S01.E07: You Get What You Need

[Cookie1981]

Film Noire your post about costumes is part of what makes coming to these comments so incredible and enriching to the viewing experience, thank you for that! 

Tarzan keeps popping up on Netflix and that review inspired me to watch it. 

[Bitsy]

Funny moment I noticed upon re-watch:  At the fundraiser, Tom offers to get his date, Jane, a drink and Madeleine jumps in and asks him to get her one too.  There's this slight pause while Tom realizes Madeleine is treating him like a waiter.

Not-so funny moment from re-watch:  Perry and Celeste in the car.  Even as Perry is trying to convince Celeste not to leave him, he turns it around on her and says she's been violent too, and then says something about how they can change TOGETHER.  Totally acting like she's at fault too and they both need to change.  

Blaming the victim is not the attitude of someone who is genuinely remorseful and really wants to take responsibility for his behavior.

[MaryWebGirl]

17 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm sorry but look at how short Reese is here!  So cute.  Perry really did tower over everyone at the party; it was a great visual.

I think Reese was wearing flat slipper things (or the heels were very low) while Shalaine was wearing heels, which is swapped from their usual footwear. It furthers the effect of Reese looking extra short.

[lovinbob]

3 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

I am trying not to derail the thread (not saying that you are) but I agree with this.

I wanted to cite common examples of monsters like Bundy and Manson.  Are they worthy of being saved?

To bring it home to DV - can OJ be saved? Is there hope?

That scene in the car made my blood run cold. He literally went through the checklist of excuses/justifications in his head.  I could literally hear him ticking them off one by one.

I am a little obsessed with serial killers and also binge-watched and -read tons of OJ movies and books lately, so your comment really does give me pause. None of those individuals could be saved, I agree. The OJ comparison really hits home. Based on what we know Perry's treatment of Celeste was very much like OJ's of Nicole. And you're right, I don't think OJ was ever going to change. Not sure he was ever capable of real remorse.

Is there only one kind of DV perpetrator? I don't know the answer to that question. But I am coming around to the notion that Perry's reveal as Jane's rapist is meant to show that the only end to Perry's brutality was his murder. 

2 hours ago, film noire said:

I think the differences are meant to convey not just budget constraints (which is a great touch)  but also something more, perhaps. Audrey Hepburn wears several different black dresses in "Breakfast At Tiffany's" -- the one Kidman wore appears at the top of the movie (when Holly is wandering Fifth Avenue early in the morning, stopping to look in Tiffany's window, as she comes back from one of her "dates").  Later on,  rips to her "date" dresses are mentioned, the result of  manhandling men (the kind of men that give her fifty dollars for the powder room).

The shorter black dresses are worn when Holly's ex husband (a country doctor forty years older than her, that she married at fourteen to protect her younger brother) arrives in town, and when Holly visits a gangster in Sing Sing  (to deliver messages from his criminal cohorts, something Holly isn't exactly aware of, and is paid money to do). So (at least to me, imperfectly, bc/ Jane's accessories aren't exactly similar to the movie) Celeste is both pristine Holly, top of the movie -- all glamour and magic (bruises lurking somewhere underneath) -- and also the Holly who gets attacked by violent men, and Jane is the Holly protecting a younger male figure, who is also around a criminal,  an act that brings her down at the end (briefly, before the happy ending arrives). I don't know if that jibes with the designer's intent, but it's how I read it.  

I also love the two My Fair Lady costumes: Renata in the Ascot Races outfit (a scene in which Eliza drops her ladylike pretense and screams out in her native Cockney -- the real deal coming out, as it does for Renata when she immediately attacks Perry w/o hesitation) and Bonnie in the Embassy Ball dress, the scene of Eliza's elegant, doe-eyed triumph (she pulls off being seen as a lady of quality amid the blue bloods) but the night ends with her in that gown and tiara,  throwing slippers (Jane's shoe prints in the sand?) at Higgins (Perry?) and screaming "I could kill you, you selfish brute!" 

Thank you for this. I haven't seen either of these films in many years so these references were lost on me, but brilliant! Nice job, Film Noire, and nice job, show!

[KnoxForPres]

I can watch anything really (excluding I can't watch any animal thing ever) but I had to look away during the flashbacks of what happened to Celeste. I saw where she seemed so fragile and he threw her and could not look at it again. I was so scared.

As a friend who has a bestie going through this (and please let me believe her when she says it's over) to see the brutality and hostility made me so worry.  We want to minimize things and be hopeful and smiley faces and that made me sick. 

I came here all series and marveled at your wisdom and learned Perry might be the bad guy.  Truth be told that never would have occurred to me and I found it cheesy when reading and yet that happened. That disappointed me.  Explain the randomness of Jane moving there...or something.  I get books but really those odds are harder than a lottery unless you tell me rationale.

