S04.E17: Identity and Change

[paigow]

As Daisy and Simmons struggle to discover an escape route to the real world, the identity of the Inhuman leader of the resistance is revealed.

[Jediknight]

Holy crap, I'm digging this storyline.

Can't believe that Fitz killed Agnes, that was just damn.  After that they gave us a little hope that he was remembering when he saw Simmons, and then took it all away with that final scene.

Mack better get a shotgun-axe next week.

[MisterGlass]

This was painful.  Fitz as a scientist in the Hydra tradition is scary.  I'm trying to imagine what his fixed regret was, and how it landed him here.

Ada has gone full supervillain here, right down to the green highlights and eye shadow.  And Madame Hydra?  Of all the names to pick.

I was glad that Coulson was here for a little comic relief.  “I make my own soap now.”

[Lady Calypso]

Man, Fitz executing Agnes like that was cold, especially when Radcliffe was trying to get through to him. You know, it sucks for Radcliffe because he knows he's not waking up in the real world because Aida slit his throat, but he's still trying to help now. At least he'll have a redemption arc of sorts before he dies. 

Oh, Mack. You and Hope are so cute and I am not going to blame him when he's reluctant to leave. I almost don't want him to leave. Hope's such a good kid! 

Some great, humorous moments from Coulson, but I also loved Simmons' eye roll when Ward was professing his love for the woman he thinks is Skye. Just hilarious, knowing the history with his character. I might have also had a little eye roll, but I am very entertained by Ward. His confused look when Daisy made the "soap" comment at Hydra was hilarious. 

Aida's not going to have a fun day when everyone eventually remembers who they are, but especially Fitz. I also predict that Fitz/Simmons will have a rockier relationship after all of this is over. But I actually love cold, calculating Fitz. I am glad he's not going anywhere yet. 

[missbonnie]

I agree with you about the relationship between Fitz and Simmons. I don't see Gemma being able to let that go. I should also note that Iain De Caestecker is absolutely killing it as evil Fitz.

[SnoGirl]

My anxiety levels are through the roof. I don't know how Fitz is going to survive this. The guilt! The guilt he's going to have is going to be epic. May, Mack, their guilt too, this is going to be explosive. But Fitz helped build this. Ugh, my heart.

I LOVE this series. I am so glad being in the framework isnt a one and done. I keep hoping for more surprise appearances, never giving up on Bobby and Hunter returning (but, I want them back in our world too). Triplett could possibly be alive in the Framework too. I wonder if any inhumans could jump into the Framework because of their powers. I wonder if Daisy could disrupt the Framework using her powers, if she got them in the Framework.

I am kinda disappointed Daisy hasnt been actively trying to hack into the Framework. We've heard characters actually reference her hacking skills (May said she didnt care what Daisy was hacking into) so you would think if Aida can change the rules of the Framework, Daisy could potentially do the same. 

[Tiger]

I remember as a kid daydreaming that one day my comic books would be made into movies and tv shows, and now this arc is giving me everything that little kid wanted and this adult now wants now in comics brought to life.  

Mack with his Framework!daughter was heartbreaking.  And I'm pretty sure I screamed out in shock and agony right along with Simmons when Fitz shot Agnes.  

Damn this show is fucking amazing right now!

[paigow]

Did anybody else see the Prison Break - Ogigya - on the HYDRA computer when Daisy was looking for Radcliffe?

Edited April 12, 2017 by paigow

[Sandman]

Wow, that was depressing.

[paigow]

TNG Moriarty reprogrammed the Holodeck from within the Holodeck - Daisy should be able to change the Framework once she gets the admin password...

[thuganomics85]

Part of me knew all along that Fitz was going to kill Agnes as soon as he pointed the gun at her, but I still hoped something would stop him. Alas, he is full blown Hydra Doctor now.  He continues to be just as scary as Aida now.  Ian De Caestecker is continuing to own it as The Doctor.  Poor Simmons though.  Even if/when they finally get out of the Framework, I have a feeling seeing that is going to stick with her for quite some time, and I wonder how it will effect them going forward.  Especially since Simmons probably also blames herself since she was the one to told Ward and Coulson that Fitz would never do it.

