S07.E02: Stormborn

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, Mya Stone said:

Is it wrong I cheered when Euron killed two of the Sand Snakes? 

If that is wrong, I don't want to be right.  The scene was so dark it was hard to tell-- are they all dead?  And Ellaria on her way to Cersei?

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay, here's a prediction.  They went out of their way to remind us the littlest Sand Snake, the one that survived, is Ellaria's daughter (the other two weren't).  So Ellaria, who killed Cersei's daughter, is going to be presented as a gift to Cersei . . . and so is Ellaria's daughter.  So doesn't that make you wonder just how gruesome the littlest's Sand Snake's death going to be?  I wonder if she's going to meet the same end as the Septa that tormented Cersei (prolonged slow death by rape by Frankenmountain) with the additional wrinkle that Ellaria has to watch.

Ok, this seems like where the writers will go.  As much as nobody cares about the Snakes or Ellaria it bugs me that the show is probably going to waste time with this.

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Sam is the bravest coward in all of Westeros

I kept thinking GRRM was probably having a fit over Sam being so proactive and greyscale being so easily cured.  (Well, except for the cutting and oozing.)

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

What was the last thing Arya said after Nymeria turned away?  "That's not you?"  Did she mean that was not Nymeria?  I'm confused.

I think she meant that it's not Nymeria to be a tamed pet anymore and a not so subtle comment about herself.  Or maybe that the CGI budget couldn't accommodate her.  Sorry, Nym.

9 hours ago, domina89 said:

Odd question: How in the world does Dany have ravens when she basically just rolled up to an empty Dragonstone

I'm also wondering why Dolorous Edd hasn't sent a raven to Winterfell, telling them Bran is alive.

5 hours ago, TwistedandBored said:

Also, those Dragons better know how to zig zag/ flip/dodge whatever during the battle scenes.

Serpentine, Shel!

The question of whether or not Tyrion's plan was a good one is moot since Dany just lost her transportation.  I suppose she can requisition merchant ships but that would take some time.  Traveling overland doesn't seem a good option.  Still the whole Dragonstone scene was good.  Conleth Hill and Diana Rigg are such generous actors they even made Emilia Clark look good.

[benteen]

I think too what's exciting as Jon and Dany finally meeting is because we are still likely years away from that in the books, if we ever get anymore at all.  I don't see Jon and Dany meeting up in The Winds of Winter.  So that means A Dream of Spring, if that book ever gets written and you figure that book won't see the light of day for AT LEAST six years.

Cogman brought up that Nymeria going back to being Arya's pet would be a step backwards.  Nymeria is a leader of her own pack now.  Not a pet.  This made a lot of sense.  However, I hope this means that she can still be Arya's ally. 

Quote

I was heartbroken at the outcome for Theon and Yara. The irony is, Theon did the right thing -- if he had made a move on Euron, he simply would have slit Yara's throat and taken Theon as the necessary royal hostage instead. By leaping overboard, I would argue that Theon saved (however temporarily) Yara's life. (I really hope she makes it through this somehow, darn it...)

Yeah, Theon would have been cut down and probably Yara with him.  Yara probably would have preferred this for many reasons.  I know he abandoned his sister but I do excuse Theon having a full-fledged PTSD breakdown in this moment.

So Maester Pylos gets a mention on the show as the man who cured adult greyscale.  Of course he died of greyscale but hey, that might be better than living with Stannis.

Hot Pie has returned unexpectedly twice in the past three seasons and both scenes are gold.  The character adds a wonderful everyman quality to the show and it kind of feels like an old-school, fun fantasy novel when he shows up.  In a good way.

Edited July 24, 2017 by benteen

[Meredith Quill]

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Theon, when shit gets real:

Theon just noped the fuck outta there:

and who can blame him! 

[MaggieG]

If Gendry is still rowing around on his boat maybe he can pick up Theon.

I know we are supposed to hate Euron but I kinda love how crazy he is.

[benteen]

You know things are different in the books when Cersei is portrayed as a competent ruler and Jaime is just a boring whipped dog.  Still, there was one moment where Jaime felt like Book Jaime.  Jaime calling Dickon "Rickon", Dickon correcting him and Jaime completely ignoring him to talk to Lord Tarly.  In that brief moment, Not Jaime Lannister felt like Jaime Lannister again.

[Miles]

Really? Two sandsnakes couldn't take out Euron? That makes the show Dorne storyline even more pathetic somehow.

Also Euron was cut by one of them. If he isn't dead within the next episode I'm calling shenanigans of the highest order!

[Francie]

Is it really so impressive that Olenna lived to an old age?  Until Loras put Highgarden into play by backing Renly, and Margaery made her  grab for the queens crown, the Tyrells were non-entities in the game of thrones. Mace participated in Roberts rebellion, but  his role was a minor, and Olenna sat back in High Garden. I doubt anyone ever challenged her seat there. She tucked tail and ran from Kings Landing, but that was due to Margaery's insight and request.  Perhaps her greatest decision was not going out with her husband Luthor when he went hawking that day.  I understand the real point of that scene was to plant a seed in Dany's head to one day go full mad queen. 

