S04.E06: A Close Shave

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

The success of Liza and Kelsey's latest title spurs a Twitter feud, ending in disaster; Maggie meets a woman with a little something extra.

[Armchair Critic]

Oooh Charles got jealous, finally some action on that front.

[HunterHunted]

36 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Oooh Charles got jealous, finally some action on that front.

I squeed. Literally.

But I love that Aasif Mandvi's character seems to be a decent guy. Liza needs friends who are into her things like publishing. I also like revisiting the fact that Liza can write.

I continue to hate Caitlyn because she's constantly obliviously outting Liza when Liza's charade is the reason Caitlyn can be in college without massive loans. She does this shit and doesn't think anything about what the consequences might be.

Maggie and the mustache was dumb.

Kelsey's Twitter flirt fight was always going to end badly.

Quote

Oooh Charles got jealous, finally some action on that front.

Awwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited August 3, 2017 by HunterHunted

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[voiceover]

I knew he was jealous, but I did not expect that!!  Thank you show, on behalf of all three of the Charles/Liza 'shippers here.  Thought that his explosion was the best moment of the season so far.

I guess it's not Maggie's style to fib, but why couldn't she say, Sorry, I'm seeing someone else?  Instead it turned into one of those SATC-weird sex subplots.  And I agree with her eeeuuuwww reax.  I'm straight and I can't stand that look on women.

[Refresh]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

I knew he was jealous, but I did not expect that!!  Thank you show, on behalf of all three of the Charles/Liza 'shippers here.  Thought that his explosion was the best moment of the season so far.

Oh, it's 4!  Been here quietly shipping the whole time. Breaking out to say, FINALLY!

Also, I don't understand how that guy supposedly stole their author. Did she get a txt with a $ figure? I couldn't read the text because non HD text on an hdtv is a  mess. Help? I'm confused.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Really, Charles? You don't understand why Liza is (fake) dating a different 40 year old guy in publishing who isn't you? The biggest difference between Liza dating you and Jay is that Jay is a 40 year old guy in publishing who isn't her boss and two steps away in the chain of command. And even though she isn't really dating Jay (who seems like a perfectly nice guy), why shouldn't she theoretically date him if he actually asked her out?

Charles has no leg to stand on here. He kissed her once and then told her to forget that it ever happened. He never even asked her out yet he's jealous because he thinks that she's dating someone else. I think that Charles made the correct choice at the end of last season/beginning of this season - he should not date Liza while she is his direct report's employee (most companies wouldn't allow it because it would leave them open to a lawsuit). But that doesn't mean he should expect her not to date anyone else. Just because you like someone doesn't mean they belong to you.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not totally anti-Charles/Liza. I just don't think it's appropriate or ethical for him (isn't he a VP?) to date his employee's assistant who he interacts with at business meetings (and now that she's an associate editor, does she report to him?). I think they get along well and would probably have a good relationship if they dated, but they can't do that while he is her superior/supervisor.

Liza, why do you keep telling people your secret? I know it must have been hard hiding that from people for the first three seasons but now it's like she can't meet a new person without telling them her secret. Keep it on the DL!

I was just shaking my head at Kelsey. First she calls Zane to tell him what a jerk he is but when he texts her back asking to explain, she refuses to reply. Why call if you don't want to actually talk to him? Hopefully this will teach her to stop dating people she meets through work. If you shit where you eat, things get messy and gross. I mean, I guess at least Zane isn't married so this is an improvement over her previous work hook ups.

Edited August 3, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Never is not the same as ever.

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

I guess it's not Maggie's style to fib, but why couldn't she say, Sorry, I'm seeing someone else?  Instead it turned into one of those SATC-weird sex subplots.  And I agree with her eeeuuuwww reax.  I'm straight and I can't stand that look on women.

I know, I thought it was probably an old Samantha subplot that was never used from when she went through her lesbian phase. 

When the episode description said, "a little something extra" and this woman with a mustache appeared, I thought it was going to be a penis!

