S03.E15: The Wrath of Savitar

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If Barry hadn't been suck a colossal dick to Wally he probably wouldn't have gone off on his own and fallen for that very transparent ploy by Savitar.  On the plus side Savitar has slowed down a bit because in his previous appearances the other speedsters couldn't even see him move.

I also thing the writers needed to switch the word permission with blessing.  Iris isn't Joe's property so he doesn't have a right to decide who she can marry but it's certainly reasonable to get a father's blessing before proposing.  Of course, maybe it doesn't matter when a brother and sister get engaged.

They may have grown up in the same household, but Barry and Iris are not brother and sister, as the show has made quite clear.  Joe never formally adopted Barry, and there is definitely no blood relationship between them.  It would be like having your best opposite-sex friend move in with you, nothing more.

[JohnnyGilda]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'd burn the death outfit I was wearing too.

Yeah, keep the ring and maybe change your hair color or something.

I went into this episode thinking that it's Wally, but then they leaned so hard in that direction...and I hadn't thought about Jesse Quick as a possibility, so, now I'm less convinced. Well-played.

Not well-played: The Fastest Man Alive just standing there as Wally floated for a few in front of the speed force. It would have been just as dramatic if Barry or Jesse had made an attempt to grab him and failed.

[waving feather]

I don't have any sympathy for Barry. He has been doing this for a while now. He should know better. So, it seemed like indirectly he 1) gave Savitar the idea and an opportunity to escape the speed force when he created Flashpoint, 2) told Wally to f off from the team, making him spiral downwards further and feel like he has no one but himself to solve the problem. Wally is impulsive and not the smartest guy, but he is young and inexperienced, compared to Barry. Barry should have known better how to manage him.

I have not been a fan of Barry since this season started and this episode did NOT help. First of all, they were horrible to Julian. Barry implicitly let Julian get abused by Savitar again when he is already traumatized. To put it crudely, it's like using a victim who survived as a bait to lure the attacker in. And Barry did it twice! And it's not like they got any vital info from it anyway. I had already guessed that Savitar would be in the speed force and the geniuses at S.T.A.R. Labs should have been able to do so as well from the start.

3 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Grant Gustin and Carlos Valdes seemed especially flat and wooden this episode.  I wonder if they're getting tired of this.

I think Carlos is a good actor but he isn't even trying this episode. Not that I really blame him, because the stuff they have coming out of Cisco's mouth were so dumb. Why doesn't Cisco use that big brain of his to come up with a reasonable solution instead of following Barry's lead all the time? Besides Barry, he is most familiar with the speed force and the inter-dimensional travel. He should have known by now after Flashpoint that Barry is not a man with good ideas.

This show is so lucky to have Tom Felton. He acted his little butt off and owned every scene he was in. Otherwise, this episode would have been completely terrible.

[Lady Calypso]

10 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

And Iris does a dick move and removes the engagement ring. You either love the guy or don't. Who cares why he proposed when he did. I know she doesn't remember S1 and professing her love for Barry,  out of fear, when the tsunami was headed toward her, but Barry should. Iris you are not that noble.

I don't think she was a dick for removing the engagement ring. She's right, in a sense, that Barry did propose out of fear. I think when Iris professed her love for Barry, it was somewhat out of fear, but also because she was just coming to the realization herself. Remember, once Barry changed the timeline, she didn't have that same realization. I think that Iris didn't want their engagement to be under false pretenses, in the sense that the reason for proposing was for other reasons. It doesn't seem like she broke up with him, judging from her touching his hand at the end of the episode, but just that she would rather get engaged when her life isn't in danger. She even rightfully called out Barry and her moving in together as being out of fear as well, because Barry had seen the future earlier that week and then they moved in together. 

If anything, Iris finally had agency of her own and I'm glad she spoke up. If I was her, I'd probably care why my boyfriend decided to propose. I think Iris realized that he was rushing through things to save her but what would happen if Savitar was defeated? I think her mindset was right in that Barry might not be ready for all these big steps. Iris and Barry still love each other but she didn't want their engagement to be tainted by Savitar, and in this case, it is. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

That permission nonsense was unbearable. Iris is not Joe's property. It's the 21st century. Stop normalizing that kind of crap, show.

Also a little slice of sexism about Wally not wanting to be outrun by his girlfriend, but at least that was talking about Wally's attitude's and he's already been established as being immature in many ways. 

Also Iris's reaction to the proposal reveal was a little over the top. Your precious love is not "tainted forever" Iris, Barry had idea that thought might save your life and he went with it. You know, like he's been dedicating himself to doing for weeks (months?) now.

But that was relatively understandable compared to Wally's bizarre reaction. Why was he so angry about it, exactly?

I did like the irony that Caitlin's dumb decision to keep a piece of the stone was the only thing that kept Barry's original dumb idea to throw it into the speed force from freeing Savitar in the first place. I presume that if she hadn't done that, then Barry would have taken Savitar's place in the speed force, thereby preventing future Barry from ever imprisoning Savitar and..."I hate temporal mechanics" as the saying goes. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Latverian Diplomat
fixed typo

[maxineofarc]

57 minutes ago, waving feather said:

This show is so lucky to have Tom Felton. He acted his little butt off and owned every scene he was in. Otherwise, this episode would have been completely terrible.

I am so impressed by what he's brought to the show this season. He owns the screen every time he's on it. I'd love to see a scene with just him and Cavanagh sometime; most of the rest of the younger cast seemed to be phoning this episode in, but that kid commits. His Savitar was chilling. He even almost sold me on the "you don't really like me, wah" dialogue with Caitlin. I guess all those Harry Potter movies could be a pretty impressive master class for a kid who was paying attention. The wardrobe department may also be factoring into my love for Julian. Kid is dap as hell.

Caitlin keeping the stone didn't seem like a "betrayal" to me so much as "just some dumb thing anybody on this show might do." Man, I hate her sad face, though. She looks like a pouty toddler when she starts screwing up her forehead. I so want Caitlin to work for me as a character, and she just doesn't have a strong idiosyncratic personality like Cisco or HR or even Barry; unless she's Killer Frosting it up, she just sort of fades into the background. I'm not thrilled about her having yet another spin around a more interesting male character.

[waving feather]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

There was great broad strokes; but they failed in the details. 