You know if Ellaria hadn't murdered Myrcella, the kind, we'll-meaning girl might be sitting on the throne right now. And saving a lot of people a lot of worry. Ellaria can't die fast enough for me.  She needs to shut up about needing justice for Oberyn. He decided to fight the mountain. And then he even decided to gloat over him. Count me as one who is looking forward to Cersei getting her revenge Ellaria.

[Knuckles]

For all the fuss about the endgame  being female dominant, it seems they are spectacularly inept. So Yara and Ellaria are flirting with one another, and the sand snakes bragging about their prowess, while Euron sneaks up and attacks. So Yara doesn't bother to post scouts? And not a single crew member notices a thing?  For the record, I am glad the writers found a way to dispose of the sand snakes, and Ellaria may have more use as a battle trophy than a would-be ruler. Never bought in either the book or the show version that Dorne would follow Ellaria after her murder of Prince Doran, and nothing in the casting of the sand snakes suggested anything but addled mean girls. 

Danny sails to Westeros, and doesn't use the time to map out a battle plan? WTF?

LF overstepped, and misjudged Jon...the latter's gratitude for the Vale army goes to Sansa, not LF. And any suggestion of untoward feelings for Catelyn or Sansa really ignited Jon's anger...again, a serious misjudgment on LittleFinger's part. If Jon had actually strangled Littlefinger, I doubt the lords of the Vale would care...Royce might be grateful. LF will return to trying to work Sansa...who knows if he will succeed.  But, Arya heading home to Winterfell will complicate his efforts...imagine Jon finding out that Arya is alive and reuniting with her. Should be wonderful.

I do love Hotpie, and I especially liked that the writers had him calling her Arry...just as he did six years earlier.  Nice touch.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Not only was Sansa and Tyrion's wedding not consummated, but since this is the book thread, you know from what the Maester told Bran about Lady Hornwood's forced marriage to Ramsay, that a marriage by sword point was no marriage.  So Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion is not legally binding, even if it was consummated.

Well folks, Jon is meeting Tyrion soon let's see, WRG to that. I don't think Jon ever gave us thoughts on that in show or book, Sansa still considers herself married to Tyrion, she uses that as a shield in book, never mentioned in show.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, that one guy said:

In practice, in the pre-gunpowder era, it was a race to see who ran out of food first. Often the besieging army ran out of supplies before the besieged, The struggle for the allegiance of the Reach is key here. They have the food, as Jaime pointed out last week. So, this is where Tarly is key. If the Reach backs Olenna, Cersei's done for. If she can break the siege with the help of the Reach, she can survive. Tyrion's right, the loyalty of the Houses is key. All of this adds up to - Jon needs dragonglass, Dany needs allies and a Westerosi husband. If they're not married within three episodes I'll be a Targaryen's uncle.

Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany? He gets dragonglass and maybe the use of her dragons against the Night King...what does  he offer in exchange? He can't spare men to fight for her, he needs them all against the Night King. So what advantage does he offer Dany if she marries him?

[Francie]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

 

Cersei has no claim to the Iron Throne, so why is Tarly even considering supporting her

Who else is Tommen's heir? 

Note that the sigil in the opening is, surprisingly, still a Baratheon stag. Cersei is ruler by basis of her marriage to Robert and being the closest blood relative to a Tommen Baratheon.

I did  too question why Tarly didn't challenge this a bit -  that Olenna is unquestionably his liege lady, and thus his need to be loyal to her, was unassailable, whereas Cersei's claim to the throne is more tenuous. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Francie

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany? He gets dragonglass and maybe the use of her dragons against the Night King...what does  he offer in exchange? He can't spare men to fight for her, he needs them all against the Night King. So what advantage does he offer Dany if she marries him?

Jon will bring with him what remains of the northern lords and the Vale after they defeat the Night King which is no small thing. Besides, it isn't like there are any other contenders who have strong power bases in Westeros.

Edited July 24, 2017 by SimoneS

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

After seeing enough about not hearing about Jon and Sansa taking the North, they just landed umm a few hours ago, they been on ship weeks maybe, no time yet for Varys to call his birds so it could be plausable.

I think the biggest source of confusion is that the various storylines are not actually happening simultaneously, and it's hard to know how they're all supposed to line up. It seems like Varys should at least know that Jon is on his way to becoming king, since we saw the Battle of the Bastards and much of the aftermath before Varys even made it to Dorne to recruit Dany's Westerosi allies, but the end of Jon's storyline was taking place at a much faster pace than everyone else's, so it's possible much of it took place once Dany was underway.

Or maybe it isn't? I haven't actually gone back and checked the various intersection points. I would hope that someone in the writer's room is keeping track of how things line up, but I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that no one is.

23 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I think she meant that it's not Nymeria to be a tamed pet anymore and a not so subtle comment about herself.

Yep, yep. And here I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that this revelation runs contra to the one Arya made earlier in the episode, when she decided to give up on her quest to kill the queen and ride to Winterfell instead. So they're whiplashing the character a little bit, by essentially having her decide that she is indeed the same person she was and it's time to return to her family, but then have her ponder whether maybe she was right in the first place and there's no way for her to go back to what she was.

