S02.E18: The Good, the Bad and the Crispy

[CheshireCat]

11 hours ago, wilnil said:

My take on the "manipulation" issue is that it is Dad's plan but that, despite how Lucifer sees it, it's not manipulation as such (since both he and Chloe still have free will), more like God seeing future consequences -- basically, Lucifer and Chloe were made for each other (literally) with the idea that their interaction would eventually teach Lucifer what he still needs to understand about humanity and God's plan.

That sounds like Dad foresaw everything and/or steered Lucifer to the point he is at now and that every action Dad took was to get the response from Lucifer that he did. So, Dad knew what he would have to do to get Lucifer to earth. That doesn't sound like much of free will to me but like Dad really is the master manipulater.

 

About the color of the wings - as others have said, Lucifer's were always white. Interestingly enough, Amenadiel's weren't. They were a greyish color if I'm not mistaken.

[Lugal]

Lucifer's wings being white plays into the whole light-bringer aspect.

[Eneya]

30 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

That sounds like Dad foresaw everything and/or steered Lucifer to the point he is at now and that every action Dad took was to get the response from Lucifer that he did. So, Dad knew what he would have to do to get Lucifer to earth. That doesn't sound like much of free will to me but like Dad really is the master manipulater.

 

About the color of the wings - as others have said, Lucifer's were always white. Interestingly enough, Amenadiel's weren't. They were a greyish color if I'm not mistaken.

It is supposed to indicate rank, I think, also pure white wings are always a bit more boring.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Unless his wings were bleached by the sun, I don't understand why they would be white.

Why wouldn't they be white? They were originally white in season 1, in the episode where his wings were stolen from the container in which he'd been storing them. (And when he burned them on the beach at the end of that episode.) If they've come back or been restored by God or by some other means, I would believe they'd be the same color they were originally.

Edited to add: Or what Eneya said.  :)

Edited June 1, 2017 by sinkwriter

[Zipper]

20 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Now I have a question though - in one of the early episodes in S1 (the one with the paparazzi) Chloe is affected by Amenadiel's power. Why is she affected by Amenadiel's power but immune to Lucifer's? And why does she make Lucifer vulnerable and no one else (that we know of). If her immunity/effect on Lucifer has something to do with divinity, why does it seem to apply only to her and Lucifer's relationship?

I don't know the answer, so this is pure guess:  what if Dad's intent in blessing Chloe's mom via Amenadiel necessarily resulted in her Lucifer-centric immunity because Dad planned for Chloe to serve a role in Luci's time on earth?  I'm not saying that it was necessarily a romantic intent, but instead Dad wanted a person who Luci could not charm so that he couldn't use his tricks on her?  That limited purpose blessing would still leave her in subject to other acts of divinity.  

Whether that means Dad knew Luci would be on earth or foresaw the potential is up for grabs, maybe he was just hedging his bet that Luci's ultimate rebellion would allow him the chance to learn about humans in a way that would help him understand why we're Dad's favorite toys, but in order to do that he needs someone immune to his powers.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Zipper
Failed to read previous answers.

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, Zipper said:

I don't know the answer, so this is pure guess:  what if Dad's intent in blessing Chloe's mom via Amenadiel necessarily resulted in her Lucifer-centric immunity because Dad planned for Chloe to serve a role in Luci's time on earth?  I'm not saying that it was necessarily a romantic intent, but instead Dad wanted a person who Luci could not charm so that he couldn't use his tricks on her?  That limited purpose blessing would still leave her in subject to other acts of divinity.  

Whether that means Dad knew Luci would be on earth or foresaw the potential is up for grabs, maybe he was just hedging his bet that Luci's ultimate rebellion would allow him the chance to learn about humans in a way that would help him understand why we're Dad's favorite toys, but in order to do that he needs someone immune to his powers.

