Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Stallion12]

54 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason.

I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

He might not have, it's again all assumed bran will be king. It could be just a council with him on it.

[Brn2bwild]

45 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I’m sorry but how Jon’s ending is not bitter? He has to live knowing he killed the woman he loves; and depending on which (f)leak fully aware that maybe they were all played. Guilty doesn’t even start to cover it and if you think that Jon wouldn’t feel remotely devastated by that then you are not paying attention. Also, does anyone really believe the Starks are going to spend their days together? Never mind Arya leaving, it is clear that they won’t be anywhere close each other when all is done.

I hate how every single character minus Sansa was/is being destroyed for this ending. I’m on board with everyone saying that this would not be a bad ending if there had been character development and all. But as it is they made people dumb on purpose and that is just criminal.

And if Bran knew along along that Tyrion was conspiring with Cersei, what is up with this stupid show that they wouldn't have him say something in the first 1-2 episodes?  Does he just hate Dany that much?

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

And I still have no clue why some people talk about Jon re-starting the Night Watch. To do what, exactly?   Sit on a 700 foot high block of ice and twiddle his thumbs? There’s nothing we need a Night Watch for anymore. The NK, WW and all the wights are gone. The Free Folk aren’t threats (and even if some idiot Northerners continue to think that, Jon doesn’t and certainly wouldn’t do anything to prevent them from moving freely about Westeros). 

One of the filmed endings supposedly involves Jon finding the white walker symbol again as he wanders the north, the implication being that they’re not really gone. 

7 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

If GRR Martin changes his long planned ending, just because the Dany stans don't like it, I will lose a lot of respect that I have for him as a writer. But that won't happen anyway, because he will never write book 7.

Please don’t frame people’s disappointment and anger at this unearned, misogynist ending for Dany as irrational stanning. She has never been my favorite, but I’m absolutely incensed at the way these writers are treating her and it’s putting me firmly on her side. 

52 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason.

I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

The show has dropped the ball on Bran’s story in numerous ways. They skimmed over his 3ER training and they’ve never been comfortable with his magic or figured out what it means. They’ve turned him into a virtually emotionless blank slate. If he’s really been the endgame ruler all along and they knew that for years, their failings in developing his character become an even bigger betrayal.

20 minutes ago, screamin said:

Honestly, if Bronn really ends up getting to rule Highgarden and its huge population of "peasants who do what they're told" (as he remarked approvingly) because of a promise he extorted with a death threat, but was too cowardly to back up by fighting for the side that was to keep that promise, I will be SO pissed. The Queen of Thorns' people deserve better than that craven asshole.

The Bronn stuff is one of the things that convinces me D&D really just don’t take this seriously. They think people will be happy with a bro council ruling Westeros, a couple fan favorites getting nice endings they absolutely did not earn, and Sansa ruling the north as their one nod to “feminism.”

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, loki567 said:

You could make Hot Pie the king. That would be a surprise. Doesn't mean it's plausible. 

Bran doesn't have a claim, a desire to be king, or any connection to the Southern side of the story since book two. I mean hell, how are they even going to get Bran down there in the last two episodes? 

If the rumor is true and GRRM/D&D were looking for a slightly outside-the-box king, I wish they would have just gone Gendry. 

I can just imagine poor Davos being on the verge of tears. Because who else would be the Hand? And seeing as Gendry has had no preparation for this and no other trustworthy allies, Davos could never retire. He’d probably be daydreaming about the laid back days of smuggling onions.

And I say this as someone who very much likes Gendry. But facts are facts. Plus, I’d be worried about him following in Robert’s footsteps. There’s certainly a symmerty if not equality between him getting rejected by Arya to Robert’s situation with Lyana. He’d for sure be getting married off to someone advantageous even before his ass landed on the ugly chair.

[Eyes High]

Bran as the God Emperor of Westeros makes a weird kind of sense to me given that GRRM was a sci-fi author first and came of age as an author when the Dune series was huge. (I doubt Alia/Arya and the Face Dancers/Faceless Men were much of a coincidence, either.) If you’re going to steal, steal from the best.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Eyes High

[screamin]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm not sure where a Tyrion trial is supposed to fit in.  If the bells are supposed to signal surrender, but Dany doesn't stop killing, and Jon kills her for that, where is there time or cause for a Tyrion trial?

Hm...good point.

Well - Friki was adamant that Tyrion would be tried, AND for a betrayal of the Starks. So maybe the city burns and the "Mad Queen" meme spreads, and most of Dany's men move to back Jon as the better choice. Tyrion decides Dany is being too harshly judged and he's going to stay faithful to his queen. Characteristically, he will do this by hatching a Clever Plan to pretend to cast his lot with Jon, take advantage of his previous friendship with Jon to make it plausible and then facilitate Jon's capture/death. This Clever Plan goes awry (as all Tyrion's Clever Plans do over the past few seasons), Tyrion is captured, Dany ends up defeated and either imprisoned or (more likely) killed, and Jon is King of the Iron Throne, and acknowledged as having been such all along as the son of Rhaegar...hence Tyrion is tried for his betrayal of King Jon and the Starks.

That's when Tyrion presents his argument that Jon has been half-consciously undermining Dany's authority with an eye to to his own ascent to power, which became worse after he found out about his own claim to the throne. As Tyrion eloquently presents his evidence  (Jon telling the Council that he nobly and self-sacrificially HAD to give up his crown to Dany to save the North when Dany demanded no such thing, Jon's encouragement of the praise of his prowess and kingship in the victory celebration afterwards instead of crediting Dany, and finally Jon spreading the information about his superior claim among people he KNEW would probably use it sooner or later against the queen) Jon's face starts to crumple with guilt...it's something he's not fully acknowledged even to himself, but he realizes it's true.

