S07.E05: Eastwatch

[GrailKing]

31 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Please refresh my memory, does Gendry know Arry is Arya Stark?

In show yes., can't remember in book.

[Helena Dax]

Again, I like Jon, but I'll be pissed if he ends up on the Iron Throne instead of Daenerys. I don't think the story should take the "she's crazy" route when we already have another crazy queen. 

I disliked the scene with Gendry and Jon. Too forced. But tbh, I never understood the Gendry love.

Oh, Cersei... I do believe she's pregnant. And I'm not sure that showing her a white walker is a good idea. I can totally see her telling Qyburn to build an army of white walkers for her. Anyway, that's the kind of plan that can go wrong in a dozen of different ways. 

I don't think Arya's right about Sansa and I'll be very disappointed if she doesn't understand that LF is trying to play her. And that's the kind of thing google!Bran should be warning about. 

If I'm not wrong, the Lannisters are controlling King's Landing and the Iron Islands, and that's all. Which means, they can't have too many soldiers left. I'm not sure a truce is really necessary. 

[MarySNJ]

35 minutes ago, doram said:

Gendry didn't even like Robert Baratheon. But that's too much continuity for the writers to handle...

Well, he didn't think much of Robert - the drunken lecher, until he learned that Robert was his father. Gendry had no father before that, and Robert was no ordinary drunken lecher. I would imagine that Gendry learning that he's the son of a king increased his interest in learning more about Robert's historic achievements, like the fact that he won a war and used a trademark war hammer. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, GrailKing said:

In show yes., can't remember in book.

Maybe that's why I don't feel Gendry knows that.

I found it weird he seemed to have no problem connecting the dots from Jon Snow to Ned Stark, because it somehow seemed to me he wouldn't know that.

[MarySNJ]

7 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Hmmm.  In looking this up on the Westeros.org wiki, you are spot-on.  After Rhaegar died at the Trident, King Aerys did name Viserys his heir, skipping the infant son of Rhaegar, Aegon.  Aerys then had (now pregnant) Rhaella and the heir-apparent, Viserys, put on Dragonstone for their safety, while Aerys remained in Kings Landing, along with Elia Martell, and her two children (who were later killed by the Mountain) Before Rhaella departed Westeros, fleeing with Viserys and newborn Daenyres, Queen Rhaella actually crowned Viserys.  I am not sure how this would affect the "succession", since Targ kings in the past had skipped their obvious heirs and gone so far as to name legitimized bastards over the first-born son(s).  Targs are strange that way.

Rhaegar (or "Ragger", as Gilly calls him, cracked me up!) obviously was intent upon keeping his secrets safe, hence he took his three best Kings Guard with him to guard a pregnant Lyanna, who was carrying the Prince That Was Promised (in Rhaegar's mind).  There is so much we just don't know, and never forget.....narrators in the POV chapters are often unreliable!!!

I could be mis-remembering but I recall that Rhaella died in childbirth with Dany and never made it off Dragonstone.

I agree that Rhaegar hid his secrets well. He had good reason, in view of his father's paranoia (although Rhaegar was apparently plotting a coup to remove the mad king so the paranoia was actually warranted in that case). After what Aerys did to Rickard and Brandon Stark and their supporters, I'm sure Rhaegar must have feared for Lyanna and the unborn baby.

That being said, when Rhaegar left Lyanna at the TOJ, his other son and daughter were still alive and he apparently thought Aegon was the PTWP (if Dany's visions in the House of the Undying are to be believed). One would have expected that the 3 KG would have remained close to Rhaegar's heir - Aegon, since he was the older son. I think they were conspiring with Rhaegar and after he died, and Aerys, Aegon and Rhaenys were murdered they remained at the TOJ because "Jon" was the rightful King. 

[Constantinople]

In the Season 5 premiere, the wood witch prophesied to young Cersei that she would have 3 children, presumably a reference to Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen.

So I'm not sure where the Cersei pregnancy story line is going.

Cersei did have a fourth child.  Cersei told Cateyn that Cersei's first born was a boy, "black of hair", but he died of a fever.  Apparently that didn't count towards the prophesy
 

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

In show yes., can't remember in book.

Gendry is the first one to find out about it in ACOK. I think it's after the group is attacked by Amory Lorch and Arya yells Winterfell (while Hot Pie yells Hot Pie).

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I believe the book may have been packed up with young Samwell when they headed out.  I also wonder if it's possible that young Samwell would potentially be considered as the reigning Lord Tarly given recent developments?  If so, Randall's ashes would roll if they could.

Poetic justice, that!  I love it.  (Presuming anyone survives the war to come).

[VCRTracking]

[screamin]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Tyrion wasn't upset about the burning. He was upset because she killed them. He suggested Randyll go to the wall and Dickon to the prison. The whole discussion was about Dany taking lives and it's a narrative whip lash that in the same episode, Tyrion caused those 2 gold cloaks to needlessly die and is all chirper about it.

Yes, that really annoyed me. Seems to me Tyrion SAW those goldcloaks and instead of hiding and waiting till they're gone, he sashays right out in front of them and goes to the boat, knowing how very recognizable he is. Unforgivably sloppy of him and the showrunners.

[Blonde Gator]

56 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Please refresh my memory, does Gendry know Arry is Arya Stark?

