S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Alapaki]

26 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

- Where the hell are these 40,000 Dothrakis and their HORSES ? We saw how big Dothraki's encampment was last season and Dragonstone is not that big :P

And how is she feeding them?  Dragonstone is a series of volcanic islands.  I doubt there must edible vegetation.  I'd imagine that Stannis would've had to get food stores from his bannerman on the mainland.  But those stores would surely be gone by this point.  And could Yara's fleet really carry enough supplies to feed everyone on the voyage across the Sea and then for any real period of time once they landed?

21 minutes ago, Triskan said:

"They just like severed heads, really."

Euron, summing up the rotten people of KL in one very fine line. 

Thus far, the folks who understand this seem to be winning.  The ones who don't (which include Dany's braintrust) are failing.  Olenna warned Dany about that last week.  And Jaime paraphrased the same thing to Olenna when they met at Highgarden.  

From the conversation between Cersei and the Iron Bank it appears that everyone is treating the Sept explosion with a wink-and-a-nod "oh, well, must have been a leaky gas line", with (Im)plausible-deniability on Cersei's end.

Dany needs to demonstrate that she can play in that arena herself.  

It's the old "is it better to be loved or feared?" question.

[DarkRaichu]

I do not have any problem with the wooden reaction from Bran.  The last time we had any emotional reaction from him was when he realized he was responsible for Hodor being Hodor.  He looked wooden ever since.  Looking back in time to see all of the horrible things people in Westeros did to each other must have numb any feelings he had towards humanity in general

[nodorothyparker]

5 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Maybe there's some network of worm-holes leading from Blackwater Bay to various plot-relevant locations around Westeros.  Next week, Euron shows up at Eastwatch by the Sea.

For all the various complaints that the show has stripped book Euron of all of his weird quasi wizardry, maybe teleporting an entire fleet of ships that he conjured up out of lumber from nonexistent trees is his real magical power.  I'm going with it because I'm quite enjoying this portrayal of a villain who unlike most of the Ironborn we've seen is fully aware that they got the shittiest portion of Westeros and have largely been regarded as only slightly less mockable than the Freys on the scale of Great Westerosi Badasses.

[screamin]

8 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Unfortunately Bran's visions are book cannon.  I never liked Bran's story line once I saw he was destined to become a tree. 

As for his omniscience - a great deal of his information would have been a great deal more useful way earlier in the show.  Now it's just like "Thank Bran for reminding me about my rape.  If only you had showed up before I made the choice to marry Ramsay."

Yeah, but in the book at least the visions had some limits, like Bran at first only being able to see things that happened near weirwood trees or through warged animals. But with the vision at the Tower of Joy - with nary a tree in sight, indoors and out - it kind of took off any possible limits on what can be seen anywhere, anytime - which still seems lazy to me. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by screamin

[MrsR]

34 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

- Can anyone explain how Euron was able to go south to ambush Yara (on the way to Dorne), went back north to KL for his hero welcome, go south ALL THE WAY AROUND the south of the continent and up to Casterly Rock in LESS TIME than Gery Worm who went directly from Dragonstone to CR ??????  Aside from Jetpacks and teleporters :P  Seriously this took me out of the episode...

Frankly I couldn't give a rats ass about travel arrangements.  I don't watch this show to see travel agents and raven exchanges between the Travelocity guy. Frankly I'm baffled by the obsession with this matter.  Time and space has always been compressed in cinema and TV.

Not one second of precious screen time should be wasted on it. Thank goodness D&D feel the same way.

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

For all the various complaints that the show has stripped book Euron of all of his weird quasi wizardry, maybe teleporting an entire fleet of ships that he conjured up out of lumber from nonexistent trees is his real magical power.  I'm going with it because I'm quite enjoying this portrayal of a villain who unlike most of the Ironborn we've seen is fully aware that they got the shittiest portion of Westeros and have largely been regarded as only slightly less mockable than the Freys on the scale of Great Westerosi Badasses.

Also to be fair, he is the only competent Ironborn in the series.  Ironborns are pretty useless in general, just looked at how Ramsay killed a dozen of light armored Irobnborn with a small sword and in his nightgown  

[Edith]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Of course he's both.  And maybe I'm reading the comments wrong, but I feel like a lot of people are trying to say he's not a Stark at all, and therefore not "ice" at all.  

I'm merely pointing out that maybe we should also consider nurture vs. nature - in the patriarchal society, he isn't really a Stark, but he was *raised* as a Stark.  

I'm not saying he's not a Stark or that he's not Ice, I'm just pointing out that he's both. 

That's why I mentioned one of Melisandre mistakes about Stannis being AA because she thought he was born in Dragonstone. This is just her failing again in her interpretation because she doesn't know who are Jon's real parents. If she knew, maybe she wouldn't call Jon just Ice. That's the whole point. 

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

Also to be fair, he is the only competent Ironborn in the series.  Ironborns are pretty useless in general, just looked at how Ramsay killed a dozen of light armored Irobnborn with a small sword and in his nightgown  

This is actually how I would have liked all of the Ironborn to be if we were to take them seriously as Viking wannabes.  I know I would have found them far less tedious. 

