed to cancer before she came to her senses. Poor woman, poor man. 

On the other hand, I did enjoy her referring to his Oscar wins as accidental.  Don't you hate when that happens?  The last four Oscars I won have just been sitting in my closet.

[Cherpumple]

Loved this episode. When I first heard about Scientology many moons ago, one of the first pictures I saw was of the ostentatious Celebrity Centre in LA, and even though I knew absolutely nothing about the tenets of this group, I had an immediate "the emperor has no clothes" reaction and instantly realized that this "religion" was nothing more than a calculated cash grab. I mean really, who could possibly see an organization perform such blatant ass-kissing of the rich and famous and think of it as having anything to do with spiritual enlightenment or helping the world? And I burst out laughing this episode at the LRH quotes calling celebrities "the best people in the world" (paraphrasing). Bwah! Just because someone has some talent at acting or singing? Ridiculous. How is this not the biggest red flag for any potential members? Aside from celebrities of course, who would look forward to that extra pampering. I know this isn't a group that espouses "the meek shall inherit the earth", but having an actual non-ironic Celebrity Centre? Really?

[MsTree]

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

How is this not the biggest red flag for any potential members?

For exactly the reason you mentioned...in a word "celebrities".  Some people envision themselves as part of a group, and hey, if it's good enough for the celebs, they want to believe it'll be even better for them.

Monkey see, monkey do.

[Cherpumple]

That's very depressing, but probably true for many people.

[cynicat]

I'm not totally surprised that the celebrities are willing to drink the Kool-aid and support CO$.  They are treated like royalty and live in a completely different world.  Constant ego stroking, luxurious accommodations, and being given medals as big as their heads has to play a part.  It's tailor-made for people are often seeking affirmation  . There is no reason for them to want to look behind the curtain--life is great!  They're only human after all.

[absnow54]

This has me thinking, have any Scientologist actors broken into the business in a post-Tom Cruise Couch Jump/Mass Defection of High Level Members-era? Elisabeth Moss, maybe? But she already had The West Wing to her credits. The younger Masterson kids? Riley Keough seems to be in everything Steven Soderbergh makes these days, but she has the legacy of Elvis to overcome the cult thing. Interestingly enough, she was just in a movie with Katie Holmes (and still seems close to her mother even though Lisa Marie allegedly left.)

[smorbie]

I think Riley is out as well.

[3girlsforus]

11 hours ago, smorbie said:

On the other hand, I did enjoy her referring to his Oscar wins as accidental.  Don't you hate when that happens?  The last four Oscars I won have just been sitting in my closet.

That was hilarious. Yep - he just accidentally won two Oscars and had three other nominations. So many actors out there wish they knew how to 'accidentally' get one. 

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

That was hilarious. Yep - he just accidentally won two Oscars and had three other nominations. So many actors out there wish they knew how to 'accidentally' get one. 

including the world's greatest scientologist

[FairyDusted]

On 9/21/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ina123 said:

I'll always love Haggis for his contribution to "Facts of Life". What a great show. His exposing Scientology is the cherry on top.

I am no longer ashamed of owning the box set. 

[smorbie]

31 minutes ago, FairyDusted said:

I am no longer ashamed of owning the box set. 

NEVER be ashamed of your video library (unless it's full of nothing but porn, of course).  It aired at a time in your life that allowed it to touch you and mean something to you.  That makes it special.  See my dissertations on The Middle and Psych if you don't believe me.

He would probably be very glad you still love it.  Knowing he worked on that show, I wasn't surprised to discover he was the father of three girls, were you?

Edited September 24, 2017 by smorbie

[FairyDusted]

I wasn't actually. I felt he came through as a very loving father who is very proud of all his daughters. Good on them! Love it.

My TV collection is crazy! Def outweighs my movie section.

[HunterHunted]

On 9/22/2017 at 7:41 AM, msrachelj said:

my question is. what could possibly happen to her if she speaks out? is there a legal agreement that she only gets to keep her child if she keeps mum on cruise and scientology. is that actually a legal thing? it sounds like it should not hold up.