Absolutely.  He called her "m'lady".  When he decided to remain w/the Brotherhood (before being snatched by Mel), Arya tried to convince him to go on with her..."we could be a family", and Gendry said something like "no, you'd be my lady".   He knew/knows, and chose to keep it to himself, but I don't know whether he knows Jon Snow is (kinda sorta) a Stark.  I can't imagine Arya not mentioning her favorite brother....but who knows if Gendry remembered Jon Snow....besides, that's like Jon Smith, there must be a hundred Jon Snow's in the north.

[nachomama]

I understand they want to get a white walker to prove to Cersei and everyone that a bigger threat is looming. Wouldn't Uncle Stark work for that? I know he wouldn't allow himself back through the wall when he got Bran and Meera through because he felt it would allow the Night king through, but now Night king is coming. How he is able to be a walker and yet not fully turn I don't know but it would be easier to get him back to King's Landing. And yes I immediately thought Cersei would go align herself with the Night King.

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Yes, that really annoyed me. Seems to me Tyrion SAW those goldcloaks and instead of hiding and waiting till they're gone, he sashays right out in front of them and goes to the boat, knowing how very recognizable he is. Unforgivably sloppy of him and the showrunners.

It was a stupid plot point to show us that Gendry knows how to use a warhammer. He doesn't know how to use a sword, and he's apparently not all that good with fighting, but he can use a warhammer.

[AzureOwl]

11 hours ago, mac123x said:

 

The World of Ice and Fire history makes it pretty clear that the Targs followed a "do what I want because I'm the king and I say so" policy of inheritance. 

1.  Aenys I:  "The throne goes to my eldest son".  His brother Maegor responds by usurping the throne.

2.  Jahaerys 1:  "My eldest son just died.  Primogeniture says my heir should be his daughter, but I want it to go to my second son.  The excuse we'll use is that women can't succeed"

3.  Jahaerys 1, a bit later:  "OOOkay, so second son is dead now.  I'm left with either a) great grandson on eldest son's side, or grandson from my second son.  The latter is a grown man, so we'll use the excuse that women can't pass on a claim either to bypass the toddler great-grandson."

4.  Viserys 1:  "Yeah, about that whole 'women can't inherit' thing?  Forget it, I'm naming my daughter Rhaenyra as heir".  Resulting in the Dance of the Dragons.

In all of those cases the situation was more complicated than that and the Targaryens actions led to conflict at best and outright war at worst.  

1. Maegor's usurpation of the throne did not go uncontested and he had to kill Aenys I's son Aegon. Everyone agreed that what Maegor did was unlawfull but nobody was about to object too loudly while he was alive.
2. Jaehaery I's cases is actually a good example of the limitations that the Targaryen kings faced when choosing their own successors.  When his son Prince Aemon died he appointed his second son Baelon as heir instead of Aemon's daughter Rhaenys because unlike Viserys I later on, Jaehaerys knew damn well that the bulk of the lords of the realm would not be OK with woman ruling in her own right.
3. This one is actually completely wrong, as Jaehaerys didn't make this call. After Prince Baelon died Jaehaerys called a Great Council, and it was the assembled lords of the realm who decided to pass over Rhaenys' son in favor of Baelon's son.
4. This one is actually the preeminent example of how the Targaryens couldn't get away with the "do what I want because I'm the king and I say so" policy of inheritance. Viserys I was pretty damn clear about who he wanted to succeed him and the realm went to war before he was even cold on his bed over the issue.

 

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Backstroke!

Actually, Bronn dragged Jamie out . . . all the way on the opposite side of the lake . . . without surfacing first . . . he's a right champion swimmer our Bronn is. . . . didn't even make Jamie drop his golden hand or any of his armor along the way.

We may be able to account for that with the fact that it is not actually a lake, it's a river, the Blackwater Rush.

Remember that before the battle Randyll Tarly came to tell Jaime that he wanted the army to be across the river as soon as possible. I think we are meant to assume that Bronn and Jaime were carried downstream by the current.

 

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

YESSSS give us an Abercrombie series, HBO. Preferably The First Law, but Shattered Sea could be good too. Red Country was a fantastic fantasy Western. He's so good at not taking fantasy too seriously, audiences will love it. He'll probably get picked up at some point after the networks realize fantasy selllz. 

I would pity the poor soul who would have to do an entire show with the prosthesis and makeup necessary to play Glotka.

 

7 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

The Iron Throne seems to go to whoever can take it, anyway. Robert Baratheon had no real claim either, and Cersei certainly doesn't, but they took it anyway. And even further back, Aegon the Conqueror took it (well, created it actually) from whoever was ruling Westeros at the time. 

That's not true, actually. Robert did have a claim to the Iron Throne by blood.

Remember that Robert's grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of King Aegon V and sister to King Jaehaerys II. This made Aerys II and Steffon Baratheon (Robert's father) first cousins, and Robert himself, Rhaegar's second cousin. 

That means that after the Tragedy of Summerhall, Robert, Stannis and Renly were the closest living relatives the royal family had. If some plague had killed Aerys and all his children and grandchildren, Robert would've inherited the Iron Throne as the eldest surviving male descendant of Aegon V.

[VCRTracking]

Arya couldn't figure out the Waif was disguised as the old hag before she stabbed her. I have no problem believing she'd fall for Littlefinger's ploy.

