S05.E08: Immersion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

A secret brings Elizabeth and Paige together, while, in Moscow, Oleg's own secrets put him under KGB suspicion. A new twist in the Morozov operation creates an opportunity that changes everything.

Promo:

[Ellaria]

I'm a little concerned that the episode title - "Immersion" - and the description  - "A secret brings Elizabeth and Paige together" - means that we will see Elizabeth further involving Paige in their work. Ugh! Since Gabriel gave her a message that differed from what he told Phillip, I can see E being self-righteous about Paige's "training."

And it looks like Margo Martindale is back to torment P&E. I don't like Claudia but MM is always fun to watch.

Are we done with Ben, Deidre and the Super Wheat?

[AimingforYoko]

Philip got dumped, hahahahhahahahaha. Liz nailed the diagnosis though, Phil had a Martha hangover. I love that he may have gotten her back by being a philanderer.

I was a little surprised Liz told Paige that she was raped, but it was very Elizabethan the way she did it.

[Primetimer]

Mrs. Morozov may not actually go to a pot luck, but she does get lucky.

View the full article

[benteen]

Really, really good Americans.  Some fantastic interaction.  Elizabeth and Philip in the beginning, everything with Margo Martindale, etc. 

I thought that Elizabeth might tell Paige that she was raped and was glad that she did.  Though it is noticeable she left out the part that it was her KGB trainer, just like she and Philip left out the truth about the grain last week.  Still, if she told the whole truth, she'd have to tell Paige that she fought her rapist and then Philip killed him in the very garage they were currently in.

Philip getting dumped was pretty damn funny.

[crgirl412]

It was a very odd episode as far as the directing goes: depressing, long, furtive looks at each other. 

Philip was so hostile in the opening scene.  I wonder if it was due to what Gabe told him about Paige.

The Oleg scene and Stan and Aderholt and their recruit were not as dark as the ones with the Jennings.  I did like seeing Henry at home with friends over! 

[sistermagpie]

Paige is kind of become the Megan of this season for me. As in Mad Men's Megan. I will always defend her part in the show, and especially now that it's over I see what MW was doing and why he had to make certain choices, but there were times when I really resented her when she showed up on screen. And I'm starting to really feel that way with Paige. I know she's important, I get what they're doing, but man, she and Elizabeth are like the twin planets of the family with Philip and Henry the occasionally appearing moons. This week I got teased with a scene with Henry and his normal friends, and then I'm back to Paige and Elizabeth bonding. (I know Philip gets plenty of emotional stuff in other ways but I still want him to actually uncover his actual past so we can get it. Elizabeth always has her past handy to explain herself to anyone--Philip, Paige, Brad the sailor, Betty... Philip's still almost always just on defense reacting.) I know I should have been happy with a scene as emotional (in theory) of Elizabeth telling Paige she'd been raped, but maybe it just doesn't land the same way since both those scenes seemed to be about Elizabeth once again gearing up to prove that working for the Centre was a great life choice for Paige. And now she's got Granny on her side about it. I like how Philip made it clear he wanted her to not try to get into their heads and then Philip's basically sitting at the table begging her to get into her head. Just like Gabriel in season 3.

Speaking of which, I guess it was a nice theme with Elizabeth once again going back to chatting with the Centre about her private life, this time to Claudia, who tried to break up her marriage once but who can say? Anyway, saw a little theme there with Philip suggesting Gabriel was mostly doing his job with them and Elizabeth bringing up her rape without mentioning it was condoned by the people she still wants Paige to work for. She just has to do more self-defense and then she won't be hurt at all! There's no such thing as emotional pain!

Loved Philip getting back with Deirdre and showing no, he hasn't lost his mojo even if his job is often more complicated than Elizabeth's "show up and the guy will want to impress you" job. Also way to continue to diss EST (hich you find too scary) while taking Tai Chi lessons from that guy.

1 minute ago, benteen said:

Still, if she told the whole truth, she'd have to tell Paige that she fought her rapist and then Philip killed him in the very garage they were currently in.

She wouldn't have to tell Paige that just because she told him the guy was from the Centre, though.

Glad to get back to the Morozov's and possibly Tuan. Basically I'm longing for Henry and Tuan.

[Erin9]

Only on this show would Elizabeth and Philip deciding  not to see their lovers be a bonding moment for them. Interesting that Elizabeth said it first. Yeah,  she's all for the cause, but she's getting over spying. 

Philip blurting out to Elizabeth that he got dumped was just funny. Again, only on this show would that be funny and a bonding moment for them. Interesting that her problem was his lack of aggression. Considering how aggressive Philip can be. And now he knows. Loved Elizabeth matter of factly and very earnestly telling him he's as attractive as she is. Elizabeth was absolutely right though: Philip could get her back if he had to. Who knew telling her he was married- which is true- would get her to pick up the phone? I'm impressed. Philip got his A-game. I'm glad. I really didn't want him to be in the position of explaining this to Claudia. Nice directing shot of Philip on the phone too. He's saying he's married and we get a clear view of his wedding ring. 

