Nate And Jeremiah By Design - General Discussion

[Snickerdoodle]

I thought the wife Lon last night’s episode looked like Beverly Goldberg. 

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Snickerdoodle said:

I thought the wife Lon last night’s episode looked like Beverly Goldberg. 

My boyfriend thought the same thing, I thought Sharona from Monk.

[meep.meep]

I can see why they wanted the floor matching throughout the house.  I couldn't see why they wanted a huge island heading out towards their huge dining room table.  Weren't the chairs the ones they had around the table?  And they took out an authentic mid-century modern table and chairs in the breakfast nook and replaced them with that huge blue sofa?  Nobody wants a bunch of upholstery in their kitchen, it's just going to get greasy.

Why can't terrazo tiles be 3D printed?

[auntjess]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I've never heard of terrazzo flooring before and it's all they talked about in this last episode.

It's used a lot in Florida, and I see it taken up in a lot of Florida flip shows, Zombie House Flippers, Miami Flip, and Scott McGillivray's Buyer's Bootcamp, when he does Florida episodes.
Didn't know it was expensive especially.  I do like how it looks.

[biakbiak]

19 minutes ago, auntjess said:

It's used a lot in Florida, and I see it taken up in a lot of Florida flip shows, Zombie House Flippers, Miami Flip, and Scott McGillivray's Buyer's Bootcamp, when he does Florida episodes.
Didn't know it was expensive especially.  I do like how it looks.

Yeah it's one of the most expensive options out there which is why I always see red when I hear people talk about ripping it out. Plus, there was the additional factor that they had to match the original. No other option would have looked good given the design of the kitchen so I have to imagine "finding" the extra $20k was just for the show.

[iMonrey]

I really didn't like the yellow stove. I guess the home owners thought it was fun but I really cringed when they unloaded it and installed it. Otherwise I thought the kitchen was beautiful, although I agree the blue sofa was weird but that was an odd space they don't really need for seating. They have chairs at the big new island as well as a big dining table. Does it make sense to also have a small breakfast nook? I think they're more likely to use the island seating for coffee, etc.

[biakbiak]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Does it make sense to also have a small breakfast nook? I think they're more likely to use the island seating for coffee, etc.

Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if tgat became more a place for the kids to do homework rather than a dining space. I did reaaly like the settee.

[auntjess]

16 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Yeah it's one of the most expensive options out there which is why I always see red when I hear people talk about ripping it out.

On a lot of the shows though, they're tearing down walls, and reconfiguring the space, so they'd have to match it.

[suebee12]

On 5/20/2018 at 11:22 AM, iMonrey said:

I've never heard of terrazzo flooring before and it's all they talked about in this last episode.

Yes, this is/was used a lot in Florida houses...it is cool, fairly easy to clean and almost indestructible. You may have never heard the term  but I bet you have been on terrazzo floors before though! It was used in many Sears stores in their main aisles. The different departments were carpeted but the areas that had heavy traffic along with the basement areas were terrazzo...at least the one I worked in in Richmond, VA. Worked there during college because it was so close to my college and they hired many, many college students. One thing I will say about terrazzo is that it is hard on the feet if you have to be on it for long stretches of time. Push come to shove, I think they could have made polished concrete look good too if they matched the color carefully.

I, too, didn't like the stove but that is because it didn't match the other appliances so it stuck out like a sore thumb as did the blue velvet settee. Not my cup of tea but if the homeowners liked it, so be it, since it was their kitchen!

[mlp]

Quote

One thing I will say about terrazzo is that it is hard on the feet if you have to be on it for long stretches of time.

In the 90s, I worked at a hospital that had been built in the 60s and had terrazzo floors throughout.  It still looked nice and was easy to clean but it was definitely hard on the feet and legs.  It was also rather slippery.  I gave up wearing heels with my business clothes because I always felt like I was going to fall.  I can't really imagine wanting terrazzo in a house, especially in a kitchen.  Or cement either for that matter.  

I was surprised when they said they'd chosen an old-fashioned, unattractive (IMO) name for the baby and even more surprised when they said it was the name of Nate's old partner who died.  Jeremiah was obviously OK with it but it seemed odd to me to choose a name that would be a constant reminder of a previous partner and a tragedy.  I suppose the name will come to mean the child in short order.