It's actually one of the more persistent weaknesses in the show's writing: the writers are great at coming up with compelling character moments, but not as good at establishing coherent character arcs. So, for instance, Arya's arc of the past few seasons ends up being that she comes to accept that she's No One but then realizes that she's still Arya Stark, then enacts a cold-blooded campaign to avenge her family, but not too bloody because she won't kill innocent Lannisters, and then she lets go of the campaign so she can go home, but then wonders whether she's too wild to actually do that . . . It's all over the place, and even if usually works in the moment, in the long term it ends up moving the character every which way in support of no clear end.

[GrailKing]

45 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I kept thinking GRRM was probably having a fit over Sam being so proactive and greyscale being so easily cured.  (Well, except for the cutting and oozing.)

I think between last weeks poop /soup and this weeks GS progression some time elapsed.

[WatchrTina]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:24 AM, that one guy said:

I'm betting that sometime in the next 11 episodes Nymeria and her wolfpack will come to  Arya's aid.

Yes please.  I want Nymeria and the HUGE wolf-pack we've heard about from the books (not just the handful who menaced Arya) to turn up at a climactic moment during the fight with the army of the dead.  We've seen that wolves can wreck havoc against wights (RIP Summer . . . seriously please rest in peace and don't rise as a wight) so I think Nymeria's wolf-pack should come roaring in to a battle like Stannis against the Wildlings and the knights of the Vale arriving at the last minute to the Battle of the Bastards.

Edited July 28, 2017 by WatchrTina

[screamin]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Testosterone is the main driver for male sex drive. If GW doesn't have his testicles, then he wouldn't have the sexual passion he displayed while kissing Missandei. I'm far from an expert here and I'm probably missing something, but if I am unsure about it, I'm guessing I was not the only one.

Testosterone is also a driver for female desire. It's not only produced in testicles. Women (and presumably eunuchs) produce a certain amount of testosterone through their suprrarenal glands.

[GrailKing]

40 minutes ago, Miles said:

Really? Two sandsnakes couldn't take out Euron? That makes the show Dorne storyline even more pathetic somehow.

Also Euron was cut by one of them. If he isn't dead within the next episode I'm calling shenanigans of the highest order!

Euron drinks, shade of the evening in books, also more god like evil version.

[Growsonwalls]

Just now, screamin said:

Testosterone is also a driver for female desire. It's not only produced in testicles. Women (and presumably eunuchs) produce a certain amount of testosterone through their suprrarenal glands.

This is OT but they used to castrate males to become singers. Apparently they produced a very particular kind of pure, high sound that composers and audiences loved. Many of these castrati apparently did have relationships with women that were sexual. What that kind of sex entailed is a mystery but I read that castrati were actually in high demand among females because you could enjoy their, uh, labors without the fear of pregnancy. 

[Hana Chan]

Except for the idiocy that Yara's fleet was taken so completely by surprise and didn't notice Euron until his giant ship was right on top of them, it was a pretty solid episode.

Dany getting some harsh truths that she's not exactly going to be welcomed into Westeros with open arms and needs to balance how to conquer as expediently as possible while leaving something worth ruling was needed. Like it or not, Dany isn't being seen as a native daughter coming home. Not with her big armies of Unsullied and Dothraki. Using her Westeros allies for the initial forays made sense, at least in theory. Unfortunately another truism came to light - that the best battle plans fall apart when actually faced with the enemy.

Yay! for Arya heading north. Jon being named KITN is apparently pretty significant news around the kingdoms and is throwing everyone's plans into disarray. I liked Tyrion's note to Jon (though I think he left out the whole "bending knee" part that Dany is demanding) and I can't wait for the big Targ family reunion.

Speaking of Jon... I liked how he handled things this week. Littlefinger was trying to ingratiate himself into Jon's confidence onto to have the KITN ready to choke the life out of him once Sansa got mentioned. Jon is not a fool and he doesn't trust Littlefinger in the least and isn't going to be beholden to him for the last minute cavalry charge. And he's certainly not going to agree to Littlefinger marrying Sansa. As not just KITN but as the nominal head of house Stark, he gets final say over when and if Sansa marries again, and that's the best protection she's got. 

I know that some don't agree with Jon's style of ruling and he is acting more like a military commander than a traditional king. But that's what the North needs right now and Jon is acting accordinging. He hears people out, but in the end he makes his final decision and expects his orders to be followed. I get that after what happened with Robb, the Northern lords want Jon to stay put, but he was right that he needs to meet with Dany personally if he hopes to get her on their side. Leaving Sansa to run things seems like a smart idea because it gives the North a bit of stability (as his sister, she's going to be more respected than anyone else he could appoint). How she'll respond to this new power and if she's still vulnerable to Littlefinger remains to be seen, but Arya's future arrival is going to make Littlefinger's life very difficult.

Would rather have had Sam focusing on helping Jon and less on curing Jorah, but whatever... And Cersi's attempts to strengthen her grip on power does betray how weak her grasp really is. Most of the great houses in the south are openly allied against her. Jon is not going to answer her calls for obedience. The next few episodes are going to get very interesting.

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well folks, Jon is meeting Tyrion soon let's see, WRG to that. I don't think Jon ever gave us thoughts on that in show or book, Sansa still considers herself married to Tyrion, she uses that as a shield in book, never mentioned in show.

