S04.E17: Identity and Change

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I think Simmons assumed that Fitz wouldn't shoot Agnes because Coulson had overcome his brainwashing.  Coulson's an exceptional guy, but still if he could do it, why can't Fitz?  Maybe the prior tinkering with his mind (Tahiti's a magical place) had something to do with it.  He had a notebook full of that "It's a magical place" phrase written over and over.  It must have had some sort of effect on him.

I thought Coulson mentioned that the blue soap that everyone is required to use has some kind of brainwashing effect.  That's why Coulson makes his own soap.  Fitz apparently uses the blue soap.

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do like the idea that this could be a way to bring "good" Ward to the show somehow. Granted, it would be supremely awkward but he genuinely seems to be a nice guy here. If the others could start to see him as a brand new person that they don`t really know, I think they could come so far as to offer him a clean slate.     

I think that'd be great.  I would love to see Grant Ward return.  Bring him back as a good agent.  In season 1, he was the straight laced tough guy agent.  I remember when Jemma and Skye were pretending to be him and mocking him behind his back with "I'm Agent Grant Ward, I just jumped out of an airplane with no parachute" without knowing that he had heard them, and then at the end, he corrected them with the way he would say it.  Funny.   A return to the Season 1 Ward would be welcomed by me.  The team needs more field agents than just Daisy, Coulson and May.

[CaptainTightpants]

This episode was BANNANAS! 

I kind of loved the big red-lit scene where Aida and  evilFitz are getting off the plane. Clearly Aida skipped right over being Darth Vader and went full-on Palpatine. 

Also, where roboFitz was scary, evilFitz is terrifying! I found the final scene with him about to torture Daisy to be absolutely chilling. Iain is killing it right now. However, I do agree with other posters that realFitz is going to be carrying a load of guilt and horror around with him when he finally wakes up. I don't think any of this is his fault, but he is going to remember enjoying the torture and killing of other people. That's got to screw with your head. I hope Sheild has managed to replace Andrew with another good therapist, because they are all going to need to book some block sessions. 

I'm glad that Radcliffe is finally facing some actual personal consequences of his massive ego driven screwup! This entire thing is 100% his doing. And he wasn't even trying to help anyone before Simmons and company showed up. He is just happily playing croquet on the bloody lawn! And he admits to some admiration for how Aida managed to subvert the program. Frankly he deserves to be tortured by his own monster. 

I hope Mack remembers his actions when he wakes up too. The past 2 seasons he has been staggeringly self-righteous to other team members. Now that he has experienced a moral compromise himself, I'm hoping he eases up a bit on being an ass. OTOH, Hope is a cute as a button, so he is for sure going to need to join the therapy sessions when it all goes away. 

I think that Mace's great regret may be that he wasn't inhuman. I really thought the show was going to have him exposed to Terrigen on the submarine, after he was captured and then stupid Radcliffe made a synthetic batch. And we were going to find out that he really was an inhuman after all, the irony! But this is pretty awesome too! Now he can be the inhuman hero that he seemingly always wanted to be. 

I'm still really enjoying goodWard. It is going to be a blow when this arc ends and we lose him again. ): Hopefully he at least gets to go on a glorious rampage at the Triskelion to get Daisy out. 

Poor, poor Simmons. She looked absolutely destroyed when evilFitz pulled the trigger! I hope Mace doesn't yell at her too hard. 

As an aside though, goodWard and conspiracyCoulson were shooting like stormtroopers. They both had clean shots at Aida and evilFitz! Instead they were shooting all the Hydra stooges. 

Thank god for conspiracyCoulson in this episode! He pretty much supplied the only moments of levity for the entire show. "What kind of a monster flies around in a plane that size?", will now and forever be a favourite line of mine!

I really loved the beginning of this season. I thought the Ghost Rider arc was awesome. But this arc has brought the show up to a whole new level! If i had more willpower, I would wait till the end of the season and binge watch the thing in one sitting. Alas I do not, so I'm giving myself heartburn watching it on the weekly schedule! ?

[Tiger]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to me. And I don`t see it as a true indictment of his character. May is a monster in the Framework as well. I don`t see how not killing this girl in Bahrain would have turned her into a sadistic Hydra thug. One doesn`t follow logically from the other. 

It seems Aida really likes Fitz, I bet she did something extra to twist him up. And she appears to understand the emotional concept of cruelty quite well. She was practically gloating when Fitz shot Agnes. 

I bet this will be used to create Fitz/Simmons angst but the real Fitz is the guy who was the first person hiding Daisy`s inhuman secret, he was the one who suffered brain damage to save Simmons. While he did make mistakes in the real world, none of them were made out of malice. It would strike me as so unfair if he were judged for something that happened while he was unconsious and plugged into some super-dark Holodeck simulation.  

 

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Why does it ALWAYS have to be poor Fitz? I know that everyone on the show has been through a lot of shit, but it seems like they are just always looking for new ways to emotionally and physically shatter the poor guy. And when its not him, its Simmons. I really do hope they can come back from this, but it would probably take a lot of time to move on from seeing the man you love shooting an innocent woman in cold blood. She might know, intellectually, that this isn't the real Fitz and the actions of The Doctor aren't his fault, but subcountiously, I can see it really impacting her feelings towards him. The person who I'm sure will have the hardest time forgiving Fitz is poor Fitz. This is certainly going to be horribly traumatic for him when he gets back to normal. Because his brain damage period just wasn't awful enough.

I don't at all blame Fitz for any of The Doctors actions, and I'm going to be really pissed off is the show acts like this is the "real" Fitz, who is totally evil without Simmons or something. Fitz might have his flaws, but he's a good person who would be horrified by this world and his part in it. I think Aida did more to him then just changing one thing about his life. Aida seems to really like (have a crush on?) Fitz, so she reprogrammed him to be her protector/boyfriend who is not only evil, but utterly devoted to her. Aida, you suck. I don't even care how on point your evil fashion game is!

Poor Mack. Seeing him being forced to say "Hail Hydra" is just gross. His life is rather sad here, but at least he has Hope, who seems like a really cool kid. I can see him being tempted to staying here to be with her, once Madam Hydra is defeated.