I'm sure there is a non-disclosure agreement. She can't lose custody of Suri for speaking out, but I'm sure there are monetary penalties for violating NDA that would bankrupt her. And Cruise could make a convincing argument that Katie's blabbing caused that amount of damage to his career. He made $43 million last year. He's worth $500 million. Katie is worth $20 million. The NDA could simply have a $20 million penalty.

14 hours ago, absnow54 said:

This has me thinking, have any Scientologist actors broken into the business in a post-Tom Cruise Couch Jump/Mass Defection of High Level Members-era? Elisabeth Moss, maybe? But she already had The West Wing to her credits. The younger Masterson kids? Riley Keough seems to be in everything Steven Soderbergh makes these days, but she has the legacy of Elvis to overcome the cult thing. Interestingly enough, she was just in a movie with Katie Holmes (and still seems close to her mother even though Lisa Marie allegedly left.)

I think Moss and Prepon's success on Orange is the New Black are their most notable successes in this post couch jump era.

Haggis said that when he was going through his courses, he took issue with some of what was written. They told him to use what works and ignore the rest. I'm curious if they tell this to every Scientologist or only the celebrity ones.

[Rlb8031]

On 9/23/2017 at 7:16 PM, AZChristian said:

Actors are like a large segment of humanity (sadly):  They are willing to compromise their beliefs in the name of a paycheck.  

"Yes, I'm VERY concerned about global warming.  Oh, you're going to pay me to appear at a political rally to support encouraging people to 'Go Green'?  And you'll send a private jet?  Awesome.  What time shall I drive my Hummer to the airport to catch the plane?"

I listened to a lot of Aisha Tyler's podcast where she tries to disabuse listeners of the notion that actors have the ability to make either artistic or philosophic decisions about who they will work with and what projects they will work on. In her explanation only 4-5 actors have that ability and they are literally the largest box office draws (Tom C., Will Smith, Harrison Ford, Robert Downey Jr., Tom Hanks, etc). Everyone else gets scripts begs their agents to get them a reading, goes out and puts on the hard sell for the role, and takes whatever jobs come along. They are much more focused on the cable bill, gas for the car, rent, etc. than they are with the artistic quality or their feelings about folks generally. Many artists will sacrifice their beliefs to get a paycheck (which is why you'd see someone who is a staunch Catholic in a movie like "Dogma" or "The Temptation of Christ"). Artists as a whole sacrifice a lot to just make/perform their art. Adam West talked about getting shot out of a cannon at car shows during the 70's and 80's when he couldn't get work in Hollywood as an actor. I have no doubt that there are plenty of actors who think Co$ is a scam but would take a role in a Tom Cruise production in a minute if it meant they could pay for their kid's braces, or keep the lights on for the next six months.

[jaync]

Quote

They didn't say when Haggis' kids left but it sounds like they weren't in Scientology or weren't devoted to it because Paul was worrying about his wife not leaving but didn't mention concern about his kids.  It sounded like Haggis started thinking the OT levels were a letdown about ten years or so in, so maybe he didn't pull his kids in as fully as others did. 

One of his daughters was prominently featured in the second episode of this season, but I don't remember what was said about her own time as a $cieno.

[WInterfalls]

Paul Haggis's kids were raised in Scientology they went to Scientology schools growing up, but I don't think it ever really took for them.  You can quietly leave Scientology and not be declared as long as you do it "the right way" and you never say anything bad about the church.  I think I remember reading in something (The Apostate, Going Clear one of those) that 2 of Paul Haggis's 3 daughters are gay, and they felt uncomfortable in the church. I recall Paul Haggis saying he did not learn until later that his daughters felt they had been harassed and discriminated against in their Scientology school.  

[Ruprecht]

The first time I watched this episode, I almost pumped my fist in celebration. I had to watch it again to make sure it was really THAT GOOD. Like almost everyone here, I relished how clear, honest, articulate, and direct Paul Haggis was in his interview. His reasoning for getting involved in Scientology was interesting (as a loner, he looked for a group that everyone despised and said "I'll join that!"- ha!). And when he saw that Tommy Davis flat-out lied on TV about disconnection, he began questioning "What else are they lying about?" Abuses of Sea Org members? David Miscaivage physically assaulting the leadership? I loved when he said if even a percentage of that was true, it was too much and needed to be addressed. 