End rant. I had an emotional reaction to the ending and thought it was wonderful. I loved Renata apologizing and Maddie and Jane accepting her apology. Sincerely.  When the end was revealed and it was Celestes husband who was the victim and Bonnie the doer was I stood up and cheered in a way I haven't since they overtook Oz.  I did cry and think yelled "best series I've watched in a while".  I felt vindicated as a viewer.

[Stella]

5 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

I knew Ziggy's dad would be one of the hubbys, since she hadn't actually met any of them until Gordon came into the coffee shop.

Agree with your point that the dad would be one of the husbands but Jane met Nathan in the first episode and Gordon several episodes later. Not for sure which but they met at the principal's office for sure.

Here is another cool piece about the costumes for Trivia Night.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/big-little-lies-elvis-audrey-costume-guide.html

[STOPSHOUTING]

10 minutes ago, Stella said:

Agree with your point that the dad would be one of the husbands but Jane met Nathan in the first episode and Gordon several episodes later. Not for sure which but they met at the principal's office for sure.

True, sorry. I had noted when I first talked about it with my husband while we were watching that Nathan was the only one she'd meet at orientation but forgot to mention it here, maybe because I wasn't thinking of him as part of the core group of "suspects." Also makes that scene in the car with Perry & Celeste dropping the boys off even more ominous in retrospect. 

And, of course, Jane had met Gordon when she "gouged" Renata's eye out at the school. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by STOPSHOUTING

[Atlanta]

Loved seeing Jane finally decked out and glam, and sweet Ziggy so happy for his mom to go out with Tom.

[stanleyk]

5 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

Perry didn't actually run exactly on track with the typical abuser, since he never did anything to isolate Celeste.  They had a nanny who, if not live-in, was there a lot.  Celeste had easy access to money, to transportation, to communication devices, and to her friends.  Typical abusers don't allow their victims that sort of freedom.  That could be why Celeste assumed that communications on her phone would be safe/private.

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

[Keepitmoving]

4 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Loved seeing Jane finally decked out and glam, and sweet Ziggy so happy for his mom to go out with Tom.

Wasn't he so sweet? He was just too tickled that his mom was going out on a date. I loved that Jane said she didn't know how she'd make it all night in those shoes, her dress up style is more what she wore to the play, no heels. 

2 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

 I agree with all of this, he even interrupted her just because she was on the phone with Maddy. Actually, he said that Maddy was starting to annoy him, I believe it was when he was trying to convince her to go away with him instead of going to the play on opening night.

[formerlyfreedom]

59 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I think Reese was wearing flat slipper things (or the heels were very low) while Shalaine was wearing heels, which is swapped from their usual footwear. It furthers the effect of Reese looking extra short.

She had heels on when she arrived but she was carrying them and barefoot when she fled to the balcony.

[Curio]

Even though I predicted most of what was going to happen, it was so satisfying to see everything wrapped up in a nice bow. Too many shows would try and go for a big fake out moment or a last second twist, but this show stuck to its plan and never wavered. I called Perry was the rapist back when Jane described his movements like a robot, I called one of the twins being the bully, and I called that Jane would finally recognize Perry at the climax which would lead to his death. And even though I knew all of that going in, I was still on the edge of my seat waiting to see everything unfold. That's the sign of some good writing.

Also, I don't know what it says about me as a person, but I was actually way more more nervous for Ed singing his solo and seeing whether or not he'd be terrible than I was waiting for the death to finally happen.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Curio

[humbleopinion]

Maddie was wearing pink Boudoir kitten heels with feathers.

[meep.meep]

7 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

It did have a very Chris Isaak sound to it.  At least the person singing for Nathan sounded like Nathan.  The person singing for Ed sounded nothing like Ed.

Nathan's song was a Louvin Brothers song so very country and Chris Isaak would have been great.  I don't know many public elementary schools that could have a full band, and backup singers, and rehearsal time for an event like this though.

When I attempt to get my elderly braincells to think back to the first episode, wasn't there discussion about the details of the crime that didn't match up with what happened?  I remember the detectives saying that the brain had liquified.  If Perry died from being impaled , that doesn't seem like a likely outcome.  And, since his wig is still on, it doesn't seem like he hit his head on the concrete either.

[stillshimpy]

31 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

 

 

I agree, Perry actually did engage in several classic abuser behaviors.  I don't think the writers wanted anyone to sympathize with or like Perry, or feel pity for him either.  It's just good characterization to add in layers to a depiction.  I think it's also more interesting for an actor to play but I am sure this household wasn't alone in cheering aloud at his death. 

Celeste said she had left her career, her family and her friends to move to Monterey for Perry.  Madeline said she had known Celeste for what...three years?  Was that it?   I sort of wondered if he'd forced her to give up other friendships when Perry stated that Madeline was "starting to piss me off".    Perry also had a trait that fits with the classic abuser profile:  He would pop up unexpectedly.  He always gave a reason but he'd say he was going on a trip and then simply not go.  Or show up when he wasn't expected.  It's a way of checking on someone's activities, making sure Celeste didn't have much of a life.  