Elizabeth telling Claudia that she and Philip wouldn't agree about Paige seems shockingly foolish given the warning Philip has been given. True enough, and everyone knows they disagree about Paige, but foolish. OTOH- Claudia also knows things are good with them. Though I don't think she realizes how good they've been. They've come a long way since the last time she interacted with them. 

How did I not see it coming that Elizabeth would tell Paige about being raped? It seems so obvious now. Too bad Elizabeth couldn't finish the story- your dad killed the rapist in our garage. And Paige is right- she has no bedside manner. 

Wow. We really are seeing the price everyone is paying for spying. Claudia has a daughter and grandkids. And she doesn't mean much to them because she was never there. And yet she came back to the US and let it go.  I guess we know Claudia's ultimate priorities. What will Elizabeth's be? 

I like Sofia. I hadn't really taken notice of her, but she's so sweet. Asking for dental help, such a small thing for most of us, was really touching. 

Hey.....Henry had his friends over playing video games. Nice, realistic scene. 

Oleg's in trouble. Wonder who got him in trouble. 

Hmmm- this Morozov story has a lot of twists and turns. Now she's having an affair with a CIA agent.....

Next week really seems to heat up 

Spoiler

Is them getting the virus going to come back  to haunt them? Oleg is still in trouble. And what's up with Tuon? Enquiring minds.....I miss being able to binge watch this show!!

Edited April 26, 2017 by Erin9

[Umbelina]

I know this is a drama, but does every single thing have to be so fucking depressing? 

Yes, true to the spy game, spying is hard y'all, but without the occasional action sequence or at least the perceived danger to someone other than various pathetic innocents I am just getting sad.

I don't want Pasha systematically bullied.

I'm tired of lonely, ignored Tuan begging for company, and the occasional assist from his partners.

I don't want that sad Russian woman who loves her son so much and has painful teeth to end up used and abused like Nina.

I don't want Elizabeth's loose lips to Claudia bringing more hell down on Philip.

I don't want pretty Oleg, who is one character that did the right thing to suffer for that.

Speaking of Oleg, it could be his house was tossed because

• He looked at his mother's prison file
• The CIA ratted him out anyway because they are pissed at the FBI
• He's in big trouble with the Mob or KGB who are the real controllers of the stolen food
• Nothing at all, or he's just been in America too long, or his connection with traitor Nina is known

Either way?  I want him to escape and go live on a beach somewhere and take his mother with him.

I'm not objecting to the reality the writers and actors are bringing to this drudgery of a life of lies, but in past seasons, they seemed to temper that somehow, without losing that pathos or day to day soul killing nature of being a spy.  Maybe it's that it's TOO real, real spy work is boring, takes forever, only sometimes pays off, a lot of hurry up and wait.  Maybe they want us to feel all these depressed spy's pains?

Because I do.  I feel as worn down as they are, and just waiting for something to happen, and the things that are about to happen are even more icky than what we've been wading through. 

Good job finally getting out Gabriel, what took you so long?

[benteen]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I know this is a drama, but does every single thing have to be so fucking depressing? 

I like the show as it is but I've often thought the lack of humor was one of the reasons it doesn't pull in big ratings.  Though the Philip getting dumped thing was pretty funny.

Edited April 26, 2017 by benteen

[Erin9]

Elizabeth might be wrong about her and Philip never agreeing about Paige. I initially agreed with her, but I wonder. Plus, when a character says never, that usually means the door is actually open. Elizabeth wants her to care about things that matter. She never actually said what. Would she mind if Paige cared deeply about something else- obviously other than religion? Then, at the end, she talks about how she might have been a doctor under different circumstances. Interesting.

[Dev F]

I'm not sure it was a good idea for the series to dial back so much on the spycraft this year. It's not that I care all that much about the plotty details of international espionage, but the ongoing story arcs have always provided a nice framework for the character beats and a good way to convey the themes of a given episode. Without them, the character-building scenes this season have had to do a lot more heavy lifting -- which sometimes gets in the way of them just being good character beats. Whereas the spy stuff is ultimately silly bullshit, so using it for structural purposes in seasons past just got in the way of it being silly bullshit, and nothing much was lost.

Nonetheless, I thought this was one of the best episodes of the season, largely because the character moments were so strong. I'm partial to scenarios where characters find themselves revisiting old emotional territory, because it offers them and us a chance to explore how they've changed and how they're still the same. And this week saw both Elizabeth and Philip going all the way back to the beginning of their respective character arcs, with Elizabeth recounting her rape at the hands of Timoshev (I love that she segued into telling Paige her story by staring achingly at the spot where she put Timoshev's head through the wall), and Deirdre's "I need someone more assertive" phone call to "Gus" echoing the recorded speech from Elizabeth to her mark that Philip angsts over in the pilot: "I'd want you to be a little [. . .] stronger, maybe?"

