S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Luckylyn]

54 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

OK, if I think of the monarchy in England, the crown is passed on to the first born and his/her offspring and so on and so on. So my question is, is Danny the Mad King's first born? No, right? My next question would be, is Jon the son of the Mad King's first born? Because if he is then yes, he would have more claim to the throne than Danny if I model this all after the present day monarchy in England.  What's the birthing order here?

I mean was it right for any of Robert's brothers, I forgot their names, but was it right for them to think that they had a claim to the throne when Joffrey was supposedly Robert's son? We know he wasn't but, did Robert's brother know that? I can't remember. Wasn't it supposed to naturally pass down to Robert's first born son?

I believe Jon is the son of the oldest heir so he would jump over Dany inthe line of session.   The same way that Prince Willam's children are ahead of Prince Harry in England.  Once the heir has a child then that child becomes the next heir.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/31/2017 at 8:32 PM, Clanstarling said:

If you can't be sanctimonious about the guy who tried to have you killed as a baby, who can you be sanctimonious about?

Right? Robert tried to have two children killed. Multiple times. Dany is completely right to call that shit out. I get so tired of Dany and Sansa being held to these ridiculous standards. Dany makes mistakes, sure, but she's 1000% better than the last 5 Westerosi monarchs.

 

54 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

OK, if I think of the monarchy in England, the crown is passed on to the first born and his/her offspring and so on and so on. So my question is, is Danny the Mad King's first born? No, right? My next question would be, is Jon the son of the Mad King's first born? Because if he is then yes, he would have more claim to the throne than Danny if I model this all after the present day monarchy in England.  What's the birthing order here?

I mean was it right for any of Robert's brothers, I forgot their names, but was it right for them to think that they had a claim to the throne when Joffrey was supposedly Robert's son? We know he wasn't but, did Robert's brother know that? I can't remember. Wasn't it supposed to naturally pass down to Robert's first born son?

Jon is Rhaegar's son, yes--but he is a bastard. Bastards have become legitimized (or even just become king by right of conquest, as William the Conqueror did) but bastards generally only have that kind of support when they're known, when they're part of the culture, when they have political allies. (The main example I'm thinking of is Henry VIII's bastard, Henry Fitzroy, who was Henry's only living son for quite a while and who was shown great favor by his father--there was talk of legitimizing him to solve the succession crisis.) Basically what I"m saying is that context is everything. And the context of Westeros changes DAILY. Jon doesn't even know his true parentage right now. Also the fact that Dany is a woman, albeit the "trueborn" heir, is another wrinkle. It took a WHILE for England to be comfortable with the idea of a queen regnant--the reason Henry VIII had a succession crisis in the first place was because he wasn't comfortable with the heir he already had, because she was a girl (the future Mary I). England's earlier flirtation with a queen regnant had come in the 12th century when Matilda had been named heir by her father, Henry I. The barons didn't like that (because, you know, woman), and Matilda's cousin Stephen stepped into the power vacuum and decided he wanted a piece of that. What ensued was called the Anarchy "and people said openly that Christ and His saints slept."  Stephen was a terrible ruler and Matilda was understandably pissed at the loss of her legacy and she undermined him at every opportunity.

 

Anyway, this is my long-winded way of saying that you can point to the rules of succession all you like but when things are collapsing, that doesn't matter so much. What matters is who will follow you? The whole series had been a study about the nature of power. Lpok at Cersei, she doesn't have the slightest claim to the throne. She's not the daughter of a king, not even the bastard. She just pushed everyone else out of the way and grabbed it. And even though she only has 3-ish of the 7 kingdoms, she (or her proxy) was able to convince Lord Tarly to get on board, and that gave them the Reach. It's all politics, it's all context.

[Macbeth]

On 7/31/2017 at 6:52 PM, kieyra said:

I understand the explanation of why Bran is now a robot, but don't understand why, out of all the things he could have said to Sansa, he went with "you sure looked pretty that night you were raped".