Chloe being immune to only Lucifer after Amenadiel blessed her mother because Lucifer might end up on earth sounds a bit contrived doesn't it? I'm not saying that this isn't going to be the answer, just that I hope it's not because it's a bit "huh?". I'm actually hoping for something simpler and more innocent. (It's actually one of those things that I wonder if it's deliberate or just happened. I didn't realize that Chloe was immune only to Lucifer up until now. We also don't know when they decided why Chloe was immune and if the blessing part is even the answer, so it could be that Chloe not being immune to Amenadiel happened during writing because they needed her to not be immune but didn't think about the significance/that it contradicted her immunity to Lucifer.) I guess we'll find out. :-)

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 9:20 PM, CheshireCat said:

Now I have a question though - in one of the early episodes in S1 (the one with the paparazzi) Chloe is affected by Amenadiel's power. Why is she affected by Amenadiel's power but immune to Lucifer's? And why does she make Lucifer vulnerable and no one else (that we know of). If her immunity/effect on Lucifer has something to do with divinity, why does it seem to apply only to her and Lucifer's relationship?

This comes from reading one to many paranormal romance novels.

Usually true loves are immune to each others powers or made vulnerable to their mate to level the playing field and make them equal partners in the relationship,

I've been assuming its that. 

[Delphi]

I don't think she always made Lucifer vulnerable, while she was always immune to his charms.   I don't think Lucifer became vulnerable around her until he started to actually care about her. 

[Zipper]

16 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Chloe being immune to only Lucifer after Amenadiel blessed her mother because Lucifer might end up on earth sounds a bit contrived doesn't it? I'm not saying that this isn't going to be the answer, just that I hope it's not because it's a bit "huh?". 

Yes, it does feel a bit precious, but I don't think it was an accident or an oversight because this isn't the first time Chloe was shown to be affected by the time-slow.  In the episode with the paparazzi guys and the car accident where Maze/Luci gave the paps guns to "right" the wrong had Chloe in the the time-slow scene, and she knew something weird happened because Luci or Maze had moved.  I've come to trust this team quite a bit (not totally, FOX), and it would bum me out if there isn't some reasonable answer.  If we are to believe Luci, this kind of contrivance is just what we can expect from Dad.  

[Mabinogia]

5 minutes ago, Zipper said:

it would bum me out if there isn't some reasonable answer.

I will accept any reason other than "because he loves her". That will make me hurl something at my TV. It's too close to "love makes you weak" for my taste. He should be stronger around the person he loves, not vulnerable and weak. Love should make you invincible. I assume it's just because Dad had Chloe made specifically for Lucifer for some reason. But honestly, I'd prefer "we (the writers) didn't think you'd notice" over love making Lucy vulnerable.

[Tarasme]

On 5/29/2017 at 10:09 PM, enoughcats said:

The botanist in me says he's somewhere in the Sonoran Desert, east of Palm Springs.  The cactus are widely scattered Joshua Tree or something with a similar form.  OK, that's a geeky answer.

Philosophically, I'll leave it to religious scholars to choose which trip into the desert this might remind them of most closely.

First thoughts...

In his X# of days in the desert... Is he... him? Or the Other Guy?

If he were there with a couple thousand other people, I'd probably go to Charleton Heston, Mt. Sinai and stone tablets.

[theatremouse]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I will accept any reason other than "because he loves her". 

My impression of the time-slow thing (from the first episode when it happened) has been that he literally does it to the whole world (and therefore doesn't touch those not from that world, ie if you're from heaven or hell, you can move around). On the flipside, Lucifer's mojo what do you want business has always been something he does to one person at a time. So in that sense, it never felt like a contradiction to me that Chloe's reason for being immune to Lucifer's didn't also make her immune to the time-slow. Because I think the reason given for the immunity was "touched by the divine" or something to that effect, but she's still a human, not a celestial. It's sort of splitting hairs but it was good enough for me. I think of it sort of like...one human might be immune to a certain virus while other humans are not. Meanwhile, some whole species are immune to others. So it's kind of analogous to Chloe having a particular gene that makes her immune to Lucifer's thing, but for Amenadiel's thing, the only species it doesn't touch are other-worldly. Her "divine touch" isn't enough to block that.

Or something like that. I'm not sure it completely holds water, but for a show that's pretty sci-fi anyway, it's close enough to internal logic that I'm ok with it.