It's interesting that their reactions are both so similar to how they responded way back in the pilot -- Philip lashing out to prove that he's not some emasculated pushover, Elizabeth shutting herself off to prove she doesn't need anyone's help to overcome her difficulties. And yet, unlike in the pilot, they're nothing but open and supportive of each other's problems, as if being loving partners has nothing to do with whatever they're going through as individuals. Which on the one hand is a lot healthier, since they're long past blaming each other for their own shit -- but on the other hand it's got to be pretty lonely, because they clearly no longer see each other as the solutions to their respective problems, either. Elizabeth's unconditional love doesn't make Philip feel like any less of a sad milquetoast, and when Elizabeth explains to Paige what she focuses on instead of the memories of her assault, she talks about her duty and her children -- not mentioning Philip at all.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

You'll love the VOX review/discussion I'm reading right now @Dev F  It's pretty much combining our two posts so far, and adding a bit more interesting discussion about generations, parents, children.  I linked it in the Media thread.

[TaurusRose]

I'm glad some people are enjoying this season. This episode had some solid moments, but I am way past tired of Paige.  I think my brain shuts down whenever she is on-screen. The actress is beyond dull and I'm sick of her repetitive dialogue. If something doesn't happen soon, I'm out.

Edited April 26, 2017 by taurusrose

[jjj]

"Deirdre broke up with me."  It is awful how much I laughed at him blurting that out.  And it was totally his delivery. 

[paulvdb]

That racing game that Henry and his friends were playing looked familiar. I think I played the same game when I was a kid. Or maybe all racing games from the 1980s looked very similar. It's been a long time, so I don't remember much about it. But I do remember the split screen with one player's car on the top half and the other player's car on the bottom half of the screen. And the red and white on the sides of the road.

[Bannon]

There wasn't anything wrong with this episode that having Paige be a well written character would not have cured. Unfortunately, that mistake was made a long time, ago, and it may be too late to fix.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know that agents are trained to do whatever is necessary, but their plan is now to abandon, torment, and bully an already miserable teenage boy in hopes that his unhappiness will drive his mother to move back to Russia? Since these are fictional characters, I hope Pasha commits suicide just so Tuan, Elizabeth, and Phillip feel guilty about this decision.

When Elizabeth asked Margo Martindale where she's been, I was hoping she'd say, "In Kentucky making moonshine and kicking ass!"

Loved seeing Henry be a normal kid with his friends. And nice that Stan isn't spilling about what Henry told him about his new crush.

I was totally laughing when Phillip called Deirdre and she dumped him. She's just not that into you, man.

[chocolatine]

When Deirdre said that "Gus" wasn't assertive enough for her, I thought Philip would go with the "Clark" persona again. I didn't expect him to play the married man card and her to fall for it. Philip may be conflicted about what he does, but he's so darn good at it.

When the KGB were turning over Oleg's room I was reminded again how extremely privileged the Burov family is. Growing up in the Soviet Union in the 80s, I didn't know anyone with such a nice apartment, with bedrooms big enough to house a piano in addition to the bed and wardrobe. I don't want Oleg to get into trouble because he's always acted out of his best intentions, but I will admit that I'm a little resentful of his privilege given how tough most other people had it.

I don't usually condone cheating, but Alexei is such a blow-hard who doesn't give a shit about his wife's and son's feelings, so I can't blame Yevgenia too much for getting some male attention on the side. Of course this is going to end spectacularly bad for her, but at least she's having some fun before it all comes crashing down.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I know this is a drama, but does every single thing have to be so fucking depressing? 

I know, right? And now I'm off to watch The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu, so my TV viewing is only going to get more depressing.

[jjj]

I did not understand why they would want the Russian wife sent back to Russia.  I'd think the potential for blackmailing her would be a bonus, and would give them an inside person at the language classes.  What use is it to send her back? 

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

I did not understand why they would want the Russian wife sent back to Russia.  I'd think the potential for blackmailing her would be a bonus, and would give them an inside person at the language classes.  What use is it to send her back? 

The guy she's having the affair with is a CIA agent soon to be posted to Moscow (hence the Russian language classes). The KGB's hope is that she continues the affair with him in Moscow and that way she can get information from him.

Edited April 26, 2017 by chocolatine

[jjj]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

The KGB's hope is that she continues the affair with him in Moscow and that way she can get information from him.

Thanks, I guess I missed that he would be going to Moscow.  And he is American, right? 

[chocolatine]

Just now, jjj said:

Thanks, I guess I missed that he would be going to Moscow.  And he is American, right? 

Yes, see my updated post above. He's an American CIA agent taking Russian language classes from her, but the two of them put a new spin on "immersion". (I know, gross. I'll show myself out.)

[Anela]

Philip getting dumped was funny.

I also don't want a kid to be bullied, to further their agenda. 

[SWLinPHX]

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

[vb68]

There was part of Philip that was relishing using Gabriel's words about Paige for shock value, and Elizabeth didn't disappoint. She was stunned.

I think Elizabeth is somewhat in denial about Ben. Not that he's some great love, but her doing tai chi on her own shows he has left an impression. She admires him for sure. I still think she might very well try to turn him.

Elizabeth and Paige were going at it pretty good. I don't think Elizabeth was just giving lip service to Paige that she's improving.  She clearly had.