Interesting that Coulson isn't completely back, yet.  He knows everything is fake and that the Framework is making an illusion, but he doesn't remember his past or his full relationships with the others in real life.  I wonder if those are things that he will gradually learn over time.  I did like the bits of how he is/was paranoid in the Framework, and he even made his own soap, because he suspected Hydra did something to all the regular soap.  I can kind of buy Coulson would be like this if he never went into Shield.

Mack is back!  So, for him in the Framework, he gets Hope/his daughter back, but he is someone who is willing to tow the line and do what Hydra says.  Which, in this case, was selling out Daisy to Melinda, and now Daisy is captured.  But Mack now feels regret and is joining the rebellion.  Interesting.  And I wonder if the Framework will have a shotgun axe!  Glad that Mace is leading the rebellion.

Can't believe I feel bad for Radcliffe, but I kind of do.  For what it's worth, I think he was sincere about wanting the Framework to do good. Still doesn't make up for all the problems and deaths he caused, but I think his intentions were right?

It actually took me a second to place Mallory Jensen as Agnes.  She really does a great job at making her and Aida look, sound, and act so differently.

Show is getting nuts!  What are they going to do, now?!

Edited April 14, 2017 by thuganomics85

[david gideon]

Radcliff's home in the framework sure looked quite a bit like Mr Roark's house on Fantasy Island.

For me this season of SHIELD has been better than any of the Netflix shows. But Agent Carter is still #1 in my book.

[Lokiberry]

Did Fitz call Aida "Ophelia"? Because  there is a Madame Hydra aka Ophelia Sarkissian in the comics.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Lokiberry

[DeLurker]

How did Hydra May know the name Daisy Johnson?  Did I miss something!

Mack & Hope - break me in to pieces Show! The girl playing Hope was very charismatic.  I'm going to need to stockpile tissues in anticipation of Mack losing Hope.  Damn.

i'm pretty sure he did call her Ophelia.

[Jediknight]

8 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

How did Hydra May know the name Daisy Johnson?  Did I miss something!

Aida would have told her.

[SnoGirl]

7 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Aida would have told her.

Probably the same story she told Fitz....Other Worlders.

Think Radcliffe can hack the Framework? He was the person who was screaming at the end of the episode when Daisy was in the cell right? Or was it the inhuman from last week (I cant remember his name, the brother of the senator).

[ohjoy]

Fitz is going to be so emotionally screwed up when he finally gets out of the framework.

 

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Did anybody else see the Prison Break - Ogigya - on the HYDRA computer when Daisy was looking for Radcliffe?

I did -- promptly did a double-take and then immediately rewound and paused to confirm. Heh. If there was ever a group that needed Michael Scofield...

Edited April 12, 2017 by RandomMe

[Lantern7]

Liking the arc, even though it's The Matrix with a single Agent Smith running things . . . Aida. Or is it "Ida"? She hates that "A."

Is Mace trapped in the Mainframe? I didn't keep notes. On the other hand, I like Conspiracy Dork Coulson. He is so cute, especially when fanboying over Mace's suit. I'm guessing Captain America wasn't a "thing" in this world. And Fitz is totally evil, and the actor is rocking it hard.

I like Hope. Is it too much to ask for the actress to get big glasses and be cast as Lunella Lafayette in the Inhumans series? I'd totally understand if the show couldn't give her Devil Dinosaur due to budget concerns. She can do precocious and smart so well.

More guilt upon waking: Fitz or May? Those Hydra goons really went to town on Daisy.

[Minneapple]

That was a good episode, but oh God, I am not okay. Not okay at all. Mack betraying Daisy, Fitz killing Agnes, then going to work on Skye. I'M NOT OKAY AT ALL.

I love Hope. She rules.

[VCRTracking]

Damn that was gutwrenching and heartbreaking. I knew he was going to do it but I was still with Jemma screaming in disbelief "Fitz nooooooooo!!!"

I don't know Jemma and especially Fitz is gonna come back from this one all right

[Traveller519]

Wow! I'm going to need some time to unpack all of this, but wow.

