Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[John Potts]

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon. Unless he's engaging them on land (which I guess he could, but seems unlikely - surely the Golden Company have their own Generals and Euron is a sailor), the idea of a ship mounted ballista/scorpion taking down a dragon is pretty far fetched*. A dragon can always approach from above (where ship mounted weapons won't be able to hit them) and toast the ship (repeat until the fleet is destroyed). Now any dragon can screw up and approach in a dumb way, but most predators (even dumb ones, which dragons supposedly aren't) know to attack where their prey is most vulnerable. I guess one ship could get a lucky shot in when the dragon is distracted attacking another ship, but it seems highly improbable to me.

* Yes, I get that I'm using the phrase "far fetched" to describe how a navy might fight a dragon, but you get what I mean.

[Bannon]

I certainly don't demand a happy ending, and a story involving a long war really shouldn't have one; the tone should be one of exhaustion; physical, emotional, and moral. The last episode gave me some hope that such a tone would be achieved, but these leaks really suggest a cheap attempt at tragedy via cheap plot twists. If you want a violent conflict among the military leaders of the anti-Cersei forces, you have to write the story differently, for the last two seasons, at least. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Bannon

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, John Potts said:

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon. Unless he's engaging them on land (which I guess he could, but seems unlikely - surely the Golden Company have their own Generals and Euron is a sailor), the idea of a ship mounted ballista/scorpion taking down a dragon is pretty far fetched*. A dragon can always approach from above (where ship mounted weapons won't be able to hit them) and toast the ship (repeat until the fleet is destroyed). Now any dragon can screw up and approach in a dumb way, but most predators (even dumb ones, which dragons supposedly aren't) know to attack where their prey is most vulnerable. I guess one ship could get a lucky shot in when the dragon is distracted attacking another ship, but it seems highly improbable to me.

* Yes, I get that I'm using the phrase "far fetched" to describe how a navy might fight a dragon, but you get what I mean.

Most obviously, a Dragon attack against forces equipped with ballistas should be initiated at night. Dragons, a predator, most certainly have superior senses at night to humans. 

Ugh, I fear we are in for some "Battle of the Bastards" level of character numbskullery, in service to desired plot outcomes.

[Azi]

I long for the days when I thought that Dany dying in childbirth would be the worst ending that could happen to her...

[nikma]

Dragons never attacked at night. 

Some fans just convinced themselves that we had "pointless drama" at WF and not set up for the endgame.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, nikma said:

Dragons never attacked at night. 

Some fans just convinced themselves that we had "pointless drama" at WF and not set up for the endgame.

The Dragons certainly attacked zombies at night in the last episode. Even had aerial dragonfights with a zombie dragon.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Bannon

[Callista]

30 minutes ago, John Potts said:

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon.

Euron will kill Rhaegal in exactly the same way Arya killed the NK: by leaping at him from behind and stabbing him in the chest. While screaming, of course.

Jon will kill Dany in the same way too. Because it turns out that D&D have only one template when it comes to "unpredictable."

[Bannon]

I really am starting to prefer my suggested ending better, wherein the war ends via an Iron Bank repo of The Golden Company and Euron's fleet.

[nikma]

So Daenerys will be thorin oakenshield of this story?

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

So Daenerys will be thorin oakenshield of this story?

If the spoilers are true, yes. At least the movie version, book version (of all characters) were decidedly less interesting/heroic/etc

[BadAssRobinArryn]

55 minutes ago, John Potts said:

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon.  

I believe this, because the actors said before the season began that Euron is going to do something that very few people managed to do.

[Constantinople]

Quote

Jeor Mormont: When dead men and worse come hunting for us in the night, do you think it matters who sits on the lron Throne?

Jon Snow: No

Yet Jon just had to tell Dany that he was Aegon Targaryen on the eve of the Battle of Winterfell

[Stallion12]

That bothered me too, but I accepted it as building up them being the final showdown.