My other main observation is just how different the whole dynamic is with Claudia there instead of Gabriel.  Philip may think he's heading it off, but she's already in their heads. I think she may be more crafty in her dealings than Gabriel ever was too.  She has learned how to push Elizabeth's buttons just enough without going too far. 

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'm tired of lonely, ignored Tuan begging for company, and the occasional assist from his partners.

I'm tired of Tuan, period.  His plan to bully Pasha was the final straw.  He's so arrogant about everything, especially the kids in school, that I hope his plan blows up and the asshole kids come after him.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't want that sad Russian woman who loves her son so much and has painful teeth to end up used and abused like Nina.

I don't have a good feeling about how things may go with her.

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

Elizabeth's unconditional love doesn't make Philip feel like any less of a sad milquetoast, and when Elizabeth explains to Paige what she focuses on instead of the memories of her assault, she talks about her duty and her children -- not mentioning Philip at all.

And she told the Russian wife that time apart is a necessity, and she said it with enough conviction that it sure sounded like she meant it.

BTW what was the wife baking? It was a pastry, right? She curious because Elizabeth clearly liked them.

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Elizabeth asked Margo Martindale where she's been, I was hoping she'd say, "In Kentucky making moonshine and kicking ass!"

Or trying to help get this cheater from Chicago with a difficult wife elected President. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by vb68

[Ellaria]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'm not sure it was a good idea for the series to dial back so much on the spycraft this year. It's not that I care all that much about the plotty details of international espionage, but the ongoing story arcs have always provided a nice framework for the character beats and a good way to convey the themes of a given episode. Without them, the character-building scenes this season have had to do a lot more heavy lifting -- which sometimes gets in the way of them just being good character beats. Whereas the spy stuff is ultimately silly bullshit, so using it for structural purposes in seasons past just got in the way of it being silly bullshit, and nothing much was lost.

 

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I know this is a drama, but does every single thing have to be so fucking depressing? 

Yes, true to the spy game, spying is hard y'all, but without the occasional action sequence or at least the perceived danger to someone other than various pathetic innocents I am just getting sad...

I'm not objecting to the reality the writers and actors are bringing to this drudgery of a life of lies, but in past seasons, they seemed to temper that somehow, without losing that pathos or day to day soul killing nature of being a spy.  Maybe it's that it's TOO real, real spy work is boring, takes forever, only sometimes pays off, a lot of hurry up and wait.  Maybe they want us to feel all these depressed spy's pains?

Because I do.  I feel as worn down as they are, and just waiting for something to happen, and the things that are about to happen are even more icky than what we've been wading through. 

Good job finally getting out Gabriel, what took you so long?

These two posts summarize my ambivalence about this season. I actually fell asleep while watching it. It is depressing...and it's dark and a downer. Everything is done in hushed tones and the sense of dread that has always hung over this show has increased exponentially.

Every show needs to find a balance of character and plot and this show has done it well...until now. I, too, am getting worn down by the despair and ruin in these characters' actions. I get it: living a life of deception is tough. We see it in every character, especially Paige. When every scene is one of angst and darkness and guilt...well, that gets difficult to watch.

I also believe that the show is less without Martha, Gaad and Arkady, at least for me. There was something about these characters - their humanity, perhaps - that added a different element to the show. I can't quite describe it but it feels like there is a hole in this show without them.

Nonetheless, I'm in until the end but, so far, this season has been a bit of a slog. It's worth watching for Matthew Rhys' performance, if nothing else.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[Rick Infinity]

That racing game that Henry and his friends were playing looked familiar. I think I played the same game when I was a kid. Or maybe all racing games from the 1980s looked very similar. It's been a long time, so I don't remember much about it. But I do remember the split screen with one player's car on the top half and the other player's car on the bottom half of the screen. And the red and white on the sides of the road.

I read somewhere else it was Pitstop. I remember playing that too. We destroyed all of our joysticks playing that game because you had to bang the stick as fast as possible to win.

[BetyBee]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

These two posts summarize my ambivalence about this season. I actually fell asleep while watching it. It is depressing...and it's dark and a downer. Everything is done in hushed tones and the sense of dread that has always hung over this show has increased exponentially.

Every show needs to find a balance of character and plot and this show has done it well...until now. I, too, am getting worn down by the despair and ruin in these characters' actions. I get it: living a life of deception is tough. We see it in every character, especially Paige. Every scene does not need to be one of angst and darkness and guilt.

I also believe that the show is less without Martha, Gaad and Arkady, at least for me. There was something about these characters - their humanity, perhaps - that added a different element to the show. I can't quite describe it but it feels like there is a hole in this show without them.

Nonetheless, I'm in until the end but, so far, this season has been a bit of a slog. It's worth watching for Matthew Rhys' performance, if nothing else.