My hope is that this isn't just "trending". I hope that this show actually motivates people in the church to leave it and those who have the ability to investigate it and force changes, to do so. 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:06 PM, Chaos Theory said:

So people who don't make enemies of Scientology are evil?  Isn't that what Scientology does?  

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."  Katie is rich and famous.  She shows no courage or empathy for her fellow former-Scientologists.  I do hold her accountable when we watch a show weekly, in which ordinary people give up everything to out this cult.  When Katie doesn't speak against them, there is tacit agreement with what they do. 

I don't say Katie is evil.  But she does nothing to keep evil from prevailing.  She has that power and she has wealth, but chooses to do nothing as people suffer.  I can't respect that.  And how she holds onto that sweetheart image is beyond me.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:41 PM, kieyra said:

I'm also guessing Nicole and Katie would be getting less grief (and we wouldn't be hearing the phrase "abandoned her kids" about kids who stayed in the church with the other parent) if they were men instead of women.

Please don't assign that motivation to me.  Seriously, who gets more flack than Tom Cruise and Miscavige?  But I agree, it's horribly unfair that Nicole gets blamed for how the "church" damaged her children and destroyed their relationship.

Edited September 27, 2017 by RedheadZombie
Grammar.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 5:16 PM, Waterlilly said:

Read "The Unbreakable Miss Lovely". By Tony Ortega. You will be amazed by the lengths they will go to destroy someone.

But that was almost five decades ago, as was the IRS B&E.  By no means do I take the CO$ lightly, but the peak of their power is long gone.  Mike Rinder outed Miscavige's brutality a decade ago, and Haggis, Going Clear, Leah, and this show have laid it all on the line.   I do not doubt the "church" has the ability to make an average citizen disappear, but no way they make a move on celebrities.  Tony Ortega would have been dead long ago if they were willing to take on high profile people.  Bottom line is they are cowards.  After Miscavige showed his crazy on Nightline, he has not given another TV interview.  CO$ ending is a matter of when not if.  And I truly feel one of the answers if boycotting Cruise films, as they bring multi-millions into the church with every movie. 

[film noire]

On 9/22/2017 at 2:38 PM, italianguy626 said:

I have a kid and if there was a possibility that an organization was going to go after my kid, I'm going to be damn sure to do whatever it takes to protect the kid.

Amen. No woman should be criticized for weighing the cost of exposing a vengeful cult against the safety of her own child, and then putting her child first. I wouldn't put my dog in their path, never mind a kid (go ask Joel Sappell how easy it is to poison a beloved animal companion and get away with it).

eta: Joel Sappell:

"More than one source had told Bob and me to keep an eye on our pets. Others who’d run afoul of church leaders had lost beloved animals under suspicious circumstances, they claim—but I hadn’t listened. Not long after Crystal fell ill, I got another call—this one from Los Angeles Superior Court judge Ronald Swearinger.

I’d never spoken to him, but I was covering a nasty civil trial over which he was presiding that pitted the Church of Scientology against a former church member...“I hear your dog was poisoned,” the judge said softly. I was startled. It’s highly unusual for judges to contact reporters during a trial, especially when they’ve already been accused of bias. There was a pause as Swearinger took a breath. “My dog was drowned,” he said, referring to his collie. “We found him dead in our pool. He’d never go near the water on his own.”

http://www.lamag.com/longform/the-tip-of-the-spear/

Anything you love, they will hurt.

Edited September 27, 2017 by film noire

[Auntie Anxiety]

7 hours ago, film noire said:

that pitted the Church of Scientology against a former church member...“I hear your dog was poisoned,” the judge said softly. I was startled. It’s highly unusual for judges to contact reporters during a trial, especially when they’ve already been accused of bias. There was a pause as Swearinger took a breath. “My dog was drowned,” he said, referring to his collie. “We found him dead in our pool. He’d never go near the water on his own.”