[screamin]

I wonder if it will be an issue at all that at least in theory Jon can bring anyone back to life with a kiss before dying?

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Yet Jon just had to tell Dany that he was Aegon Targaryen on the eve of the Battle of Winterfell

It seemed like everyone knew they could very well die during that battle, and felt like they wanted to set some things straight.  I don't think he wanted to risk dying and having someone else tell Dany later who he really was, which could have hurt her, or made her think he'd been lying to her all along.

Kind of like making Brienne a knight, when you know you are about to die, you tidy up accounts.

I keep going back to Beric being kept alive for a purpose and then dying.  Unless that is just a D & D thing, or maybe even if it is? 

Jon's the other one resurrected by the Red God, so it follows that he too was/is kept alive for a purpose.  Think of all he's done, from warning people about the threat, to uniting them, and helping in the defeat of the threat.  Yet, he's still alive.  If the Red God saving them is a uniting feature, since he is still alive, he must have something else he supposed to do, before he, like Beric, does die.

Maybe that thing is ending this war, TCB at Kings Landing?  Maybe it's killing Dany?  With so many of those she really trusts dying, if the spoilers are true, who else could even get close enough to her to do it?  IF it's true, I think it would break his heart, it wouldn't feel like some kind of victory IMO, it would be the opposite, one more very hard, horrible and devastating thing he had to do.  If he doesn't die after that, he may have another duty to fulfill.

The only "happy" ending I ever saw possible for Jon and Dany was if they "won" the wars, first against the NK, and then against Cersei, but after that, simply left that mess to trusted hands and took off with their dragons to live somewhere remote together, and Jon could build her that house with a red door.  That was a true long shot to me though, because GRRM usually doesn't write "happy."  At least not that kind of happy.

I think the reason the spoilers ring a little bit true for me is that I never really thought there would be a throne at the end, let alone a "winner" sitting on it.   Dany is so, in many ways, admirably, single minded about her destiny to RULE in Westeros though.  Also, if the other deaths are true, along with losing Jorah already, and so many of her forces that she honestly cared about as more than useful weapons?  It's not hard for me to imagine she's extremely upset, as well as the whole "after all of this, all the people I've lost, all the things I've been through, NOTHING WILL STOP me now that I'm really here, in the place I've planned and dreamed of for my whole life!"  thing setting her off, in a way that has her do anything at all to win.  Anything.  If another dragon dies, and the brutal murder of Missandei really happens, especially if it's a spectacle with average people cheering kind of similar to the mob shouting "shame" during Cersei's walk?   I can certainly see Dany and Grey Worm upping their RAGE level to max.  I think that will be crucial to spurring Dany into not caring how many "civilians" die.

Does that make her "crazy?" 

It really doesn't, at least not to me, although who knows what the show will do? 

Does that make her lethal and wanting revenge?

Yes, I think it could, and if she still had Drogon as a weapon?  She could do serious damage during that rage.  It's possible someone would have to stop her, and the person most likely to be able to do that is Jon. 

For all of this to go down though?  While the book has spent time showing the effects of these Kings and Queens and their wars on the "little people" I'm not sure the show has made us really care about the masses who pay the heaviest prices for these wars.  If, in the next episode they spend a bit of time with average folk, I think it will be a clue that these spoilers might be true. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Umbelina
red door

[chrisvee]

maybe Qyburn has figured out how to home brew white walkers and/or wights.

[Umbelina]

What did you guys think of Arya's demeanor after sex?  I'm hoping that look was worry about the coming battle and not "well, that was certainly a let down." 

I can't tell.

If the two of them are destined for a happy ending, that look didn't seem to bode well for that option.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Umbelina

[Colorful Mess]

On 5/3/2019 at 4:56 AM, anamika said:

Because it undermines the entire premise of the story? Political infighting is more important than this existential threat that's been equated to climate change  about which we still know absolutely nothing because these guys started and ended the long night in one episode.

So yeah. That was surprising to me. I did not realize D&D cared this little about that aspect of the show.