[johntfs]

Of course one other thing to consider is that if Lucifer has wings again, he might also have full angelic power (along with full angelic restrictions(ie no killing humans)).  So, the carnal fascination might not affect Chloe but the "What do you want?" might.

[CaptainTightpants]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I will accept any reason other than "because he loves her".

Luci started being physically vulnerable while in proximity to Chloe almost from the beginning. Back when he was attracted to her and enjoyed being her partner, but way before he actually had a chance to fall in love with her (In my opinion obvs because no way was it was love at first sight as that is bullshit too!). I've always assumed that his loss of invulnerability was all part of the grand plan of Dad. Which will hopefully be given some sort of reasonable explanation at some point. I'm happy to have it left a mystery however rather than have some sort of stupid explanation that would make me want to throw things at the TV!

[johntfs]

He was invulnerable during the pilot episode.  At the end he used his body to shield Chloe from the killer's bullets.  I think that blatantly unselfish act was somehow the trigger to his vulnerability around her.

[Robin the Hoodie]

Hello. I don't post often but loved this episode so much. I, too want to know why Luci is sunburnt without Chloe there. 

Perhaps he became vulnerable around her as payment for Dad saving her life. He did beg his Father to save her. Perhaps that was the price.

I also think that she was made immune to his powers because with Chloe he can't just reach out and take her rather he has to earn her regard. To do that he has to become a better man to be worthy of her. It doesn't bother me that she is not immune to anyone else power. We are taking about God so he can split all the hairs he wants.

[Lugal]

Sometimes I wonder if his vulnerability is not Lucifer's thing, but Chloe's.  Her beliefs shape the world around her.  She doesn't believe he's the devil, so therefore he's vulnerable around her.  And if she were immune to Amenadiel's time stop she would see the world freeze up a lot around her whenever Amenadiel stopped time, which would throw her worldview out of whack.  Although I seem to remember when Amenadiel first started to lose his powers it was in the police station.  And when he got them back in Dr. Linda's office, Chloe was far away.

Chloe was not attracted to Lucifer so therefore his lust powers don't work on her.  She didn't buy his "What do you desire?" power so that didn't work either (and Dad may have figured that she could not work with Lucifer knowing he could influence Chloe so easily).  Lucifer was invulnerable when she was shot and delirious and didn't see what was happening.  And she saw him throw a guy through a glass wall, which would not be impossible for a human being (although unlikely).  But when Lucifer told her to shoot him, she did not believe he was invulnerable and therefore he wasn't.

It will interesting to see after she's told he really is the devil and she believes it if he's still vulnerable round her.

[Greenleaf]

Loved the whole episode.  Am thinking it was Maze who clobbered Lucifer, then took him out to the desert and left him there.  Two reasons for this thought, they show her in the background when L visits Linda in the hospital and she is glaring through the glass at him.  Also, there's no interaction between them the whole episode.  She's still angry at him, furious, outraged - and when she sees Linda after Charlotte's attack I'm thinking she blames Lucifer.  As he was walking to his car while talking to Chloe, Maze could easily have hidden there and maybe hearing him tell Chloe he's on the way over to "tell you everything" just sent Maze over the edge (like, oh no you don't, you're not going to hurt Chloe too).  She would be able to hurt him.  I'm guessing even one day in that scorching heat would be enough to burn even him........and I'm thinking that getting his wings back is the only way he could save himself from scorching to death in the desert.  Remember, when "God" Johnson touched Lucifer's back.........he had healing powers and perhaps that is when "the touch" started working on Lucifer.  After all, whether Mr. Johnson was actually "god" or not, "God" would know about all the healing he did and would also obviously be watching what happens to his sons........so "He" could've given the wings back to say "thank you for a job well done" (the mum fix).  The more I think about it, the more I think Maze is the one who hit him, because she was already there at the hospital (had the motive and the opportunity, as a cop would say).

[jhlipton]

Such an awesome season finale for an awesome show!

On 5/29/2017 at 11:16 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Really, the entire ensemble is on fire now.

