S04.E16: What If...

[Cranberry]

Hail the New World Order! Daisy and Simmons are the only hope to save everyone in a world controlled by Hydra. 

[Jediknight]

That was fantastic.  This arc is looking to be the best this show has done.

I knew Ward was going to the mole the second it was mentioned that there was a mole.  I loved that Coulson remembered at the end, and that when Fitz finds out Simmons is alive he's going to jump.

Speaking of Fitz, holy shit, he was terrifying.

[missbonnie]

I thought he was scary as hell myself! Loved the episode as well. 

[jethro]

Of course, weather happening about 200 miles away , in another television stations viewing area, made our local affiliate decide they needed to break in and not go back to the show with about 15 minutes to go.  I know nothing after Ward, Jemma and Daisy are standing at the park bench.

[Jediknight]

1 minute ago, jethro said:

Of course, weather happening about 200 miles away , in another television stations viewing area, made our local affiliate decide they needed to break in and not go back to the show with about 15 minutes to go.  I know nothing after Ward, Jemma and Daisy are standing at the park bench.

Ward's the mole within HYDRA, Aida is the head of HYDRA, Fitz doesn't know that Simmons is alive and nobody will tell him, Aida and Fitz are together, and Daisy spoke to Coulson asking him to remember and the episode ended with Coulson saying "Daisy?".

[SnoGirl]

I LOVE this arc. I didnt even mind...Ward. I can't believe it. Once again, he was trying to be a big damn double agent hero to someone he loves. 

Fitz was terrifying. Madam was twisted, I knew she had some sort of "feeling" for Fitz. I vomited in my mouth when they kissed. I now know I could never handle someone else with FitzSimmons. 

The dedication to Bill Paxton was sweet. I wasnt expecting it and I loved that they did it. I had wondered if we were going to see him tonight considering the Hydra reveal.

I kinda thought someone mentioning Captain America was going to snap Coulson out of his funk. I'm glad it was Daisy, but it would have been interesting. I wish we would have seen Daisy look up Steve Rodgers. I wonder if he "died" on the train from the first movie.

I wonder what's going to snap May, Fitz, and Mack out of their funk.

[thuganomics85]

Oh, Ward.  You just can't stay loyal to anyone, huh?!  I know he isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it was a pretty return for him and Brett Dalton. He's only a guest actor though, so I doubt he's sticking around long term.

Loved the episode, and one of the rare times when I was shocked that it was already over, because it didn't feel long at all.  Seeing a "universe" with Hydra in control and over half of the agents as Team Hydra was nuts.  Fitz as The Doctor was scary as hell.  When they first mentioned him, I thought it was going to be Radcliffe, but this was a much better direction.  Ian De Caestecker keeps on surprising and impressing me.

I noticed that Simmons sounded very raspy and strained in a lot of this, and I wasn't sure if that was a choice by Elizabeth Henstridge, or if she was under the weather, but it worked really well, I thought.  Then again, I can't think of any time I didn't like Henstridge on this show.  They struck gold with both her and De Caestecker (and really, almost all of the cast.)

Aida is the director of Hydra, in this place.  Oh, that should be fun!

No Radcliffe or Mack sightings, so I'm curious to see where they will fit in.

I knew Daisy would be the one to break Coulson out of his funk, but his final "Daisy" at the end was still spot-on.  I guess he's going to be align now, and it will be out getting the rest on board.  I wonder who will be the hardest to convert?  Most of me thinks May, but maybe Fitz could be a issue, if he's really under Director Aida's spell.

Really can't wait to see where they are going with this.

[Jediknight]

4 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

I wonder what's going to snap May, Fitz, and Mack out of their funk.

Fitz will snap out of it when he comes face to face with Simmons, Mack will snap out of it when he gets a shotgun-axe and somebody mentions Yo-Yo, and May will snap out when somebody calls her The Cavalry.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's funny that the Framework is far more frightening than the alt-universe that the Legion of Doom created over in Legends of Tomorrow.

[jethro]

8 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Ward's the mole within HYDRA, Aida is the head of HYDRA, Fitz doesn't know that Simmons is alive and nobody will tell him, Aida and Fitz are together, and Daisy spoke to Coulson asking him to remember and the episode ended with Coulson saying "Daisy?".

Thanks

[Lady Calypso]

I'm ok with Ward being a double agent within the Framework. This is the show's way of getting a second chance to have Ward as a good guy, and Brett Dalton is a fine actor so I'm ok with this twist. It's not real anyway and there's no way of Brett Dalton coming back as Ward, so this'll be a fun arc for him. Plus, I guess previous SkyeWard shippers are probably giddy with happiness to see their ship actually be a thing for a bit. 