It makes me wonder what they are going to do when everyone inevitably gets the chance to escape with Good Ward and Hope. I don't think they'll want to leave them behind to be erased when the program is defeated, but what else can they do? Make this world less evil, and leave them there?

Really enjoying this arc so far, very classic Marvel.
 

For me it's not that Fitz should be responsible for what Framework!Fitz did, it's that I can't see Fitz or Simmons getting past the memories of it.  

[cali1981]

Up until last last night, I was in a very distinct minority here thinking that the whole Android/Framework story lines were dragging on endlessly and had taken the show down unfortunate paths.  Last night's show, however while not completely changing my mind, did steer me back towards enjoying the series again.  Clark Gregg was very funny playing against everything that the real Phil Coulson is and Ian De Caestecker was more than properly vicious as Hydra Leopold.  I wonder how Ward is gonna feel or react when he realizes that he isn't real and has nothing to go back to when the Framework is ultimately destroyed.

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, cali1981 said:

 I wonder how Ward is gonna feel or react when he realizes that he isn't real and has nothing to go back to when the Framework is ultimately destroyed.

Redemption arc...Skye and Simmons forgive him...He releases the OS agnostic Independence Day Virus from inside the Framework so they can escape

[paigow]

4 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Noticed that too.  If the shows were not on competing networks I would have thought it was a shout-out.  Unless Ogigya has a broader meaning?

In Homer's Odyssey, Calypso detained Odysseus on Ogygia for 7 years and kept him from returning to his home of Ithaca,

 

[HawaiiTVGuy]

8 minutes ago, paigow said:

4 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Noticed that too.  If the shows were not on competing networks I would have thought it was a shout-out.  Unless Ogigya has a broader meaning?

In Homer's Odyssey, Calypso detained Odysseus on Ogygia for 7 years and kept him from returning to his home of Ithaca,

 

Ahh...then that totally makes sense for both shows.

[Sandman]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My guess is Aida "fixed" some things to her liking. 

That's my thought, too. I think the world has been made over, extensively and continuously, to empower Madame Yes -- er, Hydra. I don't think it's coincidence that the characters who represent the biggest threat to AIDA are the most radically changed, like Fitz, May, and Coulson, imprisoned, like Radcliffe, or eliminated entirely, like Simmons.

[CaptainTightpants]

I had a random thought. Does anyone else remember when realFitz saves the decapitated Aida head from when she tried to steal the darkhold out of Sheild? 

I'm wondering if they will have to plug the head of goodAida into the framework to counteract evilAida's machinations. I mean, they have to have saved the head for some reason plot-wise. 

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I like Hope. Is it too much to ask for the actress to get big glasses and be cast as Lunella Lafayette in the Inhumans series? I'd totally understand if the show couldn't give her Devil Dinosaur due to budget concerns. She can do precocious and smart so well.

Don't be silly -- she won't be cast.  #BlackWomenAreScaryEvenGirls which is why you only see one or two in all the genre shows.  How many black women (Ruth Negga doesn't count) have had more than one episode on this show?

 

11 hours ago, Tarasme said:

I'm ready for AIDA to be throat punched immediately. AAAAAAAIDA. AIDA. AIDA AIDA AIDA. How dare you use your angst and the giant ARTIFICIAL chip on your shoulder to ruin the world. Selfish brat. Pbbbtttzzs.

2 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

As an aside though, goodWard and conspiracyCoulson were shooting like stormtroopers. They both had clean shots at Aida and evilFitz! Instead they were shooting all the Hydra stooges.

What would happen to the Framework if they killed Aida (yes, AIDA!) in  it?  I was hoping someone would aim for her!

10 hours ago, paigow said:

Is it impossible for a character to leave the Framework if the physical body is dead? Radcliffe thinks so....Therefore, "Framework!Ward" is not going anywhere.....

If it's truly an AI simulation then no.  If, as Tiger suggested, it's a different dimension, then possibly.

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Why does it ALWAYS have to be poor Fitz? I know that everyone on the show has been through a lot of shit, but it seems like they are just always looking for new ways to emotionally and physically shatter the poor guy.

Did you see Daisy in the last shot?  I think Fitz is having a better day today...

[Vyk]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think that'd be great.  I would love to see Grant Ward return.

I do not and would not.  He's dead.  He's gone.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  Love Brett.  Loved his run as Ward when he was evil.  But his arc is over.  Time to move on.

Man.  What does Aida have against Agnes?  That smirk she had when Fitz went through with killing her was something else, to say the least.  She was more than just a little pleased that he'd done it.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Vyk

[JenMcSnark]

9 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

I think the regrets that AIDA erased from our cast were:

May: failing to save the little girl overseas

Fitz: growing up without his father, who walked out on him and his mother when he was a child.

Mac: losing Hope

Coulson: not having a "normal", quiet life as a teacher, without all the fighting and shooting

Dr. Radcliffe: giving up Agnes

AIDA: not being a "real" woman and having Fitz to herself

Mace: don't know yet 

The most chilling part of last night's episode wasn't anything we saw, but what we heard, when Daisy was locked up in the Hydra cell.  You could hear Dr. Radcliffe in the next cell screaming "No, no, put it back, PUT IT BACK!"  He had all those cybernetic appliances like an eye installed on himself.  Do you think Fitz was yanking these things out of him and purposely hurting him by doing it?  That creeps me out, to be honest.

I think Mace might be the most obvious.  He expressed regret that he wasn't truly the hero that the world thought of him.  That's why he was so desperate to keep taking the juice that made him "inhuman".  

So I do think he is Inhuman in the Framework.  But even if not, he's the leader of the even more heroic Resistance. 

[Enigma X]

4 minutes ago, Vyk said:

I do not and would not.  He's dead.  He's gone.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  Love Brett.  Loved his run as Ward when he was evil.  But his arc is over.  Time to move on.

Man.  What does Aida have against Agnes?  That smirk she had when Fitz went through with killing her was something else, to say the least.  She was more than just a little pleased that he'd done it.

Thank you.  I still hate Grant Ward. 

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, Vyk said:

I do not and would not.  He's dead.  He's gone.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  Love Brett.  Loved his run as Ward when he was evil.  But his arc is over.  Time to move on.

Man.  What does Aida have against Agnes?  That smirk she had when Fitz went through with killing her was something else, to say the least.  She was more than just a little pleased that he'd done it.