Later he goes to where Dany is lying beautifully in state, awaiting her cremation, and looks down at her with bitter remorse...he hadn't meant for her to DIE, really, he only hoped deep inside that she would eventually see that he was more suited to the throne and content herself with being his Royal Consort and having a million of his tiny emo brooding babies...and he bends to kiss her...Her eyes open and Jon falls dead at her feet. Dany stares at everybody staring at her, says, "Screw it all, my unborn baby deserves better than the ugly chair and you people," and walks off to retire to Naath and drive away slave raiders ever after, kicking Jon's body on the way out...

....fuck this shit, I should go back to writing fanfic. :p

Edited May 11, 2019 by screamin

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

He might not have, it's again all assumed bran will be king. It could be just a council with him on it.

The leaks identify Bran as being elected king, and Tyrion even makes a big speech about it (if it was just a council, there's no need to have Tyrion single him out, and the show has been including these Bran/Tyrion interactions that seem like they must be meant to lead up to that happening).

[Stallion12]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The leaks identify Bran as being elected king, and Tyrion even makes a big speech about it (if it was just a council, there's no need to have Tyrion single him out, and the show has been including these Bran/Tyrion interactions that seem like they must be meant to lead up to that happening).

Yes, but this assumes everything in the leaks plays out completely like it says, there were errors in it before, perhaps even if most of it is true there's details missing.

[Stallion12]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Bran as the God Emperor of Westeros makes a weird kind of sense to me given that GRRM was a sci-fi author first and came of age as an author when the Dune series was huge. (I doubt Alia/Arya and the Face Dancers/Faceless Men were much of a coincidence, either.) If you’re going to steal, steal from the best.

The problem is it won't go over well in the show, and will be the bad ending Martin has stated he's afraid of happening, not only is the character hated, it wasn't built up. It might be his endgame, or the supposed leaks got that detail a little wrong.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

Please don’t frame people’s disappointment and anger at this unearned, misogynist ending for Dany as irrational stanning. She has never been my favorite, but I’m absolutely incensed at the way these writers are treating her and it’s putting me firmly on her side. 

I am not thrilled by the development either and have written so several times. The problem lies IMO in the excution and I'm blaming both D and D (for using to many shorcuts to come to the point) and GRR Martin (for not coming to the point at all).

But I assume GRR Martin planned this ending because he had something to say about both Jon and Dany and that this isn't "women rulers are bad". To change it because some fans don't like it were artistically a disappointment.

Edited May 11, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, Stallion12 said:

The problem is it won't go over well in the show, and will be the bad ending Martin has stated he's afraid of happening, not only is the character hated, it wasn't built up. It might be his endgame, or the supposed leaks got that detail a little wrong.

This is the issue with almost everything that has happened this season. 

If we go by the books, all this stuff (Arya dealing the killing blow, Dany going mad, Sansa becoming the smartest person in the room, Jon becoming so besotted he'll do anything for Dany, Tyrion becoming enchanted and then disenchanted with Dany etc.) can possible be earned by the time Martin gets to ADoS. 

But in the show none of that stuff has been earned. D&D are stubbornly sticking to Martin's "vision" for the ending, but the problem is they've abandoned all of the things he wrote or is intending to write in order to earn that ending. 

It feels like this ending is tacked on, because essentially it is. Sure George may have planned it out years and years ago, but as ADwD proved with George's own Meereenese Knot, he's not willing to just jump to the plot points without putting in the work for all of the characters. D&D clearly are willing to do that. 

[Advance35]

Quote

But I assume GRR Martin planned this ending because he had something to say about both Jon and Dany and that this isn't "women rulers are bad". To change it because some fans like it were artistically a disappointment.

He doesn't strike me as the type to alter his ending.  He has gone on record saying that D&D spoke with him and he let them know the ultimate fate of all the major characters.  He did caveat, how he get's there might/will be different, but that was it.   I too, don't think writers should alter their works due to fan demand.   And as has been said upthread, Off-Line, I don't hear to many complaints, the one's I did hear, were people who felt the first 2 episodes were really slow.  I disagree but there we are.

In all honesty, I think the writing became uninspired in Season 7, so maybe that's why none of the rush jobs we see are especially jarring to me.  But then again, I can't credit GRRM and cite myself as confident he'll do better because it's pretty clear, while he has an end-point in mind, he is unable to figure out how he wants his characters to get there.   

I think he will go down as having the most infamous bout of writers block ever.

[Stallion12]

8 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

This is the issue with almost everything that has happened this season. 

If we go by the books, all this stuff (Arya dealing the killing blow, Dany going mad, Sansa becoming the smartest person in the room, Jon becoming so besotted he'll do anything for Dany, Tyrion becoming enchanted and then disenchanted with Dany etc.) can possible be earned by the time Martin gets to ADoS. 

But in the show none of that stuff has been earned. D&D are stubbornly sticking to Martin's "vision" for the ending, but the problem is they've abandoned all of the things he wrote or is intending to write in order to earn that ending. 

It feels like this ending is tacked on, because essentially it is. Sure George may have planned it out years and years ago, but as ADwD proved with George's own Meereenese Knot, he's not willing to just jump to the plot points without putting in the work for all of the characters. D&D clearly are willing to do that. 

Pretty much, though again, we are assuming the leak is completelybtrue, there could be a few details missed that change everything.

For example, the leak said John kills the undead  dragon, he didn't but they did fight. So perhaps bran is on the council but not king. The leaked sees him with them and thinks he is. It's strange that this is leaked and they gave friki a cease and desist and he's contradicting it. Something tells me tgeres more to all this. Not saying it's wrong, but perhaps John at the nights watch is really just with the free folk. Etc.