That's basically the theme of this season for me. 

I hope now that Wally is gone, Jesse would look at Team Flash and go "what a shit-show" and then travel back to join her dad in Earth-2. 

I know Barry, Cisco and Caitlin are still salty about Eobard Thawne but I just realised how stupid they are in their decision making without him around. They really do need him. Harry from Earth-2 is smart enough but he is too emotional not as shrewd as Eobard.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, Rascotes said:

Why did Barry just stand there while Wally was holding that Jesus pose in front of the speed force portal?  You'd think he would have grabbed the kid or something instead of standing there with this "If only there was something I could do!" expression.

I'm totally on board with the Wally being Savitar theory.  

Random note:  I am expecting Draco to be killed but I hope not.  I didn't love the character at first but the guy really does manage to own every scene he's in.  They should make him a regular.

Yes!  Barry just standing there and doing nothing as Mr. Fastest Man Alive Savitar SLOWLY crawled out of the portal also annoyed the hell out of me too.

Quote

The team, and definitely Barry's reaction, to what Caitlin did was too understated. Especially compared to the reaction to Wally lying for one week. Did she really say that someone else's voice comes out of her when she's killer frost.... Regardless, I don't think this is the end of it regarding the secret. Otherwise

Lying just seems to have become a numb acceptance for the team.  They really should stop tolerating it.

It isn't a surprise that Joe wanted Barry to ask for his permission instead of his blessing.  He basically treats Iris like a father would pre-20th century.

Edited March 8, 2017 by benteen

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

They may have grown up in the same household, but Barry and Iris are not brother and sister, as the show has made quite clear.  Joe never formally adopted Barry, and there is definitely no blood relationship between them.  It would be like having your best opposite-sex friend move in with you, nothing more.

I was kidding about that - this isn't Game of Thrones, after all.  Although if Barry is so keen on changing cosmetic details then why doesn't he ask Iris to dye her hair, cut it off, change his own costume, grow a beard, etc.  At the very least he could find her outfit and burn it.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

That permission nonsense was unbearable. Iris is not Joe's property. It's the 21st century. Stop normalizing that kind of crap, show.

I really wanted Barry to say: "Joe, you know I respect you and I love hearing the story about your parents (grandparents?), but it's 2017. Things have changed since your parents and grandparents were alive." But at least it's a nice callback to Eddie and how he asked for Joe's blessing, but Joe really took it as giving permission. Even without mentioning Eddie by name, that's all I could think about. 

I do want to know why Savitar keeps referring to HR as The Pretender. It has to be significant, right? I'm going to laugh if Savitar is Earth 1 Real Harrison Wells, or he's HR's assistant from E19. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do want to know why Savitar keeps referring to HR as The Pretender. It has to be significant, right? I'm going to laugh if Savitar is Earth 1 Real Harrison Wells, or he's HR's assistant from E19. 

I think it's just a reference to the fact that HR originally got on the team by pretending to be a "science genius". But maybe there's more to it.

Savitar also called HR a coward, so that might come into play, especially given that HR with a rifle that didn't do anything was part of the future vision.

The problem with having HR let down the team in that fashion is that he's already so useless, there's not much dramatic weight to him failing even more.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I think it's just a reference to the fact that HR originally got on the team by pretending to be a "science genius". But maybe there's more to it.

I thought that at first, but when it was mentioned again in this episode, I had to change my mind about it being just about that. I mean, the team already knows that he's a Pretender. Why continue to hint at something bigger? I remember a theory floating around in the early season about HR not being the real HR. I don't know whether that can still be the case now, but Savitar has taken a keen interest in him specifically, and for a reason. 

Which is why I'm officially on board with Savitar being a version of Wally. Seeing how close Wally and HR have gotten, maybe there's a further connection that we'll see why Savitar seems to detest HR. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The whole episode was written badly.

There was great broad strokes; but they failed in the details. 

I have to ask, are writers/producers just spread too thinly over in DC/CW land? Or has the Berlanti House style just become enamored of a certain amount of easy sloppiness? Because all the DC universe shows seem to routinely have scripts that could easily use a polish, or even another draft.

I get that budgets are tight, but I thought writers' time at least, was cheap?

Edited March 8, 2017 by Latverian Diplomat
fixed typo

[Cthulhudrew]

6 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Grant Gustin and Carlos Valdes seemed especially flat and wooden this episode.  I wonder if they're getting tired of this.

Yeah- I especially thought the scene with Cisco, HR, and Wally had some odd choices. I don't know if the script was written that way or if that was a note from the director, or Carlos' read on it or what, but I just didn't see why Cisco would have been so angry with Wally and HR for even suggesting they vibe the future. Somebody thought the scene didn't play out as well without some forced drama? I thought I was watching an episode of Suits for a minute.

[Bats27]

Barry: “Trust me. I know what I’m doing.”

Would've been better if everyone in the room had burst out laughing.

[Rachel RSL]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Barry just standing there and doing nothing as Mr. Fastest Man Alive Savitar SLOWLY crawled out of the portal also annoyed the hell out of me too.

THIS!! I was sitting there yelling at my tv: "Don't just stand there smiling at it!" Barry could have sped over there and used his super speed to tie him up, lightning bolt his ass, punch him 1000 times, just plain SHOVE him back into the portal....a hundred different ways he could have ended things but, nope, he just stands there watching.

3 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

But that was relatively understandable compared to Wally's bizarre reaction. Why was he so angry about it, exactly?

I didn't get that either. First of all, would Wally even really notice she wasn't wearing her engagement ring and, even if he did, why the hell would he be so angry about it? Barry and Iris have been in love like forever, they already live together, they know she becomes Mrs. West-Allen in the future, it's not like this engagement came out of the blue. Are they all under the impression that, if not for the threat of Savitar, Barry never would have proposed? Sometimes I want to smack these characters, or maybe the writers. But somebody needs to be smacked! 

[Lantern7]

14 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I have to say, as much as I think the design of old Megatron Savitar is ugly, that practical suit they started using this episode looks much, much better than the CG they used to use for it (and still did during some of the action scenes).

Saw this. Thought of you guys. Kinda wish they'd use the Savitar design from the comic.

