S03.E14: He Made A Terrible Mistake / S03.E15: Wes

[love2lovebadtv]

On 2/24/2017 at 8:22 AM, doram said:

Charles Mahoney looked age appropriate to be Wes's Dad in the 10-years-ago flashbacks. Some rich white guy in his late-twenties (or going by the actor's age, early thirties) is just about right to be a frat boy raping a vulnerable black girl.

Rose always struck me as a very young mother, anyway. I always found it incongruous that she had a ten-year old but I guess, that was the point after all.

In retrospect, it's clear that the Mahoney Snrs knew about this, and kept a strangle-hold on Rose's life because of it. It's becoming more and more clear why she felt that the only option left to her was suicide.

I didn't take rose to be a young mother.  She looked to be in her thirties. But Charles Jr.  Doesn't look old enough to be Wes' father.  Young Wes, sure.  But I don't see him being the father of a man who's old enough to have graduated from college. 

What I'm trying to remember is whether Rose ever said she was raped. Or did we conclude that because she was clearly afraid of the family?  In my half asleep state I was confused by the scene where Mrs. Mahoney and Mahoney Jr. run into Wes and his mom. I'll need to re-watch. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by love2lovebadtv

[twoods]

2 hours ago, Layne said:

They were together for 3 weeks. 

Was it really that short of a time? For some reason I thought it was longer. Eh, you can be in love after a week (and 12 years later, married with kids). Plus, they were into each other well before they got together. I don't blame her for being upset at Wes being the fall guy since he is the father of her child. I still stand by my prior delusional claim!

Edited February 25, 2017 by twoods

[starri]

This is probably going to sound cold-blooded, but I'm really glad we weren't actually in Jon Snow territory here.  There was so many people speculating that this was just an elaborate fake-out, and I'm happy it wasn't.

[PepSinger]

Why are there spoiler tags in a thread about the episode it is supposedly spoiling?

[Cigale]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

Good job @sisterspoon. I'm sure when you posed that people shot it down by mentioning comments by the Laurel actress about the new, non drug kingpin criminal direction they were taking her family. They good people now! lol

Well thank you @jvr!  

[Milaxx]

23 hours ago, doram said:

Can we count the twists:

1. Mahoneys having nothing to do with Wes's death.
2. Mahoney Snr NOT being a rapist/Wes's Dad --- that was Mahoney Jnr.
3. DA being involved in this ...somehow (I'm still not sure just how dirty his hands had got).
4. Laurel's dad being #WhoKilledWes
5. Michaela saying 'I love you' back. (I needed to put one happy thing in this list.)

 

Poor, poor Wes. He fought so hard. He almost made it. Bloody hell. 

I'm not so convinced that the Mahoney's had nothing to do with Wes death. Sylvia may have had nothing to do with it but I coud see Charles being in cahoots with someone like Laurl's dad and the 2 of them doing a quid pro quo murder exchange

23 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think the DA had anything to do with Wes's murder, he was just dirty.

I go back and forth on this but mostly I think he just really hates AK and wanted to take her down. As such he was easily manipulated and bought by Laurel's dad.

23 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Remind me please how Laurel's dad knew Wes or about him. 

When Laurel went to see her father she discovered he was keeping tabs on her. It took him no time to locate Frank, finding Wes wouldn't be a stretch. 

23 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

So clearly Laurel's father just can be some big man in the tech. industry right? Isn't that what she claimed when Oliver made that stereotypical comment about what her father  did?

Clearly Laurel doesn't have the 411 on jack shit in terms of what her father is really about, and when she finds out he had Wes killed, she's going to end up committed just like her mother, because she's going to lose it.

He's in tech but does government business. From the conversation he and Laurel had about him being more concerned with his "drones and bombs" than her I assume it's something to do with the military. Likely borderline shady.

23 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

What the hell was THAT? Weren't we told that Karla Souza fought hard against her character's family being the mafia/cartel stereotype? And now we find out that her father put a hit on her boyfriend of 5 minutes (he had more of a problem with WES than FRANK?!!) for...what exactly?

So I'm guessing she lost the fight? 

I don't think it's that black and white. Her father doesn't run a drug cartel, but his Sound like he does military tech like maybe Lockehead-Martin or something. However on this show everyone is s little unscrupulous so a little murder on the side is pretty much the norm.

23 hours ago, Snickerdoodle said:

I don't watch this show regularly...and really I love to hate this show.  But everytime I watch Annalise  says, "I'm doing this for you!"  Every.time.  She's only known those kids for 3 years or so when they walked into her class.  Why is she doing this for them?  What exactly is she doing?  Getting them into more trouble? Ugh. *rolls eyes like Laurel*

To be honest it was always more like doing it for Wes, however as they are all pretty much implicated and intertwined together, keeping Wes safe, meant keeping them all safe.

23 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So that's a lot of information to process. Granted, the finale was two hours.

So, Laurel's dad is behind Wes' death, so that's going to cause a bigger rift with them. And Dominic is a family friend? Or ex boyfriend of Laurel's? But hey, we get to see more of the Mahoneys since nobody knows about Dominic being the killer and Laurel's dad ordering the hit. Plus, Charles is Wes' bio dad? So...wait, Charles would have been eighteen or something when it happened? He was at least early twenties since Wes should have been around nineteen/twenty when he was murdered. 

So...I might have given my TV the middle finger for that Annalise confession at the end. So, they're really going there with the Wes is Annalise's son theory that I thought they ended a while ago? Really, show? Not a twist, just annoying. I'd like to think it's another fakeout. It's just odd to end the finale on that particular note. 

Connor is proposed to by Oliver. Blech. But Asher and Michaela love each other! Aww!

So, we're definitely getting some more background on Laurel next season. Can we get some background on Connor too? Because Jack got some excellent material to work with tonight and he's extremely talented as an actor. I'd like to think that Connor will turn down Oliver's proposal so he can get his own shit figured out. Plus, we can't have happy couples on this show. Happiness means death. That being said, leave Asher/Michaela alone, show. Let them be happy.

Also, I guess we'll still get some more of Wes/Alfred next season. There's still a LOT to be uncovered, like who he was calling that afternoon and who would know his name. Was he calling Charles Mahoney, perhaps? Or Charles' mother? She did say that there's so much that Annalise still didn't know. 

I'll be honest; Laurel's gotten on my nerves. I guess I just am not here for the "woe is me" Laurel, the one that assumes that she knows Wes best and everyone else couldn't care less. Her grief is understandable, I guess, but it doesn't mean I'm still not annoyed by it all. 

I don't thin Laurel's dad id really worried about them being estranged. I do think Wes got killed because of that paper Laurel signed.

I don't think the show is saying or trying to imply that Wes was AK's bio child. It's just AK finally admitting to herself that she loved him like a son.

I don't think Connor is going to say yes to Oliver's proposal. At least I hope he doesn't. TBH Connor kind of looked like he was thinking, "damn I just wanted to get laid." when Oliver propose. That said these still have a lot of work, growing to do before they are ready to get married.  I feel like now that Oliver knows everything Connor finally is looking at him as a real person, not some idolized St Oli. I was happy to see Oliver repeated stick up for Connor, but no way are these 2 ready to get married. Also how crazy must Thomas think they are? Can you imagine Thomas getting a call from Olive, " Um how long were you screwing my boyfriend? All night or just a few hours? Just a couple of hours? Okay, thank, bai!"