It is that she wasn't unique but rather a model made for Dr Radcliffe's fantasy before the Darkhold built Framework came about. Notice how she is going on about being artificial and used. I propose that off screen Dr Radcliffe did use her for the first use of human form robots in most shows from a serious Humans down, as his personal sex toy before locking her in the closet when Fitz came to visit.

[MisterGlass]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Some larger things must have changed, though, to end up with the current Hydra police state set-up. I can`t buy that this just arose from eliminating a point of regret for the main characters, let alone just May`s. They are the protagonists of the show and I get that they are important but this seems too extreme. My guess is Aida "fixed" some things to her liking. 

I think the two biggest questions in Hydra winning are where is Steve Rogers and where is Nick Fury.  If Nick Fury died during the timing of Captain America The Winter Soldier, then he would not have been there to defeat evil Robert Redford.  If Captain America wasn't there, then maybe they couldn't stop the evil helicarriers from remotely killing everyone on their list (Tony Stark, Steven Strange, etc.)  If Captain America is still in the ice right now, it could make sense.  If somehow Coulson was directly involved in the recovery of his hero, then maybe Cap wasn't found if Coulson wasn't in SHIELD.  Everything up until The Avengers would happen in essentially the same way, but would diverge from there.

[Teitr Styrr]

I think since Aida (don't call her that) is a real girl now, she doesn't want the constant reminder that she really isnt', which was why she was gloating when poor Agnes got shot. I have to keep in mind that this isn't really Aida's fault. This is the Darkhold. It changed her when she used it to save Fitz and uh, was it Coulson? Yeah, I think Coulson.

I liked original flavor Aida quite a bit, but I guess this is what you get when you mix tech and magic. Evil robots. 

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Vyk said:

I do not and would not.  He's dead.  He's gone.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  Love Brett.  Loved his run as Ward when he was evil.  But his arc is over.  Time to move on.

Man.  What does Aida have against Agnes?  That smirk she had when Fitz went through with killing her was something else, to say the least.  She was more than just a little pleased that he'd done it.

 

When Ward was alive I loved him as the show's main villain. Now that the writers decided to kill him off, I just want him to stay dead. I half-heartedly want an LMD Ward and/or a Ghost Ward possessing Robbie, but in all honestly, I think I would rather have Ward stay dead. I am not really liking this simulation Ward only because the writers' are trying to squeeze Ward into everything even when they decided that they wanted him dead. 

[TVSpectator]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Some larger things must have changed, though, to end up with the current Hydra police state set-up. I can`t buy that this just arose from eliminating a point of regret for the main characters, let alone just May`s. They are the protagonists of the show and I get that they are important but this seems too extreme. My guess is Aida "fixed" some things to her liking. 

I enjoyed the episodes and I enjoy the storyline overall but I don`t see it as a true "what if" world that indicates what would have happened had the characters made different choices but more an "anything goes" crazyness. 

I do like the idea that this could be a way to bring "good" Ward to the show somehow. Granted, it would be supremely awkward but he genuinely seems to be a nice guy here. If the others could start to see him as a brand new person that they don`t really know, I think they could come so far as to offer him a clean slate.     

 

Yeah, I also can't really buy into the current Hydra police state. I mean where is Cap, where is Iron Man, where is Fury, where is Black Widow, Hawkeye, etc....? Overall, I think that AIDA Madame Hydra just rewrote everything until she got something that she liked the best and that the resistance was another addition because of Mace's regret as well. Mace wanted to be some kind of superhero and now he got his wish. Part of me thinks that is why Hydra took over was because Madame Hydra wanted to fulfill Mace's regret but couldn't do it in a way that wouldn't allow her to just write him as a vigilante stopping street crime. No, it had to be something bigger because he was seen in the public as a superhero so she could've just wanted him to live up to that image. Maybe that is why Hydra is this defacto police state? She had to give Mace something big and that Fitz, her, and May are playing the bad guy roles because she felt that they would never actually leave SHIELD/government in a way that Coulson and Mack wanted to.  As with the Inhumans, that could be just her way of tying everything together. Although, I am surprised that she wrote in Ward into this world. 

 

Come to think about I am starting to doubt that this is an actual simulation but maybe an another universe/dimension.

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I like Hope. Is it too much to ask for the actress to get big glasses and be cast as Lunella Lafayette in the Inhumans series?

The actress is Jordan Rivera. 
I saw a cast list for the main characters on Inhumans and there was a black man and an Asian man, but no black women.  I asked why not and got some dumb-ass guff about how they're all related.  They're related enough so no black women can be part of the "family" but a black man and an Asian man (and a Hawaiian actress) can be.  It's called "misogynoir".

[Lady Calypso]

11 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

When Ward was alive I loved him as the show's main villain. Now that the writers decided to kill him off, I just want him to stay dead. I half-heartedly want an LMD Ward and/or a Ghost Ward possessing Robbie, but in all honestly, I think I would rather have Ward stay dead. I am not really liking this simulation Ward only because the writers' are trying to squeeze Ward into everything even when they decided that they wanted him dead. 

Agreed. They're trying to do their own What If storyline with Grant Ward, especially since him and Skye were a popular ship at the time of Turn, Turn, Turn back in season 1. I am not going to be surprised if there's a cliffhanger at the end of the season that has good LMD Ward showing up. I think they're trying to set it up so people tune in to a possible season 5 (it's all up in the air whether or not they get renewed). I mean, I'm not positive that's what they're doing, but why else are they having a good Ward suddenly show up and interact with everyone while getting old shippers to possibly come back? 

That being said, I like this good guy Grant Ward but I only want him for this arc. Let Brett Dalton show off his acting chops here and be done with it. He's actually gotten to be a much better actor than early season 1, at least. 

[Texasmom1970]

I think some of my favorites was Colson geeking out. And his his excited reactions of wow and cool. To the handcuffs and the situation!

[rmontro]

23 hours ago, blackwing said:

I thought Coulson mentioned that the blue soap that everyone is required to use has some kind of brainwashing effect.  That's why Coulson makes his own soap.  Fitz apparently uses the blue soap.