[Spaceman Spiff]

20 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think she was a dick for removing the engagement ring. She's right, in a sense, that Barry did propose out of fear. I think when Iris professed her love for Barry, it was somewhat out of fear, but also because she was just coming to the realization herself. Remember, once Barry changed the timeline, she didn't have that same realization. I think that Iris didn't want their engagement to be under false pretenses, in the sense that the reason for proposing was for other reasons. It doesn't seem like she broke up with him, judging from her touching his hand at the end of the episode, but just that she would rather get engaged when her life isn't in danger. She even rightfully called out Barry and her moving in together as being out of fear as well, because Barry had seen the future earlier that week and then they moved in together. 

If anything, Iris finally had agency of her own and I'm glad she spoke up. If I was her, I'd propose care why my boyfriend decided to propose. I think Iris realized that he was rushing through things to save her but what would happen if Savitar was defeated? I think her mindset was right in that Barry might not be ready for all these big steps. Iris and Barry still love each other but she didn't want their engagement to be tainted by Savitar, and in this case, it is. 

I get what you are saying. I think we can both agree that they love each other. But I think, regardless of the fear motivation, there is also love. From S1 Barry has stressed how much and how long he has loved Iris. But since his little jaunt to the future and seeing her die, and thinking that changing events will alter that future, everyone has been working toward that common goal in the episodes following that. So Barry recognizing that she didn't have a ring on, and then placing one her finger kills two birds with one stone. He gets to express his love by proposing, and gets a ring on her finger that wasn't there in the future he witnessed. Iris removing the ring just pushes that future closer to fruition, just because as @Latverian Diplomat says

 

20 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

Your precious love is not "tainted forever" Iris, Barry had idea that thought might save your life and he went with it. You know, like he's been dedicating himself to doing for weeks (months?) now.

So keep the ring on. You say you love the guy. You say you want to marry him. Keep the ring on. It may also be that Barry is afraid that their efforts aren't working out all that great to change the future and if Iris is destined to die, he wants to at least get the ring on the finger to show her how much he loves her. You know like the lifetime movie cancer patient who gets married even though they only have 2 months to live. MHO.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Spaceman Spiff

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I didn't get that either. First of all, would Wally even really notice she wasn't wearing her engagement ring and, even if he did, why the hell would he be so angry about it? Barry and Iris have been in love like forever, they already live together, they know she becomes Mrs. West-Allen in the future, it's not like this engagement came out of the blue. Are they all under the impression that, if not for the threat of Savitar, Barry never would have proposed? Sometimes I want to smack these characters, or maybe the writers. But somebody needs to be smacked! 

Wally was at least partially under Savitar's influence (assuming he is not himself Savitar). So Savitar could have focused Wally's attention on Iris being ringless and influenced Wally to be as upset about Barry's reason for proposing.

I could see why proposing for the "wrong reasons" could be bothersome, especially with it being done at least somewhat covertly. "I love you, I always have, and I always will" is different from "I love you, I always have, and I always will, and I figure that getting engaged might somehow prevent the timeline where you are killed without having an engagement ring on."

[rubyred]

Placing so much importance on whether or not Iris was wearing The Ring when Savitar kills her is so fucking dumb. There are any number of reasons why someone might not have a ring on at that particular moment, like it was getting sized, or she took it off to wash the dishes and Savitar grabbed her up, or a diamond came loose and it's at the jeweler's. I have a feeling this Ring Thing is going to be a dumb red herring and I'm already resenting the bait and switch that hasn't happened yet.

I've already given up on Supergirl and never watched Arrow, and the writing on this show is driving me away from The Flash too. At least with Legends it's so batshit I don't even attempt to follow the show "logic" (if there even is any, which I doubt BUT DON'T CARE CUZ IT'S FUN). Get it together, show!

[Rachel RSL]

26 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So Savitar could have focused Wally's attention on Iris being ringless and influenced Wally to be as upset about Barry's reason for proposing.

I suppose but...why? Not seeing Savitar's motive for that other than maybe he's just a dick who likes to mess with people.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Savitar needed to have Flash and Kid Flash have a rift so that a) he could taunt Kid Flash into taking the sliver of the Philosopher's Stone and throwing it into the Speed Force and b) Barry would be out of position to stop him.

Making Wally disproportionately angry about Barry's hidden motive for the engagement helped with that goal.

Also, Savitar is a dick who likes to mess with people.

[Trini]

I still like the 'Wally is Savitar' theory, but there are also a lot of clues that it could some alternate version of Barry. One thing that caught my attention was when Savitar mentioned Reverb -- Wally wasn't there for that, but Barry was.

 

13 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

... I'd burn the death outfit I was wearing too.

Oooh, I'm waiting for the reactions when everyone realizes Iris is wearing THAT outfit.
 

7 hours ago, doram said:

It's really weird. I don't know how script-writing for serial TV works, but if this were a novel, a good editor would spot all these goofs. The ideas, the broad strokes are solid --- but the details, the nuances are completely off.

It's like Barry swearing on his dead parent's "lives" again. Stupid mistakes that just jar one out of an otherwise compelling story. 

It's not the first (or second!) time they have stuff in one episode that contradicts (or ignores) stuff in the the one(s) before it. Is no one in charge of continuity?? Are they not watching the show?

I mean, however you feel about asking permission to marry, it was implied in the last episode that Barry had at least talked to Joe. ("Joe held on to [the ring] for me until tonight.") So then Joe being upset with Barry not asking permission was just confusing.

[Argenta]

11 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

That permission nonsense was unbearable. Iris is not Joe's property. It's the 21st century. Stop normalizing that kind of crap, show.

Preach it! I hate, hate, HATE this 'permission' thing that Joe seems to have going on. It is not up to him whether his daughter can get married or whether Barry can propose to her. It's bad enough Joe thinking he has the right to be 'asked' in the first place - and before Iris, too - and even worse when none of the other characters call him out on it. I can't imagine that people of Barry and Iris' age would just go along with this kind of antiquated nonsense.

10 hours ago, waving feather said:

I know Barry, Cisco and Caitlin are still salty about Eobard Thawne but I just realised how stupid they are in their decision making without him around. They really do need him. Harry from Earth-2 is smart enough but he is too emotional not as shrewd as Eobard.