[paulvdb]

5 hours ago, Refresh said:

Also, I don't understand how that guy supposedly stole their author. Did she get a txt with a $ figure? I couldn't read the text because non HD text on an hdtv is a  mess. Help? I'm confused.

The text said: "We're closing tomorrow with L.L. Moore at 5.2 Million. Thanks."

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I continue to hate Caitlyn because she's constantly obliviously outting Liza when Liza's charade is the reason Caitlyn can be in college without massive loans. She does this shit and doesn't think anything about what the consequences might be.

But Caitlyn doesn't know that Liza lied about her age to get the job. Or did I miss an episode where Liza told Caitlyn? She really should tell Caitlyn if they're going to hang out at places where she could meet people who think she's 27.

[Snarklepuss]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Really, Charles? You don't understand why Liza is (fake) dating a different 40 year old guy in publishing who isn't you? The biggest difference between Liza dating you and Jay is that Jay is a 40 year old guy in publishing who isn't her boss and two steps away in the chain of command. And even though she isn't really dating Jay (who seems like a perfectly nice guy), why shouldn't she theoretically date him if he actually asked her out?

Charles has no leg to stand on here. He kissed her once and then told her to forget that it never happened. He never even asked her out yet he's jealous because he thinks that she's dating someone else. I think that Charles made the correct choice at the end of last season/beginning of this season - he should not date Liza while she is his direct report's employee (most companies wouldn't allow it because it would leave them open to a lawsuit). But that doesn't mean he should expect her not to date anyone else. Just because you like someone doesn't mean they belong to you.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not totally anti-Charles/Liza. I just don't think it's appropriate or ethical for him (isn't he a VP?) to date his employee's assistant who he interacts with at business meetings (and now that she's an associate editor, does she report to him?). I think they get along well and would probably have a good relationship if they dated, but they can't do that while he is her superior/supervisor.

This was actually almost a page out of my own life.  When I was in my very early 40s I was getting divorced and working as an executive admin. for a "Mr. Big" in a Fortune 100 company.  We hit it off immediately but knowing he was my boss and the ethical conflicts of our relationship (in addition he was married), I tried to keep my distance (and so did he).  It was inevitable that we had an emotional/romantic connection going on under the surface that was for the most part unexpressed.  We talked freely about certain personal things, which might not have been completely appropriate, but I was one of those admins. that knew a LOT about him because I did everything from babysit his kids, to house sit, to pick up his dry cleaning - you name it.  Well, anyway, he never approved of my ex, and later never approved of the men I dated.  He was very opinionated on that subject with no good reason.  He acted almost proprietary about me after a while!  It got to the point that I asked him one day why he never approved of any of the men in my life and he blurted out, "Because I can't be one of them, that's why!"

~  Whoa........Blow away moment!  ~

Anyway, we had the inevitable discussion about how we couldn't deny that something was going on between us but were aware that the ethical issues made it very unwise for us to pursue a romantic relationship.  So we decided not to do anything about it but to continue working with each other.  Thankfully we were both on the same page about it.  It was a great job and he was a great boss, and I knew that those things were too good to potentially ruin by having an "affair".  That didn't mean we didn't still fight like an old married couple and enjoy each others' company immensely in a "platonic-romantic" way, though.  There was no way we could change that.  But I am very glad that both of us knew where to draw the line. 

Getting back to the show, I would hope that Charles and Liza have a similar discussion in the near future, but somehow I don't have a feeling for where the show is going with this.  They could try that for a while and then the sexual tension would continue to build to the point that neither can handle it, then of course we'd be treated to some "forbidden sex" scenes with the two of them, after which both he and Liza will feel incredibly guilty and avoid each other, then she gets back with Josh, then the merry-go-round starts all over again.  Or perhaps the show might make her work for someone else and date Charles, only that wouldn't be as titillating for the audience.   I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Refresh]

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

6 hours ago, Refresh said:

Also, I don't understand how that guy supposedly stole their author. Did she get a txt with a $ figure? I couldn't read the text because non HD text on an hdtv is a  mess. Help? I'm confused.