I think it's the authors' view too, as I've been saying for a while now over the hiatus. An external battle of good vs. evil, which is what the WW threat always was, is not the main show. The heart in conflict is more important. You can't have that conflict when everyone is on the same side. The WW ending in E3 is totally in line with the authors' logic.

Fire magic is still a threat, however. Dragons and wildfire (which have some kind of magical co-dependency in the books) is still a danger. The world could end in "fire."

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

What did you guys think of Arya's demeanor after sex?  I'm hoping that look was worry about the coming battle and not "well, that was certainly a let down." 

I can't tell.

If the two of them are destined for a happy ending, that look didn't seem to bode well for that option.

Given that she's kissing Gendry in the promo, I think she's obviously not averse to giving it another go. I mean I thought the look was about the circumstances and if I were to make any cheeky comment, it would be that she had clearly worn him out. 

[shireenbamfatheon]

26 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think it's the authors' view too, as I've been saying for a while now over the hiatus. An external battle of good vs. evil, which is what the WW threat always was, is not the main show. The heart in conflict is more important. You can't have that conflict when everyone is on the same side. The WW ending in E3 is totally in line with the authors' logic.

Fire magic is still a threat, however. Dragons and wildfire (which have some kind of magical co-dependency in the books) is still a danger. The world could end in "fire."

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Bran's visions focus just as much on fire as they do on ice because they both pose a great danger to humanity. The WWs have been taken care of and that now leaves the dragons and wildfire. It also explains why Bran was so adamant that Sam tell Jon about his claim right after Sam found out about his father and brother's deaths. It's still just a theory but it wouldn't surprise me one bit since Martin constantly stresses the dragons' destructive nature. There can never be peace with them around.

I'm semi-ok with the spoilers. I hate some of them and love others. My biggest problem with them is that since the show has excluded so many book characters, it seems like there will barely be any characters left. Westeros will be so barren at the end of the show.

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Bran's visions focus just as much on fire as they do on ice because they both pose a great danger to humanity. The WWs have been taken care of and that now leaves the dragons and wildfire. It also explains why Bran was so adamant that Sam tell Jon about his claim right after Sam found out about his father and brother's deaths. It's still just a theory but it wouldn't surprise me one bit since Martin constantly stresses the dragons' destructive nature. There can never be peace with them around.

So maybe the final story is to get rid of Dragons/Fire as well as Ice/Night King? Does all magic go with it?

That would be very LoTR where the ending has the Elves/Gandalf/etc leave Middle Earth. 

Hmm, I kind of like this idea.

[Colorful Mess]

8 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Bran's visions focus just as much on fire as they do on ice because they both pose a great danger to humanity. The WWs have been taken care of and that now leaves the dragons and wildfire. It also explains why Bran was so adamant that Sam tell Jon about his claim right after Sam found out about his father and brother's deaths. It's still just a theory but it wouldn't surprise me one bit since Martin constantly stresses the dragons' destructive nature. There can never be peace with them around.

Exactly, GRRM has said dragons “Oh sure, dragons are cool too, but maybe not on our doorstep.” I don't think he personally romanticizes them. He treats them like violent destructive murder weapons. 

Yeah, Bran's his visions are focused on dragons and wildfire and Dany's father. I like the idea of him directing events. His long look at Tyrion in E1 was also interesting. Wonder where that's leading?

[GrailKing]

Slow down guys, I'm trying to catch up as fast as I can !  LOL

[Umbelina]

I am posting this here, in the spoiler section because of what Peter says starting at about 2:36.

Speaking of Tyrion being like him he says:

"I look up to him.  He just wants justice in this world, he wants to fight for people who don't have a voice." (some clips of him on the show then) "He's just a really good person."

It kind of fits with him giving a speech at the end nominating Bran, and not trying to be King, but sitting on a council, continuing the fight for the people who don't have a voice.

All of these "cast says goodbye" videos are interesting and fun to watch.