I got the impression that the blue soap idea was actually some genuine paranoia on Coulson's part, probably the result of some of his inner conflict caused by the Framework.  He seemed to think so by episode's end anyway.  But anything is possible.

I can understand people wanting Ward to stay dead.  But the source material here is comic books, and the thing about comic books is characters rarely stay dead.  There can usually be found some sort of device to bring them back.  Shoot, even Spock returned after dying in Star Trek II.

[hello]

Quote

I got the impression that the blue soap idea was actually some genuine paranoia on Coulson's part

The Kree blood that brought Coulson back to life was blue. I think the fact he had his brain rebuilt using blue Kree blood (with the Tahiti memories falsely implanted) is why he's able to overcome the Framework. His brain's been overwritten once already with project TAHITI.

And remember when Raina put Coulson in that brain scanner device to help him unlock his true memories? Coulson's brain has got plenty of experience overcoming this sort of mind wipe stuff and isn't putting up with that shit anymore.

I think he's trying to process his memories of the blue Kree blood, like they were a dream or something. The Kree blood "cleaned" away his memories for a while. So his brain finds the next best thing to make sense of it by comparing it to blue liquid soap.

[TVSpectator]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Agreed. They're trying to do their own What If storyline with Grant Ward, especially since him and Skye were a popular ship at the time of Turn, Turn, Turn back in season 1. I am not going to be surprised if there's a cliffhanger at the end of the season that has good LMD Ward showing up. I think they're trying to set it up so people tune in to a possible season 5 (it's all up in the air whether or not they get renewed). I mean, I'm not positive that's what they're doing, but why else are they having a good Ward suddenly show up and interact with everyone while getting old shippers to possibly come back? 

That being said, I like this good guy Grant Ward but I only want him for this arc. Let Brett Dalton show off his acting chops here and be done with it. He's actually gotten to be a much better actor than early season 1, at least. 

 

Well, I do agree with you that they probably are trying to win over the old SkyeWard shippers (and hell, it's like they are trying to win over all shippers by pairing not only Fitz and Simmons together and also now, Coulson and May) I still think that the reason why they brought Ward back was because they like Brent Dalton. Which I guess is great that they really like this actor but they went through the whole planning, writing, filming, and editing of Ward dying. I could handle Hive, just long enough for the show to end its season, and that arc, but now, it just feels, to me, gratuitous to bring him back. I really don't need to see Ward in a simulation and I wonder why and who the hell put him in there in the first place? I mean if this was an actual alternate universe/alternate timeline then I can see why he would at least exist but who the hell put Ward inside the Framework?

[AKA...CJ86]

I love Ward... as mentioned... and I know the show's going to twist that dagger in my heart when Ward learns he's not real... and/or dies... please have a Ward LMD.... please... Don't care for or ship Daisy-Skye/Ward.... I just need my Ward fix. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by CyberJawa1986
Edits and Stuff, Yo!Edits and Stuff, Yo!

[xqueenfrostine]

On 4/11/2017 at 10:37 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Can't believe I feel bad for Radcliffe, but I kind of do.  For what it's worth, I think he was sincere about wanting the Framework to do good. Still doesn't make up for all the problems and deaths he caused, but I think his intentions were right?

I don't think Radcliffe as a character can be viewed through a normal lens of good and evil.  He's a purely neutral character.   When he says he wanted to do "good" with the framework, I expect he means it in the same way he thought all of his other weird transhumanist work was for the good of humanity.   He's still the same guy who was intrigued by Hive's plan to create a world full of Inhumans, and was fully willing to go along with it until he realized that Hive was willing to settle turning humanity into primitive beings so long as they were technically inhuman.

On 4/12/2017 at 11:58 AM, Gregg247 said:

I think the regrets that AIDA erased from our cast were:

May: failing to save the little girl overseas

Fitz: growing up without his father, who walked out on him and his mother when he was a child.

 

 

I'd edit these two and say Melinda's regret is that she didn't spare the girl's life, not that she didn't save her.  After all, there was nothing to save her from, Katya was the one everyone else needed to be rescued from.  Now we see the framework as a world in which May is living with the horror of what might have happened had she not pulled the trigger and instead let Katy's continue to live and roam free in the world.

As for Fitz, I don't think his regret is just not having grown up with his father, I suspect his regret is that his father wasn't/isn't proud of him. Jemma mentioned earlier this season that Fitz was verbally abused as a child and that before his dad left, he was always telling Fitz that he wasn't smart enough and that he was worthless. I wouldn't be surprised if part of Fitz believes that if he could have been the sort of son that his dad would have wanted him to be, that he wouldn't have left.   Maybe that means the Fitz of the framework is the kind of man that Fitz imagined his father would have loved and been proud of.  We already know (thanks to Radcliffe, who knew Fitz's dad) that he was a shady sort of scientist who was willing to work with bad people.  I could see a son a guy like that would be proud of working for Hydra.

 

Quote

Yeah, I also can't really buy into the current Hydra police state. I mean where is Cap, where is Iron Man, where is Fury, where is Black Widow, Hawkeye, etc....?

Maybe they are in the framework, but some are on the side of Hydra while the others are in hiding/prison/dead.  Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a lot of parallels between the storyline within the Framework with the Civil War storyline in the comics.  The Cambridge Incident seems to be a Agents of SHIELD analog for the Stamford Incident, and the Inhumans seem to be standing in for superheroes in general (who also had to register or face imprisonment).  Mace may even be our Captain America stand in.  The comic Civil War storyline had Team Ironman going down a much darker path (including collaborating with Marvel supervillains like Norman Osborne) than we saw in the MCU Civil War, so I find it a little easier to imagine the Framework becoming a much darker world due to the butterfly effect from first May, then the others, eliminating their one regret. I don't doubt Aida's pleased with the way things went down as her grudge against SHIELD is genuine, but I don't think she had to micromanage every little detail in order to bring about the current reality within the framework.

Edited April 14, 2017 by xqueenfrostine

[romantic idiot]

On April 12, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Some great, humorous moments from Coulson, but I also loved Simmons' eye roll when Ward was professing his love for the woman he thinks is Skye. Just hilarious, knowing the history with his character. I might have also had a little eye roll, but I am very entertained by Ward. His confused look when Daisy made the "soap" comment at Hydra was hilarious. 