I'm afraid I have to agree.  I found this episode to be boring.  I guess the writers are setting the table for next week (I hope), but it seems like we are just treading water.  I knew Elizabeth & Paige were going to share a secret, but I was disappointed that it was one we viewers already knew.  I was kind of hoping the secret would come from Paige, something that would enrage Elizabeth.  Perhaps learning that Matthew or Pastor Groovyhair forcing themselves on her, or even the story about the guy she and Henry took a ride with seasons ago.  I do not look forward to Pasha being bullied.  Speaking of Pasha, Mrs. Morozov is such a beautiful woman!  Almost too beautiful for the role...until she started getting sexy times with the CIA agent! 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The guy she's having the affair with is a CIA agent soon to be posted to Moscow (hence the Russian language classes). The KGB's hope is that she continues the affair with him in Moscow and that way she can get information from him.

This could backfire, though. Maybe he is already working her?  

[stagmania]

12 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Philip got dumped, hahahahhahahahaha. Liz nailed the diagnosis though, Phil had a Martha hangover. I love that he may have gotten her back by being a philanderer.

I was a little bit delighted that he figured out being married was the trick to making her comfortable. That whole plot was hilarious.

8 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Not everyone wants a partner; Deirdre is clearly pretty content with her life and wants nothing more from a relationship than sex. I don't see what her looks have to do with it.

11 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Elizabeth might be wrong about her and Philip never agreeing about Paige. I initially agreed with her, but I wonder. Plus, when a character says never, that usually means the door is actually open. Elizabeth wants her to care about things that matter. She never actually said what. Would she mind if Paige cared deeply about something else- obviously other than religion? Then, at the end, she talks about how she might have been a doctor under different circumstances. Interesting.

I thought it was interesting that she mentioned wanting to be a doctor in the third world. It really underlines how Elizabeth thinks of her work-as a sacrifice and service that is ultimately rooted in good. It seems to me that she wants Paige to find the same kind of purpose, but that doesn't have to mean working for the KGB.

Edited April 26, 2017 by stagmania

[kokapetl]

The only thing Stan bothered to whisper at the model sailing ship museum was "$500 a month". He's back to his exploitative ways! The plot is otherwise tedious. The lady evidently works for TASS (it was on the map).

Deirdre is odd. Gus is insufficiently assertive? He basically pestered himself into her life. 

I prefer Claudia to Gabriel. 

[Erin9]

I'm stuck on that fact that Claudia's first order to them was to keep up the affairs. And Elizabeth was the first one to disobey and decide she wasn't going to bother with Ben this week. Philip was pretty surprised by her decision. And she was happy Philip did the same. Even if she didn't let him see how happy she was. 

The thing about Elizabeth's feelings for Philip is- I think it's obvious she's in love with him. But she hadn't been able to say it- to him, about him, written down- in any way at all. So I have no expectation of her talking about her feelings for him to Paige in any way.  This is the woman who a few weeks ago called just to tell him she missed him- and it was a big deal. Being vulnerable about Philip is, to me, harder than talking about caring about her job or her kids. But I have to believe we're leading up to it. Honestly- if we never hear her say it, it'll seem like this series missed the boat. A big part of it has been the build up and evolution of their relationship. 

I'm not bored though. I'm in the minority, I know. As for being depressed, this season has actually provided some of the funnier moments to me, even though I agree- everyone is pretty depressed. That said, I do think next week needs to move things along. It kind of looks like it will. It's hard to judge from previews, but it looks like a lot is going on. 

A poster mentioned watching The Handmaid's Tale. Having read the book, that'll be non- stop depressing if it follows the book. It's pretty  dark. 

[shura]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

their plan is now to abandon, torment, and bully an already miserable teenage boy in hopes that his unhappiness will drive his mother to move back to Russia?

I don't understand the mechanics of this. I thought Morozov was a defector, which is why the FBI was guarding him so heavily in his private consulting trips around the country. And yet his wife is free to move back and forth across the Iron Curtain and pick which side she wants to live on? That's not really how it worked even for law-abiding for Soviet citizens, let alone defectors. She could, I suppose, count on propaganda value of her return (as in "it's really so bad over there that even our defectors choose to come back"), but then why would her CIA guy stick around all this publicity?

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also way to continue to diss EST (hich you find too scary) while taking Tai Chi lessons from that guy.

Ah, but Tai Chi looks like slow kung fu, it's so much cooler that EST, which looks like slow... thinking about things?

[SunnyBeBe]

23 minutes ago, shura said:

I don't understand the mechanics of this. I thought Morozov was a defector, which is why the FBI was guarding him so heavily in his private consulting trips around the country. And yet his wife is free to move back and forth across the Iron Curtain and pick which side she wants to live on? That's not really how it worked even for law-abiding for Soviet citizens, let alone defectors. She could, I suppose, count on propaganda value of her return (as in "it's really so bad over there that even our defectors choose to come back"), but then why would her CIA guy stick around all this publicity?

Ah, but Tai Chi looks like slow kung fu, it's so much cooler that EST, which looks like slow... thinking about things?

Good points above.  I wondered the same thing.

I also have questions about Sofia.  I must have missed some things about her.  Where does she work?  Who are her co-workers?  What kind of intel is she expected to give the FBI?  When Stan and his partner were charting her route on that map, why did they suddenly say, let's get her off the street?  Was she on the way to meet them?  Was she on the way to her lunch location?  

