S07.E02: Stormborn

[Tikichick]

Couldn't help noticing Qyburn specifically emphasizing that every blacksmith in KL had been working to produce a supply of more of the new weapon.  

I realize everybody thinks he's still rowing and rowing, and rowing his heart out.  Maybe there's some possibility he's back to work smithing, same as we met him?  Kind of a lot of tension in the potential of someone with actual Barratheon blood being within Cersei's orbit.  Doesn't LF actually know of Gendry's bloodties?  

[MrWhyt]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I believe it's more a case of Ellaria not giving a fuck. She wants revenge for anybody even remotely responsible for Oberon's death, The narrative being that she's so filled with hate that she's willing to do anything to anybody to ensure that she gets it.

Yeah grief is rarely rational

[Conan Troutman]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

It matters in the sense that it doesn't make sense that people outside of areas that Cersei militarily controls would conside her to be a legitimate ruler.

Fair enough. But I think Cersei can work around that acceptance problem, as she did this episode - it's not like Dany's overly popular among the noble houses of Westeros and there aren't any other, more legitimate options. 

[Kathemy]

16 hours ago, doram said:

?

I also don't understand why the idea of Daenerys invading Westeros with a foreign army the same way Aegon the Conqueror did, is supposed to be a bad thing.

Can you tell me one time in the history of mankind where "foreign army invades your homeland" has been pleasant for the local population?

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Fair enough. But I think Cersei can work around that acceptance problem, as she did this episode - it's not like Dany's overly popular among the noble houses of Westeros and there aren't any other, more legitimate options. 

Which is why Tyrion's advice about not storming in with the Unsullied and the Dothraki was accurate.  The nobles and the peasants of Westerosi all have a natural inclination against the foreign invaders and are more likely to prefer the devil they know.  That's precisely why Randall Tarly's adherence to the accepted social conventions and the flat-out hatred of the wildlings -- and similar "savages" from Essos is key to his loyalties.

[Kathemy]

Just now, doram said:

We're talking Westeros. In the history of Westeros, this was done successfully. 

Nobody was raped? No villages were pillaged? No men died?

[Kathemy]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

That goes for every war, foreign invasion or otherwise. Are you arguing that indigenous wars are paradoxically peaceful, blood-less and rape-less? 

Because we literally see all this happen during the War of the Five Kings on this show. 

Yeah, we do, and I haven't seen anyone ever claiming there was "nothing bad" about it.

[FnkyChkn34]

35 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

So how awkward was that "prince who was promised", um er well Khalessi of 1,000 Names, "that word in High Valerian has no gender, so chill, it actually could be the princess who was promised, so it still might mean YOU!" 

Why not use "person who was promised" if you want to get all gender-neutral and stuff and keep the alliteration going? The whole use of "prince" and "princess" seems silly anyway. That entire scene took me so out of the show for several minutes, and it seemed like a re-work of the story or something. I wish the Red Woman and her prophesies would just get burned to ashes already. Can't wait for her demise, if not by dragons and fire, then by the hand of Ser Davos.

Well, if they did that, then Tyrion wouldn't have a one-liner to quip.

Edited July 24, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[funkopop]

The people of Kings Landing got pissed at Joffrey and it almost turned into a rape/pillage fest.  Cersei herself, threatened Sansa stating that Stannis's army will come and rape the women.  Dany had to tell Yara that her Ironborn soldiers could not rape and pillage anymore.  If one thing is universal in the entire realm or whatever, it seems to be rape and pillage.

Edited July 24, 2017 by funkopop

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

We're talking Westeros. In the history of Westeros, this was done successfully. 

Aegon didn't really conquer with an army, he had a very small force as far as men go. Dany dwarfs him in terms of manpower.

He conquered because he did not give a fuck about burning people alive (even innocents) with his giant living killing machines. Dany clearly does.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[iMonrey]

Quote

Dany met Varys in Meereen, and then they sailed together for what must have been months

Surely it doesn't tack months to cross the Narrow Sea. First of all, there's the whole "narrow" part. Secondly, Varys was in Dorne at the beginning of S06E10 (during the meeting between Olenna and Elarria) but then he was on the ship with Dany et. al. by the end of the episode, so he must have been able to zip back to Mereen pretty damn fast.

Quote

I'm sorry about what befell Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, mainly because it's going to please Cersei so much.

