S07.E05: Eastwatch

[HunterHunted]

Nothing tells you more about how much of a chaotic mess Westeros has become than the fact the Citadel refuses to send ravens to the remaining houses to direct them to send troops to The Wall. Maesters are historians and advisors for the lords, king, and generally the realm. They are the last nonpartisan organization in Westeros. The maesters should be advising the Grand Maester who sits on the Kings Small Council. Unfortunately, the maester on the council is Qyburn, who was kicked out of the Citadel for his dangerous messed up experiments. Cersei is a queen who has destroyed most of the great houses, destroyed the central religion of the country, and appointed an unscrupulous excommunicated psychopath to advise her.

If the Lannisters hadn't been so quick to accommodate their psychopathic allies, there would likely still be maesters at the houses that the maesters at the Citadel trusted. But lunatics like the Boltons and weak men like Theon thought nothing of killing maesters as entertainment or a show of strength.

Normally I'd be inclined to think that Cersei is faking her pregnancy, but Qyburn can be heard offering her something for her condition.

Targaryens don't warg, but they do have some connection that their dragon can pick up on the rider's feelings. I don't believe Drogon was sensing that Jon is a Targaryen. He was sensing that Daenerys liked Jon.

Tormund, we know you know exactly what Brienne's name is. Don't try to play coy. You want to take that big warrior maiden and turn her into a big warrior woman. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by HunterHunted

[ImpinAintEasy]

Don't jump to conclusion guys, there may have actually been a Prince Ragger. Need to wait for confirmation...

 

Overall, this episode felt off. I feel like this was three episodes of material packed into 57 minutes or so. The added budget spread over three fewer episodes better deliver in the next two episodes. 

 

Arya and Sansa still not getting along I can buy. Arya being fiercely loyal to Jon is no surprise either. Littlefinger playing the two against each other makes little sense for him, but he's a dead man walking at this point, so whatevs.

 

Cersei preggers? Yeah right. Liar. I guess Jaime is now forced to stick with her till the end now, or is he? 

 

Randyl deserved it. Should have saved his son and bent the damn knee. And last I checked, Dragonstone is part of Westeros, and Dany was born there. 

 

Speaking of Dany, she is clearly smitten with Jon. Her child liking him was the clincher. Can't wait to see them bone. Hopefully Kit and Emilia were game enough to strip it all off. If I recall Kit got out of the cave scene nudity in season 3 because of a broken ankle. Man up and show your kit, Kit!

 

Varys has been made as useless as Littlefinger. What exactly does he bring to the table anymore if he doesn't have his little birds? Someone for Tyrion to talk to, I guess.

 

Gendry and Jon are fast friends. Disappointed Gendry didn't mention Arya. Just like I was disappointed Jon never brought up his relationship with Maester Aemon to Dany. Come on, writers!

 

This wight hunt seems rather suicidal. Nice recommendation Tyrion. If only you knew how batshit crazy your sister is. Oh wait, you do! Like a wight is going to deter her? And now that team Dany is all-aboard the 'let's defeat the Night King or we're all going to fucking die' train, why is Dany not going on this wight hunt to begin with? A dragon or three would seem to be useful. 

 

Two episodes left until the long night. It's going to be tough to top last season's final two, and I'm not expecting them to. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Chinspinner]

My thoughts as I watched: -

1)      That river has some strong currents. How did Jaime and Bronn wind up all the way over there? First the cave painting in the last episode and now this; the show has a few too many convenient little plot devices (bordering deus ex machina) since the source material dried up.

2)      Daenerys’ turn to the dark side continues. I find all the “bend the knee [or death]” scenes a little too on the nose for my liking, it lacks subtlety. She is becoming a tyrant – we get it! This is not helped by the fact that all the nuances to her character have dried up, and she is becoming one-dimensional, or worse; inconsistent.

3)      Tyrion and Varis are whispering behind closed doors, which is always fun. Unfortunately, the tension created by this scene is immediately undone by the next scene, in which…

4)      Daenerys acquiesces to the plan to speak with Cersei far too easily; it went against the development of her character in the previous scenes.

5)      The pacing feels off. Suddenly Tyrion and Jaime are together and it makes the world feel small and without threat. I know the tribulations of evading the Lannister guard are alluded to later, but in a borderline comic scene, again without any real sense of threat.

6)      Interesting that Gendry has made a return at this point.

7)      Hopefully Baelish will find his place on Arya’s list before his plot plays out, but it is nice to see a return to his Machiavellian self.     

Not the best of episodes for me.

[NeenerNeener]

I don't remember anyone saying that Dany is sterile now. I'm not saying it didn't happen; I just don't remember it. And Jon died and was brought back to life, how does he still have active swimmers now?

Of course, I'm asking a show with ice zombies and dragons to make sense...

[Daisy]

I have to say. Is that Dany's plan, really? 
"I don't want to put you in chains. but if you don't follow me, I'll burn you alive."

like. gee. I'd rather be in chains, kthnxbye. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The looks on the two goldcloaks' faces when they tried that fermented crab was priceless.

Love how Cersei's concern was Bronn "betraying" Jaime by setting up a meeting with Tyrion. Never mind that Bronn just saved Jaime's stupid ass from being barbecued by a dragon yesterday.

I couldn't help but laughing at the expression on Dany's face as the boat left Dragonstone: "BOTH of my (non) boyfriends are leaving me!"

Last week Missandei made a compelling argument about why she and the others follow Dany - they believe in her and they chose her as their queen. But this week Dany's attitude is "Hey, guys! I know we didn't really have a chance to talk before I burnt a bunch of your friends and family members to a crisp, but I'm really not THAT bad. By the wa, if you don't switch allegiances and join me, YOU DIE." I understand that she doesn't want "men in chains" since she's supposed to be the breaker of chains (hey, it's one of her five million titles) but that means she is no longer the benevolent bestower of freedom who she claims to be. She gave the unsullied the choice to follow her. They were free not to follow her. But the choice she's giving all of the Lannister bannerman is not the same. Their choice is join or die.