[Blonde Gator]

47 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Using Dragons to melt rocks to make walls and  roads does not equal forging stone. Note Obsidian is not an actual mineral which can be melted.  It is a byproduct which is formed when rock cools rapidly.  So you dont melt obsidian.

Maybe I don't, but dragons surely do melt obsidian.  See Dragonstone.

From the Wiki for Dragonstone (Westeros.org, a GRRM owned site):

Quote

Dragonstone is a grim place.[8] the castle was built using by the Valyrians, using arcane arts,[9] fire, and sorcery.[10][11] With the use of magic, the Valyrians were capable of liquefying stone.[12] The dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes,[13] and as such used their magic to shape the castle to look like multiple dragons.[12][10]

[mrspidey]

Best. Teamup. Ever.

[Blonde Gator]

49 minutes ago, doram said:

Yep, the biggest witnesses to his claim are his brother and his best friend from the Night's Watch. Not exactly objective witnesses. 

We need some Howland Reed.  He's the biggest witness there is.  After Meera was summarily shown the door last week, I have my doubts whether we'll see the Reeds again, but we NEED them.

At the pace this show is winding down, I'm afraid we're going to be left without a few key bits of information, from the Lord of Greywater Watch.  Not only is he the Keeper of Ned Stark's secrets, he's also the only known person in the story to have visited the Isle of Faces, which I believe is the last bastion of the Children of the Forest, who WILL be necessary to win this War for the Dawn.  IMO, the Night King is not trying to kill Bran, he's trying to contact Bran, to get Bran's help to find the CotF.  I think  the WW's motive for the War is to find the CotF, and force them to reverse the magic that made them.  The WW's want to be human again.  Alas, this may be one of the other things (WW motivation) that we shall never discover in the show. 

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, jacehan said:

I like the way you are thinking. If so, hypothesis:

 

Mother - Dany

Maiden - Brienne

Crone - Melisandre

Father - Jaime (?)

Warrior - Jon

Smith - Gendry

Stranger - Arya

I've long wondered this for the book.  On the page I can see it working with these candidates in the mix.

Mother -- Lady Stoneheart or Gilly.  If Gilly is the mother, then I say Lady Stoneheart is the crone.

Maiden -- Arya, Shireen or (last week's thread persuaded me to add Ashara Dayne).   Although I do like very much the poetry of your Brienne selection here.

Father -- Howland Reed

Stranger -- Benjen Stark

Warrior -- possible potential of the Hound, Brienne, Jorah or Jamie

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

This is the exact reason why I would die. 

I'd be facing one down and I'd be going, "Wait, do I take them out with fire or obsidian? Fire? No wait, obsid ...." dead.

An obsidian arrow dipped in flaming oil would work equally on both...and Valerian Steel might work on them both as well; I could be wrong, but I don't recall any wights Jon hit at Hardhome getting back up. In which case those with Valerian Steel weapons are totally going to be the lynchpins of the battles against the Army of the Dead.

24 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

In the Season 5 premiere, the wood witch prophesied to young Cersei that she would have 3 children, presumably a reference to Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen.

So I'm not sure where the Cersei pregnancy story line is going.

Cersei did have a fourth child.  Cersei told Cateyn that Cersei's first born was a boy, "black of hair", but he died of a fever.  Apparently that didn't count towards the prophesy

Personally, I really love the idea that Cersei ends up dying in childbirth of some complication that cuts off her breathing so she chokes to death. Its literally the Younger Brother (of her three children) that kills her. It doesn't count in the prophecy because Cersei won't live to raise the child. Let the final insult to Cersei be that Tyrion as the child's closest living relative, becomes the baby's regent because Jaime has already died in battle (as Jaime's eldest living child the baby would be heir to Lannisport and the Westerlands) and his impregnating her is what ultimately kills Cersei.

Its really just such a Martin-esque thing to do I literally can't see it NOT happening now.

[lazylou]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

 

Much like last season, now that the Stark reunions are out of the way, now for the really forced plot conflict.  In this case, the suddenly psycho Arya is mad that Sansa didn’t immediately start cutting off heads when lords complain about Jon being gone too long (granted, those complaints are ridiculous), and is now being set up to think Sansa is a traitor on the basis of that ludicrous letter from Season 1 that is totally meaningless, and Arya should be smart enough to figure that out.

I do not remember the note from Season One and could not read it.  What did it say, please?  I guess I could rewatch the episode...but..

I guess Samwell's "son" is now heir to the Tarly estates?

[YaddaYadda]

If they don't bring Howland, they'll probably have Jon dig stuff up from the crypts. 

[screamin]

3 hours ago, patchwork said:

Infertility would be my guess.

If she were barren and had been completely incapable of having children, it would be, because having an heir is so critical - but Elia had given Rhaegar 2 healthy heirs, one of them the all-important boy (and nearly lost her life doing so, both times, just BTW). Not to mention ALL women become infertile by menopause before their men do - does that make menopause a justification for annulment because the wife hasn't had ENOUGH  children to suit her lord?