The text said: "We're closing tomorrow with L.L. Moore at 5.2 Million. Thanks."

Thanks.! Blame may need to be spread then because why was Charles texting her that specific sensitive info? She was not a key part of the deal. She could've been in a bar and anyone interested could see it.  And in person he never used a number. Now he starts?

I know it's just a plot device, and he's as "old" but ugh. 

[slaterain]

Count me in on the "FINALLY/CHARLES" bit! Yes - it's irrational and unethical and completely ridiculous but I love it in my guilty pleasure tv! ;) 

While I like Josh, I have always thought that Charles is the end game. So I'm curious to see how this moves forward. Hopefully they actually let it move forward instead of yet another big Charles moment that gets erased/ignored the very next episode. I am also curious if Liza's direct boss (why am I blanking on her name?!?!) says anything because she definitely kept looking at Liza's shocked face inquiringly! 

[EdnasEdibles]

Moustache lady was weirdly forward. "Hey I just met you but let's take a bath and now I want you to shave me" - or maybe we could get drinks? Slow your roll there, Magnum PI. 

But Maggie was also being weird. The moustache was so obvious that if the lady hasn't dealt with it, she obviously doesn't care about it. So if it's a dealbreaker, break the deal. I agree with the above poster that said it felt like an old Samantha subplot.

As for the Kelsey/Zane relationship, I don't like it. I hate those "I hate you but I love you" relationships. It's not healthy to be that jerky and abusive to each other. It might be funny in the short-term but grow up already. Endlessly shitting on someone's successes and jobs and everything is not supportive or funny. She should let him explain but also end it.

I am a Liza/Charles shipper so I want this to happen for her. I wish she'd just tell him. 

[gesundheit]

Egads that Maggie plot was embarrassing. What a waste of Michelle Hurd. (In fairness, I have never once found Mazar a convincing lesbian, not for a second. But I mean... Hurd could pull the weight on her end, which is really what they need in a Maggie pairing. Meanwhile Maggie can keep her giant talons and we can just imagine she's a pillow princess and let the other actress do the convincing.) Anyway yes, total SATC plot, one of the ones that felt like it was written by gay men who've barely met any women. Not even mildly amusing. In other news, wait. Charles and Liza are supposed to be the same age? Ha.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I continue to hate Caitlyn because she's constantly obliviously outting Liza when Liza's charade is the reason Caitlyn can be in college without massive loans. She does this shit and doesn't think anything about what the consequences might be.

It's not up to Caitlyn to keep Liza's secret, IMO. How does she know who's aware of the secret and who isn't? It's an unfair burden.

11 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Maggie and the mustache was dumb.

I agree, and there was also something cruel about it. So what if the lady has a mustache? She's obviously okay with it. Maggie is the asshole here.

I agree with everything you said about Liza/Charles, ElectricBoogaloo. I'm totally for them once they work at different places, but while Liza is at Empirical and a subordinate? Gross, gross, gross. The power differential makes it wrong, wrong, wrong. Charles owns Empirical, I believe. Also, he shouldn't be talking about the firm's finances in such detail to everyone. It feels like he's trying to emotionally blackmail people or something when he emphasizes how much the house needs certain authors. Maybe you should work a little harder getting a broader range of authors, dude.

I loved that the dog advice book was a hit. That's precisely the type of nutty thing that would be a huge success. They'll likely get one more bestseller out of it, and then the genre is exhausted. It's very much the product of a particular moment in time.

I thought Zane was relieved to get rid of L.L. Moore because he was a pain in the ass, but suddenly he steals him back? Or was it a third publisher who got Moore? I haz confused.

[Aulty]

1 hour ago, slaterain said:

Count me in on the "FINALLY/CHARLES" bit! Yes - it's irrational and unethical and completely ridiculous but I love it in my guilty pleasure tv! ;)

YES, ME TOO!