I believe that given Bran was at the Weirwood Tree where Sansa was married - those images of her marriage night were being revealed to him at that very moment.

[RedHawk]

40 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

Let's solve two problems at once - the throne is ugly and Jon needs dragon glass.  Devise a better throne, cut up the current one for Jon's use.  It is made of dragon glass, right?  

I asked that question in an earlier post and no one has responded either way. To me it looks like it's dragon glass and that would make sense, wouldn't it? I like your idea of busting up that ugly thrown seat for weaponry!

[CletusMusashi]

The throne is made of melted sword blades. So, iron and carbon.

Obsidian is mostly silicon. You could mass-produce it by having dragons blast flame onto the right kind of sand or stone.

Edited August 3, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[Calamity Jane]

4 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

The throne is made of melted swords blades. So, iron and carbon.

Obsidian is mostly silicon. You could mass-produce it by having dragons blast flame onto the right kind of sand or stone.

The throne on Dragonstone?  I thought only the Iron Throne was made of melted swords.  Well, shucks, then. 

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

The throne is made of melted swords blades. So, iron and carbon.

Obsidian is mostly silicon.

The throne on Dragonstone?  Not Cersei's, but Dany's.  The Iron Throne is swords, but I think they might be on to something regarding the throne at Dragonstone.  

[CletusMusashi]

Oh, OK, right!

She still needs a throne, though, and that thing does look intimidating.

Also, while they think that Jon saw something, I don't think for a minute that what she is envisioning comes anywhere close to the scope of this actual threat. Smashing your throne to splinters on the say-so of a guy you just met, who won't even accept you as his queen, is a bit more accomadation than I would expect from anybody. Dany is probably picturing something along the lines of "Yeah, that magic shit is scary. Let me tell you about the time I met one wizard guy who could make himself look like about twenty." She probably thinks his perception of thousands of ice zombies was  the result of being scared shitless by about a hundred.

Edited August 2, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, Calamity Jane said:

Let's solve two problems at once - the throne is ugly and Jon needs dragon glass.  Devise a better throne, cut up the current one for Jon's use.  It is made of dragon glass, right?  

Wrong. The Iron Throne, as the name suggests, is made of iron.

21 minutes ago, Calamity Jane said:

The throne on Dragonstone?  I thought only the Iron Throne was made of melted swords.  Well, shucks, then. 

Oh! My bad. The Dragonstone throne probably is dragon glass.

[Calamity Jane]

28 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Wrong. The Iron Throne, as the name suggests, is made of iron.

Oh! My bad. The Dragonstone throne probably is dragon glass.

I am so sorry - a day of chasing an energetic 5-year-old grandchild apparently scrambled my brain.  It must have been on a different thread where someone complained of the ugliness of the throne on Dragonstone, and I saw a solution to two problems, and posted it here instead of wherever I read that.  Pretty sure now it wasn't here that I saw it, so I apologize for not being clearer.  

And I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek, not serious.  It is a big pile of obsidian, though. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Calamity Jane

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I asked that question in an earlier post and no one has responded either way. To me it looks like it's dragon glass and that would make sense, wouldn't it? I like your idea of busting up that ugly thrown seat for weaponry!

That throne in Dragonstone looked like a rock nobody could remove when they built the castle:
Worker: SIre that rock is too hard for us to destroy.  We worked all week just to carve that nook barely big enough for an adult to sit on
Targ King: Leave it be.  I consulted my Fengshui guy and he said that was a good spot for a throne 

:D

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

OK, if I think of the monarchy in England, the crown is passed on to the first born and his/her offspring and so on and so on. So my question is, is Danny the Mad King's first born? No, right? My next question would be, is Jon the son of the Mad King's first born? Because if he is then yes, he would have more claim to the throne than Danny if I model this all after the present day monarchy in England.  What's the birthing order here?