The books and the show seem to have different rules about whether non-consummation automatically voids a marriage (as in the show) or merely renders it voidable (in the books). No one in the show seems to have questioned TV Littlefinger's contention that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was automatically voided by non-consummation or questioned the legal validity of her subsequent marriage to Ramsay.

I'm guessing that the fact that Sansa and Tyrion were once married will be mentioned when and if the writers wish to get around to it and not a moment sooner, much like Dany waited until she had arrived at Dragonstone to question Varys' loyalty when realistically she would have done it much, much sooner. 

Sansa must have told Jon about her marriage to Tyrion in their offscreen chat that took place around 6x04 bringing each other up to speed on everything that had happened, since he said in this episode that Sansa would know Tyrion better than any of them. Sansa vouching for Tyrion's character but being unwilling to trust him seems about right, although I'm surprised she didn't bring up that Tyrion has loyally served bad masters before (Joffrey, e.g.).

Edited July 24, 2017 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I think the biggest source of confusion is that the various storylines are not actually happening simultaneously, and it's hard to know how they're all supposed to line up. It seems like Varys should at least know that Jon is on his way to becoming king, since we saw the Battle of the Bastards and much of the aftermath before Varys even made it to Dorne to recruit Dany's Westerosi allies, but the end of Jon's storyline was taking place at a much faster pace than everyone else's, so it's possible much of it took place once Dany was underway.

Or maybe it isn't? I haven't actually gone back and checked the various intersection points. I would hope that someone in the writer's room is keeping track of how things line up, but I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that no one is.

By the end of 6-10, Jon named King, LF tells Sansa he declared for House Stark for all to hear, Dany just left for Westerous, so even once they landed no one knew they were coming no news for them.

Well that's how I'm looking at it.

[ChromaKelly]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

From Bryan Cogman on Twitter "FYI... We shot a Jon/Ghost scene. Didn't make it in. I tried! Thx for watching, everybody. #Stormborn"

Ugh! I hope all these cut scenes make it into the extras.

Whhhyyyyy would a Jon/Ghost scene not make it in? Especially since they always say the lack of wolves is due to CGI budget issues. Bleh! If they shot it, put it in! I'm sure HBO doesn't mind if the show is an extra two minutes. 

[screamin]

Re: the whole Sansa/Tyrion marriage still valid or not thing...I really wouldn't like it if the showrunners decided to put them together at the end as a facile 'happily ever after' gesture. Their marriage was a product of coercion on both sides (though much more one than the other) and I can't see either character (especially Sansa) really wanting such a union to continue.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Except for the idiocy that Yara's fleet was taken so completely by surprise and didn't notice Euron until his giant ship was right on top of them, it was a pretty solid episode.

Dany getting some harsh truths that she's not exactly going to be welcomed into Westeros with open arms and needs to balance how to conquer as expediently as possible while leaving something worth ruling was needed. Like it or not, Dany isn't being seen as a native daughter coming home. Not with her big armies of Unsullied and Dothraki. Using her Westeros allies for the initial forays made sense, at least in theory. Unfortunately another truism came to light - that the best battle plans fall apart when actually faced with the enemy.

Yay! for Arya heading north. Jon being named KITN is apparently pretty significant news around the kingdoms and is throwing everyone's plans into disarray. I liked Tyrion's note to Jon (though I think he left out the whole "bending knee" part that Dany is demanding) and I can't wait for the big Targ family reunion.

Speaking of Jon... I liked how he handled things this week. Littlefinger was trying to ingratiate himself into Jon's confidence onto to have the KITN ready to choke the life out of him once Sansa got mentioned. Jon is not a fool and he doesn't trust Littlefinger in the least and isn't going to be beholden to him for the last minute cavalry charge. And he's certainly not going to agree to Littlefinger marrying Sansa. As not just KITN but as the nominal head of house Stark, he gets final say over when and if Sansa marries again, and that's the best protection she's got. 

I know that some don't agree with Jon's style of ruling and he is acting more like a military commander than a traditional king. But that's what the North needs right now and Jon is acting accordinging. He hears people out, but in the end he makes his final decision and expects his orders to be followed. I get that after what happened with Robb, the Northern lords want Jon to stay put, but he was right that he needs to meet with Dany personally if he hopes to get her on their side. Leaving Sansa to run things seems like a smart idea because it gives the North a bit of stability (as his sister, she's going to be more respected than anyone else he could appoint). How she'll respond to this new power and if she's still vulnerable to Littlefinger remains to be seen, but Arya's future arrival is going to make Littlefinger's life very difficult.

Would rather have had Sam focusing on helping Jon and less on curing Jorah, but whatever... And Cersi's attempts to strengthen her grip on power does betray how weak her grasp really is. Most of the great houses in the south are openly allied against her. Jon is not going to answer her calls for obedience. The next few episodes are going to get very interesting.

Couple of quickies, I think Jon may find a kinder, braver person for Sansa, but the final say will be Sansa's alone.

He's the type of leader the North needs, but he does need to listen to Sansa more then he did last week, I think he did better this week, but he has a wee bit more to go.

As nervous as Sansa is being named QITN, it's a confident boost ; anyone notice Brienne's smile when Jon named Sansa? she understood what he did.