The showrunners seem to be positing a world where men can get annulments from their local priests as easily as parking validations - that the septon can just hand them out without needing to even speak to the lawful wife being set aside, or get permission from his superiors, or notify his Dornish lord that his sister is being dishonored, or register the annulment publically at that world's equivalent of the Vatican, or anywhere except in the same diary he records his shits. This is really conspicuously stupid plot shortcut, on par with Bronn swimming across the river underwater while dragging Jaime in full armor, or Tyrion walking out in front of the goldcloaks unnecessarily just so we can see how good Gendry is with a hammer (or for that matter, Davos introducing Gendry as 'Gendry' to Tyrion and then introducing him as 'Clovis' to Jon - what the fuck does it matter if Jon knows his real first name or not? 'Gendry' doesn't reveal in any way that he's the bastard of King Bob's).

Unfortunately, these sloppy shortcuts seem to be getting a lot more frequent. What we have established to my complete satisfaction is that Rhaegar was a shit and Lyanna kind of the same for going along with it (not to mention she didn't even follow the same religion, so why would she accept Rhaegar is properly divorced by a septon?)

Edited August 14, 2017 by screamin

[Blonde Gator]

45 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Well, he didn't think much of Robert - the drunken lecher, until he learned that Robert was his father. Gendry had no father before that, and Robert was no ordinary drunken lecher. I would imagine that Gendry learning that he's the son of a king increased his interest in learning more about Robert's historic achievements, like the fact that he won a war and used a trademark war hammer. 

We know from the books (but not so much the show) that Robert sort of took care of some of (many?) his bastard children.  AND Gendry is a compilation of bGendry, and bEdric Storm, acknowledged bastard of Robert's, who was sent to Storm's End to be fostered by Renly's castellan.  Robert had Varys send Edric birthday gifts every year.  And we also know that Jon Arryn arranged to have Gendry placed with an Armorer, to teach him a trade, after his mother died when Gendry was very young.  So even though Gendry doesn't "know" Robert, except for the stories he hears of his glorious battles, nor did he know his mother or her background....Gendry gladly picked up his roots as a Baratheon, as it at least gives him some knowledge of who he is and where he comes from.

[nodorothyparker]

On 8/14/2017 at 5:30 AM, BooBear said:

Ugh I thought the entire episode was terrible. Gendry was super forced. When I saw him i thought they were getting him to make their dragon ice weapons but then he hauls off and wants to go fighting the dead? Where did that come from? Gendry never seemed particularly interested in adventure before.  As fans have noted he was way too stoked to be meeting Jon and not mentioning Arya was stupid but I believe on purpose because they didn't want to start the Gendry / Arya ship again.  Had they simply made more dialog about needing someone who knew how to forge weapons it would have made sense. 

....

I also feel they are being terribly nieve with Cerci... first.. thinking that she just needs to be "convinced" I swear Sansa was needed in that room to remind everyone that Cerci is a special kind of arrogant stupid. Why exactly do they need her support? They just took most of her army? She is really sort of joke now. So to risk life and limb to get a wright? Seems like a stall.  Though the night king is powerful.. I am starting to feel like John is over hyping it. They have dragons, which could take out thousands in 2 or three breaths... they have the rest of the free world ready to fight with dragon glass.. Err, I think we are ready without Cerci. Ships are of no use in the north. 

Pretty much, yeah.  If this was episode 5 in a typical 10-episode season I would chalk this up to one those Point A to Point B kind of episodes you get in the middle of a season that you know are building to something, but here everything is too rushed for anything to happen organically or make any kind of logical sense while also having all the hallmarks of running out the clock doing nonsensical things for no other reason than to hit a fan service check list.  

Gendry is Exhibit A for me.  If he had never shown up again, he would have been an internet meme you chuckled at the first time and now just shrugged at.  If he was book Edric Storm, maybe this would make sense.  Edric was at least an acknowledged bastard who had a superficial relationship with Robert and had been schooled on tales of Robert's heroism.  Gendry never met the man and any claim he might have is only his word for it and the word of an upjumped smuggler who got it from a discredited red witch.   He also wasn't terribly interested when he was told about it or in the games the high lords played, as he once made clear to Arya.  But of course Davos knew how to find him easily and now that he's had time to think about it and what claiming that bloodline brings, he's all about claiming the drunkard who never claimed him and ready go off adventuring with people he's got no reason to know or trust.  But he swings what looks like a styrofoam warhammer around, so cool, I guess.

The wight hunt sounded terrible when the spoilers were leaked, but I'm generally one to wait and see before passing too much judgment as the finished product when presented in context often does make sense.  This one doesn't on either the front end in the planning or the back end in execution.  The Fellowship of North of the Wall is cool and all, despite apparently doing this with whoever happened to show up that day with no provisions or clear escape plan, but it feels like yet another way to run out the clock.  Two episodes left for the season and this is where we are.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, doram said:

Although, by the way, Tyrion's non-reaction to the reminder of his wild fire killing Davos's son is another example of his hypocrisy. Whichever way you look at it, Tyrion's reaction to Dany is wildly inconsistent to his other actions and the whole conflict here is contrived. For one thing, Tyrion (and Varys) didn't unleash Dany to Westeros. She was already headed there and doing quite well on her own. So far all she's got from them are - bad military strategy from Tyrion and allies she quickly lost (thanks to Tyrion) from Varys. Her victory on the Reach was entirely her strategy and entirely hers and it's galling that they're second guessing her after they've constantly guided her wrong. The fact that it stinks of hypocrisy - Tyrion being happy enough that 2 hapless men lost their lives; and his own history of using weapons of mass destruction when it's convenient - just makes the scene distasteful and narratively jarring. 