[DarkRaichu]

Just now, MrsR said:

Frankly I couldn't give a rats ass about travel arrangements.  I don't watch this show to see travel agents and raven exchanges between the Travelocity guy. Frankly I'm baffled by the obsession with this matter.  Time and space has always been compressed in cinema and TV.

Not one second of precious screen time should be wasted on it. Thank goodness D&D feel the same way.

I agree in general, EXCEPT in this instance his lighspeed travel was INTEGRAL in the defeat of 2 squadrons of Dany's army, thus the plotline

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

Ned died, and Stannis turned on The King in the North as a mere rebel against his rightful rule, and had his sorceress make a spell to kill Robb.

Wow, so Sansa knows that Stannis burned leeches to kill Robb? She is even more omniscient than Bran!

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

It applies to the Vale lords, who held fealty to the Lannisters during Robb's rebellion.

The Vale Lords were neutral during the WOT5K. Tywin send LF there to marry Lysa and get control of the Vale.

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

It applies to Tyrion.

Yeah, and Sansa thinks that he is setting traps for Jon.

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

But Sansa and everyone else also takes into account how all these people helped them in the past despite their former fealties to the enemy in judging them. LF helped Jon and Sansa; it would be weird NOT to count that in his favor when judging him for not immediately joining Ned in what looked like a hopeless challenge to the throne in KL. If they try to avenge everyone who has ever been on a different side at SOME point in the wars, they'd have few supporters left.

If helping them should erase all his past crimes that Sansa knows he did - support Joffrey against Ned and Robb, frame her for Joffrey's murder, manipulate, betray and murder her aunt, manipulate her cousin in the Vale, manipulate her into marrying Ramsay - if this all about second chances, then why is she unwilling to give the innocent children of the Umbers and Karstarks a second chance? Don't they need all the support they can get instead of new enemies?

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

An active betrayal, however, is a different matter. 

And again, if Sansa knows nothing of this betrayal, then why does she call Ned a fool?

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I know this is Westeros time, but for shit's sake, can someone explain how much time is passing between some of these scenes? In consecutive scenes for the character:

• Euron and his ENTIRE fleet built from trees that didn't exist wherever he was as someone else pointed out, goes from some point on the sea between Dragonstone (off the northeast coast of Westeros, north of KL) and Dorne (extreme SE of Westeros), to King's Landing (which according to the map is on the central east coast of Westeros).
• RETURNS to KL with the gift, so he either caught the fleet right outside of Dragonstone and Blackwater Bay (which seems unlikely given that they were taken by surprise, having a fleet that size lurking too close is a way to get spotted and then roasted by dragons)
• Then shows up in the waters off of Casterly Rock, which is on the WEST COAST of Westeros, necessitating his sailing from King's Landing, through the Arm, around the south coast of Westeros, then past Highgarden and Old Town to Casterly Rock...all JUST in time to get there right behind the Unsullied?

I can't explain Euron and his magical trees. But it's possible that his fleet is split into two or three, and in different places. He does have a thousand ships after all. At least with Casterly Rock, we can say that the Iron Islands are also on the west coast, so it would be easier for him to get whatever ships he left there to attack. Casterly Rock is also inland, so there's that. 

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Frankly I couldn't give a rats ass about travel arrangements.  I don't watch this show to see travel agents and raven exchanges between the Travelocity guy. Frankly I'm baffled by the obsession with this matter.  Time and space has always been compressed in cinema and TV.

Not one second of precious screen time should be wasted on it. Thank goodness D&D feel the same way.

The complaint isn't about seeing the mechanics or the nitty gritty. It's about the implausibility of the blink and they're there movements.  It takes away from enjoying watching the Lannister brothers and their competing strategies, when one side has access to wormholes that the other does not. It's no longer a battle of wits if one side has a magic wand, a time travel machine, or just a damn good travel agent.  The "how" isn't the issue. The "it happened" is the issue. It can pull the audience out of the show.

[mac123x]

9 minutes ago, maystone said:

Euron isn't with the Ironborn fleet that attacked the Unsullied at Casterly Rock. Also, someone asked earlier why they didn't just attack Dany's ships in open ocean: it's much more effective to trap her fleet in the bay where they can't maneuver.

His ship certainly was.  Greyworm looked down at the attacking fleet and the camera zoomed in on it.

 

2 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Frankly I couldn't give a rats ass about travel arrangements.  I don't watch this show to see travel agents and raven exchanges between the Travelocity guy. Frankly I'm baffled by the obsession with this matter.  Time and space has always been compressed in cinema and TV.

Not one second of precious screen time should be wasted on it. Thank goodness D&D feel the same way.

It breaks the internal logic of the show in order to make drama and for plot convenience.  If this was a different squadron of Ironborn ships attacking outside Casterly Rock I could buy it, but they made the point of showing Euron's ship. 

[Maximum Taco]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

And again, if Sansa knows nothing of this betrayal, then why does she call Ned a fool?