At the same time, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for Tyrion and Varys clutching their pearls about Dany killing people. This is war. Did they really think that there would be a peaceful and bloodless coup? I'm not saying that Dany should fry everyone in her path extra crispy, but at the same time it seems a bit naive for Tyrion and Varys to think that no one would die in the quest for the throne. They're acting like this is a shock.

[KaleyFirefly]

Jon didn't seem that happy to find out Bran & Arya are alive!

LF outsmarted Arya!

Jon patted Drogon on the head!

I liked when Gendry had the longer hair, but he is still hot! And with a big hammer!

We finally have confirmation that Jon Snow's parents were married. Lyanna Stark was not carried off against her will. I'm happy about that. I wish Sam had asked Gilly for a bit more info there, but I guess he still has that book.

Sam finally left the Citadel! I hope he picked the right books to steal. I wonder how sad he will be about his father & brother. I know he never got along with his father.

Cersei's pregnant? Ugh.

I'm glad Jamie finally got around to mentioning that Olenna killed Joffrey.

Gendry smacks the guards with his hammer….Tyrion: "He'll do."

I liked Tormund asking after Brienne. Still shipping them!

I loved when Dany hugged Jorah! The poor guy, he's been through so much, it made his day.

Operation Kidnap White Walker: all those guys better make it back alive! I don't want any of them to die!

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The looks on the two goldcloaks' faces when they tried that fermented crab was priceless.

Love how Cersei's concern was Bronn "betraying" Jaime by setting up a meeting with Tyrion. Never mind that Bronn just saved Jaime's stupid ass from being barbecued by a dragon yesterday.

I couldn't help but laughing at the expression on Dany's face as the boat left Dragonstone: "BOTH of my (non) boyfriends are leaving me!"

Last week Missandei made a compelling argument about why she and the others follow Dany - they believe in her and they chose her as their queen. But this week Dany's attitude is "Hey, guys! I know we didn't really have a chance to talk before I burnt a bunch of your friends and family members to a crisp, but I'm really not THAT bad. By the wa, if you don't switch allegiances and join me, YOU DIE." I understand that she doesn't want "men in chains" since she's supposed to be the breaker of chains (hey, it's one of her five million titles) but that means she is no longer the benevolent bestower of freedom who she claims to be. She gave the unsullied the choice to follow her. They were free not to follow her. But the choice she's giving all of the Lannister bannerman is not the same. Their choice is join or die.

At the same time, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for Tyrion and Varys clutching their pearls about Dany killing people. This is war. Did they really think that there would be a peaceful and bloodless coup? I'm not saying that Dany should fry everyone in her path extra crispy, but at the same time it seems a bit naive for Tyrion and Varys to think that no one would die in the quest for the throne. They're acting like this is a shock.

That was my thought. Like come on. Show the Lannisters (and everyone else) why you are the better choice. but it was like. Well. Imm gonna burn you now since you don't choose me. 

With Tyrion and Varys... I wonder if it's just the 'quickness' of the "i'm going to burn you." is coming. this isn't the first time they've seen Drogon destroy things with fire (Mereen) but tis time seems.. different. it's hard to articulate for me - so I don't blame Tyrion and Varys for feeling kind of apprehensive. 

Right now, Dany is playing a great game of Screw, Marry, Kill. 
She wants to kill Cersei, Marry Jorah, and Screw Jon's brains out lololol

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

We finally have confirmation that Jon Snow's parents were married. Lyanna Stark was not carried off against her will. I'm happy about that.

Well, to be fair, all we know is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lyanna went willingly or that she liked Rhaegar. Sansa was married to Ramsay and we know that she did not want to marry him and he raped her repeatedly. Even if Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, that doesn't mean the feeling was mutual.

I've seen enough unhappy marriages on this show and tv in general that I would love to see a flashback of Lyanna and Rhaegar happily in love, but I'd say the chances of that are 50/50.

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Last week Missandei made a compelling argument about why she and the others follow Dany - they believe in her and they chose her as their queen. But this week Dany's attitude is "Hey, guys! I know we didn't really have a chance to talk before I burnt a bunch of your friends and family members to a crisp, but I'm really not THAT bad. By the wa, if you don't switch allegiances and join me, YOU DIE." I understand that she doesn't want "men in chains" since she's supposed to be the breaker of chains (hey, it's one of her five million titles) but that means she is no longer the benevolent bestower of freedom who she claims to be. She gave the unsullied the choice to follow her. They were free not to follow her. But the choice she's giving all of the Lannister bannerman is not the same. Their choice is join or die.

Unlike the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and the slaves that Dany freed, the Lannister bannermen are her subjects in the kingdom that she claims. The Lannisters refused Dany's call to pledge loyalty to her at Dragonstone. Instead they rebelled, sided with Cersei, took up arms, and killed her allies. They were fortunate to get the second chance to bend the knee and that they were not immediately burnt to a crisp.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[KaleyFirefly]

27 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Well, to be fair, all we know is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lyanna went willingly or that she liked Rhaegar. Sansa was married to Ramsay and we know that she did not want to marry him and he raped her repeatedly. Even if Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, that doesn't mean the feeling was mutual.

I've seen enough unhappy marriages on this show and tv in general that I would love to see a flashback of Lyanna and Rhaegar happily in love, but I'd say the chances of that are 50/50.

Oh, that's true :-(  I guess I just wanted to believe that they were in love. Rhaegar dumping his wife & kids like that still sucks though.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The looks on the two goldcloaks' faces when they tried that fermented crab was priceless.