Such a vile bunch of pod people. They will stop at nothing. 

[smorbie]

10 hours ago, film noire said:

Amen. No woman should be criticized for weighing the cost of exposing a vengeful cult against the safety of her own child, and then putting her child first. I wouldn't put my dog in their path, never mind a kid (go ask Joel Sappell how easy it is to poison a beloved animal companion and get away with it).

eta: Joel Sappell:

"More than one source had told Bob and me to keep an eye on our pets. Others who’d run afoul of church leaders had lost beloved animals under suspicious circumstances, they claim—but I hadn’t listened. Not long after Crystal fell ill, I got another call—this one from Los Angeles Superior Court judge Ronald Swearinger.

I’d never spoken to him, but I was covering a nasty civil trial over which he was presiding that pitted the Church of Scientology against a former church member...“I hear your dog was poisoned,” the judge said softly. I was startled. It’s highly unusual for judges to contact reporters during a trial, especially when they’ve already been accused of bias. There was a pause as Swearinger took a breath. “My dog was drowned,” he said, referring to his collie. “We found him dead in our pool. He’d never go near the water on his own.”

http://www.lamag.com/longform/the-tip-of-the-spear/

Anything you love, they will hurt.

They MUST be destroyed.  You mess with adults, that's at least half on them.  Children and animals, though?  NO!  We need to figure out a way to act.  What do you guys think we could do that will help burn this monstrosity to the ground?

[BckpckFullaNinjas]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

I’d never spoken to him, but I was covering a nasty civil trial over which he was presiding that pitted the Church of Scientology against a former church member...“I hear your dog was poisoned,” the judge said softly. I was startled. It’s highly unusual for judges to contact reporters during a trial, especially when they’ve already been accused of bias. There was a pause as Swearinger took a breath. “My dog was drowned,” he said, referring to his collie. “We found him dead in our pool. He’d never go near the water on his own.”

"Most ethical people on the planet" my foot. The heavens bless everybody from Miss Lovely on up to today, who are fighting to expose and stop this criminal organization. 

[eskimo]

On 9/19/2017 at 9:26 PM, Maelstrom said:

 I'm glad for their sakes that they get a little levity now and then.

 

 

This is an excellent series and I appreciate the rawness of it, but sometimes when I get too much of a heavy feeling I remind myself of the guy who left the 'church' and his neighbor disconnected from him and his family.  But not the dog.  He wouldn't understand.  That story, and their reactions to it, bring me up a little bit.  lol

[Monie]

On 9/19/2017 at 6:41 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I'm torn.  Last season Leah was pretty cautious about attacking any celebrities on the show and in her appearances.  But she is going after other celebs in interviews for not standing up against the abuses this year; much like Haggis' attitude seems to be in the clips they've shown.

I think all the people that have come to her with their stories may have stamped out any sympathy for the celebs that are still stuck where she was before Scientology became uncomfortable enough that she got out.

She outed Jada over the weekend.  I think there was a reason for that.  I'm not sure anyone who is or was  in can trust their name won't be mentioned. But I think they'll focus on why celebs are recruited, how they get treated differently and shame on them for being willfully ignorant collectively rather than personal anecdotes on XYZ celeb.

The thing to me is ....if the celebrities are so proud of Scientology, why should they care if they are outed as being a member of the church. Jada Pinkett has denied being in, correct?? Her ego is beyond belief!

[smorbie]

13 hours ago, eskimo said:

This is an excellent series and I appreciate the rawness of it, but sometimes when I get too much of a heavy feeling I remind myself of the guy who left the 'church' and his neighbor disconnected from him and his family.  But not the dog.  He wouldn't understand.  That story, and their reactions to it, bring me up a little bit.  lol

She did end up having to disconnect from the dog, though.

3 hours ago, Monie said:

The thing to me is ....if the celebrities are so proud of Scientology, why should they care if they are outed as being a member of the church. Jada Pinkett has denied being in, correct?? Her ego is beyond belief!

Yeah, don't get me started on her.  Scientology only adds to my dislike of this woman.