23 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

Maybe Mr. Castillo is a Mahoney cousin five times removed.  He killed Wes as a favor to the Mahoneys in return for them leaving Laurel/the remaining Keating group alone.

I guess we will get more info next season about who "Christophe" called for help and what "more to it" was going on that Mama Mahoney referred to but didn't bother to explain to Annalise.  That was the other thing that seriously ticked me off - the scene with Mama Mahoney and Annalise.  Okay, bitch, if there's "so much more that you don't know about" or however she put it, then how about TELL Annalise what it is instead of walking away all mysterious like.  I hated that.

I am still kind of confused about Atwood and Denver's level of involvement in all this.  Didn't Denver chew Atwood out for sending Wes' body away?  Who gave the order to cremate it?

It seems to me that Sylvia was saying Charles was one of those good for nothing afluenza teens with rich parents always bailing them out of trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if Charles has some side hustle going with Laurel's dad. I'm think Sylvia is the one Christophe was calling. I bet she tried to see Wes on the side. I think Laurel's dad paid off Denver. I think Denver used Atwood's thirst to beat AK at her own game lead to her making stupid mistakes. I think Laurel's dad bribed the ME's office. Hence the changing story about We being dead before the fire. They bribed them after that initial assessment. It was the ME who had the body cremated after Atwood had it moved. 

23 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Oh, I forgot about Asher and those damn Cheetos, good lord that was funny.

I wish they had kept it Philly and had him eating a big sloppy hoagie in one of those eating scenes.

22 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

Charles would have been in his teens when he used his position of power to rape Wes' mother.  How is that implausible?

It's a stretch but I'm think 15/16 on Spring break/vacation impregnates young Haitain girl, parent bring her stateside to cover up keep an eye on her. I think Charles as played is supposed to be mid - high 30's 15+12+10 = 37

22 hours ago, pennben said:

...

I've found I'm better off just letting it all unfold, rather than trying to figure it out, especially knowing the writers are often figuring it out as they go  

This show makes me laugh out loud so often....Annalise's looks at Bonnie in the courtroom, Asher declaring his love for Michaela in the midst of this mess, her responding "I love you too" when she did, Frank kneeling at Annalise's feet. It has just the right of batshit to bring me joy!

I agree, but I like speculating even though I know the show will almost always pull something from left field.

Asher & Micheala's romance is the best thing this show has going for it.

22 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Funny thing is I got why Sylvia bailed, and felt it was Annalise who should've gone after her. Sylvia wants to avenge her husband and protect her son, but Annalise at the time believed she needed Sylvia to agree to a truce. Once Sylvia dropped the bomb that Charles was Wes' father, Annalise wasn't really letting her explain anything. Between her talking over and trying to verbally outshout Sylvia as she unleashed her anger and pain and grief and firmly believing that Sylvia was complicit in everything Wallace did to her, Annalise wasn't going to listen in her emotional state. She'd been waiting 10 years to lash out about the death of her son and suddenly Sylvia tries to tell her that the truth Annalise knew wasn't what really happened? Like Laurel about Wes in present day, she wasn't open to hearing anything else and she wasn't going to be rational nor pick up on the cues that there were gaps in what Annalise believed and what Sylvia knew. Annalise dug in her heels and wasn't going to budge and Sylvia knew that and knew that they were now making a scene and she sure as hell wasn't going to air the full story there. She let it slip about Charles being the father because she was so shocked that Annalise had it wrong and then Annalise really went on the attack to where Sylvia retreated because she was spinning from the realization that Annalise was coming from a completely different place than she had originally believed and had to regroup from the confrontation and not let it escalate to an even bigger scene in public. 

Later, when Annalise processed it all, you could see her logical mind believing it even as she hated conceding even a bit of the righteous anger at the Mahoney collective. 

I really think Sylvia had more to say about her Charles. She might even have owned up to some of he ain't shitness. She may even have admitted to having reached out to Wes and we could have gotten confirmation that she was one who Christophe called. AK jumped the gun on that .

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

Why did Laurel need Michaela to lure Mahoney? Couldn't Laurel do it herself?

I think it was implying that Charles like Black girls.

14 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

I don't know if I'll stick with the show through Season 4.  It's not just that they killed Wes with what appears to be no real game plan, motivation or plot, it's that I now can no longer even offer a passable level of support for Annalise.  She loved Wes "like a son," but she not only threw him under the bus with the quickness, but she did it to save herself and that worthless piece of crap, Connor, who I personally wouldn't open a stick of gum for.  By episode's end, I officially can't stand him or Oliver and the worst thing that can happen to either of them is to be saddled with the scummy awefullness that is the other.  To make matters worse, Annalise actually allowed Frank, who had already sacrificed himself on the alter of Annalise to get on his knees and grovel before her.  Lady, GTF over yourself.  It's a sad day when Momma Mahoney comes across as the better mother.

Naturally, by next season, Annalise will be back in full force at the university.  In actuality, she should be an unemployable pariah, who is trying desperately to redeem herself.  There should be no students who want to study at her feet, Annalise should be scraping herself up fro,m the legal and academic pits, but I doubt that will happen.

Plot Points That May or May Not Be Revisited

1) So Meggy served no purpose on the show.   

2) The same goes for Lauren Velez's character, who played the least effective spy eve, what was she able to tell Atwood that someone who walked past Annalise on the street one time didn't already know.

3) Are we ever going to know the University Board member who was plotting against Annalise, or was that another red herring.

4) Atwood gets to skate, no doubt the show will think it's is a brilliant idea to brin g her back at a later time, but I can tell you, it will not be, as I'm over her character.  

5) Benito Martinez as the DA also needs to never be seen again.  The show needs to stop propping Annalise by making every prosecutor the equivalent of human garbage.  Let's see how the Annalise show plays when she is facing an opponent who is a good person, honestly trying to do their job.  

6) Simon or whatever his name is needs to never be seen again either.  He never worked as a character, and he will not be acceptable as a Wes substitute. Speaking of Simon, will we ever find out the real motive behind putting up the flyers because the motive he gave Annalise was some straight fragglenacklebull.  Was this connected to the possibly dropped board member plot.

Yeah, can you tell that this finale has left me more than a little bitter.  However, in the face of my bitterness, I still want Asher and Michaela to be the endgame couple, and I want the triumvirate of Annalise/Bonnie/Frank to be standing tall and united when the series ultimately ends.

I think Velez will be instrumental in AK getting her job back. I do agree Meggy & Simon appear to have been useless. I think  we are to believe that Laurel's dad is behind all of the attempts to destroy AK's career. I kinda of think Atwood is gone for good.

2 hours ago, Layne said:

Why did she call Wes to her house at 4pm and Laurel and Connor there at 9pm? And why wasn't she at home either time? 

Also what was the point of having Oliver hack the DA at 9pm on murder night? When he hacked the DA again for Bonnie a few days later, he seemed shocked to see what they were all being investigated for. 

She called them all at the same time. Laurel went to try and get Asher, Connor was busy sexing Thomas. AK met with Oliver first at the computer lab. He was looking for 2 different things when he hacked for AK the first time versus when he jacked for Bonnie.

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Wait, did I miss something? Was there some indication that Dominic is gay?