By the way, on a rewatch I thought the end scene was beautifully edited but also noticed something, of all the women, Bonnie is the one who won't have a mark on her.  He landed a blow, several of them, on all of the other women present.  Since Bonnie charged in and delivered the death shove, she wouldn't have so much as a skinned knee.    I think that's why everyone realized they had to lie.  

I also liked that it was the male detective who told Zippo to just let it go.  I fully agree with him and honestly thought Zippo was being ridiculous to continue to watch all of the women. 

Sadly, Gordon was harassing some poor woman from the caterers, which was a detail I didn't notice the first time.  Poor Renata, I ended up being glad that she found some actual friendships because she could use some.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by stillshimpy

[stanleyk]

3 hours ago, film noire said:

I think the differences are meant to convey not just budget constraints (which is a great touch)  but also something more, perhaps. Audrey Hepburn wears several different black dresses in "Breakfast At Tiffany's" -- the one Kidman wore appears at the top of the movie (when Holly is wandering Fifth Avenue early in the morning, stopping to look in Tiffany's window, as she comes back from one of her "dates").  Later on,  rips to her "date" dresses are mentioned, the result of  manhandling men (the kind of men that give her fifty dollars for the powder room).

The shorter black dresses are worn when Holly's ex husband (a country doctor forty years older than her, that she married at fourteen to protect her younger brother) arrives in town, and when Holly visits a gangster in Sing Sing  (to deliver messages from his criminal cohorts, something Holly isn't exactly aware of, and is paid money to do). So (at least to me, imperfectly, bc/ Jane's accessories aren't exactly similar to the movie) Celeste is both pristine Holly, top of the movie -- all glamour and magic (bruises lurking somewhere underneath) -- and also the Holly who gets attacked by violent men, and Jane is the Holly protecting a younger male figure, who is also around a criminal,  an act that brings her down at the end (briefly, before the happy ending arrives). I don't know if that jibes with the designer's intent, but it's how I read it.  

I also love the two My Fair Lady costumes: Renata in the Ascot Races outfit (a scene in which Eliza drops her ladylike pretense and screams out in her native Cockney -- the real deal coming out, as it does for Renata when she immediately attacks Perry w/o hesitation) and Bonnie in the Embassy Ball dress, the scene of Eliza's elegant, doe-eyed triumph (she pulls off being seen as a lady of quality amid the blue bloods) but the night ends with her in that gown and tiara,  throwing slippers (Jane's shoe prints in the sand?) at Higgins (Perry?) and screaming "I could kill you, you selfish brute!" 

Also, and I could be totally wrong about this, but I thought that the wife of the man Madeline was having the affair with (Tori?) was dressed as Audrey from Charade. Seems...about right. And if I'm wrong, well, she should have been dressed as Audrey from Charade.

[sasha206]

49 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

Very good points there.

[Penman61]

15 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

Also, and I could be totally wrong about this, but I thought that the wife of the man Madeline was having the affair with (Tori?) was dressed as Audrey from Charade. Seems...about right. And if I'm wrong, well, she should have been dressed as Audrey from Charade.

I think she was jazz club Audrey from 1957's Funny Face.

[larapu2000]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm sorry but look at how short Reese is here!  So cute.  Perry really did tower over everyone at the party; it was a great visual.

And just to be a little gossip, I know someone has brought this up, but it's so funny and interesting to me that Nicole Kidman has seriously dated Zoe Kravitz's father.

I had the same reaction to the height difference.  Reece basically buried her head in Shailene's chest.  Shailene could have rested her chin comfortably on Reece's head.  It gave their scene a more comical note than intended, I think.  At least for me.  But daaaaaammmmmnnn, how tall is Shailene?

[film noire]

36 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

 And if I'm wrong, well, she should have been dressed as Audrey from Charade.

Ha! : )

I think the white headband might point to Funny Face (or the iconic rehearsal photo for Funny Face -- rehearsing what, exactly? Confrontation, leaving?) But I'm not totally sure about her costume, because the black top/black bottom is Hepburn's go-to look in so many films. And  (if that's what the costume designer was going for) I think that's kinda cool, since Tori's a bit of a cypher in that last scene -- she's wearing a look we've seen Hepburn wear many times, but which movie is she in? 

eta:

19 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I think she was jazz club Audrey from 1957's Funny Face.

Okay, scratch my big ol' theory :)

Edited April 4, 2017 by film noire

[stanleyk]

4 minutes ago, film noire said:

eta:

22 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I think she was jazz club Audrey from 1957's Funny Face.

Okay, scratch my big ol' theory :)

Ah well - I liked your theory, at least! 

[Penman61]

Although jazz club Audrey in Funny Face did NOT have the headband...

...curiouser and curiouser...