And my reaction to this episode and the promo for the next was to go back to the season preview to check whether the scenes with the more steamy stuff matched the promo. they do. horray.

Now lets get Charles and Liza going, mix up Kelsey and Josh a bit and make Maggie and Diana BFFs - that should keep the story going for a while.

re this episode: Someone further up hit the nail on the head when they said the Maggie story looked like something that was written for Samantha in SATC.

[paulvdb]

11 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought Zane was relieved to get rid of L.L. Moore because he was a pain in the ass, but suddenly he steals him back? Or was it a third publisher who got Moore? I haz confused.

I think you have your authors mixed up. L.L. Moore is this show's equivalent of George R.R. Martin. He is not the author that they stole from Zane. I forgot that author's name.

[MortysCleaningLady]

Thank you, @dubbel zout re: the 'horrible' mustache and Maggie's response. First of all, facial hair isn't a big deal.   I was squinting at my screen trying to figure out what was wrong at first.   I thought it was the mole. As a child of the 70s I have seen plenty of perfectly lovely women who didn't chose to remove facial hair.   Secondly, if you are going to contrive a plot about a lady with a mustache, show me a mustache.   Darker hair on pale skin would have been more obvious.   I have my physical dislikes in men and I sure wouldn't end up in a bubble bath with a guy with one of those physical preferences.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

Moustache lady was weirdly forward. "Hey I just met you but let's take a bath and now I want you to shave me" - or maybe we could get drinks? Slow your roll there, Magnum PI. 

But Maggie was also being weird. The moustache was so obvious that if the lady hasn't dealt with it, she obviously doesn't care about it. So if it's a dealbreaker, break the deal. I agree with the above poster that said it felt like an old Samantha subplot.

Dying at your first paragraph!  HHahahahahhahaha!

And Maggie is the most passive aggressive person ever.  Want your mustached cake and eat it too, much?  Am I supposed to be entertained that she's so completely non-assertive?  Give me a break.  That whole subplot was so "Hilarious Hijinks Ensue, Please Laugh Now".  Either date the person or don't.  You want this middle ground where you date the person but you hate it the whole time.  Ho ho ho, how funny for us.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[dubbel zout]

Thanks for clearing up the author thing for me, paulvdb.

Don Roos wrote this episode, and I expected more from the guy who's responsible for The Opposite of Sex.

Also, there wasn't nearly enough Diana, though Miriam Shor's reading of "You're strapped to a bomb, ladies; enjoy the ride" (rough paraphrase) was tremendous. Why is she being used as a goat more often than not? Like others, I'm dying for her and Maggie to meet.

[bichonblitz]

11 hours ago, voiceover said:

Thank you show, on behalf of all three of the Charles/Liza 'shippers here.

It's all I care about with this show, Liza and Charles getting together. I could care less about anyone else on this show. Except Diana. 

My prediction for the future is:

1. Liza finally admits she has feelings for Charles, too, and they start dating. 

2. Liza will confess her age to Charles and they work through that hump. 

3. Hijinks will ensue as they try to hide their relationship from their co-workers. 

End of season. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by bichonblitz

[Atlanta]

Liza's off the shoulder top was barely hanging on and don't care for the rat's nest hair.

I feel really bad for Kelsey, but she needs to be banned from dating anyone in the industry. It never works out well for her or Empirical.

Mustache lady creeped me out.

From the preview, I'm not ready for anything going on with Kelsey and Josh. Too soon.

[dubbel zout]

55 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I feel really bad for Kelsey, but she needs to be banned from dating anyone in the industry. It never works out well for her or Empirical.

Kelsey doesn't need to be banned from dating anyone in the industry, she needs an in-depth course on confidentiality and social-media use. She's also getting a little cocky with the success Millennial has had; witness how taken aback Charles was when she rather haughtily told him he was borrowing money from Millennial for to keep Empirical afloat. Uh, it's all one company, Kelsey, and you were lucky you weren't fired on the spot for insubordination.