Very frightening world, indeed. It seems that Aida really went all out with Radcliffe on it. 

Fitz as The Doctor was fairly scary. He makes for a good villain. And he's with Aida, which is no surprise to me. I figured it would happen that way. 

Of course Coulson remembers after Daisy shows up. I do think it was Simmons helping to jog his memory and Daisy showing up that really got his mind to break. 

I am so in for the last few episodes this season. It's going to be fun to watch Agents of HYDRA. 

11 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

I noticed that Simmons sounded very raspy and strained in a lot of this, and I wasn't sure if that was a choice by Elizabeth Henstridge, or if she was under the weather, but it worked really well, I thought.

I'm fairly certain that it was an acting choice. I imagine having Simmons buried alive without air for probably a while until she climbed out would have affected her ability to speak, so I loved that little touch. It's all in the details, you know? Although, if it was an under the weather thing for this particular week of filming, kudos for it fitting in with Simmons' entrance to the Framework.

[Sandman]

Isn't Agnes supposed to be part of the same Framework? I have trouble seeing how Radcliffe was giving her the fulfilling life he thought she deserved inside Aida's jackbooted Alt-Hydra hell.

[VCRTracking]

Everything effed up about the Framework reality came out of May saving the Inhuman girl in Bahrain.  We see their wishes end up having horrible consequences. Fitz' asshole dad staying around when he was a child also had a bad influence and Coulson deciding not joining SHIELD because he wanted a quieter life. I think only Mack getting what he wanted(his daughter alive) has no negative effects.

Ward being good was a neat twist.

Elizabeth Henstridge must have had a cold while filming the episode but her raspy voice works for Jemma just digging herself out of being buried alive! How did she do that anyway? Did she train with Pai Mei how to break boards from 1 inch away?

Loved her calling people in the Framework "scraps of code" in front of them.

Jemma's line about "Hydra are Nazis and don't let anybody tell you different". The AoS writers don't seem to be fans of the current brainswashed Captain America Hydra agent storyline!

The dedication to Bill Paxton at the end was touching. Wish he hadn't been busy with Training Day to be in these episodes.

Edited April 5, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Elizabeth Henstridge must have had a cold while filming the episode but her raspy voice works for Jemma just digging herself out of being buried alive! How did she do that anyway? Did she train with Pai Mei how to break boards from 1 inch away?

No need.

She wasn't buried six feet under in a casket (that was part of a cover-up).

In the Framework's timeline Jemma was murdered by Hydra when they emerged after the Inhuman incident along with a bunch of other SHIELD trainees and dumped in a shallow mass grave. She basically woke up under about 6 inches of relatively loose dirt and grass (about 32 lb. per square foot) and her digital body going from a withered corpse (like the others still in the grave) to a living human being probably loosened the soil a bit as well.

So really not much effort at all to get her hand/arm up initially (a human hand and forearm is barely a foot long and less than four inches wide) and and then with pulling/digging at the grass it probably wouldn't be much more than a tougher than normal sit-up/crunch to get her head above ground and crawl out.

And Jemma's situation really shows off one of the inherent flaws of the Framework... how do you give everyone what they want when what a bunch of people want is for certain other people to be dead? Given the massive amount of detail required, just how many different iterations of the world can the Framework support to handle the consequences of all the mutually exclusive choices?

The current answer is that it doesn't. It just re-writes people's whole personalities as needed to fit into the Framework's calculations of unintended consequences of the other bits of 'wish' fulfillment. That's why Coulson had his entire mind and personality rewritten into a weak-willed apologist/indoctrinator for Hydra... which would absolutely HORRIFY the real Coulson.

Which begs the question... what would have happened to Jemma if she'd been plugged into the Framework as Aida intended instead of hacking her way in? Would Aida have altered the entire framework so she wasn't dead or would she have basically had her suffer brain death to keep the rest of the Framework running as before?

Then again, the Framework is based on a demon book so its not surprising that it twists everyone's wishes to create a Hell-on-Earth scenario. It extrapolates the worst possible outcome from May's wish to have not killed the girl and then forces everyone else to live with it when adapting later wishes with their own worst-possible twists (ex. Fitz's horrible father sticking around warps him into the perfect Hydra recruit).