He went south (which as evidenced is a dumb move for almost every Stark), he opposed the Queen, he tried to dethrone the King, he tried to do it all with no standing army loyal to him, he told pretty much everyone exactly what he was planning to do with not even a pretense of subterfuge.

Sansa knew he did all that stuff. Take your pick.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[stagmania]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Anyways, the Winterfell scenes did not do much for me this episode. Bran was stoned out and creepy and Meera vanished without a trace. I missed Arya this episode. Hope she gets home next episode and shakes things up.

I really would've preferred a Meera/Sansa scene if Bran was just going to be a tree. Meera could actually explain who she is, why she came, what she and her brother did for Bran and why he's like this now. We didn't need to see all that exposition dump, but I could've done with Meera being shown some respect and gratitude from someone.

11 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

Jon: He (Tyrion) likes to talk.  Dany:  We all like what we're good at.  This was funny as hell until Jon was a total buzzkill with his emo 'not me' shit. I was underwhelmed by their chemistry as many others have said, but saw some glimpses here that gave me hope.

I think the buzzkill emo moment was actually pretty important. Dany took note of his words, and seemed to instantly feel more at ease. It communicated to her that this is not a man who's after her power or her throne. It's the first step toward trusting him. 

9 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Many people think Jamie loves Brienne, I've always thought that what he saw in Brienne was the man he could have been had his life been very differently. For me it has always been clear that Cersei is the love of his life, has always been. If anyone has any doubts about that, just rewacth their scene in bed, the way he looks at her after everything she has done. Nikolaj Coster Waldau did an awesome job too, though I don't feel sorry for Jamie at all.

I never thought Jaime had any romantic feelings toward Brienne; rather, he seems to admire her because she's a genuinely good person, and honorable in ways he will never be. He respects her. He has eyes for no one but Cersei on the romance front, which is ultimately pretty tragic for him.

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

But, yeah.  The inability to control the Dragons without putting the Queen at risk is a pretty serious flaw.

If they had ever discussed this issue before, I might buy it, but since they never bothered to set it up, it comes across as a very transparent excuse to keep Dany from defeating Team Cersei too soon. All we've heard about for years is how Dany has ~three dragons~ and will be unstoppable; now using the dragons is too dangerous? So lame.

30 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I know this is Westeros time, but for shit's sake, can someone explain how much time is passing between some of these scenes?

It's officially comical how fast things are happening. Anyone binge watching this show in the future is going to get whiplash from the abrupt pacing switch. One gets the sense that this could've been at least two full seasons, but the showrunners are over it and want to rush through the rest.

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thinking it over, I've decided I'm officially hostile to the showrunners' notion of Bran's total omniscence. It seems to be a get-out-of-jail free card to just allow Bran to come up with any information wanted at any given time, without real limits or need for investigation or proof. It smacks to me of lazy writing.

Definitely feels like a deus ex machina that they'll use whenever they want without establishing any firm rules or boundaries.

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

And again, if Sansa knows nothing of this betrayal, then why does she call Ned a fool?

Because if you don't know that Ned thought he had the military support of the Gold Cloaks behind him when he marched into the Throne Room to arrest Cersei and Joffrey (and Sansa does not know it), his actions DO look like that of a fool...marching in there with only his own men from WF, outnumbered, and easily overpowered. 

Did Sansa actually call Ned a fool? I don't remember.

Edited July 31, 2017 by screamin

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Man, Cersei is the worst. I keep saying it but maybe THIS is it for Jaime now. He now knows that Tyrion wasn't responsible for Joffrey's death.

Seriously-- how much damage was caused by that colossal error in judgment by Cersei to assume it was Tyrion. (Tyrion's trial by combat led to Oberon's death-- which led to all the Dorne carnage (myrcella/ the coup) not to mention the death of Tywin and the death/zombification of the Mountain).   

Also, it led to Tyrion/Varys backing Dany.  

When the chickens come home to roost for Cersei (and it can't happen soon enough) I don't know if there is a punishment suitable enough for what her hatred/need for vengeance has wrought. 

And I know the producers like the actress but the way she over-enunciates EVERYTHING really raises my hackles. I've seen her in other things-- she hasn't bugged me in other roles-- but her Cersei voice is gawd-awful.

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

He went south (which as evidenced is a dumb move for almost every Stark), he opposed the Queen, he tried to dethrone the King, he tried to do it all with no standing army loyal to him, he told pretty much everyone exactly what he was planning to do with not even a pretense of subterfuge.

Take your pick.

So Ned was supposed to detect before he even went south that things were that dangerous in KL?

As for the rest, the way Ned went about doing things was what got him into trouble - he spilled the beans to Cersei and expected LF's help - both are things that Sansa supposedly does not know.

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

Because if you don't know that Ned thought he had the military support of the Gold Cloaks behind him when he marched into the Throne Room to arrest Cersei and Joffrey (and Sansa does not know it), his actions DO look like that of a fool...marching in there with only his own men from WF, outnumbered, and easily overpowered.

So, Sansa thought that Ned walked in alone to arrest Cersei and Joffrey without any support and hence called him a fool? lol! People should stop listening to her. She knows nothing about anything.