I will say this, they couldn't have pulled this story early on, not just from a story perspective but from a talent perspective. The young actors were so raw early on. The season 1 finale leaned hard on Samuel L Jackson and Bill Paxton as guest stars to wrap everything up. In Season 2 they brought in the additional "seasoned" actors to ease the burden on the young actors. Tonight it was Fitz, Daisy, and Simmons driving everything and taking the biggest risks. Colson, May, and Mace were support.

[Humbugged]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Man, Fitz executing Agnes like that was cold, especially when Radcliffe was trying to get through to him. You know, it sucks for Radcliffe because he knows he's not waking up in the real world because Aida slit his throat, but he's still trying to help now. At least he'll have a redemption arc of sorts before he dies. 

Oh, Mack. You and Hope are so cute and I am not going to blame him when he's reluctant to leave. I almost don't want him to leave. Hope's such a good kid! 

Some great, humorous moments from Coulson, but I also loved Simmons' eye roll when Ward was professing his love for the woman he thinks is Skye. Just hilarious, knowing the history with his character. I might have also had a little eye roll, but I am very entertained by Ward. His confused look when Daisy made the "soap" comment at Hydra was hilarious. 

Aida's not going to have a fun day when everyone eventually remembers who they are, but especially Fitz. I also predict that Fitz/Simmons will have a rockier relationship after all of this is over. But I actually love cold, calculating Fitz. I am glad he's not going anywhere yet. 

Hope is giving me Moon Girl vibes . She might be the one to get them out

[Mellowyellow]

That was amazing. AMAAAAAZING!!!! Why is this show not getting top notch ratings?

My heart twisted and I felt like bursting into tears when the gun went off and Jemma yelled "Fitz Nooooooo."

I found the scenes with Mac heartbreaking. They really captured what life was like under Hydra. There was something stifling and sad about Mac's life even though he had his daughter. 

I need time to digest all of this. 

[rmontro]

What was that bit that Dr. Radcliffe said to Ward?  He said something like "You were the one who came here before".  Does that refer to something that happened in a previous show, as in Ward trying to contact Radcliffe in the Framework before?

Or was he saying that Ward entered the Framework a long time ago, before any of this happened?  Because if that is the case, then they are likely setting up bringing Ward out of the Framework and into a LMD.  And Ward in the Framework is some sort of echo version of the real Ward, when he was alive.  Even though this Ward doesn't appear to be evil.

[ohjoy]

There was no "here". Radcliffe thought that Ward was Hive at first (because that's the only version of Ward he's ever met), then he realized he wasn't Hive, but "the one who came before" -- i.e. Grant Ward, the person he was before he died and Hive took over his body. Radcliffe mentioned never having met him because last season Ward was already dead by the time the team went looking for Radcliffe.

Edited April 12, 2017 by RandomMe

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Humbugged said:

Hope is giving me Moon Girl vibes . She might be the one to get them out

Seeing as the other regret Mac may have had, besides saving his daughter where it was nothing he did that caused her death, was his prejudice against all things alien having her turn out to be an Inhuman potential might be in the future. (I really hate the reuse of the Buffy terminology in the framework).

So I think Director Mace is actually Inhuman in the framework. At least that is how I read Conspiracy Phil's reaction to him

[Tarasme]

*sniff* UGH! Too much angst!

Though I believe- at this point- Jemma will be able to fully forgive Fitz, if/when they're rescued, I don't think Fitz will forgive Fitz. Then again, the Fitz that comes back might not be looking for forgiveness. :(

Same with May-- will the May that steps out of the Framework even want to be the person she was before.

And what will happen to the Framework? Not everything in there is a brainwave capture, but who knows how much of it- of the persons in it- qualify as sentient souls? Will Daisy, Jemma, Coulson, and Mack be responsible for killing a noble Ward? Or Hope? UGH!

I'm ready for AIDA to be throat punched immediately. AAAAAAAIDA. AIDA. AIDA AIDA AIDA. How dare you use your angst and the giant ARTIFICIAL chip on your shoulder to ruin the world. Selfish brat. Pbbbtttzzs.