[eskimo]

26 minutes ago, smorbie said:

She did end up having to disconnect from the dog, though.

 

What a pity.  :)

[Nancypants]

Where the Fuck is Shelley?

[italianguy626]

On 9/19/2017 at 7:41 PM, ParadoxLost said:

She outed Jada over the weekend.  I think there was a reason for that.  I'm not sure anyone who is or was  in can trust their name won't be mentioned. But I think they'll focus on why celebs are recruited, how they get treated differently and shame on them for being willfully ignorant collectively rather than personal anecdotes on XYZ celeb.

I'm listening to Troublemaker right now, and Leah mentions Jada quite a few times in the book, so Leah has been outing her for some time.

[CofCinci]

8 hours ago, Nancypants said:

Where the Fuck is Shelley?

I wonder if we’ll ever see any resolution. 

[HunterHunted]

Does anyone secretly retitle this episode "The Betrayal of Paul Haggis by the Coward Tommy Davis (or David Miscavige)" ala The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford? Just me? Oh, well.

[Monie]

On 9/27/2017 at 11:26 AM, smorbie said:

They MUST be destroyed.  You mess with adults, that's at least half on them.  Children and animals, though?  NO!  We need to figure out a way to act.  What do you guys think we could do that will help burn this monstrosity to the ground?

EVIL SOB's..... how dare they hurt innocent animals!  Now I am beyond pissed!

Edited October 2, 2017 by Monie

[MamaMax]

On 9/20/2017 at 11:23 AM, absnow54 said:

I found it really interesting when Tommy Davis and company put together a presentation that would prove all of his worries false, and instead of addressing any of his issues, they had just assembled a smear campaign of all the people they'd assumed he'd talked to. It was a phenomenal disconnect between Paul worrying about what was going on in the church, and them panicking over who to point their finger at.

When you can’t disprove the message, you seek to discredit the messenger. 

On 9/21/2017 at 1:45 AM, RedheadZombie said:

Sorry Winterfalls, I should have stressed that my reply wasn't aimed solely at you.  It was aimed at those who make excuses for Katie, and/or defend her decision to stay silent. 

Just expressing an alternative opinion, albeit a little too vociferously. 

 

Lets not forget that miss cabbage’s wife was “disappeared.” If I were katie or Nicole, I’d be scared silent too.

[SunnyBeBe]

Just when I think I've seen all there is to be seen, I'm shocked again at the balls this group has.  They are NOT afraid of law enforcement.  I wonder why.  

I do believe that celebrity members have a responsibility to speak out and do the right thing.  They can't use the excuse of being held in a secret center, shut out from the real world, held against their will.  Yes, they have the fear of being disparaged in the media or losing friends, family, but, this stuff is SERIOUS.  IT's much more important than money.  Member's children are being harmed with their rules, ruined by their refusal to protect them from predators inside the group..people are losing their lives, with no medical attention.  So, when I hear these spoiled celebs blow off the truth, with this FAKE excuse that they aren't interested, it boils me over.  I posted on the Travolota/Celebrity thread about my new found distaste for Elisabeth Moss.  Used to love her, but, didn't know she was part of it.  AND she defends them!  I now have zero respect for her in any way.  Perhaps, criminal prosecution for some of these crimes will shake them up, but, I don't know.  

[smorbie]

15 hours ago, MamaMax said:

When you can’t disprove the message, you seek to discredit the messenger. 

 

Lets not forget that miss cabbage’s wife was “disappeared.” If I were katie or Nicole, I’d be scared silent too.

You ain't just whistling Dixie.  

Oh the other hand Leah's VERY vocal exit from the crock and her fight against it now, has probably made her quite safe.   MANY MANY MANY questions would be asked if she were to just disappear.

[SunnyBeBe]

Even though there would be a huge investigation if Leah disappeared or was harmed in some way, I'm not so sure much would happen.  It seems that some groups or individuals in this country are allowed to operate with impunity.  

[laurakaye]

Is this season over?  I keep looking for the next episode.  