Would it have adapted to Daisy's biggest source of pain/regret (i.e. her guilt over Lincoln) by turning the world into a Hive-collective where all the non-Inhumans are reduced to near-mindless mutated primitives? Hmmmm... actually the demon book would probably LIKE that outcome.

[Vyk]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Would it have adapted to Daisy's biggest source of pain/regret (i.e. her guilt over Lincoln) by turning the world into a Hive-collective where all the non-Inhumans are reduced to near-mindless mutated primitives? Hmmmm... actually the demon book would probably LIKE that outcome.

Is that her biggest regret?  I'm starting to think Ward not truly being good was her biggest regret.  That's why he's good in the Framework.

Also, to beg another question, where the hell were Mack and Mace in this?

[Raja]

17 minutes ago, Vyk said:

Is that her biggest regret?  I'm starting to think Ward not truly being good was her biggest regret.  That's why he's good in the Framework.

Also, to beg another question, where the hell were Mack and Mace in this?

I don't think Daisy's or Simmons' biggest regret comes into play as Aida did not have a chance to map their brains. Ward being there as a resistance mole probably comes from one of the other agents to give Director Mace purpose in the framework. To fight against Hydra tyranny Mace would need help. With the Leopold and May saving the girl in Bahrain stories being mature as others characters, Coulson, Mack and Mace were scanned and inserted space was needed for them to be happy and productive so as the game's master Madam Hydra/framework Aida had to give them purpose and a goal for their virtual lives just as she did for Agent May and Leopold.

So the lines of code, are fooled by Jemma as she makes her way to Mace so Jemma can stay alive and productive, even if she was not properly inserted into the framework.. But now we have actual free agents in the game with Simmons and Daisy, so Madam Hydra has a real fight on her hands which can endanger Leopold, Mack, Coulson and May. And being free there is the chance  that the SHIELD that have  not been scanned and have a story line written for  them can crash the framework.

Presumably Aida still has her "prime directive" to give Daisy and Simmons a useful productive life in the framework. Not just kill them because she is playing the role of Hydra as the game's master. As part of the original cast/team Daisy and Simmons were given priority of the story, which explains why Mac was not shown in  the first framework  episode. Or Yo-yo and Team Piper probably sparring with MODOK Superior and Aida in the real world

[shrewd.buddha]

For a while it seemed as if Daisy/Skye did not know she was in the not-Matrix. Trying to prevent prisoners from being tortured or helping them escape would have been distractions from her real reason for being there   ... unless the Inhuman prisoner (Senator's brother) was somehow a key to everything, which did not seem to be the case. 

It also made me wonder what is happening in the 'real world'. If Aida decided that Radcliffe needed to die after being put into the not-Matrix, it seems she would also see no need to keep any of the other AoS members alive. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by shrewd.buddha

[Humbugged]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm ok with Ward being a double agent within the Framework. This is the show's way of getting a second chance to have Ward as a good guy, and Brett Dalton is a fine actor so I'm ok with this twist. It's not real anyway and there's no way of Brett Dalton coming back as Ward, so this'll be a fun arc for him. Plus, I guess previous SkyeWard shippers are probably giddy with happiness to see their ship actually be a thing for a bit. 

Very frightening world, indeed. It seems that Aida really went all out with Radcliffe on it. 

Fitz as The Doctor was fairly scary. He makes for a good villain. And he's with Aida, which is no surprise to me. I figured it would happen that way. 

Of course Coulson remembers after Daisy shows up. I do think it was Simmons helping to jog his memory and Daisy showing up that really got his mind to break. 

I am so in for the last few episodes this season. It's going to be fun to watch Agents of HYDRA. 

I'm fairly certain that it was an acting choice. I imagine having Simmons buried alive without air for probably a while until she climbed out would have affected her ability to speak, so I loved that little touch. It's all in the details, you know? Although, if it was an under the weather thing for this particular week of filming, kudos for it fitting in with Simmons' entrance to the Framework.

Nope .They were originally all giddy until Chloe shit on them on Twitter from a great height

 

Kolpack tweeted that Lil was sick during filming

[vibeology]

58 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

For a while it seemed as if Daisy/Skye did not know she was in the not-Matrix. Trying to prevent prisoners from being tortured or helping them escape would have been distractions from her real reason for being there   ... unless the Inhuman prisoner (Senator's brother) was somehow a key to everything, which did not seem to be the case. 

I think Daisy knew where she was, she just didn't know a way to get out of that situation without getting caught. She felt she had to play along so she could make a clean getaway to meet up with Simmons.