Edited April 4, 2017 by Penman61

[Eliz]

8 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I think the only unrealistic part of the Perry/Jane scenario is that in the big world that it is, she would accidentally find her rapist.  I don't see how domestic violence and Perry being a rapist = diluting domestic violence.  Often, someone who is abusive in one relationship is abusive elsewhere. If he can violently attack his wife and have very violent sex, why wouldn't he treat a one night stand in similar fashion?  Perry might have rationalized that the rape was violent sex -- much like he has with his wife after an argument.  

I think what this show has done rather successfully is show that domestic abusers and rapists can be that gorgeous guy, wealthy guy.  It's not an inner city thing. 

You weren't responding to me here, but I did say way upthread that I think having Perry turn out to also be Jane's rapist was a bit of a cop out by the show, so I'm going to barge back into the discussion here. I absolutely agree that Perry abusing his wife and also attacking other women is realistic and makes perfect sense. Of course he did. And your point about it can be any man is also a good one. 

My issue is that in the world that the show creates, all the sexual violence comes from one man, and it all disappears when that one man is gone. The reality is that there are lots of groups of friends like Maddie, Celeste, and Jane, in which more than one of them has been the victim of violence. But it's not because there's one real bad guy out there. It's because we live in a society where that kind of violence is really common, perpetrated by many, many men. For the show to create a situation where it's all one guy doing the bad stuff lessens the overall threat. But, I get that it makes a good story, and the goal of the show is to tell a good story, not lecture anybody about the reality of society's ingrained misogyny, so fine. But that's what I meant about it being a cop out as to the reality of sexual violence.

[stillshimpy]

I think Paul's wife might have been from Sabrina.   Google-fu reveals that Shailene Woodley is 5'8" to Witherspoon's 5'1".  Woodley also mentioned wearing heels to her babysitter, so she would have been coming in at about 5'11", I think.   Kidman had on 1 1/2" or 2" heels (visible when she was running up the stairs to get into the event).   

Edited April 4, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

But daaaaaammmmmnnn, how tall is Shailene?

Actually, it would "daaaaaammmmmnnn," how tall is Kidman and Dern? If Shailene is towering over Reese, then what about those other two? Because those two are noticeably taller than Shailene. Or, maybe it's "daaaaaammmmmnnn," how short is Reese? I think that's the question, because Kidman and Dern aren't six feet tall are they? I know Dern is tall, but is she six feet?

Reese did have her shoes off, she was on her bare feet in that scene. She ran out of the party with her shoes in her hand. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[howiveaddict]

Someone should have been Sabrina Audrey in travel clothes with French poodle.

Did anyone notice Bonnie, watching Perry attack Celeste, put her hands to her neck?  I think someone had tried to choke her before.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by howiveaddict

[Eliz]

8 hours ago, ShannaB said:

I am an attorney and despite the fact that the death was all kinds of justifiable IMO, I think the ending was pretty perfect.  Why drag Bonnie through anything?  She might be considered a 'hero' but the news reports, the stories are forever and there will be a stigma and there will be whispers that will probably be passed down to her daughter. So much better that Perry tripped or slipped while beating his wife.  It is better for the women and especially all the children.

I am also an attorney, and we'll have to agree to disagree. One of the things that everyone seems to love about that ending is that all the women came together to protect Celeste. Well, why act like there's anything shameful in that. I think that one of the themes of the show is that secrecy causes pain and problems -- so the idea that this big unnecessary secret is a good thing seems to undercut that central idea.

[Auntie Anxiety]

8 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

Celeste could lose her law license - and needs it to be able to support the kids (I wonder if she will stay in the house or move away from the bad memories).

Why would she have to worry about supporting herself and the twins? She'd get everything from the marriage, even if Perry didn't leave a will. If she sold the house, she'd end up with a few more million dollars.

Dr. Calamity Jane told Celeste that Perry was sick and that Celeste was as well. Celeste's sickness was her co-dependency. So when Celeste and Perry were talking in the car, Celeste was saying that she hoped Perry would get better (if for no other reason than so the kids would be okay with him as their father) but she knew she couldn't stick around to "help him get better," because she finally realized that she'd been down road with him many times, to no avail.

[bmacknz]

23 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Anyone who knows how to read facial expressions saw the look on Bonnie's face when she saw Perry and Celeste. She knew immediately. 

And the series may have ended but I still have not read the book so I cannot see why that would change.

I noticed that she seemed to be following Perry around the event, if not in person, then with her eyes.  She notice when he arrived, watched who he spoke to, and, I think, was the one who watched him 'steal' the alcohol at the bar.  It was like she knew something was off about him (more than normal, maybe) and wanted to see what he was up to - she also followed him down to where all the other women were (meaning, she wasn't looking for the women, she was specifically following him)

[stillshimpy]

9 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Why would she have to worry about supporting herself and the twins? She'd get everything from the marriage, even if Perry didn't leave a will. If she sold the house, she'd end up with a few more million dollars.