And anyone who has ever picked up a dead crab at the seashore immediately got smell-a-vision whether it was intended or not.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Love how Cersei's concern was Bronn "betraying" Jaime by setting up a meeting with Tyrion. Never mind that Bronn just saved Jaime's stupid ass from being barbecued by a dragon yesterday

Speaking of Bronn, is he still alive?  I don't recall seeing him after the meeting and when Cersei said she knew everything that happens at KL, I wonder if she decided Bronn was part of Jaimie's last betrayal of her?

[CletusMusashi]

I figure if Gendry's hammer hadn't killed those guards, eating old whorehouse crabs out of random boats probably would have.

And what was up with "Duhhh... weren't we looking for a dwarf with a scar?" His name's Tyrion Fucking Lannister, guys. It was the biggest news on the continent quite recently. That was like not quite remembering O.J. Simpson.

Edited August 15, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[The Kings Foot]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Well, to be fair, all we know is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lyanna went willingly or that she liked Rhaegar. Sansa was married to Ramsay and we know that she did not want to marry him and he raped her repeatedly. Even if Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, that doesn't mean the feeling was mutual.

I've seen enough unhappy marriages on this show and tv in general that I would love to see a flashback of Lyanna and Rhaegar happily in love, but I'd say the chances of that are 50/50.

Not to mention the unfortunate implication that you can anull your marriage and bastardize your children without your wife's consent. 

[The Kings Foot]

10 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

They are not mutually exclusive desires... Sansa although she has grown and matured in many ways... still would have some of the old Sansa inside her.

Perhaps Arya was overly judgmental but why would the writers raise this point, if it meant nothing?

Same reason they're showing Dany to be just another tyrant? Just one with good press. 

 

Precisely what good has Dany done for Westeros? 

Edited August 14, 2017 by The Kings Foot

[SoothingDave]

10 hours ago, Couver said:

 

Nice little reveal about Rhegar there with Gilly. I'm surprised Sam missed it. I hope LF isn't the one who finds that scroll.

What she said has meaning to us, the audience.  Sam doesn't know anything about the visions Bran had that revealed who Jon's mother is.

[Juliegirlj]

Cersai's warning to Jaime to not betray her again makes me think the Kingslayer will eventually become the Queenslayer..... Seeing a wight and possibly losing another child may send Cersai into madness. 

I am shipping Arya and Gendry so much. 

[ShannaB]

11 hours ago, Popples said:

 

Tormund is still all about "the big woman". He better make it!

I saw a clip of Gwendoline Christie (probably from Comic Con) where she was asked if her character would be different this Season (or something like that) and GC responded that Brienne would be physical in a different way.  Of course my mind went there LOL.

11 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

So is Cersei's plan now to accept the armistice and strike them in their back? Sounds about right. 

 

Well of course!

I think Cersei is faking the pregnancy but a poster (sorry, forgot who) mentioned that Qyburn asked Cersei ' if she wanted something for it', which means that she could be pregnant.  Why? And why now?  Pregnant or not, Cersei is a very calculating and seems to be 3 steps ahead of everyone so she has plans with only 7 eps left.  Wow!! I have to sit back and think about this left turn and nurse a headache.

[SoothingDave]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Tyrion wasn't clutching his pearls over Gendry bashing in the heads of those two gold cloaks. I guess their lives weren't as important as the Tarlys.

The Tarlys were no threat to Tyrion at that point, and could have been useful allies if spared.

The Goldcloaks were a threat and had no usefulness.  

[SoothingDave]

Name a few.  Remember you're dealing with two guards armed with swords versus an old man, a dwarf, and a blacksmith.  

What do you think happens if they take Tyrion to Cersei?  This was definitely a situation where violence was merited.

And, for the show itself, it demonstrates that Gendry can swing a hammer to effect.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, Daisy said:

it was the note Sansa wrote in season 1-2 telling Robb to bend the knee. 

Ah, that made a lot of sense. It's a diversion - since there is a far worse raven message implicating Littlefinger, isn't there? Stir up shit so they don't go looking for yours.

12 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

Not the adrenaline rush of last week, but next week looks like it might be that intense. And hey, Jon's not a bastard after all, not that anyone will ever know that unless Gilly  brought that book with her.

There are only two episodes to go, so I'm betting she did.

12 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Aw, no moment of silence for Sam's family?

Nope. All I thought was "huh, now Sam's Lord Tarly" - which under the usual rules wouldn't happen, as so many have pointed out. On the other hand, I think the rule book is changing.

12 hours ago, Popples said:

GENDRY! He should have also mentioned he knew Arya. I was hoping they would stop at Winterfell for a reunion. I'm not sure which one I'd look forward to more, Jon/Arya or Arya/Gendry.

I don't really remember - it's been so long. Did he know Arya was a Stark. She was hiding her identity, same as he was. But I don't remember how detailed they got when they discovered she was a girl.

12 hours ago, Haiti D said:

They should have kept Gilly illiterate.  I'm not trying to be sexist but her literacy happened very quickly.

Not sure what literacy has to do with gender. But since their child is a toddler now, instead of a babe in arms, it's not all that quick.

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Sam is finally tired of this Maester shit, grabs a bunch of books, and bails with Gilly.  Hope he reunites with Jon, but I wonder how he will take what happen to his family.  I doubt he'll shed a tear about Randyll, but it seemed like he and Dickon were on decent terms.  Meanwhile, Gilly of all people drops a huge bombshell that Rhaeger got an annulment and legally married Lyanna, so Jon might actually have legal claim to the throne, now?  That is really going to piss Dany off, or it might make the thing between them get even hotter.  Or perhaps both.

Operation Kidnap White Walker certainly is stacked: Jon, Gendry, Jorah, Tormund, The Hound, and the rest of the Brotherhood of Banners.  On one hand, the interaction between that group should be epic (they better have some snark off between Tormund and The Hound), but on the other hand, I have a bad feeling that at least one or two of these guys won't be making it back.