That's how I felt about it too. I'm just so damn tired of Cersei winning. Enough already! I'm starting to get worried this whole show is going to end with everyone dead and Cersei wins. And I"m very apprehensive about that giant crossbow. If they so much as harm one scale on any of those dragons, so help me . . .

Quote

I was moved by Arya's scene with Nymeria, but the "It's not you" was a clumsy and badly written attempt at a callback to a moment six seasons ago. I didn't understand it until I had it explained by the showrunners, and that's never good

Agreed. Here's the thing - too often the writers rely on fans' obsession with this show. All the scenes last week of The Hound relied upon remembering an insignificant event that took place three seasons ago. Arya saying "It's not you" relies on us remembering one line from the very first season. Now granted, it's great for people who are so immersed in this show that they remember every single line from every single scene from every single season. But for those of us who just watch the show, that line was confusing. We shouldn't have to go research it to find out what it meant. Here's a compromise: at some point in this episode, say perhaps right before she sees the wolves, Arya has a flashback to that conversation with her father back in Season 1. Then we'd all get what they hell she meant.

Quote

I don't dislike the love story between M and GW, nor did I particularly dislike the scene. I was disappointed that it much like any other love scene we see on TV.

Agreed again. There has been an awful lot of speculation on just what Grey Worm has "down there" and what he could do, physically. This scene did not really answer that question so again, it was just kind of baffling.

Quote

I'm also wondering why Dolorous Edd hasn't sent a raven to Winterfell, telling them Bran is alive.

I know right? Until I see otherwise I'm assuming Bran doesn't want to go to Winterfell for some dumb reason, and doesn't want Jon to know he's at Castle Black.

Quote

Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany?

Dany doesn't know the White Walkers are about to render her conquest moot. Jon has info she needs. If she turns her attention to keeping Westeros safe from the Night King and his army, everyone will probably throw themselves at her feet.

[Blonde Gator]

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

After seeing enough about not hearing about Jon and Sansa taking the North, they just landed umm a few hours ago, they been on ship weeks maybe, no time yet for Varys to call his birds so it could be plausable.

Euron's ship : well black ship, black sails, they see him but would be too late to react.

Devil's advocate here writer could hint some things yet didn't.

Qyburn co-opted Varys's little birds when Varys decamped after the purple wedding.  Varys no longer has any little birds in Westeros, and he knows that.  The little birds all now belong to Qyburn, and by extension, Cersei (recall, if you will, the Death of Pycelle, I see Cersei's hatred of him in the way the little birds stabbed him to death in last year's season finale, very up close and personal.  Cersei could have let him die in the Sept, but NO!).  Varys would be a fool to try to reclaim his little birds.  They'd be doubled in a heartbeat, and Varys betrayed.  Not a good look for THE Master of Whispers.  He needs time to recruit new little birds.

[screamin]

Though with Dany's aerial superiority, she could swoop down from above on one of her dragons in the dark of night, attack the Red Keep and turn it into another Harrenhal while leaving the rest of the city largely untouched. Yes, she could get more opposition than she bargained for with Cersei's New, Improved crossbows, but she doesn't know that. There doesn't really seem to be a logical reason why this possibility is discounted.

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

Though with Dany's aerial superiority, she could swoop down from above on one of her dragons in the dark of night, attack the Red Keep and turn it into another Harrenhal while leaving the rest of the city largely untouched. Yes, she could get more opposition than she bargained for with Cersei's New, Improved crossbows, but she doesn't know that. There doesn't really seem to be a logical reason why this possibility is discounted.

Ideally you'd want to take the city and the castle intact.

I mean she wants to live there after everything is done.

I'm sure if she has no options left, swooping down and cooking Cersei (and numerous others, including servants) will be entertained. But I see nothing wrong with trying to starve them out as option one. It usually is option one for the more well provisioned army, you can take the whole city, with all the infrastructure intact and lose no soldiers.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

He needs time to recruit new little birds.

Or flip the current birds. 

Get it?

Flip?

the birds? 

yeah, I'll show myself out. 

[TarotQueen]

14 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Last week when Sansa didn't want to just forgive the Kar-starks and Umbers, there was page after page of arguments over if it was smarter to forgive and whether Sansa should have been speaking out of turn openly against Jon.

This week Tyrion wants to go the 'don't kill 10's of thousands of innocents just to win the war quickly' route and it seems a consensus that Tyrion is wrong for not wanting to kill innocents and Dany should just let her dragons burn all they want?