1 minute ago, Advance35 said:

He doesn't strike me as the type to alter his ending.  He has gone on record saying that D&D spoke with him and he let them know the ultimate fate of all the major characters.  He did caveat, how he get's there might/will be different, but that was it.   I too, don't think writers should alter their works due to fan demand.   And as has been said upthread, Off-Line, I don't hear to many complaints, the one's I did hear, were people who felt the first 2 episodes were really slow.  I disagree but there we are.

In all honesty, I think the writing became uninspired in Season 7, so maybe that's why none of the rush jobs we see are especially jarring to me.  But then again, I can't credit GRRM and cite myself as confident he'll do better because it's pretty clear, while he has an end-point in mind, he is unable to figure out how he wants his characters to get there.   

I think he will go down as having the most infamous bout of writers block ever.

I hear tons of complaints offline, but I didn't tell them it's supposedly leaked bran gets the throne, I'm pretty sure they'd freak out. Again though, this assumes it'll all play out this way.

[Solace247]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'd be thrilled if the spoilers turned out to be wrong, but I don't think they are (basically).  You can kind of see where they're going with it.  If they aren't going to have Dany go mad, why have the Starks trying to turn the viewers against her?  Like Arya saying "She's not one of us", and Sansa saying "She frightens me"?

But I agree with Umbelina that GRRM would at least write it better, and not be all rushed into at the very end, which feels very unsettling.

Honestly, the writing for the Stark girls this season and last comes off as so manufactured, I’m over them. That coupled with Jon being impotent in every scene this season, toss in useless Bran—the Starks are shits.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Bran as the God Emperor of Westeros makes a weird kind of sense to me given that GRRM was a sci-fi author first and came of age as an author when the Dune series was huge. (I doubt Alia/Arya and the Face Dancers/Faceless Men were much of a coincidence, either.) If you’re going to steal, steal from the best.

Yeah, if they go with god emperor bran, I will always think of Dune and Leto.

[VCRTracking]

This is a GREAT non-spoiler analysis twitter thread of the difference between the writing of the last two seasons and GRRM's writing of the books.

An easier place to read it here:

Want to Know Why Game of Thrones Feels So Different Now?

[catrice2]

Does someone have leaked footage like last week? Did that come out on a Saturday or Sunday?

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, if they go with god emperor bran, I will always think of Dune and Leto.

Of course, with Leto it was much more meaningful, because he chose to sacrifice his humanity knowing full well what the cost would be, while TV Bran seemed to have no idea what he was getting into when he downloaded the 3ER. 

It seems that overall, in the show, magic is receding as an influence--the dragons will die, the direwolves are mostly dead, the giants are dead, the COTF are dead, the WWs are dead, Melisandre is dead, zombie Jon is leaving Westeros, the Lord of Light has officially fucked off, the magical Targaryen bloodline will die out (although distant Targ descendants like Brienne and Gendry will survive), etc.--so it seems odd to have a very magical godlike entity running everything. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

On that note, I think Bran's line to Tyrion "Mostly I live in the past" seems like a very odd choice as a line to give Bran if the writers are trying to set him up as the endgame ruler, and a particularly odd choice as a line to Tyrion, who according to the leaks is supposed to give a big speech selling him as the endgame ruler. TV Bran seems more concerned about flipping through his mental files to find just the right wheelchair design than he is about making active contributions to the here and now--a very amusing tweet about 8x03 was "On a scale of Bran to Arya, how much do you contribute to group projects?"--which again isn't exactly a reassuring trait in an endgame ruler. His main qualification seems to be that he doesn't want the throne, but neither does Tormund, and I don't see anyone lining up to crown him.

I'm really surprised that D&D have chosen to write Bran this way if this is how it ends. Maybe it will make more sense after 8x06 airs.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Eyes High

[Stallion12]

6 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Does someone have leaked footage like last week? Did that come out on a Saturday or Sunday?

Sunday, a few hours before we had a ton of stuff.

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Of course, with Leto it was much more meaningful, because he chose to sacrifice his humanity knowing full well what the cost would be, while TV Bran seemed to have no idea what he was getting into when he downloaded the 3ER. 

It seems that overall, in the show, magic is receding as an influence--the dragons will die, the direwolves are mostly dead, the giants are dead, the COTF are dead, the WWs are dead, etc.--so it seems odd to have a very magical godlike entity running everything. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

On that note, I think Bran's line to Tyrion "Mostly I live in the past" seems like a very odd choice as a line to give Bran if the writers are trying to set him up as the endgame ruler, and a particularly odd choice as a line to Tyrion, who according to the leaks is supposed to give a big speech selling him as the endgame ruler. TV Bran seems more concerned about flipping through his mental files to find just the right wheelchair design than he is about making active contributions to the here and now--a very amusing tweet about 8x03 was "On a scale of Bran to Arya, how much do you contribute to group projects?"--which again isn't exactly a reassuring trait in an endgame ruler. His main qualification seems to be that he doesn't want the throne, but neither does Tormund, and I don't see anyone lining up to crown him.

I'm really surprised that D&D have chosen to write Bran this way if this is how it ends. Maybe it will make more sense after 8x06 airs.

More the reason I think the leaks is a little off.

[Eyes High]

Someone on Freefolk dredged up this D&D tidbit from the 7x07 commentary when Sansa orders Littlefinger's execution, which I remember being discussed way back in this thread, but which again seems relevant:

Quote

DB Weiss: What's great about Sophie's performance here is that you really do get the sense that she feels conflicted about it too by the end. You know she soldiers through and does it

David Benioff: There's the real contrast with Daenerys here. She executes people - just doesn't show any hint of compassion or mercy.

...So there's that.

Quote

More the reason I think the leaks is a little off.

If it weren't for the King Bran spoilers, based solely on how S8 is being written, I'd say we were headed for a King Tyrion/Queen Sansa endgame. The writers' and actors' radio silence on their scenes in 8x03, where Sansa and Tyrion are put in a position where they have to step up and defend everyone else (while Jon and Dany are effectively neutralized), really had me thinking. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong for S8, and it could just be that their little moment was setup for Sansa manipulating Tyrion in 8x04, but there's something weird going on there.