Dany was stuck in Mereen until Tyrion and Varys cleaned her mess up, so let's not act like Dany  got here on her own because that would be just false. 

As for the hypocrisy, Tyrion's character has always been fine with the war stuff, less so about needlessly killing in cold blood. If you die while attacking him, that's on you. Hell tyrion couldn't even look at those slavemasters getting killed by his own plan last season.  If Dany want's to scare people in kneeling before her than fine do so. But don't talk about breaking the wheel when you're doing the same shit your predecessors did.

 

In regard to the Jon argument happening throughout this thread, I'd still argue that you can't give up your rights than get them back because you were dead. People just don't move to the back of the line because it's inconvenient to you due to your finding a loophole in the law.  I also think Jon's being a legitimate prince is more about fulfilling the prophecy and less about being an heir to the throne. But at this point I don't trust the show so it is what it is.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Dany was stuck in Mereen until Tyrion and Varys cleaned her mess up, so let's not act like Dany  got here on her own because that would be just false.

As I recall, Dany returned to find the city on the verge of destruction and used her dragons and Dothraki to win the day.

[tangerine95]

The episode was a slower and less intense than last week but I liked it.

Dany didn't seem mad at all to me,I totally understood her decision.She gave them a chance and for some reason the Tarly's were dumb enough not to accept.I mean he knows Cersei is crazy and blew up a bunch of her people to save herself from the mess she made,said so himself but to him that's better than Dany because she grew up in Westeros.

Tyrion is kinda a hypocrite imo.He's walking all sad among the Lannister soldiers like he doesn't know what war is and what it looks like when he literally lead a battle against Stannis and fought in one for the Lannisters against Robb.The idea that Dany shouldn't use her dragons as weapons or that using them to execute people instead of a sword is somehow worse doesn't make sense to me tbh.

Loved the scene when Jon meets Drogon.It was so well done and beautifully shot.Drogon looks amazing and Kit Harington's acting was great too.

Not a fan of Jorah but I'm kinda glad he's back so that Dany has someone less conflicted than Tyrion to advise her.It was funny tho how they kept framing the scenes with Jorah,Dany and Jon like it was a love triangle when its really not lol

I wish Jon had more of a reaction to finding out Arya and Bran are alive,there wasn't much time I guess but they could have made it more of a moment.Also weird that Gendry didn't mention Arya.I would think surviving with his sister for like a year would be the first thing he would say to Jon to connect with him instead of talking about a father he never knew.I found Gendry's pride about being Robert's kid weird and ooc tbh.

Jaime and Cersei continue to be annoying.Again Jaime had a look that seems like he sees what Cersei is becoming but I'm guessing like usual he'll ignore it and push it aside.

I could see both Arya and Sansa's point.Sansa can't just kill whoever complains about Jon but I get why Arya can't stand for it.According to the leaked outlines Sansa does think she should be queen and Arya did read her right but that doesn't make sense to me when Sansa's main goal has been to just come home and be with her family.I find it hard to believe she would resent her brother because she wants to be queen herself.

Edited August 14, 2017 by tangerine95

[Oscirus]

Just now, SeanC said:

As I recall, Dany returned to find the city on the verge of destruction and used her dragons and Dothraki to win the day.

and as I recall she left him the city on the verge of economic ruin with an unknown terrorist organization and people cursing her name.

[proserpina65]

Oh man, Sam!  Gilly totally dropped a major bomb, and you missed it.

Love the scenes with Tormund, especially him asking if Jon had brought the big woman with him, and his disappointment when Jon said no.  But does Tyrion really believe that seeing a wight in the (rotting) flesh will make Cersei change one bit?  Seriously?  Like, don't you know your sister at all?

Speaking of the evil bitch, who thinks the pregnancy is fake and just one more way of keeping Jaime closer to her?

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Not by our standards, but way back when, if a woman wasn't able to conceive then it was considered pretty acceptable for her husband to end the marriage. Especially among royals. Henry VIII went through a whole bunch of wives, divorcing or executing them pretty much at will, until Jane Seymour finally gave him the male heir he desperately wanted (and died from post-natal complications as a result). For those of royal lineages, a spouse's ability to further the family line is basically their chief importance.

And yes, Elia had given him two children, but there was the prophecy that Rheagar was focused on and he needed a third child. If Elia was no longer able to give it to him, then it would be pretty logical for him to find someone who would. Not nice by our standards, but I think that judging him by modern sensibilities is at all constructive.

Yeah, but we're talking about officially and religiously acceptable grounds for annulment. Somehow I don't think, "My wife hasn't given me the third child I need for this prophecy, which has nothing to do with the religion of the Seven, so I need you to set our wedding blessed by the Seven Gods aside so I can wed this hot Northern chick" is covered as one of the usual justifications for annulment, not even in the "Septon's Manual of Quickie Annulments for Dummies."

[RandyRanderson]

My biggest issue with the wight hunt is why it wasn't none a long time ago.  All series long the Nights Watch has been sending pleas for more men and now they have a real threat and actual need more more men.  Instead of Jon going through his "I've seen the Night King" for the 20th time, they need to show the other Lords some actual proof.  