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[DarkRaichu]

11 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I can't explain Euron and his magical trees. But it's possible that his fleet is split into two or three, and in different places. He does have a thousand ships after all. At least with Casterly Rock, we can say that the Iron Islands are also on the west coast, so it would be easier for him to get whatever ships he left there to attack. Casterly Rock is also inland, so there's that. 

Except that Eurom was on the KL (east coast) just the day before attack on Casterly Rock.  I can fanwank cavalry army going to CR from KL in 1 day by land but Euron's armada is navy based and they have to sail halfway around the continent from KL to CR.

Also CAsterly Rock is on a cliff facing the ocean as shown

Edited July 31, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Ned was supposed to detect before he even went south that things were shady in KL?

As for the rest, the way Ned went about doing things was what got him into trouble - he spilled the beans to Cersei and expected LF's help - both are things that Sansa supposedly does not know. So she is calling him a fool for going to KL?

She's calling him a fool for not realizing that things work differently in the South then they do in the North. And yes Ned should realize this.

She's calling him a fool for expecting everyone to be as married to law and order and honour and what's right as he is. Even if she doesn't know he spilled the beans to Cersei, she knows he spilled the beans to her, "a stupid girl" to use her own vernacular. A smart person would play their cards close to the vest. I don't doubt that Sansa wonders if Ned would still be alive if he was a bit more like Littlefinger. 

She's calling him a fool for marching into the Red Keep with a handful of men, and demanding the King to step down, with a paper shield.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Last season the Blackfish told Jaime that Riverrun had two years worth of food to wait out a siege.

I would have thought Highgarden would have even more, and I'm surprised Jaime was able to waltz in.  If war isn't the Tyrell army's forte, as Olenna said, all the less reason to have a battle and just wait out a siege.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Constantinople

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Last season the Blackfish told Jaime that Riverrun had two years worth of food to wait out a siege.

I would have thought Highgarde would have even more, and I'm surprised Jaime was able to waltz in.  If war isn't the Tyrell army's forte, as Olenna said, all the less reason to have a battle and just wait out a siege.

Initially thought the same thing, then remembered that Tarly and likely a number of other abnnermen had turned on house Tyrell, tipping the scales differently. 

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Last season the Blackfish told Jaime that Riverrun had two years worth of food to wait out a siege.

I would have thought Highgarde would have even more, and I'm surprised Jaime was able to waltz in.  If war isn't the Tyrell army's forte, as Olenna said, all the less reason to have a battle and just wait out a siege.

I am going to fanwank that the old Tarly knew the ins and outs of Highgarden and was able to exploit its weaknesses

Edited July 31, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Constantinople]

10 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

Seriously-- how much damage was caused by that colossal error in judgment by Cersei to assume it was Tyrion.

Based on this episode and last week's, Tyrion has been more useful to Cersei has Daenerys's Hand then he ever could have been if he were still serving the Lannister cause

[screamin]

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Ned was supposed to detect before he even went south that things were that dangerous in KL?

As for the rest, the way Ned went about doing things was what got him into trouble - he spilled the beans to Cersei and expected LF's help - both are things that Sansa supposedly does not know.

So  Sansa thought that Ned walked in alone to arrest Cersei and Joffrey without any support and hence called him a fool? lol! People should stop listening to her. She knows nothing about anything, but keeps giving people unnecessary advice.

I didn't say that Ned walked in alone to arrest Cersei and Joffrey without any support. He went in there with (IIRC) fifty of his own men from Winterfell, who all got slaughtered. Sansa knows that everyone in the household was slaughtered - she saw their heads on pikes. She knows that Ned DID rebel against Joffrey because he confessed it in front of her just before he got his head cut off. Sansa thinks that Ned went to arrest Cersei and Joffrey without adequate support because that's exactly what happened. The only thing she does not know is the reason why he went into such a conflict without adequate support - and that reason is LF.

I'm wondering if the evidence against LF somehow contained in the copies of ravenmail might be the letter from Lysa accusing the Lannisters of murdering Jon C? But that would only implicate Lysa, not LF directly. In the books the letter didn't arrive by ravenmail - it arrived hidden in a package. Did the letter arrive by ravenmail on the show?

Edited July 31, 2017 by screamin

[Alapaki]

8 minutes ago, stagmania said:

If they had ever discussed this issue before, I might buy it, but since they never bothered to set it up, it comes across as a very transparent excuse to keep Dany from defeating Team Cersei too soon. All we've heard about for years is how Dany has ~three dragons~ and will be unstoppable; now using the dragons is too dangerous? So lame.

In fairness, iirc there was a scene or two in Mereen which showed that Dany didn't have great control over the Dragons.

But, yes.  I agree.  Having ignored the stuff from the books about the last Targaryen using some sort of spell to control the Dragons makes this plot-point come out of the blue on the show.  

It seems like Cersei is holding court in the Throne Room at the Red Keep all the time.  And, more often than not, Euron is there with her.  How does Varys not know about that?  And why not have Dany mount a surprise aerial  attack in which her Dragons burn the Red Keep to the ground?  Everyone would be so shocked, I doubt anyone would be able to pick up a bow and arrow.