[Oscirus]

Bran doesn't want winterfell but sure let the 3er rule over the seven kingdoms, the fuck?

One dragon dies at sea, one at winterfell, and missandei gets beheaded. WIth the way she loses her entire family here, I can see why she'd be pissed. And she doesn't even get to kill Cersei. You have to at least throw Dany a bone, good lord!

Tyrion hates Cersei but sure risk his life to save hers.  GTFOH

Jon takes the black? Is he the only one there now and is sam allowed to throw away his vows? Last I checked , he didn't die so no loophole exists for him.

These spoilers can't be true. Because if they are,  I can't imagine anybody being happy. Also regardless of whether or not this was George's ending, the anger still lies at d and d's feet since we're halfway in and half of this shit isn't built up to.

[Edith]

34 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Exactly, GRRM has said dragons “Oh sure, dragons are cool too, but maybe not on our doorstep.” I don't think he personally romanticizes them. He treats them like violent destructive murder weapons. 

Yeah, Bran's his visions are focused on dragons and wildfire and Dany's father. I like the idea of him directing events. His long look at Tyrion in E1 was also interesting. Wonder where that's leading?

I remembered an old theory I read in reddit asofiaf about Bran’s visions in season 6. Back then I dismissed it, not because they sound impossible but because the user was a shipper, and I tend to stay away from shippers discussions..

[Couver]

6 hours ago, John Potts said:

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon. Unless he's engaging them on land (which I guess he could, but seems unlikely - surely the Golden Company have their own Generals and Euron is a sailor), the idea of a ship mounted ballista/scorpion taking down a dragon is pretty far fetched*. A dragon can always approach from above (where ship mounted weapons won't be able to hit them) and toast the ship (repeat until the fleet is destroyed). Now any dragon can screw up and approach in a dumb way, but most predators (even dumb ones, which dragons supposedly aren't) know to attack where their prey is most vulnerable. I guess one ship could get a lucky shot in when the dragon is distracted attacking another ship, but it seems highly improbable to me.

* Yes, I get that I'm using the phrase "far fetched" to describe how a navy might fight a dragon, but you get what I mean.

All true. But this show tends to go out of its way to keep Cersei viable for as long as possible. So Dany and Jon's side always have to take heavier losses otherwise they would rightly route her.

[GrailKing]

On 5/2/2019 at 9:41 PM, anamika said:

I am going to stand by my theory that it's Bran warging a dragon and burning down KL.

I think with all the shit the Lannister's and Danny's father has done, I wouldn't doubt it's revenge motivated.

 But he's acting way too chilled.

Edited May 4, 2019 by GrailKing

[Morrigan2575]

I have no idea if that poster is right but, that is a well thought out analysis. 

[Minneapple]

24 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have no idea if that poster is right but, that is a well thought out analysis. 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the poster put more thought into the show than D&D did.

Sometimes I think D&D look at the show like "fire bad, tree pretty."

[Morrigan2575]

15 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the poster put more thought into the show than D&D did.

Well, I think that's typical if everything shows and maybe some books too. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

I remembered an old theory I read in reddit asofiaf about Bran’s visions in season 6. Back then I dismissed it, not because they sound impossible but because the user was a shipper, and I tend to stay away from shippers discussions..

That is excellent, and also it does fit in with the spoilers we have seen the past couple of days.

If ICE is gone?  FIRE will be gone too.

I don't feel like looking up all the mythology about "magic" and ice or fire (dragons) returning, but I am pretty sure they are linked together.  (It's been years since I read the books by the way...)

29 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the poster put more thought into the show than D&D did.

Sometimes I think D&D look at the show like "fire bad, tree pretty."

I don't think so.  I think, as the poster does, that those choices were deliberate, as well as the pairings (birthing Craster's kids and birthing the dragons appearing in the same set, for example.)

ETA:  We've seen the "father" of WW die, it makes sense that we will see the "mother" of Dragons die as well.