Didn't they send a hand from that first wight to Kings Landing? And didn't Jon stab it with Long Claw and it didn't die?

[Blonde Gator]

15 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Pretty much, yeah.  If this was episode 5 in a typical 10-episode season I would chalk this up to one those Point A to Point B kind of episodes you get in the middle of a season that you know are building to something, but here everything is too rushed for anything to happen organically or make any kind of logical sense while also having all the hallmarks of running out the clock doing nonsensical things for no other reason than to hit a fan service check list.  

Gendry is Exhibit A for me.  If he had never shown up again, he would have been an internet meme you chuckled at the first time and now just shrugged at.  If he was book Edric Storm, maybe this would make sense.  Edric was at least an acknowledge bastard who had a superficial relationship with Robert and had been schooled on tales of Robert's heroism.  Gendry never met the man and any claim he might have is only his word for it and the word of an upjumped smuggler who got it from a discredited red witch.   He also wasn't terribly interested when he was told about it or in the games the high lords played, as he once made clear to Arya.  But of course Davos knew how to find him easily and now that he's had time to think about it and what claiming that bloodline brings, he's all about claiming the drunkard who never claimed him and go off adventuring with people he's got no reason to know or trust.  But he swings what looks like a styrofoam warhammer around, so cool, I guess.

The wight hunt sounded terrible when the spoilers were leaked, but I'm generally one to wait and see before passing too much judgment as the finished product when presented in context often does make sense.  This one doesn't on either the front end in the planning or the back end in execution.  The Fellowship of North of the Wall is cool and all, despite apparently doing this with whoever happened to show up that day with no provisions or clear escape plan, but it feels like yet another way to run out the clock.  Two episodes left for the season and this is where we are.

You're spot-on about this episode 5, but if it were a "regular" season, this would have been Episode 8...........and we all know what comes next!

Next week's episode should be epic, as this week's was all about the set up.  I expect (1) a great battle scene (2) some Oh-Shit!!! resolution of outstanding conflicts in the North (3) even more epic batshit crazy from Cersei, and (4) over-the-top CGI dragons.  This is the THE episode of the season, as the penultimate episode has been in every prior season. 

Is it Sunday yet?

Edited August 14, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[proserpina65]

Oh, and the scene with Jon and Drogon?  All I could think was "Don't eat me, Don't eat me.  Hey, nice Drogon!" and "Yum, dinner, but he smells Targ-y.  Ooh, pet me, pet me!".  Drogon was not unlike my cats in that last respect. 

 

Well, poop, apparently the computer ate my other post, but it was basically:

Damn, Sam, Gilly just dropped a major bombshell, and you missed it.

Does Tyrion really think seeing a wight in the (rotting) flesh will make Cersei change her mind about anything - does he not know his sister?

Does anyone else think Cersei is faking a pregnancy to keep Jaime closer to her and not let him move to Tyrion's side?

I loved the scenes with Tormund, especially his asking if Jon had brought the big woman with him, and his obvious disappointment when Jon said no.

Edited August 14, 2017 by proserpina65

[vesperholly]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Backstroke!

Actually, Bronn dragged Jamie out . . . all the way on the opposite side of the lake . . . without surfacing first . . . he's a right champion swimmer our Bronn is. . . . didn't even make Jamie drop his golden hand or any of his armor along the way.

Maybe they caught the EAC! 

[cambridgeguy]

18 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Absolutely.  He called her "m'lady".  When he decided to remain w/the Brotherhood (before being snatched by Mel), Arya tried to convince him to go on with her..."we could be a family", and Gendry said something like "no, you'd be my lady".   He knew/knows, and chose to keep it to himself, but I don't know whether he knows Jon Snow is (kinda sorta) a Stark.  I can't imagine Arya not mentioning her favorite brother....but who knows if Gendry remembered Jon Snow....besides, that's like Jon Smith, there must be a hundred Jon Snow's in the north.

He knows Jon is the son of Ned Stark, so he absolutely knows he's Arya's brother.  Maybe he was saving that conversation for the trip to Eastwatch.  It surely must have taken them at least a couple of hours to sail all the way up there.

Speaking of sailing, where the hell is Euron's invincible fleet? 

Quote

As for the hypocrisy, Tyrion's character has always been fine with the war stuff, less so about needlessly killing in cold blood. If you die while attacking him, that's on you. Hell tyrion couldn't even look at those slavemasters getting killed by his own plan last season.  If Dany want's to scare people in kneeling before her than fine do so. But don't talk about breaking the wheel when you're doing the same shit your predecessors did.

Also, like it or not the last Targ who ruled Westeros was a madman who burned his enemies alive - the only reason he didn't use a dragon is because he didn't have one.  In addition, the Targ family has a history of instability thanks to all of the inbreeding.  Now his daughter shows up and does the exact same thing.  Even if the context is different it doesn't inspire confidence, especially since Aerys started off as OK.  There's a plausible reason for people who don't know her to think the Dany is also going to jump off the deep end.

[Oscirus]

15 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The wight hunt sounded terrible when the spoilers were leaked, but I'm generally one to wait and see before passing too much judgment as the finished product when presented in context often does make sense.  This one doesn't on either the front end in the planning or the back end in execution.  The Fellowship of North of the Wall is cool and all, despite apparently doing this with whoever happened to show up that day with no provisions or clear escape plan, but it feels like yet another way to run out the clock.  Two episodes left for the season and this is where we are.