Just like Chet and Ava (too soon?)

On 5/30/2017 at 1:02 PM, Rosiejuliemom said:

I'm a little bummed that he didn't keep the buckle, too. I'd like to see God Johnson again.

I love Timothy Omundson and think he did a fantastic job, but Mr Johnson has just woke up in a mental hospital with all of his money gone.  And now you want him to start saying he's God again?  I hope not.

On 5/30/2017 at 4:50 PM, Delphi said:

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/lucifer/lucifer-interview-where-is-lucifer-64885.aspx

 

There you go. 

Any spoilers or speculation on Season 3 should go in the appropriate thread.

On 5/30/2017 at 6:54 PM, johntfs said:

One thing to recall is that there were originally nine episodes for the back "half" of Season 2 and that 4 of them were moved to next season.  It's possible that the episode dealing directly with Linda getting her license back was one of the moved episodes - especially if it and the other 3 had little or nothing to do with "Mom." 

It almost works better if it's not explained.  We see Maze going into the guy's office.  We know Maze gets shit done.  We see Linda back in her office.  We assume that Maze got shit done.

Works for me!

On 6/1/2017 at 4:03 AM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

No way in Hades that Lucifer would casually toss away the sword.  If for no other reason than making Dad damn sure it would not fall into the wrong hands, he would never let that sucker go before securing it in some super duper fashion. 

With the Blade and the Buckle in one Kingdom and the Key in another, I'd say he secured it a super duper party-pooper fashion!

[jhlipton]

One of the best lines of the episode (and one that seems to collaborate the "Chloe's worldview" theory): Lucifer said that his dad said something, Chloe asked "Did he really say that?" and Lucifer said "Not in Sumerian words".  But Chloe heard "Not in so many words", because what he actually said didn't fit  her world-view.

[johntfs]

Since Lesley-AnnBrandt is pregnant, will they work it into next season?  I'm just wondering if this whole show is going to turn into an extended prequel to Preacher.

[Lugal]

Can't remember if Leslie-Ann Brandt or one of the producers said it, but I seem to recall hearing that they will not because a pregnant sex demon just doesn't work.

[methodwriter85]

On 5/30/2017 at 7:28 AM, Arnella said:

I just want to say how great the writing is in this show.  I was a fan of Sleepy Hollow at the start.  There are similarities: tall charismatic Brit with beautiful law enforcement partner in a supernatural based show.  I bailed after they got rid of Abby; it was as if the writers only had one season's worth of story in them.

This show handles all the characters' stories so well!  Within all the chaos, the relationships are building and yet stay true to character and story arc - just greatness all around.

As confusing as the ending was, it was also brilliant and will generate all sorts of speculation like a cliffhanger should!

I only commit to a handful of shows; I'm so glad this is one of them.

This show has been really good at building all of the characters this season. I'm honestly impressed. It's not just about the two or three main characters.

Here's hoping the show's 3rd season goes down well!

Edited June 5, 2017 by methodwriter85

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Is it _______________ (whenever the S3 premiere date is) yet?

What a finale.  This show is, and always has been, amazeballs.

"Duct tape.  Its amazing.  Trust me."

Why do I get the feeling 'Mum' tricked everyone, and that's still her faking being Charlotte?  Not only was CR dead when 'Mum' took over, but was also stabbed and whatnot since... how is CR alive again??  Didn't they say that if not fixed (however that would have been) that 'Mum' would have burned through CR's body because she was becoming so strong???  How is CR still alive and kicking after all that?!?!  I'm quite suspicious.

Stabbing Linda and leaving her to die.  That's unforgivable.

Did 'Mum'-as-CR knock Luci upside the head and give him his wings back - while stranding him wherever - or was it Amenadude?  Dad??

One teeny-tiny nitpick, but one does wonder just how long they are going to try and drag out the "when will Chloe find out?!" not-really-drama.  Couldn't stop that bit of eye-roll when he promises to come confess everything [kinda like he's been doing since the start, without the visual aids] and yet is (somewhat predictably) forcefully delayed.  Please don't drag this out so long it becomes a big detracting point, TPTB.