I do feel for Sofia.  I get the feeling that she she's not going to make it.  She doesn't seem like good material for that kind of thing to me.  She's way too gullible and I'd be worried that she would inadvertently put me in danger as an agent. 

[withanaich]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

6 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Not everyone wants a partner; Deirdre is clearly pretty content with her life and wants nothing more from a relationship than sex. I don't see what her looks I have to do with it.

I think her looks do come into play here, or at least the way they're perceived, because it's one of the reasons Philip approached this whole thing wrong. Yes, he's still thinking about Martha, but they all underestimated Deirdre because she's older, "plain," and works a "boring" job. Elizabeth specifically mentioned Deirdre's age and job when she teased Philip about getting kicked out of bed by Deirdre. He made a lot of assumptions about her, and then was so entrenched in these assumptions that he didn't see that he needed to come up with a new approach. She kept clearly indicating that she was serious about her job and just looking for something casual, and yet this seasoned spy kept pushing and pushing like a lovesick puppy. I did think it was clever (and hilarious) that Philip finally figured out that he needed to play the Married card with her. She didn't even give him a chance to finish leaving a message!

[attica]

6 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

 I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Every person has a right to be picky, regardless of how conventionally attractive (physically or socially) they are or aren't. Good on Deirdre.

I thought KR did a terrific job in the confession scene with Paige. I loved the little moments where you see her decide to share, and arranging the story in her head before she spoke it.  I also ruefully noted her syntax "I was raped" rather than  how she began: "A man [raped me]." Because we're still framing rape as something that happens, rather than something that rapists do.

[Eulipian 5k]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

the two of them put a new spin on "immersion". (I know, gross. I'll show myself out.)

That's as bad as a philandering NSA chief writing his bio with his lover and naming it "All In". No wait, did that happen?

Spies have the most fun.

[Inquisitionist]

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'm not sure it was a good idea for the series to dial back so much on the spycraft this year. It's not that I care all that much about the plotty details of international espionage, but the ongoing story arcs have always provided a nice framework for the character beats and a good way to convey the themes of a given episode. Without them, the character-building scenes this season have had to do a lot more heavy lifting -- which sometimes gets in the way of them just being good character beats. Whereas the spy stuff is ultimately silly bullshit, so using it for structural purposes in seasons past just got in the way of it being silly bullshit, and nothing much was lost.

I think that's why seasons 2 and 4 have been my favorites so far.  S2 had the opening murder of the Jennings' "mirror image" family as well as the operations involving Larrick to propel the action, while providing lots of reflection on family and marital dynamics.  S4 had the Glanders virus story and a compelling counter-point character in William, as well as the related Young Hee through-line.  S5's wheat story is a fizzle and Tuan is so far a pretty poor substitute for William and other past characters.

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

When Deirdre said that "Gus" wasn't assertive enough for her, I thought Philip would go with the "Clark" persona again. I didn't expect him to play the married man card and her to fall for it. Philip may be conflicted about what he does, but he's so darn good at it.

He certainly is!

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I also believe that the show is less without Martha, Gaad and Arkady, at least for me. There was something about these characters - their humanity, perhaps - that added a different element to the show. I can't quite describe it but it feels like there is a hole in this show without them.

I agree that losing the Rezidentura and its characters was a big blow.

[ChromaKelly]

I felt like there was much more going on in this episode than the last one. Someone last week mentioned the hushed tones of the dialogue and now I really notice it, especially regarding Elizabeth.
I officially hate Tuan now. Advocating for that poor boy to be bullied. Sometimes I don't know which is worse, outright killing people or fucking up their lives just for the "cause". 
Deirdre is a hoot and she has every right to be picky. I like that she isn't desperate for a man and that Phillip was thrown on how to handle her. I'm still a little confused as to why P&E are still working their Kansas targets though, isn't it over?
Oh Elizabeth! I was raped and I got over it by becoming a superspy killer. 
I'm worried about Bad Teeth Mom. This isn't going to end well. Also still worried about Oleg. 
 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

Elizabeth's unconditional love doesn't make Philip feel like any less of a sad milquetoast, and when Elizabeth explains to Paige what she focuses on instead of the memories of her assault, she talks about her duty and her children -- not mentioning Philip at all.

I haven't quite put my finger on how all that works for Philip. Because on one hand, he's often horrified at how much of not-milquetoast he is. That's something he uses, especially on people like Stan, but in reality he murdered at least one person in a rage when he was 10 and has a pile of bodies to his credit since then. It's almost like the wimp side of him is the place he hides his actual murderous coldness. (Also there's the whole conundrum of how the KGB describes it as "weakness" when Philip stands up to them, even though it's actually kind of the opposite.)

But then there is part of him that knows that his whole life is humiliating in that he's used as a tool by people who don't care about him. And he's got Elizabeth pushing him to be a better spy, and treating him like an annoying stray dog for most of their marriage. Which I don't think makes him aggressive just to prove he's not a doormat but also because it's a way to express anger that he's not give the basic respect and care that he thinks people deserve. 

9 hours ago, taurusrose said:

 

I'm glad some people are enjoying this season. This episode had some solid moments, but I am way past tired of Paige.