I mean was it right for any of Robert's brothers, I forgot their names, but was it right for them to think that they had a claim to the throne when Joffrey was supposedly Robert's son? We know he wasn't but, did Robert's brother know that? I can't remember. Wasn't it supposed to naturally pass down to Robert's first born son?

Dany is the youngest child, and as a girl she'd be behind both her brothers anyway. Jon is the son of the Crown Prince, but Rhaegar was already married at the time. Even if he was into bigamy like Aegon I and his sister-wives, as is the popular theory, that doesn't make a secret wedding to Lyanna automatically binding seeing as unlike Aegon the Conqueror, Rhaegar was never a reigning monarch and had no dragons. A secret wedding only gives Jon a claim for a disputed succession, and seeing as Jon has no interest in the Iron Throne and would have to be forced onto it, I see no reason Dany should yield her claim to his.

Ned told Stannis about the twincest and Stannis told most everyone else, that was kind of his thing. Renly just didn't care either way. But without proof of paternity, all the truth did was give Stannis a claim to take the throne by force. Just like Jon's hidden paternity and/or a secret wedding won't automatically make the throne his. If Jon ever does sit that iron chair it won't be just because of his weirdo brother/cousin's visions.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Lady S.

[BitterApple]

Dragonstone really is hideous. Even some plants and a few artfully placed knick knacks couldn't save that monstrosity of a throne room.

[riley702]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:18 PM, Daisy said:

I have to say (to aid in LH's acting), Cersei has known since she was a little girl that she'd be Queen, have 3 kids and those 3 kids would die for her to be on the throne. That is incredibly terribly complex. She's a mom, as she said - she's nursed Myrcella, she's so protective of all her children. but she knew always they'd die and she'd be on the throne. so is she really sad? or taking every opportunity to hurt/eliminate a threat. As Ellaria is, as Tyrion is to her. I don't even think she took a moment to mourn Tommen. Not properly.

She was already queen as Robert's wife. I didn't think anything in that prophecy even hinted she'd be queen in her own right, much less that it would happen after all her children were dead.

[Lady S.]

2 minutes ago, riley702 said:

She was already queen as Robert's wife. I didn't think anything in that prophecy even hinted she'd be queen in her own right, much less that it would happen after all her children were dead.

Yeah, she clearly believed Marg was the YMBQ and Marg was just another queen consort. And "I will be Queen?" to the witch was in response to being told she'd marry the king. I don't think li'l Cersei would have any reason to expect to be a ruling queen when that was unheard of in Westeros and she had no claim to the throne. Back in s5 she didn't even bother to name herself Tommen's Hand, saying she knew it would be improper for a woman to do that when Kevan challenged her about sitting in Tywin's chair. She had to go through a lot and kill a lot of people to get the point of just seizing the throne. Up til then she'd tried to just rule through her sons and would have been happy enough if Tommen could just be her puppet with no influence from Marg.

[ImpinAintEasy]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

Dany is the youngest child, and as a girl she'd be behind both her brothers anyway. Jon is the son of the Crown Prince, but Rhaegar was already married at the time. Even if he was into bigamy like Aegon I and his sister-wives, as is the popular theory, that doesn't mean a secret wedding to Lyanna automatically binding seeing as unlike Aegon the Conqueror, Rhaegar was never a reigning monarch and had no dragons. A secret wedding only gives Jon a claim for a disputed succession, and seeing as Jon has no interest in the Iron Throne and would have to be forced onto it, I see no reason Dany should yield her claim to his.

Ned told Stannis about the twincest and Stannis told most everyone else, that was kind of his thing. Renly just didn't care either way. But without proof of paternity, all the truth did was give Stannis a claim to take the throne by force. Just like a Jon's hidden paternity and/or a secret wedding won't be automatically make the throne his. If Jon ever does sit that iron chair it won't be just because of his weirdo brother/cousin's visions.