[Dev F]

27 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Frankly I couldn't give a rats ass about travel arrangements.  I don't watch this show to see travel agents and raven exchanges between the Travelocity guy. Frankly I'm baffled by the obsession with this matter.  Time and space has always been compressed in cinema and TV.

But many, many films and shows have done it much better, without making it seem like everything on an entire continent is like five miles from everything else. It matters because it makes an enormous, living world seem phony and small.

And while I understand that there are viewers who don't care about such things and don't mind the shortcutting, I don't get the notion that such shortcutting is therefore an affirmative virtue. Would anyone really be upset because the writers did take care to keep the timeline straight? I think it's more likely that a certain segment of the audience would appreciate the effort, and the rest wouldn't notice. I can't imagine that some viewers would be like, "Why does it seem like it's taking more than a day to cross three kingdoms? I want it to seem like they magically teleport wherever they need to go!"

(I'm always reminded of Mad Men, one of the most tooth-achingly careful shows ever made. The writers would make sure that, like, there was the right level of light outside the windows to match what the weather was like on the corresponding day in history. Very few people noticed or cared, but I never once saw anyone who noticed but thought it detracted from the show somehow. )

Edited July 31, 2017 by Dev F

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I am going to fanwank that the old Tarly knew the ins and outs of Highgarden and was able to exploit its weaknesses

I suppose Olenna was sending the bulk of her forces to KL to join with Dorne's as planned (stupid damn plan).

[MarySNJ]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Ned was supposed to detect before he even went south that things were shady in KL?

As for the rest, the way Ned went about doing things was what got him into trouble - he spilled the beans to Cersei and expected LF's help - both are things that Sansa supposedly does not know. So she is calling him a fool for going to KL?

I think she said that Ned (and Robb) made stupid mistakes. That's not the same as calling him a fool, I think. Because if she's calling him a fool for going to KL, then she's also a fool for thinking Joffrey was her Prince Charming and trusting him even after his treatment of a common boy, her sister and herself in the Arya/Micha/Nymeria mess. 

Ned did make mistakes once he got to KL, because he was basically honor-bound and surrounded by people who were not. He trusted the wrong people.

Well, maybe it's projection on Sansa's part because she also made stupid mistakes until she learned "Southern" lessons. 

[Alapaki]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Last season the Blackfish told Jaime that Riverrun had two years worth of food to wait out a siege.

I would have thought Highgarden would have even more, and I'm surprised Jaime was able to waltz in.  If war isn't the Tyrell army's forte, as Olenna said, all the less reason to have a battle and just wait out a siege.

I think they went there specifically sack Highgarden in order to pay off the Iron Bank.  Killing Olenna was icing on the cake. 

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, MarySNJ said:

I think she said that Ned (and Robb) made stupid mistakes. That's not the same as calling him a fool, I think. Because if she's calling him a fool for going to KL, then she's also a fool for thinking Joffrey was her Prince Charming and trusting him even after his treatment of a common boy, her sister and herself in the Arya/Micha/Nymeria mess. 

Ned did make mistakes once he got to KL, because he was basically honor-bound and surrounded by people who were not. He trusted the wrong people.

Well, maybe it's projection on Sansa's part because she also made stupid mistakes until she learned "Southern" lessons. 

Sansa does call herself a fool and stupid on multiple occasions.

"I was a stupid girl" is pretty much her catchphrase. She's very willing to admit her past mistakes.

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, Edith said:

I'm not saying he's not a Stark or that he's not Ice, I'm just pointing out that he's both. 

That's why I mentioned one of Melisandre mistakes about Stannis being AA because she thought he was born in Dragonstone. This is just her failing again in her interpretation because she doesn't know who are Jon's real parents. If she knew, maybe she wouldn't call Jon just Ice. That's the whole point. 

Stannis wasn't born on Dragonstone, but he was born at Storm's End which is a place of salt at least. Dragonstone is such a cop-out when it comes to that stupid prophecy though, when people are trying to fit what they have into it. Rhaegar was guilty of it, Cersei is guilty of it, Mel is guilty of it. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Cersei's wig bugs and distracts me more than it should!

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

She's calling him a fool for not realizing that things work differently in the South then they do in the North. And yes Ned should realize this.

She's calling him a fool for expecting everyone to be as married to law and order and honour and what's right as he is. Even if she doesn't know he spilled the beans to Cersei, she knows he spilled the beans to her, "a stupid girl" to use her own vernacular. A smart person would play their cards close to the vest. I don't doubt that Sansa wonders if Ned would still be alive if he was a bit more like Littlefinger. 

She's calling him a fool for marching into the Red Keep with a handful of men, and demanding the King to step down, with a paper shield.

Wait, so she's calling him a fool for expecting loyalty from his daughter? Typical Sansa! And btw, that did not happen on the show.