[Jacks-Son]

@iRarelyWatchTV36, I didn't get the impression that 'Mum' was faking still being CR, although the Show Runner might have indicated that TH may be back next season. However, there's no assurance the actor will be playing 'Mum' or the real CR.

For those of you who are curious as to what might transpire in S3, NerdGasm uploaded a YouTube video with some informed guessing. You can try checking that out there.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[Rosiejuliemom]

On 6/3/2017 at 6:04 PM, jhlipton said:

I love Timothy Omundson and think he did a fantastic job, but Mr Johnson has just woke up in a mental hospital with all of his money gone.  And now you want him to start saying he's God again?  I hope not.

Fair enough. Maybe they could get Omundson back if Dad ever comes to earth.

[johntfs]

21 minutes ago, Rosiejuliemom said:

Fair enough. Maybe they could get Omundson back if Dad ever comes to earth.

Oh, Dad, I kind of hope that doesn't happen.  I like Omundson and always have.  I thought he was great in that role and I'd be happy for him to come back as Earl Johnson, down-on-his-luck former oilman/mental patient.

That said, I want "God Johnson" to be as close as this show ever gets to God.

[enoughcats]

I love the title of this episode.  Every time I see it, I smile.  

This title has more going for it that 90% of the programming dreck that's on this summer.

[wilnil]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 1:32 AM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Why do I get the feeling 'Mum' tricked everyone, and that's still her faking being Charlotte?  Not only was CR dead when 'Mum' took over, but was also stabbed and whatnot since... how is CR alive again??  Didn't they say that if not fixed (however that would have been) that 'Mum' would have burned through CR's body because she was becoming so strong???  How is CR still alive and kicking after all that?!?!  I'm quite suspicious.

After rewatching:

We'll hopefully know more next season, but my guess for now is that Mom passed a little miracle on her way to her new Creation -- plucked Charlotte's soul out of Hell and put it back in her body, then healed the body (all of which she'd probably have had the power to do when in her "natural" form and not bound into a body). Her reasoning might have been that Lucifer being found standing over Charlotte's dead body might put him in trouble (though he was clearly ready to start tap-dancing around that problem right before she woke up as Charlotte).

[NutMeg]

22 hours ago, enoughcats said:

I love the title of this episode.  Every time I see it, I smile.  

This title has more going for it that 90% of the programming dreck that's on this summer.

You know, I was thinking the exact same thing while waiting for the thread to load. I smile each time, and then a fraction of a second later I remember the quote it came from, and I smile even bigger.

[CheshireCat]

On ‎02‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 11:55 AM, Zipper said:

 I've come to trust this team quite a bit (not totally, FOX), and it would bum me out if there isn't some reasonable answer.  If we are to believe Luci, this kind of contrivance is just what we can expect from Dad.  

Then you are more trusting than I am ;-) Although, this wouldn't be something that I would fault them for as I think that it's something that can easily be overlooked/that can just happen and then you look at it and go, oops, we need an explanation.

 

On ‎02‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 11:36 AM, Delphi said:

I don't think she always made Lucifer vulnerable, while she was always immune to his charms.   I don't think Lucifer became vulnerable around her until he started to actually care about her. 

Wouldn't that mean that Maze is vulnerable around Chloe, too, since she also cares about Chloe?

 

About Chloe and her arm holding her coat - I think someone else mentioned that it looked like she was injured and I would agree. The way she held the arm is usually consistent with an injury, also, she didn't hold the coat closed with her hand. In fact, she didn't do much with the hand at all, and she didn't do much with the arm either.

 

Loved the finale as a whole. So many good scenes, so much great acting and line-delivery!

Not sure how I feel about Mom being gone, actually. On the one hand, I think there were too many characters and some stories seemed to have been put on the back-burner (Like Chloe's and Lucifer's relationship. Not that I minded but it feels like Chloe got over that one quickly. Or Maze and Lucifer's relationship or Maze and Amenadiel), on the other hand, I did like having her around. I'm also not sure if I like how they ended the arc, somehow it seemed too simple and too "she needs to get her happy ending". While I don't necessarily need to get another time-consuming arc on her, I wouldn't mind this wasn't the last we saw of her.