I got an impression he was gay. It felt like he kind of fake flirting with Denver when they met in the car.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Milaxx

[starri]

I also got a hearty chuckle about the freaked out Oliver on the phone with the cops saying that he and Connor do "gay stuff with [their] penises."

I have to remember to use that in conversation.

2 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I got an impression he was gay. It felt like he kind of fake flirting with Denver when they met in the car.

Same.

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, iheartET said:

13) Ana to Mrs. Mahoney: "A black boy that he could never love."  Actually he is biracial, being that Wes mother was black and father white.

Yet in the eyes of society most biracial children are viewed as black. This is not a hard and fast rule since many biracial people do indeed embrace all sides of their heritage. However in this instance I think was AK was talking about was the fact that this high society family might not take well to having a Black child in the bloodline. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

I watch this late at night with twitter so I always need a rewatch and no way could I post about this from my phone. Everyone has covered most of this but I think whatever prompted Laurel's dad to to kill Wes has something to do with that paper she signed earlier this season. I can't even begin to guess how or why I I have a suspicion that Charles is somehow in cahoots with him.

Laurel playing the weeping widow well and truly worked my last nerve. 

LOVED the desk cop that took the missing person's report on Connor from Micheala & Oliver.  Please give that actress a bigger part. She was hilarious!

Slow clap to both Viola Davis and Jack Falahee. They were the stars if this finale. Viola's  owning her alcoholism and finally working through the death of her baby and Wes's death was well done. It was little things like attending meetings at a place where she would not see Hargrove, the fact that  she appeared to be regular with this group, and opting for soda water when she meet with Sylvia. It was a nice touch to have her go back and get that picture of baby Sam. Jack's portrayal of Connor made me really want more family background info on him.  AK read him just right. I hope they found out that the ME lied so Connor can stop feeling guilty about accidentally killing Wes. I'm pretty sure whatever was in that syringe that Dominick injected him with id more harm than incorrectly administered CPR.

Where did Nate get that red leather jacket? All I could think was he was wearing AK's season 1 red leather and everytime I saw him in it, I chuckled.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Milaxx

[Happytobehere]

2 hours ago, Deanie87 said:

Speaking of which, when Annalise was confessing everything at AA, I totally expected (read: wanted) for someone to ask what her "son's" name was and for her to say Frank.  Of course, that is completely impossible for many reasons, but I kept waiting for it*.  Just like I keep waiting for Michaela and Conner to hook up, even though I realize that is just another of my pipe dreams.  I did love the Oliver/Connor reunion scene, but for the life of me, I just can't understand what any grown woman could possibly see in Asher, much less Michaela and Bonnie, who have LIVED a life, for god sake.  Also, hello hot sex scene between Conner and Rando Gay Oliver hookup.  That's something to turn back in for, I guess.

Well, this is a show run by Shonda people and Frank does seem to view Annalise as his Mommy, right down to temper tantrum behavior (taking money to plant the bug when she Annalise's him); intense dislike for and hostility to Mommy's favorite (see his dislike of Wes which predates the Laurel thing); attempting to make himself look good at the expense of the favored child, which naturally backfires, because if favored child is hurt, Mommy will be furious (see killing Mahoney to make up for fall out from temper tantrum, but foolishly setting Wes up as the prime suspect): and desire for approval from Mommy at all cost (setting up Mahoney Jr. to clear Wes's name, offering to kill himself for her, confessing to a murder to try to get her off the hook; bowing down befor Annalise and begging to be taken back no matter what he has to do to please her).  

Would you really be shocked to the core if the show found a way to tell us that Annalise's difficulty with conceiving and carrying a child to term was some never mentioned sexual encounter (regardless of the nature of the encounter) that resulted in a pregnancy and a baby Annalise had to give away because she was too young to have her life side-lined by a child.  The show will reveal that that child is Frank and either his father was white (thus explaining his lack of melanin) or saying he is what is referred to as a throwback child (a child whose racial appearance reflects that of an ancestor from way back). Nowalk and company will say that Annalise sensed this somehow and this is way she allowed Frank to remain in her life and didn't have her "investigator" kill Frank when he was asking her about it. After all, this is the show currently selling us on any number of completely ridiculous stories.

3 hours ago, Layne said:

Why did she call Wes to her house at 4pm and Laurel and Connor there at 9pm? And why wasn't she at home either time? 

Also what was the point of having Oliver hack the DA at 9pm on murder night? When he hacked the DA again for Bonnie a few days later, he seemed shocked to see what they were all being investigated for. 

You could be right about the discrepancies because well...show and ...plot and...retconning, but

1) Her calling Wes to the house was not that big a deal because he was frequently there when the others weren't just based on the nature of their connection.  It was obviously accepted among the K5 that Wes was the favored child. Also, if she is looking to protect anyone Wes would be first not just because of this relationship, but because Wes is the one who actually killed Sam and with Connor being a whiney brat, as per his MO, and always making threats to turn everyone in, it would make sense that she would make sure Wes was taken are of first.

2) Remember her drunken stupor of that night where she decided to walk away from it all since her life was falling apart once again and the team was being investigated, yet again.  She reaches out to Wes first, doesn't hear from him because he is with the police.  She gets drunk, leaves the house because she has decided to walk away.  She sobers up, calls the others and because the house is also her base of business, tells them to meet her there and heads back to the house herself.  Oliver not knowing isn't a problem because a this point, Oliver doesn't know the K5 dirt and might not be privy to this knowledge since, if I'm not misremembering, Nate was the one to hip Annalise to the investigation.

[Fable]

4 hours ago, Layne said:

Laurel is really out for a vengeance. I buy that they were in love- they were together for months and just because we didn't see it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't true.

Agreed.  They have been close for a long time, and I don't see why that affection could not have transferred into love once they hooked up.  

[love2lovebadtv]

9 hours ago, Inquiry said:

I'm sorry, but I really don't follow your logic. Laurel's comment did not stem from homophobia, it was rooted in her grief and Conner's general assholish behavior. The fact that suicide rates are high among LGBTQ is horrible and we should do everything we can to rectify that, but Laurel's comment had absolutely zero to do with Conner being gay.  

I don't follow this either. Her telling him that had everything to do with Wes. I think Laurel would have said that to anyone she thought had killed Wes. 

[Kimmel77]

7 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

YMMV but I bought S2's ending and that may be because I had it figured out two episodes before the finale. I thought it was perfectly believable that Caleb was a sociopath who killed his parents and then saw a way to make Catherine take the fall, so he would be the sole inheritor of their money. There are plenty of real life murder stories of children murdering their parents and family for inheritance money. 

I had no problem with him being the killer. In fact, I always knew one of the two were guilty from the outset, but I still felt it was poorly portrayed on-screen. Especially the final episode which felt like a quick rush to make it all make sense. (Same goes for season three's finale.)

[KeiEsz]

7 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Loved him in American Crime Season 2!

Thanks for bring that up, Nutty1.  I felt deja vu watching this actor playing Denver, and I couldn't place where I had seen him before.  

[Grace19]

First, I have to call bullshit on Michaela's statement about being friends with Conner and their having each other backs, in three season I have not seen that, I wish the writers will stop forcing Michaela to be the black best friend to Conner, its not believable and its starting to piss me off.

The scene with Laurel blaming Conner was a great scene; I felt a little bad for Connor.

Oh I take it back, “all your sons are dead”, God I hate Connor, Annalise should have bitch slapped him like she did that pervert.  But, that was another great scene.