Bronn ending up with Highgarden (assuming he gets to keep it, which he may not) as opposed to a more minor castle like the Twins also seems like a big hint to me. Bronn running the Reach and not Sam would be a big boost to Tyrion's power base. Of course, even if the King Bran/Tyrion small council spoilers are right, it sounds like he'll just be Tyrion's puppet, so I guess it will be King Tyrion either way unless Friki's right after all. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

56 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

For example, the leak said John kills the undead  dragon, he didn't but they did fight. So perhaps bran is on the council but not king.

I would imagine that the spoiler about Jon was a misinterpretation of the filming info for him rising up in front of wight-Viserion.  We've seen stuff like that before (e.g., the one mistake in an otherwise complete set of spoilers for the Battle of the Bastards was claiming that Jon beat Ramsay to death).

Tyrion giving a big speech about Bran in the Dragonpit is rather different than that, and hard to mistake.  And they'd have to be wrong about both the whole scene at the Dragonpit and the epilogue that shows Bran and the council.

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Someone on Freefolk dredged up this D&D tidbit from the 7x07 commentary when Sansa orders Littlefinger's execution, which I remember being discussed way back in this thread, but which again seems relevant:

...So there's that.

Yeah, that's a good example of how badly D&D wrote this story, because it's a really silly comparison.  Sansa being regretful about executing somebody she had an (however ill-advised) attachment to and Dany not being regretful about executing some random dudes she has no attachment to really don't scan.  Even in this most recent episode we had Sansa smiling and joking about feeding Ramsay to his dogs; clearly no compassion or mercy there (not that it would have been warranted, but regardless).

Edited May 11, 2019 by SeanC

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

If we go by the books, all this stuff (Arya dealing the killing blow, Dany going mad, Sansa becoming the smartest person in the room, Jon becoming so besotted he'll do anything for Dany, Tyrion becoming enchanted and then disenchanted with Dany etc.) can possible be earned by the time Martin gets to ADoS.

Maybe, but if we went by GRRM, we'd need an extra 10 Seasons to get to the finish. The quality of plotting declined because D&D aren't adapting the story, they're writing the story. But say what you like about D&D, they will have put out 8 Seasons in the time GRRM has failed to produce one book (well, not in the Series, he's  published other books).

I still find it hard to believe the ending is going to be God-Emperor Bran. After all, Bloodraven never sought the throne himself (though he was Hand). And why would anyone want Bran on the Throne anyway? It's not as if he's been coming up with brilliant (if ruthless) plans that only fail because people can't bear to see them through. If the main candidates are unavailable (presumably because they're dead) and the remaining nobles decide they want a Stark on the Throne, surely Sansa would be a more likely choice - she at least seems human and (unless Bran is going to "Hodor" those choosing the next King) that makes her a more likely choice over Robo-Bran.

Edited May 11, 2019 by John Potts

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If it weren't for the King Bran spoilers, based solely on how S8 is being written, I'd say we were headed for a King Tyrion/Queen Sansa endgame. Bronn ending up with Highgarden (assuming he gets to keep it, which he may not) as opposed to a more minor castle like the Twins seems like a big hint to me. Of course, even if the King Bran/Tyrion small council spoilers are right, it sounds like he'll just be Tyrion's puppet, so I guess it will be King Tyrion either way unless Friki's right after all.

Yea still wondering what was the point of the crypt and the googly eyes and all this a good man and just woman business,  If they weren't headed there. Then again regardless of the endings given a lot of this season makes no sense. At this point I won't know what they were going for till we get the behind the hbo featurettes.

[Stallion12]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion giving a big speech about Bran in the Dragonpit is rather different than that, and hard to mistake.  And they'd have to be wrong about both the whole scene at the Dragonpit and the epilogue that shows Bran and the council.

I can see it, perhaps they didn't get all the dialogue and thought bran was made king.

King tyrion would go over a lot better, and he's grrms avatar. 

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Yea still wondering what was the point of the crypt and the googly eyes and all this a good man and just woman business,  If they weren't headed there. Then again regardless of the endings given a lot of this season makes no sense. At this point I won't know what they were going for till we get the behind the hbo featurettes.

There's a lot of weird stuff around 8x03 and Tyrion's references to having given up whoremongering and being celibate for an extended period of time (which has absolutely no bearing on anything as of the end of 8x04 but which must be relevant for some reason), but yes, mostly this:

"What if the Seven Kingdoms, for once in their whole shit history, were ruled by a just woman and an honourable man?"

Did Davos have the right idea but the wrong couple?

11 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I can see it, perhaps they didn't get all the dialogue and thought bran was made king.

King tyrion would go over a lot better, and he's grrms avatar. 

That's just it. Peter Dinklage has openly teased Tyrion's death more than once. In this story, what would the opposite of Tyrion dying be?

Edited May 11, 2019 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

Quote

But say what you like about D&D, they will have put out 8 Seasons in the time GRRM has failed to produce one book (well, not in the Series, he's  published other books).

This is where I am.  And my outlook towards GRRM nosedived because supposedly, he won't accept help to finish his series.  I can't blame him for writers block, it happens, but he's very possessive and doesn't want anyone else's fingertips touching the book version.

If you were a fan of the story (before the show) it was unlikely we would learn anything further than ADoD.

A million theories but nothing factual.  I would have been PO'ed if I never got answers.

Before Winds of Winter aired, I thought Margaery Tyrell had a 50/50 chance of surviving the whole storyline (sniffle. SHE'S who should be Queen).

Edited May 11, 2019 by Advance35

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

I can see it, perhaps they didn't get all the dialogue and thought bran was made king.