Looks like there are three heirs in play now - two legit, Jon and Dany, and Gendry who, though illegitimate, is the last living offspring of Robert Baratheon, the last legitimate king. (since Joffrey was not). Given there are three dragons, it seems pretty a pretty interesting coincidence.

11 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

They are not mutually exclusive desires... Sansa although she has grown and matured in many ways... still would have some of the old Sansa inside her.

Perhaps Arya was overly judgmental but why would the writers raise this point, if it meant nothing?

To show that neither of them really know each other as they currently are, they haven't shared their experiences, so they fall back on old views of each other and make their judgments based on the people they used to know and not the ones they've been forced to become? IMO, that's a pretty standard family dynamic (albeit without the dire circumstances that forged them into the assassin and stateswoman)

10 hours ago, Katalina said:

It's the difference between two anonymous threatening guards, and two members of a ruling family who could potentially be allies.

And the difference between his own skin and others. If the guards hadn't been taken care of, he'd have been captured and Cersei would have exacted a terrible revenge on him.

 

10 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I'm kind of surprised Dany let Jorah go with Jon, especially considering Tyrion is proving to be useless as a military strategist. 

My favorite part of the episode was the scene at Eastwatch. Having Jon, Jorah, Tormund, Beric, Thoros, Gendry and the Hound all in one place was just all kinds of awesome. The only sad part is, I don't think all of them will make it back alive.

As Jon said, it wasn't her decision to make. 

I watched them go and thought "there they go, the semi-magnificent seven"

9 hours ago, TigerTimes said:

I think Arya is the politically astute Stark. Arya was just saying that Sansa does not want to rock the boat because Sansa would be scared if the Lords didn't support her while Jon is away. But I think Sansa is also scared to lose power because of how Joffrey and Ramsey abused her; she doesn't want to relive the nightmare of being controlled or without certainty that she won't be hurt. Arya is a strong leader, and I think will prove to be a stronger leader than Sansa.

Sansa is damaged because of what Joffrey and Ramses did to her. She isn't strong like Arya, and she isn't patient and noble like Jon. She has been dealt a bad set of cards, and it's hard for a person to come back after such harsh experiences, but she will continue to have problems unless she starts to control the Lords who are speaking badly about Jon behind his back and will eventually distrust Sansa unless she takes control.

She survived, she's not shattered (like Theon), and is not only standing on her own feet, but essentially ruling. So I'd say Sansa is immensely strong. As strong as anyone on the show, with or without dragons and knives. 

7 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Normally I'd be inclined to think that Cersei is faking her pregnancy, but Qyburn can be heard offering her something for her condition.

I think she probably is pregnant, but Qyburn could be offering something to alleviate menopausal symptoms.

 

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Well, to be fair, all we know is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lyanna went willingly or that she liked Rhaegar. Sansa was married to Ramsay and we know that she did not want to marry him and he raped her repeatedly. Even if Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, that doesn't mean the feeling was mutual.

Thank you! I've never thought that the scene we saw through Bram's eyes showed that they were in love. I suppose the only real hint at that is that Ned raised Jon, though being the upright moralist that he was, he'd likely have done that in any case, and claiming Jon as his own to alleviate the "shame" of Lyanna's supposed rape.

[BitterApple]

I would argue that Sansa is better at politics than either Arya or Jon. We've seen Jon lose the room several times during meetings until ten year-old Lyanna stepped in and got everyone in line. He was warned that Ramsay would try to trap him, but fell for it anyways. Arya's strategy of "cross me and I'll kill you" gets the message across in the short term, but isn't a wise long-term plan, especially when you need allies willing to fight for your cause. 

I don't think Sansa is perfect but she's not an unqualified dolt either. 

[One Tough Cookie]

12 hours ago, Popples said:

I forgot about that. Hopefully, it will be "The Change". That might wipe the perma-smirk from her face.

In the eyes of the nobility, that would have been a smart match. I'm kind of hoping she gets with Pod.

Me too.  He would treat her like a goddess and help her heal from Ramsey.

Since Sam and Gilly are fave of mine, I applauded Randal and Fancy Lads incineration.

Cirecei will probably have a miscarriage if indeed she actually is pregnant

JORAH JORAH JORAH

Edited August 14, 2017 by One Tough Cookie

[AzureOwl]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, a secret marriage whose only proof is a dusty old scroll that's apparently been ignored all this time? 

I think that was the point of all the stuff Gilly mentioned before that part.

We are meant to assume that High Septon Maynard’s writings are so mind-numbingly boring that no Maester has ever bothered to read past the detailed accounts of Maynard’s bowel movements and gotten to the good shit... pun very much intended.

[SoothingDave]

14 minutes ago, doram said:

Come on. Do I need to quote The Terminator? 

Aim for the knee-caps.

And maybe their cries cause more guards to come.

 

13 minutes ago, doram said:

(And none of that excuses Tyrion's lack of reaction to their deaths, which to me, is the more pertinent problem).

He's seen people die before.  This was necessary.  I don't see the problem.  He was on a raid in enemy territory, basically. 

Not the same at all as showing mercy to the vanquished in order to look good to potential allies.

[One Tough Cookie]

11 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Or ....if we are in the times of Henry VII to Henry VIII, Cersei could be Catherine of Aragon who thought she was pregnant with a boy for VIII, and wasn't even though it appeared to be a pregnancy but at 12 months people started wondering what was wrong.

I believe you are referring to Mary Tudor, a/k/a Bloody  Mary for her penchant for burning Protestants.  She was Henry and Catherine's daughter.