Yes. The S.T.A.R. Labs team's collective IQ plummeted by several hundred points the second Eobard left them  :/

I feel bad for Wally and don't think he deserves that fate at all. I do find myself wondering, though, why being trapped in the Speed Force is such an awful thing. The characters talk about it like it's some sort of purgatory, but surely a speedster in particular should feel right at home there? It's the source of their powers, and it certainly didn't seem like a place of suffering when Barry was in there at the end of S2...

[ruby24]

Yeah, the whole permission thing was cringeworthy. I mean, come on, if it's an important family tradition they could at least change the word for "blessing" or something. She's not property.

[Ottis]

What. The Fuck. Happened to this show. So much butt hurt... Joe because Barry didn't ask permission. Iris because Barry asked her to marry him to save her life instead of Twu Luv. Julian because Caitlin kept a piece of the stone. Wally because he feels his powers aren't good enough. Good god, people, focus. Get over yourselves. If The Avengers did this, Earth would have fallen years ago. 

This constant stupid angst has just about closed the door on this show for me. Only Savitar's sudden hilarious wit - "Have you decided to worship me?" - saved the day. 

[benteen]

9 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

THIS!! I was sitting there yelling at my tv: "Don't just stand there smiling at it!" Barry could have sped over there and used his super speed to tie him up, lightning bolt his ass, punch him 1000 times, just plain SHOVE him back into the portal....a hundred different ways he could have ended things but, nope, he just stands there watching.

Exactly.

What was the purpose of Barry contacting Savitar again?  It seemed to serve no purpose other than giving Barry another opportunity to spike the football in the face of his enemy.  It was pure dick swinging once again.

[Simba122504]

Nothing about that bullshit line about Jesse caring more about a freaking ring instead of fighting?!  Who wrote that? That should never be said about a female superhero ever. It's sexist, disrespectful.  I missed the line but another viewer noticed it. This one was better than that 2 part Grodd episode. It had its issues but it moved the main arc forward. This was their darkest episode yet. Dark Zoom stuff failed. I doubt Savitar is Wally. Some think future Barry. Some think Eddie. Others think a new character we haven't meet yet. In comics Savitar doesn't have a name. Savitar is the owner of the coffee shop. I believe someone will die in the season finale. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Simba122504

[ruby24]

I think HR might die. Specifically because of the fact that he's pointed out as someone who lives. Makes me think he'll heroically sacrifice himself. 

Also I still think Julian's toast, since Caitlin has to go dark somehow. By the way, count me as one of those who thought it was really awful writing that no one besides Julian cared that she kept that stone. EVERYONE should have gone off on her for that, that was so much more of a betrayal than what Wally did.

[waving feather]

51 minutes ago, Ottis said:

What. The Fuck. Happened to this show. So much butt hurt... Joe because Barry didn't ask permission. Iris because Barry asked her to marry him to save her life instead of Twu Luv. Julian because Caitlin kept a piece of the stone. Wally because he feels his powers aren't good enough. Good god, people, focus. Get over yourselves. If The Avengers did this, Earth would have fallen years ago. 

This constant stupid angst has just about closed the door on this show for me. Only Savitar's sudden hilarious wit - "Have you decided to worship me?" - saved the day. 

Word. I'm actually tired of Grant's pretty cry face. Angsty Barry is the worst kind of Barry. I need him to stop with feeling guilty all the time and start doing the right thing. 

[Trini]

It was Jay Garrick's idea to throw the box/stone into the speedforce. I think he's got some 'splainin' to do.

[immortalfrieza]

12 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

THIS!! I was sitting there yelling at my tv: "Don't just stand there smiling at it!" Barry could have sped over there and used his super speed to tie him up, lightning bolt his ass, punch him 1000 times, just plain SHOVE him back into the portal....a hundred different ways he could have ended things but, nope, he just stands there watching.

It's always the result of extremely bad writing when the writers have to have the characters be morons in order for the plot to be able to work, but the worst part of that whole scene is how it was completely unnecessary to make Barry into a total moron with that scene in order to continue the plot. All they had to do was have Barry run up to the portal, grab Wally, try to pull him out, *YOINK!* Wally gets pulled out of his grip and vanishes into the portal, then have the portal hit him with a wave of energy or just have Savitar hit him coming out of the portal, then have Barry struggling to get up for a few seconds as Savitar climbs out of the portal, continue the episode as is. Same plot but the protagonist doesn't look idiotic, at least in that specific instance.

Apparently Savitar took a page out of Eobard Thrawne's book of supervillainy. Namely, "I am The Flash's enemy because the future says I'm The Flash's enemy." In other words, they both are supervillains for no actual reason, no self determination whatsoever.

15 hours ago, maxineofarc said:

Caitlin keeping the stone didn't seem like a "betrayal" to me so much as "just some dumb thing anybody on this show might do."

It fits on the stupid scale right next to throwing the philosopher's stone, the vessel containing Savitar's link to the world, straight into the very eternal force that gives Savitar his power in the first place. If Caitlin keeping a piece of the stone qualifies as a betrayal then Wally being dumb enough to throw that piece into the Speed Force (despite the fact that Savitar was literally telling Wally to do it and thus making it plain that's exactly what Savitar wanted) would count just a much.

I STILL don't see how changing extremely incidental details of Barry's view of the future such as giving Iris a ring could possibly do anything to change the future and how the characters could think that it would. Unless Savitar is deathly afraid of wedding rings and news headlines there's no reason for the team to ever believe any of it is going to save Iris. The whole group taking a vacation to the Bahamas for a few months would be much much more likely to prevent Savitar from killing Iris.

[Argenta]

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Unless Savitar is deathly afraid of wedding rings...

Hee hee. Well, he did show up in time to ruin Valentine's Day, so perhaps he's just really, really anti-romance. 

When he crawled out of the portal, it reminded me of Sadako/Samara crawling out of the TV screen in The Ring.

[zannej]

On 3/7/2017 at 8:14 PM, Trini said:

WHAAAAATTT

There needed to be a bigger, angrier reaction by everyone to Caitlin keeping part of the stone. This episode, man....

I was facepalming when they said Caitlin kept part of the stone. First of all, how did she even *get* part of the stone? Whenever someone opened the box it let Savitar out. So, they are trying to say that somehow Caitlin opened that box without letting Savitar out or while he was out and had the time to chip off a chunk of it? How was this powerful artifact eve able to be cut? That just didn't make sense.