King tyrion would go over a lot better, and he's grrms avatar. 

Would also explain Bronn's appearance on the council since Tyrion always did respect Bronn's work with the gold cloaks.

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There's a lot of weird stuff, but yes, mostly this:

"What if the Seven Kingdoms, for once in their whole shit history, were ruled by a just woman and an honourable man?"

Did Davos have the right idea but the wrong couple?

It was bought up again last episode.  I cant imagine that's a random quote.

[MadameKillerB]

what is the point of a 3ER in this universe? I feel like Bran could be used as a Google search if you ask specific questions. He can see the past and parse that code to give you all options for the future. I don't see how having a 3ER has done anything except reveal Jon's parentage and create Hodor. 

ETA: yeah, I obvs forgot the dagger. 

How about previous 3ERs? What is the point of one for this universe?

Edited May 11, 2019 by MadameKillerB

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Would also explain Bronn's appearance on the council since Tyrion always did respect Bronn's work with the gold cloaks.

It was bought up again last episode.  I cant imagine that's a random quote.

If Tyrion is Hand, he would have a considerable say in the constitution of the council, so I don't think that weighs any more into the idea that he'd be king.

But if you're accepting the leak that Bronn is on the council, you also have that Sansa is nowhere near King's Landing in the end, and not in a relationship with Tyrion.  And the leaks also say that Bran is king.

1 minute ago, MadameKillerB said:

what is the point of a 3ER in this universe? I feel like Bran could be used as a Google search if you ask specific questions. He can see the past and parse that code to give you all options for the future. I don't see how having a 3ER has done anything except reveal Jon's parentage and create Hodor. 

He also gave Arya the knife she used to kill the Night King, because, I guess, he knew that would happen.

In general, yes, Bran is nowhere near as useful as his powers suggest he could be.  But that seems to be down to the fact that if he was that useful he would render the plot largely non-viable.

[Affogato]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That's just it. Peter Dinklage has openly teased Tyrion's death more than once. In this story, what would the opposite of Tyrion dying be?

Having to work for a living! A transformational change. Not unlike death  

Is their a budget item in the show for spreading false rumors? Clearly for shooting misleading scenes. Maybe for hiring leakers also?  

[Stallion12]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If Tyrion is Hand, he would have a considerable say in the constitution of the council, so I don't think that weighs any more into the idea that he'd be king.

But if you're accepting the leak that Bronn is on the council, you also have that Sansa is nowhere near King's Landing in the end, and not in a relationship with Tyrion.  And the leaks also say that Bran is king.

He also gave Arya the knife she used to kill the Night King, because, I guess, he knew that would happen.

In general, yes, Bran is nowhere near as useful as his powers suggest he could be.  But that seems to be down to the fact that if he was that useful he would render the plot largely non-viable.

It's the lack of buildup, he's gotten one liners here and there, but overall he just stares, and add that the character is hated, it just won't go over well.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

It's the lack of buildup, he's gotten one liners here and there, but overall he just stares, and add that the character is hated, it just won't go over well.

I wasn't arguing it would go over well.  But as I learned a long time ago, that's not a very good measure of what will actually end up onscreen.

And knowing this supposed endgame does make sense of why we're getting these repeated Tyrion/Bran interactions (even if said interactions don't actually function very well as leadup) at a time when many much more established character relationships have to make due with one scene.

[Detective005]

This hypothetical ending is totally crazy, unbelievable. I mean, what was Bran's role in 8 seasons? He was often not present or not very significant. There is no logic. Why did showrunners upset everything? For what reason? To shock people? But this story is crazy and stupid

[nikma]

Bran will be head of the Council, not King. He won't be classical ruler. 

[sunflower]

Just now, Detective005 said:

I mean, what was Bran's role in 8 seasons? He was often not present or not very significant.

I don't remember where I read this, but didn't GRRM say at least once that whoever finally got the Iron Throne would be insignificant? I have to find the quote. Having said that, I don't believe Bran is insignificant, D&D just don't know how to show his story properly. Which is a huge disappointment. He's a Stark, Bran the Broken, one of so many Brandon Starks. I love this kid and find his story tragic and I'd like to see him someone shake off this 3-eyed Raven-ness if that was possible. 

[nikma]

Tyrion and Sansa as rulers would be nice twist if GRRM and D&D wanted to keep (this type of) monarchy.

Breaking the wheel = destroying the Iron Throne

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Bran ending up king would be truly shocking for all but a handful of fans, though, even in the book fandom where pretty much every theory imaginable has been exhaustively discussed. It will be a real surprise.

Honestly, back when I thought there would be a throne at the end (when I started reading the books) I thought it would be Rickon.  The youngest, most unexpected Stark with a temper.  I moved on to thinking it might be Sansa because of her learning curve which seemed to be leading to that.

In the books, Bran is still becoming a tree really, which is the only reason I ruled him out.  His magic hasn't fully been explained, and it's certainly not been well explained in the show either.  Although from the show, he can see past, present, and future which would be damn valuable while being an overseer.

Looking back though, him having that first chapter should have been a huge clue.  I still don't think he will be KING, I think Westeros is moving on to more of a commonwealth system, eventually to move on to something more democratic/socialist.  We've already seen the North "proclaim" Jon King of the North, a kind of election.  We've seen the Wildlings for years elect their leaders and depose them with other elections.

5 hours ago, loki567 said:

You could make Hot Pie the king. That would be a surprise. Doesn't mean it's plausible. 

Bran doesn't have a claim, a desire to be king, or any connection to the Southern side of the story since book two. I mean hell, how are they even going to get Bran down there in the last two episodes? 

If the rumor is true and GRRM/D&D were looking for a slightly outside-the-box king, I wish they would have just gone Gendry. 