[Angeltoes]

Quote

Also, there wasn't nearly enough Diana, though Miriam Shor's reading of "You're strapped to a bomb, ladies; enjoy the ride" (rough paraphrase) was tremendous. 

I loved her rant about Charles - "He'll get a goddamn cupcake like everybody else!"

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

It's all I care about with this show, Liza and Charles getting together. I could care less about anyone else on this show. Except Diana. 

My prediction for the future is:

1. Liza finally admits she has feelings for Charles, too, and they start dating. 

2. Liza will confess her age to Charles and they work through that hump. 

3. Hijinks will ensue as they try to hide their relationship from their co-workers. 

End of season. 

I agree, this seems most plausible.  She keeps his secret, then he can keep hers and then they both can keep theirs.  Whew, that's a lot of potential hijinx (and steamy sex)!  OK, I admit it, even with the ethical dilemma, I'm like the poster above - getting the two of them together is my guilty obsession.  And the more steamy sex scenes the better!  On the desk, in his office, LOL.  Diana swearing she hears something through the door, Liza coming out of his office with her skirt hiked up and hair a mess, etc......

OK, I'll see myself out now...... ;-D

[MissLucas]

Really show? You get the fantastic Michelle Hurd and then you waste her on one of the dumbest sub-plots ever? That came close to a character assassination for Maggie who I'd think could handle some facial hair by either deciding it's a deal-breaker before ending up in a bathtub or by actually talking about it like an adult person would if she thinks it's worth the risk and embarrassment. And I'm pretty sure she would also not misread the body-language that accompanied 'shave me'. That was cringe-worthy and infuriating.

[MissEwa]

8 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

When the episode description said, "a little something extra" and this woman with a mustache appeared, I thought it was going to be a penis!

Yeah, I was fully expecting that and was actually a little relieved that the whole thing ended up being (mostly) just dumb and cringy, instead of (probably) horribly transphobic and cringy. Still, it was possibly their most terrible random subplot in recent memory. 

I'm with @ElectricBoogaloo - Charles pursuing Liza is skeevy and always has been, and, for me, won't be made better by him finding out her real age because she's still an employee. But I do see how seeing her with Jay could make him jealous, so I'm okay with his mood... he doesn't have a leg to stand on but emotions don't always read the company handbook. 

Poor Kelsey. But also... if those details are so confidential, don't send them in a text. Everyone knows how smartphones work, right? She could have been anywhere, with anyone.  'Signing with LL More tomorrow - thanks!' would have been enough. I know, then they wouldn't have a storyline... 

[dubbel zout]

25 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

if those details are so confidential, don't send them in a text.

Yeah, I think everyone at Empirical needs a refresher course on confidentiality. Heh.

[politichick]

2 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

I agree, this seems most plausible.  She keeps his secret, then he can keep hers and then they both can keep theirs.  Whew, that's a lot of potential hijinx (and steamy sex)!  OK, I admit it, even with the ethical dilemma, I'm like the poster above - getting the two of them together is my guilty obsession.  And the more steamy sex scenes the better!  On the desk, in his office, LOL.  Diana swearing she hears something through the door, Liza coming out of his office with her skirt hiked up and hair a mess, etc......

OK, I'll see myself out now...... ;-D

I'm also okay with a Liza/Charles pairing. I think they both have enough respect for her and her work and she has enough self-confidence that they would conduct their relationship as equals. I would feel differently if she was actually 26, but they're the same age and shit happens.

Agree it's too soon for a Kelsey/Josh pairing. Way too soon.

On a shallow note: The clothes this season are the worst! Kelsey seems to have gained weight, although I'm not positive, and the clothes aren't as nice. I really enjoyed her capes and some other pieces from last season. Liza's clothes always suck. I mean just cause she's playing 21 doesn't mean she has to have such bad taste. Diana still has a fab closet. And love the statement necklaces. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, paulvdb said:

But Caitlyn doesn't know that Liza lied about her age to get the job. Or did I miss an episode where Liza told Caitlyn? She really should tell Caitlyn if they're going to hang out at places where she could meet people who think she's 27.