As for "good" Ward, sure. It's not Ward, just code based on Shield files and the memories of the people Aida was able to scan. Go figure he's still obsessed with Daisy and betraying our main characters. That's what they think of him. I also assume the Resistance exists because, as Aida and Radcliffe discovered early on, people like May thrive when they have something to fight against. By having an "other side" that is a challenge, May and Fitz have a purpose.

I loved it. I think this is pretty amazing payoff for people who've been watching since day one and people who have been with Marvel since the beginning. Tahiti, the Triskelion, Daisy being Skye, Bahrain, Hydra=Nazis, Fitz before he met Simmons, Lola etc. are mostly things that mattered seasons ago and yet they're back adding dimension and excitement to the current story. This show can be up and down, but this payoff is pretty great.

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

No need.

She wasn't buried six feet under in a casket (that was part of a cover-up).

In the Framework's timeline Jemma was murdered by Hydra when they emerged after the Inhuman incident along with a bunch of other SHIELD trainees and dumped in a shallow mass grave. She basically woke up under about 6 inches of relatively loose dirt and grass (about 32 lb. per square foot) and her digital body going from a withered corpse (like the others still in the grave) to a living human being probably loosened the soil a bit as well.

So really not much effort at all to get her hand/arm up initially (a human hand and forearm is barely a foot long and less than four inches wide) and and then with pulling/digging at the grass it probably wouldn't be much more than a tougher than normal sit-up/crunch to get her head above ground and crawl out.

Thanks! Someone on the AfterBuzz recap pointed out the skeleton she was buried next to was Deathlok's!

[JenMcSnark]

It seems to me like Aida created the framework in such a way that she could have Fitz.  Inside the framework is the one place where she can truly have love and the person SHE chooses.  I think that's why she killed Radcliffe in real life and Gemma in the framework.  Radcliffe's biggest regret was losing his wife and of course Fitz couldn't have Gemma alive in the framework or he wouldn't be with Aida's persona, Madame Hydra.  That was the other thing Aida regrets I think...being 'controlled' by Radcliffe.  We saw how he marginalized her and treated her as just a tool/toy. As Madame Hydra, she controls everything and has Fitz. 

I'm sure once Aida got her hands on RealGemma, she would have immediately killed her as well.  

[Traveller519]

So much to unwrap here!

It is interesting how the Framework all seems to stem from May's most painful memory. She was the first one in, and what it was all based around. Now I wonder if it's May's subconscious knowing that while painful she did the right thing that triggers "The Cambridge Incident" OR Radcliffe's anti-Inhuman surroundings while he was mapping the Framework himself... I wonder if that will ever even be entered.

Fitz's character appears to reflect his desire to pursue science in whomever the perceived good guys are, but without the conflict that would have come from having to betray Simmons.

Coulson likewise couldn't imagine a world where he wasn't SHIELD, so it removed him from having ever met May, and all the regret that goes along with that, while still retaining a life where he's a "leader of young minds"

I agree that Simmons and Daisy are anciallary characters to how the Framework has been mapped out in the minds of everyone else. I'm assuming Radcliffe is in France with Agnes or something. Interesting to see if he pops up.

It was interesting contrasting the two styles of Simmons and Daisy breaking down their entrance into the Framework. Daisy was very much trying to resolve her new reality, while Simmons was completely pragmatic about everything she encountered, and was incredibly measured in how she dealt with all of it. Simmons is fast tracking to director of SHIELD in my book. Watch our, Fury!

[rmontro]

I see several people noticed Jemma's raspy voice, she sounded like she had a touch of laryngitis or something.  I thought it was kind of sexy, to be honest, made her seem more vulnerable.  I don't think it was an acting choice, it sounded like her voice was genuinely messed up.  She had a lot of dialogue, maybe she practiced a lot and strained it.  Her and Daisy really carried the episode.

I thought Fitz was kind of funny as the evil Nazi doctor, he really brought the creep.

I also liked the tribute to Bill Paxton.  He really saved season one IMO.

[blackwing]

Loved this episode.  I like the world that was created, and I like discovering things about it as Daisy and Jemma do.  I particularly like the appearance of Ward as a secret agent good guy.  I'm assuming this arc carries us to the end of the season, so hopefully he will be appearing for the rest of it.

[Raja]

55 minutes ago, rmontro said:

 

I thought Fitz was kind of funny as the evil Nazi doctor, he really brought the creep.

I also liked the tribute to Bill Paxton.  He really saved season one IMO.