[Maximum Taco]

46 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany? He gets dragonglass and maybe the use of her dragons against the Night King...what does  he offer in exchange? He can't spare men to fight for her, he needs them all against the Night King. So what advantage does he offer Dany if she marries him?

He offers his 2 Kingdoms and his crown, bloodlessly. 

Look the marriage is largely insignificant to both parties here, Jon has no desire to sit the Iron Throne or see his son sit there, Dany has no desire for an heir (she thinks she's barren.)

Jon does want dragonglass, and men and ideally dragons to fight against the Night's King.

Dany does want to bring Kingdoms under her rule with as little violence as possible.

If they could do a straight trade of his crown for her resources, they probably would. But the Northerners declared their independence and House Targaryen doesn't have the best reputation, they would not be ok with Jon just giving up the crown.

All the marriage does is improve the optics, Jon isn't giving up his crown and the North isn't "surrendering" to the dragon queen. He's marrying her and a Stark/Snow will sit the Iron Throne once he knocks her up. It doesn't matter if Dany is barren like she thinks, the Northerners don't know that. And even if she is barren, Jon will be the one to take the throne if she should die, and his heir is Sansa (until Bran returns anyway.)

Edited July 24, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[GrailKing]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

although I'm surprised she didn't bring up that Tyrion has loyally served bad masters before (Joffrey, e.g.).

Except in show, they seemed to bypassed all that, no bulbous purple head and all, he was Saint T.

I think Sansa's " it's a trap "is more due to Dany being there then Tyrion asking them to come.

Jon meets Tyrion next week that be a good time for how's my wife?

I gather Danny doesn't know that fact; does she?

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

until Bran returns anyway

And speaking of Bran . . . why has Dolorous Ed not sent a raven to his good buddy Jon to let him know that his little brother just turned up?  There has been enough time for Sam to make his "discovery" about the Dragonstone/dragonglass connection and send a raven to Jon but Ed hasn't gotten around to notifying Jon that his brother (the legitimate heir to Winterfell) is alive?

I'm enjoying the show but yeah, the plot holes are HUGE.

Edited July 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And speaking of Bran . . . why has Dolorous Edd not sent a raven to his good buddy Jon to let him know that his little brother just turned up?  There has been enough time for Sam to make his "discovery" about the Dragonstone/dragonglass connection and send a raven to Jon but Ed hasn't gotten around to notifying Jon that his brother (the legitimate heir to Winterfell) is alive?

I'm enjoying the show but yeah, the plot holes are HUGE.

This could be another matter of different places moving at different speeds.

We don't know that time is passing in Oldtown at the same rate time is passing in the North.

Sam could have made his discovery months before Bran even arrived at the wall.

It will be odd if Bran shows up totally unannounced though.

[BooBear]

38 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Except for the idiocy that Yara's fleet was taken so completely by surprise and didn't notice Euron until his giant ship was right on top of them, it was a pretty solid episode.

I saw this episode very differently than others. With regard to Euron sneaking up on Yara... it is beyond obvious that she was betrayed by a member of her crew. All Iron born right? I even think this is obvious when Euron starts offering up gifts to Cerci. He seemed pretty confident he could get her something good.  He also knew when to take Yara, when she was sailing for Dorn, was unprotected, and had Ellaria and her daughters on board. This could be one unnamed Iron Born that was loyal to Euron after the fact.  I think it is illogical to assume he just ran into her. His men seemed to know who the Dorn people were and exactly who needed to be taken. How would they know who these people were otherwise? How would Euron know what sand snakes to kill and what ones to take back to Cerci. 

I did and still do think that Tyrions plan is a good one even if it won't work out in the end.  The Dorn and Highgarden armies are pawns that can be destroyed and leave Dany with her same army. Not to mention that if their armies are weakened,  Highgarden and Dorne can't come back and attack Dany.    My one complaint is that they seem oblivious to the time factor. Giving Cerci too much time to prepare. 

The timing for Dani going after Varys seemed obvious from the dialog in the episode. He had gotten her all that he was ever going to get for her from Kings Landing. He got her a Lannister, he got her Dorne, he got her Highgarden and now, she had all those things and he was of no real use. This was the time to test his loyalty because, if he wasn't loyal... there was no point keeping him around anymore. Given his history, he just turned into a liability they moment he could offer no more unique things for team Stormborn. 

Same for Tyrion not going crazy on Ellaria. He had to keep her as an ally and pretend he wasn't that upset.  Because, obviously, he wants her assuming she is a member of the team and won't be immediately killed once she is of no use. But I think even Dany would agree to her death.  But for now they need to play it cool. 

[ChromaKelly]

I'm not a big nerdrage book fan, but the fucking up of Dorne and the Dornish characters has been awful, and this episode was the culmination of that. I was actually hoping Ellaria and all the Snakes would get wiped out as a way of just being like, eh, nevermind about Dorne forget that happened. I still can't get over that they killed their own family members.
Also was waiting for Tyrion to say something about being married to Sansa. Is Jon going to be a Dragonrider? Dying to know how it's going to come out that he's a Targ. Varys? Will the dragons recognize him? 
Speaking Tyrion, has he always spoken with such a pronounced lisp? And why is he sporting a fake beard? Guess Dinklage is filming something else at the same time. Cersei's wig is really bothering me too. 
I was really sad about Nymeria turning away from Arya, but I'm really hoping she will come back at just the right moment.
Has Davos spoken any lines yet?
Surprised Varys didn't say anything about Mel being a Lord of Light priestess, since he hates them. So she's just been chilling on Dragonstone? 