Strategically, Jon and Dany are planning for the exact opposite types of war.  Dany is invading, Jon is defending.  It kind of makes a difference as to effective planning, if not morality.

[nodorothyparker]

15 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Surely it doesn't tack months to cross the Narrow Sea. First of all, there's the whole "narrow" part. Secondly, Varys was in Dorne at the beginning of S06E10 (during the meeting between Olenna and Elarria) but then he was on the ship with Dany et. al. by the end of the episode, so he must have been able to zip back to Mereen pretty damn fast.

They were coming from Meereen in Slaver's Bay, which is considerably farther than just across the Narrow Sea.  As for Varys, we can only assume he's got a teleporter tucked somewhere in those robes of his.

If any of the high lords or would be queens' wars weren't so shitty for the common people it's unlikely the whole mess with the Faith Militant and the Sparrows ever would have gotten such traction.  And while it's highly doubtful that in the end it will really matter that much to the common serving girl who's raped and murdered whether its done by crown soldiers or Dothraki, right now the perception matters.  Judging by the scene of Cersei stoking the Tyrell bannermen's fears talking about the evil foreign raping Dothraki led by the evil foreign queen who crucifies and burns people alive, we can probably assume Qyburn has people busy riling those fears among the general populace too.  Sure, Aegon came and conquered and united the land with dragons 300 years ago, but to most that's probably just a historical fact at this point and not necessarily an indicator of anything in much the same way that we in the U.S. wouldn't look at a potential military conflict now and go "well, in the Revolution ..." especially as Aegon had to conquer the kingdoms individually and not as an already established country with a leader, no matter how shaky her hold on it might be.

[KungFuBunny]

When Ned Stark and his children first found the Direwolf and the litter they found 5 dark pups - and then they heard another cry. The pup was white and given to John - that's why he named his Direwolf "Ghost"

Is it possible that the direwolf Arya saw was not Nymeria but Ghost?

I think I will laugh out loud if Danerys shows up at Casterly Rock and finds out it is now owned by the Iron Bank for non payment of the money owed

Edited July 24, 2017 by KungFuBunny

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

You know things are different in the books when Cersei is portrayed as a competent ruler and Jaime is just a boring whipped dog. 

Cersei doesn't come across as competent IMO at all.  She's a ruthless, power hungry despot with 1 or 2 skillful people backing her.  On her own, she'd just be squatting on that ugly throne, dressed in even uglier clothes, hissing and foaming and ranting.  I wouldn't know if Jaime was ever impressive because I quit reading those books after #3.

[screamin]

22 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Ideally you'd want to take the city and the castle intact.

I mean she wants to live there after everything is done.

I'm sure if she has no options left, swooping down and cooking Cersei (and numerous others, including servants) will be entertained. But I see nothing wrong with trying to starve them out as option one. It usually is option one for the more well provisioned army, you can take the whole city, with all the infrastructure intact and lose no soldiers.

If what she wants is to take down Cersei with minimum loss of innocent lives, a direct dragon attack on the Red Keep is in order and damn the real estate losses. Is keeping the Red Keep intact worth the cost in innocent lives? Because 'starving them out' will starve and kill the poor first...in a siege the rich and powerful commandeer the food supply to themselves and their soldiers.

[Maximum Taco]

8 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

When Ned Stark and his children first found the Direwolf and the litter they found 5 dark pups - and then they heard another cry. The pup was white and given to John - that's why he named his Direwolf "Ghost"

Is it possible that the direwolf Arya saw was not Nymeria but Ghost?

I think I will laugh out loud if Danerys shows up at Casterly Rock and find out it is now owned by the Iron Bank for non payment of the money owed

Ghost is an albino and has red eyes.

The direwolf Arya encountered could only be Nymeria.

[FnkyChkn34]

I'm not so sure Dany intends on starving the commoners who live in King's Landing.  Maybe she sets up places where they can come get food from her and her armies; what she does do is keep all food and supplies from Cersei and Lannisters?

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm surprised she didn't bring up that Tyrion has loyally served bad masters before (Joffrey, e.g.).

Has she mentioned how she took Joffrey's and Cersei's side over Arya? 

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

As nervous as Sansa is being named QITN, 

She was not named QiTN, at best she's his regent.

5 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon will be the one to take the throne if she should die, and his heir is Sansa (until Bran returns anyway.)

Sansa would have to be named Jon's heir, it's not automatic.  Same thing with Cersei.  She's usurped the throne 3 times now, twice with her bastards.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Has she mentioned how she took Joffrey's and Cersei's side over Arya? 