I know they've been telling Poppy about the baby but she isn't old enough to comprehend all that.  I wonder how she reacted when they brought home a live baby brother.

[irisheyes]

18 hours ago, mlp said:

 

I was surprised when they said they'd chosen an old-fashioned, unattractive (IMO) name for the baby and even more surprised when they said it was the name of Nate's old partner who died.  Jeremiah was obviously OK with it but it seemed odd to me to choose a name that would be a constant reminder of a previous partner and a tragedy.  I suppose the name will come to mean the child in short order.

I know they've been telling Poppy about the baby but she isn't old enough to comprehend all that.  I wonder how she reacted when they brought home a live baby brother.

Poppy probably reacted like every other toddler when parents bring home a younger sibling.  Excitement, boredom, frustration cause she’s not the center of attention. Except for a growing belly, they’ve prepared her like every other parent does. 

[tobeannounced]

This thread needs a name change - Nate, Jeremiah, Poppy & Oskar!

[Mint Julep]

Many homes in the New Orleans area that were built in the 60’s have terrazzo floors. They’re beautiful, durable and easy to maintain.  The terrazzo floors in my childhood home survived Katrina’s floodwaters and were easy to restore. Quite an accomplishment considering the house was under 10 feet of water for over a week.

[Irlandesa]

On 5/15/2018 at 8:17 AM, iMonrey said:

I also thought $100K was excessive for that space, but you have to figure they got to that number because everything they used was from some high-end designer showroom. Nothing in there was from Ikea or Nebraska Furniture Mart.

If it's from a high-use space so anything from Ikea would be worn out pretty quickly and need to be replaced.  I've done some furniture shopping for a common area and even the most basic stuff can be kind of expensive. 

I probably wouldn't have selected yellow for the stove but I liked that retro aesthetic.  It beats white or black or stainless silver.

[Tosia]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:17 AM, iMonrey said:

I also thought $100K was excessive for that space, but you have to figure they got to that number because everything they used was from some high-end designer showroom. Nothing in there was from Ikea or Nebraska Furniture Mart. When one of the workers said someone had generously donated $25K and N&J said they'd need far and above that I really cringed a little bit. For one thing I'm sure money is very precious at a shelter like that and maybe they wanted to use at least part of that donation for something else than design. For another thing the fact that N&J don't even bat an eye at the thought of throwing that kind of money at a redesign shows how out of touch they are with the real world. It's one thing when they're going into some millionaire's house to update his mansion but when they're throwing money at $3000 sofas and chairs for a homeless shelter it doesn't feel like something that's anywhere near their wheelhouse. 

Ha! Nebraska Furniture Mart!  Mrs. B for Blumkin!  I got my first married bedroom set from there!  My parents shopped at the original store downtown. As kids we ran all over that place and played hide and seek on all 4 floors.  Good times.

Back to Nate and J.  Oskie is adorable. Poppy  was sweet with him.  Jeremiah was funny about the "feminine energy of Poppy besides his. "  

The couple with the 3 daughters last night who "needed" a kitchen redo?  I think the long narrow lines created by the extra long island would be just as much a problem as trying to walk down a subway or crowded bus aisle.   They should have put in two islands side by side with a space  break in the middle so people could get to the sink or stove and then move back away for others to go by. It will take coordination to work that way.  The banquet was unnecessary but decorative. I would have like a little more pop of color --just a bit-- to break up the white and beige.  

[iMonrey]

I know this isn't a charity show but usually the couple is in more dire straits than this last couple. Their home was already quite nice if a tad outdated and they had $100 grand to spend on it. Sheesh. Not exactly in desperate need of help which is usually the gimmick of this show.

I didn't care for the alcove with the seating right in the middle of the kitchen. I know they showed one of the daughters sitting there but I can't imagine anyone is going to sit there on a regular basis. So odd. 

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, Tosia said:

Ha! Nebraska Furniture Mart!  Mrs. B for Blumkin!  I got my first married bedroom set from there!  My parents shopped at the original store downtown. As kids we ran all over that place and played hide and seek on all 4 floors.  Good times.