Poor Holden and Agnes. :(

Does anyone know if the Darkhold is still playing a role in what's happening? Or did it just start AIDAs evil ball rolling?

[Sandman]

Does it count as an unpopular opinion to say that I'm not sure if Fitz is actually responsible for Doctor Leopold's actions? I understand Simmons' angst -- but at the same time, she's the one who keeps saying none of this is real. Until we hear what Fitz's subjective experience was of being inside the Framework, I don't think the real Fitz can bear responsibility for any action taken by the Doctor. Fitz isn't the Doctor, and the Doctor isn't Fitz. Do the people wired into the Framework have any control over their avatars' actions? I'm doubtful about that. Daisy and Simmons seem to have changed how their equivalents behave in the Framework (in Simmons' case, pretty radically), but this is not a case of someone's being brainwashed: Fitz has been rewritten, along with the world around him. He is literally not the same person -- different history, different values, different ideas and goals. It's not the situation that May was in originally, where her essential nature -- to fight against impossible odds -- hadn't been changed. But AIDA (screw you, "Madame Hydra") changed the essence of the Framework. Its purpose now is to make the one at the top of the pyramid feel better about herself. It's like every other dictatorship in that way.

I'm waiting to see before I predict self-destruction for the real Fitz, is what I'm saying.

1 hour ago, Tarasme said:

I'm ready for AIDA to be throat punched immediately. AAAAAAAIDA. AIDA. AIDA AIDA AIDA. How dare you use your angst and the giant ARTIFICIAL chip on your shoulder to ruin the world. Selfish brat. Pbbbtttzzs.

Exactly. Yes.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Sandman

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Does it count as an unpopular opinion to say that I not sure if Fitz is actually responsible for Doctor Leopold's actions? I understand Simmons' angst -- but at the same time, she's the one who keeps saying none of this is real. Until we hear what Fitz's subjective experience was of being inside the Framework, I don't think the real Fitz can be given responsibility for any action taken by the Doctor. Fitz isn't the Doctor, and the Doctor isn't Fitz. Do the people wired into the Framework have any control over their avatars' actions? I'm doubtful about that. Daisy and Simmons' seem to have changed how their equivalents behave in the Framework (in Simmons' case, pretty radically), but this is not a case of someone's being brainwashed: Fitz has been rewritten, along with the world around him. He is literally not the same person -- different history, different values, different ideas and goals. It's not the situation that May was in originally, where her essential nature -- to fight against impossible odds -- hadn't been changed. But AIDA (screw you, "Madame Hydra") changed the essence of the Framework. Its purpose now is to make the one at the top of the pyramid feel better about herself. It's like every other dictatorship in that way.

 

Oh no, I agree with you. Ultimately, the Fitz that eventually gets awakened shouldn't be held accountable for the brainwashing that Aida has done to him. She has engineered the Framework to the point where she has created her own paradise, which includes Fitz being her protector of sorts. He shouldn't, but it doesn't mean that he won't feel guilt and remorse over what he's done because at the end of the day, he still did it to a degree; somewhere deep down in the programming, he's still there. Much like May might feel her own guilt for what she's done in the Framework. It's not purely logical, but it'll impact them as characters for sure. Simmons might forgive him completely because she knows he isn't him, but she has also just seen the man that she loves murder someone in cold blood. That image, no matter how much she knows it isn't real, is harder to get out of her head. It'll be something that will subconsciously affect their relationship for a time. 

[Tiger]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Damn that was gutwrenching and heartbreaking. I knew he was going to do it but I was still with Jemma screaming in disbelief "Fitz nooooooooo!!!"

I don't know Jemma and especially Fitz is gonna come back from this one all right

One of my favorite things about the 80's X-comics is that things constantly evolved, they never re-set back to any status quo, and each story had lasting consequences.  

I'd like to see the show echo that and permanantly end FitzSimmons.  Because the guily and who knows what else Fitz will feel, and Simmons having to think about him killing Agnes all the time, I dont see how they come back from this.

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

What was that bit that Dr. Radcliffe said to Ward?  He said something like "You were the one who came here before".  Does that refer to something that happened in a previous show, as in Ward trying to contact Radcliffe in the Framework before?