.

Who is the she you're referring to here?

[Blonde Gator]

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Umm... she gets The North?  She wants to rules the Seven Kingdoms and The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms.

I don't believe she will get to rule the North.  Jon won't bend the knee.  What she does get, however, is an agreement that the North will NOT oppose her rule in the rest of Westeros.   Jon has just been acclaimed the KITN, it's not really his to give away, since he was appointed, and didn't take it by force.  Dany should respect that, as her notions of "freedom to choose" have been a point throughout her character development in the slave cities of Slaver's Bay. 

[Maximum Taco]

23 minutes ago, screamin said:

If what she wants is to take down Cersei with minimum loss of innocent lives, a direct dragon attack on the Red Keep is in order and damn the real estate losses. Is keeping the Red Keep intact worth the cost in innocent lives? Because 'starving them out' will starve and kill the poor first...in a siege the rich and powerful commandeer the food supply to themselves and their soldiers.

Burning the Red Keep is a plan with a lot of faults.

Cersei knows that Dany is on Dragonstone, she knows Dany has dragons. She is no doubt aware of the possibility of a dragon assault. Even if Dany doesn't think Cersei can do anything to hurt her dragons, it doesn't rule out the possibility of escape. The Red Keep is not Harrenhal, which is a castle in the middle of nowhere, it is a castle in the middle of a city, a city with thousands of places to hide. Not to mention the fact that the Red Keep has a myriad of hidden passageways into and out of the castle, a fact which both Tyrion and Varys know. They also both know that Jaime knows, and thusly can probably assume that Cersei knows.

The only way to be sure Cersei dies is to torch the whole city.

If Dany torches the Red Keep and Cersei lives all Dany gets is a reputation as a psychopath that is trying to burn the city down. Does that sound like any past King we know? Don't you think Dany would like to avoid that comparison?

Edited July 24, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[mac123x]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

And I get what you are saying, but the question was who is Tommen's heir. I'm sure there are distant 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins on his father's side(*) since the houses intermarry frequently.  But you and others are absolutely right that no one is going to challenge Cersei's butt on the throne.  At least until she starts losing. 

*Of course the thing is that Robert wasn't Tommen's father anyway.

Robert's distant cousins are Dany (and Jon though only Bran knows (yet)).  They're all descendants of Aegon V.  That was the veneer of legitimacy they pasted over Robert's right to the thrown after his rebellion - his grandmother was Aegon's daughter Rhaelle, who was the younger sister of Jaeherys.  Unless my math is off, Dany is Robert's second cousin, and Jon is Robert's second cousin once removed, and Tommen's third cousin (though not really).

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Robert didn't even call his banners until Aerys came after him. If anything, Robert was a bit too reasonable about everything given what he thought happened.

Yes, it was Brandon Stark who showed less restraint than Robert did and that's what made the "kidnapping" of Lyanna explode.

[piequinn35]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Ghost is an albino and has red eyes.

The direwolf Arya encountered could only be Nymeria.

Yes, that's Nymeria, if that's not Nymeria then Arya is a goner.

 

9 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Who is the she you're referring to here?

Sansa

[Haleth]

Regarding Dany possibly siccing the dragons on the Red Keep, remember her vision of the burned out throne room.  It's probably going to happen sooner or later.  (I know some think it's the throne room on Dragonstone, but I still think it's the Iron Throne she was seeing.)

[nurse1]

3 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

Arya nearly brought tears to my eyes. Twice. Hot Pie is such an anomaly on this show, a pure, kind-hearted person who leads a good life unmarred by the kind of tragedy that every other pure, kind-hearted character has been met with. So his presence alone in the reunion scene already gave it the rarest of uplifting, warms-the-heart feeling. And then MW's reaction to the news and (for the first time in how long in Arya's storyline?) the Stark theme swelling up, a gorgeous, less depressing version of it. And then she turned her horse around and the scene was cemented as possibly my favorite in the entire series so far. Finally, closure to an incredibly dark, incredibly long chapter in the life of Arya Stark. So, so well done. The Nymeria reunion was simply icing on the pie, if no less emotionally satisfying.

Perfectly stated!...Hot Pie was always a sweet, kind soul and I am glad to see that he has found a place.

Nymeria was such a welcome surprise and I think that she and her pack will reappear later in the series.

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Yes, that's Nymeria, if that's not Nymeria then Arya is a goner.