It's been a while so I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I think way back in S1 (or maybe the beginning of S2?) when Caitlin came to visit Liza and Maggie, Liza initially tried to keep everything about her new life a secret and then Caitlin (or her friends?) ended up getting a tattoo from Josh which resulted in Liza confessing to Caitlin that she was dating Josh and lying about her age. 

[bilgistic]

5 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Liza's off the shoulder top was barely hanging on and don't care for the rat's nest hair.

That top was ridiculous. Who wears that shit to work? No one, that's who. To a music festival, sure. To work? No. Never. Just stop it, Patricia Field.

[morakot]

But Charles doesn't know that Liza is almost his age. In his mind, she's still the pert young office girl who's almost 20 years younger than him. What would you feel if he was hitting on Kelsey? If he knows she's older, would that change his feelings for her? Or would he have his fantasy shattered?

[MissEwa]

5 minutes ago, morakot said:

But Charles doesn't know that Liza is almost his age. In his mind, she's still the pert young office girl who's almost 20 years younger than him. What would you feel if he was hitting on Kelsey? If he knows she's older, would that change his feelings for her? Or would he have his fantasy shattered?

I think he'll be very, very relieved. But yeah, I don't think 'they're really the same age' is a justification. He *thinks* she's twenty years younger than him AND she's his employee AND he's still putting her in this position, and he was doing it even when she had a boyfriend. Like I don't think he's a monster but he's crossed a lot of lines that for me can't be brushed away with 'but they're really the same age!'  

[springbarb]

The Maggie subplot was stupid, but I appreciated her being all "Eh, whatever" when mustache lady stormed out. She wasn't invested, so it wasn't that big a deal.

[voiceover]

9 hours ago, gesundheit said:

In fairness, I have never once found Mazar a convincing lesbian, not for a second. 

Really?  Please explain.

[BellyLaughter]

11 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Egads that Maggie plot was embarrassing. What a waste of Michelle Hurd. (In fairness, I have never once found Mazar a convincing lesbian, not for a second. But I mean... Hurd could pull the weight on her end, which is really what they need in a Maggie pairing. Meanwhile Maggie can keep her giant talons and we can just imagine she's a pillow princess and let the other actress do the convincing.) Anyway yes, total SATC plot, one of the ones that felt like it was written by gay men who've barely met any women. Not even mildly amusing. In other news, wait. Charles and Liza are supposed to be the same age? Ha.

Nailed it!!

I also wonder if they are weirdly making fun of millennials by dressing Kelsey and Liza the way they do?? Either that or they are so fashion forward it will take another lifetime for me to understand it or like it!!

Edited August 4, 2017 by BellyLaughter

[Maharincess]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

Really?  Please explain.

I'm wondering about this myself. Not all lesbians are butch looking.  I don't understand how somebody can be a convincing lesbian. 

[Aulty]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It's been a while so I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I think way back in S1 (or maybe the beginning of S2?) when Caitlin came to visit Liza and Maggie, Liza initially tried to keep everything about her new life a secret and then Caitlin (or her friends?) ended up getting a tattoo from Josh which resulted in Liza confessing to Caitlin that she was dating Josh and lying about her age. 

She did tell her about Josh, but not the age thing.

[seacharm]

On Thu Aug 03 2017 at 7:41 AM, voiceover said:

I knew he was jealous, but I did not expect that!!  Thank you show, on behalf of all three of the Charles/Liza 'shippers here.  Thought that his explosion was the best moment of the season so far.

Hello from the fourth Charles/Liza shipper! 

I agree with you completely. That was the best moment of the season (for us), and unlike some other people here, I don't see that many problems with this relationship.

By telling her this to her, and using the verb "dating", he obviously wants something longterm with her, so I don't think (or hope) that this is just going to escalate on the basis of sexual tension and then become an awkward avoiding at the workplace. I really think there is some potential in this relationship as they seem to have similar interests and understanding for each other, not just physical affection. Him finding out about her real age will only be a relief if he doesn't already know. 