The point is that apparently Sansa knew nothing about what went down between her father and the Lannisters. She apparently did not know that her father consulted LF and asked for his help. She does not know that he approached Cersei. Ned's plan was fine - but he trusted in the wrong people and gave the wrong people info that was used against him - but Sansa does not know all this. And yet she keeps talking about stupid mistakes without understanding the finer points of what got him into trouble - that's why her advice to Jon last episode is nonsense. Without even knowing what Ned did wrong, why was she admonishing Jon for making the same mistakes that Ned did?

This is going a little off topic, so I will just say this - Sansa already knows that LF is a vile, manipulative, dangerous little man. She saw what he did to Lysa - that should have told her what kind of man he is. I have no idea why she is walking around with him, instead of trying to get rid of him.

The least they could have done is show LF trying to play up the Vale food stores to justify his continued presence in WF.

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[Haleth]

It's always been my belief that "a song of ice and fire" is a metaphor specifically for Jon. (Hey, Ser Davos, add that to his titles.)  I can see Dany bending her demand for bending the knee when it comes to Jon, once she finds out he's the second to last Targaryan. It will be their compromise that he will retain the north while ceding the Iron Throne to her.  Everyone is happy. 

[stillshimpy]

13 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

For an episode that was clearly supposed to be so very huge with Jon and Dany meeting, so much of it was very workmanlike and paint by numbers.  About the only interesting or amusing thing that happened in the meeting was the usual long bombastic drawn out intro of Dany of the 20 titles followed by a less than impressed Davos responding, "This is Jon Snow. ... He's, uh, King of the North."   Team Dany's war planning might benefit from having somebody who actually knows something about war, maybe.

Considering that there's more than a little bit of lovely writing in the books about Jon contemplating that joining the Nights Watch meant he'd never get to see any of the larger world beyond the dreary North, would it have killed them to have acknowledged that this is the one and only time he's ever gotten to travel outside of it?

I was so distracted by Cersei's pink lipstick throughout her monologuing at Ellaria that I didn't see the kiss of death coming until she was right on it.  Nice symmetry there, show.

I appreciated that the show went for a punishment that was fitting rather than a punishment that was designed to up the ick factor with a lot of "Great, Mountainstein is a rapey Zombie, that's just...not evne close to awesome.  Ugh."  So really liked the distracting pink lipstick because it slowly started to dawn on me what she was going to do. 

Other than that, I'm quickly growing weary of Cersei the Competent's reign of terror against every other cool character on the show.  

They might as well just name Euron King of Plot Clean-Up and Tail End tidying.  Although, I really did appreciate the wisdom of sacrificing Casterly Rock to get Highgarden and all its resources, I really wish the show would quit pretending that an armada can just suddenly be there quite that quickly.  Euron, King of Thinning the Character and Plot Obstacle Herd.  Last of his name, about as interesting as being a living word processor who highlights and deletes plot aspects no longer needed for the narrative. 

13 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yeah, I get what they were going for, I just don't think they really pulled it off. Having a character totally change offscreen doesn't really work.

I think that the only reason it worked for me was that they didn't hint much that it would be the case.  So whereas I expected Bran to be different, I wasn't expecting him to be largely vacant.  I got to be almost as freaked out as Sansa was meant to be.   Poor Bran, he basically died when Summer, Hodor and King Root Dude (three eyed raven) all died.  It's fitting and the story earned it, it just was painful for me to see.  

13 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

I had to chuckle at this description because it's so spot on, "blank meeting blank".  Yeah, there was just something off with their interaction.  I do think Kit is the stronger actor of the two. 

Can I just say how much I absolutely LOVE Davos, he is so sincere in his loyalty and admiration of Jon! I had to rewind his speech to Danaerys. 

Varys and the Melissandre had a very interesting conversation, no way she was sticking around with Davos coming to shore. Also she has been off with her other predictions, how is she so sure she will die in Westeros. 

I think that the show made the choice of not hitting any UST factors because whereas the main couple on this show is Cersei and Jaime (giant.thundering.eyeroll) I think that they were just perhaps indicating that "Yes, we know he's her nephew, we're not going anywhere sexual with this...probably yet because we've got a really weird mission statement on relationships here...yikes..." .   Here's hoping they decide there's a little too much close-blood-relatives-doing-the-do already. 

12 hours ago, Alapaki said:

A devastating weapon that can only be used by placing your Queen at risk of death is not much of a weapon.  

I wonder if Melisandre will return from Volantis with a solution to that dilemma.

So most of the episode felt like more establishing and stage setting, the weirdest thing was confirming that Varys is something more and that Melisandre knows him and knows that he was cursed.  There's one small problem with that:  The Wizard in the Box.   We know Varys isn't ancient because he got that darned Wizard in a Box to torture a few seasons ago.   

Regardless, the whole "Melisandre decides to help the writers avoid tying up any plot threads (that's Euron's job, step off, Mel!) by peacing the fuck out for...reasons."   

[Pogojoco]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

He made peace with the Wildlings to counter the threat of the WW. The NW for some reason thought that the Wildlings were a bigger threat than the WW, indicating that they really did not understand the gravity of the situation.