I don't get why she is suspicious of him though. He is a computer program after all.

On April 12, 2017 at 6:23 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Oh no, I agree with you. Ultimately, the Fitz that eventually gets awakened shouldn't be held accountable for the brainwashing that Aida has done to him. She has engineered the Framework to the point where she has created her own paradise, which includes Fitz being her protector of sorts. He shouldn't, but it doesn't mean that he won't feel guilt and remorse over what he's done because at the end of the day, he still did it to a degree; somewhere deep down in the programming, he's still there. Much like May might feel her own guilt for what she's done in the Framework. It's not purely logical, but it'll impact them as characters for sure. Simmons might forgive him completely because she knows he isn't him, but she has also just seen the man that she loves murder someone in cold blood. That image, no matter how much she knows it isn't real, is harder to get out of her head. It'll be something that will subconsciously affect their relationship for a time. 

I think this will be the true test of how Whedon this show is.

[Raja]

33 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

I don't get why she is suspicious of him though. He is a computer program after all.

I think this will be the true test of how Whedon this show is.

Look at how Daisy is reacting though, leaving the mission to save an Inhuman and her first instinct was to shock blast Ward. The simulation was real enough to make her move on instinct. Meanwhile Simmons is debating with the non person characters in the simulation trying to tell them that you are not human and not getting anywhere either.

As for Fitz, some are saying brainwashing. My take is that something in the past was tweaked for the SHIELD Agents that Aida grabbed and The Doctor was inside of him. Just as I have thought since The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn, that since Hydra and SHIELD recruited the same people they had the same tendencies. In her way Victoria Hand though loyal to SHIELD was looking as ruthless as Garrett and Ward. If you look at this as an extension of Tony Stark's self therapy at the beginning of Civil War then Fitz could be as damaged by this experience as he was from being oxygen deprived at the bottom of the ocean. Because he, along with Jemma and Daisy knows The Doctor is, was always inside of him.

[tessaray]

12 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Well, I do agree with you that they probably are trying to win over the old SkyeWard shippers (and hell, it's like they are trying to win over all shippers by pairing not only Fitz and Simmons together and also now, Coulson and May) I still think that the reason why they brought Ward back was because they like Brent Dalton. Which I guess is great that they really like this actor but they went through the whole planning, writing, filming, and editing of Ward dying. I could handle Hive, just long enough for the show to end its season, and that arc, but now, it just feels, to me, gratuitous to bring him back. I really don't need to see Ward in a simulation and I wonder why and who the hell put him in there in the first place? I mean if this was an actual alternate universe/alternate timeline then I can see why he would at least exist but who the hell put Ward inside the Framework?

May was the first one in the Framework so if they scanned her brain, a lot of her memories would have Ward in them, since he was part of the team for a long time. And May/Ward did have that little coworkers with benefits thing going on in Season 1.  So it seems okay to me that he be there.  I do want him to stay put though. An LMD Ward would just be sad.

I'm loving this season but the pacing has always been a weak point. It would often drag until the planned intersection with the movies happened.  I wish AoS could exist in its own universe but know that the connection with the movies saved it too, so there's that...      

My last thought it is that I'm glad that AoS is on the networks. I probably couldn't handle it if it were on HBO.  

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, hello said:

I think he's trying to process his memories of the blue Kree blood, like they were a dream or something. The Kree blood "cleaned" away his memories for a while. So his brain finds the next best thing to make sense of it by comparing it to blue liquid soap.

Wow, I never would have made that connection.  In fact, I didn't even remember that Kree blood was blue.  Good theory, I think you're on to something.

[Cranberry]

I have not enjoyed the show this much in literally years. Every single aspect of this storyline is working for me (yes, even Ward, who I usually dislike). When Fitz was pointing the gun at Agnes, I was torn between wanting him to shoot her and wanting him to remember who he was, because the story would be interesting and entertaining either way. And I caught on just a moment before Daisy did that Mack was just parroting information, which I also thought was a great idea (I like Mack going to SHIELD of his own volition, even though he doesn't remember his real life). Finally, any story that puts Jemma Simmons front and center really works for me, because I think she's one of the stronger characters (and Henstridge one of the stronger actors) on the show. I'm so excited for the rest of the season. 

[Tiger]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:10 AM, Raja said:

Look at how Daisy is reacting though, leaving the mission to save an Inhuman and her first instinct was to shock blast Ward. The simulation was real enough to make her move on instinct. Meanwhile Simmons is debating with the non person characters in the simulation trying to tell them that you are not human and not getting anywhere either.

As for Fitz, some are saying brainwashing. My take is that something in the past was tweaked for the SHIELD Agents that Aida grabbed and The Doctor was inside of him. Just as I have thought since The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn, that since Hydra and SHIELD recruited the same people they had the same tendencies. In her way Victoria Hand though loyal to SHIELD was looking as ruthless as Garrett and Ward. If you look at this as an extension of Tony Stark's self therapy at the beginning of Civil War then Fitz could be as damaged by this experience as he was from being oxygen deprived at the bottom of the ocean. Because he, along with Jemma and Daisy knows The Doctor is, was always inside of him.

I've been thinking way more about this show, arc, and particular point than I really should.  I don-t think Aida has brainwashed anyone, rather she changed their courses in life and those courses brought personalities traits that have always been there to the surface. 

It's a bit of a 'sliding doors' situation where a series of events, relatively innocuous on their own, eventually lead to a person being good or evil.. 

With Ward, I think his core chararistic is 'traitor' so him being with Shield and trying to subvert Hydra is simply a matter of Shield being the underground org now.  With Fitz I think the combination of his father being around, no Jemma, the inhumans being posited as a threat the world have exposed a ruthless darkness thats always been there.  

With May, I think it comes down to she blames herself for the Cambridge Incident and is only doing what she believes she has to to keep the world safe.  

I also think it's possible that she is aware that she is in the Framework and is playing along until she can figure out how to defeat Aida, resxue everyone, and get out.

[navelgazer]

I missed Ward in all of his incarnations, so I was pleased to see goodWard again.  And I'm one of those shippers who loved him and Skye together.  I have never quite been able to accept Daisy.  I liked the outsider/hacker/criminal.  I miss that part of her character.  She dressed in pretty pink dresses and conned billionaires on their island resorts.  