Really decent post there, and I do think it foreshadows KL burning.  Initially I thought Jaime might kill Cersei (little brother) if she plans to use wildfire in that tinderbox, since it so completes his arc.  Kills one King to keep the city safe from fire, last act, kills a Queen for the very same reason. 

The spoilers just say he dies with her.  It could go either way, someone else kills her and he, Romeo and Juliet style, kills himself to die with her, or he does and same thing.  I'll be shocked if they are both killed by someone else, but that could also work.

More of KL burning from the top down, with Drogon photos right next to that, seems likely that one way or another, Drogon does start (at least) to burn KL.  I can't see anyone letting that continue, except, perhaps Dany, if she's angry enough.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Umbelina
mother/father part

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The only spoiler I trust is the Walking dead one and the original leaker who correctly predicted Lyanna becoming a WW, Theon dying by charging at the NK, and Arya jumping on the NK and killing him 141 days ago. Later, as info was clarified from the same source, the source said Jon kills Dany. The source also doesnt seem to care about the show at all, so more likely to give unbiased info without fleaks.

I don't agree. The info about Theon charging and Arya killing the NK was given dispassionately, but the supposed spoiler about Jon killing Dany was different in 3 ways:

-while the info from the s03 battle came from a family member who was a crewmember or extra in the Winterfell battle and directly involved with them, the info about Cersei or Dany getting killed by Jon came from this family member being told about them. The original source is thus not the same.

-at first the redditor posted Cersei was killed by Jon, rather than Dany; this was changed later to Dany.

-The reason this was changed was that the original wording was that "Jon kills the one he hates". It isn't exactly clear whether "he" refers to Jon or to the family member of the leaker. In the first case, Jon obviously does not hate Dany. In the second case, it seems the source does care a lot about Dany, namely apparently hates her. This is also suspect because crew members generally won't hate characters (not being superfans), all the more so because they actually work with the actors/actresses and Emilia Clark is probably rather popular, which I suspect will colour the perceptions of the character she plays.

7 hours ago, John Potts said:

The Spoiler I can't believe is Euron killing a dragon. Unless he's engaging them on land (which I guess he could, but seems unlikely - surely the Golden Company have their own Generals and Euron is a sailor), the idea of a ship mounted ballista/scorpion taking down a dragon is pretty far fetched*. A dragon can always approach from above (where ship mounted weapons won't be able to hit them) and toast the ship (repeat until the fleet is destroyed). Now any dragon can screw up and approach in a dumb way, but most predators (even dumb ones, which dragons supposedly aren't) know to attack where their prey is most vulnerable. I guess one ship could get a lucky shot in when the dragon is distracted attacking another ship, but it seems highly improbable to me.

* Yes, I get that I'm using the phrase "far fetched" to describe how a navy might fight a dragon, but you get what I mean.

GRRM had a dragon downed by fire from a ship, in one of his fake history style books. It happened in the dance of the dragons, I think.

Ships in a fleet could cover each other, and attacking right from above may not (always) be possible for a dragon+rider.

[Affogato]

I remember seeing an animal trainer who was a spokesperson for some catfood ( I don’t remember which). This man had a cougar who lived in his home and apparently liked to get on the counters. Now —haha — while the Puma was fine with him the Puma had no respect for his wife’s authority. 

So basically if he goes to the hospital for a week she is at the cat’s mercy.

oh hell no. 

The dragons may be fine with Dany around and Rhaegal may be bonding wirh Jon in that way they have with Targs but if Mom is killed i think Drogan may not be so cute and cuddly. 

[GrailKing]

On 5/3/2019 at 1:36 PM, anamika said:

FF thinks that Dany is getting a marriage proposal from Dorne - this could be when the politics of the Jon/Dany situation is discussed.

They're also talking about Jon getting a proposal from a northern house; maybe wyla / willa Manderly. All based on Dany walking away mad.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Jon doesn't hate Cersei either. He barely has anything to do with her so far.