He does in the books. This is typical of how the show gives away Jon's book plots to Sansa to make her relevant on the show.  But I am sure as king, Jon would have kept an eye on the food stores or delegated someone to look into it.  Hell, that's why he left Sansa in charge - to take care of those things. Or are you suggesting that no one in WF though about the food stores until Sansa brought it up?

BTW, I must have missed it, but was there any mention of bringing up food from the Vale to the North? The Vale's food stores are a big plot point in the books.

Sansa knows that LF sided against Ned in KL which led to his imprisonment and death. She knows that he framed Tyrion and herself for Joffrey's murder. Knows that he murdered Lysa Arryn and manipulated his way to becoming Lord Protector of the Vale. She could easily convict him of treason and execute him with Royce's help.

You are totally right. ADWD has Jon thinking pretty much nonstop about feeding those at the Wall and how they are going to survive the winter, as well as bringing the Wildlings through the Wall. The White Walkers are even secondary (though Book Jon didn't go to Hardhome, he just hears about it.) And yeah, I distinctly remember Jon wondering if Lysa Aryn would even send food from the Vale to her brother in law's bastard. It's a lot of that until the Pink Letter and getting killed. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Pogojoco

[OhOkayWhat]

-Yara did not take all the ironborn ships, only a fraction.

-Euron can split his armada.

Edited July 31, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Maximum Taco]

19 minutes ago, anamika said:

Wait, so she's calling him a fool for expecting loyalty from his daughter? Typical Sansa! And btw, that did not happen on the show.

It did happen. He tells Sansa and Arya that he's sending them home in episode 106, and he's breaking the match with Joffrey. He trusted children with his plans. And yes it's stupid to do so. If I'm trying to keep a secret, I don't tell my nephew cause I know he's gonna blab it to everyone.

From what Sansa does know, Ned told everyone what King Robert wanted, and expected everyone to just go along with it even though it obviously wasn't what King Joffrey wanted. Ned is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.

From what Sansa does know, Robb broke a marriage pact with Walder Frey and then accepted the apology of a man known to hold a grudge and expected everything to be A-OK! Robb is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.

Jon is a straight shooter... see where she's going with this?

She's not telling Jon to avoid the EXACT same mistakes that Ned and Robb fell into, she's trying to get him to be less like them. Because it's their character flaws that led to their deaths.

Jon did it in this episode itself. If Dany had come to Jon hat in hand and refused to bend the knee, he would've sent her on her merry way. He is SHOCKED however when Dany captures his ship, his weapons and refuses to let him go back to his kingdom in open rebellion. Why? Cause Jon is a straight shooter and expects everyone else to be, just like Robb and Ned.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Pogojoco]

14 minutes ago, Haleth said:

It's always been my belief that "a song of ice and fire" is a metaphor specifically for Jon. (Hey, Ser Davos, add that to his titles.)  I can see Dany bending her demand for bending the knee when it comes to Jon, once she finds out he's the second to last Targaryan. It will be their compromise that he will retain the north while ceding the Iron Throne to her.  Everyone is happy. 

Yeah, I've read a lot about the Song of Ice and Fire being the two of them together. But Jon alone satisfies that as a product of the union between Stark and Targareyen. It could also, of course, be dragon vs White Walker. 

[DarkRaichu]

One more line I love:

Tyrion to Jon: "you look a lot better brooding than I do" LOL!

[dragonsbite]

Also, how is it possible that EVERYONE got somewhere they needed to be between last episode and this one...EXCEPT ARYA? 

This season (really, all the seasons) needs to have titles at the beginning of each scene so we know what day it is.

Edited July 31, 2017 by dragonsbite
b/c punctuation kills

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Also, how is it possible that EVERYONE got somewhere they needed to be between last episode and this one...EXCEPT ARYA? 

This season (really, all the seasons) needs to have titles at the beginning of each scene so we know what day it is. ?

Simple.  Arya was shown riding a horse to travel from place to place while everyone else simply teleported :D :D :D

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Haleth said:

It's always been my belief that "a song of ice and fire" is a metaphor specifically for Jon. (Hey, Ser Davos, add that to his titles.)  I can see Dany bending her demand for bending the knee when it comes to Jon, once she finds out he's the second to last Targaryan. It will be their compromise that he will retain the north while ceding the Iron Throne to her.  Everyone is happy. 

That's what I always thought as well. He is the only one who is both at the same time. Lyanna ice, Rhaegar fire, Dany fire. 

Other option is the war of ice vs fire, in which case, Others ice, Dany fire. The word song is used for music, but also for fighting in the books, like dance is used for dancing and war. 

Hey, George, books please, and thanks!

[anamika]

27 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

It did happen. He tells Sansa and Arya that he's sending them home in episode 106, and he's breaking the match with Joffrey. He trusted children with his plans. And yes it's stupid to do so. If I'm trying to keep a secret, I don't tell my nephew cause I know he's gonna blab it to everyone.

Yes, but Sansa did not tattle to Cersei on the show. So no harm was done in Ned telling them.

27 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

From what Sansa does know, Ned told everyone what King Robert wanted, and expected everyone to just go along with it even though it obviously wasn't what King Joffrey wanted. Ned is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.