I found Amenadiel and his "favorite son" obsession a bit obnoxious but that is probably because I don't like that there even if a favorite son. Should God, of all "people" lead with an example and absolutely not have a favorite child? I know that they didn't just drop this on us but I was thinking that maybe it's just the children's perception, that Lucifer was the favorite and that it'll turn out that there is no favorite. I guess, it's still possible. The children could all be under the assumption that Lucifer was the favorite and the writer of the book could be under the assumption that Amenadiel is the favorite.

It did sound like Amenadiel was letting it get to his head though.

Another thing that threw me is that Uriel said to Lucifer the "peace/piece is here". If we're assuming that it was piece and had to do with the sword, which piece would that have been?

A thing that I found interesting is that Lucifer and Amenadiel sort of had to work together to light the sword and that they kind of compliment each other in many ways - Lucifer speaks the languages, Amenadiel can read them (whether he can read all of them we don't know but, apparently, he can read quite a lot), Amenadiel is the loyal soldier, Lucifer is the rebel, Lucifer is stylish in appearance, Amenadiel is more... well, less polished, even though he is the soldier, Amenadiel seems to be calmer, while Lucifer seems to be more emotional and temperamental. And Amenadiel had the final piece and Lucifer is the one who can light the dagger.

As far as Lucifer waking up in the desert is concerned - were those supposed to be new injuries or old one? He still had a scratch on the cheek that he had throughout the episode, so since that one hadn't healed, maybe the other injuries hadn't either? His skin didn't look like it was burned though, it wasn't flaming red. And the injuries on his shoulder looked like some desert animals might have had a taste of him. I guess, what kind of injuries they are depends on where he is supposed to be.

Something odd that I noticed was that when they were at the pier and Amenadiel started to slow down time, it looked like his wings made an appearance at the upper left corner of the screen. But maybe those were just birds caught in the slow-mo?

And if we believe that Amenadiel losing his powers was because he lost faith (which I can totally get behind), maybe Lucifer got his wings back by igniting the sword because he sort of "remembered" who he truly was in doing so?

Edited June 16, 2017 by CheshireCat

[Delphi]

Maze is vulnerable to begin with,  she has high durability for sure but she can be hurt. 

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, Delphi said:

Maze is vulnerable to begin with,  she has high durability for sure but she can be hurt. 

Was that established? If so, I missed that.

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I'm also not sure if I like how they ended the arc, somehow it seemed too simple and too "she needs to get her happy ending". While I don't necessarily need to get another time-consuming arc on her, I wouldn't mind this wasn't the last we saw of her.

 

Another thing that threw me is that Uriel said to Lucifer the "peace/piece is here". If we're assuming that it was piece and had to do with the sword, which piece would that have been?

"Mom" didn't get a "happy" ending -- she got a "less bad for all concerned"  ending.  She's pretty much back at Square One in creation, and it's all on her how it goes -- no blaming Dad for her mistakes.

Uriel may have meant the buckle, but considering how much time he spent around Amendude, I think he meant the key.

[Jamoche]

On 5/29/2017 at 8:38 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

He created a portal into another world. 

I thought the real Charlotte had been murdered before "Mom" reanimated her. I assumed she would go back to being a dead body.

Hmm... what if Mom picked up a hitchhiker on her trip to Hell?

[Arthur]

Just rewatched and noticed  something I missed before: When Luci goes to Chloe's apartment and Maze and Trixie are there (doing their medic thing), when Trixie puts a gauze patch on Luci's forehead he flinches. Does this mean he is vulnerable around Trixie too? Is he getting 'Not immortal" in general (he doesn't seem to be healing very well)?

[rainsmom]

1 hour ago, Arthur said:

Just rewatched and noticed  something I missed before: When Luci goes to Chloe's apartment and Maze and Trixie are there (doing their medic thing), when Trixie puts a gauze patch on Luci's forehead he flinches. Does this mean he is vulnerable around Trixie too? Is he getting 'Not immortal" in general (he doesn't seem to be healing very well)?