[TVSpectator]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:10 AM, Raja said:

Look at how Daisy is reacting though, leaving the mission to save an Inhuman and her first instinct was to shock blast Ward. The simulation was real enough to make her move on instinct. Meanwhile Simmons is debating with the non person characters in the simulation trying to tell them that you are not human and not getting anywhere either.

As for Fitz, some are saying brainwashing. My take is that something in the past was tweaked for the SHIELD Agents that Aida grabbed and The Doctor was inside of him. Just as I have thought since The Winter Soldier and Turn, Turn, Turn, that since Hydra and SHIELD recruited the same people they had the same tendencies. In her way Victoria Hand though loyal to SHIELD was looking as ruthless as Garrett and Ward. If you look at this as an extension of Tony Stark's self therapy at the beginning of Civil War then Fitz could be as damaged by this experience as he was from being oxygen deprived at the bottom of the ocean. Because he, along with Jemma and Daisy knows The Doctor is, was always inside of him.

 

 

 

6

My takeaway from CA: WS was that all of SHIELD has lost its way. Not only the fact that Hydra was inside SHIELD but also that those not connected to Hydra were just as soulless/ruthless as their Hydra counterparts- and that would also include May, Fitz, Simmons, Victoria Hand, Fury, and Coulson. Remember it was Director Fury that was the one who ordered Project Insight in the first place and was willing to go ahead with the idea of capturing and detaining people without warrants. And it was Captain America who was the first one to say, "that's pretty mess up- don't do it."  That is my take away from the Winder Solider and that was why SHIELD could no longer stand. Even once Hydra was defeated/eradicated from SHIELD the underline message was that SHIELD has become rotten and that they needed to find their way back to the ideas of Peggy Carter. And AoS in my opinion still loves to show us that soulless/ruthlessness that existed prior to the Winter Solider is still there and hasn't been reworked into something that Captain America and/or Peggy Carter would be proud of. Also, that I have been finding the main characters to be assholes (and I have been saying this on Reddit) for a long time and that the whole idea of them not trusting Mace is really turning out to be the case of them just being their asshole-ish selves and not something like, "well their spy instincts/knowledge is telling them to not trust the guy". 

Edited April 15, 2017 by TVSpectator
Touching up on the grammar

[Raja]

What if a scene left on the editing room floor was Daisy in the elevator asking "Before we get started is there anyone who wants to get off? ".

Not even Weedon could figure out how she won that fight without a shield or Super Soldier serum.

[SnoGirl]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

What if a scene left on the editing room floor was Daisy in the elevator asking "Before we get started is there anyone who wants to get off? ".

Not even Weedon could figure out how she won that fight without a shield or Super Soldier serum.

I was kinda disappointed they didnt go there with the quote, or that we didnt see the fight. Normally there are a couple of great fight scenes and I thought we were going to get another. I think I remember an elevator fight on Iron Fist, and I thought we were going to get another situation were Agents of Shield had a similar fight (Daisy had that one in the lab that was almost all one shot like Matt's hallway fight on Daredevil).

I actually was hoping for more comments out of Coulson's mouth that were Cap's quotes. It would have been funny to hear "suit up" or "I understood that reference" especially since Coulson was such a fanboy AND his brain seems to be sorting the Framework's mess out.

[TVSpectator]

4 hours ago, Tiger said:

I've been thinking way more about this show, arc, and particular point than I really should.  I don-t think Aida has brainwashed anyone, rather she changed their courses in life and those courses brought personalities traits that have always been there to the surface. 

It's a bit of a 'sliding doors' situation where a series of events, relatively innocuous on their own, eventually lead to a person being good or evil.. 

With Ward, I think his core chararistic is 'traitor' so him being with Shield and trying to subvert Hydra is simply a matter of Shield being the underground org now.  With Fitz I think the combination of his father being around, no Jemma, the inhumans being posited as a threat the world have exposed a ruthless darkness thats always been there.  

With May, I think it comes down to she blames herself for the Cambridge Incident and is only doing what she believes she has to to keep the world safe.  

I also think it's possible that she is aware that she is in the Framework and is playing along until she can figure out how to defeat Aida, resxue everyone, and get out.

 

Yeah, I kind of really don't think that AIDA has actually brainwashed anyone. I mean wasn't there a line that Simmons said back in 4X15 that kinds of hinted that Fitz is actually a scumbag at heart or something? Because I have a feeling that all she really did was just tweaked one past regret and not completely changed their personalities (and Coulson in the Framework oddly seems kind of like the Coulson from the movies - in a small way). So, Fitz as a Scottish Dr. Mengele who is more than willingly (and happily) would kill an innocent woman, has to be something there, in the first place to allow himself to go down that route. Personally, I do not buy that it was his father's influence or lack of that lead him to be a decent person nor that Simmons is in his life. That just seems like he is a very weak-willed person and has a very weak conscience if that is the case then. Also if his father is really that bad of an influence was he Dr. Zola or his he like the grandson of Zola or what? How evil his father could really be?

 

On 4/14/2017 at 0:11 PM, tessaray said:

May was the first one in the Framework so if they scanned her brain, a lot of her memories would have Ward in them, since he was part of the team for a long time. And May/Ward did have that little coworkers with benefits thing going on in Season 1.  So it seems okay to me that he be there.  I do want him to stay put though. An LMD Ward would just be sad.

I'm loving this season but the pacing has always been a weak point. It would often drag until the planned intersection with the movies happened.  I wish AoS could exist in its own universe but know that the connection with the movies saved it too, so there's that...      

My last thought it is that I'm glad that AoS is on the networks. I probably couldn't handle it if it were on HBO.  

 

Personally, I always thought that the NPCs (like Ward-if this is actually a simulation and not some other high jinks is going on and they are actually connected to another universe and/or one of those Hell Dimensions that marvel seems to love showing) won't be Ward. I mean, yeah shock value- OMG its Ward!- but with that aside logically why is he in a simulation that Fitz either created and/or designed and why would AIDA who never ever met Ward would place him there with Daisy?