Or was he saying that Ward entered the Framework a long time ago, before any of this happened?  Because if that is the case, then they are likely setting up bringing Ward out of the Framework and into a LMD.  And Ward in the Framework is some sort of echo version of the real Ward, when he was alive.  Even though this Ward doesn't appear to be evil.

 

1 hour ago, RandomMe said:

There was no "here". Radcliffe thought that Ward was Hive at first (because that's the only version of Ward he's ever met), then he realized he wasn't Hive, but "the one who came before" -- i.e. Grant Ward, the person he was before he died and Hive took over his body. Radcliffe mentioned never having met him because last season Ward was already dead by the time the team went looking for Radcliffe.

I think there's going to be a reveal/twist that the Framework isnt some computer program but an actual other dimmension that The Darkhold created and thia Ward will go through the looking glass as it were into the real world.

[Raja]

18 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Oh no, I agree with you. Ultimately, the Fitz that eventually gets awakened shouldn't be held accountable for the brainwashing that Aida has done to him. She has engineered the Framework to the point where she has created her own paradise, which includes Fitz being her protector of sorts. He shouldn't, but it doesn't mean that he won't feel guilt and remorse over what he's done because at the end of the day, he still did it to a degree; somewhere deep down in the programming, he's still there. Much like May might feel her own guilt for what she's done in the Framework. It's not purely logical, but it'll impact them as characters for sure. Simmons might forgive him completely because she knows he isn't him, but she has also just seen the man that she loves murder someone in cold blood. That image, no matter how much she knows it isn't real, is harder to get out of her head. It'll be something that will subconsciously affect their relationship for a time. 

Presumably it wasn’t brainwashing as we think of the term just that Leopold came to maturity with a fake father figure in a world changed because May saved and evil Inhuman. The scary Doctor inside of us all.

[MV007]

9 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I think there's going to be a reveal/twist that the Framework isnt some computer program but an actual other dimmension that The Darkhold created and thia Ward will go through the looking glass as it were into the real world.

I know most probably disagree, but please don't tease me like that.  

[Tarasme]

16 minutes ago, Raja said:

Presumably it wasn’t brainwashing as we think of the term just that Leopold came to maturity with a fake father figure in a world changed because May saved and evil Inhuman. The scary Doctor inside of us all.

And have we even glimpsed what regret- or even if there was a regret- was removed from Fitz? *A*IDA insists that the regret removed is what drove the Framework creation; was it only Melinda's regret at Bahrain or does each soul entering come in free of whatever previously hindered? I hope they act consistently with this- cause it looks like Mack is in there sans regret too.

If everybody gets to be primary regret free, I'd like to know what the pivot point was for Coulson, Mace, and Fitz. 

[SnoGirl]

32 minutes ago, Tiger said:

One of my favorite things about the 80's X-comics is that things constantly evolved, they never re-set back to any status quo, and each story had lasting consequences.  

I'd like to see the show echo that and permanantly end FitzSimmons.  Because the guily and who knows what else Fitz will feel, and Simmons having to think about him killing Agnes all the time, I dont see how they come back from this.

 

I think there's going to be a reveal/twist that the Framework isnt some computer program but an actual other dimmension that The Darkhold created and thia Ward will go through the looking glass as it were into the real world.

My mind would absolutely be BLOWN if this happened. And as someone who thought there was too much Ward, always finding a way to come back, I would completely love this.

Aida would have plugged into the "others" from the parrallel world. Dangerous game she plays...if its true.

[paigow]

Is it impossible for a character to leave the Framework if the physical body is dead? Radcliffe thinks so....Therefore, "Framework!Ward" is not going anywhere.....

[Mellowyellow]

50 minutes ago, MV007 said:

I know most probably disagree, but please don't tease me like that.  

I really liked the actor who played Ward and whilst I didn't like Ward (he was as evil as hell and batshit crazy) I thought he was a great character during his run. I am really enjoying seeing Good Ward in this Framework and if he is actually good *looks around suspiciously because I trust no one* I would love to see him brought back as a GOOD guy this time. 