 

 

 

She would need to pay off whatever was owed on that house if she sold it and she'd keep the difference.   I'm assuming Perry would have life insurance and presumably, they have savings but selling the house might be the thing that yields the least, depending on how long they've had it.   I don't know that she'd be set for life and I don't think she'd actually get his life insurance if she'd killed him, even in self-defense but I confess, I don't know.  
I didn't really understand the detective's assertion that she'd get 12 months community service and "would be out in three-to-five (community service is assigned in hours, isn't it?).  If Celeste had killed him in defense of her own life, I didn't understand why there would be any charges.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Penman61]

1 minute ago, bmacknz said:

I noticed that she seemed to be following Perry around the event, if not in person, then with her eyes.  She notice when he arrived, watched who he spoke to, and, I think, was the one who watched him 'steal' the alcohol at the bar.  It was like she knew something was off about him (more than normal, maybe) and wanted to see what he was up to - she also followed him down to where all the other women were (meaning, she wasn't looking for the women, she was specifically following him)

Bonnie also saw Perry manhandling Celeste, which was when she put her hand involuntarily to her throat.

[Bitsy]

Celeste wouldn't need to rush out and get a job immediately, but I really doubt she could live well for the rest of her life just on what Perry left behind.  And I do think she would want to continue to live well.  She may have furnished the apartment with Ikea, but it certainly was not a cheap apartment.  I don't see her giving up those ocean views.

Also, as she said in a previous episode, raising kids wasn't enough for her.  She wanted to work.

[mojoween]

I don't care if they picked one of Liane's shall we say not as good works to make another series out of, but if they produced it with this cast, I would be so there.

I don't understand why the director of the play and his wife were at Trivia Night, did they have a kid?  I don't remember seeing one.  And the wife really should have toned down the staring.  She might as well have been wearing a neon sign that said "your wife fucked my husband" so she could be sure Ed saw it.

Nicole's wig was not the best, but she was platinum blonde at the ACM Awards last night and I don't know why.  Red or the camel brown of those wigs are so much more flattering to her.  Other than half of "The Hours" that I couldn't finish because I'm a scaredy-cat I haven't really seen her in anything that I can remember but this has made me a fan.  She comes off as kind of standoffish in real life but she had a subtle warmth in this that seemed authentic.  Considering what her character was going through, especially.

* To correct myself, I did mean "The Others", woops!  Thank you for pointing that out, they are so not the same thing!

Edited April 4, 2017 by mojoween

[madam magpie]

17 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Other than half of "The Hours" that I couldn't finish because I'm a scaredy-cat I haven't really seen her in anything that I can remember but this has made me a fan.  

Do you mean "The Others"? "The Hours" is FANTASTIC, but "The Others" has ghosts. :) (Kidman is great in both.)

Edited April 4, 2017 by madam magpie

[Ms Blue Jay]

Maybe Nicole doesn't like when her hair is red because it reminds her of the Tom Cruise era.

Reese's shortness against Vince Vaughn, who I think it's 6'5", is funny here.

[pbutler111]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Nathan's song was a Louvin Brothers song so very country and Chris Isaak would have been great.  I don't know many public elementary schools that could have a full band, and backup singers, and rehearsal time for an event like this though.

When I attempt to get my elderly braincells to think back to the first episode, wasn't there discussion about the details of the crime that didn't match up with what happened?  I remember the detectives saying that the brain had liquified.  If Perry died from being impaled , that doesn't seem like a likely outcome.  And, since his wig is still on, it doesn't seem like he hit his head on the concrete either.

I know what you mean. I'll have to watch it again and pay more attention, now that I know the outcome. I could've sworn in the first episode they said the victim had been shot.

2 hours ago, stanleyk said:

I've got to disagree with the statement that Perry never did anything to isolate Celeste. He insisted she stop working. He became extra-controlling when she went to ONE meeting to help Maddy with the play. She lied to him on more than one occasion as to where she was going, indicating that he would have prevented her from going if he knew what it was about. He insisted she get off the phone when she was talking to a friend. It seemed to be a common mode for him to attempt to get her to have sex with him right before they were due at a social engagement (i.e., to prevent them from going). And in one of the therapy sessions, Celeste herself said something like "he doesn't like me to spend time with my (family? friends?)". I can't remember exactly what she said, but she definitely vocalized that Perry attempted to isolate her. If he had actually refused her a phone, a car, access to her friends, that would have certainly not allowed either of them to keep up the charade of the "perfect family." There are more ways to isolate someone than actually keeping them semi-prisoner, and Perry seemed to excel at those. 

If he was attempting to isolate her, he was doing a piss poor job of it.  Women who are isolated don't tend to have nannies and frequent meals out with friends.

[jeansheridan]

I find Kidman super warm in interviews.  She has three sisters who are also tall and gorgeous.  And I think she is 5'10.  She did a film with Sean Penn (The Interpretor) and the shenanigans they pulled to avoid having her stand next to him was hilarious.   She is too famous to ask her to bend her knees.  Hee.