At least Julian was justifiably miffed about it.

I do think that another part of the problem for me was in Danielle's acting. I've always found her to be the weakest link on the show in terms of acting performance and I don't really get any sense of her returning any interest in Julian (I know that she's opposed to Caitlin having romantic relationships and that actually sort of came across on screen). But, she also didn't really seem all that sorry or remorseful when she apologized. It just came off as somewhat insincere to me.

On a shallow note, she had some asymmetrical thing going on with her hair where a small portion of it was in a little bun and for some reason it distracted me and bugged the hell out of me.

On 3/7/2017 at 8:23 PM, Primal Slayer said:

This is one of those episodes where they are just doing things that dont make sense to get to their end point. Why didnt Jesse run after Wally? She is a speedster as well. Why didnt Barry run out to look for him once he heard that he was gone? He doesnt need to be standing right next to Cisco to hear him. He can zoom around the entire city in the amount of time it took Cisco to find Wally. Why did Barry just stare at Wally for a hot minute instead of going directly to him trying to save him?

Im just glad that Barry was SOOO heartbroken seeing Iris dying from a far that he was able to focus on her fingers to even know they werent engaged. Such a stupid plot to cause cheap drama.

After one of your friends changes reality causing a sibling to die and to turn one of them into a potential killer, this is like a walk in the park.

Yeah. The writing for Jesse in this one was pretty weak. There were a few things that were insulting to her and women in general. I totally agree about the problem with people just standing around doing nothing when they should be taking action.

I'm actually OK with Barry noticing that Iris didn't have a ring on her finger because he tried to re-evaluate and remember every detail when he went back there. So, he saw HR on the building and he probably paid attention to everything Iris was wearing.

Also, sometimes when a loved one dies, as sad as it is, you try to take in everything and remember that moment and how they looked and sometimes you hold their hands. I had the misfortune of finding my father dead a few years ago and (after unsuccessful CPR and waiting for the paramedics to arrive and call it) I just held his hands and tried to cement in my memory how it felt to hold them because I knew I would never get to hold them again.

On 3/7/2017 at 9:14 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Ah, so Barry was about to unmask Savitar like a Scooby Doo villain and then something gets in the way...namely, Savitar's claw. It feels like that particular moment is implying that we'll recognize who it is. I'm calling it now; Savitar will have the face of someone we know. I first thought maybe Eddie, but it could be any recurring character we've seen. Or Barry, as others are calling out. 

Hey! Iris gets good material this episode! Namely, a scene with her dad without Barry or Wally, and a scene where she gets the majority of the dialogue and it's about herself mostly! See, show? Not every female character has to be attached to a man and be a prop. 

All I can see now with Savitar is that he's Voldemort and Barry is Harry Potter. The similarities are just screaming at me, and I know it's really because of Tom Felton. But the whole "both cannot live at the same time" is just so Harry Potter'ish.

I'm normally not a fan of HR, but I did enjoy his small scene with Jesse. I was also really happy to get a Jesse solo scene after Wally's fate worse than death. 

Oh, show. You KNOW that Caitlin has a history with love interests dying or becoming evil. Now I'm starting to think that Julian will survive, but he'll leave town. I'd rather that than his death. It would also just reinforce that Caitlin shouldn't ever be in a romance. That being said, as disappointed as I am in Caitlin only getting love interests and that seems to be her only true purpose on this show, the brief kiss between them was cute. Julian is truly a fantastic character who I will miss if they do end up killing him off.

Damn, that does suck for Wally. As stupid as they've made him, he didn't deserve being lost in the Speed Force.  Well, now Wally's not the one to save Iris from Savitar. Maybe the third speedster's the charm here? 

You know, maybe it's because we've seen so many instances now of people in danger on this show, but wasn't the reaction to Wally's demise....fairly tame? Everyone just stood around, especially Barry, and did nothing. Wally was even trapped in the portal for well over thirty seconds. And...nothing. There was more reaction to Barry's demise last season. Different situations, but still. 

LOL! I thought of Scooby Doo as well!

I have to agree on many of the points-- particularly the ones I bolded.

I'm trying to decide if Savitar is Barry or Wally. Could be either one and they've just gone supremely insane. Leaning a bit more toward Wally. Other potentials are Harry (if he somehow decides to give himself speed to try to help his daughter) or Jay. But, at this point I'm thinking that it's Wally and he is too crazy to remember that he used to be Wally and that he trapped himself.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:19 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Of all the lies that were told in this episode, I think the winner goes to Barry's "Trust me, I know what I'm doing."  Even on your best day, that really is true, Barry.  And I say this with love, I swear.

So, basically, everything went south tonight.  Turns out the marriage proposal was partially because Barry realized that Iris didn't have a wedding ring in the future, so figured, hey, maybe that would change things!  I mean, yeah, I'm sure he truly does love her.  Really, I do.  But, yeah, that motivation is really going to put a damper on things.  And, of course, he kept it from her, only for Wally to blab it after he Vibed into the future, and Barry pissed him off being being a grade A jackass earlier (even if he was right on some levels.)  So, no she's back to not wearing a ring.  Way to go, Barry.

That said, I was rolling my eyes hard at how Joe (and later Iris) were upset because Barry didn't ask Joe for "permission."  That's still a thing?  Well, I guess for someone as old-fashioned as Joe, it would be.  But anytime that is brought up, I keep thinking about the Alias pilot when Syd's fiancee asked Jack Bristow for his, and Jack basically scoffed and was all "Like I really have any say in this matter."  Oh, Jack Bristow.

Savitar's premonitions continue to bare fruit.  Caitlin was the one who "betrayed" the team, by revealing she kept part of the stone in a failed attempt to get rid of her powers.  And it is good old Wally who suffers a "fate worse then death", by being forced into the Speed Force, now that Savitar is back in business.  I'm totally down with the theories that Savitar will end up being Future Wally.  Considering how little I care for him, I might actually be down with him turning heel.

I see Julian is no longer Alchemy but the "Human Ouija Board" now.  Poor Julian.  Casting Tom Felton has been the best thing they've done so far for this season.  Really hope he doesn't die, since he clearly is Caitlin's love interest now (even if it's been put on hold, now that he feels like she only wanted him around to get rid of her powers.)