[Humbugged]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

Seeing as the other regret Mac may have had, besides saving his daughter where it was nothing he did that caused her death, was his prejudice against all things alien having her turn out to be an Inhuman potential might be in the future. (I really hate the reuse of the Buffy terminology in the framework).

So I think Director Mace is actually Inhuman in the framework. At least that is how I read Conspiracy Phil's reaction to him

Potentials originally came from Afterlife in terms of this show .That's what Lincoln called those that were sat on Ji-Ying's waiting list

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Presumably it wasn’t brainwashing as we think of the term just that Leopold came to maturity with a fake father figure in a world changed because May saved and evil Inhuman. The scary Doctor inside of us all.

And also, y'know, with an evil AI literally plugged into his brain.

I suspected that Mace wasn't anymore an Inhuman than he was in the real world, just that he hadn't been unmasked as a fake yet. Maybe it's the suit that powers him?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Sandman

[VCRTracking]

As bad as I felt for poor Agnes(she's really had a raw deal, an inoperable brain tumor, her ex building a creepy robot based on her, spending an eternity in a virtual world with him, then being killed without knowing why) what was really heartbreaking for me was Jemma's belief that the man she loves would not be so evil as to kill an innocent, being utterly shattered. That he did it because he thought he was in love with someone else is even more brutal.

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

I think there's going to be a reveal/twist that the Framework isnt some computer program but an actual other dimmension that The Darkhold created and thia Ward will go through the looking glass as it were into the real world.

Damn, that would be incredible. Seeing the screentest of both Chloe and Dalton they had such fun chemistry that except for one episode early in the first season we didn't see much of.

Edited April 12, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Gregg247]

I think the regrets that AIDA erased from our cast were:

May: failing to save the little girl overseas

Fitz: growing up without his father, who walked out on him and his mother when he was a child.

Mac: losing Hope

Coulson: not having a "normal", quiet life as a teacher, without all the fighting and shooting

Dr. Radcliffe: giving up Agnes

AIDA: not being a "real" woman and having Fitz to herself

Mace: don't know yet

The most chilling part of last night's episode wasn't anything we saw, but what we heard, when Daisy was locked up in the Hydra cell.  You could hear Dr. Radcliffe in the next cell screaming "No, no, put it back, PUT IT BACK!"  He had all those cybernetic appliances like an eye installed on himself.  Do you think Fitz was yanking these things out of him and purposely hurting him by doing it?  That creeps me out, to be honest.

[greekmom]

I feel that the team is going to pull a TNG's "Ship in a Bottle".   Leave Aida/Madame Hydra in the Framework and let her think that she won the war. 

Otherwise, boy is the team super screwed.  I hope they clear this storyline up by next week.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Does it count as an unpopular opinion to say that I not sure if Fitz is actually responsible for Doctor Leopold's actions?

Not to me. And I don`t see it as a true indictment of his character. May is a monster in the Framework as well. I don`t see how not killing this girl in Bahrain would have turned her into a sadistic Hydra thug. One doesn`t follow logically from the other. 

It seems Aida really likes Fitz, I bet she did something extra to twist him up. And she appears to understand the emotional concept of cruelty quite well. She was practically gloating when Fitz shot Agnes. 

I bet this will be used to create Fitz/Simmons angst but the real Fitz is the guy who was the first person hiding Daisy`s inhuman secret, he was the one who suffered brain damage to save Simmons. While he did make mistakes in the real world, none of them were made out of malice. It would strike me as so unfair if he were judged for something that happened while he was unconsious and plugged into some super-dark Holodeck simulation.  

[blackwing]

I am truly loving this arc.  Love the worldbuilding.  So many elements of this world continual to unfold and be revealed with each passing week.  This week, we learned that not only is Hydra in charge, but they have created a gestapo state where citizens cower in fear and regularly get dragged away by the police.

Part of me is still really confused about how "The Framework" works.  Isn't it all a creation of Radcliffe's?  He created the world so that people who were terminally ill would have a place where they could go and be free.  But did he program in all those other elements?  The resistance, etc.  Or is it like a petri dish where he just started the initial thing and then it developed and grew on its own?