 

Yes. I have a hard time believing Jon would jump over Dany even if it is revealed and accepted that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Jon is only becoming king if Dany dies, IMO.  Unless they go for the happy ending where they both live and he becomes king consort. Which I can't see happening. One or both has to die for the ending to be bittersweet. It may be easier to kill both. However, there aren't many good options for end game monarch other than one of them. And I do expect there to still be a monarchy at the end. 

[paigow]

Besides a teleporter, Littlefinger must have access to Skynet if he can simulate ALL possible permutations of EVERY situation...

[riley702]

Eh, it's just more blather from the braggart. He needs to believe he's the best mind in the kingdom, because that's how he's going to end up on the throne (he thinks). He's also desperately trying to appear relevant and valuable to Sansa. So, blah, blah, blahcakes.

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

Besides a teleporter, Littlefinger must have access to Skynet if he can simulate ALL possible permutations of EVERY situation...

Littlefinger would make an awesome Skynet King, a "human" representation of skynet a la Borg Queen  

[Ki-in]

I really liked Davos when he told Danerys that Jon, although a bastard, was CHOSEN by all of the North and Wildlings and other assorted sons of bitches to be their leader which holds much more weight than merely being born to it. 

Cersei, her relationship with her brother is icky, gross and weird but I do admire her not giving a fuck attitude about it. And as far as not giving a fuck, her children are dead so she has no reason to feel restrained in anything she does. She's lost everything and has nothing more to lose (except her life). While she is horrible I do feel a little for her. She was forced into a marriage (probably at a very young age) with a man that treated her poorly. I'm not rooting for her but I do see where she's coming from with her motivations. 

Ollenna went down like a boss. She was pure gold(en roses).

I'm fine with the characters making mistakes and wrong decisions. As much as I scream "why the fuck did you do that" at the tv, if they made the right decisions and every thing went their way then the show would have been over by now and would have been very boring.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Ki-in

[penelope79]

On 31/7/2017 at 6:39 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain Jaime knew Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, or at least he didn't believe it. He tells Tyrion as much, and you know, he did save his life by freeing him. His problem with Tyrion is that he killed their father afterwards. I still think the show runners are keeping Jaime loyal to Cersei for so long because they want it to be more surprising when he kills her. It's a choice that has unfortunately stunted his development as a character.

I agree, Jaime never believed that Tyrion killed Joffrey. He even told Cersei as much. I guess it will be a huge surprise for her, since she's still convinced that Tyrion & Sansa murdered her beloved, sweet child.

I think Jaime promised to kill Tyrion because he killed their father, although I always wondered why that was so shocking for him: after all, Tywin just sentenced his own child to death and clearly couldn't wait for it.

 

On 31/7/2017 at 5:24 PM, ShannaB said:

I have no problem with the way Bran is acting because he really isn't Bran anymore.  I think he feels a familial bond but he has a purpose and is all seeing.  I thought Sansa's reaction to Bran 's vision about her wedding was perfect.  We saw a similar reaction with Varys  when Melisandre told him about his death.  Both Sansa and Varys were shaken to their core.

I agree, but at the beginning I felt Bran's reaction was utterly underwhelming (while Sansa's brought me to tears).

 

14 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

When brooding Tyrion nudged brooding Jon about "is there anything you'd like to ask?", I swear I thought he was hinting that Jon should ask for Dany's hand in marriage. Dragonglass? Oh sure, that too.

Felt very tense during the whole awkward throne room convo, afraid one side would commit an unforgivable faux pas. Didn't expect the Jon-Dany interactions to be a slow-ish burn; I like that they're kind of learning about each other's motivations and similarities in a gradual way. It almost feels quaint and sweet in the shit-hole world that is Westeros.