[GrailKing]

On 5/3/2019 at 1:52 PM, SimoneS said:

I also noticed how easy Cersei gets off after all the evil that she has done in the leak. Jaime doesn't kill her. He is with her as they die together. The Red Keep collapsing on her and Jaime isn't particularly satisfying.

Don't forget the map room, D & D wanted an  open roof and payed attention to it.

[Constantinople]

I hope Euron doesn't kill one of the dragons

He's such a clown, he doesn't deserve it

[Colorful Mess]

Drogon almost bit Dany's arm off in the show, and almost bit her head off in the books.

GRRM writes dragons ripping each other's heads off and eating other Targaryens. They even included these gruesome details in the show about Rhaenyra: "It ate her while her son watched."

"They're beasts bred for war and in war they died." - Jorah

Cute cuddly kittens these are not. 

I'm wondering about Jon:

"But you haven't stormed King's Landing. Why not? The only reason I can see is that you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. Which means at the very least, you're better than Cersei." - Jon, S7

So storming KL: no better than Cersei.

How is Jon going to morally support that?

[Smad]

37 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Don't forget the map room, D & D wanted an  open roof and payed attention to it.

Minor correction. D&D wanted that floor map in order to justify why everyone wears black in the show. Cersei used up all the colors of the 7K for that damn map.

15 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

How is Jon going to morally support that?

Because D&D will have spun the personality wheel and for Jon that episode it will land on 'mass murder is totes awesome'.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Smad

[glowbug]

The leaks are just depressing and not satisfying for any character except Sansa. They don’t have anything to say about Arya’s ultimate end so maybe she has a satisfying ending too. Tyrion being on a counsel would be a satisfying end for him if the leaks are wrong about him trying to save Cersei and betraying Dany. Jaime goes back to Cersei, doesn’t kill her, and dies with her. Cersei is taken down by a building (I guess the building is getting revenge for her demolishing the Sept of Baelor) or is taken down by Arya, which isn’t satisfying because she already took down the Night King, and there are so many others that deserve to bring Cersei down more (Tyrion, Jaime, Sansa, and even Dany if Cersei does kill Missandei). Bran being the endgame ruler is also unsatisfying because he’s no longer Bran and it doesn’t make sense with his previous actions. Bronn on the counsel? Unrealistic and nothing about him really qualifies him for that role. 

Dany going mad, having nothing but losses, and then being stabbed by the man she’s in love with? That’s tragic. Dany dying would be sad but if there was some greater purpose to it I wouldn’t mind. Sacrificing herself to save the world, or her loved ones, or in service to something, or even in childbirth because at least then she would be achieving something she wanted (having a child, continuing her family line, etc.). Jon doesn’t get any wins either. He had no part in killing the Night King, has to kill the woman he loves, and then goes off to the North to defend it against an enemy that’s already been destroyed. His heritage doesn’t really mean anything to the story. He could have been Ned Stark’s bastard and it wouldn’t change the story in any way.

None of the prophecies mean anything. Not MMD’s prophecy, the PTWP/Azor Ahai prophecy, the valonqar prophecy, or the YMBQ. Why have prophecies if none of them come true? It’s a waste of everyone’s time. Why name your series after a prophecy that means absolutely nothing (talking about the books here)? Also, why drop all the pregnancy anvils last season if nothing was going to come of them? They aren’t red herrings because they don’t have any purpose. It’s not bittersweet ending at all. It’s tragic and not even in a satisfying or fitting way unless the only character you care about is Sansa and maybe Arya. I do love Arya but no matter how satisfying or fitting her end is it wouldn’t make up for the rest of it. I think I’d prefer an ending where Ned wakes up at Winterfell and realizes it was all a dream. I hope most of these leaks are wrong but after episode 3, my faith in the showrunners has been lost. I’m not 100% convinced any of them are legit but I can’t dismiss them either. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by glowbug

[domina89]

I suspect we are all going to pay the iron price for our devotion to this series... 🙁