[Lunata]

12 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

RIP, Sam's hot brother

That's actor Tom Hopper who played the character 'Billy Bones' in the series Black Sails

[BitterApple]

Regarding Dany and the Tarlys, I don't think she had much choice. Not following through on a threat would make her look weak, and she only killed them as a last resort after giving them three chances to bend the knee. Tarly Sr's ego and foolish pride were what got him and his son killed. Even when Dany said "dracarys" it was done half-heartedly, like she wasn't getting any pleasure out of it, but had no alternative. 

[Giselle]

I think old Cersei is going through the change and the baby factory is shutting down. She thinks she's got a bun in the oven not realizing that the fire has permanently gone out. That dough isn't gonna rise and bake for 9 months.

Looking forward to seeing her realization and waiting for her to have her first hot flash and I'm not talking dragons.

Oh that it comes to pass!

Edited August 14, 2017 by Giselle

[Lunata]

18 minutes ago, doram said:

Yeah but I think the point is that the proof of the annulment is just a dusty piece of paper that no one can back up. Just like Robert Baratheon's will (that Cersei tore up).

Gilly was reading the recordings of High Septon Maynard–the highest official in the Faith of the Seven, so those were not the writings of a maester, which is a monumental difference–she asked Sam what “annulment” means. “It’s when a man sets aside his lawful wife,” Sam answered. Only a septon could do that, and for a royal wedding it seems unlikely anyone but the High Septon could. Plus, the Targaryens followed the Faith of the Seven (minus the whole incest thing). Which means Rhaegar got the highest priest in the land to put aside his marriage to Elia Martell. I hope Gilly took that book with her when they left because that would be indisputable proof that Jon Snow is the legal heir to the Iron Throne.

[candall]

I snickered at Bronn and Jamie holding their breath until Drogon & Co. had moved on, but apparently they surfaced "downstream."  I've been laughing all week about the "ankle deep------>Marianna fucking trench" screenshot.  That was a really special body of water.

 

Why dracarys the Tarlys?  Everyone there already had front row seats for death by incineration.  Drogon could have had a nice snack with Randall Tarly and maybe we could have still kept Dickon.  Excellent CGI with Jon petting Drogon, btw.  I could almost feel that velvety nose.

 

The Citadel seriously needs some Dewey Decimal.  What, Sam just crossed his fingers, pulled a few random tomes and scuttled off?  The maesters were pretty worthless, which was disappointing; good riddance.

 

Quite masterful the way they gathered together that crew at the end--so much old history set aside for a common cause.  Not sure what The Brotherhood thought they were going to accomplish going NOTW, but whatever.  The Hound has been one of my favorites for a long time, so I'm happy he's back in play.

But for heaven's sake, men:  no one ever told you all the heat goes out the top of your head??

[Katalina]

Quote

and claiming Jon as his own to alleviate the "shame" of Lyanna's supposed rape.

I thought Ned hid Jon's identity to keep Jon safe from being killed.

I realize I'm bugged by something from the Gendry-hammering-guards scene: Davos didn't go back to retrieve his gold and a couple of good swords.

FWIW, I don't think Cersei's actually pregnant---she could be lying to Qyburn to lend credence to her claim.

[CeeBeeGee]

4 hours ago, Daisy said:

GRRM takes a lot from history, so I am wondering if this is a nod to Henry/Katherine of Aragon/Anne Boleyn. annul/divorce the first marriage (thus, bastardizing Elia and his previous two children - making me wonder if Elia even knew if her marriage was annulled. - I'm leaning towards no, because she got Mountain'ed - where if I think she knew, she would have taken her children to Dorne - where bastards are respected and still held in a good light). 
 

2

But Henry HAD to do something--he had no male heir and Katherine was getting too old to bear children. Rhaegar had a prince, and a younger brother, there was no need to put Elia and her children aside. Being able to annul marriages on a whim is a terrible precedent to set, and very poor behavior on Rhaegar's part.

 

3 hours ago, doram said:

Tyrion wasn't clutching his pearls over Gendry bashing in the heads of those two gold cloaks. I guess their lives weren't as important as the Tarlys.

Well, if they hadn't been dealt with, Tyrion almost certainly would've been killed. Can't blame him for not wanting to die for two strangers.

The Tarlys are another matter. Tyrion is thinking about the optics--having father and son burned alive brings up very uncomfortable parallels to Aerys roasting alive Ned's father and older brother. I have zero problem with Daenerys telling the newly vanquished to bend the knee or die--leaving aside the obvious fact that Dany will be better than Cersei based on her past choices*--she really doesn't have much of a choice. This is war in a feudal world, and this is pretty much how wars of conquest are fought. Submit or die. If she doesn't back up her rule with strength they won't respect her, especially as a woman in this patriarchal culture. Furthermore if she lets them walk away, she is risking her own victory. "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die."  My only problem was that she should've had the Dothraki dispatch the Tarlys--as I said, having them burned alive looks bad.

 

Am a little sad for Dickon--he seemed a decent sort and their holding hands together at the end was sweet. But am happy to see Lord Permascowl and his "flexible allegiances" go.  Oh, and as he was saying "well, Cersei was born at Westeros" I was yelling at my TV "SO WAS DAENERYS!" What an idiot, you just abandoned your family after abandoning your allegiance to House Tyrell. You don't have any honor, you're just pissed that a woman beat your ass on the field of battle. (Shades of Hall's Chronicle, where the defeated Yorkists shade Margaret of Anjou by snidely besmirching her femininity.)

 

*Hates slavery and has set all the slaves free, hates the pointless brutality of the fighting pits in Mereen and wanted to stop that, tried to help the Lhazareens in S1, etc.

 

32 minutes ago, ShannaB said:

 

I think Cersei is faking the pregnancy but a poster (sorry, forgot who) mentioned that Qyburn asked Cersei ' if she wanted something for it', which means that she could be pregnant.  Why? And why now?  Pregnant or not, Cersei is a very calculating and seems to be 3 steps ahead of everyone so she has plans with only 7 eps left.  Wow!! I have to sit back and think about this left turn and nurse a headache.