[benteen]

Davos spoke several lines, particularly in the scene where Jon gets Tyrion's letter.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 hours ago, riprock said:

Arya's reunion with Nymeria was underwritten too. Why couldn't they have her say, "THAT’S not you" instead of "it's not you"? That parallels the line exactly and doesn't make me think that maybe Arya's talking to a different direwolf.

According to my closed captioning, that is what she said.  "That's not you."

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I totally saw that saw as Nym telling Arya to find her pack. It's obvious from looking at Nym that she's done well for herself. 

Was I just imagining it, or did Nymeria's pack not resemble the litter she was born in?  I distinctly saw a Ghost, a Shaggydog and potentially a Grey Wind.

[anamika]

50 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Whhhyyyyy would a Jon/Ghost scene not make it in? Especially since they always say the lack of wolves is due to CGI budget issues. Bleh! If they shot it, put it in! I'm sure HBO doesn't mind if the show is an extra two minutes. 

I rather they had the Jon/Ghost scene in there than the pointless Jon/LF scene. Would have made a nice parallel with the Arya/Nymeria scene. Last we saw Ghost was in episode 602. What a waste.

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Except in show, they seemed to bypassed all that, no bulbous purple head and all, he was Saint T.

I think Sansa's " it's a trap "is more due to Dany being there then Tyrion asking them to come.

Jon meets Tyrion next week that be a good time for how's my wife?

I gather Danny doesn't know that fact; does she?

Tyrion hasn't mentioned Sansa since Season 4 and Tyrion's supposedly smitten with Dany if Peter Dinklage is to be believed, so there's no reason to think he would start now. Jon and Sansa obliquely referencing Sansa's brief marriage to Tyrion in 7x02 may be as close as the show ever gets. I agree that it would be weird if the marriage weren't referenced if Jon and Tyrion have the opportunity for a substantial conversation, but the show is full of such omissions.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

THIS.  They've reduced Jaime and his storyline to a one-dimensional bore, something he and it certainly isn't in the books.  It's a waste of NCW's talents.

I admit, when Qyburn talked about killing a dragon, I was hoping we'd get the maester conspiracy involving the death of the dragons.  So much for that...

Either that, or I wondered if he was attempting to reanimate dragons from the skulls somehow.

[Miles]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Euron drinks, shade of the evening in books, also more god like evil version.

So? Becoming immune to poison by drinking a bit of it over time is a myth. Even if that did work, which it doesn't, it would only work against that particular poison and I doubt that the sand snakes just happen to use that one.

[VCRTracking]

Loved all the callbacks to the past. Varys various plots and schemes including against Dany. Tyrion and Jon remembering their connection at the Wall. Jon threatening Littlefinger like Ned.  Arya saying "That's not you." to Nymeria a parallel to telling Ned "That's not me." when he says she'll become a lady and mother.

"He must be quite a man." Wow they are really feeding the Jon/Dany shippers a lot.

I'm really glad it was Davos was the first to finally make the connection that White Walkers are killed by fire and that dragons breathe fire!

Took me to remember the bald bannerman was Sam's dad. Yep still a jerk. He showed some honor by remaining loyal to House Tyrell but Jaime managed to sway him.

At first I thought Cersei had no chance against the dragons until Qyburn unveiled the giant crossbow! I blame my not guessing on me trying to forget the Hobbit movies.

Sansa really was trying to not interject this time until he said he was going to Dragonstone. Everybody there thought it was not a good idea. Forget that viewers want to see these two characters finally meet. Objectively I can see why it would seem crazy that Jon go himself. It makes sense especially the North would not forget what the Targaryens did to Ned's father and brother and wouldn't trust Dany.

Lady Olenna has always been one of my favorites but she is speaking from grief and rage and her advice shouldn't be listened to this time. She has nothing to live for now except revenge and wants Dany to just burn everything down.

Once again I love Sam. "You're not going to die today Ser Jorah." Like Hot Pie I hope they both survive all this.

Except for Oberon the Dorne storyline was never a compelling part of the show. Yeah it was interesting in the books but on the show it was just a diversion on what was already a diverting part from what the important stuff happening beyond the Wall. Also the Sandsnakes seemed an instruction on how NOT to write badass female characters. Lesson one: If you're going to make them super arrogant, make sure you show that they can back that up. The two Sandsnakes aren't going to be missed by viewers of the show. They especially made sure to make them super annoying just before with them taunting the other one childishly.

I don't blame Theon at all for running away. He had no chance. If he had attacked Euron would have killed both him and Yara.

Edited July 24, 2017 by VCRTracking

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany? He gets dragonglass and maybe the use of her dragons against the Night King...what does  he offer in exchange? He can't spare men to fight for her, he needs them all against the Night King. So what advantage does he offer Dany if she marries him?