I was halfway expecting a "discovery requires experimentation" from him. But he acted more like the initial appearance of the Superior. than Dr. Whitehall.  I  was afraid for  Skye losing control of her prisoner.

[Chaos Theory]

This conflicts with a show I like better and I don't have a DVR so I have been letting it slide.  I happened to flip to this during a commercial and..,,dude!  Now THIS is a storyline I might have stuck with.   

[rmontro]

One thing I didn't like was the explanation that Fitz was like he was because Jemma wasn't in his life.  So if Jemma wasn't there he would turn into Dr. Mengele?  Is he really that weak willed?  Is he really that big of a dirtbag underneath?  I don't think so.  

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, rmontro said:

One thing I didn't like was the explanation that Fitz was like he was because Jemma wasn't in his life.  So if Jemma wasn't there he would turn into Dr. Mengele?  Is he really that weak willed?  Is he really that big of a dirtbag underneath?  I don't think so.  

I think it was less about Jemma not being in his life, although that has a significant part on it. Fitz did mention his father at one point, so it's possible that the combination of no Jemma plus his father being more active in his life, it led him to become The Doctor. Much like how, without SHIELD, Coulson became a cowardly teacher willing to let kids go and get tested and probably tortured or killed. 

[3girlsforus]

I think there must be something warped about me. Yes Fitz was really creepy and disturbing but I found something really sexy about it. 

[mrspidey]

17 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 It's not real anyway and there's no way of Brett Dalton coming back as Ward,

Watch them put his simulated mind into an LMD...

[Traveller519]

The title was a great little shout out to Marvel nerds too. For those who may not know. Marvel's "What if...." were an occasional publication of alternate realities if things in the marvel universe had not gone as expected, referencing back to a specific comic

For example:

• What if The Punisher's Family had not Been Killed?
• What if Profesor X had Become the Juggernaut?
• What if the Hulk had the Brain of Bruce Banner?
• What if Spider Man joined the Fantastic Four?

I guess the Framework is "What if May never killed the girl in Bahrain?" 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I particularly like the appearance of Ward as a secret agent good guy.  I'm assuming this arc carries us to the end of the season, so hopefully he will be appearing for the rest of it.

Is May doing booty calls with Ward in the Framework? Some of her strongest real memories / emotions are linked to Ward but they seem to ignore each other "here". She should be hot for him or itching to frag his ass, not neutral.

[Gudzilla]

I'm just hoping we see Ronald 1 and Ronald 2.

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is May doing booty calls with Ward in the Framework? Some of her strongest real memories / emotions are linked to Ward but they seem to ignore each other "here". She should be hot for him or itching to frag his ass, not neutral.

By saving and not killing the girl maybe Andrew was around  until the incident. With no Coulson lead recon team there is less reason for Ward to be a big deal for her.

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

One thing I didn't like was the explanation that Fitz was like he was because Jemma wasn't in his life.  So if Jemma wasn't there he would turn into Dr. Mengele?  Is he really that weak willed?  Is he really that big of a dirtbag underneath?  I don't think so.  

 

 

Yeah, I am also not buying that Simmons is the one thing in his life that doesn't make him into a Scottish Dr. Mengele. I also think that Simmons doesn't even buy it herself. 

So, it was the girl from Bahrain that was behind the "Cambridge Incident" that lead to Hydra taking over the world or just the US? Because it seems like everyone (or mostly everyone) seems kind of fine with Hydra out in the open, within the Framework and people seem kind of fine with there being an organization tied to Nazi Germany running the US government or at least part of it? So, no Cap and his escapes about him destroying Hydra and stopping the Red Skull during WWII either didn't happen or that people are like, "nah, can't be the same organization", no Avengers, no Iron Man, no Hulk, no Thor, no Loki with his Chitauri army, etc... ever tried to stop them then? They just were able to take over and kill any SHIELD members that didn't go along with their plans- kind of like the Winter Solider but much darker and a bit sooner then?

I guess what is really scary is the fact that no one seems utterly disturbed and/or bothered by Hydra- although, it is still a simulation that was at least partly created by an evil magic book, and partly created by Fitz and Radcliffe in the real world, so maybe then? 

Although, in my opinion, I think they were better off to just set this in an actual alternate universe instead of trying to say that this is a really advanced simulation that was base on past regrets, the rule of the real world or at least the MCU, and the butterfly effect, etc....