As with the pacing, yes, that is a major issue with the show but also making Daisy (or Skye, or whatever name they are calling her) the main focus has, in my opinion, does hurt the show just as much as the pacing does. I do think that AOS could be better served if it were in its own universe but this is Marvel. When they do something, it's always in the same universe. Like all movies are in the MCU (Earth-199999) while 99% of comic events happen in Earth-616, etc....  So, I would assume that trying to place AoS in another universe is on a very low scale. Although, I still do like to think that AoS is in another universe because their world changing events (like the Inhuman outbreak) has never been shown in the movies, nor hearing about how Hive almost destroyed over half of the Earth, etc.... 

Overall, I really do think that all of the TV shows really do much better when they don't bother with "world changing" events, where countries would hold discussions and people on the news can't stop talking about it; and when AoS did exactly that if felt like they were trying to force the hands of the movies to acknowledge them but it never happen and made AoS a bit worse and disconnected from the movies instead. 

Yeah, I probably can't handle the show if it were on a place like HBO and/or Netflix/Hulu. I really do like it to be just something like Season 2. 

[Sake614]

On 4/12/2017 at 9:12 PM, paigow said:

On 4/12/2017 at 5:10 PM, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Noticed that too.  If the shows were not on competing networks I would have thought it was a shout-out.  Unless Ogigya has a broader meaning?

In Homer's Odyssey, Calypso detained Odysseus on Ogygia for 7 years and kept him from returning to his home of Ithaca,

 

Ooh I didn't know that. But it makes complete sense for Prison Break as it's been 7 years. Let's hope the SHIELD team isn't stuck in framework for 7 years! Lol!

[Sandman]

On 2017-04-12 at 7:52 PM, Tiger said:

For me it's not that Fitz should be responsible for what Framework!Fitz did, it's that I can't see Fitz or Simmons getting past the memories of it.

But to me the problem is that the show is trying to have it both ways -- both explicitly saying that the Framework isn't real (so Fitz isn't responsible, and no real alteration or growth in his character need occur), and (at least potentially) putting both Simmons and Fitz in the Angst-O-Rama Follies, because of what he "did" within the Framework -- except, no, he didn't. AIDA, on the other hand, has killed actual people in the real world.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2017-4-12 at 0:55 PM, VCRTracking said:

As bad as I felt for poor Agnes(she's really had a raw deal, an inoperable brain tumor, her ex building a creepy robot based on her, spending an eternity in a virtual world with him, then being killed without knowing why)

Also how bad does your brain tumor have to be if it is incurable in the MCU. Based on the tech we have seen on this show and in age of Ultron, an artificial brain transplant should have been a viable option even.

 

On 2017-4-15 at 3:22 PM, Raja said:

What if a scene left on the editing room floor was Daisy in the elevator asking "Before we get started is there anyone who wants to get off? ".

Not even Weedon could figure out how she won that fight without a shield or Super Soldier serum.

I kind of liked that scene and am glad they didn't try and show her actually kicking all those guys asses. But they should have at least spent a few more bucks and made it a glass walled elevator.

[beanyk]

On 4/12/2017 at 5:10 PM, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Maybe having a conscience?  Seriously, I am thinking the big regret (if Aida and the Framework are still functioning based on that adage and not Aida's own hard-on for Fitz) is that he knew Simmons and all the heartache it caused him.

I am loving this storyline, it is nice and tense and really has you guessing and love to see how everyone (except Fitz) starts acting as expected.

Noticed that too.  If the shows were not on competing networks I would have thought it was a shout-out.  Unless Ogigya has a broader meaning?

(Months later ...)

Yes, it does. "Ogygia" was the island home of Calypso, who delayed (and, um,  "entertained") Odysseus on his long journey home from Troy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia

ETA: I see that @paigow answered this already. I *swear* I searched before I answered ...

Edited October 2, 2017 by beanyk
Saw that my info was redundant.

[Lobsel Vith]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 9:10 AM, Sandman said:

But to me the problem is that the show is trying to have it both ways -- both explicitly saying that the Framework isn't real (so Fitz isn't responsible, and no real alteration or growth in his character need occur), and (at least potentially) putting both Simmons and Fitz in the Angst-O-Rama Follies, because of what he "did" within the Framework -- except, no, he didn't. AIDA, on the other hand, has killed actual people in the real world.

Angst seems to be the only 'mode' that Fitz and Simmons are allowed to have. Fitz confesses his sudden love for Simmons so that they could spend roughly a year at odds (over her leaving, Daisy, ect.), then she says they have a chance but she gets sucked into another world, and just so happens to get involved with another man there so that when she does return to Earth it's about who Simmons wants to be with romantically (rather than about saving a man's life). I get the feeling that angst awaits Fitz and Simmons in the next season.

I also don't get the decision to make him the Doctor - his specialty lies in building gadgets and the like in the 'real world', so why did AIDA/Ophelia chose him to have a role that's specifically involving genetics (something that would better fit Simmons, or even Raina who could theoretically be alive in this artificial construct)? Aside from bringing back the tired old arguments from SWW fans about poor Ward and how no one loved him enough to change him, of course (instead of focusing on someone who was ridiculously marginalized in Season 2 and deserved some story content - Trip).

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Angst seems to be the only 'mode' that Fitz and Simmons are allowed to have. Fitz confesses his sudden love for Simmons so that they could spend roughly a year at odds (over her leaving, Daisy, ect.), then she says they have a chance but she gets sucked into another world, and just so happens to get involved with another man there so that when she does return to Earth it's about who Simmons wants to be with romantically (rather than about saving a man's life). I get the feeling that angst awaits Fitz and Simmons in the next season.

I also don't get the decision to make him the Doctor - his specialty lies in building gadgets and the like in the 'real world', so why did AIDA/Ophelia chose him to have a role that's specifically involving genetics (something that would better fit Simmons, or even Raina who could theoretically be alive in this artificial construct)? Aside from bringing back the tired old arguments from SWW fans about poor Ward and how no one loved him enough to change him, of course (instead of focusing on someone who was ridiculously marginalized in Season 2 and deserved some story content - Trip).