Why?  Gendry would just be more of the same destructive "inheritance" Kings.  As poorly as the show is handling this?  I can see (I think) GRRM's intent here to move Westeros forward and away from that same old shit.

5 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Some book fans have theorized that Bran ends up being the King

I agree, especially as the show expanded on Bran's journey, and when they killed off Rickon, for me, I suspected some kind of leading role for Bran.  I seriously hope it is overseer and not King.  He would be almost perfect really, his abilities beyond valuable as far as ending injustice, and being able to really see how the people of Westeros live, their needs, their desires...

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Book Bronn has established himself as Lord Protector of Stokeworth.  I expect he'll end the books a well-off lord, but not with anything nearly so big as Highgarden.

Could be.  I love Bronn and I think his arc was beautifully summed up in that little speech he gave saying all of their "glorious ancestors and Lords" had once been like him.  Power was seized by the best murderers and conquerors, so get off you high horse...etc.  I adored that speech, but it seemed so many, at least here, just brushed past it, or dislike him so much that they didn't hear what I think is one of GRRM's MAJOR messages.

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Bran will come down for the postwar conference, same as Sansa.

The endgame ruler is one of the things D&D have known right from the beginning, so that's not going to be their own invention.  It's something that I've absolutely read meta about in the fandom, though it was certainly not the most popular theory, since Bran's prong of the story has struggled as far as pacing goes.

Also, showrunners have skipped that magic, so it's hard to understand Bran.  The only magic they seem to care about is sexy Red Priestesses and Dragons.  In the book, I'm sure it will be more fleshed out.

Ditto, in the book we will struggle along with all the people gathering step by step rather than using the TV teleporter.  I WISH there was a middle ground both could reach.  😉

Also, if KL is destroyed?  It may no longer BE the capital.  At least in the books. 

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

That weird 8x04 scene where Tyrion promises Bronn Highgarden seems to me like a strong indication that Tyrion's going to survive and end up in a position of considerable power. Bronn has bowed out of the KL battle, meaning he's pretty much guaranteed to survive to the end, and he has threatened to kill Tyrion unless he obtains Highgarden for him. What would be the point of that scene unless Tyrion is in a position to deliver on that promise? If he's tossed in prison for treason and executed, it hardly matters. And if he can't deliver on that promise, then Bronn will kill him, and that doesn't seem like a likely end for the character (particularly since GRRM probably has no idea what to do with Bronn). So Tyrion is likely going to be running shit by the end of the show, whether it's as Bran's Hand or as something else, since he will be sufficiently powerful to deliver on his promise to Bronn (or else die). He has been set up to have at least one extremely powerful ally in Bronn, since Tyrion and Bronn always got on very well as long as Bronn was being paid. (Bronn even guilted Jaime into visiting Tyrion while he was imprisoned in Season 4, which is probably the closest thing to genuine feeling he has ever shown.)

We are going to see Highgarden in exterior shots if WOTW is to be believed, so this Highgarden thing is definitely being addressed in 8x06.

Maybe Highgarden becomes the new capital? 

I like Bronn, in his rough way, he has always kept his word.  He's fought for every single thing he has.  He was a "small folk" destined to be trampled by the Lords and Ladies and Kings and Queens, but he survived that and triumphed, and in the end got what he dreamed of.

He's also been brave, and forward thinking all along, fighting without heavy armor for example, and that wonderful speech was fairly well earned.

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Not paying attention to history means you will repeat it? If Bran is the keeper of history  his seat on the iron throne takes on a symbolic meaning that Gendry would not. 

They really arent working towards this, though. I mean coherently. 

Bran also sees present and past, at least we know that much. 

I completely agree they aren't working through this though, probably because GRRM hasn't really fleshed it out yet in the books, since obviously, Bran will be the dark horse in the back of the pack for a while longer there.

4 hours ago, MrsR said:

Well, Bran is Jon's heir.

It's going to be Jon who wins the throne only to abdicate.

Next up, Bran.

Nothing is going get by Bran. No amount of scheming and backstabbing will work around Bran.

And he'll live a long time.

Bran wouldn't be Jon's heir, but I would love it if Jon is crowned King and abdicates.  I also would like him to remove the celibacy part if he starts up a new Night's Watch.  Let them have wives and families, they can still guard.

Yeah, Bran will live a long time, and if I'm keeping my books stuff straight, when he does die, his gifts pass to a new 3ER, as they passed to him?  I honestly can't remember it all, it's been years since I read them.

4 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

And the franchise will die, and Martin would dodge the pitch forks. He hasn't done anything for people to accept it. He's also extremely hated, if this was the endgame, they had to build towards it. It's not bittersweet it's just bitter.  Better they just have a council of equals with all the surviving characters on it.

I agree that they didn't build toward it in the show.

I think GRRM will do it in the books, and for me at least, "bittersweet" will describe that.  IF he ever finishes.

4 hours ago, merrick715 said:

I think Tyrion will end-up, in a place of power but Bronn won't get a reward. Bronn is barely a supporting character in the books, but his role on the show has expanded. Since the show cut out Willas and Garlan Tyrell, and Bronn is a fairly popular character, the show had Tyrion promise Bronn Highgarden.

Why should Martin dodge the pitchforks? The endgames of the major characters on the show will be the same as Martin's ending. I think the only difference between the show and the book is Martin will spend more time on the journey the characters will go through, so it doesn't feel rushed as it does on the show.

Already addressed the Bronn stuff above, I do think he is a much more important character than people think.  Yes, he was comic relief as well in the show, but his rise told a tale about the "nobles" that needed to be told.

God knows GRRM has no idea how to "rush" so I agree!

4 hours ago, Leila6 said:

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason.

I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

Information that is important to us, presumably might not be important to Bran, since he has an overview that is massive and that we don't see, and the show hasn't helped with that AT ALL.