[eastcoastress]

38 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

If he was attempting to isolate her, he was doing a piss poor job of it.  Women who are isolated don't tend to have nannies and frequent meals out with friends.

Like a pp said, there are other ways to isolate than lock & key. I think Celeste was pretty isolated in that she (for however many years) was a prisoner in that she could not live freely (like her friends). Family & work was given up (freely, but I bet it became more of a condition). She was a prisoner emotionally; she could not share her fear with anyone (talk about Ed's marital pretending speech--Celeste & Perry were actors playing actors).  Perry probably allowed for a degree of socialization otherwise that level of isolation in a tight community (of similar aged parents raising school aged children) would draw dangerous scrutiny. Some facade of normalcy had to be presented. But even in scenes where Celeste was out of the house, it was limited (dropping off/picking up kids, a quick morning cup of coffee with the girls, maybe an occasional lunch or dinner--but I wonder if most of those occurred when Perry was out of town).  And if she did go out or entertain notion of going out, enter Perry's threatening 'why was this not discussed with me?'  And in those scenes when she was out,  I never found Celeste 'free'. Brings back that initial scene when Jane talks about never feeling like she's living her own life...she and Celeste share a gaze. And I don't recall seeing anyone visit Celeste's home. Like I said earlier, I'm sure she avoided friends coming over at all costs, lest they catch hints of Perry's rage. So no kid playdates, no friends, no pizza delivery.

Something I find interesting is that whole "none of this would have happened if it wasn't for that fateful morning when Maddy rolled her ankle" thing. It just fascinates me how the tiniest of life threads, choices, paths, etc...can potentially alter outcomes. If Maddy wasn't outspoken...if she didn't get out of the car...if she didn't roll her ankle, if Jane didn't happen to be right there, if sweet, thoughtful Ziggy didn't say, 'geez, shouldn't we check on that lady mom?', if Maddy didn't take such a liking to Jane, and so on....to the point where one could say that Jane essentially saved Celeste's life. Just something that fascinates me. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by eastcoastress

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, Bitsy said:

Celeste wouldn't need to rush out and get a job immediately, but I really doubt she could live well for the rest of her life just on what Perry left behind.  And I do think she would want to continue to live well.  She may have furnished the apartment with Ikea, but it certainly was not a cheap apartment.  I don't see her giving up those ocean views.

Also, as she said in a previous episode, raising kids wasn't enough for her.  She wanted to work.

 

Plus, it would be as if he got to take something else from her that she valued about herself even as he died.  She was good at it.  She knew it, it helped give her self-worth.  That's partly why Perry didn't want her to work.  It gave her a sense of self-empowerment.  

I think it would have been tragic if Celeste lost her license to practice law, or was disbarred because of him.  It would feel like he'd succeeded in killing part of her.  

[Bitsy]

21 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

If he was attempting to isolate her, he was doing a piss poor job of it.  Women who are isolated don't tend to have nannies and frequent meals out with friends.

Did they really have a nanny and not an occasional babysitter?  I only remember seeing her when Celeste brought Perry home from the hospital and when they went out to trivia night, both of which are occasions that would require a babysitter.  Celeste seemed to be in charge of school pick-up and drop-off, cooking meals, laundry, picking up legos.

Celeste had no family around, no coworkers and ONE friend.  (Technically two after Madeleine brought Jane into the fold, but it's not like Jane was close enough to ever stop by her house or meet her husband.) Whenever Perry sensed Madeleine getting too close, he'd try to sabotage it, whether it was a phone call or the play.    I'd say that's VERY isolated.  

[Bitsy]

11 minutes ago, eastcoastress said:

And I don't recall seeing anyone visit Celeste's home. Like I said earlier, I'm sure she avoided friends coming over at all costs, lest they catch hints of Perry's rage. So no kid playdates, no friends, no pizza delivery.

Madeleine hung out at Celeste's house one afternoon, and then Perry came home and it was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.  Madeleine was totally oblivious, Perry and Celeste did their happy couple routine, but it was clear that Perry was not happy about her being there.  And it was understood that once Perry was home, that it was Madeleine's time to leave.

[eastcoastress]

14 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

Madeleine hung out at Celeste's house one afternoon, and then Perry came home and it was incredibly uncomfortable to watch.  Madeleine was totally oblivious, Perry and Celeste did their happy couple routine, but it was clear that Perry was not happy about her being there.  And it was understood that once Perry was home, that it was Madeleine's time to leave.

Oh that's right!  I did remember a slightly compensating tone from Madeleine when she responded to Perry's " what's making my wife laugh so carefree without my presence "  ( obviously not his words but what I heard heh). Nothing distinct but I did  get impression that Madeleine felt uneasy in his presence. Maybe uneasy is wrong word ... maddy interacted with Perry like he was someone she barely sees , with perfunctory dialogue. Interesting scene. I'll have to rewatch 

Edited April 4, 2017 by eastcoastress

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

 

I don't understand why the director of the play and his wife were at Trivia Night, did they have a kid?