So, the son is Wes’ dad, I guess he doesn't age.

Yes, Oliver, we get that you love Conner, but he makes it easy for people to hate him. I found it funny that after Oliver complained about the group not caring enough about Conner that Asher's reaction was to start eating.

I hate that they are blaming everything on Wes, it’s not fair, the way they keep blaming him for Sam's murder is awful, he was saving Rebeca from a murderer. It’s like the writers decided to listen to Wes haters that blame Wes for everything. How could Annalise even do this to Wes? Laurel is right, no one would want to be remembered as a murderer.

I hope that meeting with Mahony Jr. is not going to put Michaela in danger next season.

[Grace19]

20 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

It's not just that they killed Wes with what appears to be no real game plan, motivation or plot, it's that I now can no longer even offer a passable level of support for Annalise.  She loved Wes "like a son," but she not only threw him under the bus with the quickness, but she did it to save herself and that worthless piece of crap, Connor, who I personally wouldn't open a stick of gum for.  By episode's end, I officially can't stand him or Oliver and the worst thing that can happen to either of them is to be saddled with the scummy awefullness that is the other.

Thank you, this pissed me off.
 

[Aquarius97]

I was expecting a dead boy in the end of the episode, just as in S1 and S2 with Rebecca and Mahoney Sr

[Grace19]

17 hours ago, maraleia said:

Laurel telling Connor to kill himself was homophobic because of the high suicide rates among LGBTQ people

what? how was that homophobic, she didn't tell him to kill himself because he was gay? I get a lot of people love Connor because he is a gay character and we don't have much of that on TV, but the length people go to defend him even when he is being despicable surprises me. Let any other character do half of what Conner dose and see people label him/her the worse. Wes with everything that has happened to him, get little sympathy from viewers, but most people make excuses for Connor and go out of their way trying to understand him while Wes, Michaela and Asher hardly get any of that. 
 

[Grace19]

I know we were supposed to feel relief when Conner walked through the door, I did not care, I wish they would just elope and go get married off screen, coliver is so boring and does not make sense anyway you slice it. Thank God I still have Michaela/Asher, the only relationship that is realistic on this show.

Aww, Frank is back and the murder twins and their mother are reunited together again, lol. Not going to lie, it warmed my heart to see these crazy people together again.

Wes murder was one of the most brutal thing I have ever watched on TV.  I'm so pissed, but what really gets me is that it was all for nothing, nothing more than for shock value. Some stupid killer killed him, for what exactly? Laurel's dad is a racist or what? The writers were all just making it up as they go, they choose Wes because people were complaining about him, nothing more.

I like Laurel, but if this story line is anything to go by, it's going to be the Laurel show next season, that does not excite me in anyway, I wish Pete Nowalk cared about Michaela at all, they just keep shitting on her storyline, I wish Aja could get a better show where she can shine.

This season has been a huge letdown, it started so well but along the way it got so pointless. All the build up on Wes back-story to just kill him off, all the build up to who killed Wes for it to turn out to be Laurel's dad and a killer we care nothing about.

[Coxfires]

I don't mind Annalise pining it all on Wes at all. I mean, Alfred Enoch is freaking adorable, but Wes wasn't a white angel either. He did kill Sam and cover it up. He did shoot Annalise over Rebecca and was about to kill her if she hadn't called him Christophe, and though I understand Laurel loved him, he wasn't better than any of the rest of the bunch. LI always loved Laurel but here she irked me a bit. And yes, Wes is dead, so if, at this point, Annalise ternishes his image but lets all of the others off the hook, I don't mind at all. After all she orchestrated Sam's murder cover up and involved them into it to protect Wes, so I'm fine with it.

And I also don't mind Connor being whiny, or lost or contradictory in his actions, because not everyone is cold blooded as Laurel is, not everyone is bordering psycho as Bonnie and Frank. Of all of them, I find him to be the most realistically unhinged by the situations they are in, and the body count that surronds them all. I get being torn between guilt and self-preservation. I get loathing yourself for being a coward when it comes to make the right decision (like going to the cops), and I understand how being conflicted makes you lash out at everyone esle. His reactions are the ones I feel are the least "TV-esque", and that is because of all these flaws that I really like the character. Some of our resentments and feelings aren't always rational, or are rooted in cowardice and denial/deflection, and I feel this is really well portrayed through Connor.

As for the rest, the mystery and all that jazz, the show has always been OTT, so I really don't care, it usually makes little sense anyway, but the actors keep me engaged in it. Since I don't put too much effort iin it, this finale satisfied me. I liked that there were lots of quiet moments, a glimpse of introspection into Michaela's feelings and finally Annalise acknowledging and wording her grief over Wes' detah. I don't think he is his son at all, but I get that she transferred her maternal instincts on him after the stillborn. 

[Panopticon]

8 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Where did Nate get that red leather jacket? All I could think was he was wearing AK's season 1 red leather and everytime I saw him in it, I chuckled.

Hee. My thought was that he'd snuck over to Once Upon a Time and borrowed Emma Swan's red leather jacket. Yours makes more sense. :)

[Happytobehere]

2 hours ago, Grace19 said:

what? how was that homophobic, she didn't tell him to kill himself because he was gay? I get a lot of people love Connor because he is a gay character and we don't have much of that on TV, but the length people go to defend him even when he is being despicable surprises me. Let any other character do half of what Conner dose and see people label him/her the worse. Wes with everything that has happened to him, get little sympathy from viewers, but most people make excuses for Connor and go out of their way trying to understand him while Wes, Michaela and Asher hardly get any of that. 
 

This.  The Connor apologists can always find a reason he is a poor, misunderstood victim, rather than the despicable person he has been shown to be, time and time again; yet Wes, Michaela, Annalise and pretty much anyone who isn't Connor or Oliver are the real problems.

[Tiger]

11 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Wait, did I miss something? Was there some indication that Dominic is gay?

As Superstore's Glenn said this week, "anybody could be gay."  

Someone upthread (sorry, cant find that post) was speculating that Dominic will hook up with Connor next season.  

[truthaboutluv]

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

First, I have to call bullshit on Michaela's statement about being friends with Conner and their having each other backs, in three season I have not seen that, I wish the writers will stop forcing Michaela to be the black best friend to Conner, its not believable and its starting to piss me off.

YMMV but they have been showing this since the show returned from the mid-season finale in Season 1. Yes the show started with them in an antagonistic relationship and there was the whole finding out Connor had a relationship with her fiance when they went to boarding school. But after Sam's death, the 4 involved (because Asher wasn't involved in any of this yet) clearly drew their lines - Laurel and Wes were loyal to each other and Connor and Michaela gravitated towards each other. 

I admit I found it sudden considering how their relationship started and I suspect it was in response to some viewers who were shipping the characters (re-read the first season thread. There were many who thought they had amazing sexual chemistry but Nowalk made it clear that Connor is gay period and so that's not happening) but I think Jack and Aja's real life friendship has made it work. It's not over the top but there have been glimpses and moments since that first season that show them to be best friends who have each other's backs, e.g. in S2, after Connor walked away when Annalise was trying to get them to shoot her and Michaela ran outside emotional and screaming for him to not leave her. 

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I hate that they are blaming everything on Wes, it’s not fair, the way they keep blaming him for Sam's murder is awful, he was saving Rebeca from a murderer.