[Birdee]

No. There was a kinda weird long break, but there's a new episode this Tuesday the 10th. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Birdee

[smorbie]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:46 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Even though there would be a huge investigation if Leah disappeared or was harmed in some way, I'm not so sure much would happen.  It seems that some groups or individuals in this country are allowed to operate with impunity.  

I do see that.  However, Leah's a different kind of person, and her ongoing investigation  into this, along with all the people who watch would cause a tremendous uproar.  The crock is already in trouble.  It might not survive such a thing.

[AZChristian]

1 minute ago, smorbie said:

I do see that.  However, Leah's a different kind of person, and her ongoing investigation  into this, along with all the people who watch would cause a tremendous uproar.  The crock is already in trouble.  It might not survive such a thing.

Kind of like on Dateline.  Once in a while, a murder victim leaves a note or tells someone, "If something happens to be, have the police investigate my husband."  Pretty sure that if something happened (God forbid!!) to Leah or Mike, there would be a massive "shred-a-thon" at all of the Co$ sites to try to destroy the evidence.  

[RichiesOlderBro]

On 10/2/2017 at 4:13 PM, Monie said:

EVIL SOB's..... how dare they hurt innocent animals!  Now I am beyond pissed!

I wonder if Mike Rinder was involved in any illegal activities that?   He is a master at not showing any emotion. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

that pitted the Church of Scientology against a former church member...“I hear your dog was poisoned,” the judge said softly. I was startled. It’s highly unusual for judges to contact reporters during a trial, especially when they’ve already been accused of bias. There was a pause as Swearinger took a breath. “My dog was drowned,” he said, referring to his collie. “We found him dead in our pool. He’d never go near the water on his own.”

Quote

I wonder if Mike Rinder was involved in any illegal activities that?   He is a master at not showing any emotion. 

Maybe I read way too many books about serial murder, mass murder, cults, Satanism etc when I was a child in the 1980s but...

Scientology in the 1960's-1980s has some seriously sketchy connections to Satanism, Charlie Manson, and all sorts of murder conspiracies. Now, *obviously* there was also a pretty big Satanism flare up in the 1980s so I do take a lot of what I read as crazy exaggerations but... what about the murders? what about the connections between Scientology and a whole bunch of seriously messed up groups?

[Monie]

8 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

Maybe I read way too many books about serial murder, mass murder, cults, Satanism etc when I was a child in the 1980s but...

Scientology in the 1960's-1980s has some seriously sketchy connections to Satanism, Charlie Manson, and all sorts of murder conspiracies. Now, *obviously* there was also a pretty big Satanism flare up in the 1980s so I do take a lot of what I read as crazy exaggerations but... what about the murders? what about the connections between Scientology and a whole bunch of seriously messed up groups?

Which leads me to think....Where is Shelly?!

[ZoloftBlob]

There's that. Tho as I thought about it, I think they're carefully focusing on the things they can provide witnesses for... the stuff I am talking about would probably be hard to track down at this point.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, ZoloftBlob said:

There's that. Tho as I thought about it, I think they're carefully focusing on the things they can provide witnesses for... the stuff I am talking about would probably be hard to track down at this point.

My guess is if the show runs long enough, they will probably touch on it.  It's in Wright's book, so I'm sure it's pretty well sourced.  There's a video on youtube of Hubbard's great grandson giving a speech.  He talks about his father's autobiography and it details a good bit about the satanism connection.  I would link to it, but I don't remember his name.  It's not Hubbard, it's been changed.  But you can probably find it if you just start looking at scientology videos.

As far as Manson, he did study scientology in a way.  When he went to California after prison, the counter culture was in full swing.  He used to listen to the scientology preacher.  My guess is he befriended him long enough to pick up some pointers in mind control.  He certainly used their tactics.

[ZoloftBlob]

Wright's book? I assume that might be a more credible source than my "The Ultimate Evil" published at the height of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s? :)

[smorbie]

Never heard of that one; I'll have to look it up.

[ZoloftBlob]

It's by Maury Terry and available for kindle for 6.66 (heh) To be fair, it is much more about Satanism but everyone who is a Satanist in the book also seems to be attached to Scientology...