Back to Nate and J.  Oskie is adorable. Poppy  was sweet with him.  Jeremiah was funny about the "feminine energy of Poppy besides his. "  

The couple with the 3 daughters last night who "needed" a kitchen redo?  I think the long narrow lines created by the extra long island would be just as much a problem as trying to walk down a subway or crowded bus aisle.   They should have put in two islands side by side with a space  break in the middle so people could get to the sink or stove and then move back away for others to go by. It will take coordination to work that way.  The banquet was unnecessary but decorative. I would have like a little more pop of color --just a bit-- to break up the white and beige.  

I agree, the island was way too long, it made the kitchen seem long and narrow like a hallway. It really didn't give them any more room to all be cooking at once, although why 5 people need to be working simultaneously in the kitchen is unclear, it is something they said they wanted.  The banquette was neat, but it really wasn't needed for seating in the kitchen and I doubt it's going to get much use.  There were already plenty of seats at the island and it was otherwise isolated from the rest of the house.

[biakbiak]

This is the first design that I found to be a complete miss. 

The living room wasn’t really large enough for two separate seating areas and neither area was great for watching the tv which was in a weird spot.

I didn’t mind the long island but I thought the the seating alcove in the kitchen. And the couch with the high back as seating for one side of the dining table would be annoying for the person in the middle.

[luna1122]

I thought the house was perfectly lovely, and I love how Jeremiah tears up at the reveals,  and poppy's adorable with the new baby,  but mostly all I could focus on was seeing a cat run out the open front door of the house as they were loading furniture in. Why was the cat still there when there was construction going on?  Did someone get it back inside?  I'm so worried about it. Yeah, I'm that person.

Edited June 3, 2018 by luna1122

[Koalagirl]

I don’t really care for their designs and material.  I only watch it to see Poppy (add in Oscar now) and because Nate is my boss’s third cousin and I’m always trying to catch a resemblance or mannerism.  

[Tosia]

7 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I thought the house was perfectly lovely, and I love how Jeremiah tears up at the reveals,  and poppy's adorable with the new baby,  but mostly all I could focus on was seeing a cat run out the open front door of the house as they were loading furniture in. Why was the cat still there when there was construction going on?  Did someone get it back inside?  I'm so worried about it. Yeah, I'm that person.

Yes, the cat!  I was thinking the same thing.  

We had new carpeting  installed last year and one of our cats went missing. We looked all over inside and outside fir a day and a half.  

The next morning i was sitting near on the stairs near the dining room, petting thet other cat,   and heard a noise behind me in the kitchen. There was our missing cat !

She had been hiding on top of the refrigerator behind the cereal boxes.  Such a relief.  

Got to lock them up safely in a room.

[lookeyloo]

I too watch this show mostly to see Nate and Jeremiah and Poppy. And now we have Oskar. They seem so sweet and sincere. If I find out otherwise I will be sorely disappointed!

[iMonrey]

Quote

The living room wasn’t really large enough for two separate seating areas and neither area was great for watching the tv which was in a weird spot.

The dining room also still seemed small and awkward after the remodel. Maybe they should have combined the living room and dining room into one area rather than have them at opposites ends of that huge-ass kitchen.

I haven't heard whether or not TLC renewed this show for a third season. There were all sorts of promos with Paige Davis crowing about Trading Spaces coming back with new episodes, but nothing about N&J.

[theschnauzers]

What is neat about Oskar's naming was whom that was for. It's been long enough (15 years) that some viewers wouldn't have known or couldn't remember, but Oskar was Nate's first partner who died in the Great Indian Ocean Tsunami of Christmas 2003. At the time Nate was a regular on Oprah's old syndicated daily show. It was one of the many heart-wrenching survivor stories of that catastrophic event, but one I'd never forget.

Edited June 5, 2018 by theschnauzers

[Wings]

Oskar is the middle name of Nate’s ex, Fernando, who was killed.  

 Jeremy might have fathered both children.  He is called Daddy, and Nate is Pops.  Jeremy has always wanted kids.  Those 2 things steer me in that direction.  This is more interesting than the houses they do, for me!  

[Barlowe]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:06 PM, mlp said:

In the 90s, I worked at a hospital that had been built in the 60s and had terrazzo floors throughout.  It still looked nice and was easy to clean but it was definitely hard on the feet and legs.  It was also rather slippery.  I gave up wearing heels with my business clothes because I always felt like I was going to fall.  I can't really imagine wanting terrazzo in a house, especially in a kitchen.  Or cement either for that matter.  