 

Yeah, like I said, it's gotten to where none of her scenes land with me the way they obviously should. Elizabeth telling her about her rape is obviously a big character moment but it didn't stand out. And later when she's lying on the couch moping I just found myself not happy that it was an excuse for Elizabeth to have another mother/daughter bonding moment over how important it is to prioritize giant social problems.  

I think part of it is that Paige reacts to everything the same way. Watching her hear about her mother's rape I don't feel it landing for her in some specific way that changes the way she sees her mother. Which maybe isn't fair because she obviously has changed her perspective a lot over the years. But it's more like I wait to see where the writing goes later to see how it changed.  In the moment it's just "my eyebrows salute you in tragic V-formation."

I did like when that was reflected in her discussion with Philip about EST. How Elizabeth dismissed it as being about how all that matters is "peoples' feelings" while basically calling him an ineffectual pussy for caring about the people they hurt (and as usually dismissing any suggestion that any source can be an individual with limits on how much they can be manipulated) and Philip said he'd never gotten that from it, that for him it was more about thinking about parts of himself he'd never thought about before. In an ep when Elizabeth seemed to be recommitting herself to the Cause being everything--talking to her handler about her marriage and Philip's doubts, holding out martial arts as the correct way to deal with feelings, responding to all questions about whether she likes what she does in the passive voice. Her life is simply the anti-EST.

Henry's one tiny scene actually made me wonder exactly how she relates to him. Philip seems to have always imagined a future where he himself was rejected by his own children so that they could have the freedom he couldn't, but how does Elizabeth think about Henry? He hasn't shown any signs, like Paige, of being "like her" in ways that would make her want to furiously bond with him and turn him into a mini-me. 

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Loved seeing Henry be a normal kid with his friends. And nice that Stan isn't spilling about what Henry told him about his new crush.

 

Well, he kind of did, at least if what he knows is what we saw. He confirmed what Philip thought without spilling any details. But yeah, he's got basic respect for Henry there.

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

This could backfire, though. Maybe he is already working her?  

Working her for what? She's the wife of a defector. There's nothing for a CIA agent to work with her. Her husband works for his team.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

The thing about Elizabeth's feelings for Philip is- I think it's obvious she's in love with him. But she hadn't been able to say it- to him, about him, written down- in any way at all. So I have no expectation of her talking about her feelings for him to Paige in any way.  This is the woman who a few weeks ago called just to tell him she missed him- and it was a big deal. Being vulnerable about Philip is, to me, harder than talking about caring about her job or her kids. But I have to believe we're leading up to it. Honestly- if we never hear her say it, it'll seem like this series missed the boat. A big part of it has been the build up and evolution of their relationship. 

Yeah, Elizabeth's spent her whole life making sure she believed that love is something that's meant to be sacrificed for the Cause. She doesn't want to touch the feelings she has underneath where she feels rejected and used, especially by her mother who "didn't blink" before choosing to send her out of her life. I think she keeps trying in some ways to have it both ways. By sacrificing Paige to the cause, just as her mother sacrificed her, she can both reinforce the idea that Paige herself shouldn't matter so much and also keep Paige tied to her in ways her mother didn't keep the two of them tied. The Cause becomes an excuse to stay close to Paige.

Likewise, her whole relationship with Gregory was full of the two of them agreeing that the Cause was more important and he died the way he was supposed to for it, not knowing that Elizabeth had actually moved on from him. Of all the people in her life Philip seems to be the biggest threat to this belief system because of his doubts. She obviously doesn't want to give him up--he's easily the best human connection she has. But not only does she continually have this quasi-cheating relationship on him with the Centre (whether the Centre is personified as Claudia, Gabriel, Gregory or Zhukov), she can't even seem to face honorable discharge.

And I do think that part of her attitude in this ep was in reaction to Philip telling her what Gabriel said--like how dare he make that suggestion that it's bad to put someone in this kind of life. He loves them and he's a good man. There couldn't possibly be more to know. Why is anyone even thinking about the Purges? Elizabeth knew the camps existed. What else is there to know?

[RedHawk]

1 minute ago, ChromaKelly said:

I officially hate Tuan now. Advocating for that poor boy to be bullied. Sometimes I don't know which is worse, outright killing people or fucking up their lives just for the "cause". 

Not only that, but for P&E Pasha is a fellow Russian citizen and a boy who's done nothing "wrong". They've seen that he's a decent kid who laughs with "their son" Tuan and will be devastated if Tuan abandons or turns on him. He even wants to return to his life in Russia! I thought it seemed like Elizabeth, for those reasons, was uncomfortable with the bullying plan, but she accepted it. 

[Ellaria]

7 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

That would be mild compared to the vast majority of tragedy that both Philip and Elizabeth have caused.  This whole thing is starting to drag for me, because Philip and Elizabeth haven't been close to being caught in quite some time.

A few episodes without Paige would also be helpful.  Bring on the kid (Henry) that has less face time than Chuck Cunningham  did on Happy Days.  Henry was in this episode for just a little bit, but he really just seems to be there just to fill out the family, and for no other reason.