No, he has always flinched away from Trixie. I don't think she hurts him -- I think he regards her the way someone who doesn't like dogs might regard someone's poodle. She's fine over there, particularly when not paying attention to him, but he doesn't particularly want to pet her (or be petted by her).

[Jacks-Son]

1 hour ago, rainsmom said:

No, he has always flinched away from Trixie. I don't think she hurts him -- I think he regards her the way someone who doesn't like dogs might regard someone's poodle. She's fine over there, particularly when not paying attention to him, but he doesn't particularly want to pet her (or be petted by her).

Well, when he first met Beatrice (Trixie), he didn't seem to mind her, I think he just doesn't know how to act around her. Luci is used to women fawning over him. Trixie, I think, confuses him. She obviously likes Luci and Maze, and Maze will kill anyone who hurts Trixie and even (shudder to think) Chloe.  That's the thing about Maze that I find so funny. She used to show disdain for Luci and how he seems to care for these Humans that populate Earth. Now SHE'S the one who is very protective around HER Humans. Man, I miss this show

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Arthur said:

Just rewatched and noticed  something I missed before: When Luci goes to Chloe's apartment and Maze and Trixie are there (doing their medic thing), when Trixie puts a gauze patch on Luci's forehead he flinches. Does this mean he is vulnerable around Trixie too? Is he getting 'Not immortal" in general (he doesn't seem to be healing very well)?

Lucifer is vulnerable to stuff not of this earth.  Maze is not of this earth.  She and Lucifer beat the holy living fuck out of each other in the previous episode and hadn't fully recovered yet.

[Delphi]

On 6/16/2017 at 3:53 PM, CheshireCat said:

Was that established? If so, I missed that.

I don't know if it was firmly established,  per say.   However Mom was able to knock her unconscious.   She couldn't beat Amen in a fight in the first season.   She was definitely injured during her and Lucifer's brawl.  And there was the general worry that if she is killed she will just cease to exist due to her lack of a soul.   So it stands to reason because she is not of heavenly design she can be injured. 

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, Delphi said:

I don't know if it was firmly established,  per say.   However Mom was able to knock her unconscious.   She couldn't beat Amen in a fight in the first season.   She was definitely injured during her and Lucifer's brawl.  And there was the general worry that if she is killed she will just cease to exist due to her lack of a soul.   So it stands to reason because she is not of heavenly design she can be injured. 

Yes, but of all those situations occurred in terms of Maze in physical conflict with otherworldly beings.  We don't know what would happen if she got shot, stabbed or just punched really hard by a regular mortal with mortal weapons.

Malcolm was able to almost kill Amenadiel because he stabbed him with one of Maze's "forged in Hell" knives.  Lucifer and Amenadiel brawled in Season One and hurt each other.  Until we see Maze take (or not take) injury from a mortal source we really don't know about her invulnerability.

Edited June 25, 2017 by johntfs

[Emma9]

I've wondered the same thing about Maze; have we never seen her injured in an altercation with mortals because they can't hurt her, or is she just so badass they never get the opening? Would lean towards the latter, though, mainly because of this:

Quote

And there was the general worry that if she is killed she will just cease to exist due to her lack of a soul.   So it stands to reason because she is not of heavenly design she can be injured.

In addition to that being an enormously heavy topic in and of itself that should have gotten more attention (although I loved Dr. Linda's line at the time about how they were going to discuss that in a therapy session ASAP), if Maze weren't vulnerable to being shocked by the paddles or any other 'normal' means of killing someone, the lack of soul wouldn't have even been an issue.

(Seriously, though, that should have been a bigger deal. After the whole issue of Azrael's blade being uniquely horrible because it had the power to wipe someone entirely from the fabric of reality, then we find out Maze is living with the awareness that any death would be that kind of death for her?)