I was surprised when they said they'd chosen an old-fashioned, unattractive (IMO) name for the baby and even more surprised when they said it was the name of Nate's old partner who died.  Jeremiah was obviously OK with it but it seemed odd to me to choose a name that would be a constant reminder of a previous partner and a tragedy.  I suppose the name will come to mean the child in short order.

I know they've been telling Poppy about the baby but she isn't old enough to comprehend all that.  I wonder how she reacted when they brought home a live baby brother.

I didn't find the naming too weird especially after i read tiny blurb about the tragedy. Nate essentially became a widow and lost the first love of his life. Jeremiah would be a fool to not respect that and Oskar will always be a part of their lives. If Nate was a divorcee instead of a widow, it'd be different story.

[theschnauzers]

On 7/12/2018 at 3:41 PM, Lilacly said:

On 5/24/2018 at 10:06 PM, mlp said:

In the 90s, I worked at a hospital that had been built in the 60s and had terrazzo floors throughout.  It still looked nice and was easy to clean but it was definitely hard on the feet and legs.  It was also rather slippery.  I gave up wearing heels with my business clothes because I always felt like I was going to fall.  I can't really imagine wanting terrazzo in a house, especially in a kitchen.  Or cement either for that matter.  

I was surprised when they said they'd chosen an old-fashioned, unattractive (IMO) name for the baby and even more surprised when they said it was the name of Nate's old partner who died.  Jeremiah was obviously OK with it but it seemed odd to me to choose a name that would be a constant reminder of a previous partner and a tragedy.  I suppose the name will come to mean the child in short order.

I know they've been telling Poppy about the baby but she isn't old enough to comprehend all that.  I wonder how she reacted when they brought home a live baby brother.

I didn't find the naming too weird especially after i read tiny blurb about the tragedy. Nate essentially became a widow and lost the first love of his life. Jeremiah would be a fool to not respect that and Oskar will always be a part of their lives. If Nate was a divorcee instead of a widow, it'd be different story.

Several points:

 

Nate himself barely survived the Great Indian Ocean Tsunami of 2003 and lost his partner.It was months before he was able to return to Oprah's show were he was a regular contributor. Nate obviously picked up the pieces of his life and rebuilt it. I don't underestimate the emotional sensitivity that Jonathan demonstrated in the suggestion to use the name Oskar; it seems to me to be both appropriate and compassionate.

Terrazzo floors -- the house I grew up in was in Miami and built in 1958. My parents found the house while it was still under construction and my mom made changes to the floor plan -- open screened patio, sliding glass doors an outside open entry, and she kept the terrazzo floors.

After we movedin, it turned out the house was not built level, and the floors (which were in the formal living room and formal dining room0 developed a long feacture that couldn't be repaired.  Somy parents added formal carpetin the living room with a marble looking tile to divided that and cover the dining room floor. (My dad knew how to lay tile from his days just before WWII when he laid tile for the Pentagon.)

In any event, I was amazed that the original terrazzo floors has stayed untarnished in that house and that it was expanded prior to this redesign. But the are pretty when used in the right place, and that renovation was right for that surface. As to the layout, the family didn't seem to be looking for a formal dining and living room, but a causal conversation layout, and that succeeded wonderfully.

As to another season, I haven't heard anything one way or the other. I wouldn't be surprised if they want to take some time with both kids for a while before filming another season. It has to take time to film a season's worth of renovation projects, and unlike TS, this show has a longer production time for each project from start to finish.

[iMonrey]

They were on some morning talk show a little while ago and said they were currently "in talks" about another season. I don't think that sounds too promising given how quickly Trading Spaces got the green light for another season.

[theschnauzers]

Nate and Jeremiah have just announced a third season for their show to air on TLC this spring. Check their twitter.

[theschnauzers]

The third season premiere date was announced by TLC as April 13 at 9/8 Central. Bit of news. The Scott Brothers are serving as the production team for season 3.