 

Or she could've been lying to Qyburn. It's not like they have EPTs in Westeros. The only evidence they would have for a pregnancy at this stage is what she tells them (i.e., they wouldn't be able to verify a pregnancy this early by physical examination, it all rests on her personal testimony). She could've said anything.

[One Tough Cookie]

5 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

liked when Gendry had the longer hair, but he is still hot! And with a big hammer!

ooh--it that what we're calling it now? ;)

[Jersey Guy 87]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Last week Missandei made a compelling argument about why she and the others follow Dany - they believe in her and they chose her as their queen. But this week Dany's attitude is "Hey, guys! I know we didn't really have a chance to talk before I burnt a bunch of your friends and family members to a crisp, but I'm really not THAT bad. By the wa, if you don't switch allegiances and join me, YOU DIE." I understand that she doesn't want "men in chains" since she's supposed to be the breaker of chains (hey, it's one of her five million titles) but that means she is no longer the benevolent bestower of freedom who she claims to be. She gave the unsullied the choice to follow her. They were free not to follow her. But the choice she's giving all of the Lannister bannerman is not the same. Their choice is join or die.

 

 

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Unlike the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and the slaves that Dany freed, the Lannister bannermen are her subjects in the kingdom that she claims. The Lannister refused Dany's call to pledge loyalty to her at Dragonstone. Instead they rebelled, sided with Cersei, took up arms, and killing her allies. They were fortunate to get the second chance to bend the knee and that they were not immediately burnt to a crisp.

I think this is the difference between Dany's treatment of the Lannister bannermen and the unsullied.  The unsullied were not her enemy, the Lannister bannermen were (after all, they just fought a battle against her and her troops).  Was she supposed to give them the choice of pledge allegiance to me or go back to Cersei?  Of course not. 

3 hours ago, doram said:

Tyrion wasn't clutching his pearls over Gendry bashing in the heads of those two gold cloaks. I guess their lives weren't as important as the Tarlys.

Tyrion would likely have been killed or their mission compromised had Gendry not killed the gold cloaks.  Although I think he should have understood Dany's position with the Lannister bannermen.

[CeeBeeGee]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Henry didn't have to do anything. He had already declared Mary his heir and Princess of Wales. He went through 8 wives, a separation from the Church and dozens of religious wars just for that to happen - Mary was crowned Queen when he died - and for the Throne to pass to his sister's line. 

(But I get your point.)

(just bitching because Harry 8 was a dick).

I'm no fan either--the execution of Countess Salisbury was absolutely horrifying. Oh, I could go on and on about Henry--what a tragic loss of potential. Started off so talented and intelligent, and ended up a monster.

Anyway, yes, he'd declared Mary Princess of Wales but he still really, REALLY wanted that male heir. There had never been a Queen Regnant up to that point, unless you count Matilda.  (The irony of course, is that Elizabeth was a far better ruler than Edward--not that he had much time--OR Henry.)

*Also--6 wives, and Edward assumed the throne after Henry died. Mary came after Edward.

[Giselle]

3 minutes ago, Katalina said:

I thought Ned hid Jon's identity to keep Jon safe from being killed.

I realize I'm bugged by something from the Gendry-hammering-guards scene: Davos didn't go back to retrieve his gold and a couple of good swords.

FWIW, I don't think Cersei's actually pregnant---she could be lying to Qyburn to lend credence to her claim.

While I don't understand leaving the gold, who needs two extra swords when you've got dragons and dragon glass not to mentioned Unsullied and Dothraki and you're sailing away with a bladesmith  . 

[Popples]

52 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't really remember - it's been so long. Did he know Arya was a Stark. She was hiding her identity, same as he was. But I don't remember how detailed they got when they discovered she was a girl

Yeah, she told him, about 45 seconds in.

[Couver]

44 minutes ago, doram said:

Well isn't it convenient that their death cries didn't cause more guards to come? 

There is such a thing as bound and gagged. Plus they were guards on patrol - not a platoon of soldiers. There weren't more guards coming.

He wasn't on a raid, he was on an infiltration mission. The whole point was to get in and out without leaving footprints - like dead gold cloaks on the shore.

And seeing people die people doesn't - or shouldn't make him cold-blooded.

 

Dany showed mercy when she didn't summarily execute her captives, but instead gave them repeated chances to live. The fact alone that so many men had survived the battle showed that they were given a chance to surrender and she hadn't waged war with a "take no prisoners" attitude. Then she gave them a chance to kneel, and even let her dragon try to "persuade" them. Dickon Tarly literally volunteered himself to be killed. Randyll was an idiot. 

 

Again, Tyrion wrung his hands over defeated soldiers being executed by their own choosing, but who gave those 2 gold cloaks a choice? Did Gendry ask "Walk away or I'll bash in your brains" before he did so?

Plot-convenient empathy or Tyrion's a hypocrite. I don't know which is worse.

Thank you for articulating my issues with Tyrion in this episode and to a lesser extent Varys. Their reactions seem so hypocritical and delusional. They have seen Dany conquer before and have had no issues with how she has done it. Why were they fine with the slavers being killed by the Unsullied and the slaver ships burned (with people on them) but are now stunned that she has to do the same thing to get people in line? They seem elitist now because they don't want any Westerosi nobles to be killed. I guess they are for the 1% in Westeros? How did they think she would conquer this continent? Even if Tommen were still on the throne there is no way the Tyrells, Lannisters, etc would have surrendered when she arrived. They would have gathered their armies and faced her.