They tried to make it sound better coming from Tyrion but that made it worse since a: Tyrions plans have failed spectacularly this season and  b: Tyrion knows his sister better than anybody on the show not named Jamie.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Oscirus

[Blonde Gator]

4 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

The episode was a slower and less intense than last week but I liked it.

Dany didn't seem mad at all to me,I totally understood her decision.She gave them a chance and for some reason the Tarly's were dumb enough not to accept.I mean he knows Cersei is crazy and blew up a bunch of her people to save herself from the mess she made,said so himself but to him that's better than Dany because she grew up in Westeros.

Tyrion is kinda a hypocrite imo.He's walking all sad among the Lannister soldiers like he doesn't know what war is and what it looks like when he literally lead a battle against Stannis and fought in one for the Lannisters against Robb.The idea that Dany shouldn't use her dragons as weapons or that using them to execute people instead of a sword is somehow worse doesn't make sense to me tbh.

Loved the scene when Jon meets Drogon.It was so well done and beautifully shot.Drogon looks amazing and Kit Harington's acting was great too.

Not a fan of Jorah but I'm kinda glad he's back so that Dany has someone less conflicted than Tyrion to advise her.It was funny tho how they kept framing the scenes with Jorah,Dany and Jon like it was a love triangle when its really not lol

I wish Jon had more of a reaction to finding out Arya and Bran are alive,there wasn't much time I guess but they could have made it more of a moment.Also weird that Gendry didn't mention Arya.I would think surviving with his sister for like a year would be the first thing he would say to Jon to connect with him instead of talking about a father he never knew.I found Gendry's pride about being Robert's kid weird and ooc tbh.

Jaime and Cersei continue to be annoying.Again Jaime had a look that seems like he sees what Cersei is becoming but I'm guessing like usual he'll ignore it and push it aside.

I could see both Arya and Sansa's point.Sansa can't just kill whoever complains about Jon but I get why Arya can't stand for it.According to the leaked outlines Sansa does think she should be queen and Arya did read her right but that doesn't make sense to me when Sansa's main goal has been to just come home and be with her family.I find it hard to believe she would resent her brother because she wants to be queen herself.

Yes, Dany was matter-of-fact and unemotional in her decision making this week.  A good look for Dany, I think, and makes the whining by The Imp and the Spider very annoying.

I really believe her winter costumes give her MUCH more gravitas than the little slips of silk she wore in prior seasons.  Clothing makes the Queen, LOL.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Another episode to cement my never ever rooting for Dany in any way, shape or form. She and Cercei are both horrid in varying degree. I root for death to take them both. Forcing compliance through painful death is not "bad ass" nor a tactic used by a strong leader. It is a tyrants' way and Dany has fully embraced that role

For the record, I don't want Jon or anyone on the Iron Throne. Burn it to hell.

[stillshimpy]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

The cat-and-mouse game between Littlefinger and Arya is getting ugly. I predict Arya will kill Littlefinger. I also love that Arya and Sansa's initial joy at being reunited is already soured with the same issues that drove them apart the last time -- namely, Arya's belief that Sansa's willing to sell out the family in favor of the new shiny thing. 

Strangely, this was the part of the episode I appreciated the most.  I enjoyed the fact that Littlefinger had rather easily led Arya down a garden path because I love Arya, but showing off her assassin fighting skills in front of Littlefinger and essentially anyone who could see the fight, was not the best plan.  I was pleased that the story structured in the natural result of that:  someone whose entire life has been scheming and plotting easily outmaneuvered Arya.    I don't think Arya will outwit Littlefinger but I think Sansa has his number in a way that will help Arya. 
 

I think I may have been the only person to be seriously bummed out that Gendry returned with Davos.  I felt like they should have handed him a red tunic to wear.  "Hi, Gendry! Thy name is cannon fodder, I suspect."    Oh goody, a much speculated about character returns in time to march towards doom.  Not since Fuck Men has there been a more likely grim ending for a character.  

I did get a giant kick out of the fact that I thought I could hear a triumphant cry, muted, coming from many households when Gilly very clearly started to outline "Oh look, your friend Jon is apparently the rightful king" so at least Gilly possesses that knowledge but I didn't quite buy that Sam wouldn't have focused a bit more on a King getting an annulment.  I know it's not How to Kill the Army of the Dead for Dummies or whatever Sam hopes to find but that would be an ear-catching phrase in this particular situation what with Daenerys Targaryen being all "Wheeeee.  Meet the pets. Sorry about the charring.  Okay, not sorry."  

[Constantinople]

As King in the North, perhaps Jon shouldn't be part of Team Wight Hunter

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Another episode to cement my never ever rooting for Dany in any way, shape or form. She and Cercei are both horrid in varying degree. I root for death to take them both. Forcing compliance through painful death is not "bad ass" nor a tactic used by a strong leader. It is a tyrants' way and Dany has fully embraced that role

For the record, I don't want Jon or anyone on the Iron Throne. Burn it to hell.

How do you think any king maintains their position?

As Jon said earlier this season, the punishment for treason is death.