Edited April 6, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

One thing I didn't like was the explanation that Fitz was like he was because Jemma wasn't in his life.  So if Jemma wasn't there he would turn into Dr. Mengele?  Is he really that weak willed?  Is he really that big of a dirtbag underneath?  I don't think so.  

I don't think it necessarily is so simple as because Jemma was not in his life. 

From what we saw, Framework Hydra was able to seize control because of the Cambridge Incident involving the Inhumans. It looks like they blamed Inhumans for Jemma's death and Fitz bought into it. It was probably then grief, plus a buttload of additional manipulation by Aida, that made him willing to be ruthless and unethical.

Aida tried to program everyone into a position where they would be happy and stop resisting the Framework.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Yeah, I am also not buying that Simmons is the one thing in his life that doesn't make him into a Scottish Dr. Mengele. I also think that Simmons doesn't even buy it herself. 

So, it was the girl from Bahrain that was behind the "Cambridge Incident" that lead to Hydra taking over the world or just the US? Because it seems like everyone (or mostly everyone) seems kind of fine with Hydra out in the open, within the Framework and people seem kind of fine with there being an organization tied to Nazi Germany running the US government or at least part of it? So, no Cap and his escapes about him destroying Hydra and stopping the Red Skull during WWII either didn't happen or that people are like, "nah, can't be the same organization", no Avengers, no Iron Man, no Hulk, no Thor, no Loki with his Chitauri army, etc... ever tried to stop them then? They just were able to take over and kill any SHIELD members that didn't go along with their plans- kind of like the Winter Solider but much darker and a bit sooner then?

I guess what is really scary is the fact that no one seems utterly disturbed and/or bothered by Hydra- although, it is still a simulation that was at least partly created by an evil magic book, and partly created by Fitz and Radcliffe in the real world, so maybe then? 

Although, in my opinion, I think they were better off to just set this in an actual alternate universe instead of trying to say that this is a really advanced simulation that was base on past regrets, the rule of the real world or at least the MCU, and the butterfly effect, etc....

We saw Coulson spout the party line that Hydra wasn't connected to Nazis and that it was thousands of years old.

It could be that in the Framework, Hydra's evolution didn't come about from within the 1940s SHIELD as real Hydra, but rather side-by-side with SHIELD. Or it could be that SHIELD was a "beautiful parasite" of HYDRA in the Framework verse, to quote Arnim Zola. It could be that Cap and the rest of the Avengers are Hydra-aligned, or that they don't exist in the Framework, or numerous other things.

There clearly are people who are disturbed by Hydra -- we saw both Coulson's student who was dragged off and the one who graffittied Simmons's car as a couple. There's also the resistance movement. It's just that people are too scared generally to speak out. 

Dip in the superficial pool: Aida as Madame Hydra was muy caliente.

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We saw Coulson spout the party line that Hydra wasn't connected to Nazis and that it was thousands of years old.

It could be that in the Framework, Hydra's evolution didn't come about from within the 1940s SHIELD as real Hydra, but rather side-by-side with SHIELD. Or it could be that SHIELD was a "beautiful parasite" of HYDRA in the Framework verse, to quote Arnim Zola. It could be that Cap and the rest of the Avengers are Hydra-aligned, or that they don't exist in the Framework, or numerous other things.

There clearly are people who are disturbed by Hydra -- we saw both Coulson's student who was dragged off and the one who graffittied Simmons's car as a couple. There's also the resistance movement. It's just that people are too scared generally to speak out. 

Dip in the superficial pool: Aida as Madame Hydra was muy caliente.

3

Yeah, there is still a lot of "what ifs...." but wasn't this world supposed to be something like following the "rules" of the MCU- so won't Capt and the rest of the Avengers at least be alive- somehow?

[tennisgurl]

Wow, so many villains creating evil alternate universes lately! Did Aida and the Legion of Doom over at Legends of Tomorrow compare notes at some point? That being said, I really like evil alternate universes, so I'm alright with it. This seems like its going to be a really cool arc, WAY more exciting then the last one. Not that it was an awful arc, but this seems like it will be a lot more interesting. I'm also geeking out that they are basically doing a classic Marvel "What if..."story", as other people have mentioned. I am interested in seeing how this could affect the rest of the Marvel universe. I mean, I cant imagine they will go too far into it, considering AoS tends to mostly do its own thing away from the movies and the Marvel Netflix shows, but it would be nice if we got a few mentions.