I'm not sure if the show is trying to portray Dany as a tyrant or not but given the polarizing view fans are taking I guess they could be? Which makes me wonder why wasn't Ned a tyrant then or Robb? Robb eventually paid for beheading someone but the show framed what he did as a bad war time move not him being unreasonable. For that matter what does that make Jon? A man who killed a 10 year old boy for revenge for himself and his girlfriend who got that boy's family killed. Jon gets to have a lot of moral high ground despite his similar execution history to Dany's. I was glad Dany asked him how many people died retaking Winterfell. Should Jon have let Ramsay live so he didn't wipe out another 'great house'? I guess so according to Tyrion and Varys at least the answer would be yes.

And Dany's father killed people with wild fire in the throne room as a spectacle. Not dragon fire during war time which from what we saw last night is quick and efficient. The only people we have seen in show use wild fire to kill are Cersei (who used it on civilians) and Tyrion. I was glad Davos reminded him of that even if it was in a kindhearted way. When Dany turns Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion on the general population of Westros then I'll consider her a tyrant. But not for dispatching soldiers who are currently engaged in war with her.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Couver

[Daisy]

39 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

But Henry HAD to do something--he had no male heir and Katherine was getting too old to bear children. Rhaegar had a prince, and a younger brother, there was no need to put Elia and her children aside. Being able to annul marriages on a whim is a terrible precedent to set, and very poor behavior on Rhaegar's part.

I don't read the books, or anything, but i have watched a lot of theories etc - so I have something that can 'answer' that part - but i don't know if it's the books or whatever. but from what i watched in these theory videos - it did make sense to do why Rhaegar did what he did - on the first part. (sorry for the vagueness. I don't remember everything that happens on the show. and I'm not sure if this aspect happened - so i don't want to be all 'book-talky" in the non book talk and get people mad . 

But - this is why i am leaning towards Rhaegar (and Lyanna) actually 'loved' each other. from what we got from Selmy etc, he was a nice guy. I don't see (from what we know) Rhaegar deciding to just shunt Elia off if Lyanna didn't have any feelings. He was, of course, the prince. he could have kidnapped her, raped her, and left her alone if it was just about the conquest.  the fact that he went full on annulment and second marriage..Lyanna had to be a willing participant (for the most part)

[Giselle]

9 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

Don't jump to conclusion guys, there may have actually been a Prince Ragger. Need to wait for confirmation...

 

Overall, this episode felt off. I feel like this was three episodes of material packed into 57 minutes or so. The added budget spread over three fewer episodes better deliver in the next two episodes. 

 

Arya and Sansa still not getting along I can buy. Arya being fiercely loyal to Jon is no surprise either. Littlefinger playing the two against each other makes little sense for him, but he's a dead man walking at this point, so whatevs.

 

Cersei preggers? Yeah right. Liar. I guess Jaime is now forced to stick with her till the end now, or is he? 

 

Randyl deserved it. Should have saved his son and bent the damn knee. And last I checked, Dragonstone is part of Westeros, and Dany was born there. 

 

Speaking of Dany, she is clearly smitten with Jon. Her child liking him was the clincher. Can't wait to see them bone. Hopefully Kit and Emilia were game enough to strip it all off. If I recall Kit got out of the cave scene nudity in season 3 because of a broken ankle. Man up and show your kit, Kit!

 

Varys has been made as useless as Littlefinger. What exactly does he bring to the table anymore if he doesn't have his little birds? Someone for Tyrion to talk to, I guess.

 

Gendry and Jon are fast friends. Disappointed Gendry didn't mention Arya. Just like I was disappointed Jon never brought up his relationship with Maester Aemon to Dany. Come on, writers!

 

This wight hunt seems rather suicidal. Nice recommendation Tyrion. If only you knew how batshit crazy your sister is. Oh wait, you do! Like a wight is going to deter her? And now that team Dany is all-aboard the 'let's defeat the Night King or we're all going to fucking die' train, why is Dany not going on this wight hunt to begin with? A dragon or three would seem to be useful. 

 

Two episodes left until the long night. It's going to be tough to top last season's final two, and I'm not expecting them to. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

I think Varys still has a few nests of little birds in strategic places. They just aren't peeping anything of importance yet.

If she ever sees one I think Cersei is BSC enough to briefly entertain the idea of being able to use the White Walkers to secure her throne. Sir Gregor's remains remain useful to her.

[Dobian]

The whole capture a white walker plan makes no sense.  Just fly a dragon up there, snatch a handful of them in it's big claws and roast a few hundred in a flaming swath for good measure before flying home.  Duh. 

Bronn and Jamie surface a half a mile from where they fell in the water.  Aquaman must have helped them.

 

8 hours ago, Chinspinner said:

My thoughts as I watched: -

2)      Daenerys’ turn to the dark side continues. I find all the “bend the knee [or death]” scenes a little too on the nose for my liking, it lacks subtlety. She is becoming a tyrant – we get it! This is not helped by the fact that all the nuances to her character have dried up, and she is becoming one-dimensional, or worse; inconsistent.

She's not turning to the dark side and she's not a tyrant.  She gave the Tarlys a choice and they made it.  This is the middle ages in Westeros, and Varys and Tyrion's 21st century politically correct counsel doesn't cut it when a show of force is necessary.  This display of power was for the benefit of captured soldiers to get them in line, it's not like she's doing this to civilians and she doesn't want to do this to civilians.

[Traveller519]

Eastwatch in the Credits! EASTWATCH IN THE CREDITS! Not just relegated to being part of "The Wall". Okay that made me unnaturally excited.

.

What I loved about the Sam and Gilly scene is that it wasn't a Whammy "A-ha" scene like many other shows would have done. Sam didn't perk-up with a "Wait, what did you say? Who's Marriage?" It was more true to how people normally act when they're frustrated and angry with something (work) and trying to placate their partner who is innocent of all those feelings with some "active listening." I'm sure we'll get back to the legitimized talk soon enough.