But self-defense or not, he DID kill him. The same way some feel about Connor and feel some are "apologists" for him (and for the record, I don't apologize for Connor because I don't think he's done anything that needs apologizing. Yeah he's rude and an asshole and mean in his comments. But other people have killed people, so whatever...) is the same for some are regarding Wes. 

I never hated Wes but the fact is Wes was the one who demanded, practically stamped his foot and held his breath so Annalise would take the toad Rebecca's case. Then he convinced Connor and Laurel that she was in danger, they got to the house and he ended up murdering Sam. Self-defense sure but he still did it. 

And then he later acted on Annalise's orders and manipulated the others into disposing the body because let's be clear, that is what he did - from the lying about the coin toss, not telling them about Annalise, etc. Yes, they could have all gone to the police at any time but it is not some affront against Wes to say he murdered Sam because he did. 

And on top of that he had no issues having Nate take the fall. And instead in S2 he was incredibly obnoxious and pissy regarding Rebecca AGAIN. Yes, she really was murdered but considering all the shit Annalise had done for him when he again was the one who killed Sam, he was incredibly out of line a bunch of times to her. People talk about Connor, how much shit did Wes say to Annalise at other points and he was incredibly self righteous at other times as well. 

And that's not even mentioning his shooting Annalise. Oh and the person who was trying to stop the bleeding and save Annalise then, Connor, until the other three - Wes, Laurel and Michaela - all convinced him that they had to leave.

3 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Let any other character do half of what Conner dose and see people label him/her the worse.

But that's just it, in my opinion, WHAT has Connor done exactly? Be whiny and an asshole to people? Well gee how many times has Annalise been an asshole to others or all of these people to each other? Everyone mentions the awful things the students have said to Annalise but let's not pretend Annalise hasn't been horrible and awful to many people. 

What about Bonnie telling Annalise she should have died instead of Sam, Annalise telling Frank to shoot himself when he had a gun to his head, her many horrible comments to Nate and hell, her many horrible comments to some of the students. Annalise is someone who knows the perfect button to hit for every one of these people. But Connor is a monster for simply making no secret of the fact that he hates her and more than likely hated Wes?

When we have Murderers Inc. - Bonnie, Frank and Asher and Annalise who emotionally manipulates people all the time, etc? I may be no fan of Oliver's anymore but he was absolutely right when he told them that they've all done awful things and asked him to believe in them and trust that they had their reasons, so who were they to act like Connor is so awful. 

YMMV but in a show where these characters have done such awful, fucked up things - Rebecca, Lila, Sinclair, Catherine who is rotting in jail (I won't mention Sam because he was awful and got what he deserved) - I refuse to see Connor as some huge monster because he's whiny and bitter and hates Annalise. 

Quote

As Superstore's Glenn said this week, "anybody could be gay."  

Someone upthread (sorry, cant find that post) was speculating that Dominic will hook up with Connor next season.  

So before this becomes a "thing" like I see some were clearly trying to make it, I only asked because the way it was being discussed I thought I had missed a moment that hinted or indicated this was even a possibility. Not the guy being gay but any hookup with Connor.

A lot happened in the finale, I thought maybe I missed something so that's why I asked. So some can put the claws back in now (not referring to you Tiger).

Edited February 25, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Coxfires]

@truthaboutluv Amen to all that post. I don't excuse Connor, but when his worst offence is saying insensitive things while 3/4 of the characters have murdered people, calling him the worst makes me roll my eyes.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Coxfires

[Tiger]

52 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

This.  The Connor apologists can always find a reason he is a poor, misunderstood victim, rather than the despicable person he has been shown to be, time and time again; yet Wes, Michaela, Annalise and pretty much anyone who isn't Connor or Oliver are the real problems.

First, I vehemently disagree with the above, and agree 100% with the two posts above mine re Connor.  

I'm not going to re-hash what has already been argued above, because what it comes down to at the end of the day is that Connor and Mickey are the only two who have not only shown remorse period but shown it consistently, yet they are the only two who have absolutely no responsiblity for everything that has happened.  

In fact, I would argue that on a show full of antiheroes and true villains, Connor is the hero with him trying to save Annalise in season 2 and Wes this year as exhibits A & B. 

[darkestboy]

I liked the finale. Yeah, it was a bit convenient to have Laurel's father order a hit on her boyfriend, have Wes die by the guy's hand and then for the guy to be an old family friend but I have they're going to go somewhere interesting with this next season though.

Charles being Wes's father instead of Wallace though. Did he get involved with Rose when he was in his teens or something? That one threw me as much as it clearly did Annalise to be honest.

I don't like that everything was blamed on Wes in order to get Annalise and Frank free but I can see why they went that route though. Denvers is clearly going to be an ongoing threat next season.

Some excellent Connor moments throughout the two episodes though - loved the flashbacks, interrogation scenes, the confrontation with Annalise and the proposal from Oliver as well.

I also liked Michaela and Asher admitting that they loved each other too, 9/10

[Blue Plastic]

3 hours ago, Panopticon said:

Hee. My thought was that he'd snuck over to Once Upon a Time and borrowed Emma Swan's red leather jacket. Yours makes more sense. :)

That's what I thought too!

I don't understand why Wes was so conciliatory toward Annalise on the message he left for her about not wanting her to take the fall for Sam and Rebecca.  Well, he's the one that killed Sam, but I thought he'd be furious that Rebecca was dead (not just run away) and Annalise knew about it.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Well, he's the one that killed Sam, but I thought he'd be furious that Rebecca was dead (not just run away) and Annalise knew about it.

Yeah, at the very least, I thought he'd be a lot more frantic about getting answers from her about what happened to Rebecca. I guess he was loyal to Annalise to the very end.

[helenamonster]

On 2/23/2017 at 11:03 PM, jvr said:

I'll take this as a partial victory...Laurel indirectly...by accident...killed Wes...by being in a relationship with him. Close enough. She did it (unintentionally)!

Lmao this was literally me. "Someone with Castillo blood was involved in Wes's murder so...I was pretty much right on the money!"

I noticed Esai Morales in the opening credits of the second episode and the longer it took for him to show up, the more I was convinced he was involved and we wouldn't see him until the reveal at the end. So I did "call" this twist too, just only 30 minutes before the end of the season.

I'm still not sure why Papa Castillo murdered Wes. I feel like just because he was Laurel's boyfriend for all of five minutes isn't enough. Having Dominic screw up by simply sending him after Laurel's boyfriend (meaning Frank) and having him kill Wes instead is just a little too nihilistic for me, even with this show. I'd be okay with the show getting to that point eventually but right now is a little too soon.

I also agree with everyone who said Wes's death was hard to watch. Between him, Lila, and Rebecca...can we just put a moratorium on deaths by asphyxiation for this show? All three of them have given me the heebie jeebies. At least Sam and Sinclair were quick.

At first I thought Dominic was going to be Laurel's brother who had some shady business going on in Venezuela. I was surprised when she introduced him as a family friend.

I started entertaining the notion that the Castillos and Mahoneys are involved with one another in some way, and then, as always happens when I think about this show for too long, I started constructing this vast conspiracy where Annalise had some kind of involvement with all of the K5's families prior to their acceptance at Middleton, and in fact managed to get them all into Middleton (Wes had to go on the waitlist because the school just could not justify bringing him in ahead of other applicants who were much more qualified, but then when someone declined an acceptance Annalise fought to get him right in) with the intention of building her last little intern cohort and using them, one by one, as the patsies for all her future illegal activities. I haven't thought this speculation out completely so I'm sure there's plenty of holes in it, but I kinda really want it.