H.R. was actually funny this go around.  Enjoyed his banter with Cisco, even if it hasn't reach Cisco/Harry levels.

Not sure what to think about this episode.  A lot of advancement and changes, but it kind of required everyone to be hit with the stupid stick at least once.

LOL. Yeah, Barry just has no idea what he's doing half the time. Even when he thinks he knows what he's doing, he doesn't know what he's doing.

I had to roll my eyes at the "permission" thing.

So, there will still be at least one death. And we know it isn't supposed to be HR since Savitar said he would "unfortunately" survive.

I'm really loving Tom Felton on this show and I hope he sticks around. His character is interesting and flawed in the right ways. He's not a coward, but he has reasonable fears. He doesn't have all of the answers, but he's also not a complete dumbass. I hope they nix any idea of him with Caitlin because that is just a death knell. Plus there just isn't a chemistry there.

On 3/7/2017 at 11:37 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I laughed so hard when he said that. Yes, Barry , you know what you're doing. Like when you tell your identity to anyone who passes you on the street, or when you almost destroyed the world back in season 1, or whenever you mess with the timeline without any consideration for anyone else, or when you see Wally getting sucked into the Speedforce and YOU JUST STAND THERE WATCHING. Oh, yeah, you totally know what you're doing. 

The one thing Barry did do right was ignoring that archaic and sexist social rule of asking the father's permission to marry his daughter and both Joe and Iris were upset with him for not doing it. When he proposes again (you know he will), he'll probably ask permission and it will be presented as him doing it right. Cue eye rolls. 

I have to agree on both of these points.

On 3/8/2017 at 1:07 AM, Rascotes said:

Why did Barry just stand there while Wally was holding that Jesus pose in front of the speed force portal?  You'd think he would have grabbed the kid or something instead of standing there with this "If only there was something I could do!" expression.

I'm totally on board with the Wally being Savitar theory.  

Random note:  I am expecting Draco to be killed but I hope not.  I didn't love the character at first but the guy really does manage to own every scene he's in.  They should make him a regular.

Yeah. Barry just standing there with his thumb figuratively up his ass just didn't make sense. Yeah, he could have frozen for a split second-- but his brain works at superspeed so he should have been able to think of something to do. Run over and grab Wally's hand or *something*. But nooo. He just stood there looking stupid.

I really hope they keep Felton around.

18 hours ago, waving feather said:

That's basically the theme of this season for me. 

I hope now that Wally is gone, Jesse would look at Team Flash and go "what a shit-show" and then travel back to join her dad in Earth-2. 

I know Barry, Cisco and Caitlin are still salty about Eobard Thawne but I just realised how stupid they are in their decision making without him around. They really do need him. Harry from Earth-2 is smart enough but he is too emotional not as shrewd as Eobard.

And a really sad thing is-- if Barry and Cisco weren't so furious at Eobard, they could have been good allies. Eobard was a great mentor and strategist. If it weren't for the killing Barry's mother thing (which younger Eobard had not done yet when Barry went off on him) and the hand through the heart thing (which was undone by Barry's time traveling), they really wouldn't have any major bones to pick with him-- at least younger him who hadn't done all of that stuff yet. Sure, Eobard is casual about killing (at least when it comes to people who have "been dead centuries"), but he enjoyed helping and he grew to love Barry and Cisco. It's too bad they can't find a way to bring him back as an ally.

18 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I really wanted Barry to say: "Joe, you know I respect you and I love hearing the story about your parents (grandparents?), but it's 2017. Things have changed since your parents and grandparents were alive." But at least it's a nice callback to Eddie and how he asked for Joe's blessing, but Joe really took it as giving permission. Even without mentioning Eddie by name, that's all I could think about. 

I do want to know why Savitar keeps referring to HR as The Pretender. It has to be significant, right? I'm going to laugh if Savitar is Earth 1 Real Harrison Wells, or he's HR's assistant from E19. 

Yeah. Barry being expected to ask for permission as if Iris was not a grown woman who can make her own decisions... Like she's Joe's property or something... That was idiotic. Asking for Joe's blessing would have been one thing-- even though that is still outdated.

The HR stuff was very interesting. Savitar seriously seems to hate him. I wonder if there is something he does to fail the team that led to Savitar being trapped. And asserting that HR lives was also interesting. I wonder if he's lying in any way and if HR actually dies. Or if HR dying (by sacrificing himself for others) ends up changing events to help stop Savitar.

I keep thinking of the song "The Pretender" by The Platters. I also think if the TV series with Michael T. Weiss.

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I still like the 'Wally is Savitar' theory, but there are also a lot of clues that it could some alternate version of Barry. One thing that caught my attention was when Savitar mentioned Reverb -- Wally wasn't there for that, but Barry was.

Oooh, I'm waiting for the reactions when everyone realizes Iris is wearing THAT outfit.

It's not the first (or second!) time they have stuff in one episode that contradicts (or ignores) stuff in the the one(s) before it. Is no one in charge of continuity?? Are they not watching the show?

I mean, however you feel about asking permission to marry, it was implied in the last episode that Barry had at least talked to Joe. ("Joe held on to [the ring] for me until tonight.") So then Joe being upset with Barry not asking permission was just confusing.

Wally was probably filled in about the whole Reverb thing though. Or in his time trapped in the speedforce, perhaps Savitar was able to see things that happened.

Yeah. It would be hilarious if Iris walked out in that outfit and Barry shrieked something like "Take that off right now!" Bonus points if he zips her home and changes her clothes for her at superspeed. LOL. Maybe Barry's best way to keep Iris from ending up like she did in that death scene is to find a way to keep her naked or something. :P (not that what she was wearing would have any impact on what happened)

From what I understand there is a script coordinator that goes over the broad strokes of the scripts to try to make sure there are no major continuity things-- like making sure that if a person is dead in one episode they aren't written as alive in the next. But on a lot of shows, things slip through the cracks. Especially when it comes to smaller details that might get fleshed out at table reads or during filming. I've heard of dialog being changed/added during filming because the director felt that something wasn't working or didn't make sense. And that is something a script coordinator wouldn't get to remedy ahead of time.

I'm guessing that Barry knew where the ring was and went and took it.