With regards to Sam's other work. Jorah was looking very put-together. No more, quasi-Dothraki attire for him. He's got a tight haircut and tailored clothes. Add-in 4 years-on Gendry and that is one good looking ranging party.

[Chinspinner]

Just now, Dobian said:

The whole capture a white walker plan makes no sense.  Just fly a dragon up there, snatch a handful of them in it's big claws and roast a few hundred in a flaming swath for good measure before flying home.  Duh. 

Bronn and Jamie surface a half a mile from where they fell in the water.  Aquaman must have helped them.

 

She's not turning to the dark side and she's not a tyrant.  She gave the Tarlys a choice and they made it.  This is the middle ages in Westeros, and Varys and Tyrion's 21st century politically correct counsel doesn't cut it when a show of force is necessary.  This display of power was for the benefit of captured soldiers to get them in line, it's not like she's doing this to civilians and she doesn't want to do this to civilians.

No. The screen writers have clearly shown characters previously set up as moral (Tyrion and Varys), disapproving of her actions. This is intentional. It is to indicate to the viewer that her actions are becoming increasingly erratic and contentious. This is the route the writers are taking with her character (whether you can justify her actions or not). 

[Dobian]

1 minute ago, Chinspinner said:

No. The screen writers have clearly shown characters previously set up as moral (Tyrion and Varys), disapproving of her actions. This is intentional. It is to indicate to the viewer that her actions are becoming increasingly erratic and contentious. This is the route the writers are taking with her character (whether you can justify her actions or not). 

There was nothing erratic or contentious about her actions.  She is the queen, she has the last word.  The writers have clearly  shown this queen to be consistently given bad and potentially disastrous counsel, by Tyrion especially.  It was time for her to be a leader and make a decision on her own, not have that decision made for her.  To do otherwise would have made her weak.  Letting the Tarlys live after they openly defied her would have diminished her to her captured enemies.  She wouldn't have looked benevolent, she would have looked spineless.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Regarding Dany and the Tarlys, I don't think she had much choice. Not following through on a threat would make her look weak, and she only killed them as a last resort after giving them three chances to bend the knee. Tarly Sr's ego and foolish pride were what got him and his son killed. Even when Dany said "dracarys" it was done half-heartedly, like she wasn't getting any pleasure out of it, but had no alternative. 

She's the one who set up the choice. So it is on her. But yeah, following through was the only thing she could do - and the only thing I expected her to do if they refused. Half hearted or not, she made her own decision about the tactics she would use. I'm not exactly disagreeing with her tactics, just that "no choice" isn't an excuse for the person who sets the rules.  

1 hour ago, Katalina said:

I thought Ned hid Jon's identity to keep Jon safe from being killed.

That is the story that's been the given for the series so far. The quote was in reference to a possibly different scenario than what's been the accepted "truth" so far.

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Am a little sad for Dickon--he seemed a decent sort and their holding hands together at the end was sweet. But am happy to see Lord Permascowl and his "flexible allegiances" go.  Oh, and as he was saying "well, Cersei was born at Westeros" I was yelling at my TV "SO WAS DAENERYS!" What an idiot, you just abandoned your family after abandoning your allegiance to House Tyrell. You don't have any honor, you're just pissed that a woman beat your ass on the field of battle. (Shades of Hall's Chronicle, where the defeated Yorkists shade Margaret of Anjou by snidely besmirching her femininity.)

So was I. I almost expected that to be said, and him to back down. But I guess we needed a barbecue to convince the soldiers who wouldn't kneel.

1 hour ago, doram said:

Words written on a paper just like the Last Will and Testament of Robert I Baratheon, King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Paper that was held in the Citadel (the highest, and most trusted source of information in the land) for more than 20 years.  Robert's will, had it not been torn up and disposed of by the few who knew it existed, would have been held as true and valid. Of course, the Maester's book (or pages) could also be torn up and disposed of. But that wouldn't make any dramatic sense, not this late in the game.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Chinspinner]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

There was nothing erratic or contentious about her actions.  She is the queen, she has the last word.  The writers have clearly  shown this queen to be consistently given bad and potentially disastrous counsel, by Tyrion especially.  It was time for her to be a leader and make a decision on her own, not have that decision made for her.  To do otherwise would have made her weak.  Letting the Tarlys live after they openly defied her would have diminished her to her captured enemies.  She wouldn't have looked benevolent, she would have looked spineless.

 

9 minutes ago, Chinspinner said:

*snip* (whether you can justify her actions or not). 

The intention of the writer's is clear. 

[BitterApple]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

She's the one who set up the choice. So it is on her. But yeah, following through was the only thing she could do - and the only thing I expected her to do if they refused. Half hearted or not, she made her own decision about the tactics she would use. I'm not exactly disagreeing with her tactics, just that "no choice" isn't an excuse for the person who sets the rules.  

 

What was her alternative though? It's war, and these men were captured enemy soldiers. She can't just let them walk out of there and go back to Cersei. 

[paigow]

Jon can only trust Tormund & Gendry. Jorah is jealous of Jon...Tormund wants to kill Jorah...Gendry wants to kill Thoros & Beric...Jon is wary of The Hound....Now this happy group is going off to Skull Island searching for King Kong to display in Times Square, Kings Landing...

[Clanstarling]

35 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

What was her alternative though? It's war, and these men were captured enemy soldiers. She can't just let them walk out of there and go back to Cersei. 

She could have sent them to Eastwatch in one of her impossibly speedy boats.  Or imprisoned them in Highgarden castle (guarded by one of her dragons, perhaps) until it's over and there aren't any more options for them.  But as I said, I wasn't disagreeing with her tactics as much I don't feel sorry for her. She set the rules, she owns the deed. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Clanstarling