[friendperidot]

I am looking forward to seeing these two on my tv again. And from one commercial, their kids are getting so big! (yes, I know, kids do that)

[theschnauzers]

On 2/28/2019 at 1:07 PM, theschnauzers said:

The third season premiere date was announced by TLC as April 13 at 9/8 Central. Bit of news. The Scott Brothers are serving as the production team for season 3.

The time slot is 9/8 central, so I assume it is following TS once this show begins its season.

[Mindthinkr]

I saw this show last night. It was the episode where the people hadn’t had a kitchen sink in 16 years. They had hired contractors previously, but none were able to rise to the task of making the home usable and right. 

For what they were given (not really enough money to really make it great but good enough), the time allowed (4 weeks), and the curveball (adding 10k and having the contractor demo the bathroom to be redone without Nate and his husband knowing before they did it) I thought they did a bang up job. The remodel on the kitchen was wonderful. Especially with the addition of the two windows that brought in a lot of light. I was also concerned that there wouldn’t be enough space for chairs at the dining room table because in their what we’re going to do sketch it only showed 4 chairs. There was enough to sit 8. 

It was nice to watch them work with very few ruffled feathers and a good result at the end. YMMV 

[sheetmoss]

Boo Hiss - my DVR said lastnight was a new episode

[Koalagirl]

17 minutes ago, sheetmoss said:

Boo Hiss - my DVR said lastnight was a new episode

Me too.  I wonder why they opened the new season with a repeat.

[Misslindsey]

I believe it is suppose to start on April 13th.

[ByaNose]

I never really watch the show. I like Nate but not his partner. Anyhoo! I didn't know it was a rerun so it was new to me. Overall, they did a good job. I can't beleive the couple lived like that for so long. I've heard of fear of design but that was a bit extreme.

[jcbrown]

I wasn't crazy about this episode the first time it aired. The wife was such a ninny and the husband seemed passive aggressive. People too dim to have floors and a kitchen for 16 years clearly have more issues than can be fixed by a makeover.

Edited March 25, 2019 by jcbrown
16, not 13. Still dim.

[ams1001]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:47 PM, sheetmoss said:

Boo Hiss - my DVR said lastnight was a new episode

Apparently they are "extended" so that makes them "new" episodes. 

[buttersister]

According to the internet, concrete and quartz countertops are in the same price range, so that doesn’t explain why the original plan was concrete but quartz was installed. Was there ever a moment of doubt about the family room being redone? No, guys, nice try, but the faux drama isn’t such a good look.

[doodlebug]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 11:29 PM, buttersister said:

According to the internet, concrete and quartz countertops are in the same price range, so that doesn’t explain why the original plan was concrete but quartz was installed. Was there ever a moment of doubt about the family room being redone? No, guys, nice try, but the faux drama isn’t such a good look.

That family room was tiny and the furniture they put it there was huge!  IMO, it needed less/smaller furniture.  There looked to be virtually no floor space after they were done.

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:10 PM, jcbrown said:

I wasn't crazy about this episode the first time it aired. The wife was such a ninny and the husband seemed passive aggressive. People too dim to have floors and a kitchen for 16 years clearly have more issues than can be fixed by a makeover.

I think there had to be some very significant psychologic pathology there for them to decide that it was too traumatic to finish the remodeling job and instead choose to live with plywood flooring and washing dishes in the bathroom sink.  Not to mention never having their grandchild visit them in their own home because it was so dangerous.  There seemed to be some major mental health issues there and I wonder what the place looks like now.

[jcbrown]

I am tired of these reruns being labelled as new episodes. My TiVo picked up the episode with Peggy, the twit who loved PVC pipe crappy DIY and insisted on a swing in her house. Nope, not watching that weirdo again. Is it only one more week before we at least get new weirdos to watch?

[2727]

The TLC site has season 3 episode 1 listed as "Luxury Retreat," which aired on 4/6.

I've devoted the last few days to watching the previous seasons and goodness. I do not usually cry about design shows (unless it's Hildy on Trading Spaces), but Nate and Jeremiah are such kind and lovely people and their interactions with desperate clients verges on Queer Eye territory for me. Really sincere and touching.

Normally I'd roll my eyes at the saccharine Joanna and Chip-ness of including clips of one's children in a design show, but I make a definite exception for Poppy and Oskar. N & J are so smitten and it's brightens my day to see their love for their family.