Edited June 27, 2017 by Emma9

[Bruinsfan]

On 5/30/2017 at 8:59 PM, sinkwriter said:

That really does baffle me. Charlotte was murdered. As others have said in this thread, she should be dead now that Mum has vacated her body. She was stabbed to death; that's how the Goddess was able to jump into and borrow her body. Exiting it should have left Charlotte as a corpse (and possibly one that seems inexplicably "dead for months and months" - for however long Charlotte had been in her). I understand them wanting to keep Tricia, but that's the one thing in this episode that made me shake my head and say, "That doesn't track." Are we supposed to believe God saved her?

 

On 6/18/2017 at 5:24 PM, Jamoche said:

Hmm... what if Mom picked up a hitchhiker on her trip to Hell?

This was my thinking as well. I realize they had to have Tricia Helfer play Mom in her scenes in Hell because having a glowing special effect represent the character instead would have kneecapped the drama of the scene, but within the setting there wasn't any real reason she would have appeared as Charlotte once freed of her earthly vessel. Maybe possessing Charlotte's body formed enough of a connection that when she appeared in Hell the soul was likewise merged with her and came back when she was resuscitated.

[wilnil]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

 

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 6:24 PM, Jamoche said:

Hmm... what if Mom picked up a hitchhiker on her trip to Hell?

This was my thinking as well. I realize they had to have Tricia Helfer play Mom in her scenes in Hell because having a glowing special effect represent the character instead would have kneecapped the drama of the scene, but within the setting there wasn't any real reason she would have appeared as Charlotte once freed of her earthly vessel. Maybe possessing Charlotte's body formed enough of a connection that when she appeared in Hell the soul was likewise merged with her and came back when she was resuscitated.

Interesting idea. I've been rewatching the earlier episodes of the season on demand, and what struck me was how bad Mom was at "being" Charlotte in the beginning. In the later episodes, she's not only comfortable with handling Charlotte's legal career (not just the actual practice of law, which we're told she learned by speed-reading case law before trial, but handling her scummy client list), but she knows things like who to call for discreet corpse disposal. Having the real Charlotte's soul along for the ride for those episodes would explain how Mom got so good at being an ethically challenged, high-powered attorney.

Edited June 29, 2017 by wilnil

[ganesh]

I'm watching this play out over the weekend on netflix. (I finally got around to the show). I was surprised with the ending. Not that Luci didn't want to storm heaven, but giving the mother a fresh start to create her own world. For someone whose job is punishment, it was a magnanimous act. I think the plot played out just long enough. Not that I don't love TH, but it was time to wrap it up. 

I also find it amusing that the magical sword needs a key to turn it out and you can just take it out when you're done. 

[Peace 47]

On 5/27/2019 at 8:49 PM, ganesh said:

Not that Luci didn't want to storm heaven, but giving the mother a fresh start to create her own world. For someone whose job is punishment, it was a magnanimous act.

It really was.  I liked how there was no apparent solution to the problem (she couldn’t stay, couldn’t go to heaven, and returning her to hell was going to be torture for her), and then the hero comes up with the third solution that is the best for everyone, except that the personal cost is that he can never ever see her again.

I think the last 25 minutes of this episode are really top notch.  Tom Ellis’s acting was fantastic.  The way he quietly pleaded with Amenadiel to give him the missing key to the sword because Mom was holding Chloe hostage was heartbreaking.  (Also liked how Chloe had no idea that she was a hostage.)  His shaking voice as he said, “You’ve hurt so many people, Mum” and “Let there be light” really got to me.  I actually teared up.

The music was really used to great effect here, as well.  The last two songs (“Start a Riot” and that “The World is Unraveling” song) really matched the mood well, I thought.

[ganesh]

Upon reflection, it seemed liked the writers painted themselves into a corner, but there was actually a window there. I thought the ending was fine because when Lucifer actually cut reality and said, "oh, huh" I felt like that if it didn't work, he would have killed her.

[galaxychaser]

Stellar episode/finale! Luci with wings at the end looked phenomenal. 
why can’t all man look like Tom???

Did not like that Luci got rid of the sword. Linda and Ella could leave the show. 
Charlotte should have died no? She got injured by the knife and super powers.