Evil Fitz as a Scottish Dr. Mengele, complete with Mirror Universe facial hair, is scary as hell! I knew Fitz had a bit of a dark side, but this is another level. Evil May is basically just an even colder and more nasty version of Normal May, but Evil Fitz was just creepy. I feel like Simmons is going to end up waking him up with True loves kiss or something (I've been watching a lot of Once Upon a Time lately), or he sees her in trouble and he wakes up to save her. Also, Aidas evil plan apparently includes making Fitz her piece on the side. Which is...pretty creepy. I know your new to feelings Aida, but using your creepy dream technology to turn a guy you like into a bad guy whos totally into you isn't the best way to get him to like you. Also, I don't buy at all that without Simmons, Fitz would be some kind of supervillain. Maybe he would be a little colder, but he would still be a good person. Something else must have happened to lead to this.

So SkyWard fans get a bone thrown at them at last! I'm really amused by the fact that Ward just cant NOT be a mole, no matter what organization he works for. I'm alright with seeing Good Ward for a little while, but it might lead to some interesting issues. If Daisy finds herself getting attached to this version of Ward, it will suck for her when she has to leave him behind in this virtual world. Or, just the fact that he doesn't actually exist.

Bring it on, show!

Edited April 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel like Simmons is going to end up waking him up with True loves kiss or something (I've been watching a lot of Once Upon a Time lately),

Or Shrek...maybe Mike Myers is "Old Fitz"

[mac123x]

Wow that was really good, though I kept wanting to slap Daisy every time she had an outburst.  "May!  Fitz!" They're not going to recognize you, and you should know that by now.  Or trying to intervene when that guy was getting beaten up.  I guess it's so realistic that it's hard to keep focused on it not being reality.

 

I loved the callback to S1 "It's a magical place!"  I wonder if the fact that Coulson has already undergone a memory wipe-and-recover event is why he was able to break out.  I hope not, because that bodes ill for everyone else.

54 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

everyone (or mostly everyone) seems kind of fine with Hydra out in the open, within the Framework and people seem kind of fine with there being an organization tied to Nazi Germany running the US government or at least part of it? So, no Cap and his escapes about him destroying Hydra and stopping the Red Skull during WWII either didn't happen or that people are like, "nah, can't be the same organization", no Avengers, no Iron Man, no Hulk, no Thor, no Loki with his Chitauri army, etc... ever tried to stop them then? They just were able to take over and kill any SHIELD members that didn't go along with their plans- kind of like the Winter Solider but much darker and a bit sooner then?

 

I kept getting caught up in this too, and had to remind myself that, outside of the <10 people Aida plugged in +Daisy + Simmons, none of them are real, so any illogical or counterintuitive behavior can be dismissed as a flaw in the programming.   How could 7 billion people be okay with HYDRA?  They're programmed to be.

42 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Dip in the superficial pool: Aida as Madame Hydra was muy caliente.

Si.  [the extend of my Spanish]. Was it just the excessive eye makeup, or did they digitally enhance her eyes?  They looked enormous, like anime-big.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Yeah, I am also not buying that Simmons is the one thing in his life that doesn't make him into a Scottish Dr. Mengele. I also think that Simmons doesn't even buy it herself. 

So, it was the girl from Bahrain that was behind the "Cambridge Incident" that lead to Hydra taking over the world or just the US? Because it seems like everyone (or mostly everyone) seems kind of fine with Hydra out in the open, within the Framework and people seem kind of fine with there being an organization tied to Nazi Germany running the US government or at least part of it? So, no Cap and his escapes about him destroying Hydra and stopping the Red Skull during WWII either didn't happen or that people are like, "nah, can't be the same organization", no Avengers, no Iron Man, no Hulk, no Thor, no Loki with his Chitauri army, etc... ever tried to stop them then? They just were able to take over and kill any SHIELD members that didn't go along with their plans- kind of like the Winter Solider but much darker and a bit sooner then?

I guess what is really scary is the fact that no one seems utterly disturbed and/or bothered by Hydra- although, it is still a simulation that was at least partly created by an evil magic book, and partly created by Fitz and Radcliffe in the real world, so maybe then? 

Although, in my opinion, I think they were better off to just set this in an actual alternate universe instead of trying to say that this is a really advanced simulation that was base on past regrets, the rule of the real world or at least the MCU, and the butterfly effect, etc....

But they do have a truth on their side while an open Hydra did support Nazi Germany the Gideon Malick Hive worshiping wing may have also emerged after Cambridge. And perhaps sold the story that so and so whose head is on Mt Rushmore was Hydra back in the day so not just Nazis in Mr Coulson's classroom.