 

Good point.   I guess they were there because it was at his theater.  Those were the stairs Maddie used each time she went there.  

[stanleyk]

1 hour ago, pbutler111 said:

If he was attempting to isolate her, he was doing a piss poor job of it.  Women who are isolated don't tend to have nannies and frequent meals out with friends.

I'm not sure why "isolated" needs to mean a single thing; it seems like your definition is limited to a person having zero contact with the outside world. I'm no expert, but isolation in the context of domestic abuse seems like it could take many forms. As another poster pointed out, Celeste has a single real friend. Perry has cut her off from her family and work. Celeste herself said that Perry wanted her to have little contact with her family. We saw her have drinks with Maddy once and coffee with Maddy and Jane a couple times. Domestic help may act as a witness, but isolation in this context is more about isolating a person from emotional support, not keeping them locked up and literally unable to communicate.

[pbutler111]

7 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

I'm not sure why "isolated" needs to mean a single thing; it seems like your definition is limited to a person having zero contact with the outside world. I'm no expert, but isolation in the context of domestic abuse seems like it could take many forms. As another poster pointed out, Celeste has a single real friend. Perry has cut her off from her family and work. Celeste herself said that Perry wanted her to have little contact with her family. We saw her have drinks with Maddy once and coffee with Maddy and Jane a couple times. Domestic help may act as a witness, but isolation in this context is more about isolating a person from emotional support, not keeping them locked up and literally unable to communicate.

I'm no expert, either, though I have a PhD in watching abuse victims on Dr. Phil.  I've yet to see one of them that didn't follow a well worn path of isolating their victim.  Celeste, by comparison, seems free as a bird.

32 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Good point.   I guess they were there because it was at his theater.  Those were the stairs Maddie used each time she went there.  

I was under the impression that Trivia Night was a fundraiser that involved anyone who wanted to buy a ticket.

[Auntie Anxiety]

She had no one she could really talk to without fear of being judged, no one she could really be herself with. That in and of itself is isolating.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

17 hours ago, BTBAM310 said:

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

What a wild ride.  I think my only disappointment is that there will not be a Big Little Lies 2: Electric Boogaloo, as I would love to see the main cast engage in some kind of 80's inspired break dancing charity fund raiser (perhaps for Jane, as she is "poor" by her friends' standards).     

Any reference to Breakin' gets a like

Hey, I now demand more likes for my username!

17 hours ago, kjwillis93 said:

 Second, and I might be reaching here, but did anyone else catch the scene between Tom (the barista) and Gordon (Renata's husband) where Tom raises his glass at Gordon, and Gordon responses by doing the same and winking at him? I couldn't help but catch the vibe that maybe Tom and Gordon were lovers. Tom might be closeted (and therefore Madeline wasn't too off base by claiming he was gay), and Gordon having an affair isn't that much of a stretch to me. Everyone seemed to have these scandalous secrets, so that was Gordon's. (And, I'd argue that this wasn't explored much beyond that because it wasn't really relevant to the plot that was unfolding). 

I interpreted that moment very differently. I saw Tom giving Gordon the stink eye due to the scene in the cafe. Then Gordon turned and saw Tom staring at him so Tom tried to be sociable by raising his glass to say hi (it's always awkward when you get caught looking at someone - my reactions have usually been to wave hi or to awkwardly look away). Gordon gave him the equivalent of finger guns as if to say, "Ha, caught you staring at me, JERK!"

For the record, I thought it was hilarious that before Gordon stormed out of the cafe, he said, "You just lost yourself a lot of customers." First of all, as far as we know, Tom is a waiter/barista, not the owner (although of course as an employee, it's in his best interest for the cafe to have a decent amount of business). But secondly, as if Gordon ever goes there. That's like when everyone in college used to boycott Domino's Pizza for donating to Operation Rescue. I was like yeah, they won't feel the effects of my boycott because they have such shitty pizza that I never eat there anyway. I know he was threatening to tell his friends not to eat there either but I don't see that a lot of people would care if Gordon said not to go. Renata, maybe (Harper would obey but I don't know who else would care) but she already told Gordon he was making HER look bad.

17 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

Perry didn't actually run exactly on track with the typical abuser, since he never did anything to isolate Celeste.  They had a nanny who, if not live-in, was there a lot.  Celeste had easy access to money, to transportation, to communication devices, and to her friends.  Typical abusers don't allow their victims that sort of freedom.  That could be why Celeste assumed that communications on her phone would be safe/private.