An analogy might be looking at earth from outer space, and having the capability to zoom in on anything past/present/future, things important to a situation that effects mankind would be his focus, not the small shit.

So, Jon needed to know who he really is.  Littlefingers needed to be stopped and to face justice.  Ditto with warging, he had to warg in to Hodor a few times.

When Bran says he must survive, he's not talking about Bran, he's talking about the 3ER.

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Honestly, if Bronn really ends up getting to rule Highgarden and its huge population of "peasants who do what they're told" (as he remarked approvingly) because of a promise he extorted with a death threat, but was too cowardly to back up by fighting for the side that was to keep that promise, I will be SO pissed. The Queen of Thorns' people deserve better than that craven asshole.

I will love it.  But I covered it all above, it's quite likely that the first Lord of Highgarten was just like Bronn.  Also, once Bronn's goal/dream is met?  He can settle down and relax, be kind, and we do know he can be fair, and be loyal, and true to his word.

3 hours ago, Stallion12 said:

Because it's not going to go over well, and he will get backlash, it'll be d@d s fault, but the fans will be pissed if the rumored ending is true, it's just bitter, not bittersweet. They will blame Martin. This of course, assumes the rumors are true. Martin has said he doesn't want an ending that pissed everyone off, and this ending will do that. 

For show watchers only?  This could be true for some or even a majority.  For book readers?  I think it will be fewer.

However HBO is launching a bunch of prequels or whatever, I do agree that people may not bother to watch those, and some may really cancel HBO altogether.  Initially at least.

[Stallion12]

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I wasn't arguing it would go over well.  But as I learned a long time ago, that's not a very good measure of what will actually end up onscreen.

And knowing this supposed endgame does make sense of why we're getting these repeated Tyrion/Bran interactions (even if said interactions don't actually function very well as leadup) at a time when many much more established character relationships have to make due with one scene.

My thing is, Martin said he doesn't want the pitch forks and doesn't want an ending hated like lost, bran being in charge, John rejoining the unneeded nights watch, Danny dieing, etc will be that kind of ending.  Any of those alone wouldn't spark an outrage, but all 3 will hurt the franchise. If the endgame was to have bran in charge, they should have built that up.

[Bianca Castafiore]

7 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

My thing is, Martin said he doesn't want the pitch forks and doesn't want an ending hated like lost, bran being in charge, John rejoining the unneeded nights watch, Danny dieing, etc will be that kind of ending.  Any of those alone wouldn't spark an outrage, but all 3 will hurt the franchise. If the endgame was to have bran in charge, they should have built that up.

Well, if Bran is gonna be King (and it's the same ending as the books), his direwolf's name, Summer, was the biggest clue and GRMM has been clearly trolling us for years now...

Edited May 11, 2019 by Bianca Castafiore

[nikma]

It won't hurt the franchise. You will see it yourselves 2 years from now when Long Night starts. You will all watch that. Don't pretend for a second you won't.

Everyone will watch the first episode, like it's GoT s9. The rest of the show depends on the quality.

[Stallion12]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, back when I thought there would be a throne at the end (when I started reading the books) I thought it would be Rickon.  The youngest, most unexpected Stark with a temper.  I moved on to thinking it might be Sansa because of her learning curve which seemed to be leading to that.

In the books, Bran is still becoming a tree really, which is the only reason I ruled him out.  His magic hasn't fully been explained, and it's certainly not been well explained in the show either.  Although from the show, he can see past, present, and future which would be damn valuable while being an overseer.

Looking back though, him having that first chapter should have been a huge clue.  I still don't think he will be KING, I think Westeros is moving on to more of a commonwealth system, eventually to move on to something more democratic/socialist.  We've already seen the North "proclaim" Jon King of the North, a kind of election.  We've seen the Wildlings for years elect their leaders and depose them with other elections.

Why?  Gendry would just be more of the same destructive "inheritance" Kings.  As poorly as the show is handling this?  I can see (I think) GRRM's intent here to move Westeros forward and away from that same old shit.

I agree, especially as the show expanded on Bran's journey, and when they killed off Rickon, for me, I suspected some kind of leading role for Bran.  I seriously hope it is overseer and not King.  He would be almost perfect really, his abilities beyond valuable as far as ending injustice, and being able to really see how the people of Westeros live, their needs, their desires...

Could be.  I love Bronn and I think his arc was beautifully summed up in that little speech he gave saying all of their "glorious ancestors and Lords" had once been like him.  Power was seized by the best murderers and conquerors, so get off you high horse...etc.  I adored that speech, but it seemed so many, at least here, just brushed past it, or dislike him so much that they didn't hear what I think is one of GRRM's MAJOR messages.

Also, showrunners have skipped that magic, so it's hard to understand Bran.  The only magic they seem to care about is sexy Red Priestesses and Dragons.  In the book, I'm sure it will be more fleshed out.

Ditto, in the book we will struggle along with all the people gathering step by step rather than using the TV teleporter.  I WISH there was a middle ground both could reach.  😉

Also, if KL is destroyed?  It may no longer BE the capital.  At least in the books. 

Maybe Highgarden becomes the new capital? 

I like Bronn, in his rough way, he has always kept his word.  He's fought for every single thing he has.  He was a "small folk" destined to be trampled by the Lords and Ladies and Kings and Queens, but he survived that and triumphed, and in the end got what he dreamed of.

He's also been brave, and forward thinking all along, fighting without heavy armor for example, and that wonderful speech was fairly well earned.

Bran also sees present and past, at least we know that much. 

I completely agree they aren't working through this though, probably because GRRM hasn't really fleshed it out yet in the books, since obviously, Bran will be the dark horse in the back of the pack for a while longer there.

Bran wouldn't be Jon's heir, but I would love it if Jon is crowned King and abdicates.  I also would like him to remove the celibacy part if he starts up a new Night's Watch.  Let them have wives and families, they can still guard.