From what Sansa does know, Robb broke a marriage pact with Walder Frey and then accepted the apology of a man known to hold a grudge and expected everything to be A-OK! Robb is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.

Context is important. Jon's decision was regarding the children of the house that sided against them. Punish them or forgive them. It had nothing to do with Ned's actions in KL or Robb breaking his wedding pact. In fact by forgiving the children, Jon did the opposite of what Ned (Theon) and Robb (Karstark) did. Sansa is unable to understand this because she does not fully know what led to Ned and Robb's downfall or what their mistakes where. It was Robb's execution of Karstark that leads to the Karstark contingent abandoning them, which then leads to Roose's betrayal. It was Theon's betrayal that led to Robb losing Winterfell. In forgiving the children, Jon is uniting the North instead of making new enemies and future betrayals. And yet, Sansa admonishes him for making the same mistakes Ned and Robb.

27 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon did it in this episode itself. If Dany had come to Jon hat in hand and refused to bend the knee, he would've sent her on her merry way. He is SHOCKED however when Dany captures his ship, his weapons and refuses to let him go back to his kingdom in open rebellion. Why? Cause Jon is a straight shooter and expects everyone else to be, just like Robb and Ned.

And yet Tyrion vouches for him and they allow him to mine for Dragon glass. Because he is straight shooter. He got the thing that he came for. If he had listened to Sansa there would be no dragon glass. So once again he was right and Sansa was wrong. His way worked.

Meanwhile Sansa is walking around with LF, letting him in on all their plans and giving him free reign to make mischief in WF. Despite knowing what he ultimately wants and despite knowing how dangerous he can be. She should take her own advice and not make the stupid mistakes that Ned made.  Did anyone see his face when Maester Wolkan mentioned all those scrolls that they get by raven - one can see him already start to plot.

Edited July 31, 2017 by anamika

[Constantinople]

13 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Also, how is it possible that EVERYONE got somewhere they needed to be between last episode and this one...EXCEPT ARYA? 

This season (really, all the seasons) needs to have titles at the beginning of each scene so we know what day it is. ?

Good point, particularly since they've mentioned more than once that the North is as large as all of the other kingdoms combined. 

[stillshimpy]

Oh.  You know, I think I understand what the showrunners were shooting for with Bran's "Not only will I keep saying I'm a three-eyed Raven, like that's just a Westerosi thing and in no way will freak my sister all the way out, even though we literally haven't had a conversation onscreen before. Now I will bring up the worst possible memory to tell her she looked very pretty, to really drive home the "I have no connection to human feelings any longer, I'm detached from your pain, from my pain, from the concept of pain...I'm just eerie and other worldly now."   

It's so they can have Bran just Exposition Fairy the shit out of Jon's real identity without having him show any regard for how he's destroying Jon's sense of self or his siblings' view of Ned, isn't it?  They had him creep it up with Sansa saying something vaguely attached to his affection for her as a family member, but detached from her ability to feel negative emotions when it comes to memories. 

Seems kind of a long road to travel just to be able to hack up that plot hairball in a way that it will be instantly believed -- the Show has thus far kind of hinted that LF knows there is more to the story but I hadn't ever really considered that none of them will believe him -- so they just had Bran be dead to all human sensibilities in order to be able to prime the dialog pump for an upcoming truth bomb, in all likelihood.  

[cambridgeguy]

I was under the impression that Dragonstone was a dark, foreboding place.  There sure seem to be a lot of beautiful views and bluffs in the immediate vicinity though. 

Quote

And yet, Tyrion vouches for him and they allow him to mine for Dragon glass. He got the thing that he came for. If he had listened to Sansa, there would be no dragon glass. So once again, he was right and Sansa was wrong.

He got lucky and everyone (including Tyrion himself) said they'd have told Jon not to go, so it's not like she was the lone voice against this little trip.  Besides, there's no way Jon's current forces can withstand a blitz from a bunch of undead who won't care about getting hacked to pieces so he has no way of getting close enough to the white walkers to actually use his new weapons.  He needs the dragons and manpower for humanity's big stand and there's no way he's getting that right now.

Now that Meera's in Winterfell maybe this will be their excuse for Howland Reed to come in and vouch for Bran's story.  You'd think he would want to see his only surviving child after all of this time.

Edited July 31, 2017 by cambridgeguy

[Edith]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Yeah, and Sansa thinks that he is setting traps for Jon.

Well Sansa was sort of right. Dany told Tyrion to summon Jon to come to DS to bend the knee. He didn't mention any of it in his letter.

And Jon is now a prisoner. Lucky for him Dany it's not Cersei nor a female Joffrey, and if it wasn't for the dragon glass And Tyrion's help, Jon would be stranded in DS until he bend the knee, doing nothing while WW are marching south. 

[FnkyChkn34]

30 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

-Yara did not take all the ironborn ships, only a fraction.

-Euron can split his armada.

Exactly.  Euron and a ship or two headed to KL, while all of the rest went to Casterly Rock.  That makes sense to me.