 

Sansa

Thanks, I thought so, but wanted to clarify based on how it was done.

[Couver]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I believe it's more a case of Ellaria not giving a fuck. She wants revenge for anybody even remotely responsible for Oberon's death, The narrative being that she's so filled with hate that she's willing to do anything to anybody to ensure that she gets it.

Right. Plus Oberon hated the Lannisters and so does Ellaria. Ellaria isn't a sympathetic character but honestly I had no issue with what she did. Cersei and Jamie were abusing children long before Ellaria went after Myrcella. The show gives Cersei so many wins that the audience has to take the losses where you can get them. I've thoroughly enjoyed her losing her children (although Tommen had potential). But sadly even that wasn't that gratifying since she only really seemed to care about Joffrey's death. Myrcella added nothing to the show anyway so it wasn't a big loss to me. The Dorn storyline overall has been a huge mess and waste of time. It will culminate in yet another gloating moment for Cersei and some gruesome fate for Ellaria and her daughter. Kind of a waste of Indira Varma. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Couver

[mojoween]

Wait so there are (were) TWO Nymeria's?  A wolf and a Snake?

I only read book one a million years ago and so I love reading the history stuff that is explained in each ep thread, like about Robert's Rebellion etc. etc.  Even if it's fictional history, it's very interesting.

About this episode, I can hand wave a lot of things, like the fact that not everyone is aware that Jon is KITN, but how on earth did Qyburn know that Drogon was injured in Mereen?  Where would that info come from?  I thought about that for a long time last night and then again on rewatch today.

[Affogato]

17 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

Any chance Nymeria might make another appearance and realize that Arya needs her?   I just don't want that to be the last encounter.( what are these wet things in my eyes?).

 

Also , where is a Ghost?

The dog that played Ghost died recently. I don't know if he filmed any of this season.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Here's the thing - too often the writers rely on fans' obsession with this show. All the scenes last week of The Hound relied upon remembering an insignificant event that took place three seasons ago. Arya saying "It's not you" relies on us remembering one line from the very first season. Now granted, it's great for people who are so immersed in this show that they remember every single line from every single scene from every single season. But for those of us who just watch the show, that line was confusing. We shouldn't have to go research it to find out what it meant. Here's a compromise: at some point in this episode, say perhaps right before she sees the wolves, Arya has a flashback to that conversation with her father back in Season 1. Then we'd all get what they hell she meant.

I'm surprised they didn't include her conversation with Ned in the Previously On segment.  Then again, that would be criticized as too ham-handed, so they're damned either way.  For me, I didn't make that connection until I read it here; as I was watching that scene it came across that Arya was using a cliché break-up line on Nymeria.  "It's not you, it's me, I need time to figure out what I want so I think we should take a break from each other for a while.  No hard feelings.  I'll text you sometime."

Edited July 24, 2017 by mac123x

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Wait so there are (were) TWO Nymeria's?  A wolf and a Snake?

I only read book one a million years ago and so I love reading the history stuff that is explained in each ep thread, like about Robert's Rebellion etc. etc.  Even if it's fictional history, it's very interesting.

About this episode, I can hand wave a lot of things, like the fact that not everyone is aware that Jon is KITN, but how on earth did Qyburn know that Drogon was injured in Mereen?  Where would that info come from?  I thought about that for a long time last night and then again on rewatch today.

Was one of the Sand Snakes named Nymeria?  I saw that mentioned upthread & I couldn't remember that.  I knew of the wolf and the ancient Queen. 

[taanja]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Maybe this is just my general dislike for Arya coming through, but once someone else pointed out that she kept wiping her mouth with the back of her hand, that was ALL I noticed on my re-watch.  Yes, she's a slob.  She has no manners.  What is that supposed to convey?  She's as wild as her direwolf?  Or that she's just a pig?

She reminded me of the Hound eating. Same mannerisms. Same crudeness. Even the same way he gulps down ale. Which makes me want a Hound and Arya reunion. Stat.

[blackwing]

The articles I have read in the media all largely seem rapturous about the demise of the Sand Snakes.  I never hated them.  And I never hated Ellaria.  I have had a soft spot for Indira Varma ever since she appeared on "Rome", her Niobe didn't deserve that death.  I do agree that the Sand Snakes have been twisted on this show.  I thought they were supposed to be fierce warriors, how is it that two of them were killed so easily?