I liked this episode very much, and I'm not ashamed to admit that one of the reasons is because I'm really satisfied by Jon/Daenerys first meeting. It was unexpectedly funny and I do felt the chemistry between Emilia and Kit (specially on their second meeting). Upon review, I also noticed some subtlety I missed at first: Jon and Daenerys keep looking at the each other when Dany gets closer and Tyrion and Davos are speaking on their behaf. While Jon seemed smitten by Dany as soon as he saw her, she softens in their second scene, when they're alone and she informs him he can mine the dragonglass. And everybody keep mentioning they have to get to know each other, to the point that I thought: "Wow, they're about to set them up on a date!" :) Hence, I like too the slow burn in their relationship.

 

I don't know you guys, but as soon as I saw Cersei sporting a red lipstick I just KNEW she was about to kill Tyene the same way Ellaria killed Myrcella.

 

As for Tyrion, who is failing as a war strategist, I think it's a bit unfair to blame him. I honestly think both strategies were good, but in war results are not always granted. Besides, I had to suspend my disbelief concerning Euron because, unless there's actually a mole in Daenerys' team, I really can't see HOW he could know that Yara and Theon were escorting Ellaria & Co back to Dorne, while the Unsullied were attacking Casterly Rock. I mean I can see how Jaime, who knows Tyrion very well, could correctly guess the attack at Casterly Rock, but definitively not where the Greyjoys were heading and with who.

I just hope the mole is not Varys.

And if there is no mole, then I need an explanation for Euron's capability to foresee the future, since he's no Bran Stark.

Edited August 2, 2017 by penelope79

[BitterApple]

34 minutes ago, Ki-in said:

While she is horrible I do feel a little for her. She was forced into a marriage (probably at a very young age) with a man that treated her poorly. 

I agree. As much as Dany annoys me, it's nice to see her and Cersei giving the ultimate F.U. to the men who treated then like chattel by succeeding and moving into positions of power. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by BitterApple

[CeeBeeGee]

Also, regarding the idea that Danaerys is somehow hypocritical in setting slaves free and then expecting them to be her subjects--I feel this viewpoint is unrealistic. This is the Westerosi world--medieval, feudal, authoritarian and violent. There are no democracies or republics in this world, at least none of which I know (not sure how Bravos is ruled but if they're based on the Republic of Venice as they appear to be, there would be a Doge-figure who was elected, yes, but by an oligarchy, not by "the people"). Westeros is not going to transition into democracy any time soon. Realistically it's going to stay a monarchy and Danaerys would be at the very least a kind monarch and much better than Cersei.

 

Re: Lady O's bombshell: if Jaime tells Cersei, I doubt it will change her mind. People don't like to admit they're wrong. And part of me always thought after her first reaction she knew she was wrong, but this was an opportunity to get rid of Tyrion. 

[CletusMusashi]

I asume that the reason Euron's fleet seems to be everywhere is that he's spread the fleet out. None of the things we've seen him do require a thousand ships in one place. Twenty or thirty in the right place at the right time is more than sufficient. What he needs more than super travel speed is a really good communications system. So what are they doing, checking in at the local post office every day fo raven messages?

[Couver]

15 hours ago, doram said:

I thought the idea was to keep Ellaria alive indefinitely, keeping her daughter's rotten flesh company. Cersei said something about force-feeding her if she tried to starve herself. 

But how well ventilated is that dungeon? Won't the smell of decay poison her?

I think you're right. I just assumed Ellaria would eventually be killed once Tyene had decomposed sufficiently. I can't see Cersei just keeping her alive forever. She likely wouldn't be suffering just looking at bleached bones in a year or so.

And yeah I don't think being around rotting flesh like that is healthy. She would probably catch something and die.

I hope the show gives us some sort of throwaway line about Dorne at least. I was watching a clip yesterday and Doran specifically mentions that Ellaria is mother to 4 of his nieces. So there should still be 3 of Oberyn's daughters in Dorne.

[enoughcats]

8 hours ago, riley702 said:

He needs to believe he's the best mind in the kingdom, because that's how he's going to end up on the throne (he thinks).

His odds of being / becoming the best mind in the kingdom increase every Sunday night as the other possibly good minds get killed off rapidly. 