[Stallion12]

47 minutes ago, glowbug said:

The leaks are just depressing and not satisfying for any character except Sansa. They don’t have anything to say about Arya’s ultimate end so maybe she has a satisfying ending too. Tyrion being on a counsel would be a satisfying end for him if the leaks are wrong about him trying to save Cersei and betraying Dany. Jaime goes back to Cersei, doesn’t kill her, and dies with her. Cersei is taken down by a building (I guess it’s revenge for her demolishing the Sept of Baelor) or is taken down by Arya, which isn’t satisfying because she already took down the Night King, and there are so many others that deserve to bring Cersei down more (Tyrion, Jaime, Sansa, and even Dany if Cersei does kill Missandei). Bran being the endgame ruler is also unsatisfying because he’s no longer Bran and it doesn’t make sense with his previous actions. Bronn on the counsel? Unrealistic and nothing about him really qualifies him for that role. 

Dany going mad, having nothing but losses, and then being stabbed by the man she’s in love with? That’s tragic. Dany dying would be sad but if there was some greater purpose to it I wouldn’t mind. Sacrificing herself to save the world, or her loved ones, or in service to something, or even in childbirth because at least then she would be achieving something she wanted (having a child, continuing her family line, etc.). Jon doesn’t get any wins either. He had no part in killing the Night King, has to kill the woman he loves, and then goes off to the North to defend it against an enemy that’s already been destroyed. His heritage doesn’t really mean anything to the story. He could have been Ned Stark’s bastard and it wouldn’t change the story in any way.

None of the prophecies mean anything. Not MMD’s prophecy, the PTWP/Azor Ahai prophecy, the valonqar prophecy, or the YMBQ. Why have prophecies if none of them come true? It’s a waste of everyone’s time. Why name your series after a prophecy that means absolutely nothing (talking about the books here)? Also, why drop all the pregnancy anvils last season if nothing was going to come of them? They aren’t red herrings because they don’t have any purpose. It’s not bittersweet ending at all. It’s tragic and not even in a satisfying or fitting way unless the only character you care about is Sansa and maybe Arya. I do love Arya but no matter how satisfying or fitting her end is it wouldn’t make up for the rest of it. I think I’d prefer an ending where Ned wakes up at Winterfell and realizes it was all a dream. I hope most of these leaks are wrong but after episode 3, my faith in the showrunners has been lost. I’m not 100% convinced any of them are legit but I can’t dismiss them either. 

Yea, I can't throw it completely out either because who knows with the writing 

[Umbelina]

I do think the PTWP thing is covered after the last episode, though more may come.

Without Jon, the PTWP, the entire set up in order to kill the NK would not have been possible.  In addition, he was the one to give Arya her first sword, and she is the one who actually kills the NK.

Now, the books may handle it differently, but the above does work for me.

The parts that didn't work for me is that the LONG night lasted exactly ONE NIGHT.  I mean, what?  It was supposed to last years, and yeah, Arya's success stopped it, but come on.  Nothing touched except the North, and even in the North, only Winterfell?

The NK seemed too smart for that, as that video posted in another thread details, the NSFW one because of all the fucks.  Why did he stop at Winterfell?  Yeah, he wanted Bran, but why not enlarge his army with people from the south before attacking his biggest threat?

Flip side, Jon and company had a massive castle that they didn't use for defense, they didn't even put the archers up on the battlements there, etc. etc.  Dragons not used for recon, everyone stand outside, or better yet, hide in the crypts!  I mean, come on, Jon is smarter than that, and so is Dany.

They obviously wanted it over and done, but it's the big bad.  I'm glad that is over an onto the next thing, but the resolve here is obviously short cutted beyond belief because they'd rather spend time with the humans (actors) in KL.

[magdalene]

It won't be satisfying to me if Bran is the ruler in the end.  He is a cypher to me with all the personality of a wet sponge.