 

14 hours ago, that one guy said:

Well, I agree their death is earned. #justiceformyrcella. But I'll miss Jessica Henwick, the best thing about Iron Fist (and I'm pumped to seen the Daughters of the Dragon team up with Jessica Jones in a few weeks). I'll pretty much watch her in anything at this point.

I like Jessica Henwick as well.  I wish she could have stayed on both shows.  But just to nitpick, the Daughters of the Dragon are Colleen Wing and Misty Knight.  Jessica Jones wasn't one of them.  At least not in the comics.

I find it interesting that the Sand Snake played by Jessica Henwick was named Nymeria.  And, of course, Nymeria is the name of Arya's direwolf.  This is curious to me because I believe in the books, unless we are talking about names of long dead royalty, names don't seem to get used by GRRM more than once.  The show changed Asha Greyjoy's name to Yara to avoid confusion with Osha the wildling.  So we have two Nymerias, is that OK because one of them is an animal, and it's just supposed to be an indication that Nymeria is a popular name that is the medieval Westerosi equivalent of today's Olivia, Emma and Sophia?

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

So how awkward was that "prince who was promised", um er well Khalessi of 1,000 Names, "that word in High Valerian has no gender, so chill, it actually could be the princess who was promised, so it still might mean YOU!" 

Why not use "person who was promised" if you want to get all gender-neutral and stuff and keep the alliteration going? The whole use of "prince" and "princess" seems silly anyway. That entire scene took me so out of the show for several minutes, and it seemed like a re-work of the story or something. I wish the Red Woman and her prophesies would just get burned to ashes already. Can't wait for her demise, if not by dragons and fire, then by the hand of Ser Davos.

I agree.  It struck me as very "2017 feminism" at work.

I don't care for Jorah Mormont.  I find myself not caring in the least whether he lives or dies.

[piequinn35]

Yup, one of Oberyn's daughters was named Nymeria. RIP.

[Happy Harpy]

The pieces are now assembled on the chessboard, and shit is about to get real. I liked to see them move.

It becomes Dany to interact with characters from Westeros. I feel the snark in her, and I think she does quite well managing the tension between her troops. I loved her interaction with Varys and how he didn't back down. It isn't often that he shows how he still has more spine than most. And I loved the understanding they got to in the end. I also loved the clear difference between those who were there with a goal in mind (Dany, Tyrion, Yara to a certain degree) and those whose mind was blurred by hatred and revenge. Olenna had thorns, now they drip with bitterness and despair (completely normal) and she seemed already absent to me; I truly felt that Cersei's death is her last mission on earth.  I've always liked the Missandei/Greyworm relationship, and I thought it was emotional without getting sappy, and well acted.

BTW, does Varys still have as many birds as before in the West? Qyburn has hijacked the KL ones, it seems; if he did that with a big part of Varys' flock it could explain why his intel is more sparse than it used to be. Moreover, the show seems to establish the North as more secluded from the rest of the continent; news fly like the wind within, but seem slower to pass the Neck -maybe winter doesn't help. It's coherent with the fact that Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay.

Talking about the North. I love the Jon/Davos team so much. My favorite ex-smuggler now works with the good man who has the big picture in mind, and Davos often provides for the simple logic or the simple fact that helps my favorite KITN in his choice. About big pictures, this episode showed even more clearly, and more smoothly, the division between those who see it, and those who focus on their close-to-home issues -again, a particular streak of the North so it was understandable. Jon nodding to Her Badassery when she spoke against his idea was sweet. It was easier for me to understand Sansa's concerns since, imo, they were expressed in a less petulant and more respectful way than in the previous episode; she was aware she spoke to her king and not to her big/bastard brother this time around. Of course, it's the North left in her hands that ultimately swayed her. We'll see, but ugh, more Littlefinger in sight...but I'm looking forward to his face when Arya arrives and even better, if Bran shows up.

I also liked the grey portrayal of Tarly Senior. No heart, lots of arrogance and ambition, but also realism and a reluctance to betray old links. He didn't hide that he mainly answered the summon out of fear for Cersei's retribution, but it's still the Warden of the South title that swayed him. As far allegiances go, nothing is normal anymore. Lords can choose whichever option fits their interest better or presents the least risks, and justify it by Crown against Liege and vice-versa, My House First, or My People First.

Jaimes shows he knows how to pull people's strings. I just hope that he doesn't spend the season up Cersei's butt. I wonder if he was gaslighted by Cersei's old "you weren't there", and feels somehow that he has to make up to her for their children's death. Or maybe he thinks he has nothing else left to hold on to. I'm certain it will be addressed at one point, but the whiff of an explanation would be quite welcome. His redemption was such a powerful arc, and it came to a stop.