Surviving has a lot going for it (Varys seeming to have this side of survival mastered.)

[DarkRaichu]

47 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

I asume that the reason Euron's fleet seems to be everywhere is that he's spread the fleet out. None of the things we've seen him do require a thousand ships in one place. Twenty or thirty in the right place at the right time is more than sufficient. What he needs more than super travel speed is a really good communications system. So what are they doing, checking in at the local post office every day fo raven messages?

Nope. Euron just had a very good cell phone coverage when he was on the sea :P

[TV Anonymous]

On 7/31/2017 at 11:39 PM, paigow said:

• Dorne has civilian & merchant ships that could be "rented"
• Davos might have some pirate buddies that survived Blackwater Bay
• Daario could find some ships around Meereen, Astapor etc...

Dorne? Who rules Dorne? Is such person an ally to Daenarys?

[taanja]

On 7/31/2017 at 5:52 PM, kieyra said:

I understand the explanation of why Bran is now a robot, but don't understand why, out of all the things he could have said to Sansa, he went with "you sure looked pretty that night you were raped".

He didn't say the night "you were raped" he said the "night of your wedding"-- maybe he is referring to a different wedding? One in the future?

Ok maybe that's a stretch because he told her he was sorry that all the bad things that happened to her happened at Winterfell. Either way I like that scene. 

[charmed1]

13 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Dragonstone really is hideous. Even some plants and a few artfully placed knick knacks couldn't save that monstrosity of a throne room.

Tyrion, send a raven to the Property Brothers...and tell them to bend the knee.

[CeeBeeGee]

5 minutes ago, charmed1 said:

Tyrion, send a raven to the Property Brothers...and tell them to bend the knee.

I'm sure they've had plenty of practice.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Couver said:

I hope the show gives us some sort of throwaway line about Dorne at least. I was watching a clip yesterday and Doran specifically mentions that Ellaria is mother to 4 of his nieces. So there should still be 3 of Oberyn's daughters in Dorne.

Two of them were killed during Euron's attack. But that does leave one...

[Gobi]

10 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Littlefinger would make an awesome Skynet King, a "human" representation of skynet a la Borg Queen  

He had better be careful, he'll be up against two Sarah Connors.

[Macbeth]

I liked in a previous episode when Mel encouraged Dany to let Jon tell his story.  Melissandre didn't you notice that communicating is not Jon's greatest strength.  Or really a strength.

But he does have a terrible problem regarding his own resurrection.  How do you differentiate between the resurrected dead army and himself?

Tyrion- "So you were resurrected also. Like the army of the dead?"

Jon - "No there is a difference....(trails off)"

Tyrion - "Because if they are like you I don't see the problem."

The writers know what Jon's limitations are, and there is no way for Jon to explain.  IMO. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Two of them were killed during Euron's attack. But that does leave one...

Those 2 were not biological daughters of Ellaria... Oberyn is bio-dad of an unknown number of children...

Edited August 2, 2017 by paigow

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Two of them were killed during Euron's attack. But that does leave one...

No, those two were Oberyn's by other women. He told Cersei that he had 8 daughters in total, so Doran would have been referring to the half of Oberyn's brood actually birthed by Ellaria. I assume she left the eldest and/or craziest of her remaining daughters in charge before leaving for Dragonstone, as she and the three dead Sandsnakes would all be busy in the planned siege of King's Landing. But I don't expect the show to actually address those details.

 

9 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Also, regarding the idea that Danaerys is somehow hypocritical in setting slaves free and then expecting them to be her subjects--I feel this viewpoint is unrealistic. This is the Westerosi world--medieval, feudal, authoritarian and violent. There are no democracies or republics in this world, at least none of which I know (not sure how Bravos is ruled but if they're based on the Republic of Venice as they appear to be, there would be a Doge-figure who was elected, yes, but by an oligarchy, not by "the people"). Westeros is not going to transition into democracy any time soon. Realistically it's going to stay a monarchy and Danaerys would be at the very least a kind monarch and much better than Cersei.