There better be one woman in a position of power at the end. It's going to piss me off  if all the strong women get killed off for being crazy or eeevil or both.  And I am left with the likes of Bronn ruling the roost.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I am a Stark fan first and foremost, especially Arya's so I have been pleased with their arc in the latter part of the show. Thus far

Though I don't have the same level or investment in Dany, I will riot if after the epic journey this girl has had, she ends up "mad" and killed by the show' purported hero. Also a man she may or may not love despite familial ties. She always struck me as ruler with an infinity amount of empathy but one who doesn't hesitate to wield her power when its called for. The combinations makes her an effective leader.

If Cercei resists, a war breaks out and KL is left to ashes, ALL who partake in the war are culpable for innocent lives lost 

[Miss Dee]

I found the theory that both "Ice" and "Fire" need to be dealt with intriguing.

I don't want Dany to go mad and die - it's a shitty ending for her and the optics are awful. But what if it was more like Harry Potter being a Horcrux? If she and Jon realized she's the last bit of magic that needs to be excised from the world? Like if the dragons go mad and are uncontrollable, for instance, and Drogon can't be killed unless she dies because magic? That's probably something where Bran could play Captain Exposition for five minutes and explain the stuff in that theory for the audience to set it up.

If that happened, Dany could realize she needs to die for the sake of the world, and maybe that it even has to be Jon who does it (prophecy or what have you), and basically pleads Jon to do it. That way her dying becomes more of a sacrifice, with Jon as the catalyst. Then maybe in her last moments could kind of be like the movie Gladiator, where she finds herself going to the house with the red door and Very Special Guest Star Jason Momoa and her son are there waiting for her.

Not as satisfying as her becoming the benevolent Queen of Westeros, maybe, but I'd rather this show ended like Gladiator than Old Yeller.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Miss Dee

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"But you haven't stormed King's Landing. Why not? The only reason I can see is that you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. Which means at the very least, you're better than Cersei." - Jon, S7

So storming KL: no better than Cersei.

How is Jon going to morally support that?

Maybe he's realised he was wrong? Had Danny gone straight for Kings Landing initially, a lot more people would be alive now (she had overwhelming superiority on land and total air supremacy). Yes, Kings Landing might have been destroyed by wildfire and in any case, a lot of people there would die - but in giving Cersei time to dig in, Team Starkgaryen has ensured that their victory (assuming Cersei doesn't beat them) will be more bloody - and may end in a fiery conflagration anyway.

If the dragons are a stand in for nuclear weapons, it's like arguing that dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought the Second World War to a quicker conclusion and thus caused fewer deaths even on the Japanese side. And with Cersei (and presumably Euron) dead, they could have then moved to face the dead with all three dragons and the forces of the Reach on their side.

War may be an inherently evil activity, but fighting ineffectually just prolongs it. Jon might well agonise over more killing, but sometimes it's necessary to put the mad dog down.

[cambridgeguy]

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

Ugh, I fear we are in for some "Battle of the Bastards" level of character numbskullery, in service to desired plot outcomes.

Remember, these are the characters who had the bright idea of putting their forces in front of their static defenses and decided to have their light cavalry charge into an enemy they literally couldn't see while also limiting themselves to one or two trebuchet strikes thanks to starting it while the Dothraki were charging.  Military stupidity is actually consistent with what we've seen.

[LadyChaos]

9 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Yet Jon just had to tell Dany that he was Aegon Targaryen on the eve of the Battle of Winterfell

Because she had a right to know, and from him.....so he thought he best tell her before they died, which was a real possibility.

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

What did you guys think of Arya's demeanor after sex?  I'm hoping that look was worry about the coming battle and not "well, that was certainly a let down." 

I can't tell.

If the two of them are destined for a happy ending, that look didn't seem to bode well for that option.

I think Arya was sad and worried.  She finally got to see all the people she cared about again, and they were all heading into battle and would likely die.  She doesn't want to lose them.  I, for one, am more disturbed that Gendry is able to sleep since no one else seemed to be able to.