Yeah, Bran will live a long time, and if I'm keeping my books stuff straight, when he does die, his gifts pass to a new 3ER, as they passed to him?  I honestly can't remember it all, it's been years since I read them.

I agree that they didn't build toward it in the show.

I think GRRM will do it in the books, and for me at least, "bittersweet" will describe that.  IF he ever finishes.

Already addressed the Bronn stuff above, I do think he is a much more important character than people think.  Yes, he was comic relief as well in the show, but his rise told a tale about the "nobles" that needed to be told.

God knows GRRM has no idea how to "rush" so I agree!

Information that is important to us, presumably might not be important to Bran, since he has an overview that is massive and that we don't see, and the show hasn't helped with that AT ALL.

An analogy might be looking at earth from outer space, and having the capability to zoom in on anything past/present/future, things important to a situation that effects mankind would be his focus, not the small shit.

So, Jon needed to know who he really is.  Littlefingers needed to be stopped and to face justice.  Ditto with warging, he had to warg in to Hodor a few times.

When Bran says he must survive, he's not talking about Bran, he's talking about the 3ER.

I will love it.  But I covered it all above, it's quite likely that the first Lord of Highgarten was just like Bronn.  Also, once Bronn's goal/dream is met?  He can settle down and relax, be kind, and we do know he can be fair, and be loyal, and true to his word.

For show watchers only?  This could be true for some or even a majority.  For book readers?  I think it will be fewer.

However HBO is launching a bunch of prequels or whatever, I do agree that people may not bother to watch those, and some may really cancel HBO altogether.  Initially at least.

Itll kill the prequels and the franchise, i could also see it hyrting book sales. Assuming no pitch forks. The outline leak is a terrible ending. Might work in the book version with everything built up and filled out. And bran book version might not be as hated, but like I said multiple times, the show hasn't given a buildup, it's fine in a whole different direction then sharp turned, then sharp turned again if the leaks are true.

[Stallion12]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

It won't hurt the franchise. You will see it yourselves 2 years from now when Long Night starts. You will all watch that. Don't pretend for a second you won't.

Everyone will watch the first episode, like it's GoT s9. The rest of the show depends on the quality.

Honestly I won't if the ending is as bad as the outline says. And I'm not even excited for that, since the night king turned out to be a joke.  Episode 3 hurt my interest in that. 

[nikma]

This franchise is too big to fall. If they have 20% of popularity that GoT had, it will still be the most popular HBO show right now.

HBO has nothing to lose. Even those who hated GoT S8 will watch it because of new writers and GRRM's involvement.

[Stallion12]

Actually it's not, if the ending is as bad as the outline says, the franchise will be known for its terrible ending, and the spinoffs won't hit off.  Martin being connected might not even help if they come at him with the pitch forks.  That outline will turn the fan base away.  

[nikma]

Just now, Stallion12 said:

Honestly I won't if the ending is as bad as the outline says. And I'm not even excited for that, since the night king turned out to be a joke.  Episode 3 hurt my interest in that. 

I don't believe this. One great trailer for S1, GRRM promoting the show and everyone will be back for E1.

Especially since a lot of people will watch GoT now after it ends. So they will be new audience for that show. There will be at lest 2 years until Long Night starts, so I expect millions of new fans will watch GoT in next 2 years. And especially if GRRM finally gives us TWOW.

But the long-term popularity of that show depends on Jane Goldman's writing.

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

Actually it's not, if the ending is as bad as the outline says, the franchise will be known for its terrible ending, and the spinoffs won't hit off.  Martin being connected might not even help if they come at him with the pitch forks.  That outline will turn the fan base away.  

Known where? Even if 70 % of watchers hate the ending(and that won't happen) and they all refuse to watch new show, they will have enough watchers for Long Night to be the most popular HBO show.

[Stallion12]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

Known where? Even if 70 % of watchers hate the ending(and that won't happen) and they all refuse to watch new show, they will have enough watchers for Long Night to be the most popular HBO show.

It'll spread like wildfire how bad the ending is if it's as bad as the outline.

And if just a small fraction of fans are needed for the spinoff to be the biggest show, is HBO doing that badly? Even a 50 percent cut would hurt any franchise. Your basicly saying that even a big cut would still be higher then anything else HBO has .

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

I don't believe this. One great trailer for S1, GRRM promoting the show and everyone will be back for E1.

Especially since a lot of people will watch GoT now after it ends. So they will be new audience for that show. There will be at lest 2 years until Long Night starts, so I expect millions of new fans will watch GoT in next 2 years. And especially if GRRM finally gives us TWOW.

But the long-term popularity of that show depends on Jane Goldman's writing.

I don't believe they will get into the show after the outrage if the ending is as bad as the outline.  Fandom grows when shows are good, not when they are terrible. A terrible ending won't bring in new fans. 

[Stallion12]

Of course, our while debate centers on the ending being bad, if it's not then at least the first spinoff should do well.

[SeanC]

27 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

My thing is, Martin said he doesn't want the pitch forks and doesn't want an ending hated like lost, bran being in charge, John rejoining the unneeded nights watch, Danny dieing, etc will be that kind of ending.  Any of those alone wouldn't spark an outrage, but all 3 will hurt the franchise. If the endgame was to have bran in charge, they should have built that up.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  I don't think many people think this ending is well-earned on the show, but that's different from questioning that it is the ending, or that the rudiments of it couldn't be made to work for an actual good ending.

[Stallion12]

Just now, SeanC said:

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  I don't think many people think this ending is well-earned on the show, but that's different from questioning that it is the ending, or that the rudiments of it couldn't be made to work for an actual good ending.

I'm arguing that the outline seems like a terrible ending that won't go over well. Unless the outline got important details wrong. Which is the feeling I'm getting.