Yeah, Varys Mr. for the people still thinks only in terms of finding the best or least bad monarch to rule over them. (Seems like most people thought Dany was unreasonable with Varys last week, but he did conspire to sell her to the Dothraki and never gave a straight answer about knowledge of her brother's unfitness, even though Jorah and Illyrio were both reporting to him and could have answered any questions about Viserys.) Dany has never claimed to be purely benevolent with all her fire and blood proclamations, but she has also liberated people. Missandei and Grey Worm and the rest would hotly protest any argument that they were not freed. Freeing people from Lannister tyranny would also be a big help. Sure, she could be a bit less Stannis-like in expecting homage from Westorosi as soon as she meets them, but the only Westerosi king who wouldn't expect his subjects to bend the knee was Mance Rayder. (There's been references to a Sealord of Braavos, so I guess that position was their elected leader of the oligarchy.)

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Those 2 were not biological daughters of Ellaria... Oberyn is bio-dad of an unknown number of children...

 

1 minute ago, Lady S. said:

No, those two were Oberyn's by other women. He told Cersei that he had 8 daughters in total, so Doran would have been referring to the half of Oberyn's brood actually birthed by Ellaria. I assume she left the eldest and/or craziest of her remaining daughters in charge before leaving for Dragonstone, as she and the three dead Sandsnakes would all be busy in the planned siege of King's Landing. But I don't expect the show to actually address those details.

Ah well, to damned complicated to keep them straight. Especially with the differences between the books and the show. (not discussing the book, but checking the lineage is a bitch when here are two versions)

[CeeBeeGee]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

 

Ah well, to damned complicated to keep them straight. Especially with the differences between the books and the show. (not discussing the book, but checking the lineage is a bitch when here are two versions)

This is a really good TV-only wiki (they have notes at the bottom describing how the books' depictions differ but you have to scroll way down). It's good to keep your head cleared, so you don't get confused by the books.

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

This is a really good TV-only wiki (they have notes at the bottom describing how the books' depictions differ but you have to scroll way down). It's good to keep your head cleared, so you don't get confused by the books.

I read the books, (but prefer the no books forum, as we're beyond the books at this point). Frankly the Sand Snakes weren't interesting to me in either format, so I didn't pay much attention to the lineage and made an incorrect assumption, which was justly corrected. Ellaria, however, is a far more interesting character on TV, thanks to the actress, in part.  

That is a great wiki, thanks for the link. 

[DarkRaichu]

With the show winding down and with shortened seasons I'd rather showrunners kill off characters and not introduce too many new ones.  I'd like to think without any strong willed leader, the people of Dornes are too preoccupied with orgies to notice the wars between the kingdoms :P 

[Star Aristille]

A few things.

Loved Cersei's scene with Ellaria and Tyene.  Lena Headey was definitely excellent, and she made me believe that Cersei was absolutely furious at Ellaria over Myrcella's completely pointless murder.  I don't get why anyone would doubt Cersei loved her children.  I think she's a stone-cold, evil monster of a bitch, to be sure.  But I never saw one thing from her that made me think she didn't care about her children.  And I did feel a bit for Tyene, since she had nothing to do with Myrcella's death.  But it makes sense.  A daughter for a daughter.

One thing I didn't understand is that Cersei basically told Ellaria that she totally got why she killed Myrcella.  Yet . . . why did she want to go through with her plans for her and Tyene, anyway?

Aw.  I was disappointed that Jon and Davos didn't see Melissandre.  I really wanted Davos to at least go off on her one more time.  But at least she does sound like she regrets what happened with Shireen, so there's that.  But I wonder what she sees happening to or with Varys?