6 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Nothing about that bullshit line about Jesse caring more about a freaking ring instead of fighting?!  Who wrote that? That should never be said about a female superhero ever. It's sexist, disrespectful.  I missed the line but another viewer noticed it. This one was better than that 2 part Grodd episode. It had its issues but it moved the main arc forward. This was their darkest episode yet. Dark Zoom stuff failed. I doubt Savitar is Wally. Some think future Barry. Some think Eddie. Others think a new character we haven't meet yet. In comics Savitar doesn't have a name. Savitar is the owner of the coffee shop. I believe someone will die in the season finale. 

Thank you! I saw that nobody else was bringing that up, but then you mentioned it. I actually paused the episode (since I watch online-- for some reason my local stations don't have CW and I don't know why). I was a bit like Kyle's Mom from South Park "What Whaaaaaat?" Seriously? Jesse was too preoccupied with a fucking ring to go fight crime? Fucking REALLY? Now, I'm not one of those people who sees sexism everywhere and constantly gets butthurt over things, but this was truly insulting. I had to remind myself that it was Wally's take on the situation and that maybe it was just Wally's excuse to not disturb Jesse. I'd like to think that if they had said there was a fire that Jesse would have forgotten about that ring in a hot second and zipped off to help. So I'm going to fanwank that somehow Wally, being the young inexperienced guy that he is, was worried that Jesse would get hurt somehow or maybe had enough ego that he didn't want more competition for who put the fire out faster and made that up to leave Jesse behind. Because if the writers were seriously implying that a woman (albeit a young one) couldn't put aside something that silly to go take care of something serious, then I would have a major problem with them. But newsflash to the writers: Not all women give a fuck about jewelry (or shoes, jewelry, babies, children, romance, and other shit that stereotypical female characters are often enamored with).

[Mellowyellow]

Just had to add I loved the Jesse and HR hug. Was so sweet! I love every incarnation of Wells! It's the highlight of a new season of Flash for me. Which Wells will they bring over!?

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Just had to add I loved the Jesse and HR hug. Was so sweet! I love every incarnation of Wells! It's the highlight of a new season of Flash for me. Which Wells will they bring over!?

What made that especially sweet was that HR admitted that he wasn't anything like Jesse's father and had no idea what Harry would say to comfort her, but she still hugged him anyway because he was as close to a representation of her father as she was going to get.

[Trini]

I'm not as upset as some for Barry standing there (he could have been sucked in too), but it definitely a writing/directing/editing FAIL. They could have framed it differently (as suggested by a few people here) and gotten the same result.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Trini
I've got my own editing fails!

[KirkB]

53 minutes ago, Trini said:

I not as upset as some for Barry standing there (he could have been sucks in too), but it definitely a writing/directing/editing FAIL. They could have framed it differently (as suggested by a few people here) and gotten the same result.

I agree. I think it would have been better if Barry tried to get Wally and was zapped or knocked back. Then while he's down, stunned, Savitar manages to get out. The way it was shot it came across like Barry should have been able to do something and just couldn't be bothered, which was presumably not their intention.

Edited March 10, 2017 by KirkB

[phoenics]

Last season I had this theory that Jay (before we found out he was Hunter) would take so much Velocity 9 that he would become Zoom and it would be this Terminator-esque situation.

Pretty sure that's what this season is with Savitar - and it's Barry who is Savitar, he just doesn't know it yet.  The only way to make Barry turn so dark and so bad would be to kill Iris.  Wally wouldn't kill Iris - that just doesn't make sense.  It's Iris who grounds Barry - Iris who stopped Barry from killing Grodd in the last episode when he felt like nothing he could do would help him win so all he could do was kill - Iris who broke Barry free from mind control... Iris who seemed to inspire his first time travel in S1.  So many seminal flash moments have come about because of Iris - imagine if she died?  Barry would go dark in a heartbeat - and I'm pretty sure that's what creates Savitar.  Savitar clearly wants to be created - so he knows the only way to break Barry enough to become him is to kill Iris.

I wonder if Barry will be so desperate to get fast enough to save Iris that he does something with the stone and that creates Savitar?  

I'm "Team Barry is Savitar".

I has a sad about Barry and Iris though... that actually physically hurt.

[notagain]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Last season I had this theory that Jay (before we found out he was Hunter) would take so much Velocity 9 that he would become Zoom and it would be this Terminator-esque situation.

Pretty sure that's what this season is with Savitar - and it's Barry who is Savitar, he just doesn't know it yet.  The only way to make Barry turn so dark and so bad would be to kill Iris.  Wally wouldn't kill Iris - that just doesn't make sense.  It's Iris who grounds Barry - Iris who stopped Barry from killing Grodd in the last episode when he felt like nothing he could do would help him win so all he could do was kill - Iris who broke Barry free from mind control... Iris who seemed to inspire his first time travel in S1.  So many seminal flash moments have come about because of Iris - imagine if she died?  Barry would go dark in a heartbeat - and I'm pretty sure that's what creates Savitar.  Savitar clearly wants to be created - so he knows the only way to break Barry enough to become him is to kill Iris.

I wonder if Barry will be so desperate to get fast enough to save Iris that he does something with the stone and that creates Savitar?  

I'm "Team Barry is Savitar".

I has a sad about Barry and Iris though... that actually physically hurt.

I agree, this was my reasoning too. 

[mac123x]

On 3/8/2017 at 7:37 AM, JohnnyGilda said:

Yeah, keep the ring and maybe change your hair color or something.

I went into this episode thinking that it's Wally, but then they leaned so hard in that direction...and I hadn't thought about Jesse Quick as a possibility, so, now I'm less convinced. Well-played.

 

Burn the death outfit, dye my hair and get it cut really short so it wouldn't have time to grow back, and maybe take a short vacation to Earth 2 until after the death date.  I'm sure she could stay in Jesse's old room for a few days.  Or Earth-whichever and hang out with Kara Danvers.

The voice actor for Savitar sounded an awful lot like HR to me, but that makes even less sense than either Future!Barry or Wally.  Maybe Future!Barry in the future sacrifices himself to get Wally out of the speed-force prison and thus goes insane and becomes Savitar. 

Temporal mechanics gives me a headache.