Since we never got a date on Bahrain all we know is that it was before the Avengers Initiative,perhaps Iron Man alone road a nuke through the wormhole. Or New York City is gone in the framework.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Raja

[TVSpectator]

19 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Wow that was really good, though I kept wanting to slap Daisy every time she had an outburst.  "May!  Fitz!" They're not going to recognize you, and you should know that by now.  Or trying to intervene when that guy was getting beaten up.  I guess it's so realistic that it's hard to keep focused on it not being reality.

 

I loved the callback to S1 "It's a magical place!"  I wonder if the fact that Coulson has already undergone a memory wipe-and-recover event is why he was able to break out.  I hope not, because that bodes ill for everyone else.

 

I kept getting caught up in this too, and had to remind myself that, outside of the <10 people Aida plugged in +Daisy + Simmons, none of them are real, so any illogical or counterintuitive behavior can be dismissed as a flaw in the programming.   How could 7 billion people be okay with HYDRA?  They're programmed to be.

Si.  [the extend of my Spanish]. Was it just the excessive eye makeup, or did they digitally enhance her eyes?  They looked enormous, like anime-big.

 

 

 

 

5

Your right, they are all fake except for the ones that AIDA brought into the Framework (which would be at this point- Mack, Mace, Coulson, May, Fitz, Radcliffe, Radcliffe's ex that I am blanking on her name, Daisy and Simmons who "hacked" their way into the framework, and AIDA). Everyone else is fine with Hydra except for some reason there is a small band of resistance that Ward is a part of (once a traitor, always a traitor I guess) are technically only NPCs.

 

The Madame Hydra thing was nice but what would be even nicer was to create an actual Madame Hydra in the real MCU!

Edit: I am pissed that they didn't bother to do Madame Hydra in the actual MCU when they had, IMO, the opportunity to do it, before they wiped out Hydra. 

15 minutes ago, Raja said:

But they do have a truth on their side while an open Hydra did support Nazi Germany the Gideon Mallick Hive worshiping wing may have also emerged after Cambridge. And perhaps sold the story that so and so whose head is on Mt Rushmore was Hydra back in the day so not just Nazis in Mr Coulson's classroom.

Since we never got a date on Bahrain all we know is that it was before the Avengers Initiative,perhaps Iron Man alone road a nuke through the wormhole. Or New York City is gone in the framework.

 

 

 

 

 

I think that it was established that Bahrain was like the late 1990s and/or really early 2000s. I remember Jaiying mentioned some kind of time frame to Skye-Daisy back when she was telling her version of the story and we also learned that May, Bahrain, and the Inhumans were connected in Melinda. 

And yes, it's weird that no one is going... "but Hydra was part of the Nazi Germany. I remember my grandfather telling me that and we also have like printed history books that date back before the Cambridge Incident." Maybe it's supposed to be something like a 1984 thing? I don't know really. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by TVSpectator

[paigow]

The easy answer would be for one of the characters to drop anvils about visiting the Smithsonian [assuming it still exists] and talking about the Red Skull Captain America exhibit...

[Vyk]

12 hours ago, Humbugged said:

Nope .They were originally all giddy until Chloe shit on them on Twitter from a great height

What did she say?

[TVSpectator]

1 minute ago, Vyk said:

What did she say?

It's all here:

[Vyk]

1 minute ago, TVSpectator said:

It's all here:

Oh, yeah.  She shut that down awfully quickly.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Vyk said:

Oh, yeah.  She shut that down awfully quickly.

I'm very impressed that she did that, to be honest. I don't think she could have done it in any other way. I can only imagine the spam of tweets she got back in season 1 about SkyeWard, and probably for season 2 as well. With making his return, I'm sure she wants to make sure that she doesn't get further spammed by SkyeWard shippers. 

[Teitr Styrr]

Well, I have nothing to add, other than I am also enjoying this a bunch! I also liked the title of the episode. I loved the "What if..." comics.

[TVSpectator]

Hey, I am all for shutting down any and all shippers.  I always felt that the SkyWard ship was always icky for me because Ward is such a creep and with the other ships, I felt they were either forced (Fitz and Simmons hooking up after 3 1/2 seasons and then in the same episode having Simmons still be "unsure" if she wanted to date Fitz or not because of her changing friendship status, etc.... Because of the fact that she, to me, never felt any romantic feelings towards him, before that etc...) and/or made up on the fly (May/Coulson) to please those shippers. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by TVSpectator