One more hint that Arya's West of Westeros exploration is her endgame, imo. I think she's going to go back to Winterfell, fare well during the war against the others, but once peace settles she's going to realize that castle life isn't for her and leave. The scene at the inn had so many references to her past, Hot Pie of course, "Ary", "a pie of two", the way she ate like with the Hound, etc. I also do love that in spite of her skills, Arya isn't portrayed as invincible or oblivious of danger; how she can be concerned and afraid, like here with the wolves. And of course, the Arya/Nymeria reunion was perfect, and terribly sad at the same time. Now I need to get my Arya/Gendry reunion (without the sad part, please).

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Robert has one living son, Gendry. If he fights and serves well and survives the upcoming war, I can see Jon and Daenerys legitimizing Gendry and reestablishing the Baratheon House through him. It cannot be an accident that he is being re-introduced to the story.

If people are looking for Baratheon's blood, legitimate or not, Gendry's the last one on the show. Two people, including the closest advisor to the KITN, know about him. Otherwise, I believe like @mac123x said that the closest heirs by legitimate blood (the paternal line, of course re: Westeros) would be Jon and Dany, since Robert's paternal grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen.

The Greyjoy siblings are probably my favorite, heartbreaking relationship. The moment Yara said "protector", I knew that shit would happen. Gemma Whelan got me with her lone tear (Tough love Yara crying!) and Alfie Allen did once more a tremendous job in portraying Theon's trauma. I can't help but root for those two.

I never disliked the Sand Snakes as much as many, and since the last finale Dorne found its way on the chessboard so I'm OK with the storyline. Turned against the Lannister, allied with Dany, killed Myrcella, maybe sealed the Greyjoy/Lannister alliance; I presume that their big plot points for endgame are now checked. They were badass fighters here, and although the plan was probably different in the beginning, I'm glad that D&D didn't try to render them sympathetic at any cost. And even though she'll deserve her (probably miserable) fate for what she did to Myrcella, and I wish that Tyrion could have done more against her than a call back to Oberyn's words to Cersei, I still find Ellaria very human for all her faults. Indira Varma, probably, is the reason why.

I do have a problem with Euron. The writing is actually OK, in the sense that his purpose is clear, but the acting is too cartoonish. It completely destroyed the tension of the attack for me. I can't with the yelling and eye-rolling and good jolly bastard act, it took me out of the scenes. He's dangerously crazy alright, he's rotten and heartless alright, but he lacks gravitas. There are actors who can do fantasy, and others no matter how good otherwise who can't, and imo this actor belongs to the second category. YMMV.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[Affogato]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I agree.  It struck me as very "2017 feminism" at work.

 

When interpreting old documents those sort of confusions do occur and in a largely male ruled society assuming someone was male is pretty common, too. I always thought there was a pretty strong implication that, of the current group Dany was in the running, so the 'prince or princess' was implied...this just formalizes it.

[Kathemy]

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

His birds didn't even know Jon was the king of the North. I doubt they'd know about something as recent as Euron.

Varys is your standard storytelling cruth, both for D&D and GRRM. He knows whatever the story needs him to. He wouldn't know water was wet if it didn't.

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I agree.  It struck me as very "2017 feminism" at work.

 

The whole thing about how the Prince who was Promised might actually not refer to a male comes straight from the books, written WAY before 2017 (by GRRM, who is at best a somewhat ambivalent apostle for feminism).

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Also, will Bran showing up at Winterfell cause issues with Jon and Sansa being in charge? Bran is the rightful heir to Winterfell.

I'm not sure if King of the North couldn't be separated from Winterfell, if necessary.

[Blonde Gator]

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I think Baratheon blood is the key here.

Ah yes, but......Robert has Targ blood, which was one of the reasons he became king after the Mad King.   He had the most "legitimate" claim, due his Targ ancestor.  So "Baratheon Blood" means nothing, here, in regard to the 7 Kingdoms of Westeros.  He inherited 7 Kingdoms.  It was the Targs who actually united Westeros, and created the 7 Kingdoms.