Umm... she gets The North?  She wants to rules the Seven Kingdoms and The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms.

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

We know Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor, but is she blamed for it in Westeros?

Tarly seemed to know the truth. Hence his pointed comment about "ashes" to Jaime. I think Tarly gets a bad rep. In the books he is a hard taskmaster but loyal to his King and he keeps good control over his men. He hangs rapists in one scene to establish control. He is cruel to Samwell but otherwise seems an upright man of his time. I liked seeing Jaime woo him because it was a smart move.

Also, I still don't know what Jaime is supposed to do other than support Cersei. He has no reason to side with Dany and this is an invading force. The Unsullied are disciplined but I wouldn't want the Dothraki in my country. Even the Wildings seem more familiar  (other than the Threnns). To my mind, Jaime helps defeat foreign enemies and then works on his sister. Cersei is coming off quite sane, btw. Is cruelty scarier when the person cooly sane?

Oleanna delights me and it was good to see Dany listen to her. Dany took the advice of two crones this week. Or at least listened.

The timing of the Varys talk was annoying but the actual talk was necessary. Varys may feel like a good guy but his motivations are complex. He let Ned Stark die. He might have tried harder to protect Sansa. And he seems to lack critical information but is that true or is he withholding? Is Jon his backup plan much like he had Aegon as a backup in the books?  I am fond of Varys but he is troubling.

[penelope79]

15 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I saw this episode very differently than others. With regard to Euron sneaking up on Yara... it is beyond obvious that she was betrayed by a member of her crew. All Iron born right? I even think this is obvious when Euron starts offering up gifts to Cerci. He seemed pretty confident he could get her something good.  He also knew when to take Yara, when she was sailing for Dorn, was unprotected, and had Ellaria and her daughters on board. This could be one unnamed Iron Born that was loyal to Euron after the fact.  I think it is illogical to assume he just ran into her. His men seemed to know who the Dorn people were and exactly who needed to be taken. How would they know who these people were otherwise? How would Euron know what sand snakes to kill and what ones to take back to Cerci. 

I did and still do think that Tyrions plan is a good one even if it won't work out in the end.  The Dorn and Highgarden armies are pawns that can be destroyed and leave Dany with her same army. Not to mention that if their armies are weakened,  Highgarden and Dorne can't come back and attack Dany.    My one complaint is that they seem oblivious to the time factor. Giving Cerci too much time to prepare. 

The timing for Dani going after Varys seemed obvious from the dialog in the episode. He had gotten her all that he was ever going to get for her from Kings Landing. He got her a Lannister, he got her Dorne, he got her Highgarden and now, she had all those things and he was of no real use. This was the time to test his loyalty because, if he wasn't loyal... there was no point keeping him around anymore. Given his history, he just turned into a liability they moment he could offer no more unique things for team Stormborn. 

Same for Tyrion not going crazy on Ellaria. He had to keep her as an ally and pretend he wasn't that upset.  Because, obviously, he wants her assuming she is a member of the team and won't be immediately killed once she is of no use. But I think even Dany would agree to her death.  But for now they need to play it cool. 

I did not think about a mole in Yara's crew, it makes perfectly sense. I agree with your whole post.

I remember lots of people mentioning that A Song of Ice and Fire will be revealed to be the title of some sort of book Samwell Tarly will write in the end. I think this episode officially endorses this idea: the Archmaester is telling Sam that he's writing A Chronicle of the Wars Following the Death of King Robert I. But then he looks Sam's face and realises he doesn't like it, and Sam suggests it would need a much more "poetic title". I am now positive that Sam will be the one to finish this chronicle and that he will change the title into A Song Of ICe And Fire.

[VCRTracking]

Jaime continuing to be so loyal to Cersei now just makes me more certain he's going to be the one to kill her in the end.

[screamin]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Umm... she gets The North?  She wants to rules the Seven Kingdoms and The North is the largest of the Seven Kingdoms.

My point was she gets no practical material advantage to winning her war. Jon can't give her any soldiers for her to fight with, he can't spare them. An impressive coalition on paper is a poor substitute for actual military support. In actual numbers and military might Euron would be a better bet (not that I think Dany would take him either, especially now).

[Dev F]

55 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Whhhyyyyy would a Jon/Ghost scene not make it in? Especially since they always say the lack of wolves is due to CGI budget issues. Bleh! If they shot it, put it in!

I assume what Cogman meant is that they shot Jon's side of it. Presumably they then ran out of money or time to do the wolf shoots and CGI compositing.

17 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I saw this episode very differently than others. With regard to Euron sneaking up on Yara... it is beyond obvious that she was betrayed by a member of her crew. All Iron born right? I even think this is obvious when Euron starts offering up gifts to Cerci. He seemed pretty confident he could get her something good.  He also knew when to take Yara, when she was sailing for Dorn, was unprotected, and had Ellaria and her daughters on board. This could be one unnamed Iron Born that was loyal to Euron after the fact.  I think it is illogical to assume he just ran into her. His men seemed to know who the Dorn people were and exactly who needed to be taken. How would they know who these people were otherwise? How would Euron know what sand snakes to kill and what ones to take back to Cerci.