[screamin]

Going beyond the wall looking for wights to attack seems absurd. Seems to me that in the books people were burning the dead near the Wall as a matter of routine to keep them from coming back as wights, so why not bring a chained corpse just beyond the limits of the wall (hell, even the corpse of an animal if you don't have a human handy) wait till it comes to life, and bring it back again? Going off into the wilderness to look for packs of wights to attack you is so dumb.

[Hana Chan]

9 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I did get a giant kick out of the fact that I thought I could hear a triumphant cry, muted, coming from many households when Gilly very clearly started to outline "Oh look, your friend Jon is apparently the rightful king" so at least Gilly possesses that knowledge but I didn't quite buy that Sam wouldn't have focused a bit more on a King getting an annulment.  I know it's not How to Kill the Army of the Dead for Dummies or whatever Sam hopes to find but that would be an ear-catching phrase in this particular situation what with Daenerys Targaryen being all "Wheeeee.  Meet the pets. Sorry about the charring.  Okay, not sorry."  

The squee! that I made when I heard that was probably heard all the way down the block. My neighbors are going to be very happy when the season is over. :-(

I really can't hold that against Sam because at this point, he's really got no way of knowing that this is really, really, REALLY important. If he knew that Jon was Lyanna's son, that's one thing. Right now, the only one privy to that nugget is Bran. It's going to take a few more pieces of the puzzle to fall into place to really get a perfectly clear picture that will confirm to everyone Jon's position as heir to the world's ugliest chair.

[nodorothyparker]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

Going beyond the wall looking for wights to attack seems absurd. Seems to me that in the books people were burning the dead near the Wall as a matter of routine to keep them from coming back as wights, so why not bring a chained corpse just beyond the limits of the wall (hell, even the corpse of an animal if you don't have a human handy) wait till it comes to life, and bring it back again? Going off into the wilderness to look for packs of wights to attack you is so dumb.

That would actually make sense.  Funny how Jon could remember that he had seen and killed one that had reanimated in Castle Black but didn't suggest trying that first before setting out on a game of hide and seek with the things in the great frozen north of the Wall.

[RandyRanderson]

Did the wight reanimate in Castle Black?  I thought Jon said in this episode it got through the Wall (not sure how).

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, lovetowrite73 said:

I really, REALLY hope that Gilly took that book along with her!

I think she did.  She was only halfway through and was going to need reading material for the carriage ride.

Tormund:  "Did you bring the big woman?"

[FnkyChkn34]

So where is Sam going, and how fast will he get there?  I'd assume he's headed to Winterfell?

[stillshimpy]

8 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

That would actually make sense.  Funny how Jon could remember that he had seen and killed one that had reanimated in Castle Black but didn't suggest trying that first before setting out on a game of hide and seek with the things in the great frozen north of the Wall.

Yes, admittedly I guess part of the problem would be that they don't have a spare dead person at the Wall because they've been burning all the dead bodies.   So they needed to set up a Buddy Cop sort of foray into the lands of the Very Slow Deadly Things.  How slow?  So slow that they can envision collecting a stray one and taking it to King's Landing to show off My Walking Dead Thing and get back to the North in time to have the much-ballyhooed War to End All Things That Go Bump In the Night.   My only real hope for this plot, complete with character in whom we are emotionally invested being brought along for (I highly suspect) the sole purpose of giving us a death to be really upset about, is that when they present said Dead Thing at court it will scare whatever horrid thing is hanging about in Cersei's womb off into the great unknown of the inside of a Giant's Eyeball or something. 

I wonder what in the world she's actually knocked up with, seeing as I doubt Qyburn really is the best Well Women's Health Provider around.  I'm assuming he conjured something in an ultra creepy mason jar that he then invented in-vitro to implant in Cersei.  

Edited August 14, 2017 by stillshimpy

[RedheadZombie]

I've been rolling my eyes for years at the fans who've been begging for Gentry's return.  When Gendry wielded that hammer like his father, I got it!  I may have geeked out just a little.  I loved Gendry and Jon bonding over their "fathers", and it didn't occur to me until later that their true fathers were mortal enemies.

I can't believe that Drogon's affection for Jon didn't make Dany sit up and think, WTF is going on here?  I mean, I realize that the dragons are safe with those they've known since "childhood", but Drogon was purring and sighing in ecstasy at Jon's touch, and Jon is somewhat of an enemy still.  And I don't believe that Drogon is simply reacting to Dany's inner feelings for Jon.  Missandei is the closest person alive to Dany, and I haven't seen Drogon being cuddled by her.  I'm assuming that this behavior is unique to Jon (the other two didn't kill Tyrion, but they weren't affectionate, either), and Dany is smart enough to start investigating Jon's parentage.

I also thought Cersei was simply starting menopause, but she seemed truly pleased.  Her only softness was toward her children, but after she accused Tommen of betraying her, I think she could potentially be a danger to any future baby she had.  I wouldn't put it past Qyburn to lie to Cersei, and manipulate her into thinking she was pregnant.

And for God's sake, I know we are glossing over the months of travel for story line purposes, but use that excuse to let Cersei's hair grow!  It should be down to her shoulders at the very least.  Lena's face is just too strong for that horrible wig, and her embrace with Jamie looked a little too much like identical twin brothers getting it on.

Was the scene at the end supposed to be an homage to the fellowship of the ring? 

Edited August 14, 2017 by RedheadZombie
Pycelle is wonderfully dead, and hopefully Qyburn will be soon.