On 2/23/2017 at 11:13 PM, Snickerdoodle said:

I don't watch this show regularly...and really I love to hate this show.  But everytime I watch Annalise  says, "I'm doing this for you!"  Every.time.  She's only known those kids for 3 years or so when they walked into her class.  Why is she doing this for them?  What exactly is she doing?  Getting them into more trouble? Ugh. *rolls eyes like Laurel*

Not even three years, it's only been a year and a half (not even three semesters, they haven't finished this current one yet).

On 2/23/2017 at 11:37 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I forgot to say how I laughed out loud when Frank literally bowed down to Annalise. The only thing missing was Annalise sticking out her hand so he could kiss her ring. As someone on Twitter said, Frank is so dramatic.

That reminded me of the scene from S1 where Bonnie was literally crawling on the ground, begging Annalise to forgive her. I love when this show gets all Godfather with the three of them.

On 2/24/2017 at 1:47 AM, possibilities said:

Why did Laurel need Michaela to lure Mahoney? Couldn't Laurel do it herself?

I was thinking that too, but then I realized that Michaela is just better at that kind of thing. Laurel's an excellent liar, but she doesn't have the sexual confidence or allure that we've seen with Michaela. Anytime we've seen Michaela in a flirtatious or sexual situation, she's always been very self-assured. We haven't seen that with Laurel, and it's not something that's easy to fake. I tried picturing her trying to lure Mahoney and I just couldn't see it working. Laurel is not warm, friendly, or flirtatious. She's shy and closed-off in a way that's almost anti-social at times. I doubt Charles would buy her a drink, much less offer to take her back to his place.

13 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Where did Nate get that red leather jacket? All I could think was he was wearing AK's season 1 red leather and everytime I saw him in it, I chuckled.

Hah, I forgot about Annalise's leather jacket, but I did think it was a pretty, uh, bold fashion choice for a character that's usually so lowkey.

Biggest laugh of the episode for me:

Annalise: You're deflecting.
Connor: No I'm not, you are.

I think Denver (and the whole DA's office) has had it out for Annalise since Sinclair's murder. Denver never bought the story about Catherine Hapstall going on some kind of rampage, and I think his resentment for Annalise has just continued to fester as she continues to get away with, well, murder. I think the police department and the university are sick of her shit too, so they didn't mind joining in the frame-up/defamation job. I agree with people (and I mentioned something similar in an earlier episode thread) that wouldn't mind someone (ADA, cop, university professor, etc.) who would try to take down Annalise and Co. in a moral way, using the abundance of circumstantial evidence that already points to them, instead of becoming just as corrupt as our beloved protagonists are. But perhaps that's something that'll be saved for when this show is eventually winding down.

Annalise taking advantage of Wes's death to pin both Sam's and (more egregiously) Rebecca's murders on him is the sort of deliciously awful thing that makes this show worthwhile for me. She may have loved him like a son (more on that below) but she is always looking out for #1 first and foremost. My only thing is...if they're pinning Rebecca's murder on Wes, doesn't that signal to the K4 that either Annalise killed Rebecca or she knows who did and she's covering it up? Or is she spinning it that if they let Dead Wes take the fall, then no one will come after them for Rebecca's murder anymore, even if the real killer is still out there? Either way, I guess they needed that particular slate wiped clean eventually so that they could move forward, or else it all just becomes a little much.

I am a little ticked at this show for the wording they chose in this episode's final scene. I thought the scene was fantastic, and I loved Annalise finally admitting that Wes was, for all intents and purposes, her son. She lost her biological son the same day Wes lost his mother. Even with Wes's death, she will never be able to separate those two events in her emotions. However, the wording just stirred up that damn speculation that she is his biological mother and uggghhhh I thought we had put that to bed.

Speaking of Wes's biological parents, kudos to the peeps back in S2 who predicted Charles would be Wes's father. As for the age of the actor...when we first saw Charles, it was in the "10 years ago" flashback, and since this show is written on the fly, they might not have planned to bring him back in the future. As I see it, Charles was in his early thirties when he was on trial for his fiance's murder, which would put him in his early forties now and early twenties/late teens when he (presumably) raped Rose. Maybe he was underage, and that was just another reason Rose never went to the police. Not only was she afraid of being deported, but a minor raping an adult can be very complicated legal territory, because a competent defense attorney could argue that it, due to Charles's minor status, it was actually Rose who raped him.

I did love seeing the actor who plays little Christophe again. His resemblance to Alfie is uncanny, especially in his mannerisms and speaking style. Like, if I didn't know better, I'd think this show was pulling some kind of Boyhood nonsense.

Going back to Annalise's motherly love for Wes...Laurel's gonna carry that little fucker to term, isn't she? And it's gonna be a boy, Wes Jr., and Annalise is finally, in some way, whether she adopts it or just supports Laurel, going to get her third chance at motherhood. I'm...not looking forward to that. And I don't want my favorite character Laurel (who was annoying this episode but I don't care, she's been my favorite since day one) sidelined with a kid for the rest of the show's run.

[tvfanatic13]

16 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Why are there spoiler tags in a thread about the episode it is supposedly spoiling?

I was thinking the exact same thing. Thanks Pepsinger.

[Eolivet]

Wow. Intellectually, I should've hated that. "A minor character did it!" is such a writing cop-out (and it honestly feels like the show came thisclose to making it Laurel-via-an-accident, and then chickened out at the last minute). I'd actually blocked out that it was Caleb last year, I hated that story so much -- so this was surprising that it was someone we barely knew.

But I actually loved it. The performances sold it for me. Viola Davis was incredible, as always. Much has been said about her amazing final scene, so let me give some love to the scene where she "sold Wes out" (which was intercut with his actual death). The moments the camera was on her, she had this veneer that seemed on the verge of cracking, but she plowed ahead with her story. It's hard to explain, but I was watching her eyes the whole time.  She wore this dispassionate expression as she told the story of all of Wes' bad deeds. That is acting for you. And then to contrast that to the ending scene...beautiful. Also, the scene where she looks at Laurel like she's apologizing when she realizes they have to blame Wes for everything. I, too, hope Davis comes home with the Oscar, but I hope she at least gets another shot at the Emmy, too.

And I thought Jack Falahee was terrific. I've never loved or hated Connor -- I could take him or leave him, but I loved what the show did with Connor here. I thought his acting was great during the confession scene (both to Annalise and the group) and when he was trying to revive Wes. As others pointed out "All your sons are dead" was a gut-wrenching line, and I loved the delivery. What a horrible, yet unforgettable moment. Line of the episode, up until, of course, "He was my son."

Poor Wes was a true tragic figure, to me -- as others have said, he just never caught a break in his life, right up until the end. That was so difficult to watch. Alfred Enoch was good in these last few episodes -- sometimes I think you can tell when actors are on their way out of a job, but Enoch continued to give it his all. I would've killed for one more scene with him and Davis and their strange, beautiful and completely unhealthy relationship.

I will be back in the fall, but I will miss Wes, and honestly, the show hasn't quite shown that it can function without the character (and like others, I'm not looking forward to way more Laurel in place of him). I have faith, though, that as long as Davis is at the helm, this will still be a very watchable (if not very easy-to-follow) show.