Ah, now that would make some sense. Though I'm less willing than you to assume that a whole plot thread along these lines happened off screen. If we were meant to think this is what was going on, we should've at least seen some of her crewmen switching sides, and preferably an established Ironborn character or two who could lend a face/voice to the heel turn.

1 minute ago, Miles said:

So? Becoming immune to poison by drinking a bit of it over time is a myth. Even if that did work, which it doesn't, it would only work against that particular poison and I doubt that the sand snakes just happen to use that one.

Yeah, I think a much cleaner explanation is just that the Sand Snakes weren't expecting a battle and thus didn't have time to poison their weapons. We actually see one of them sharpening her blades right before the attack, don't we? You wouldn't apply poison to a dull blade and then scrape it off with a whetstone.

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I liked this episode more than the last. Some really good connections and conversations, and it's nice to see things moving along quickly. Stuff happens.

The only misstep I think was the Missandei/GW scene. It's not that I dislike their story, I am just not fond of how they did it. Back in Mereen Miss asked GW why an unsullied would go to a brothel and he said "I don't know". I was upset at that time that he didn't talk about how men still liked to be cuddled and craved human contact, I mean that's straight from the books. So now when we see the culmination of their love story, it's played as the usual sexy times sex scene. There was some passion in that kiss GW gave her. I'm unsure of what level of testosterone would be driving him at that point, but they could have discussed it. Had them talk about what they could each get out of a physical relationship rather than rush it straight to the sexy times. It's a small complaint, but it wouldn't have taken much care with their story to make it different than a basic sexy love story.

I wanted Tyrion to hate Ellaria rather than be mildly annoyed. Good riddance to the two Sand Sankes - two more to go. I could ask how Euron's men knew which ones to leave alive and take rather than an order to take all women alive, but since it ended with their deaths, I don't exactly care.

I think there were two big things happening in this episode for book readers. Arya and Nymeria and the Prince that was Promised. I don't think this is how book Arya and Nym will go, but it's possible I guess. Her story, however, is how much she is clinging to Arya Stark in the House of Black and White and she still has the wolf dreams. I'm hoping this is a show thing to cut CGI wolves (much like Summer) and not an indication of book plot. The Prince that was Promised being non-gendered is interesting. I'm more inclined to think this is a book thing. It's been speculated, but this gives it a lot more weight, IMO.

Truth be told, I was annoyed they're spending what precious little episode time we have left on Missandei and GW.  There's plenty of other serious plotlines I'd like to see onscreen a lot more.

[GrailKing]

29 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I saw this episode very differently than others. With regard to Euron sneaking up on Yara... it is beyond obvious that she was betrayed by a member of her crew. All Iron born right? I even think this is obvious when Euron starts offering up gifts to Cerci. He seemed pretty confident he could get her something good.  He also knew when to take Yara, when she was sailing for Dorn, was unprotected, and had Ellaria and her daughters on board. This could be one unnamed Iron Born that was loyal to Euron after the fact.  I think it is illogical to assume he just ran into her. His men seemed to know who the Dorn people were and exactly who needed to be taken. How would they know who these people were otherwise? How would Euron know what sand snakes to kill and what ones to take back to Cerci. 

 

Maybe on the spies, but Euron already knew what was going to happen, he was planning on attacking them, his route puts him to Dorne via Old Town.

I don't think he knew Danny was going to split forces, he's leaving ,they're going ;to Dorne, his men see Yara before hers sees his, both have dark sails, it's dark etc.

[huahaha]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

My point was she gets no practical material advantage to winning her war. Jon can't give her any soldiers for her to fight with, he can't spare them. An impressive coalition on paper is a poor substitute for actual military support. In actual numbers and military might Euron would be a better bet (not that I think Dany would take him either, especially now).

Dany was pretty clear with Daario that she's planning to marry in order to secure the realm. Jon has the north. I can't think of a more advantageous alliance at this point. He may be thinking of White Walkers, but she isn't.

[ChromaKelly]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And speaking of Bran . . . why has Dolorous Edd not sent a raven to his good buddy Jon to let him know that his little brother just turned up?  There has been enough time for Sam to make his "discovery" about the Dragonstone/dragonglass connection and send a raven to Jon but Ed hasn't gotten around to notifying Jon that his brother (the legitimate heir to Winterfell) is alive?

I'm enjoying the show but yeah, the plot holes are HUGE.

Also, will Bran showing up at Winterfell cause issues with Jon and Sansa being in charge? Bran is the rightful heir to Winterfell.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, huahaha said:

Jon has the north. I can't think of a more advantageous alliance at this point. He may be thinking of White Walkers, but she isn't.

Wait til she sees him.  It will seem even more advantageous then.

[Miles]

2 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, I think a much cleaner explanation is just that the Sand Snakes weren't expecting a battle and thus didn't have time to poison their weapons. We actually see one of them sharpening her blades right before the attack, don't we? You wouldn't apply poison to a dull blade and then scrape it off with a whetstone.

I might grudingly accept that one. I still think it's a bit of stretch. You generally wouldn't wipe the poison off the blades, between battles, but I guess it's possible that this just happened to be a weapon that was just in the process of sharpening, which is why the sand snake had wiped off the poison. In that case Euron would be the luckiest man in the world. He should totally play the westerosi lottery.