 

 

I agree him being the "the Doctor" seems off. I mean I guess it could work since they assume that having Papa Fitz around would make Fitz somehow evil, by extension or something (I am actually not sure exactly? Do we know for sure that Papa Fitz wasn't- in the real world- a Hydra member or what? I guess don't get Fitz's story). I guess he was "The Doctor" because he made all of the torturing devices but then he was also studying the Inhumans (or Nuhumans at this point) in the Framework. So he can do bio stuff (and thus making him like every other fictional scientist where he is an expert in every science field). And also I guess this was the show's way of doing a Doctor Who reference or something? Like I could imagine the writers going around saying:

"and yeah, Fitz is evil and is known simply as "The Doctor"!

"that is a really cool idea! I like it because it also references Dr. Who!

"and Fitz can do biology and can do Simmons work because he is a scientist. So, he must be an expert in every scientific field, right?"

[Raja]

The Doctor as in PhD not MD is how I took it

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, Raja said:

The Doctor as in PhD not MD is how I took it

It could be, but I could swear they were trying for a Dr. Who reference (and also I always assumed that The Master was always the evil version of The Doctor). 

[Raja]

25 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

It could be, but I could swear they were trying for a Dr. Who reference (and also I always assumed that The Master was always the evil version of The Doctor). 

They went with Hydra=Nazi in the Framework. He was clearly a Dr Mengele or Dr Whitehall in the MCU even if not a medical doctor. Mixed in with some President Trump sounding slogans.

[TVSpectator]

Just now, Raja said:

They went with Hydra=Nazi in the Framework. He was clearly a Dr Mengele or Dr Whitehall in the MCU even if not a medical doctor. Mixed in with some President Trump sounding slogans.

But still "The Doctor" was more Dr. Who than Dr. Mengele. Although, I totally agree that they were trying to go Hydra=Nazi with political undertones BUT still "The Doctor" had to be a small wink/nod to Dr. Who. 

[Sandman]

13 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I get the feeling that angst awaits Fitz and Simmons in the next season.

This seems to be a, shall we say, strong possibility.

11 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

"and Fitz can do biology and can do Simmons work because he is a scientist. So, he must be an expert in every scientific field, right?"

I could that this conversation (or a close variant of it) must have happened in the writers' room. (I honestly didn't think of Doctor Who in this context -- this version of Fitz is too, well, evil -- to make that connection natural to me.)

[Lobsel Vith]

17 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

And also I guess this was the show's way of doing a Doctor Who reference or something? Like I could imagine the writers going around saying:

"and yeah, Fitz is evil and is known simply as "The Doctor"!

"that is a really cool idea! I like it because it also references Dr. Who!

"and Fitz can do biology and can do Simmons work because he is a scientist. So, he must be an expert in every scientific field, right?"

It's a bit odd how they subverted that with Radcliffe at the end of Season Three, but fell back into it with Fitz in the Framework. In terms of integrity to the continuity of the show, I don't think you would have really lost anything if someone more appropriate was in the role of the Doctor. You could have gotten to the same conclusion that the show did a number of different ways.

5 hours ago, Sandman said:

This seems to be a, shall we say, strong possibility.

I could that this conversation (or a close variant of it) must have happened in the writers' room. (I honestly didn't think of Doctor Who in this context -- this version of Fitz is too, well, evil -- to make that connection natural to me.)

If we didn't already have two and (roughly) a half seasons of angst already with Fitz and Simmons, I wouldn't mind, but it's starting to feel like the writers have no other idea on what to do with these two and simply keep them in an angst-ridden spot as a consequence. And given that the showrunners said that Fitz and Simmons were rushed back together during Season 3B under orders from ABC, it seemed even the network was tired of that angst, so I don't see why they don't do something new with them.

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

It's a bit odd how they subverted that with Radcliffe at the end of Season Three, but fell back into it with Fitz in the Framework. In terms of integrity to the continuity of the show, I don't think you would have really lost anything if someone more appropriate was in the role of the Doctor. You could have gotten to the same conclusion that the show did a number of different ways.

If we didn't already have two and (roughly) a half seasons of angst already with Fitz and Simmons, I wouldn't mind, but it's starting to feel like the writers have no other idea on what to do with these two and simply keep them in an angst-ridden spot as a consequence. And given that the showrunners said that Fitz and Simmons were rushed back together during Season 3B under orders from ABC, it seemed even the network was tired of that angst, so I don't see why they don't do something new with them.

1. The writing is, in my opinion, weird because at one moment they would try to work really hard and do something like introducing an actual genetics working on mutating   transforming other people into Inhumans but then they would do this shit of showing SHIELD's resident engineer doing experiments with DNA samples and/or actual living people. It's like they just don't really care and wanted something that looked cool and/or it sounded cool to them. 

 

Overall it just seems that the writers just write out stuff either as a means to see "what sticks" and/or just doesn't care and would want to have things both ways. Like how in Season 1 Coulson's team was supposed to be the team of misfits but instead they had two highly skilled agents- not to mentioned the two supposedly best scientists SHIELD has ever seen, since Howard and Tony Stark. Or that Simmons and Fitz are supposed to be totally out of place when in the filed but they seem like the totally capable person- to the point where somehow Fitz learned how to handle his own in street fighting this season. 

Overall, to me, it's just the writers wanting it both ways. Which, in my opinion, shows that the writers really don't give a damn about what they write and would write things to please a small core fanbase. I mean as a comic book fan I hate how they would totally change like everything about comic book characters (because to me that says that they really don't like the source material where these characters/concepts come from) and also that they are trying to make us not only like the main characters but to have them be not only the best at SHIELD but like in the whole MCU.  

2. We actually had about 3 1/2 (roughly) angsty seasons with Fitz and Simmons. It all started in Season 1 where Fitz didn't have enough courage to tell Simmons he was in love with her BUT he had enough courage to talk to Skye-Daisy (my name for the character because she just has so many names attached to her. And she was introduced to us as Skye and was going by that name as well in Season 1) who was a total stranger to him (aside from the fact that his team just caught her hacking into SHIELD's system and had vowed to "bring them down" through her Raising Tide while also living in a van), at the time, BUT Simmons was like his closets (if not only) friend he ever had for like 10 years by then. 

Also, I never heard about ABC forcing the showrunners into rushing their relationship? I always thought that it was the online shippers' demands and the fact that they totally screwed up by not only introducing Will but then totally screwed up handling the Will story as well. 

Edited October 3, 2017 by TVSpectator
Wanted to add a few more thoughts.