He didn't lock her in a cage, but he did isolate her socially. He didn't allow her to have friends besides Madeline, which was brought up in one of the earlier episodes. I knew someone who was in a similar situation. She wasn't handcuffed to a radiator and she was "allowed" to go to certain social outings so most people thought everything was fine with her boyfriend. But some of us saw the reality of what he was doing. She was allowed to go to social events for work and she was allowed to go to certain other (non-work) things if he could come (aka keep an eye on her). On the rare occasion that she managed to go to something that didn't fall under those two categories, he would start texting and calling to ask where she was and who she was with and when she was coming home (even though she didn't sneak out of the house by climbing out the window - she told him where she was going and who would be there and when she was coming home before she left the house). Then 15 minutes later he'd be texting or calling AGAIN to ask the same questions and to ask why she wasn't home yet and when she was leaving. He would make up reasons why she had to come home or guilt trip her into coming home so that she would leave early (even though she told him before she left what time she would be back). Perry didn't do the exact same thing but I saw shades of it when he told Celeste that he didn't want her to go to Madeline's opening night and then he started coming at her for sex. Even if she hadn't hit him with that racket, they were not going to that play.

17 hours ago, Teddybear said:

I'm mad that so many people showed up to that asshole's funeral.  

I was okay with it because I figured that most of them were there to show support for Celeste as a member of their community, kind of the same way I went to a funeral for my friend's mom who I'd only met a few times. I was mostly there to be supportive of my friend. Of course you know that some of the rich wives were there because Hot Perry was dead.

17 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Hell we talk about Celeste wanting to believe Perry could be fixed, hoping for a fix, but look at Jane. Jane said deep down there was a part of her that was wishing that Ziggy's father just had, had a bad day, the night he raped her. Nope, she did not say that she wished his father was someone else, she said she wished that the man who raped her, was deep down somewhere inside, a good person. Of course that's all about her son Ziggy I believe and not wanting to think about how half his chromosomes come from someone who has absolutely no redeeming qualities but...

 

16 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

I do not remember this at all.

But I tend to tune Jane out, so no wonder.

From last week's episode:
Jane: I still hope that whoever he is, he's a nice guy. Maybe that night was just a bad misunderstanding or a night gone wrong or he had a bad day or his parents got in a car crash. I make up these crazy excuses because I'm so desperate that Ziggy's father is actually a good person.

10 hours ago, pbutler111 said:

I could've sworn in the first episode they said the victim had been shot.

From the first episode:
Dr. Chang: There was a 4x3 full thickness scalp laceration located on the superior occipital portion of the scalp. We also discovered a full thickness scalp contusion and associated subgaleal hemorrhages and a putrified and liquified brain.

9 hours ago, Bitsy said:

Did they really have a nanny and not an occasional babysitter?  I only remember seeing her when Celeste brought Perry home from the hospital and when they went out to trivia night, both of which are occasions that would require a babysitter.  Celeste seemed to be in charge of school pick-up and drop-off, cooking meals, laundry, picking up legos.

In one of the first episodes, Madeline calls Celeste and asks, "Is the nanny there with the boys?" (because she wants to know if Celeste is free to meet her for a drink), so yes, Celeste has a nanny. How much work she actually does is questionable. It's likely that the nanny was full time in the earlier years and now that the boys are in school, she works part time (after school, evenings, and weekends).

Edited April 4, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Eliz said:

My issue is that in the world that the show creates, all the sexual violence comes from one man, and it all disappears when that one man is gone. The reality is that there are lots of groups of friends like Maddie, Celeste, and Jane, in which more than one of them has been the victim of violence. But it's not because there's one real bad guy out there.

Yes, Perry was apparently a one-man sex crime wave in Monterey.   Given Bonnie's out of character reaction, the clutching of her neck at the stairs and later at the beach, I suspected a hint that she was also one of his victims.  Surely they wouldn't take it that far..or would they?

[WhosThatGirl]

5 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Yes, Perry was apparently a one-man sex crime wave in Monterey.   Given Bonnie's out of character reaction, the clutching of her neck at the stairs and later at the beach, I suspected a hint that she was also one of his victims.  Surely they wouldn't take it that far..or would they?

I just took that moment as her having a physical reaction because it was obvious from her facial expressions when she first noticed Celeste and Perry fighting,  she's had a last experience with this. Maybe an old boyfriend or something? It explains why she likes peace and serenity in her home and her reaction to when Abigail and Nathan were fighting last week, she wanted to shut down that fast. 

This show was a great fantastic show. It really was. It's why while the feeling is bittersweet it's over, I think it's for the best? It was so great, I think another season would ruin it. Why mess with perfection. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[Connell]

I watched most of it on my iPhone Amazon app, and I think it spoiled the ending pretty early in the series. I mean, the Perry thing was kind of a "duh." I got that within the first few episodes when he was an abusive prick and matched the silhouette in Jane's memory. But what solidified it to me, and even had me knowing it was Max, not Josh, as the abusing kid, was the fact that if you hit the screen on the iPhone, it only ever showed the kid-actor who played Max and his name. I found that really weird when I was looking at who was playing whom early on (I mean, obviously twin actors, why is only one ever given a credit...still weird after the reveal), so it was apparent to me, early on, that the Max twin was more "important" than Josh, and from there an easy leap, considering Perry's abuse/general creepiness.