Also, the books point to the fact that Varys has always been working toward a Targ restoration.   He & Ilario Mopatis funded both Viserys and Dany's childhoods in Essos, after their plans to place Rhaegar on the throne went awry due to the Mad King's burning of the Starks precipitated all out war.  And it's intimated they're (Varys and Mopatis) behind fAegon upbringing in the books, who is likely a Blackfyre, and perhaps a relative of Ilaryio Mopatis (plus speculation that Varys may also be a minor Targ/Blackfyre).  Viserys, Dany & fAegon were set up years ago as a potential heirs to the rightful Targaryan rule of Westeros.   As it turned out, Dany was their third choice originally, but her arc sent her barreling off in ways that couldn't be predicted.  She hatched Dragons, Viserys had himself crowned in gold, and fAegon, well, he's not in the show, but I think he's just another Shaggy Dog twist in GRRM's books.  Of course, we'll have to wait and see, but the PTWP prophecies make me believe so....it's Dany who is the PTWP, of course, and Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. 

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Despite all the people Arya has killed, I feel that Maisie shows such warmth and emotion that I just can't see her as an irrevocably damaged murderer.

 

I think it is entirely possible that someday Sam and Arya will be living in Winterfell with their weird children while he writes his epic history. Because everybody else will be dead....

[domina89]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The dog that played Ghost died recently. I don't know if he filmed any of this season.

No, the wolf that died was named for Ghost- he was not the dog/wolf that plays Ghost in the series.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/george-martin-pays-tribute-wolf-dog-named-ghost-article-1.3190142

[that one guy]

32 minutes ago, blackwing said:

15 hours ago, that one guy said:

Well, I agree their death is earned. #justiceformyrcella. But I'll miss Jessica Henwick, the best thing about Iron Fist (and I'm pumped to seen the Daughters of the Dragon team up with Jessica Jones in a few weeks). I'll pretty much watch her in anything at this point.

I like Jessica Henwick as well.  I wish she could have stayed on both shows.  But just to nitpick, the Daughters of the Dragon are Colleen Wing and Misty Knight.  Jessica Jones wasn't one of them.  At least not in the comics.

I'm aware of that. Both Colleen Wing and Misty Knight will be on the Defenders. So will Jessica Jones. Ergo, we'll be seeing the Daughters of the Dragon team up with Jessica Jones. Although they won't be calling themselves that. (Yet?)

Got stuck in a waiting room today and ended up reading a lot of reviews and stuff on my phone. Apparently the filming of "Stormborn" happened at the same time as "Iron Fist," even though that show was released months ago, and Jessica Henwick wasn't really available and almost wasn't able to return to show to be killed off. As it is, her death was written more elaborately but due to her limited availability her appearance was made as brief as possible.

This may be part of why the final battle scene was so murky and hard to follow? For a show that's given us some great, legible action sequences from "the Watchers on the Wall" to the "Battle of the Bastards," this one was kind of disappointing. Previous battles have combined a sense of the chaos of battle with a narrative clarity - you could clearly follow the fighting and figure out who was doing what, what each character's objective was, etc. This - the chaos was there, but it was difficult for me to follow what was going on. It was frustrating. I will rewatch it tonight and see if I can follow it.. but I was fully in agreement with reviewers who panned the action sequence. 

But another criticism seemed off base: people wanted to know how Euron found them so easily. But that's no mystery, the Iron Fleet was shown at King's landing last week. Blackwater Bay is triangular in shape with King's Landing at the pointy bit. Dragonstone is an island in the middle of the bay. There's literally no way Euron's fleet could leave the bay and get back to the Narrow Sea without passing fairly close to Dragonstone. Euron obviously sailed his fleet a bit past Dragonstone and parked it. Any fleet leaving the bay would have to get past him. I don't think he found them at all. I think he was sitting there waiting for them, and Yara's fleet blundered right into him. The question is, did he attack the ships with the Unsullied on them as well? Probably not, he seems like a fairly self-serving kind of guy. His own goal has been pretty clearly stated as killing Yara, so he's attacking her, and getting a nice present for Cersei while he's at it. But he doesn't particularly care at this point whether somebody sacks Casterly Rock. But if he was just sitting near the mouth of the bay waiting for ships to blunder into his fleet, how would he know whose ships he would find first? So maybe it is a problem. Or maybe he just got lucky.

Edited July 24, 2017 by that one guy
typos

[Affogato]

13 minutes ago, domina89 said:

No, the wolf that died was named for Ghost- he was not the dog/wolf that plays Ghost in the series.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/george-martin-pays-tribute-wolf-dog-named-ghost-article-1.3190142

Oh