I continue to love good guy Agent Grant Ward.  I really wouldn't mind if the show found a way to get this version of him back in the real world.  The actor doesn't seem to be doing anything else at the moment.

14 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Did Fitz call Aida "Ophelia"? Because  there is a Madame Hydra aka Ophelia Sarkissian in the comics.

Yes he did.  And that's the supervillain otherwise known as Viper.  Viper is/was a frequent enemy of Captain America and the Avengers.  She has green hair and green lipstick and called herself Madame Hydra at one point.

[Tarasme]

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to me. And I don`t see it as a true indictment of his character. May is a monster in the Framework as well. I don`t see how not killing this girl in Bahrain would have turned her into a sadistic Hydra thug. One doesn`t follow logically from the other. 

I am skeptical too, however, this is a May that let the girl live- then- the girl turned around and killed hordes of people. I can see that Framework!May would have felt responsible for anyone hurt by the girl she allowed to live. Consequently, May would have turned off anything that ever tried to show mercy or compassion lest it turn around and bite her in the ass again.

[Traveller519]

6 minutes ago, Tarasme said:

I am skeptical too, however, this is a May that let the girl live- then- the girl turned around and killed hordes of people. I can see that Framework!May would have felt responsible for anyone hurt by the girl she allowed to live. Consequently, May would have turned off anything that ever tried to show mercy or compassion lest it turn around and bite her in the ass again.

Exactly, I think the programming logic AIDA (and Radcliffe by proxy) is running into is that the Human Experience is made up of highs and lows. There's no all good all the time, and all clearing your biggest regret does is pave the way for something else to be your biggest regret, or maybe trigger a something even worse. May likely blames herself for Cambridge at this point whether she's aware of the cover-up or not.

I've always enjoyed a Ward who was flipping around the fringes of SHIELDs radar dropping in to thwart their plans. If he comes back in that role, I'll be fine with it. I do think his turn as Hive put a lot on him though.

I really hope we get Frameword Hunter and Bobbi!

[tennisgurl]

Why does it ALWAYS have to be poor Fitz? I know that everyone on the show has been through a lot of shit, but it seems like they are just always looking for new ways to emotionally and physically shatter the poor guy. And when its not him, its Simmons. I really do hope they can come back from this, but it would probably take a lot of time to move on from seeing the man you love shooting an innocent woman in cold blood. She might know, intellectually, that this isn't the real Fitz and the actions of The Doctor aren't his fault, but subcountiously, I can see it really impacting her feelings towards him. The person who I'm sure will have the hardest time forgiving Fitz is poor Fitz. This is certainly going to be horribly traumatic for him when he gets back to normal. Because his brain damage period just wasn't awful enough.

I don't at all blame Fitz for any of The Doctors actions, and I'm going to be really pissed off is the show acts like this is the "real" Fitz, who is totally evil without Simmons or something. Fitz might have his flaws, but he's a good person who would be horrified by this world and his part in it. I think Aida did more to him then just changing one thing about his life. Aida seems to really like (have a crush on?) Fitz, so she reprogrammed him to be her protector/boyfriend who is not only evil, but utterly devoted to her. Aida, you suck. I don't even care how on point your evil fashion game is!

Poor Mack. Seeing him being forced to say "Hail Hydra" is just gross. His life is rather sad here, but at least he has Hope, who seems like a really cool kid. I can see him being tempted to staying here to be with her, once Madam Hydra is defeated.

It makes me wonder what they are going to do when everyone inevitably gets the chance to escape with Good Ward and Hope. I don't think they'll want to leave them behind to be erased when the program is defeated, but what else can they do? Make this world less evil, and leave them there?

Really enjoying this arc so far, very classic Marvel.
 

Edited April 12, 2017 by tennisgurl

[hello]

Quote

Therefore, "Framework!Ward" is not going anywhere.....

He's just code, 1's and 0's. He could be uploaded into an LMD body. Not saying I want this, just saying it could happen. Technically, Radcliffe could be uploaded into an LMD, too...