Kudos to the actors for elevating confusing, often meandering material and making it into something watchable and turning out terrific performances, week after week. These writers are very, very lucky, because this show could easily be incomprehensible. But the actors sell it, and they're getting better just by being around Davis. All of them, to me, have improved since the first season. She's the kind of performer who makes you better, I think.

::Pours one out for Wes, a la Asher::

See you in the fall!

[Artsda]

Quote

Charles Mahoney looked age appropriate to be Wes's Dad in the 10-years-ago flashbacks. 

There's like a 4 year age difference between the actors in real life, making Charle's the dad was just impossible. Wes has to be around 24-25.  Wilson looked the same  in the 10 yr flashback than he did in the present day bar scene with Michaela.  So may be the next twist is that Charles is a vampire! He doesn't age at all because he doesn't look in his 40's. If this was the plan they should have hired an older actor and not one in the same age range as the Keating 5. This twist seemed like they made it up on the fly and not planned, because when they chose Wilson for this character it looked like they were going for close in age brother of Wes. Not much older, father of Wes.

Quote

I was thinking more along the lines of Laurels dad not telling this guy the name of Laurels boyfriend which realistically makes no sense but obviously most of this doesn't.  Also, he hated Frank and didn't even know about Wes.

 

He had to know enough to have Dominic running around town. May be he had her tailed for awhile and knew a lot that was going on. From the media interviews, they knew what they were doing. It wasn't an accident they killed Wes meaning to get Frank. And we got to wait to find out the reason why.

[starri]

It strikes me as possible that Rose could have been trafficked.  Not necessarily for sex work, but for labor.

[Milaxx]

5 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I started constructing this vast conspiracy where Annalise had some kind of involvement with all of the K5's families prior to their acceptance at Middleton, and in fact managed to get them all into Middleton (Wes had to go on the waitlist because the school just could not justify bringing him in ahead of other applicants who were much more qualified, but then when someone declined an acceptance Annalise fought to get him right in) with the intention of building her last little intern cohort and using them, one by one, as the patsies for all her future illegal activities. I haven't thought this speculation out completely so I'm sure there's plenty of holes in it, but I kinda really want it.

IIRC that's not too far from the truth. AK probably did have a hand in steering Wes to Middleton. Asher & Laurel were chosen because of their family connections. As it stands Micheala & Connor appear to just be exceptionally bright and that's why they were chosen

5 hours ago, helenamonster said:

My only thing is...if they're pinning Rebecca's murder on Wes, doesn't that signal to the K4 that either Annalise killed Rebecca or she knows who did and she's covering it up? Or is she spinning it that if they let Dead Wes take the fall, then no one will come after them for Rebecca's murder anymore, even if the real killer is still out there? Either way, I guess they needed that particular slate wiped clean eventually so that they could move forward, or else it all just becomes a little much.

Oh I forgot about that. It will be a delicious moment indeed when they find out that Bonnie killed Rebecca.

3 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Poor Wes was a true tragic figure, to me -- as others have said, he just never caught a break in his life, right up until the end. That was so difficult to watch. Alfred Enoch was good in these last few episodes -- sometimes I think you can tell when actors are on their way out of a job, but Enoch continued to give it his all. I would've killed for one more scene with him and Davis and their strange, beautiful and completely unhealthy relationship.

ITA with this and the assessment of Viola & Jack's acting this episode. Especially seeing AK process and accept the death of both baby Sam & Wes. Her going back into the house to retreive that baby photo and finally opening up and speaking at AA. Powerful performance. On a positive note,depending on Alfie's availability I hope we get more flashback Wes. It wasn't until we got the flashback scenes and especially the episode where we see their marriage unraveling that I really started to like Tom Verica as Sam Keating.  I was always pretty "meh" about Alfie until this season, especially when he was Rebecca crazy in season 1. I'd love to see more of flashback Wes cause this guy I really like.

3 hours ago, Artsda said:

There's like a 4 year age difference between the actors in real life, making Charle's the dad was just impossible. Wes has to be around 24-25

Wes the character is 22. He was 12 ten years ago when his mother killed herself. Real life Charles Mahoney is 33.  It's a stretch but if the actor is playing older, it's workable. He rapes Rose at 15/16+12+10 = 37/38. It's not a stretch for a 33 year old actor to play 37. From all I can gather I think Conrad is playing younger since he's 38 in real life.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

8 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

13 hours ago, Grace19 said:

First, I have to call bullshit on Michaela's statement about being friends with Conner and their having each other backs, in three season I have not seen that, I wish the writers will stop forcing Michaela to be the black best friend to Conner, its not believable and its starting to piss me off.

YMMV but they have been showing this since the show returned from the mid-season finale in Season 1. Yes the show started with them in an antagonistic relationship and there was the whole finding out Connor had a relationship with her fiance when they went to boarding school. But after Sam's death, the 4 involved (because Asher wasn't involved in any of this yet) clearly drew their lines - Laurel and Wes were loyal to each other and Connor and Michaela gravitated towards each other. 

Agreed. I just turned on Season 2 and in the first (2nd?) episode Connor and Micheala literally high five each other in solidarity. The pairing off of the K5 started prertty much from episode when. It's always been laurel/Wes and Micheala/Connor with Asher being sort of on the fringes. Asher was brought into the fold with the Hapstals & Sinclair and Oliver was brought in this season.

 

More random thoughts;

Connor and Thomas appeared to be having quite a "*ahem* " vigorous time of it". No wonder Thomas invited Connor to go out for sushi. lol. I kinda want Oliver and Connor to at least get engaged just so they an awkwardly run into Thomas. 

I wanted to bop Laurel up side the head for yelling at Oliver not to baby him when Connor was trying to tell them what happened at the house. Is Oliver not supposed to support his boyfriend? Especially someone he's been with a whole lot longer than your minute rice relationship? 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Milaxx

[wanderingstar]

Quote

IRC that's not too far from the truth. AK probably did have a hand in steering Wes to Middleton.

I always wanted to know more about how Annalise was keeping an eye on Wes after he was put into foster care. If they do flashbacks of that, they'll have to get another young actor for tween/teen Wes.

[Aquarius97]

24 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I always wanted to know more about how Annalise was keeping an eye on Wes after he was put into foster care. If they do flashbacks of that, they'll have to get another young actor for tween/teen Wes.

Apart from the fact that AK put him out of waitlist, how did Wes paid the law school's taxes? He didn't had a job, and it's nearly impossible that he might have received a scholarship

[Milaxx]

16 minutes ago, Aquarius97 said:

Apart from the fact that AK put him out of waitlist, how did Wes paid the law school's taxes? He didn't had a job, and it's nearly impossible that he might have received a scholarship

I'm gonna assume student loans.

[SunnyBeBe]

Okay.  I agree with the review that appears on the Home page on this site.   I have been an avid viewer since day one and really thought this show had promise, but, started having concern as this season progressed. I'm not sure what it is, but, with Shonda's shows, something happens a few seasons in and I can't take it anymore.  That's now happened with HTGAWM.  The same thing happened with me and GA and Scandal.   Too much ridiculous stuff, implausible theories, twists for twist sake, etc.  TOO SHORT on really creative stuff and desperate to shock for shock value.  That's my conclusion after seeing this finale.   LOVE Viola, but, OMG, she must be embarrassed. 