Not a fan of Tuan's recommendation to bully Pasha. I don't care how it relates to other horrible things that they have done. I work with organizations that deal with children and teens that have been bullied. I have no desire to see that onscreen. 

I agree that an episode or two without Paige and her troubles would be welcome. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

56 minutes ago, attica said:

7 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

 I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Every person has a right to be picky, regardless of how conventionally attractive (physically or socially) they are or aren't. Good on Deirdre.

I know, right?  It's almost as if women are people instead of objects and have value beyond whether they are nice to look at.  

When Elizabeth basically said Deidre should be desperate for male attention because she's 45 and has a boring job, I was like, oof. Of course, that was the mistake that Philip made too, until he figured it out. I think Deidre has a very distinct personality, is happy in her life and knows what she wants. She was very assertive on the phone to "Gus" when she was breaking up with him.  If she doesn't want the same type of relationship that she thinks Gus wants, why shouldn't she break up with him? Plus, she is 45. Why waste the time?  I do like that Philip is good enough at his job to be able to get her back.  It reminded me of when Elizabeth told Philip to tell Martha that Philip was going to meet her later when they were getting Martha out of the country. Elizabeth thought Martha needed false hope in order to go through with it but Philip knew Martha better than that.

Tuan is cruel.  Of course, Elizabeth and Philip are going along with it.  Are they hoping that just the mother and son are going to go back to Russia? Like they like it better there and this will just be her excuse to go back and also possibly to continue her affair? I don't see how the whole family would uproot their lives over bullying. Especially when he could go to another school, like Philip said. I hope none of the bullying ends up happening but it remains to be seen, I guess.

Edited April 26, 2017 by DoubleUTeeEff
extra spaces

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't want Pasha systematically bullied.

Ugh, I really hated that. Mess with the adults, fine; but a homesick kid? So gross and cruel.

9 hours ago, jjj said:

"Deirdre broke up with me."  It is awful how much I laughed at him blurting that out.  And it was totally his delivery. 

I could not stop laughing. And word that she can be as "picky" as she likes, regardless of her looks or "age and place in life."

I really like this season. I don't mind that we're getting more character. We're seeing the toll all the spy stuff is taking on Philip and Elizabeth, and Gabriel's departure—and the loss of his support—just rubs it in. They'll never have the same relationship with Claudia.

Edited April 26, 2017 by dubbel zout

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

It reminded me of when Elizabeth told Philip to tell Martha that Philip was going to meet her later when they were getting Martha out of the country.  Elizabeth thought Martha needed false hope in order to go through with it but Philip knew Martha better than that.

Or even better, I remembered the time when Philip was saying how Martha wanted to have kids and Elizabeth was like "Well, tell her no! Who wears the pants in that family!" and Philip was trying to explain that no, Martha was a human being who had her own strong personality and things that were important to her. She wasn't just a pathetic woman who waited for Philip to tell her what she wanted.

And that's in large part why Martha was devoted to Clark.

Elizabeth hasn't ever completely lost her contempt for Americans, even if she makes allowances for people she sees as sharing some of her own better qualities (like Betty's backstory and Ben). "There's a weakness in the people here--I can feel it" was the first thing she claimed to sense about the country. 

[SunnyBeBe]

It seems to me that the Center wants P & E to get the super duper, wonderful wheat secret, so they don't have to pay for it.  Plus, what if the US government buys the secret and holds on to it?  I know, it's far fetched, but, there are theories that companies or governments have great cures for diseases, but, they hold them, because it's politically or financially advantageous for them to do so.  I suppose that Russia wasn't willing to take the chance that America or this private company wouldn't share that wonderful wheat secret with the rest of the world.  Plus, if they have it, they won't have to pay for it and they might use it for their own purposes too.  

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, ChromaKelly said:

I felt like there was much more going on in this episode than the last one. Someone last week mentioned the hushed tones of the dialogue and now I really notice it, especially regarding Elizabeth.

I've noticed this, too-she's getting quieter and quieter. Seems like a reflection of both her simmering displeasure with the work and how hard it is for her to open herself up.

52 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Tuan is cruel.  Of course, Elizabeth and Philip are going along with it.  Are they hoping that just the mother and son are going to go back to Russia? Like they like it better there and this will just be her excuse to go back and also possibly to continue her affair? I don't see how the whole family would uproot their lives over bullying. Especially when he could go to another school, like Philip said. I hope none of the bullying ends up happening but it remains to be seen, I guess.

What I don't get about this plan is that it's just so imprecise. They're relying on three different people reacting in particular ways that will cascade into the result they want. Seems pretty unlikely.

[dubbel zout]

The other amusing exchange was when Elizabeth said she'd have liked to have been a doctor if she hadn't been a spy, and Paige told her her bedside manner was nonexistent. Hee. I liked that Elizabeth was self-aware enough to know that was true.

[Razzberry]

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

Was a little disappointed that Diedre reinstated Phillip so quickly, even though as little more than a human vibrator.  Hopefully his main problem remains, in that she's not interested in pillow talk or impressing him.