[Grace19]

This is one of the best episodes this season, wrong directing choice and bad writing prevented it from being a perfect episode. The story was there, emotions were high, they had everything, then they ruined it. Anyways, I still enjoyed it.

This was a big wally episode, I loved that the gravity of his sister's life completely depending on him finally started weighing on him, until this episode he had not grasped how huge that was. And predictably, he started loosing it, and Barry being a dick to him left him vulnerable to saviter's manipulations. I don't blame wally for throwing the stone into the speed force, as far as he knows the remaining piece must be the reason savitar was not completely gone. But I do blame him for not informing the rest which have already figured out that the last piece was what was keeping savitar imprisoned.

I understand iris putting off the engagement, but I still understand why Barry did what he did, both were right.

I love Julian I hope he doesn't die.

While Caitlin's action ended up being a good thing, it doesn't make sense that Barry would go off on wally for not saying anything about seeing savitar and then say nothing about Caitlin keeping the stone, especially as far as they knew then, not getting rid of the whole stone was a bad thing.

Barry just standing there as wally screamed for help was terrible, I don't even blame Barry, I blame the director, they could at least made Barry try to pull wally out, but can't.

The person I feel for the most after this episode is Joe, he just lost a son, and may loose a daughter too, he must be really messed up.

[Grace19]

Now about who savitar might be,

50% chance its barry

30% chance its wally

10% chance its eddie

10% chance its someone we've not met.

I choose Barry as most likely, because of the following:

Savitar said its you or me, that means he's existence depends on Barry, as a matter of fact, he also said something like that to iris, so Iris needs to die and Barry have to watch her die to become savitar.

"From my perspective you are the villain". Barry created flash point, which savitar must feel was not a heroic thing to do.

The mention of flashpoint might not be a coincides, this season started with flash point and I feel like it was not properly concluded, and that the season's arc must be somehow related to it, so savitar might be Flashpoint's Barry or another version of Barry created as a result of flashpoint.

And finally, " your greatest enemy was not reverse flash or zoom, but me". I believe that Barry worst enemy is himself. He created most of his broblems, he constantly makes the wrong decisions, and I believe for him to become a great hero, he has to defeat himself.

[Al Herkimer]

On 3/8/2017 at 9:14 AM, Latverian Diplomat said:

That permission nonsense was unbearable. Iris is not Joe's property. It's the 21st century. Stop normalizing that kind of crap, show.

 

I'm my culture it's already normal, it doesn't need to be normalized.  I think that's something I must share with Joe and Wally along with many millions of (non-tv character) Americans and others all over the world.

[tennisgurl]

The "From my point of view YOUR the villain" just made me think of Hayden Christensen screaming "From my point of the view the Jedi are evil!" like he's the worst member of his high schools debate team. Not the best reference for your Big Bad.

Everyone on this damn show needs to sit around every day and have a fucking sharing circle. No one will apparently ever learn that keeping secrets from each other is bad and has literally never ended well ever. Were they all absent that day of kindergarten?

Julian is just great. I felt awful for him, it was a real dick move to get him to download Savitar or whatever. The poor guy almost lost his mind last time, and they ask him to put himself through that again, when they could have probably come up with something better? That sucks.

Barry and Iris break the engagement. That's depressing. Also depressing is Joe getting that pissed off about Barry not asking his permission to marry Iris. She is a grown ass person Joe, and Barry is already pretty much your son, so why would he need to ask? I can see people doing that as kind of a cute thing, but he acted like it was actually necessary! She doesn't have a dowry dude.

Barry just standing there like a moron while Wally was sucked up cracked me the hell up. I don't blame Barry, I blame the directing in that scene. They couldn't have even TRIED to let him try to get to Wally? Wouldn't Barry desperately trying and failing to save Wally be more dramatic anyway? It was like that time Oliver and Ray left Roy's unconscious body in an alley after a fight. It wasn't the characters, it was bad directing and choreography.

Edited March 12, 2017 by tennisgurl

[DigitalCount]

Maybe that's why Savitar blames Barry, because he noticed how Barry couldn't be bothered to save him from being sucked into the Speed Force. In fact, considering that that Barry was Future Barry to the Barry Savitar talked to (five minutes in the future is still the future, as Austin Powers taught me) perhaps we actually did just see the incident that Savitar is referring to.

Just watched this one, finally. I spent about 75% of this episode thinking Wally was Savitar, and was totally ready to come here and blow those Barry is Savitar theories out of the water. Then I got disappointed because everyone has already gotten there. Ah, the joys of pride. :) The biggest thing for me was that they went to so much trouble to show how much faster Wally had gotten, to the point where he's now as fast as Savitar...hmm. And then they said that Savitar created himself...hmm. And that Savitar lost his mind from being trapped where Wally now is...hmm. I really can't see him being anyone but Wally, except for the fact that Wally is too short to be him. :P

[Grace19]

I just watched a video that made strong points of savitar being HR, hmmm...

[AudienceofOne]

Wally is Savitar. I've called it before and I'm calling it again. 

On 08/03/2017 at 4:48 AM, Mellowyellow said:

I didn't think it was that bad. She becomes Iris West Allen in the future anyway. It's destiny so might as well be practical about it.  I'd be welding that ring onto my finger in an attempt to change things. I'd burn the death outfit I was wearing too.

Plus, we had Iris' super romantic "I guess I have to bow to destiny" speech when they got together so I don't know why she'd be upset. Bowing to the force of history was the reason she agreed to be with him in the first place. Plus, I wouldn't proposing to somebody you were going to marry anyway to save their life down there with the world's worst proposals.

[Airraz0r]

My thoughts: I knew Wally would be preyed upon when he ended up in that husk a few episodes back & Savitar would've escaped somehow. Didn't know that Caitlin was holding a fragment of the stone. She believes that she betrayed them by hiding it, but the irony is she kept Savitar from getting out of the speed force even sooner & prevented Barry from being trapped in there. What Caitlin did was like inducing the triple play in baseball where more damage could've ensue from the mid season finale. In other words, Caitlin saved Barry again.

[Trini]

This episode had way too many plot twists. They needed to spread them out -- or give hints in previous episodes. Pretty sure the whole thing with Caitlin and the piece of the stone that could free Savitar wasn't planned until this episode.

I feel like they threw several nearly all the characters under the bus just to get from Point A to Point B (free Savitar).