[rmontro]

I think Simmons assumed that Fitz wouldn't shoot Agnes because Coulson had overcome his brainwashing.  Coulson's an exceptional guy, but still if he could do it, why can't Fitz?  Maybe the prior tinkering with his mind (Tahiti's a magical place) had something to do with it.  He had a notebook full of that "It's a magical place" phrase written over and over.  It must have had some sort of effect on him.

7 hours ago, RandomMe said:

There was no "here". Radcliffe thought that Ward was Hive at first (because that's the only version of Ward he's ever met), then he realized he wasn't Hive, but "the one who came before" -- i.e. Grant Ward, the person he was before he died and Hive took over his body. Radcliffe mentioned never having met him because last season Ward was already dead by the time the team went looking for Radcliffe.

Okay, thanks for that, makes perfect sense.  I misread that line badly, looks like I was waaaaaay off on that.  My bad.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

17 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

This was painful.  Fitz as a scientist in the Hydra tradition is scary.  I'm trying to imagine what his fixed regret was, and how it landed him here.

Ada has gone full supervillain here, right down to the green highlights and eye shadow.  And Madame Hydra?  Of all the names to pick.

I was glad that Coulson was here for a little comic relief.  “I make my own soap now.”

Maybe having a conscience?  Seriously, I am thinking the big regret (if Aida and the Framework are still functioning based on that adage and not Aida's own hard-on for Fitz) is that he knew Simmons and all the heartache it caused him.

I am loving this storyline, it is nice and tense and really has you guessing and love to see how everyone (except Fitz) starts acting as expected.

17 hours ago, paigow said:

Did anybody else see the Prison Break - Ogigya - on the HYDRA computer when Daisy was looking for Radcliffe?

Noticed that too.  If the shows were not on competing networks I would have thought it was a shout-out.  Unless Ogigya has a broader meaning?

 

16 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Aida would have told her.

My issue with that is if Aida knew that Skye had been repossessed, why bother with the subterfuge?  It isn't like Hydra ever required true probable cause or confessions to start torturing.  I think that she knew that Gemma was running around because she was supposed to be dead in this world, but she didn't know about Skye/Daisy yet.  And this is her Framework, can't she just quash the SHIELD rebellion?  This is kind of what Radcliffe was telling her, she is screwing things up by interjecting herself into the Framework making things harder to hand-wave.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to me. And I don`t see it as a true indictment of his character. May is a monster in the Framework as well. I don`t see how not killing this girl in Bahrain would have turned her into a sadistic Hydra thug. One doesn`t follow logically from the other. 

It seems Aida really likes Fitz, I bet she did something extra to twist him up. And she appears to understand the emotional concept of cruelty quite well. She was practically gloating when Fitz shot Agnes. 

I bet this will be used to create Fitz/Simmons angst but the real Fitz is the guy who was the first person hiding Daisy`s inhuman secret, he was the one who suffered brain damage to save Simmons. While he did make mistakes in the real world, none of them were made out of malice. It would strike me as so unfair if he were judged for something that happened while he was unconsious and plugged into some super-dark Holodeck simulation.  

May was always mission driven, but of course with the molding of SHIELD ethics.  Let's have May, who saved the girl, but then the girl turned out to do evil things, her mission is now different in this world, with HYDRA ethics involved, it can be easy to see how May could change.  AIDA even needled her with the "failure" that she beset on humanity by rescuing that girl in Bahrain.

[Aeryn13]

Some larger things must have changed, though, to end up with the current Hydra police state set-up. I can`t buy that this just arose from eliminating a point of regret for the main characters, let alone just May`s. They are the protagonists of the show and I get that they are important but this seems too extreme. My guess is Aida "fixed" some things to her liking. 

I enjoyed the episodes and I enjoy the storyline overall but I don`t see it as a true "what if" world that indicates what would have happened had the characters made different choices but more an "anything goes" crazyness. 

I do like the idea that this could be a way to bring "good" Ward to the show somehow. Granted, it would be supremely awkward but he genuinely seems to be a nice guy here. If the others could start to see him as a brand new person that they don`t really know, I think they could come so far as to offer him a clean slate.