The episodes were so long ago now, but my favorite was the woman with the colorful house that sent a panicked N & J out of their preferred calm palette. I love vibrant colors and thought the result was amazing. Details like the 50s metal fluting on the kitchen countertop edges was perfect.

In summation, I love these guys!

[ams1001]

On 4/11/2019 at 5:53 PM, 2727 said:

Normally I'd roll my eyes at the saccharine Joanna and Chip-ness of including clips of one's children in a design show, but I make a definite exception for Poppy and Oskar. N & J are so smitten and it's brightens my day to see their love for their family.

Poppy's so freakin' adorable I can't be mad. I haven't seen Oskar except in the recent commercials, and maybe a few scenes last season when he was an infant.

[CrazyInAlabama]

My guess about the concrete counter tops v. quartz is that concrete has a multi-day cure time, and has to be done on site.    Quartz, they do a template, fabricate it at the shop, and bring it out and install it pretty quickly, then just have to install the sink, dishwasher, and cook top (if there is one instead of a one piece stove) in place.    Much quicker to do one than the other.  

[biakbiak]

I hated everything about this opening from start to finish! Rich horders living in a money pit. And so many chairs in the bedroom.

I normally like their design but I hated most of it! The fact that they made actual pocket doors instead of stupid barn doors but everything else I HATED!

[ams1001]

10 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I hated everything about this opening from start to finish! Rich horders living in a money pit. And so many chairs in the bedroom.

I didn't hate it but I had the same thought about the furniture. Too much! Especially those big chairs at the end of the bed. I can see that guy accidentally slamming that sliding door open every time he comes in the room. Looks like it moved a lot easier than he expected.

I wouldn't mind having her closet, though. (Minus that hideous yellow daybed thing. Too big, ugly color (but I'm not a big fan of the yellow/orange color family in general), and if she's anything like me, it'll be covered with stuff in a week.)

While I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a huge doors to the outside in my bedroom (were there any kind of curtains or shades?), they do have a nice view out there. I wonder what they actually got the doors for (and how much went on in between Nate asking "can you cut us a deal?" and the cut to the handshake agreement). I don't know if the costs they show at end are the actual prices they paid or what the viewer could expect to pay if they wanted to get the same thing. The price shown was $15K, and that's 1/3 of the budget they gave right there. If that is the discounted price, what do those doors actually cost?!

[sheetmoss]

13 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I hated everything about this opening from start to finish! Rich horders living in a money pit. And so many chairs in the bedroom.

I normally like their design but I hated most of it! The fact that they made actual pocket doors instead of stupid barn doors but everything else I HATED!

Not sure if they were hoarders or just two people combining households and  not dealing with it because of continuous reno.

I didn't care for the after, I thought it was very meh.  It didn't have their look/style.

I  thought the 'foyer' was wasted space - fill it w/cabinets/storage instead, or take even more space from it for her closet.

[BradandJanet]

I thought the same thing about the foyer, just useless space. However, wasn't it next to the bathroom, where the plumbing couldn't be moved within the budget? I can't remember the floor plan, but they didn't want to cut into her closet. 

The bed came from Nate and Jeremiah's guest room? 

[2727]

1 hour ago, sheetmoss said:

I didn't care for the after, I thought it was very meh. 

So beige, it was! The bedspread and draperies were not only bland but looked thin and cheap. Hopefully they're better in person. The homeowners at least pretended to be happy with their mid-level hotel room ambience.

Overall, I think the show needs to find its purpose. The earlier episodes were about helping "worthy" people with remodels gone wrong whose budgets were so low that N&J had to beg, borrow and call in favors in order to finish the projects. Then the show morphed into more straightforward design with realistic budgets.

I prefer the latter because I don't enjoy putting contractors and suppliers on the spot and its repetitive and boring to watch, but I also gotta say that the guys wouldn't run out of money if they didn't buy such freaking expensive furniture in the first place. Some of these high end designers (hi Thom Filicia!) can't seem to understand that a $1K couch may be a perfectly reasonable couch. Nate loves him some accessories, but that stuff ends up costing thousands of dollars.

Also, viewers understand that these shows have an large staff of design assistants so there's no need to pretend that N&J are doing the installs all by themselves.