So, what's the new one that Shonda has in the oven?  It might be good for a few seasons anyway.  

Edited February 26, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[secnarf]

21 hours ago, iheartET said:

 

 

 

 

 

14) Wow Frank! I can’t believe you made a deal with Devil Denver. Even if that meant turning on Ana. Smh. despite what you told Ana, we are going to have to keep our eyes open when your around.

When did this happen?
Also there is no need to spoiler tag your posts. The episode has already aired.

[denny2016]

Can someone explain to me the whole Connor going to Denver for Wes' immunity deal?

Wasn't Wes' immunity so that Wes would turn over evidence against AK? When Connor went to him, he called up the others and said he was going to tell the truth that Laurel's testimony was actually his and not to worry because he is getting immunity. So was he planning on getting immunity by selling out AK?

[wanderingstar]

Quote

 I'm not sure what it is, but, with Shonda's shows, something happens a few seasons in and I can't take it anymore.  That's now happened with HTGAWM.  The same thing happened with me and GA and Scandal.   

This is so true. I was hoping this show wouldn't go the same way as other Shondaland shows, but the second half of this season has been disjointed and lackluster. I'll watch season 4, but not with high hopes.

[Keepitmoving]

26 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

This is so true. I was hoping this show wouldn't go the same way as other Shondaland shows, but the second half of this season has been disjointed and lackluster. I'll watch season 4, but not with high hopes.

Quote

 I'm not sure what it is, but, with Shonda's shows, something happens a few seasons in and I can't take it anymore.  That's now happened with HTGAWM.  The same thing happened with me and GA and Scandal.   

 

Yes, finally someone echoing what I have posted a number of times when I say Nowalk please do not follow your mentor on .......it didn't work for me when that shit happened on Greys.  This is exactly why every now and then I bring up Shonda's patterns in my posts because I swear he's trying to bring some of that over to this show and it's not the good patterns. Not good, not good.

Note to Nowalk do not make Laurel Castillo Meredith fucking Grey, cut it out, I'm tired of her. She's all over the fucking place and getting more meat than Bonnie, who is supposed to be your lead's right hand woman.  She needs to be backed off from enough to give the other three who are in her league some more meaty material, it should be spread out evenly among the Keating-4, that meat and screen time. If you're going to have her damn father and family back ground eating up the screen for season four then you better get Brett Butler back for Michaela, or bring in sister Oddetta and her loser boyfriend Dirty Durwin, something. That family is a too much of a hot mess, there's a wealth of stuff there, tons, because what we were given was shameful. I don't want to fill in any holes by myself, I want to see it. And that monologue that Anna gave on Connor....yeah, Nowalk probably thinks that's enough. He probably considers that delving into Connor's past, and this is the shit that Shonda use to do. Hype up some big story unfolding and give you scraps, no depth, no detail, never to return again to the subject matter, horrible.  She was good for those annoying ass monologues too instead of having characters have freaking conversations, annoying and lazy IMO. It was like she just wanted to get rid of the information in one shot, get it over with.

The bulk of the rest of the screen time and meaty story needs to be given to your lead and the supporting characters that are at her level, Frank and Bonnie. Shonda had a HUGE problem with balance for this viewer, HUGE for me, I got turned off starting in season two, but I stuck around for ten damn years because the character I liked was still there and the actress was wonderful to me, like all the actors on Shondaland shows. The actors are never the problem, IMO, they are main part of the reason I stuck it out and may continue to stick it out for this one, we'll see.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, denny2016 said:

Can someone explain to me the whole Connor going to Denver for Wes' immunity deal?

Wasn't Wes' immunity so that Wes would turn over evidence against AK? When Connor went to him, he called up the others and said he was going to tell the truth that Laurel's testimony was actually his and not to worry because he is getting immunity. So was he planning on getting immunity by selling out AK?

He was going to confess that Laurel's story was his, claim Wes was dead or as good as when he found him and likely toss in the deleted phone (which he did when they threatened to charge him) . He thought there was nothing on it because Oliver missed the erased data file and thought that a was a safe way to get AK out of jail. So while he would technically sell her out, without any evidence on the phone AK would be safe and he would have immunity. What he didn't know was that Denver was crooked & that he would end up kidnapped.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

Note to Nowalk do not make Laurel Castillo Meredith fucking Grey, cut it out, I'm tired of her.

I don't think that will happen. Laurel is closer to Izzie than Meredith but without the behind the scenes stupidity. This is Viola's show. While Laurel will be let out to play (and annoy) us for a bit, I'm pretty confident that this will remain Viola's vehicle until she decides she is done with this show.

[denny2016]

25 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

He was going to confess that Laurel's story was his, claim Wes was dead or as good as when he found him and likely toss in the deleted phone (which he did when they threatened to charge him) . He thought there was nothing on it because Oliver missed the erased data file and thought that a was a safe way to get AK out of jail. So while he would technically sell her out, without any evidence on the phone AK would be safe and he would have immunity. What he didn't know was that Denver was crooked & that he would end up kidnapped.

Ah. That makes sense to me now. See, I was just confused as to why the other kids didn't freak out when he told them he was going to get immunity. They were freaked that he would possibly be charged as a suspect but no one said anything like "no, don't sell out AK" or anything like that. So in that moment, I couldn't understand why he even thought telling them he was doing it was a good idea. But you made it easier to understand.

[Milaxx]

On 2/24/2017 at 4:28 PM, twoods said:

Laurel is really out for a vengeance. I buy that they were in love- they were together for months and just because we didn't see it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't true.

They dated for a few weeks. Maaaybe a month, singular. The fire was Nov 3, school resumed in September.  Most of that time Wes was dating Meggy. Part of what makes Laurel's weeping widow act so tedious is due in large part to the quickness of this romance.

[Keepitmoving]

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I don't think that will happen. Laurel is closer to Izzie than Meredith but without the behind the scenes stupidity. This is Viola's show. While Laurel will be let out to play (and annoy) us for a bit, I'm pretty confident that this will remain Viola's vehicle until she decides she is done with this show.

Izzie? Good lord that's worse, that is the worst. Oh how I hated that character, hated. Yeah, Laurel is not even in the same ball park as Izzie, because I don't hate Laurel's character. I don't hate any of these characters and that's something Nowalk has done right. 

Edited February 26, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[possibilities]

Laurel's father killing her boyfriend is not enough motive for me. He let her stay kidnapped, he pretty much only uses her for business, I just don't see this as a satisfying story. Maybe they can sell me, but I'm not sold yet.

I think that the very early stages of a romance are often intense enough that Laurel being super grieving is not implausible. I do fine her annoying, but I have felt that way about her since the very beginning of the show.

I have been OK with Asher and Michaela til now, but I found them annoying this week. His eating, his big love declaration, her suddenly deciding she loves him in the bathroom after luring Mahoney-- I just found it annoying. I also felt that way about Oliver wanting to get married. I usually like both these couples well enough, but the gloop seemed very out of place and it annoyed me this week.

I don't think pinning Rebecca's murder on Wes implies Annalise knows who really did it. It just means she thinks she can sell Denver on the idea that Wes did it, so Denver will stop trying to pin it on her and the rest of her crew. I can't remember if she knows Bonnie did it, but whether she does or not, I don't think using Wes as a scapegoat depends on her knowing, nor that it implies to the others that she does know.

Wes's death scene was really upsetting.