Speaking of Varys, what if him popping up to help Tyrion last season (or was it season five?) was a bit too convenient?  What if he's been keeping tabs on him and sending news back to either Cersei or Jaime?  Could be how they knew of the plan to go after Casterley Rock.

I don't totally get why Jon cut Davos off when he was just about to bring up his resurrection.  I . . . really don't.  That might've swayed Dany to their side much sooner.

While I'm glad that Sansa's reunited with another sibling, I'm a bit stunned that everyone's so surprised that it was Bran.  I knew it wouldn't be Arya.  Maisie's name wasn't even in the opening sequence tonight.  But Bran's portrayer's name (already forgotten it) was.

Speaking of Bran . . . is this the same actor?  I'd heard that he was recast with a new actor from the end of season four to his return at the start of season six.

Damn.  Was so sad to lose Olenna.  But like everyone else here, I am so happy that she got the last word in on Jaime.

Good episode.

[Popples]

6 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

While I'm glad that Sansa's reunited with another sibling, I'm a bit stunned that everyone's so surprised that it was Bran.  I knew it wouldn't be Arya.  Maisie's name wasn't even in the opening sequence tonight.  But Bran's portrayer's name (already forgotten it) was.

Speaking of Bran . . . is this the same actor?  I'd heard that he was recast with a new actor from the end of season four to his return at the start of season six.

I knew it would be Bran instead of Arya because the Wall is much closer to Winterfell than the Riverlands.

Bran has always been played by Isaac Hempstead Wright. He wasn't in season five because the showrunners felt that watching him train in a cave for a season wouldn't make the most compelling storyline. They did recast the actor who played the Three-Eyed Raven.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Speaking of Bran . . . is this the same actor?  I'd heard that he was recast with a new actor from the end of season four to his return at the start of season six.

Yep, it's the same boy. I double-checked in IMDB. It's been six years since the start of the show - and he started sprouting up very quickly, as I recall. At least, unlike the boy in the Americans, his character is already sitting or prone most of the time, so they didn't have to hide his height.  Isaac's face did change considerably, so it's not surprising it seems like someone else is playing Bran.

[BitterApple]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but when the Maester mentioned there were copies of every raven scroll sent to Winterfell, I wondered if Sansa is eventually going to find Littlefinger's communications with the Boltons. That could be interesting.

[enoughcats]

9 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Speaking of Varys, what if him popping up to help Tyrion last season (or was it season five?) was a bit too convenient?  What if he's been keeping tabs on him and sending news back to either Cersei or Jaime?  Could be how they knew of the plan to go after Casterley Rock.

For a eunuch, the dude definitely gets around.  Where does his money come from?  Or does he work for the Bank as a puppet master?  

Does anyone recall Varys telling someone about his (V's) backstory and which episode that happened it?  I wonder if there might be more about his loyalty there.  His comments to Dany could either be true or tailored to what he, as puppet master, knows she wants to hear. 

[dangwoodchucks]

Bran's delivery of his "I'm the three-eyed raven" line totally reminded me and my husband of the department store scene in "A Christmas Story" and the weird kid wearing goggles telling Ralphie, "I like Santa".

[paigow]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Does anyone recall Varys telling someone about his (V's) backstory and which episode that happened it?  

He told Tyrion in the jailbreak episode....explaining why there was a handy shipping crate lying around...

[Calamity Jane]

OK, I'm entirely hetero and I enjoy the pretty guys on this show, but I have to say, Missandei's style of dress on Dragonstone makes me miss her Meereen get-ups.  Still gorgeous, of course, but she was a show-stopper in Meereen.  

[Miss Dee]

On 01/08/2017 at 10:42 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

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I figured Podrick would be the Master of Cuninglingus

Maybe he and Podrick could have a contest.  Call if the War of Two Kings

I volunteer as tribute!!!!

[crowceilidh]

Quote

Dragonstone is the one best place best suited to host dragons.

I wish we'd seen a couple of shots of dragons on the parapets or in the throne room, or whatever.  

 

 

 

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