I hope the writers will give them proper space to develop a relationship.  

[Winston Wolfe]

17 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Magnum PI

One of the most hilarious lines I've ever read.  I've got a bushy salt-and-pepper mustache, but would kill for Tom Selleck's facial hair.

[Ms Blue Jay]

^ Thanks @Winston Wolfe, but I was quoting @EdnasEdibles

18 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Kelsey doesn't need to be banned from dating anyone in the industry, she needs an in-depth course on confidentiality and social-media use. She's also getting a little cocky with the success Millennial has had; witness how taken aback Charles was when she rather haughtily told him he was borrowing money from Millennial for to keep Empirical afloat. Uh, it's all one company, Kelsey, and you were lucky you weren't fired on the spot for insubordination.

I still don't get the whole thing.  Is there a possibility of Millennial making enough money that they shoot off and make their own business?

As of right now, they are a smaller publishing house within an older more established one?  

Edited August 4, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

20 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

Nailed it!!

I also wonder if they are weirdly making fun of millennials by dressing Kelsey and Liza the way they do?? Either that or they are so fashion forward it will take another lifetime for me to understand it or like it!!

Patricia Field has always done her own thing.  Seasons 1 and 2 of Sex and the City continue to inspire me to this day and they were almost 20 years ago.  But Season 3 Patricia went a little insane, maybe with the success of the show, and put out ideas that has inspired no one since.  I've never seen anyone dress like S3 Carrie.  Then again I don't live in NYC but I think even still.

The Devil Wears Prada is a great movie with great fashion but sometimes the way she dressed Andy after her transformation was still over the top.  PF tends to add like 3-5 more details and accessories than necessary.

I wouldn't call PF fashion forward exactly.  She's more like experimental.  Early Sex and the City she became successful for mixing vintage with new, cheap with designer.  But I'm pretty sure ever since Season 6 Sex and the City it's just designer for every single piece now.  So it's less relateable.  

Here, on this show, I admit sometimes I really like the clothes, and then other times it's way too wacky and just a parody of how people dress.  I admit I don't really know how 20 somethings dress anymore, but I'm not sure that this show is held up as a paragon of fashion by them anyway.  I assume a lot of them follow Kendall Jenner and Bella Hadid.  

I hate how when someone is a bit shorter or curvier, like Hilary Duff I guess, stylists don't seem to know what to do.  It's ridiculous.  The recent movie Girls Trip was a great example of people dressing really stylishly in a range of body types.  

Edited August 4, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Superpole2000]

Does Charles ever laugh? I find him so boring...and frankly, not that clever. His business acumen seems to be questionable, he is divorced so maybe he sucks at relationships, he doesn't have any friends on the show, and his outburst in this episode was ridiculous considering how it ignored the fact that he is Liza's ultimate boss. Like the other guys on this show, he seems to have been presented to viewers as "Good looking" as if that is a personality. He might as well be a cardboard cutout.

[Atlanta]

I like Charles though I do find him humdrum. What bothers me is that he is her boss's boss. If he were in another department or not her direct superior (chain of command thing), it wouldn't bother me. 

I think they should let Hilary style herself. She probably knows what works better on her body than PF does. I'm on the short side and avoid anything too blousey or busy. She'd do better with tailored pieces. I assume they dress Liza oddly (most of the time) to make her a little bit of a sore thumb since she's trying to be 15 years younger.

[Refresh]

1 hour ago, Superpole2000 said:

Like the other guys on this show, he seems to have been presented to viewers as "Good looking" as if that is a personality.

Ha. The funny thing is I don't disagree with your analysis but I still like him. But probably the biggest reason I like him is that Liza likes him and I like Liza. Is that called transference? 

He cares about his employees. That's another. 

I'm not sure I realized Empirical was only 75 employees until this episode. I thought it was bigger. I used to work for a family owned publisher that was about 75 FT employees and we had a few imprints. They weren't that separated day to day honestly. They shared most  resources: design, marketing, accounting, fulfillment.It wasn't a formal place at that size either, there would be parties at personal residences (like when Diana did that higge thing), and though heirarchy existed it wasn't a thing that you felt.  For better or worse. (Oh, Nor were our offices as nice.) But through that lens the relationships at Empirical make a lot more sense now that I know it's smaller. Even though, fiction. Of course. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Refresh
Heirarchy addition

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I also wonder if they are weirdly making fun of millennials by dressing Kelsey and Liza the way they do?? Either that or they are so fashion forward it will take another lifetime for me to understand it or like it!!

No, it's typical Pat Fields costuming. It's always a little (or a lot, depending on your mileage) out there.

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

As of right now, they are a smaller publishing house within an older more established one?

Millennium is an imprint of Empirical, which means it has its own budget and editorial staff but uses Empirical's sales staff, facilities, etc.  An imprint is a way for a publisher to diversify its range, e.g., Knopf has always been known as a highly literary imprint of Random House, while RH proper was more general interest. There are also genre imprints, like Harlequin (romance), Tor (for science fiction), etc. 

In Millennium's case, Charles established it to go after books that would appeal to that particular audience, and by concentrating on that market, it frees up Empirical to pursue other projects without losing out on that market.

[Hanahope]

I thought Chelsea was fully clued in on Liza's "double life."  It made no sense as to why she'd see her mom speaking with someone she didn't know and just walk up and say "hey mom...." instead of "did you pay the bill yet?" without any personalization in it.  I know its to create drama.  

Course, it also makes no sense why Charles wouldn't understand why its not that great of an idea to be dating an employee.

And Diane that clueless about responding to "I love you", even in a text?

[dmc]

Brother...

Kelsey's response to Charles was completely inappropriate about Millennial's profits they are ALL under the same umbrella of his company...so he can do what he wants with the profits...

Also twitter war with regards to work is poor judgment REALLY poor.

Liza talking to Charles' on Kelsey's behalf other than the (find out all the details advice-which is solid) was crazy because Kelsey did show incredibly poor judgement and Charles is right...he has to think about everyone on salary there. 

Charles is jealous but to be fair... he has made NO initiative or they could be dating. 

I agree btw Charles is HOT but doesn't have a personality at all. 

Diana for the WIN across the board again. 

[allonsyalice]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Here, on this show, I admit sometimes I really like the clothes, and then other times it's way too wacky and just a parody of how people dress.  I admit I don't really know how 20 somethings dress anymore, but I'm not sure that this show is held up as a paragon of fashion by them anyway.  I assume a lot of them follow Kendall Jenner and Bella Hadid.    

As a 20 something who dresses (sometimes) I really do like most of the fashion seen on this show (examples include Kelsey's pink bow jacket, Kelsey's red top/trousers combo, and Liza's white dress. Wasn't a fan of Liza's off the shoulder top but the skirt she wore with it was cute!) However, my taste in clothes veer from the ordinary (who is Bella Hadid? I'm not asking to be cute, i legit just don't know. and I'm not sure why anyone would follow kendall jenner, tbh. I can also safely say my friends share these thoughts.) But I like when clothes are out there and experimental, something I find is done interestingly on this show. I'm not saying I like all of the looks seen, but i would say I like the majority of them. (but tbh I'm wearing a graphic tee that says  "And Peggy" and denim shorts so take that one how you will, I guess. I'm not expert, i just like what I like)

also, count me in as another Charles/ Liza shipper here. Sort of. Anyway, it was super fun seeing him get all jealous. Sometimes I forget that Charles/Liza is even an option here. I wish they'd take it further, tbh. I think they definitely have heat and chemistry (even though Charles is a little boring, haha. Like he's cute, but also sort of a snore fest. I'm actually confused as to why I'm sort of crushing on him. Maybe it's his height?) but they need to push it a little further. More than just awkward moments and longing looks, there's definitely something there. 

[Angeltoes]

"And Peggy"?

I live in denim shorts.  Fashion goes right by me.